Go political correctness ... jackasses

[Tsa`ah]

I'm just sick of the entire politically correct BS these days. I detest it when it is one sided.

I picked my girls up from school today and normally they are chipper little chatterboxes after school, but today my eldest girl was visibly upset.

It seems in class today they were discussing the way different cultures say hello and goodbye. Her teacher came to "Shalom" and said it's used the same way "Aloha" is used in Hawaii. To which my little girl interjected and corrected the teacher by saying it does not mean hello or goodbye. It can mean a whole bunch of things depending on how it is used. Mostly it means peace with god, unity with god, and good.

I'm not sure if the teacher was miffed because she was schooled by a 7 year old or if she, like my wife, is PMSing, but during the bathroom break when another student bid everyone a merry Christmas, my child responded with "Shabbat Shalom" and was abruptly sent to the office for the last hour or so of school.

The reasoning was that her choice of words and the context was unacceptable and could possibly offend another student.

WHAT THE FUCKING HELL?

The school will not participate in any holiday EXCEPT Christmas. They won't let the kids dress up for Halloween. They don't allow the passing of cards or candy during Valentine's. Nothing about Easter.

They will discuss other cultures, but religion is taboo.

They will have a little parade during Martin Luther King Jr. day. They plant a tree on memorial/arbor day. They will have a Christmas pageant and secret Santa party, but my kid gets punished for saying "Shabbat Shalom"?

I listened to the school's principal quote district policy and enforcement procedures and insinuate that my child is lucky she wasn't suspended for a week before I went thermal.

Was I wrong to call her a potential book burning Nazi? Was I wrong to inform her that if my child were ever singled out like that again I would have the license of her and the teacher?

Personally I think it's ridiculous to not celebrate holidays that I did in school. I also think we need to worry less about potential offenses and more about being tolerant.

This whole thing makes me sick.

[Ravenstorm]

You were certainly justified in your anger. I have four words for you:

ACLU

Ok, four letters. Seriously, some people change because they realize they were wrong. Other, and organizations, only change when they're threatened. I'm not a huge fan of the ACLU actually but they are good for this kind of thing.

If you are as outraged as you sound, take steps. Disciplining a child for 'Shabbat Shalom' is ridiculous.

Raven

[Edited on 12-16-2003 by Ravenstorm]

[Skirmisher]

Sounds like someone was trying to cover their own ass and used the current "no relgious terminology" sentiments as a shield.

They screwed up is all. Write a letter to the Bd of Ed if they don't apologize.

Idiots.

[Myrianna]

shouldn't the other kid get in trouble for merry christmas then? christmas is still a religious holiday...

[Kurili]

Raven is right, Red. ACLU! I think your daughter's response to 'Merry Christmas' was delightful. And could have opened discussions into the celebrations of Judaism at this time of year. So many GOOD things could have been done, but of course, the idiots are taking over.

I taught my kids to say "Happy Holidays" unless they were sure the other person celebrated Christmas. Just common courtesy, I thought.

I am sad about the whole thing. Hug your daughter for me.

Acolyte Kurili

[Chelle]

I think it is shameful that adults scold children for what they're brought up believing and practicing. It isn't the childrens fault at all. Adults get offended at the slightest thing these days. I swear more children act more mature.

[Artha]

ACLU - supporting the Klan since...whenever.

A decent civil lawyer could probably do anything you needed...and it wouldn't be the ACLU.

[Weedmage Princess]

I agree, Tsa'ah. I think that was absolutely uneccesary. Do what you have to do, let us know how it turns out. I hope your little girl knows she didn't do anything wrong, but that her principle and teacher are basically...schmucks ;)

Yea, Screw those queers.

Down with PC.

[Caramia]

Let's watch the queer remarks, please.

I'd go to the next school board meeting, too, and make a "federal"case out it. I'd go to the local papers. I'd go to my local City Councillor or State Representative. I'd make a huge deal out of, what with Hanukkah beginning in just a few nights.

Let us know what transpires.

[Vesi]

They did this to a seven year old? I would have gone nuts also. I don't think that 'policy' she was quick to quote was meant to brow beat little children with. I'm sure any 'policy' is probably meant more for staff to follow. I don't know. I would have been in their faces too if it were my daughter.

Go to the school board. Wouldn't hurt to call a newspaper either unless you think that would cause your daughter problems at school.

If you mess with me... watch out. If you mess with my kid... you really better watch out.

Vesi

[i remember halloween]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
You were certainly justified in your anger. I have four words for you:

ACLU

Ok, four letters. Seriously, some people change because they realize they were wrong. Other, and organizations, only change when they're threatened. I'm not a huge fan of the ACLU actually but they are good for this kind of thing.

If you are as outraged as you sound, take steps. Disciplining a child for 'Shabbat Shalom' is ridiculous.

Raven

[Edited on 12-16-2003 by Ravenstorm]


actually the ACLU is the type of place that makes the schools take the actions they did.

[Hulkein]

First, I want to point out the irony of someone being told not to say something, in a thread ranting against PC, lol.

Second, the ACLU is the reason why so many people and organizations are politically correct people, how do you not see that? Don't sue anyone, go in and give the teacher a piece of your mind. Sueing someone is the PC thing to do.

Originally posted by Caramia
Let's watch the queer remarks, please.


What the fuck? I thought we were talking about not being PC. So fuck that.

I don't care if your gay or not. Queer is queer.

Queer:
1 a : WORTHLESS, COUNTERFEIT <queer money> b : QUESTIONABLE, SUSPICIOUS
2 a : differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal b (1) : ECCENTRIC, UNCONVENTIONAL (2) : mildly insane : TOUCHED c : absorbed or interested to an extreme or unreasonable degree

[Wezas]

Originally posted by RangerD1

Originally posted by Caramia
Let's watch the queer remarks, please.


What the fuck? I thought we were talking about not being PC. So fuck that.

I don't care if your gay or not. Queer is queer.

Queer:
1 a : WORTHLESS, COUNTERFEIT <queer money> b : QUESTIONABLE, SUSPICIOUS
2 a : differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal b (1) : ECCENTRIC, UNCONVENTIONAL (2) : mildly insane : TOUCHED c : absorbed or interested to an extreme or unreasonable degree

So any comments about burnt toast would be taken well, Ranger?

So any comments about burnt toast would be taken well, Ranger?

Personally, i could care less of what you think of me. I still post shit to ben and take his racist shit in stride. Of course, like everything in this world things have context and other variables that should always be considered when determining any potential malice on a persons part.

For instance, If my friends back home say "Hey whats good nigga, lets go try and holla at some hos" I wouldn't take any offense at all.

Now if say Ben walks up and says "Hey nigger, wheres Aunt jemina" or whatever then i'd probaly punch him in the face.

If you are unable to distinguish between personal insults with a malicious intent and the use of a common word, then maybe your a little Political correct bitch.

In which case, maybe you shouldn't be reading a thread about the inadequacies of politcally correctness.

[Souzy]

Wow Tsa'ah that is a bunch of crap!!!! I'd be livid too Tsa'ah. You can say Merry Christmas but not Shabbat Shalom? WTF is that! Afer you cuss them out tell them Shabbat Shalom. I hope their christmas tree falls on them at home.

[Ravenstorm]

Yes, the ACLU. because I don't see it as being a political correctness matter.

Some kid wishing another a Merry Christmas was fine but replying with 'Shabbat Shalom' is not? That's not PC. That's discriminatory. Add in the actions they took and that it was to a seven year olf and if it was my daughter I'd want to nail their hides to a wall.

Raven

[Back]

Tsa'ah...

Time to look for another school? Thats crap.

[Bestatte]

First of all, to comment on the current derailment: There's a HUGE difference between being "politically correct" and keeping a civil tongue. Calling a man gay if he's a homosexual would be "civil" - though not politically correct. Calling a man a "queer" without even knowing if he's gay or not, and intending it as a derrogatory term to "accuse" him of being gay - is rude and unneccessary and inflammatory. And politically incorrect.

Personally I can't stand the whole PC crap. Black men aren't african-americans, unless they were either born in africa, or their parents were born in africa. And further, WHITE people born in africa who move to the states ARE African-American, and they ain't black. Or even brown. In addition, I am a Native American - because - I was born in America. That makes me native to this country. But no, I'm not a tribal american.

Now back to the topic:

First of all, if your daughter didn't say this on a Friday, she was incorrect. Shabbat is hebrew for Sabbath, which begins on Friday at sundown and ends on Saturday at sundown. Not that it matters..it's no more a religious reference to non-jews as the term "Sunday School" is to Jews when they hear a christian say it. It's only meaningful to the people who recognize it as a religious day, in otherwords, so who gives a shit if someone says it or not?

In addition...Shalom -does- mean Hello and Goodbye, and it also means Peace. It does not mean "god" in any way, shape or form. Perhaps that's how you choose to use it, but it does translate to English very nicely, and it means nothing more or less than "hello," "goodbye," and "peace."

Shabbat Shalom means, in English, "Peaceful Sabbath" - it's a wish for a happy weekend to those who don't keep the sabbath, and is considered a minor blessing for those who do.

Anyone who has a problem with your daughter using that phrase - correctly or otherwise - needs to have their head examined.

[Caramia]

It also can mean peace unto you, and may you live in the palace of peace. Granted, it is generally reserved for greetings of "peace" on Friday and Saturday evenings, but whether her use was wrong or not, it didn't deserve the reaction it got.

You might also want to enlist the local rabbis to approach both the school and the school board/district.

[Edited to change rabid rabies to rabbis.]

[Edited on 12-17-2003 by Caramia]

[HarmNone]

Oh, man. I would have been livid with rage. Both teacher and principal would have WISHED thier heads would roll!

Now, as my mother is so fond of saying: When you get really, really pissed and you want change, you need to get the rest of the world just as pissed as you are. Involve the newpapers, the television stations, the radio stations, the local police and fire stations, and anybody else you can think of. Holler and scream. Take up residence in the office of the Chairman of the school board and refuse to leave.

Is mother a rabble rouser? Umm, yep. Is she damned effective? You bet! Make noise, Tsa`ah. Lots and lots of noise!

HarmNone would probably have decked somebody :mad:

[HarmNone]

Bestatte, could you do us all a favor and refrain from educating the Jewish amongst us regarding Hebrew? Tsa'ah, I am sure, knows exactly what his daughter said, and he knows it better than you or I do.

kthx

HarmNone

[CrystalTears]

I heart HarmNone's mom (and daughter too of course). :D

[HarmNone]

Mom hearts ya right back, CT, and so do I!

HarmNone

[Vesi]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Oh, man. I would have been livid with rage. Both teacher and principal would have WISHED thier heads would roll!

Now, as my mother is so fond of saying: When you get really, really pissed and you want change, you need to get the rest of the world just as pissed as you are. Involve the newpapers, the television stations, the radio stations, the local police and fire stations, and anybody else you can think of. Holler and scream. Take up residence in the office of the Chairman of the school board and refuse to leave.

Is mother a rabble rouser? Umm, yep. Is she damned effective? You bet! Make noise, Tsa`ah. Lots and lots of noise!

HarmNone would probably have decked somebody :mad:

Seems like it rubbed off on her daughter too! I know exactly where you're coming from.

Vesi

[Tsa`ah]

As it currently stands, the better half and I will meet with the super-intendant tomorrow morning. Neither the wife nor myself are willing to involve the local Jewish community, the press, or lawyers at this point. I'm not keen on the prospect of putting my child on the spot or having her deal with the possible backlash that could result in from it.

Right now I want to hear what the administration has to say and proceed from that point. This is about my child and not social reform.


Originally posted by Bestatte
First of all, if your daughter didn't say this on a Friday, she was incorrect. Shabbat is hebrew for Sabbath, which begins on Friday at sundown and ends on Saturday at sundown. Not that it matters..it's no more a religious reference to non-jews as the term "Sunday School" is to Jews when they hear a christian say it. It's only meaningful to the people who recognize it as a religious day, in otherwords, so who gives a shit if someone says it or not?

You really don't want to get into this dance with me right now google queen.

She's 7 years old and draws her understanding of the language from my semi-Cabbalist upbringing and is in no way an expert in Hebrew. Never did I say she was absolutely correct, but she was correct in her intent.

She used the greeting EXACTLY how it was meant to be used. She wished someone a good Sabbath. Unless I am mistaken, Christmas is indeed a Sabbath day to Christians. "Shabbat Shalom" is not a greeting that is only to be used on a Sabbath day any more than matzo is only intended for pass-over.

The word "shalom" is a word that does not translate into any specific word in English. I'm not here to discuss Hebrew translations with you. I never mentioned how correct or incorrect my daughters choice of words were in my initial post


Anyone who has a problem with your daughter using that phrase - correctly or otherwise - needs to have their head examined.

This was all you had to say. The diatribe was less than necessary.

[Betheny]

It doesn't matter if she was correct or incorrect.

Merry Christmas isn't necessarily correct until it's actually Christmas, no?

All I've got to say is I hope you get it resolved and that your daughter doesn't have to be unecessarily traumatized.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
As it currently stands, the better half and I will meet with the super-intendant tomorrow morning. Neither the wife nor myself are willing to involve the local Jewish community, the press, or lawyers at this point. I'm not keen on the prospect of putting my child on the spot or having her deal with the possible backlash that could result in from it.


Heh. That is probably the kindest thing to do. Mom never considered the possible ramifications of her "displays". It is probably that which has made me the "in-your-face", often intractable, individual I am today. I love her for her indomitable will, but I have often wondered what it might have been like to grow up in a quiet, accepting environment. ;)

HarmNone hopes all works out well for you

*Edited to make a word a word*

[Edited on 12-17-2003 by HarmNone]

[Bestatte]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Bestatte, could you do us all a favor and refrain from educating the Jewish amongst us regarding Hebrew? Tsa'ah, I am sure, knows exactly what his daughter said, and he knows it better than you or I do.

kthx

HarmNone

Tsa'ah gave his definition of the phrase, thus attempting to educate those who don't know. I gave the definition I was taught - in Hebrew Class, during my own -Jewish- upbringing, so as to be sure those who were not taught understand that what Tsa'ah was taught isn't the same as what I was taught.

So if you want to decide that Tsa'ah is the only and final authority on Hebrew, go for it. But don't decide on it simply because he says so, and no one else's words matter. That would be deciding out of ignorance.

Shabbat Shalom has nothing to do with "the palace of peace" for whoever posted that, by the way. There's a hebrew word for Palace, and it isn't included in that phrase. There's also a hebrew word for "may you live" and it also is not included in that phrase.

I don't know where you folks are getting your information from. I got mine from 3 years of hebrew lessons and 18 years of Jewish education, plus an additional year and a half of working for a rabbi in the local synagogue. I don't need to google for that.

If you really want to hear the Kabbalistic explanation for the term, which explains its meaning much more succinctly, here it is:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/hlsl/shabbatshalom2.html

And so you see, it means..in very simple terms, "Peaceful/restful/tranquil Sabbath," with the Sabbath referring specifically to the day marked as the day God rested after He created the world.

[HarmNone]

I shall not involve myself further in this discussion, Bestatte. I shall leave it to Tsa`ah to clarify what HIS daughter means when she says something in Hebrew. I still think he is the resident expert on that.

HarmNone

[Drew2]

Originally posted by BestatteSo if you want to decide that Tsa'ah is the only and final authority on Hebrew, go for it. But don't decide on it simply because he says so, and no one else's words matter. That would be deciding out of ignorance.



Let me fill you in on the topic of this thread.

Tsa'ah was concerned that his daughter got in trouble for saying a religious phrase to a group of students that was decided to be possibly offensive to her peers.

NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHAT SHE SAID, HOW SHE SAID IT, WHAT IT MEANS, OR THAT YOU SPENT A YEAR AND A HALF WITH A RABBI AND ARE THE OFFICIAL CROWNED GENIUS OF HEBREW.

God damn are you really that fucking ignorant.

In the words of my mentor Bobmuhthol: Please kill yourself.

[Edited on 12-17-2003 by Tayre]

[Caramia]

You know, Bestatte, what you were taught is pretty much the basic meaning taught to most Jewish children.

Unless you're now going to add theologian to your ever-growing, lengthy laundry list of wanna-be occupations and things you consider yourself expert in, I'm giving you a link that refers to what -I- was learned a few years back, as an adult in a progressive setting.

Granted, the link doesn't translate -exactly- the way it was explained my understanding of a more progressive meaning, but in this article it's pretty damn close.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/hlsl/shabbatshalom2.html

If you were brought up Jewish, then you should know that much of what we learn is viewed as somewhat subjective, depending if you are Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox. In addition, there are more differences depending on which "tribe" you identify with. Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews are often in dispute of history, tradition, ritual, and culture.

We can't even agree on if we are a culture, religion, or race, and whether something is religiously-based, culturally-based, or plain old beshert (fate/destiny).

[Caramia]

Hah! What a great example! We both posted the same link, we both disagree on what it CAN mean.

I agree with HarmNone here, who cares what you think it means? Or what I think it means? Neither of us are experts, and please... spare us -- the three years of Hebrew training is what we all get when planning for our bar/bat mitvahs.

18 years of Jewish education? Make it twice that amount in my case, since I live it every day. It doesn't make either of us an authority, it just makes us people with opinions.

And no, you weren't offering an opinion, you flat out said his kid was wrong.

[Bestatte]

I thought the meaning of it was pretty significant, considering the reason she was given trouble by her teacher.

If that phrase meant "May you rot in the hell-pits of Satan's evil paradise you disgusting vile christian," then I'd say the teacher would've had a case to present.

If it had meant "Hey you ugly faggot Christmas-wishing dweeb, your mother sucks moose balls," then she would've had a case against the kid.

The fact that it means what it means, indicates very clearly that the teacher has no case. And further, the fact that someone wishes someone else a Merry Christmas just before she offers a "Shabbat Shalom" indicates very clearly that she has no case, because the Merry Christmas means what IT means - which is to offer a non-christian glad tidings for the celebration of a Jew who was murdered. Which could be construed as a grave insult against Tsa'ah's child.

[Moist Happenings]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I'm just sick of the entire politically correct BS these days. I detest it when it is one sided.

I picked my girls up from school today and normally they are chipper little chatterboxes after school, but today my eldest girl was visibly upset.

It seems in class today they were discussing the way different cultures say hello and goodbye. Her teacher came to "Shalom" and said it's used the same way "Aloha" is used in Hawaii. To which my little girl interjected and corrected the teacher by saying it does not mean hello or goodbye. It can mean a whole bunch of things depending on how it is used. Mostly it means peace with god, unity with god, and good.

I'm not sure if the teacher was miffed because she was schooled by a 7 year old or if she, like my wife, is PMSing, but during the bathroom break when another student bid everyone a merry Christmas, my child responded with "Shabbat Shalom" and was abruptly sent to the office for the last hour or so of school.

The reasoning was that her choice of words and the context was unacceptable and could possibly offend another student.

WHAT THE FUCKING HELL?

The school will not participate in any holiday EXCEPT Christmas. They won't let the kids dress up for Halloween. They don't allow the passing of cards or candy during Valentine's. Nothing about Easter.

They will discuss other cultures, but religion is taboo.

They will have a little parade during Martin Luther King Jr. day. They plant a tree on memorial/arbor day. They will have a Christmas pageant and secret Santa party, but my kid gets punished for saying "Shabbat Shalom"?

I listened to the school's principal quote district policy and enforcement procedures and insinuate that my child is lucky she wasn't suspended for a week before I went thermal.

Was I wrong to call her a potential book burning Nazi? Was I wrong to inform her that if my child were ever singled out like that again I would have the license of her and the teacher?

Personally I think it's ridiculous to not celebrate holidays that I did in school. I also think we need to worry less about potential offenses and more about being tolerant.

This whole thing makes me sick.

If they give you shit about it, tell them you'd like to speak with the District's counsel. Counsel will advise idiot principal to drop the matter and they will issue a letter of apology to you. With our districts, 99 percent of the school faculty have their heads up their asses 120 percent of the time, and call us daily just for us to tell them that they're fucking retards. It's how we make money. But the policy won't hold up in court. The Attorney's know that. The principal doesn't.

Additionally, I think this kind of stuff is crap. I'm far too tired to elaborate beyond that.

I apologize if this message is somewhat garbled. i'm tired.

[Adhara]

I don't think the exact meaning of her greeting is the point. Surely the teacher was not herself an expert on the hebrew language. She for sure knew that the intent was good-natured and it is outrageous that the child was scolded for it.

I'm not sure how things stand in the US right now about religion in school but Christmas is a christian reference. Unless the school is strictly christian with written rules about mention of other religions warranting disciplinary action (would that even be legal?) then it was out of line. If they really do not wish for *any* religious reference then the child mentioning Christmas should suffer the same consequences.

I think you should definitely take it to the next step Tsa`ah, whatever you decide this next step is. I agree that schools should teach tolerance, not make any religious talk taboo.

Please do keep us informed as it progresses. If you don't wish to do so in this thread, I would love to hear from you in U2U or IM.

[Meos]

just read your original post Tsa'ah. Just wondering... what grade was your girl in that this happened to?

[Edited on 12-17-2003 by Meos]

[Hulkein]

Merry Christmas

[Kurili]

HAPPY HOLIDAYS, ONE AND ALL!!

[Betheny]

Yeah... they gave us a cultural sensitivity training course at my work, which consisted of 'say happy holidays not merry christmas or anything'.

[peam]

Merry Christmas, everyone. May Jesus, Son of God Almighty, shine upon you.

/flee

[HouseofElves]

Happy Boxing Day!


Doh.

But honestly, I'll say whatever comes to mind first. I'm just an insenstive asswipe like that.

In any event, sorry that lameness went on.

[Bestatte]

One year I got sick of all the religious pamphlets the co-workers used to leave on my desk, and sent them all cards.

"Congratulations on your bris."

They were all women. I got a giggle out of it, because they had no idea what the fuck the cards were about.

[Skirmisher]

I send people cards for birthdays that are less than...."on target" shall we say.

For example thay may

A) have nothing to do with birthdays
B) be targetted at black or latino markets
C) be for an entirely different religion, sex, age etc...

I pick for funny and they get what they get.

Half the fun for me is imagining their face when they open it and think "What the hell is this?"

[Kurili]

Skirmisher, I thought I was the only one who'd do warped things like that. Fun, isnt it?

Acolyte Kurili

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Meos
just read your original post Tsa'ah. Just wondering... what grade was your girl in that this happened to?

[Edited on 12-17-2003 by Meos]

Second grade Meos.

We had a little sit down with the Super today and I think it went rather well or she just told me what I wanted to hear.

She went over the quoted policy with us and stated made it clear that it only pertained the handing out of religious materials or verbal communications with the intent to either recruit, offend, or defame. Her stance, thus far, is that disciplinary action in this case was uncalled for. We were told that both written and oral apologies would be forth coming from both teacher and principal and disciplinary action would be taken with the pair. Be it suspension or probation, but at this point termination would not be considered.

I really didn't want anyone's job over this unless our grievance was dismissed as frivolous. The wife made it clear that we were willing to pursue the matter until resolved and if that meant legal council and the media, we would do it. I just hope this put a match under their asses and district policy will be better explained.

So for now we wait a few days and see what happens.


Originally posted by Bestatte
Tsa'ah gave his definition of the phrase, thus attempting to educate those who don't know.

No Tsa`ah did not. Tsa`ah, unless I am mistaken, conveyed the words of his daughter, not the words of Tsa`ah.

In fact Tsa`ah did not have an attached commentary pertaining to his daughters usage of the words. Tsa`ah thinks you lack basic reading comprehension skills. It must be contagious.


If you really want to hear the Kabbalistic explanation for the term, which explains its meaning much more succinctly, here it is:

Exchange "the" for an "a" in the phrase "If you really want to hear the Kabbalistic explanation for the term" and the comment will hold more weight.


And so you see, it means..in very simple terms, "Peaceful/restful/tranquil Sabbath," with the Sabbath referring specifically to the day marked as the day God rested after He created the world.

You fail to point out where you believe it states the phrase "Shabbat Shalom" is only to be spoken on the sabbath.

You also fail to comment in support of my daughter's "incorrect" usage.

Do we need to point back to the thread where you showed complete ignorance over one of our most sacred of traditions?

[HarmNone]

It sounds as though the meeting went very well, Tsa`ah. I sincerely hope the follow-through will be swift and effective. Sad enough that your little girl had to be treated with such ignorance; however, if her experience can prevent another child from suffering such indignity my hat is off to her for standing up for herself!

Hell, my hat is off to her anyway! She's a spunky little girl who knows who she is and that she is as important as anyone. That will take her far...that, and a pair of outstanding and supportive parents.

Kudos to you all! :D

HarmNone

*Edited to reject a volunteer "t"*

[Edited on 12-18-2003 by HarmNone]