Welfare Rights Committee

[Stretch]

This is fantastic. There's a group of people trying to get welfare reform repealed so that they never have to work again.

They've been 'fighting' for 14 years -- I've been staring at my monitor for the past five minutes trying to figure out what leverage they can possibly have.

http://www.welfarerightsmn.org/

Current Issues

We are opposed to the Welfare "Reform" bill signed by President Clinton in 1996, and want it repealed. Until then, we call on the state of MN and the counties to use their own money if needed to make up for the federal cuts and avoid punitive federal rules. Specifically, we are opposed to:

Time limits on welfare

Workfare in all its forms, including forced work at low wage jobs.

Limits on getting an education while we are on welfare.

All discrimination against immigrants.

Grant cuts and food stamp cuts.

Any cuts in entitlement to anti-poverty programs

[Keller]

Workfare is the answer to welfare.

If people have to decide between being assigned to work at a shitty job for welfare rights or working at a job of their choice for market rates -- which do you think they'll choose.

Fuck this group.

[Parkbandit]

Welfare needs MORE reform.. not less.

A friend of mine in the hotel business told me last week that he had this part time housekeeper that was doing an exceptional job and they wanted to put her to full time. She refused, saying that she couldn't make anymore than what she is currently making, otherwise she loses out on the subsidized housing she is currently getting from the Government. WTF!? We are PAYING people to be lazy without any reason for them to stand up on their own two feet for themselves.

We have a debt to pay to those people who CANNOT help themselves.. but we owe NOTHING to people who WON'T help themselves.

I have no time for the Won'ts in this country.

[Daniel]

Seems like she's doing. Just being smart about it.

Because, you know Rich people are above taking advantage of the system for their benefit.

[Parkbandit]

Speaking of Wont's.

:rofl:

[thefarmer]

Welfare needs MORE reform.. not less.

A friend of mine in the hotel business told me last week that he had this part time housekeeper that was doing an exceptional job and they wanted to put her to full time. She refused, saying that she couldn't make anymore than what she is currently making, otherwise she loses out on the subsidized housing she is currently getting from the Government. WTF!? We are PAYING people to be lazy without any reason for them to stand up on their own two feet for themselves.

We have a debt to pay to those people who CANNOT help themselves.. but we owe NOTHING to people who WON'T help themselves.

I have no time for the Won'ts in this country.

Was the pay raise for the housekeeper enough that she could keep her home?

If it wasn't, I don't see the issue. So she makes a few extra bucks a week, but looses out on double that to stay in her home (which is probably a Section 8 home, or something similiar).

It's not like she turned it down so she could keep that Government subsidy to keep her yacht at the docks.

[Daniel]

Speaking of Wont's.

:rofl:

Talking about yourself?

I'm probably half your age and make probably just as much as you do and have 10x the responsibility.

Try again.

[Parkbandit]

Talking about yourself?

I'm probably half your age and make probably just as much as you do and have 10x the responsibility.

Try again.


:rofl:

I highly doubt that.

[Parkbandit]

Was the pay raise for the housekeeper enough that she could keep her home?

If it wasn't, I don't see the issue. So she makes a few extra bucks a week, but looses out on double that to stay in her home (which is probably a Section 8 home, or something similiar).

It's not like she turned it down so she could keep that Government subsidy to keep her yacht at the docks.

She would go from 16 hours a week to 40 hours a week. She would then become eligible for benefits (Health, life, sick, dental, optical, bonus, etc..)

There needs to be a cattle prod type of procedure that pushes people off the hand out system and forces them to stand on their own two feet. Of course working 16 hours a week is easier than working 40. 16 hours a week shouldn't be an option.

[Stretch]

:rofl:

I highly doubt that.

Even Bill is half your age :(

[Parkbandit]

Even Bill is half your age :(

No he's not!

[Gan]

Talking about yourself?

I'm probably half your age and make probably just as much as you do and have 10x the responsibility.

Try again.

You seriously have this thing about trying to compare yourself to others here on the PC.

Have you considered professional help about this?

I mean seriously.

:spaz:

[Gan]

Welfare needs MORE reform.. not less.

We have a debt to pay to those people who CANNOT help themselves.. but we owe NOTHING to people who WON'T help themselves.

I have no time for the Won'ts in this country.

I couldnt agree more. :yes:

[TheEschaton]

You're asking a housekeeper to give up more for less. She's just being a model capitalist, and you can't blame her for that. Dumbass.

Raise her minimum wage to the point that working 40 hours a week is better than being on welfare, and there you go. You can't really lower welfare benefits without it becoming an ineffective system.

-TheE-

[thefarmer]

She would go from 16 hours a week to 40 hours a week. She would then become eligible for benefits (Health, life, sick, dental, optical, bonus, etc..)

There needs to be a cattle prod type of procedure that pushes people off the hand out system and forces them to stand on their own two feet. Of course working 16 hours a week is easier than working 40. 16 hours a week shouldn't be an option.

None of those benefits address her housing situation.

[thefarmer]

She would go from 16 hours a week to 40 hours a week. She would then become eligible for benefits (Health, life, sick, dental, optical, bonus, etc..)

There needs to be a cattle prod type of procedure that pushes people off the hand out system and forces them to stand on their own two feet. Of course working 16 hours a week is easier than working 40. 16 hours a week shouldn't be an option.

None of those benefits address her housing situation.

I would like to point out that I agree that welfare needs reform. However in this case, I don't see the problem with not taking a few dollar raise and loosing your Section8 status, and in turn your home.

EDIT:And that was supposed to have edited that last post, not put another one up. Bleah.

[Daniel]

You seriously have this thing about trying to compare yourself to others here on the PC.

Have you considered professional help about this?

I mean seriously.

:spaz:

I mean seriously,

It must be the sign of a severe mental problem to counter other people's challenges of your personal character with objective facts.

As opposed to say... making shit up, or photoshopping pictures.

I don't know what the fuck I was thinking.

[Clove]

Talking about yourself?

I'm probably half your age and make probably just as much as you do and have 10x the responsibility.

Try again.

And my dick is bigger and my dad invented Post-Its and... and...

[Daniel]

And my dick is bigger.

Sure thing buddy.

[Gan]

I mean seriously,

It must be the sign of a severe mental problem to counter other people's challenges of your personal character with objective facts.

As opposed to say... making shit up, or photoshopping pictures.

I don't know what the fuck I was thinking.

Its pretty sad when I start to prefer Back(lash)'s posts to yours.

You've run over the ledge of stupidity into the land of idiotsville.

The funny thing is nobody has made any shit up about you. Everything thats posted is from your own admissions. The photoshop was just a lark to make fun of your propensity to troll and cheerlead. I'm quite happy to say its had its due effect. Having that get under your skin has been and continues to be hillarious. Celephias summed it up quite nicely - and hence you finally go the clue and STFU in that thread.

But by all means. Continue to attempt to measure your e-peen with others here on the interwebz to make you feel like a real man. ;) And dont let that sound in the background bother you - its just us laughing at you.

[Some Rogue]

If these fuckers worked half as hard at a job as they do at not getting a job, they'd be rich.

[Daniel]

Its pretty sad when I start to prefer Back(lash)'s posts to yours.

You've run over the ledge of stupidity into the land of idiotsville.

The funny thing is nobody has made any shit up about you. Everything thats posted is from your own admissions. The photoshop was just a lark to make fun of your propensity to troll and cheerlead. I'm quite happy to say its had its due effect. Having that get under your skin has been and continues to be hillarious. Celephias summed it up quite nicely - and hence you finally go the clue and STFU in that thread.

But by all means. Continue to attempt to measure your e-peen with others here on the interwebz to make you feel like a real man. ;) And dont let that sound in the background bother you - its just us laughing at you.

Lol. You don't like my posts? awwww. That's too bad.

qq.

It must really suck to know that your posts don't mean shit to me, but please feel free to keep photoshopping pictures. As I told Celephais, I have no problem validating your online existence. God knows it's all you really have.

You, PB and the rest of the R team can keep making outlandish and uninformed claims about my sense of personal responsibility, my work ethic, and how little my penis is.

You can also post on and on about how you worked your way up, and thus know more about life and politics than liberals.

PB can keep posting about how he started by shaking out farts at the holiday inn and now makes 100k a year (zomg).

It doesn't really matter to me. You know why? Because when I walk away from the computer and go out the door I feel pretty damned good about myself.

I truly hope you can say the same thing, but the way you parade your e-importance around here I doubt it.

Remember: Internet is Serious Business <insert picture here>

[Keller]

Since when did Sig lines become the, "Here is a place I put quotes of people on the PC who've made fun of me in the past" location?

[diethx]

Since when did Sig lines become the, "Here is a place I put quotes of people on the PC who've made fun of me in the past" location?

Less of that and more lolcats plz! :D

[Tsa`ah]

Welfare needs MORE reform.. not less.

The system really needs demolished and rebuilt ... but that's another topic.


A friend of mine in the hotel business told me last week that he had this part time housekeeper that was doing an exceptional job and they wanted to put her to full time. She refused, saying that she couldn't make anymore than what she is currently making, otherwise she loses out on the subsidized housing she is currently getting from the Government. WTF!? We are PAYING people to be lazy without any reason for them to stand up on their own two feet for themselves.

Chances are that you know less about this person's situation than your friend. It's just as likely that you are oblivious to the struggles of this person and many like her ... let alone have any understanding of the disparity most of these people were born into.

Let me ask you this ...

Say you earn 10 an hour as a shit shoveler and work 20 hours a week. All of a sudden your boss comes to you and offers you 40 hours worth of work each week, no pay raise worth mentioning, and in addition you get retirement and healthcare benefits.

There are a number of catches though. Your mortgage will triple, your utilities will double, and it will cost you five times more to feed yourself. On top of that, your insurance requires a small deduction from your check, you have to fork over 20% of all health care bills now until you pay 2-3k as the deductible ... and there are things your plan won't cover because you have a few pre-existing conditions ... nor will they cover any maintenance meds prescribed for pre-existing conditions.

It gets worse from there. You were a full-time student at the jr college ... you didn't have plans to shovel shit your entire life ... or live in the hood. Now you have enough time after work to clean that shit smell off of yourself, be super dad for 20 minutes ... and then head to your part time job as a shit salesman just to make ends meet. Between a full time job shoveling shit, and a part time job selling shit .... you no longer have the time to be a full time student. As such you're disqualified from most of the assistance you were eligible for. And wouldn't you know it ... it just got worse. You're now in "the crack". You "earn" too much ... making you ineligible for some of the other programs you were counting on. Any credit you do have is bad or non-existent ... so an unsubsidized loan isn't possible.

It looks like if you take this "great" and wonderful opportunity .... you'll make some upper middle class white guy smile with pride ... and be a shit shoveler all of your life. If you don't take this job, that same white guy is going to think you're lazy and worthless.

Tough choice I'm sure.


We have a debt to pay to those people who CANNOT help themselves.. but we owe NOTHING to people who WON'T help themselves.

I have no time for the Won'ts in this country.

The irony here is that you're likely more of a "Won't" than any number of people trying to make it.

[Keller]

The system really needs demolished and rebuilt ... but that's another topic.



Chances are that you know less about this person's situation than your friend. It's just as likely that you are oblivious to the struggles of this person and many like her ... let alone have any understanding of the disparity most of these people were born into.

Let me ask you this ...

Say you earn 10 an hour as a shit shoveler and work 20 hours a week. All of a sudden your boss comes to you and offers you 40 hours worth of work each week, no pay raise worth mentioning, and in addition you get retirement and healthcare benefits.

There are a number of catches though. Your mortgage will triple, your utilities will double, and it will cost you five times more to feed yourself. On top of that, your insurance requires a small deduction from your check, you have to fork over 20% of all health care bills now until you pay 2-3k as the deductible ... and there are things your plan won't cover because you have a few pre-existing conditions ... nor will they cover any maintenance meds prescribed for pre-existing conditions.

It gets worse from there. You were a full-time student at the jr college ... you didn't have plans to shovel shit your entire life ... or live in the hood. Now you have enough time after work to clean that shit smell off of yourself, be super dad for 20 minutes ... and then head to your part time job as a shit salesman just to make ends meet. Between a full time job shoveling shit, and a part time job selling shit .... you no longer have the time to be a full time student. As such you're disqualified from most of the assistance you were eligible for. And wouldn't you know it ... it just got worse. You're now in "the crack". You "earn" too much ... making you ineligible for some of the other programs you were counting on. Any credit you do have is bad or non-existent ... so an unsubsidized loan isn't possible.

It looks like if you take this "great" and wonderful opportunity .... you'll make some upper middle class white guy smile with pride ... and be a shit shoveler all of your life. If you don't take this job, that same white guy is going to think you're lazy and worthless.

Tough choice I'm sure.



The irony here is that you're likely more of a "Won't" than any number of people trying to make it.

So what you've effectively done here is:

(1) Create a fact pattern in which a woman takes entitlement benefits and works for extra cash to help her pay for junior college books.

(2) Give her a full time job which phases her out of many of the entitlement programs she was benefiting from.

(3) Say her life went to shit.

Here is my problem:

(A) Your hypothetical heroine is the picture perfect example of why the welfare system is broken. As a taxpayer's income rises the absolute marginal rate in the phase-out range of many of these benefits is highly regressive. Not only are they losing their earned income tax credit, but also their medicare, housing benefits, etc. That highly regressive rate produces extreme distortion w/r/t the choice whether to engage in socially productive behavior (paid behavior, obviously -- I guess she could volunteer out of the goodness of her heart) because she stands to lose much more than she could possibly gain.

And PB never said he thought this woman was lazy and/or worthless, but that the system of support around her promotes unproductive behavior.

[Daniel]

I think in his first statement he acknowledged that the system has to be rebuilt.

Unfortunately, PB has said so much in the past that these people are lazy and\or worthless, and I wouldn't be surprised if he said as much now.

The problem as it stands is that when people talk about welfare reform they talk about making it harder, not easier, for people to work themselves out of a hole. These people have no concept of what it means to be down on their luck, and make shitty analogies to how they worked hard for everything they had (I think PB Uses the term, shaked farts out of sheet) and thus anyone who doesn't have what they have (100k, manager at hilton) is leeching off the system.

The point is that there are many reasons people wind up stuck in the system. Laziness is one of them, but far from inclusive to everybody.

[Parkbandit]

The system really needs demolished and rebuilt ... but that's another topic.

It looks like if you take this "great" and wonderful opportunity .... you'll make some upper middle class white guy smile with pride ... and be a shit shoveler all of your life. If you don't take this job, that same white guy is going to think you're lazy and worthless.

Tough choice I'm sure.


You are reinforcing the belief that the system is horrible and so easily taken advantage of. First and foremost.. I never said the girl was lazy.. in fact, the GM WANTS her to become fulltime because she IS a good employee.. but because of the handout system in place, it makes no financial sense for her NOT to take the full time position.

THAT is the problem.. and something a couple of you couldn't grasp. I'm not really angry at this individual.. I'm upset with a system that gives her a choice.. work 16 hours a week.. we'll take care of the rest.. or work 40 hours a week with benefits and actually lose money doing so.

It's the handout system that is fucked up in this case... rewarding someone to not stand up for themselves.

[Parkbandit]

I think in his first statement he acknowledged that the system has to be rebuilt.

Unfortunately, PB has said so much in the past that these people are lazy and\or worthless, and I wouldn't be surprised if he said as much now.

The problem as it stands is that when people talk about welfare reform they talk about making it harder, not easier, for people to work themselves out of a hole. These people have no concept of what it means to be down on their luck, and make shitty analogies to how they worked hard for everything they had (I think PB Uses the term, shaked farts out of sheet) and thus anyone who doesn't have what they have (100k, manager at hilton) is leeching off the system.

The point is that there are many reasons people wind up stuck in the system. Laziness is one of them, but far from inclusive to everybody.


Trust me.. the system caters to those lazy and worthless people.. this individual just didn't happen to be one of them from what I was told.

And you are seriously lacking any reading comprehension skills if you have taken that I believe anyone who doesn't have what I have leeches off the system or I am somehow better than they are.

I realize when you are proven wrong, you use the old adage "OMG TEH INTERNET R SERIOUS BUSINESS!" ... you may want to try that here as well.

Dumbfuck.

[Daniel]

I stand corrected.

[TheEschaton]

Then raise the minimum wage, give effective tax relief to the lower middle class. Duh. Make it worth their while to get out of welfare. Don't cut welfare drastically so they have to go from nothing to the dregs.

Edit: Because yanno what, that's when people turn to crime, when their options are so shitty.

-TheE-

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Get rid of welfare completely. Leave the government cheese and subsidized housing, but if they want a buck, make em earn it.

[Daniel]

Shouldn't you be out douching your vag right now?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Shouldn't you be out douching your vag right now?

So angry. You and Stainley should get together and hug it out.

[Parkbandit]

Then raise the minimum wage, give effective tax relief to the lower middle class. Duh. Make it worth their while to get out of welfare. Don't cut welfare drastically so they have to go from nothing to the dregs.

Edit: Because yanno what, that's when people turn to crime, when their options are so shitty.

-TheE-


Yes, because artificially inflating the minimum wage is always the answer.

:rofl:

And people don't turn to crime when their options are so shitty.. people turn to crime because they lack a moral compass and believe it's easier than actually going out and earning a living. Boo hoo, now criminals are only victims of their environment.

[TheEschaton]

You've obviously never had to make that choice.

[CrystalTears]

You've obviously never had to make that choice.
:wtf:

[Parkbandit]

You've obviously never had to make that choice.

It was never considered a choice to me.. since I have that moral compass.

I grew up poor, but never thought "Gee, if I wanted a new car, I guess I could just car jack this guy and take it. It sure would be easier than having to go out and get a job!"

[DeV]

The biggest problem with welfare reform is the fact that it isn't and has never been intelligent welfare reform. It's designed to get people off of welfare, which it has for the most part, but does nothing in the area of actually improving the situations of the people who once relied on it and its subsidies, thus creating a vicious cycle of generational lack of self reliance.

You can argue that it isn't the responsibility of the government to improve the lives of its citizens, that's fine, and I'll probably agree with you to an extent, but it certainly isn't doing anything in the area of making peoples lives more efficient and making it so they stop relying on the government to feed their children.

If you throw people off welfare and move them into low paying jobs, minimum wage at best, with most still hovering below the poverty level, with few if any benefits, in addition to the higher costs of transportaion, public and private, and add to that child care costs, what you get is a system that's pretty damn flawed on mostly all accounts. Starting with the recipient and ending with the governments shoddy patchwork.

If reform doesn't encompass training, education, and child care subsidies then we can continue expecting it to not work at all and our children's children will be detabing this very same topic years from now.

[Clove]

I've been desperate. My decision was to scour the earth for any kind of legitimate work I could find.

[CrystalTears]

Holy shit, is that the kind of lawyer you're going to be? "He was a victim of circumstance that he was forced to steal food from that store."

You have got to be shitting me with your poor criminals are victims schtick.

[Clove]

The biggest problem with welfare reform is the fact that it isn't and has never been intelligent welfare reform. It's designed to get people off of welfare, which it has for the most part, but does nothing in the area of actually improving the situations of the people who once relied on it and its subsidies, thus creating a vicious cycle of generational lack of self reliance...

x10

[Gan]

Edit: Because yanno what, that's when people turn to crime, when their options are so shitty.

-TheE-

Thats not absolute. Crime is a choice. Just as much as working is a choice.

[Clove]

Makes you wonder what caused Kenny Lay and Jeff Skilling to turn to crime?

[Parkbandit]

Holy shit, is that the kind of lawyer you're going to be? "He was a victim of circumstance that he was forced to steal food from that store."

You have got to be shitting me with your poor criminals are victims schtick.


I'm not sure why you are surprised by this at all.

[Nieninque]

Thats not absolute. Crime is a choice. Just as much as working is a choice.

I've stolen food before, when I've had no money and no other way of getting food.
Sure it was a choice, the alternative was to not eat. Not much of a choice though.

I would generally echo what Dev has said on this issue.

We are having similar debates in the UK right now with the government threatening to take houses from people who refuse to return to work...missing the point that making them homeless is not exactly going to help their return to the workforce.

[Daniel]

I've been desperate. My decision was to scour the earth for any kind of legitimate work I could find.

Since you've seen fit to put your personal life out there (omg Gan!!), can you please elaborate on what you mean by desperate?

[Clove]

...missing the point that making them homeless is not exactly going to help their return to the workforce.

Yes, but neither will removing the ordinary consequences of refusing to work for a living.

[Daniel]

It was never considered a choice to me.. since I have that moral compass.

I grew up poor.



And you are seriously lacking any reading comprehension skills if you have taken that I believe anyone who doesn't have what I have leeches off the system or I am somehow better than they are.



That didn't take long.

[Daniel]

So angry. You and Stainley should get together and hug it out.

I was just looking out for your well being buddy ;)

[Clove]

Since you've seen fit to put your personal life out there (omg Gan!!), can you please elaborate on what you mean by desperate?

Nope, you'll just have to trust that I know poverty and desperation, just like you trust my ability to add and multiply.

[Daniel]

I'll probably pass on that. Thanks though!

[Clove]

I'll probably pass on that. Thanks though!

You know that's the second time you've solicited me for personal details. I just don't dig you like that Danny-boy.

[Parkbandit]

That didn't take long.


Didn't take long for what? Seriously, you've contributed absolutely zero to yet another thread.

Grats! Must be slow today at your 10x the responsibility job.

:rofl:

[Daniel]

I'm actually at home preparing for a funeral ;) Thanks though.

[Daniel]

You know that's the second time you've solicited me for personal details. I just don't dig you like that Danny-boy.

That's the second time you've put your personal info out there in order to validate a point and backed down when asked to solidify your position.

Besides. It's probably for the best.

[CrystalTears]

But PB, you have morals. You obviously think you're better than anyone who commits a crime. I mean, you sure have the audacity to feel that way.

[CrystalTears]

That's the second time you've put your personal info out there in order to validate a point and backed down when asked to solidify your position.

Besides. It's probably for the best.
Yeah because you've never put out your personal info out there to prove a point.

[Daniel]

Nope. I've done it on numerous occasions and quite openly. I've also been blasted for it recently by Gan and the rest of the R squad.

[Clove]

That's the second time you've put your personal info out there in order to validate a point and backed down when asked to solidify your position.

Besides. It's probably for the best.

Not really in this case it was a simple statement and it doesn't really require a review of you (or anyone on the PC) to determine if "I was really poor (enough)". I'm sure you can find several documented examples of people who rose out of poverty without resorting to crime to reinforce my personal claim.

In the other case, I wasn't proving a point at all, merely offering (sarcastically) my brother's recomendation so that Blud could get into a good college-level economics program and learn something about what he was posting about (you see, it wasn't about you shocking as that is). It wasn't really an arguing point.

Suffice it to say, I'm not about to give you open access to personal information so you can satisfy yourself that I'm credible (I'm sure you already spend too much time satisfying yourself as it is). Doubt my personal claims if you like.

[Gan]

Makes you wonder what caused Kenny Lay and Jeff Skilling to turn to crime?

LOL

They were poor and desperate.

:jerkit:

[Gan]

Then raise the minimum wage, give effective tax relief to the lower middle class. Duh. Make it worth their while to get out of welfare. Don't cut welfare drastically so they have to go from nothing to the dregs.

-TheE-

I forgot to follow back up with this...

Do you even know what happens to the general market basket of goods and services when you raise minimum wage?

I thought after all of the discussions on minimum wage we've had here on the PC you would have figured it out by now.

:banghead:

[Gan]

I'll probably pass on that. Thanks though!

LOL

Someone finally challenges Daniel to a competition of who's had it worse and he backs down.

You missed your chance to shine! ZOMG!

:lol:

[Daniel]

Not really in this case it was a simple statement and it doesn't really require a review of you (or anyone on the PC) to determine if "I was really poor (enough)". I'm sure you can find several documented examples of people who rose out of poverty without resorting to crime to reinforce my personal claim.

In the other case, I wasn't proving a point at all, merely offering (sarcastically) my brother's recomendation so that Blud could get into a good college-level economics program and learn something about what he was posting about (you see, it wasn't about you shocking as that is). It wasn't really an arguing point.

Suffice it to say, I'm not about to give you open access to personal information so you can satisfy yourself that I'm credible (I'm sure you already spend too much time satisfying yourself as it is). Doubt my personal claims if you like.

Okay Buddy. No need to qualify your statements. I just accept them as fact and gospel..because well you're online persona name is Clove.

[Daniel]

LOL

Someone finally challenges Daniel to a competition of who's had it worse and he backs down.

You missed your chance to shine! ZOMG!

:lol:

Reading comprehension ftl.

[Clove]

Okay Buddy. No need to qualify your statements. I just accept them as fact and gospel..because well you're online persona name is Clove.

No, please don't accept my personal claims. It's not as if I'll return the favor.

[Daniel]

awww :( It's okay. I can prove mine.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Plx cut wellfur off plx. Let dum pplz die cuzx their dum!

[Clove]

As for qualifying my statements, I sincerely doubt you needed "details" to prove that I was poor. What you wanted was an argument. If you don't believe my statement of "I was desperate" what good are any further statements (no matter how detailed) they're still my word. You wanted something personal to pick apart about me, period.

As for solidifying what and where my youngest brother is studying, what exactly should I do to "prove it"? Give you the name of a current male post-grad econ student at Univ. Chicago? What are you going to do Danny-boy, have your mommy interview him about any brothers he has?

As creepy as Backlash is, I really think you've outdone him this time.

[CrystalTears]

U R NOT NO POOR! I SAY JOIN WELFARE IF WANT TO NO POOR!

[Daniel]

As for qualifying my statements, I sincerely doubt you needed "details" to prove that I was poor. What you wanted was an argument. If you don't believe my statement of "I was desperate" what good are any further statements (no matter how detailed) they're still my word. You wanted something personal to pick apart about me, period.

.

Actually, no. I was asking you to clarify your statements. It's one thing to say you are desperate, and it's quite another to be desperate on the scale that we are talking.

By your own admission, you graduated with at least a graduate degree from BU and your brother goes to the University of Chicago in probably *the* most selective program in the nation, if not the world.

Even if your comments themselves didn't leave room for questioning the fact that you were "desperate", the above does.

In the future, don't personalize your statements unless you are willing to back them up. Anyone can say they did A, B, C or E. That means a whole lot of nothing.

[Daniel]

U R NOT NO POOR! I SAY JOIN WELFARE IF WANT TO NO POOR!

I'm so glad to see you got the balls to talk to me again. I was missing the entertainment I got when you tried to jump into threads and got wtfpwned.

[CrystalTears]

Unlike Angela, when I'm proven wrong, I bow out as there is no point to continue. It had nothing to do with having "balls" to reply to you again. It's funny that you think my lack of answering in some topics had anything to do with you.

[Daniel]

Yes. You typing towards me, me responding, and you dissapearing had nothing to do with me.

/italics

[CrystalTears]

Nope.

[Parkbandit]

But when you lose an argument.. don't you just throw up the ol' "INTERNET R SERIOUS BUSINESS!"?

So let us get this straight.. it's only fun if you lose.. but if and when you win, it really is being serious.

check.

[Daniel]

I'm being serious?

In fact. I believe I used the word "Entertainment".

The R team is killing itself on reading comprehension today.

[Parkbandit]

Who knows. I can't tell what you are posting half the time.. let alone pull some emotion from it.

You somehow make Stanley seem less dumb... and that takes some effort.

[Daniel]

Who knows. I can't tell what you are posting half the time.. let alone pull some emotion from it.

You somehow make Stanley seem less dumb... and that takes some effort.

I'm a hard worker. What can I say.

If only everyone could make being retarded look as effortless as you do. *sigh.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Daniel, you suck. You aren't fun, you aren't "silly", nor are you even entertaining. Someone make him a 1x/day self-charger for shutting the fuck up. Lord knows he doesn't mind rubbing things he owns.

[Methais]

http://www.pasi.fi/wp-content/uploads/welfare_motivator.jpg

[Clove]

your own admission, you graduated with at least a graduate degree from BU and your brother goes to the University of Chicago in probably *the* most selective program in the nation, if not the world.

Even if your comments themselves didn't leave room for questioning the fact that you were "desperate", the above does.


I have never stated what schools I've attended or what degrees I hold.

And yes my brother is very intelligent and an excellent student; in addition to U of Chicago he was accepted by both Harvard and Princeton for his undergrad study. My middle brother and I are both educated and intelligent, but our "baby" brother outshines us both (combined).

For some reason because I mention a member of my family attends a top university that means I probably never struggled with poverty. If you're comfortable with your skeptism, good for you.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm poorer than you are.

[Clove]

I'm poorer than you are.

I hope so :P

[Daniel]

I have never stated what schools I've attended or what degrees I hold.

And yes my brother is very intelligent and an excellent student; in addition to U of Chicago he was accepted by both both Harvard and Princeton for his undergrad study. My middle brother and I are both educated and intelligent, but our "baby" brother outshines us both (combined).

For some reason because I mention a member of my family attends a top university that means I probably never struggled with poverty. If you're comfortable with your skeptism, good for you.

While you didn't overtly state anything...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=30032&highlight=Boston

As for the U of C.

I'm pretty well acquainted with the demographics. So, yes. I'd be pretty skeptical.

[Daniel]

Daniel, you suck. You aren't fun, you aren't "silly", nor are you even entertaining. Someone make him a 1x/day self-charger for shutting the fuck up. Lord knows he doesn't mind rubbing things he owns.

Okay...You are?

[Clove]

Oh you can do better than that. Here, I'll quote the conversation I had with the -E- for you.


Good to see BC students are still the whiney bitches I remember :D


What is your experience with BC anyways, Clove? ;)


Lived in Boston for 6 years?


You must be one of those Sucks-To-BU types. ;)


BU rocks.


Whiney Jesuit freak.

Granted BC has Leonard Nimoy, but BU has Martin Luther King Jr. Suck it.

[CrystalTears]

He never said he went to BU, just that he lived in Boston, and knew the kids who went to BC. You assumed.

Next.

[Daniel]

He never said he went to BU, just that he lived in Boston, and knew the kids who went to BC. You assumed.

Next.

Isn't that what I implied?

Or do you not know what "overt" means?

He's more than welcome to correct me.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Okay...You are?

Eh, a somewhat arrogant, but generally obnoxious, overindulgent idiot who is shockingly well mannered at times, and at others is easily annoyed, frustrated and/or intoxicated.

Seeing as how like 99% of that was entirely false, just call me Cory, and go back to shutting the fuck up. Kthx.

[Clove]

I'm pretty well acquainted with the demographics. So, yes. I'd be pretty skeptical.

LOLzer. Danny-boy's a profiler.

[DeV]

Clove, stop putting your baby brother's business out there.

[Gan]

Late response, I forgot that there might be a rebuttal post. LOOKS LIKE I WUZ NOT LET DOWNZ!



It must really suck to know that your posts don't mean shit to me, but please feel free to keep photoshopping pictures. As I told Celephais, I have no problem validating your online existence. God knows it's all you really have.
Yes, I hang with baited breath for every response and post you make... Like this timely response for instance. http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/icons/icon3.gif


You, PB and the rest of the R team can keep making outlandish and uninformed claims about my sense of personal responsibility, my work ethic, and how little my penis is.
Actually no, you just seem to interpret any and all remarks made in response to wild accusations, as directed to you. Delusions of persecution anyone?


You can also post on and on about how you worked your way up, and thus know more about life and politics than liberals.
Incorrect again, with respects to me. I've posted about how working your way up the ladder lends a different perspective, especially towards economics and social programs, than one who was born with a silver spoon. You incorrectly place the emphasis on the I when posting. Reading comprehension ftl.


PB can keep posting about how he started by shaking out farts at the holiday inn and now makes 100k a year (zomg).
Newsflash: I'm not PB. Direct that to him if you want your QQ to have its full effect.


It doesn't really matter to me. You know why? Because when I walk away from the computer and go out the door I feel pretty damned good about myself.
Lord I hope you dont keep this inside as you walk around and away from the interwebz. Otherwise you would be in much sadder shape than I already have an opinion of you to be.


I truly hope you can say the same thing, but the way you parade your e-importance around here I doubt it.
I dont give you a second thought when I click on that little black x at the top right of the screen. ;)


Remember: Internet is Serious Business <insert picture here>
If it werent for the entertainment value of the discussions we have with the rest of the PC - I would rarely post here unless it was related to my activity within GS.

[Warriorbird]

Man. This is like a failed argument on all sides. Now you're just bickering rather than making it meaningful.

[Stretch]

WTF, get back to bashing po' people, numbnuts.

[Clove]

I didn't miss anything, but if you want me to post my denial and your backpedalling so you look more ridiculous than you are, I can do that:


By your own admission, you graduated with at least a graduate degree from BU...


I have never stated what schools I've attended or what degrees I hold.


While you didn't overtly state anything...



He never said he went to BU, just that he lived in Boston, and knew the kids who went to BC...


Isn't that what I implied?

No.

[Gan]

awww :( It's okay. I can prove mine.

The E Peen moment brought to you by the letter


D

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

how did D come up with enough cash to sponsor that? He still owes me!

[Daniel]

Actually no, you just seem to interpret any and all remarks made in response to wild accusations, as directed to you. Delusions of persecution anyone?

Incorrect again, with respects to me. I've posted about how working your way up the ladder lends a different perspective, especially towards economics and social programs, than one who was born with a silver spoon. You incorrectly place the emphasis on the I when posting. Reading comprehension ftl.
.

Only because I don't feel like multi quoting and this is the only thing worth responding to specifically.

And as I pointed out. This is not a fact, but rather your opinion. You can only speak for *yourself* and not for anyone else who has worked themselves up the ladder.

You can go ahead and pull the I know people card, but as I pointed out in the other thread, the party that is traditionally supported by working class America is not republican.


As for the rest of the stuff: Woo!! yay! /insert cheerleading pic here.

[Daniel]

No.


Missed a quote there genius.

[Atlanteax]

Sheesh, you guys are worse than Stanley fresh out of de-tox.

[CrystalTears]

First you assumed, then you backpeddled and said you were only implying it. Whatever man.

[Daniel]

First you assumed, then you backpeddled and said you were only implying it. Whatever man.

If you can't understand the sentence I wrote before I posted the link then I don' t know what to tell you.

[Gan]

Only because I don't feel like multi quoting and this is the only thing worth responding to specifically.
Or because its not there to multi-quote.

Nice excuse though.

:lol:



And as I pointed out. This is not a fact, but rather your opinion. You can only speak for *yourself* and not for anyone else who has worked themselves up the ladder.
Are you sure about that? Are you basing that on your same premise that a person's experience in now way shapes how he thinks or acts? :lol:



You can go ahead and pull the I know people card, but as I pointed out in the other thread, the party that is traditionally supported by working class America is not republican.
The optimal word being 'work', now if you mean supported by the people who get the wool pulled over their eyes.. or the people who are easiest fooled by the populist dogma of a failed theory... Either way I disagree. ;)



As for the rest of the stuff: Woo!! yay! /insert cheerleading pic here.
yay! wooo!
:rah:

[Daniel]

Or because its not there to multi-quote.

Nice excuse though.

:lol:


Are you sure about that? Are you basing that on your same premise that a person's experience in now way shapes how he thinks or acts? :lol:


The optimal word being 'work', now if you mean supported by the people who get the wool pulled over their eyes.. or the people who are easiest fooled by the populist dogma of a failed theory... Either way I disagree. ;)


yay! wooo!
:rah:


Uh yea. I'm pretty sure that's your opinion. I'm fully aware that smoeones experiences shape how they act or think. I'm also fully aware that people take away different things from experiences. Are you suggesting otherwise?

As for the whole "wool pulled over their eyes comment". I'm so glad you finally tossed away that silly facade that you were anything other than a republican hard liner.

It's good to hear that your pussy finally healed from another republican questioning your R cred.

[Warriorbird]

Why's the "Republican team" trying so hard? Self righteousness hurt much?

[Parkbandit]

Why's the "Republican team" trying so hard? Self righteousness hurt much?


:rofl:

Jr. D member trying to earn his next merit badge?

[Warriorbird]

Uh. Junior?

Ha.

Then again... I guess everybody is junior to you.

[Keller]

I couldn't even bear with this thread long enough to make a Keller's Notes(r) to catch all of you guys up.

Sorry, you're on your own.

[Warriorbird]

Pretty much!

Here yah go, Republicans.

http://yeswecanhas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/weusedtaberepublicanz.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Here's what I've got in notes so far:

Ed: Damn these bitches for fighting to make welfare permanent!
PB: <random twice-removed anecdote of housekeeper who refuses to work more hours because it would make her lose her housing subsidy>
Me: That's just the capitalist thing to do. If you want to make it worthwhile for her to get off welfare, don't reduce welfare, increase the minimum wage.
Someone else: Categorization of poor people as probably lazy or criminals.
Me/Daniel: Uh, if you've ever been that poor, you know it's easier to resort to crime than find a legit paying job.
....
5 pages of inane bullshit about how people have superior moral compasses, how poor they were and how they didn't resort to crime, etc, etc, etc.
....
Random Gan post: debating the economics of raising the minimum wage.
.....
3 more pages of inane bullshit.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

So what you've effectively done here is:

(1) Create a fact pattern in which a woman takes entitlement benefits and works for extra cash to help her pay for junior college books.

What I have done is demonstrate that not everyone is on welfare by choice. Not everyone has the desire to remain on welfare. And most importantly I've demonstrated that it's pretty illogical to expect people to voluntarily make life harder for themselves.

I effectively outlined the position of two of my own employees. I'll miss them both terribly when they graduate, but the reality of the situation is that going full time for even a good housekeeping wage would likely result in two career welfare recipients.


(2) Give her a full time job which phases her out of many of the entitlement programs she was benefiting from.

(3) Say her life went to shit.

You effectively turn said life into shit simply because of the disparity issues.


(A) Your hypothetical heroine is the picture perfect example of why the welfare system is broken. As a taxpayer's income rises the absolute marginal rate in the phase-out range of many of these benefits is highly regressive. Not only are they losing their earned income tax credit, but also their medicare, housing benefits, etc. That highly regressive rate produces extreme distortion w/r/t the choice whether to engage in socially productive behavior (paid behavior, obviously -- I guess she could volunteer out of the goodness of her heart) because she stands to lose much more than she could possibly gain.

The welfare system is broken, but not because of scenarios such as this. This type of scenario is a picture perfect description of how our educational systems are broke .... along with many other issues.

This is a perfect example of how a welfare system provides a vehicle for people to improve upon their situation.

I would rather have 5 million US citizens on welfare if it were required that they improve their job skills and/or education using the means provided by the system. Unfortunately the current system offers absolutely no incentive to get off of it ... because the alternative is worse. If you don't see that, I think you've detached yourself from reality way to early in life for you.

I hear a number of people clamoring for more workfare, but unfortunately workfare doesn't address that. What workfare does is provide a sizeable tax credit to participating employers who don't have to pay a dime for the employment of the recipients. In fact it empowers such employers to act as judge and jury to said workfare recipients and pretty much force them into submission. In the end it doesn't really teach a thing. Now, if you want people to work for their benefits, I agree whole heartedly with that, but make the work civil in nature, not a tax credit for the fast food industry.


And PB never said he thought this woman was lazy and/or worthless, but that the system of support around her promotes unproductive behavior.

Maybe you need to read more PB posts ... something I don't think I've ever recommended.

[Sean of the Thread]

I think they need to monitor/control what food stamps are buying.

Say allow 2 lbs of king crab legs a month rather than $400 worth. Give me a fucking break. I can't believe the money wasted in this fucked up system.

[Tsa`ah]

I think they need to monitor/control what food stamps are buying.

Say allow 2 lbs of king crab legs a month rather than $400 worth. Give me a fucking break. I can't believe the money wasted in this fucked up system.

That's exactly why I said the system needs to be demolished and rebuilt. Abuse is rampant, as well as fraud.

There should be limits to what can be purchased, such as with the WIC program. There also should be a number of checks and cross references, not only within the system and between offices, but with the IRS and Social Security.

It's not uncommon for recipients to "sell" their dependency claims to someone else come tax season. It's not uncommon for recipients to claim other children (that are already being claimed by another family). It's not uncommon for recipients to get duplicate benefits each month. I've been in line at the grocery store a number of time while people dig out another link card because the first one declined.

Welfare should be a vehicle to get people and families back on their feet, but at the same time (with all of the evident abuse) it's too easy to pass judgement and classify everyone on it without knowing the situation or possibly what they're doing TO GET OFF of welfare.

Right now the alternative to welfare is destitution even if you do take a full time job.