Rogue DS enhancing skills

[Beldonn]

question on this, my friend's a rogue and he is fixskilling because he got fubarred somewhere along and wants to re-spec his character. He can't get on PC cuz his comps down so I'll ask for him.

rogue. mid 40s. Picking/Lockpicking already maxed.

What training can he do to get max ds. Dodge is..I THINK...3 ranks = 2 DS in offensive?

What's shield use ranks in offensive? Isn't it 5 ranks for 1 in offensive? Don't quote me, I don't know =(.

Anything else that adds to the DS of a rogue?


Thanks for the help guys!

~Beldonn

[Celephais]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=26017

Depends on a few things...
Dodge DS depends on armor type and shield size, but shield ranks to DS only depend on shield size.

Offensive stance, tower shield is 0.4333 DS per rank, medium shield is 0.3333 per rank.

[Beldonn]

wow that was alot of math...tell me if i got this right...

NOT including blurs/mobility because he hunts alone up in pinefar, he nearly NEVER gets buffed so I am discluding that for him.

He currently trains 1x in armor, so he will SOMEDAY end up in full plate, but for now chainmail is the most viable for him. he has up to lockpick enhancement if that matters, though I doubt it does.

Dodge DS
Offensive Stance (0.75)
-Augmented Chain (0.920)
--Medium Shield (0.70)
--- (0.483000)
--Tower Shield (0.50)
--- (0.345000)

This leads me to believe that a buckler sized shield would be the best for DODGE DS bonuses, correct? Can you show all shield size math please? Please correct if wrong, especially if I'm right and you can provide numbers to show me.

Shield DS (0.667)
Offensive Stance (0.5)
-Medium Shield (1.0)
-- (0.3333)
-Tower Shield (1.3)
-- (0.4333)

This leads me to believe that a tower sized shield would be best for the SHIELD DS bonuses, correct? Can you show all shield size math please? Please correct if wrong, especially if I'm right and you can provide numbers to show me.

So if he's a sword-board rogue, with access to any size shield, what would be the best route? In your opinion. What would give him the largest DS in offensive to hunt with? To be honest if it differs from my personal training I may change my bard and paladin training a bit to reflect the new knowledge. Thanks for the help Celephais.

[Blushy]

I don't want to do the math right now. It's not as easy as "x amount of DS per rank". Obviously, the thing that will give you the most DS in offensive (as a rogue) is to triple in dodge, double in shield, and use a buckler. That's a lot of TPs, though. Probably the best workable DS/TP deal is to double in dodge, single in shield, and use a buckler.

Obviously, it'll be different for bards and paladins because of the differing TP costs.

[Beldonn]

actually for paladins/bards just like rogues dodge costs more than shield use purely because dodge requires physical and mental while shield is physical only

[Sthrockmorton]

actually for paladins/bards just like rogues dodge costs more than shield use purely because dodge requires physical and mental while shield is physical only

While true for most rogues, that's a blanket statement that's not always correct. Depending on your stats (TP's available) and your training path, it may be cheaper for you to use less physical points and more mental points. Making dodge the more affordable option.

[Beldonn]

Celephais hook me up with some knowledge! And Kontii don't make me bash yer rum barrel over yer head. You know what I was trying to say! :whipit: This is driving my friend to :drink: . Whatever pfft. Now I'm interested for me. Can anyone scroll up to my 2nd post and answer the math shit there please? I'm very curious. Thanks.

[Sthrockmorton]

This leads me to believe that a tower sized shield would be best for the SHIELD DS bonuses, correct? Can you show all shield size math please? Please correct if wrong, especially if I'm right and you can provide numbers to show me.

Rum is yum...

Shields DS comes straight off the website.
Shield Defense Strength (DS) bonus:

(Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5) = Base Value

Base Value * Stance Modifier * (100% + Shield Size Modifier) = DS bonus

Stance Modifier: 50% + Stance/2.

Example: In Stance Guarded (Stance = 80), the Shield DS stance modifier would be 50% + (80/2) = 90%

Modifiers
small shield - (15)% (negative modifier)

medium shield - 0%

large shield - 15%

tower shield - 30%


Hope that's what you were looking for...

[Beldonn]

you just think its manly cuz you can say its SPICED rum. There aint no pirates here sir! /grin. Just us :medieval: !

Celephais you got an IM I can contact you at to do some math with you? If so please PM or post it yo so I can harass you for a few minutes about this /duck. Thanks guys.

As for the math I've pretty much blown my head off trying to figure it out. I'll use a for-instance. My bard is in brig, probably will never leave brig until I hunt rift with him. he's got maxed shield use, and 1x dodge. He has access to like-enchant all sized shields. What should he use? 1x shield, 2x dodge with a buckler, or 2x shield 1x dodge with a tower shield? ANd the extra TP's do come into play. Can I be putting those extra TP's somewhere on the 2x shield/1x dodge, that makes up for the lack of ds if there is one? So many questions and I suck at this math shit so I'm lost. :club: Argh! :help: !!!!! Thanks guys.

[Blushy]

Post some exact levels and stats, and we'll post some exact numbers for you.

[Celephais]

Haha, sorry I was drinking all weekend... I can help you out with the exact math if you like, but all the formulas are availible on play.net ... send me a PM (I just kinda scanned this post, but I'll come back in a bit..)

[Celephais]

Dodge DS is influenced by both your (friend's) armor (Augmented chain provides an 8% penalty), and your equiped shield (Small shields provide a 20% penalty), these penalties are applied sequentially (so it's not a 28% penalty) it's actually a 26.4% penalty. Offensive stance means only 75% of your Dodge DS is applied so all together Dodging in augmented chain in offensive stance is really 55.2% (or 0.552 DS per rank).

Shield DS starts at only 2/3rds point per DS, and is then penalized 15% for small shields, and offensive stance is only 50%, for a whopping 0.283475 DS per rank.

Shields look like such:
________ Dodge__Shield Per Rank Both
Small___ 0.552___0.283475__0.835475
Medium_ 0.483___0.3335____0.8165
Large___ 0.414___0.383525__0.797525
Tower___ 0.345___0.43355___0.77855

What that means is that if you're 1/1 shield/dodge you're best off with a small shield (Ignoring EvP), since dodge is so cheap and rogues can 3x it, it only gets better to use small shields.

So nearly ever other rank of Dodge = 1DS, and nearly every 4 ranks of shield use = 1DS, if he maxes both skills he'll see 2.22 DS per level in offensive stance.

[TommyTheCat]

For oldschool Gemstone III players that have recently returned like myself dodging and DS and how all that works :(

If someone else wants to crunch some numbers..... I'm a 410ing Rogue OHE swinger.

I double in Dodge, single in shield and am currently wearing studded leathers.
I believe I have a shield that's one step below tower(I guess I should get a buckler)

How would math and DS differ(not just stance offensive but advanced, forward) if I was using different shields.

Thank you :)

-TtC

P.S. I'm level 40 currently

[Celephais]

The penalty to dodging is:
Small - 20%
Medium - 30%
Large - 40%
Tower - 50%
Dodge also is least influenced by stance... going from 75% in offensive to 100% in defensive (linear)
Since you have about 80 ranks of dodge, that means in defensive stance you get 80DS minus armor penalty (Studded is 5%), so 76DS in defensive stance... and 57 DS in offensive stance. Apply the shield penalty and you get:
Small: 46/61
Medium: 40/53
Large: 34/46

So by going to a small shield you'd gain 12 dodge ds in offensive, then there is also a flat modifier better for smaller shields (you'll see 5 or 10 I forget).

But of course you'll lose out on shield DS, something on the order of about 8 DS. Net going to buckler you'd gain 9-14 DS in offensive. Because shield DS is worse in offensive and the whole "percent penalty" nature of it... you'd likely see less gain in more defensive stance, but still a gain.

[TommyTheCat]

But in stance advanced or Forward does it lean back into Shield being the better way to go? Sorry I'm still befuddled about the math.

My tactic and thinking is more or less trying to maximize my AS(no locksmithing or even pickpocketing just as pure of a battle mage as I can be with about 67 trainings in Combat manuevers) so I can strike in 80 or 60% stances and have a representable DS as my redux is seemingly non-existent with my 10 trains in spells.

-TtC

[Celephais]

But in stance advanced or Forward does it lean back into Shield being the better way to go? Sorry I'm still befuddled about the math.

My tactic and thinking is more or less trying to maximize my AS(no locksmithing or even pickpocketing just as pure of a battle mage as I can be with about 67 trainings in Combat manuevers) so I can strike in 80 or 60% stances and have a representable DS as my redux is seemingly non-existent with my 10 trains in spells.

-TtC

Defensive stance switching large->small:
You'll gain 15 dodge DS.
You'll lose 8 shield DS
You'll gain 5/10 flat bonus

So I take back what I said, as you get more defensive it actually leans further in favor of smaller shields for you.

[TommyTheCat]

Good show thanks for breaking that down for me and the other oafs.

-TtC

[Gibreficul]

It's amazing how much a large shield will bone a character heavy in dodge training for defense. Gib uses a small shield.