More things Hillary doesnt want you to know

[oldanforgotten]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120277819085260827.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

Party at Ilvane's!
________
Yamaha Rd56 History (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_RD56)

[Gan]

Ahhh, the FALN clemencies.

Nothing like dirty laundry floating back up to haunt eh?

:lol:

[Clove]

That was a long time ago, she probably doesn't remember the details.

[oldanforgotten]

That was a long time ago, she probably doesn't remember the details.

True, and to a degree, this vindicates Angela. All along, people have said, she'll do anything for a vote. Kill people, free people who murder citizens, prostitute her daughter with superdelegates, and use her husband as an attack dog. And they were right. People know exactly what they will get with her.
________
Mercury meteor (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mercury_Meteor)

[Ilvane]

Oh my god..she kills people to get votes??

I've been ignoring your bullshit, but that one takes the cake.

Oh wait..Prostitutes her daughter!! Another genius statement!!!!

OMG??? What in the fuck is wrong with you?

[Sean of the Thread]

Well it's true.

And her slut daughter is all over the news today for whoring out.

[Clove]

OMG??? What in the fuck is wrong with you?

WTF is wrong with Hillary?

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/museum/flash/hindenburg.jpg

[Clove]

I think OAF point was more along the lines of she WOULD do anything for a vote.

But Dennis Miller said it best:

"And the Clintons won't shut up. If that marriage were any more about convenience, they'd have to install a Slim-Jim rack and a Slurpee machine at the base of the bed. [Hillary] jumps on every opportunity to take a shot at Bush. They have a blackout in New York, she starts blaming it on Bush. You know, this woman doesn't miss a trick – unless it's the one her old man's with on any given night."

[oldanforgotten]

Oh my god..she kills people to get votes??

I've been ignoring your bullshit, but that one takes the cake.

Oh wait..Prostitutes her daughter!! Another genius statement!!!!

OMG??? What in the fuck is wrong with you?

You're right, she hasn't actually physically murdered anyone yet, so I retract that one.

But she freed hispanic terrorists who admitted and were convicted of acts of terrorism up and including murder for some extra hispanic votes.

Her daughter absolutely is being whored out to have dinner dates with superdelegates.

And Bill Clinton admitted he was an attack dog on her behalf, but has not yet admitted that it was at her behest.

So I retract the statement that she kills people for votes, although in my mind, I believe she would. She has done the other 3.
________
VOLCANO VAPORIZER (http://twitter.com/vaporizer)

[Gan]

Vincent Foster


<CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT>

[Ilvane]

Never mind that he KILLED HIMSELF.

Oh my god, you guys are simply stupid.

Angela

[Gan]

:lol:

[Sean of the Thread]

Lol.. you're calling us stupid.


Hilarity. Pun intended.

[Ilvane]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

On the dead folks.

[Clove]

Sorry Vinnie...

http://www.naturalfamilyblog.com/Hillary%20with%20gun%20(2).jpg

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

On the dead folks.

The funniest part about you and this hilary infatuation is that she hasn't a chance and that you're clueless. They go hand in hand.. the irony makes me chuckle with every one of your shit for brains post about her.

[Ilvane]

Did you even bother to read it, asshole? Or are you just spouting another boring, yet predicible Anti-Ilvane post?

Yeah, thought so.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Yeah, thought so.>>

You didn't even give him a chance to respond...

Do you have half a brain? Or are you a major drug lord whose front is posting on a GS forum as a normal person?

Yeah, thought so.

[Gan]

<<Yeah, thought so.>>

You didn't even give him a chance to respond...

Do you have half a brain? Or are you a major drug lord whose front is posting on a GS forum as a normal person?

Yeah, thought so.

Be nice Bob.

Ilvane isnt the only one to ask/answer with the "yea though so" in the conclusion of their posts.

*This quip isnt directed to Bob - since I've never seen him use it.

[Ilvane]

I think it's pretty obvious what he's doing..I don't need his answer.:P

[CrystalTears]

I just find it funny how insistant you are that she's not tainted or corrupt in any way.

[Gan]

I think it's pretty obvious what he's doing..I don't need his answer.:P

Your rabid defense is pretty chuckle worthy though. ;)

AS WB WOULD SAY!!!

:CHUCKLE:

[Sean of the Thread]

I just find it funny how insistant you are that she's not tainted or corrupt in any way.

She's fucking retarded. Every time she posts about politics I picture this big fat fugly tard playing paddle ball in the corner making "uhh huhhh ehhh uhhh hhuuhh" noises.

[Clove]

Paddle ball at Ilvanes!

[Ilvane]

I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too.

I just don't believe in using "swiftboat" tactics to attack politicians. Last I could tell she wasn't ever convicted of a damned thing. In fact, they cleared her of wrongdoing every time someone tried to say something like that about her.

:shrug:

You are going to believe what you want to believe. That's why it's so annoying to me..if I try to discuss anything that opposes what you think..you just jump on me and say I'm blindly following(when I'm not, but how the hell would you know if you don't listen)

You keep on believing what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. Since you can't hold a reasonable debate, what's the point in even commenting?

[Clove]

I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too...

You could, but you'd be late since he already told everyone he used drugs. Next?

[Ilvane]

I could say the same that people think Hillary is corrupt, and have talked about her for years..though no convictions, no nothing..Next?

[CrystalTears]

I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too.
Isn't it great that he admitted his faults way in advance? Don't you wish all politicians would admit their faults?


I just don't believe in using "swiftboat" tactics to attack politicians. Last I could tell she wasn't ever convicted of a damned thing. In fact, they cleared her of wrongdoing every time someone tried to say something like that about her.
And just because you're not convicted doesn't mean that you never did anything wrong. It just means you were clever enough to not get caught.


You are going to believe what you want to believe.
Ditto.

That's why it's so annoying to me..if I try to discuss anything that opposes what you think..you just jump on me and say I'm blindly following(when I'm not, but how the hell would you know if you don't listen)

You keep on believing what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. Since you can't hold a reasonable debate, what's the point in even commenting?
There's a difference between being opposed to someone's point of view or opinion, and ignoring facts and blindly believing in someone like you have with Hillary. When people have pointed out facts about Hillary being corrupt, you find some excuse to not believe it.

If you have some entitled information about Hillary that the rest of us aren't privy to, by all means share. But since we all have the same resources and you're pretty much the only one ignoring that information, it's easy to assume that you're blindly following someone.

[Clove]

Oh good, so I won't ever hear you say anything about Bush being impeachable (since he hasn't been yet)? Wait Nixon wasn't impeached either.

You ignore instance after instance of Hillary being a business as usual, opportunistic, career politician... while in office. And you compare that to admitted drug use in Obama's distant private history?

Paddleball at Ilvane's!

[Celephais]

Sorry Vinnie...

http://www.naturalfamilyblog.com/Hillary%20with%20gun%20(2).jpg


WTF is wrong with Hillary?

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/museum/flash/hindenburg.jpg
Have your inline picture privledges been revoked or something? Or do you not know how to inline a picture? I'm not making fun of you, just curious.

[Gan]

I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too.

I just don't believe in using "swiftboat" tactics to attack politicians. Last I could tell she wasn't ever convicted of a damned thing. In fact, they cleared her of wrongdoing every time someone tried to say something like that about her.

:shrug:

You are going to believe what you want to believe. That's why it's so annoying to me..if I try to discuss anything that opposes what you think..you just jump on me and say I'm blindly following(when I'm not, but how the hell would you know if you don't listen)

You keep on believing what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. Since you can't hold a reasonable debate, what's the point in even commenting?

You already have...


So Obama admitting to harder drug use(cocaine to be specific), is not a valid thing to bring up?

How is it dirty to bring up liabilities he may have? He certainly brings up hers, doesn't he? Personally, I think it's an issue to talk about.

People may not care in the end, because Bush admitted to cocaine use and boozing and people still voted for him, but she certainly has a right to her opinion on it.

I don't see it as being desperate at all.

:lol:

[Bobmuhthol]

Gan wins.

[Clove]

Have your inline picture privledges been revoked or something? Or do you not know how to inline a picture? I'm not making fun of you, just curious.

Nope. I resent that I have to disable sigs, avatars and inline pictures at work. Go ask Bob why he can't figure out how to quote.

[Bobmuhthol]

Nope. I resent that I have to disable sigs, avatars and inline pictures at work. Go ask Bob why he can't figure out how to quote.

This looks rather queer. I quote when it's appropriate.

I'm also hardcore and never adapted to the introduction of quote buttons. Fuck evolution.

[oldanforgotten]

I could say the same that people think Hillary is corrupt, and have talked about her for years..though no convictions, no nothing..Next?

So, I assume you would defend OJ as well, he's never been found criminally liable of anything.

I never brought up that other crap, and no one else has either. I did however bring up something alarming about the Clinton's, despite 95-2 objection from the Senate and 440-30 objection from Congress, provide pardon for 16 people who:

a) admitted terrorism and acts of terrorism up through and including bombing US citizens in several incidents, resulting in the DEATHS of multiple citizens.

b) Never asked for any pardon, 2 of them renouncing the pardon, and others stating that they had no remorse on record.

c) are STILL part of a group that is considered a terrorist group by the CIA

d) bought them lots of votes in New York.

Yea, of course she isn't corrupt. She's a leader in pork barrel projects, she was granted immunity from testifying in the Whitewater loan fraud scandal, and as we speak, admittedly sending her daughter out on dinner dates with superdelegates in the party.

You're right Angela, she's "working hard" to "earn" the votes. She makes George Bush look like a Saint.
________
Ecigarette (http://vaporizer.org/)

[oldanforgotten]

I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too.

I just don't believe in using "swiftboat" tactics to attack politicians. Last I could tell she wasn't ever convicted of a damned thing. In fact, they cleared her of wrongdoing every time someone tried to say something like that about her.

:shrug:

You are going to believe what you want to believe. That's why it's so annoying to me..if I try to discuss anything that opposes what you think..you just jump on me and say I'm blindly following(when I'm not, but how the hell would you know if you don't listen)

You keep on believing what you want to believe, and I'll do the same. Since you can't hold a reasonable debate, what's the point in even commenting?

The point of commenting is eliciting responses from you that illustrate to everyone that for every ClydeR that exists on that side of the fence, we democrats have one of you.
________
Mazda 323f (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_323F)

[Clove]

Come on don't be so hard on Hill, OAF. She did sponsor:

S. Con. Res. 27: A concurrent resolution supporting the goals and ideals of "National Purple Heart Recognition Day"

[oldanforgotten]

Come on don't be so hard on Hill, OAF. She did sponsor:

S. Con. Res. 27: A concurrent resolution supporting the goals and ideals of "National Purple Heart Recognition Day"

:rofl:
________
Montana Marijuana Dispensaries (http://montana.dispensaries.org/)

[Celephais]

Nope. I resent that I have to disable sigs, avatars and inline pictures at work.
Yeah I have to disable avatars at work... obnoxious. Does disabling inline pictures mean you cannot create inline pictures? That would explain it...


Go ask Bob why he can't figure out how to quote.
I've made fun of Fallen and Bob for not figuring out how to quote before.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah I have to disable avatars at work... obnoxious. Does disabling inline pictures mean you cannot create inline pictures? That would explain it...
No, if you use the img tags for the pictures it should still post normally as a picture. However if you try to edit said post, it will return as a link.

[Ilvane]

Gan, if you can't see the difference between someone who admitted doing something illegal but expects everyone to forget about it, and someone who has said they never did anything illegal, and never admitted to it, and has never been convicted of it..then I give up on you.

"Swiftboat" type attacks are not true. Obama flat out admitted.

You are smarter than that.

Angela

[Clove]

Gan, if you can't see the difference between someone who admitted doing something illegal but expects everyone to forget about it, and someone who has said they never did anything illegal, and never admitted to it, and has never been convicted of it..then I give up on you.

"Swiftboat" type attacks are not true. Obama flat out admitted.

You are smarter than that.

Angela

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg

[Clove]

I think we're all trying to figure out how your not-bringing-up-admitted-drug-use-when-you-really-already-have absolves you from "Swiftboat" tactics?


I could turn around and say Obama used drugs and blah blah..and that would be true too.

I just don't believe in using "swiftboat" tactics to attack politicians...


..."Swiftboat" type attacks are not true. Obama flat out admitted.

You are smarter than that.

Angela

I mean... do YOU even know WTF you're talking about?

[Gan]

I think we're all trying to figure out how your not-bringing-up-admitted-drug-use-when-you-really-already-have absolves you from "Swiftboat" tactics?

Winner

(someone gets the relevance of finding the old quote)

:lol:

[CrystalTears]

Gan, if you can't see the difference between someone who admitted doing something illegal but expects everyone to forget about it, and someone who has said they never did anything illegal, and never admitted to it, and has never been convicted of it..then I give up on you.
If you can't see the difference between someone admitting their faults which can't be used against him as though he was hiding something about himself, and someone who has done illegal things but chooses to ignore them and pretend that no one knows about them just because she doesn't "remember" and/or hasn't been convicted or jailed for anything, then I give up on you.

[oldanforgotten]

Gan, if you can't see the difference between someone who admitted doing something illegal but expects everyone to forget about it, and someone who has said they never did anything illegal, and never admitted to it, and has never been convicted of it..then I give up on you.

"Swiftboat" type attacks are not true. Obama flat out admitted.


LOL, excellent argument ClydeR. You even earn an A at not addressing the matter of the pardon of the terrorists.




You are smarter than that.

Angela


That sentence and that name do not belong on the same page. Please refrain from using such a blatant oxymoron.
________
Honda Logo Specifications (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Logo)

[oldanforgotten]

Besides, I've had no less than two PM's already on these boards telling me how Angela helped them recently decide to vote for Obama instead of Hillary. Now if we can only get her on the road, making speeches for Hillary with this insipid banter, Hillary's campaign would be doomed. But far as I am concerned, Ilvane does a better job at convincing people to vote Obama than I ever could. Just have to get her to respond to something.
________
VAPORMATIC (http://www.vaporshop.com/vapormatic-vaporizer.html)

[Clove]

McCain Party at Angela's!

[Ilvane]

No party at my house..I'm locking the doors..bastards.

Angela

[CrystalTears]

So that she can secretly vote for Obama and no one will be the wiser... not even Angela.

[Ilvane]

I've decided if it winds up Obama I'm probably not going to bother voting.

I can't stomach voting for him, I really believe that strongly that he isn't the right person for what is going on in this country right now.:shrug:

I got scared of McCain when he talked about the right wing judges he would appoint to the supreme court. I guess I'm just disillusioned with the country going for fluff rather than substance with Obama too.

Angela

[CrystalTears]

:lol: I think I'm done here. I'll just watch for comedic relief now.

[Ilvane]

You guys enjoy..not much fun attacking a person who really doesn't give a shit what you think.:P

[Clove]

No party at my house..I'm locking the doors..bastards.

Angela

But... you... said...

[Parkbandit]

:rofl:

On one hand.. I want to pile up on Ilvane because it's so easy. On the other hand, some of you are sounding as dumb as the reverse of Backlash.. which makes me sad.

There isn't a bigger Clinton hater than me out there.. but I don't think she's really whoring out her daughter and I really don't think she would kill someone for a vote.

[Parkbandit]

You guys enjoy..not much fun attacking a person who really doesn't give a shit what you think.:P


Now, now now.. don't go deleting all your posts again in a fit of rage and embarrassment.

[Gan]

http://www.kevininscoe.com/pub/lol.jpg

[CrystalTears]

No, but she's no saint! My gawd.

Edit: GODDAMNIT GAN, MY EYES! HOLY CRAP! H8 U!

[Parkbandit]

No, but she's no saint! My gawd.

Far from a saint.. although I don't think she's the next anti-christ either. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.. where it always is in Politics.

[Clove]

Far from a saint.. although I don't think she's the next anti-christ either. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.. where it always is in Politics.

WTF did you do to PB?

[oldanforgotten]

:rofl:

On one hand.. I want to pile up on Ilvane because it's so easy. On the other hand, some of you are sounding as dumb as the reverse of Backlash.. which makes me sad.

There isn't a bigger Clinton hater than me out there.. but I don't think she's really whoring out her daughter and I really don't think she would kill someone for a vote.

Sending out one's own daughter to the University of Wisconsin itself wasn't whoring her out. The fact that her daughter was unable to answer about 40% of the questions asked however, questions the judgement.

Sending out one's own daughter on a series of dinner dates with individual superdelegates on the other hand, is about as close as you can get in the world of politics to whoring out the kids.
________
List Of Platforms (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/List_of_Mazda_platforms)

[oldanforgotten]

Far from a saint.. although I don't think she's the next anti-christ either. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.. where it always is in Politics.

No one said she was the anti-christ. What we are saying is that she is the most dishonest and underhanded of the candidates, she is the least sincere, and she is the most political.

Her track record on the death tax is abhorrent. Stands to reinstate it, but hides her own finances and hires an estate tax lawyer. Last I checked, tax lawyers don't get hired to tell you to leave money in the bank for the taxes to take effect, but rather work effectively to find tax shelters for your money to minimize the amount of taxes you pay.

Pardoning terrorists who never even asked for it or renounced their group for extra Hispanic vote is pretty damn anti-christ though.
________
Mary Jane (http://maryjanes.info/)

[Parkbandit]

Sending out one's own daughter to the University of Wisconsin itself wasn't whoring her out. The fact that her daughter was unable to answer about 40% of the questions asked however, questions the judgement.

Sending out one's own daughter on a series of dinner dates with individual superdelegates on the other hand, is about as close as you can get in the world of politics to whoring out the kids.

You call them dinner dates.. implying sexual undertones. I've taken countless women out to business dinners and luncheons.. and that was never on my mind. I'm sure it was on their mind though :)

Just because she is sucking up to Superdelegates in much the same manner that Obama is.. doesn't mean she is being whored out. Is Obama whoring out his wife then? Is Hillary whoring out her husband (I'm sure he wouldn't mind).

[Clove]

You call them dinner dates.. implying sexual undertones. I've taken countless women out to business dinners and luncheons.. and that was never on my mind...

Your doctor can suggest various therapies that will help with that.

[Parkbandit]

Your doctor can suggest various therapies that will help with that.

Please... some of these 'dates' were hideous. I wouldn't fuck them with your tiny prick.

[sst]

http://www.kevininscoe.com/pub/lol.jpg

I woke my roomate up cause i laughed so hard when i saw that pic

[Warriorbird]

Hillarity.

[oldanforgotten]

Regardless, when you are asking and pandering for votes, coaching one's own child to do it, especially the way Hillary has been, is the political equivalent of whoring them out.

her Quote to open statements at the University of Wisconsin
"Thank you everyone. I'm like, here to try and help you figure out who the best candidate is, and I think its my mom. We have two great choices, and I'm not here to ask you to vote for my mom, but rather to tell you the differences between them, and why I think she's the right choice, and why I'm voting for my mom"

Some of her answers to questions:
"When it comes to healthcare, his plan is almost the same as McCains, which isn't much of an improvement over right now. I really think that all of us, everyone needs Universal health care, and my mom is the only one offering that"

"I really don't think its fair to say that my mom couldn't get things done while being First Lady, because she has no power in that position"

"I think my mom is definitely the best experienced candidate, and she has spent almost half her life in politics making important decisions and getting things done for the people"

Those statements were all made within about a 10 minute gap. Thank you CNN and MSNBC for covering it on Live TV, although it would have been nice to get more quotables.
________
Michigan Marijuana Dispensary (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[Bobmuhthol]

You mean irregardless.

[CrystalTears]

And here I thought Ilvane's real name was Angela not Chelsea.

[Ilvane]

I'm sorry..is Chelsea running for president??

She received her undergraduate degree in history from Stanford University and a graduate degree from Oxford, she's not exactly stupid either.

[Warriorbird]

http://yeswecanhas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/yzicanlolbama.jpg

[Bobmuhthol]

<<She received her undergraduate degree in history from Stanford University and a graduate degree from Oxford, she's not exactly stupid either.>>

That has nothing to do with being a Clinton, though, amirite?

[Clove]

I'm sorry..is Chelsea running for president??

She received her undergraduate degree in history from Stanford University and a graduate degree from Oxford, she's not exactly stupid either.

George Dubayah got his undergratuate from Yale and his MBA from Harvard. Does Angela proclaim him "not exactly stupid"?

[Ilvane]

She also turned down Harvard and Yale? Your point?

I don't see what you are trying to get at? You get good grades because your Chelsea Clinton?

Angela

[Clove]

She also turned down Harvard and Yale? Your point?

I don't see what you are trying to get at? You get good grades because your Chelsea Clinton?

Angela

Okay so smart students turn down Harvard and Yale? Did YOU have a point?

[Ilvane]

:yawn:

You are so entertaining, I could do this all day.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<She also turned down Harvard and Yale? Your point?>>

You don't have the opportunity to turn down Ivy League schools unless you're:

The child of someone like Bill Clinton
You apply there

If she didn't want to go there (and it's not exactly "turning them down" by choosing Stanford) she wouldn't have applied, so...

<<I don't see what you are trying to get at? You get good grades because your Chelsea Clinton?>>

If you don't think her college career would be different if she was born to different parents, you're a goddamn fool.

[Warriorbird]

http://yeswecanhas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/yeswecanhascheezburger.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Regardless, when you are asking and pandering for votes, coaching one's own child to do it, especially the way Hillary has been, is the political equivalent of whoring them out.

her Quote to open statements at the University of Wisconsin
"Thank you everyone. I'm like, here to try and help you figure out who the best candidate is, and I think its my mom. We have two great choices, and I'm not here to ask you to vote for my mom, but rather to tell you the differences between them, and why I think she's the right choice, and why I'm voting for my mom"

Some of her answers to questions:
"When it comes to healthcare, his plan is almost the same as McCains, which isn't much of an improvement over right now. I really think that all of us, everyone needs Universal health care, and my mom is the only one offering that"

"I really don't think its fair to say that my mom couldn't get things done while being First Lady, because she has no power in that position"

"I think my mom is definitely the best experienced candidate, and she has spent almost half her life in politics making important decisions and getting things done for the people"

Those statements were all made within about a 10 minute gap. Thank you CNN and MSNBC for covering it on Live TV, although it would have been nice to get more quotables.


Giving dumb answers to questions /= being whored out. There are very few instances where family members do not speak or help on a campaign.

Christ.. you are sounding like the frothy liberals after Bush every time you talk about Clinton. WE GET IT. YOU HATE CLINTON.

Get some perspective ffs.

[Drew]

This just in: ParkBandit lovvvvvvvvvvvvvves Hillary Clinton.

[Davenshire]

How is this initial post "swift boating?"

I thought swift boating was lying out right. Saying you know.... "McCains adopted daughter was from an affair."


Am I wrong at this article, or did all this really happen with The Clintons and FALN?

And Ilvane, you just proved my view on all that is wrong with "some people" voting for HRC. I see faults in Barrack Obama. He admits to them. You don't see any faults in Hillary.

It's all lies!!!!

[Parkbandit]

This just in: ParkBandit lovvvvvvvvvvvvvves Hillary Clinton.


I think my views on Hillary are very well documented on these boards.. I just don't think she deserves the bullshit bashing she's now currently getting... anymore than I think Bush deserves it.

Nothing would make me happier than for her to lose. At everything.

[DeV]

Chelsea is a grown ass woman; it's not as if she's being forced into laboring for her mothers evil bid for the presidency. And is it so far fetched that the son or daughter of a presidential hopeful be personally and politically involved in the affairs surrounding a parent's campaign? Mary Cheney immediately comes to mind.

It's not unusual at all; please stop making it appear to be.

[Gan]

I really dont have a problem with Chelsea stumping for Hillary. I would expect that from any children of any candidate. Its just how things are done.

:shrug:

PS. I'm not a Hillary fan either. ;)

[CrystalTears]

I don't have a problem with Chelsea campaigning for her mother either. I was just amused by her responses at UW.

[Clove]

Chelsea is insignificant.

[Alfster]

You guys enjoy..not much fun attacking a person who really doesn't give a shit what you think.:P

see sig

[Gan]

I don't have a problem with Chelsea campaigning for her mother either. I was just amused by her responses at UW.

Yea, I got a :chuckle: from them as well. I would expect her to be armed better to handle such questions. At least she didnt try to hide or mask the fact that her goal was to persuade the vote for Hillary.

[Latrinsorm]

Congrats to Ilvane for the "you don't even read my posts", "I don't care what you think" and "you are so entertaining" trifecta of painfully transparent defense mechanism posts. In one thread, no less!!

[oldanforgotten]

[QUOTE=Davenshire;683613]

Am I wrong at this article, or did all this really happen with The Clintons and FALN?

QUOTE]


To answer this question, the facts of the matter are as follows:

Before leaving office, Clinton granted a pardon to 16 members of FALN.

Records have shown that none of the members had requested clemency, therefore, the pardon requests would have been submitted a third party organization, namely a Hispanic support group based in the State of New York.

Hillary had announced prior to this a bid to run for Senate in NY.

the 16 members of FALN who were imprisoned were all implicated and found guilty of multiple acts of terrorism, including carbombings in New York City. Civilian deaths from the attacks was in the dozens. At the time of arrest, they were found with several pounds worth of explosives.

The Senate condemned the pardons by a 95-2 vote, and Congress condemned it by 441-30.

2 members who were pardoned refused to accept clemency given to them by an American. None of the freed members of FALN have renounced their ties with the organization, and as far as documented records go, they all returned to Puerto Rico.

Those are the facts. Lots of people have been able to connect the dots. Ilvane hasn't, but she is living proof that not all kids going to Harvard have intelligence. Take it at fact level, try to connect the dots, whatever. Paints a clear picture for most people.
________
Chrysler crossfire history (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Crossfire)

[Warriorbird]

http://yeswecanhas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/lolcatmish.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Am I wrong at this article, or did all this really happen with The Clintons and FALN?




To answer this question, the facts of the matter are as follows:

Before leaving office, Clinton granted a pardon to 16 members of FALN.

Records have shown that none of the members had requested clemency, therefore, the pardon requests would have been submitted a third party organization, namely a Hispanic support group based in the State of New York.

Hillary had announced prior to this a bid to run for Senate in NY.

the 16 members of FALN who were imprisoned were all implicated and found guilty of multiple acts of terrorism, including carbombings in New York City. Civilian deaths from the attacks was in the dozens. At the time of arrest, they were found with several pounds worth of explosives.

The Senate condemned the pardons by a 95-2 vote, and Congress condemned it by 441-30.

2 members who were pardoned refused to accept clemency given to them by an American. None of the freed members of FALN have renounced their ties with the organization, and as far as documented records go, they all returned to Puerto Rico.

Those are the facts. Lots of people have been able to connect the dots. Ilvane hasn't, but she is living proof that not all kids going to Harvard have intelligence. Take it at fact level, try to connect the dots, whatever. Paints a clear picture for most people.

None of the sixteen were convicted of bombings or any crime which injured another person, and all of the sixteen had served nineteen years or longer in prison, which was a longer sentence than such crimes typically received, according to the White House. Clinton offered clemency, on condition that the prisoners renounce violence, at the appeal of 10 Nobel Peace Prize laureates, President Jimmy Carter, the Cardinal of New York, and the Archbishop of Puerto Rico.

In light of recent political news, this was lifted directly from Wikipedia. They were the conspirators, not the bombers, and they served longer than most people served for those kind of crimes. Plus, there was pressure to give them clemency, and the ones who OPPOSED clemency were all political types who didn't want to seem weak.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Funny, no one has been able to respond to this. Hmmmmmmm.

[Clove]

I think it's because there was no need.

I don't think the fact that they were conspirators not actual bombers really has much impact what was already mentioned. I doubt I'd get much sympathy from a jury for conspiring to murder my wife (in the event I didn't commit the actual murder).

Maybe you won't make such a bad lawyer after all; you seem to have a penchant for meaningless distinctions and definitions.

Maybe you can source the "tremendous pressure" to grant clemency to them? Because I don't remember any.

[oldanforgotten]

None of the sixteen were convicted of bombings or any crime which injured another person, and all of the sixteen had served nineteen years or longer in prison, which was a longer sentence than such crimes typically received, according to the White House. Clinton offered clemency, on condition that the prisoners renounce violence, at the appeal of 10 Nobel Peace Prize laureates, President Jimmy Carter, the Cardinal of New York, and the Archbishop of Puerto Rico.

In light of recent political news, this was lifted directly from Wikipedia. They were the conspirators, not the bombers, and they served longer than most people served for those kind of crimes. Plus, there was pressure to give them clemency, and the ones who OPPOSED clemency were all political types who didn't want to seem weak.

-TheE-

FALN bombings resulted in dozens of deaths in NYC and Chicago. Had you read the entire Wikipedia article, the 16 in question were noted as Congress having allocated 6 direct deaths to the 16, including a NYC cop.

Then again, you're right. A couple of those 16 only helped to pay for the bombs, plot them, but did not actually do anything physical with the bombs. I assume you wish to pursue Osama Bin Laden in the same light, because all he did is finance and plan, and to my knowledge, he himself has yet to kill anyone.
________
B PLATFORM (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_B_platform)

[Clove]

I think the -E- is just jealous for attention.

[TheEschaton]

"Conspiracy" can be as simple as being in the room when the actual bombers were planning the attack. In fact, had they been materially involved, to the point where they did everything BUT set off the bomb, they'd have been convincted OF the murder/terrorism/etc, because they were part of the plot to do so. Even the getaway driver is convicted of armed robbery, even if he never stepped foot in the bank, and didn't know his colleagues had guns.

Conspiracy means they were there when it was planned. Even had they took significant part in the planning, they could have, and might have been, convicted on the actual crime, not conspiracy to commit.

That is not parsing, dumb ass, that's an actual distinction between committing the crime and essentially being there when people were talking about committing the crime and not turning them in.

The extreme pressure would have been from those listed people. When a former president, the two biggest religious figures in the constituencies these people were from and where they committed their crimes, and 10 Nobel Peace Prize laureates pressure you, they don't exactly hold a press conference. They have a meeting, in private, and argue why such an act is the moral thing to do in spite of political pressure not to do so.

[TheEschaton]

Oh, and Tamral, lrn2read:


None of the 16 were convicted of bombings or any crime which injured another person, though they were sentenced with terms ranging from 35 to 105 years in prison for the conviction of conspiracy and sedition. Congress, however, recognizes that the FALN is responsible for "6 deaths and the permanent maiming of dozens of others, including law enforcement officials."

This says to me that Congress recognized the ORGANIZATION was responsible for 6 deaths and countless injuries, not the 16 members of the organization who were pardoned. All of them had served 19 years, which was longer than the average sentence of conspiracy charges.

-TheE-

[Clove]

When a former president, the two biggest religious figures in the constituencies these people were from and where they committed their crimes, and 10 Nobel Peace Prize laureates pressure you, they don't exactly hold a press conference. They have a meeting, in private, and argue why such an act is the moral thing to do in spite of political pressure not to do so.

Is that how it works? I'm not up on how pressure from Nobel Peace Prize laureates work. But you could have continued to mention that there was a good deal of pressure AGAINST the commutations too, notably the FBI, FOP, the victims of the bombings, members of Congress, the US Attorney's Office etc. I imagine the FBI and FOP don't want to appear politically weak. Who to go with? I'm gonna go with the FBI, US Attorney's Office etc.

Yes, you're making a pointless distinction. Had they turned the bitches in, they wouldn't be in jail.

[TheEschaton]

The distinction is within what the crimes they were convicted of actually were. They were NOT convicted of anything that is considered a "violent crime", and they had all served 19 years.

[oldanforgotten]

The distinction is within what the crimes they were convicted of actually were. They were NOT convicted of anything that is considered a "violent crime", and they had all served 19 years.


WTB you missing the whole part about how they never asked for clemency.

Either way, you can justify it however you see fit. Most people read it at the same basic level:

Free terrorists = hispanic votes.

As for it being longer sentences than most, that was the excuse, but I'd love to see more examples of foreign nationals in organizations that have set off bombs that have killed people on US soil getting presidential pardons, or have shorter sentences when the number of bombs in the conspiracy > 12. I'd love to see this precedent.
________
PENNY STOCKS TO BUY (http://pennystockpicks.net/)

[Clove]

And justifiably so, if the US Attorney's Office has anything to say about it. Granted they aren't Nobel Peace Prize winners out there- but I don't think they're in the business of railroading innocent Puerto Ricans either.

[TheEschaton]

A) Puerto Ricans aren't foreign nationals. They are afforded all the Constitutional rights of citizens, except for (oddly) the right to vote.

B) Conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to do anything, does not get as long a sentence as they received.

C) Of course the U.S. Attorney's office and the FBI opposed it, they have to respond to convictions they themselves obtained. I know people in the Mass AG's office who had to argue in front of the Supreme Judicial Court (highest Court in MA) why Goodrich (decision mandating gay marriage) was unconstitutional, despite not believing that it was unconstitutional. I'm not saying this happened in this case, but those offices are in some ways required to respond.

D) "= free HIspanic votes" is something the pundits put on the pardons, and really holds no merit, as I don't know that Puerto Ricans generally agree with terrorism.

[Clove]

http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/22/fbi.faln.01/


None of the 16 who were offered clemency was convicted in any of the bombings. They were convicted on a variety of charges, ranging from bomb-making and conspiracy to armed robbery, and given sentences ranging from 35 to 90 years; the activists had served 14 to 19 years in prison.



What about "bomb making"? That sounds kind of violent. Does bomb-making get the kind of sentences they received? Huh? Huh?

[Clove]

Not to mention FALN's involvement with CT's relatives...

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/11/07/puertorico.clemency/index.html

[TheEschaton]

It doesn't count as a "violent crime" until it actually hurts someone.

Edit: I put "violent crime" in quotes because it's a legal distinction, not my distinction.

[Clove]

D) "= free HIspanic votes" is something the pundits put on the pardons, and really holds no merit, as I don't know that Puerto Ricans generally agree with terrorism.

Yes, but they weren't really terrorists, see.

[Clove]

Funny, no one has been able to respond to this. Hmmmmmmm.

So in conclusion, nobody responded to it- because it was dumb.

[TheEschaton]

Funny, didn't see you disprove what I said - my main goal was to make it very clear that it wasn't as clearcut a travesty of justice and politicking that OAF made it seem like.

-TheE-

[Clove]

I think digging up that they were convicted of a variety of charges that included bomb making pretty clearly disproves your point.

[Clove]

I thought this was an interesting article on the subject:


Twelve jailed members of a Puerto-Rican "nationalist group" accepted the Clinton’s offer of conditional clemency. Eleven became eligible for release within days. The remaining individual had his 55-year sentence drastically reduced. Each is a member of the F.A.L.N. (the Spanish initials for the "Armed Forces of National Liberation"). FALN carried out 150 bombings in the United States from 1974 to 1983. The bombs were placed - among other places - in police headquarters and luncheons, and six people were killed. More than eighty others were wounded. Bank robbery was another popular "protest activity" of FALN.

But Clinton’s act of forgiveness seemed unusual for other reasons. The Supreme Court has determined that the clemency power includes the power to pardon offenders or commute sentences (with, or without condition), grant general amnesties, remit fines and forfeitures, and delay sentences. The President’s conditional commutation of FALN members was, however, opposed by Justice Department officials, the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Prisons, several U.S. Attorneys, and the National Association of Police Organizations. The House of Representatives condemned Clinton’s decision by a vote of 311 to 41. The U.S. Senate jumped on the pile with a resolution that called the decision "deplorable." Ninety-five Senators (of 100) supported the resolution....

In the last 90 years, presidents have averaged about 200 acts of clemency per year. Every attempt to restrict the president’s power has been rejected by the Supreme Court. Presidents have a perfect record in this 200-year contest. The Constitution does not require presidents to give "reasons" for clemency decisions, much less "good" reasons...


It's nice to see Clinton holding up traditions.

[TheEschaton]

Heh, Presidential pardons has always been a crazy sort of thing. I think we should start a pool on who Bush'll pardon. 5:4 odds on I. Scooter Libby.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Heh, Presidential pardons has always been a crazy sort of thing. I think we should start a pool on who Bush'll pardon. 5:4 odds on I. Scooter Libby.

-TheE-

I dont know. I think he's done what he's going to do for Libby. If he pardons Libby it would definately suprise me.

[Parkbandit]

Heh, Presidential pardons has always been a crazy sort of thing. I think we should start a pool on who Bush'll pardon. 5:4 odds on I. Scooter Libby.

-TheE-

Because what Scooter did is in the same ballpark as those 'crazy sort of' terrorists did.

[TheEschaton]

Did I say that? All I said was we should start a pool on who Dubya will pardon.


-TheE-
P.S. He outed a CIA operative, what many consider treason.

[Gan]

Did I say that? All I said was we should start a pool on who Dubya will pardon.


-TheE-
P.S. He outed a CIA operative, what many consider treason.

OH GOD NOT ANOTHER PLAME DISCUSSION AGAIN.

:deadhorse:

[Parkbandit]

Did I say that? All I said was we should start a pool on who Dubya will pardon.


-TheE-
P.S. He outed a CIA operative, what many consider treason.

Really? You might want to look up what he was actually found guilty of.

[hitlist]

Heeey lets just vote for the fucknut that turned his back to the american flag a few weeks ago while saying the pledge of allegiance. Feh.

Bad enough Wisconsin (where I live) went to the prick. I say take'm both out, give it all to Tom Cruise. He'd probably do better than those two fucks. Hrmph, Screw politics.

= The Snoogs :nono:

[CrystalTears]

When did he turn his back on the American flag? Where the hell do you people come up with this crap?

As for Tom Cruise, I'd sooner vote for Hillary.

When did this nutbag join the PC ranks?

[Nieninque]

When did he turn his back on the American flag? Where the hell do you people come up with this crap?

You remember the photo a little while back when the other two people in the photo (Hils and somsone else) were quick to jump up and he wasnt as quick, so before the whole thing started it looked as though he wasnt doing the things you Septics do when someone plays the national anthem.

See, all those terrorists think they have to kill people to bring the country to a standstill, if they just streamed a constant loop of your national anthem, the whole country would grind to a halt. Silly brown people.

[CrystalTears]

He didn't put his hand on his heart for the National Anthem, which you don't have to do. I don't see that as turning your back on the flag.