State of Emergency in Iraq

[Ilvane]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

-A

[Wezas]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg

[Cayge]

But, we are helping them, in the long run, and its improving our own economy in the process. Win/win.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by Ilvane
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think?

-A

I think its about time they started knocking heads in Falluja.


Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

Which way are you hoping for? I think come hell or high water that they will try to have the election as promised. How sucessful it will be im not sure, but i bet they do it.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ilvane

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

-A

I never believed that the elections would be in January. Regardless of the back and forth between the two candidates, it was just more 'swagger' imho.

[Parkbandit]

About fucking time.

As far as the elections in January.. I personally think it's too early, but if they don't they will have people like you saying "See! Bush can't even deliver on what he promised! WE NEED TO IMPEACH HIM NOW!"

The only way elections will not occur is if the Iraqi Government decided that it is not a good time. America has no say in when or how they will occur anymore.

[CrystalTears]

At this point I don't think anything that Bush accomplishes will make a difference to the people who already don't like him.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Dave
The only way elections will not occur is if the Iraqi Government decided that it is not a good time. America has no say in when or how they will occur anymore.

Do honestly think that the current Iraqi PM operates under any sort of autonomy?

[Latrinsorm]

They've been making noise about Fallujah for some time now. I don't believe this will have any affect on the holding of elections. Naturally, I'm sure someone there will use Fallujah as political propoganda.

[GSTamral]

<<<
So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?
>>>

I don't so much trust Bush, as I trust the military's ability to make these judgements. Not only is your opinion biased, but you seem to sit there and do nothing but harp on every article that says something is not as originally intended and put a spin on it.

As indifferent as I am to who we chose as president, the Americans have spoken, and the choice was made. Life goes on. The people making decisions are smarter than you are. They are also smarter than the media. You continuously ask people to refrain from badgering one side or another, yet you continue to egg matters on with ridiculously pre-election like partisan banter.

Listen Ilvane: You have, sitting in front of you, an offer for more than 5,000 in cash, or one month of salary after taxes against whatever tiny bullshit you make, giving you some very nice odds against this draft thing ever happening. If you think the media is right, and the administration is that bad, I'll throw the same offer down to you again.

Take it if you honestly are stupid enough to believe all the media declarations. Take the offer Ilvane. I can create the account monday morning. A fidelity trust. Because I still think your monthly salary will exceed the interest I would earn in 4 years. And as far as I'm concerned, this is free money. Take the offer. Because if all you have is talk, and you don't even stand behind what you keep harping on and talking about, I can't expect anyone to expect you to be anything more than hot air. Which is all I think you are at this point anyway.

If you think me to be dishonorable with money, feel free to ask TheE, who caught me making a bad proposition, and I had to match his charitable donation in his dog, Blaze's name. In fact, the money wouldn't even go to me. You would be given something to sign and have stamped by a notary public on a conditional joint account from the United Missouri Bank through Fidelity, or through Citibank if you are more comfortable with Schwab.

Take my money Ilvane if you truly believe what you talk about. I'm NOT going to stop and get off your case the same way you won't get off the current administration's case. It is as much my own right to free speech as yours, and besides, I'm one of the haves trying to take more money from the have nots right?

[Ravenstorm]

Speaking of not getting off cases Tamral, where's that senate bill you claimed Kerry voted against? This is the fourth time you've been asked for it and the last time you said you would get the information.

Or you could just admit it doesn't exist and you either made it up yourself or parroted back some nonsense you read on Drudge without bothering to check the accuracy. Those do seem to be the two most logical conclusions for why you refuse to supply the information despite stating you would do so. Please, prove me wrong.

Raven

Originally posted by longshot

Originally posted by Dave
The only way elections will not occur is if the Iraqi Government decided that it is not a good time. America has no say in when or how they will occur anymore.

Do honestly think that the current Iraqi PM operates under any sort of autonomy?

Considering your ignorance on the subject and the command structure of our troops over there I will spell it out for you. I know for a fact that the PM in fact does.
There are tons of operations we have wanted to engage in over there that we have not been allowed to because the current Iraqi government says no.

Whenever the United States Army engages in a conflict and is located in a host nation whos government we are not at war with (as is currently the case in Iraq) we write up a SOFA agreement, which states what we can, and can not do in the country. If you look into the situation In Iraq right now you would notice that we are already waiting to attack the insurgents and would have a long time ago, but we have yet to recieve the go ahead from the Iraqi government, so we are forced to wait until that time comes.



[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Dave]

[Ravenstorm]

I must admit I'm impressed. I had no idea that in a mere two or three months since going to boot camp, someone could gain such expertise on the tactical situation in Iraq and have the top echelon use one as a sounding board to bitch and moan about how many operations they're not allowed to carry out. And all without even leaving the good ole U S of A.

I forsee a few stars in someone's future in the next six months or so. I applaud you, General. Give them hell!

Raven

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[Ilvane]

Tamral, do you always have to blather on like that?

I was merely showing a news article.

-A

[GSTamral]

<<<
I must admit I'm impressed. I had no idea that in a mere two or three months since going to boot camp, someone could gain such expertise on the tactical situation in Iraq and have the top echelon use one as a sounding board to bitch and moan about how many operations they're not allowed to carry out. And all without even leaving the good ole U S of A.
>>>

As much as I positively hate agreeing with Dave on anything, he has experience that you don't, and he has service that you don't, and he knows more about the subject than you do through his experience, albeit limited as it is at this point. I'm going to trust someone with military experience over a Salon writer on the topic of war

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
I must admit I'm impressed. I had no idea that in a mere two or three months since going to boot camp, someone could gain such expertise on the tactical situation in Iraq and have the top echelon use one as a sounding board to bitch and moan about how many operations they're not allowed to carry out. And all without even leaving the good ole U S of A.

I forsee a few stars in someone's future in the next six months or so. I applaud you, General. Give them hell!

Raven

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Ravenstorm]

Raven with my occupation in the military I deal with this type of information. The legal aspect of my job is very important because we tend to walk a thin line that we must be careful not to be crossed. If I was in a host nation and decided I needed to talk to somebody and depending on the legal situation of the US troops there I can easily be put in jail for a nice long time if I was to go against the SOFA for example.
I am also blessed to have a vast amount of expertise that I spend 10 hours a day with in classrooms learning the information that I am talking about now. People who have been there done that and are glad to tell of what is going on here and there.

[GSTamral]

Ilvane, if you are going to continue to harp and you cannot move on from this election, then you are doomed regardless. Personally, since you don't choose to wake up, accept the fact, and at least try to move forward in a semi-optimistic fashion and trust America to do well, you are going to be bound to fall anyway. Personally, I can't stop you from making whatever decisions you so choose to do, but if this pessimism is all you have left, then the way I figure it, you're bound to lose out anyway, and I might as well try to profit from it while its still there.

[Tsa`ah]

Dave,

A crew cut and a uniform does not make you an expert. The only thing you have under your belt at this time is boot camp.

You don't speak for the troops.
You don't know what is going on over there outside of what you are told. Why is this ... because you are fresh out of boot camp and have not placed on foot inside a combat zone.

The only thing that has changed about you in my eyes is misguided belief of serving makes you more informed than the rest of us.

[GSTamral]

<<<
The only thing that has changed about you in my eyes is misguided belief of serving makes you more informed than the rest of us.
>>>

I have 4 employees under me who spent time in the Gulf during the first war with Iraq. I can assure you, Tsa'ah, that they know a great deal more than everyone on this board combined who didn't serve. This war is no different. Neither has any other war, actually. To think that you know as much about the rules of war, and the fine lines that need to be made as someone who has served, or has any type of military classroom experience is absolutely arrogant.

[Chelle]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Tamral, do you always have to blather on like that?

I was merely showing a news article.

-A
-----------------------------

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

-A




You did more than show a news article. You added a blanketed statement/question along with the article. I think because the tone of your posts seem negative, is why Tamaral is on your case.

[Tsa`ah]

With the exception that Dave has not been in Iraq.

I to have relatives in combat Tammy. I can assure you that they are also more informed than you, Dave, or I.

Your right I have yet to play in the sand. You are wrong to the fact that I may have learned any of this in bootcamp though. My knowledge though limited as I will freely say is enough to know what is and is not allowed for our troops. One thing about military training is they like to use real world examples, and current ones at that. When we learned about SOFA's we ended up using the one that is most appliciable to where most of us are going once we are done with our training here. That happend to be the SOFA agreement between Iraq and the US.

The people who instruct us are warrant officers, experts in their fields, or retired warrant officers. When I have a CW5 in front of me who has returned from a tour in Iraq/afghanistan and is now currently doing a rotation as a instructor telling us what they were and were not allowed to do, I going to pay attention. I am absorbing as much knowledge as I am able to while I am here, my life and future depends on it. Though I doubt I will be a general in 6 months you can be sure that I will be an expert on any and all information that I can get my hands on.

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Dave]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
With the exception that Dave has not been in Iraq.

I to have relatives in combat Tammy. I can assure you that they are also more informed than you, Dave, or I.

In combat? what are their military occupations?

[GSTamral]

<<
I to have relatives in combat Tammy. I can assure you that they are also more informed than you, Dave, or I.
>>>

I agree entirely. However, I also think that from what limited experience he does have, even in training, makes Dave more knowledgeable about this than you are I as well.

I never argued Dave would know as much as anyone who has actively served in war. I simply argued he knows more than you, I, or anyone else on this board who has not.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Ilvane, if you are going to continue to harp and you cannot move on from this election, then you are doomed regardless. Personally, since you don't choose to wake up, accept the fact, and at least try to move forward in a semi-optimistic fashion and trust America to do well, you are going to be bound to fall anyway. Personally, I can't stop you from making whatever decisions you so choose to do, but if this pessimism is all you have left, then the way I figure it, you're bound to lose out anyway, and I might as well try to profit from it while its still there.

:jerkit:

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by GSTamral
However, I also think that from what limited experience he does have, even in training, makes Dave more knowledgeable about this than you are I as well.

Nor will I argue that. And if he speaks of what he has directly experienced, that's fine. Or if he wants to relay what he's heard and believes and qualifies it as such, also fine. That doesn't make them facts nor him an expert. That's makes them hearsay and speculation and him someone who's just out of boot camp and listening to what he's being told.

Raven

[Ilvane]

Where did I say anything about the US election? I just asked if there was going to be elections in Iraq, with a state of emergency being called and all.

If anyone is being defensive, it's not me.

-A

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Ilvane]

[Chelle]

Originally posted by Ilvane
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

-A

No one said you said anything about the U.S. elections. Gawd. He is pointing out your continued negativity towards the admin now. Basically he wants you to put your money where your mouth is or shut up. I think.

It was more than just a simple innocent article posting, or else you could have worded it like this:

"Are they going to be able to have elections in January?" instead of adding the little blanketed statement/question at the end for that extra punch.

Understand what he's talking about now?

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Chelle]

[Ilvane]

They have promised to have elections, is it going to happen?

It's not negative to question the administrations ambitions when it doesn't look good with all the battles going on. I would love if Bush would be realistic. If they aren't able to do the elections safely in January, they should hold off on them. That is all I was saying.

That you insist on seeing negativism in my posts, it is really not necessary. I'm just initiating a discussion, that's all.

-A

BUSH DOES NOT DECIDE WHEN THE ELECTIONS ARE GOING TO BE!
Please get that though your thick head.

[Warriorbird]

So very civilized.

well when one is unable to understand a simple notion like that. Sometimes you have to try a different approach to get them to understand.
She keeps saying the same wrong thing over and over and over.

The United States President Has NO say over when the elections will be held in Iraq. That is left up to the current government over there.

But that will be the last time I say it, because like you in the other thread...
:deadhorse:

Ignorance is bliss for some people.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
In combat? what are their military occupations?

No Dave, they're over in Iraq toting guns around in the mess hall.

Both are infantry. So yes ... combat.

rank?

[Back]

So if W isn’t deciding things... who is?

And, if he isn’t, how can he take credit for the good decisions?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave
rank?

Why don't you ask them when and if you ever go to Iraq.

Act like you do now in front of every Rosenburg you come across.

You can question them, instead of pointing the ridiculous questions toward me.

Rank is rather irrelevant when you're being shot at and returning fire don't you think?

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Backlash
So if W isn’t deciding things... who is?Al-allawi, I think his name is.
And, if he isn’t, how can he take credit for the good decisions? I guess we'll just have to see if he does. :)

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Dave
rank?

Why don't you ask them when and if you ever go to Iraq.

Act like you do now in front of every Rosenburg you come across.

You can question them, instead of pointing the ridiculous questions toward me.

Rank is rather irrelevant when you're being shot at and returning fire don't you think?

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Tsa`ah]

:lol2:

Its relevent in relation to the type of knowledge they have. A buck sergeant or e6 is not as concerned with the SOFA especialy as a infantry soldier. The mindset is if they are shooting at me im going to shoot back, they dont have to worry about many of the things that go along with the us army being in a host nation.

Thats why I ask Tsa'ah.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Dave]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
I must admit I'm impressed. I had no idea that in a mere two or three months since going to boot camp, someone could gain such expertise on the tactical situation in Iraq and have the top echelon use one as a sounding board to bitch and moan about how many operations they're not allowed to carry out. And all without even leaving the good ole U S of A.

I forsee a few stars in someone's future in the next six months or so. I applaud you, General. Give them hell!

Raven

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Ravenstorm]

Why do I believe that if Dave had said something about how horrible things are over in Iraq and how badly everything is going, you would be hefting him upon your shoulders for the world to see.. but because he's disagreeing with you.. he's simply stupid and doesn't know what he's talking about.

[ijoinedarmysonowimsmart]

:whistle:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Chelle

Originally posted by Ilvane
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

-A

No one said you said anything about the U.S. elections. Gawd. He is pointing out your continued negativity towards the admin now. Basically he wants you to put your money where your mouth is or shut up. I think.

It was more than just a simple innocent article posting, or else you could have worded it like this:

"Are they going to be able to have elections in January?" instead of adding the little blanketed statement/question at the end for that extra punch.

Understand what he's talking about now?

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Chelle] If she is voicing her opinion in a negative manner about the current administration then she HAS A RIGHT TO. I might get tired of reading the same ole same ole after a while but if she is reporting half-truths, call her on it. If not, how about you put up or shut up. Seriously, people in this country need to understand that voicing opinions is just that, an opinion. Educated ones are even better but as a common goal we/she is exercising a right. If you don't like what she has to say.... she should shut up... why? Because you say so. Ummm, no.

The point is, the Bush administration did state that elections were to be held in January. Most of us are going off of information that has come from our administration first hand or through new sources. If this information is not viable it should not be shelled out to the American people. Half of us can't fathom an election taking place with the atmosphere the way it currently is. Now, if they do happen, that will be great. If not, it will just be another notch on the list of unprepardness the administration gone into this war demonstrating.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah... the notion that because an election was lost she somehow has no right to speak is damn ridiculous.

http://alertswp.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0600&id=2004110807590002 126100

Of course he only said it this way because he is a American pawn. Right?


"I gave my authority to the multinational forces, Iraqi forces. We are determined to clean Falluja from the terrorists," Allawi told a news conference in Baghdad.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Dave]

[Warriorbird]

So... all the Iraqis are going to get to vote, right?

Do all americans vote? what a stupid question.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
If she is voicing her opinion in a negative manner about the current administration then she HAS A RIGHT TO. The contention was that she was voicing a negative opinion, not whether or not she was allowed to.
Originally posted by GSTamral
I'm NOT going to stop and get off your case the same way you won't get off the current administration's case. It is as much my own right to free speech as yours

[Warriorbird]

What a stupid response, Dave! Our country wasn't recently invaded. To really be a free election, you'd need to allow people to actually have a chance to vote even if they don't agree with the invasion.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
What a stupid response, Dave! Our country wasn't recently invaded. To really be a free election, you'd need to allow people to actually have a chance to vote even if they don't agree with the invasion.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Warriorbird]

Is there some story out there that claims that some Iraqis won't be able to vote or are you simply making this stuff up as you go along?

[Warriorbird]

I was just thinking of the large number of Iraqis that we're attacking in Falluja...

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
If she is voicing her opinion in a negative manner about the current administration then she HAS A RIGHT TO. The contention was that she was voicing a negative opinion, not whether or not she was allowed to. This just made me chuckle. What does it matter if the opinion is negative or positive? I said she has a right to in response to the, "put up or shut up" statement which was certainly not expressing an aire of Democracy. I could care less if its positive or negative...it can be expressed.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I was just thinking of the large number of Iraqis that we're attacking in Falluja...

Yea.. there is a rule that most use (well except the Democrats) and that is: Dead people do not get to vote.

Dear Dave.. please edit your post to reflect this ground breaking election reform.

Thanks.

[Warriorbird]

Well...if a portion of the country's still fighting... you'd think that there's some opposition that's getting a little, "squelched."

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Well...if a portion of the country's still fighting... you'd think that there's some opposition that's getting a little, "squelched."

Christ Warriorbird.. how fucking bleeding heart liberal can you be? You realize who these people we are fighting are right? They are the remaining pocket of Saddam loyalists who for the past 20 years have basically done whatever they wanted in the country. Of COURSE they are opposed to a Democratic society!

You sound like the dumb fucks who want us to count the votes of people in Jail now... because even though they killed 3 people.. they should still have rights!!

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
You sound like the dumb fucks who want us to count the votes of people in Jail now... because even though they killed 3 people.. they should still have rights!! Actually, around 650,000 plus who are waiting to go to trail or are already serving sentences, usually for misdemeanor crimes, are already eligible to vote. Less than half exercise that right because they don't know. Also, voting rights vary from state to state. In Maine, a convicted murderer could vote while still in prison, but in Virginia, someone arrested for selling drugs when he was 18 may never vote again.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Parkbandit]

Just another part of election reform this country needs. In federal elections, the same rules should apply federally.

And anyone who is currently in jail should not be allowed to vote. Period.

[Warriorbird]

Missing the point, Parkbandit.

And no, I think I hardly qualify as a "bleeding heart" liberal. It's just funny to hear talk of political and religious freedom when we've got ground troops suppressing all of their opposition.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Missing the point, Parkbandit.

And no, I think I hardly qualify as a "bleeding heart" liberal. It's just funny to hear talk of political and religious freedom when we've got ground troops suppressing all of their opposition.

We're not trying to suppress their ideals.. WE ARE TRYING TO FUCKING KILL THEM.

That's what happens in war.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
What does it matter if the opinion is negative or positive?I dunno. However, the comment was made that her post was negatively spun, which she denied, thus the argument. The "put up or shut up" was challenging the strength of her convictions, not her freedom of speech, if I read it correctly.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Chelle
No one said you said anything about the U.S. elections. Gawd. He is pointing out your continued negativity towards the admin now. Basically he wants you to put your money where your mouth is or shut up. I think.

It was more than just a simple innocent article posting, or else you could have worded it like this:

"Are they going to be able to have elections in January?" instead of adding the little blanketed statement/question at the end for that extra punch.

Understand what he's talking about now?

:rolleyes:

[Edited on 11-7-2004 by Chelle] If she is voicing her opinion in a negative manner about the current administration then she HAS A RIGHT TO. I might get tired of reading the same ole same ole after a while but if she is reporting half-truths, call her on it. If not, how about you put up or shut up. Seriously, people in this country need to understand that voicing opinions is just that, an opinion. Educated ones are even better but as a common goal we/she is exercising a right. If you don't like what she has to say.... she should shut up... why? Because you say so. Ummm, no.

The point is, the Bush administration did state that elections were to be held in January. Most of us are going off of information that has come from our administration first hand or through new sources. If this information is not viable it should not be shelled out to the American people. Half of us can't fathom an election taking place with the atmosphere the way it currently is. Now, if they do happen, that will be great. If not, it will just be another notch on the list of unprepardness the administration gone into this war demonstrating.

:clap:

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
What does it matter if the opinion is negative or positive?I dunno. However, the comment was made that her post was negatively spun, which she denied, thus the argument. The "put up or shut up" was challenging the strength of her convictions, not her freedom of speech, if I read it correctly. Her convictions are very strong already and are backed by more than just herself. So yea, we read it very differently.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I dunno. However, the comment was made that her post was negatively spun, which she denied, thus the argument. The "put up or shut up" was challenging the strength of her convictions, not her freedom of speech, if I read it correctly.

Latrin - this post isn't really directed at you - but since you said the above here's some food for thought:

This is what Angela said:

State of Emergency in Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

So what do you think? Are they going to be able to have elections in January as the Bush administration and military have promised?

--

Tamral is the one who originally blasted Angela for her imaginary crime of posting an innocent question that really was just another bash against the President. Our resident non-voter wants people to think he's extra hot shit and so he has challenged her to a bet, when she politely turned him down previously, he has now reacted like a jilted lover out to exact his revenge. Chelle bumbled onto the conversation and tried to help and ended up just adding more fuel to the fire.

I don't think that Angela was trying to say anything beyond her original post, what is up. Let's be honest here- just because the president won doesn't mean that people are going to shut up and never talk about how things are going/not going and what's happening. 48% of the US voted against the guy - we're not changing our views in six days and some of us may never change em. If all comments that are negative are viewed as whining and not being able to move on - then we have a long four years ahead of us.

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, we have had a death in our family today - and well...life sucks.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Rank is rather irrelevant when you're being shot at and returning fire don't you think?

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Tsa`ah]

Rank is far from irrelevant in combat. When you are taking fire, rank becomes even more important. The initial reaction is to go with your training, seek cover, and return fire. It is then up to the fire team leaders to direct that fire on the enemy, the squad leaders direct those fire teams, the platoon sergeant, and platoon commander directs the squads, the company commander directs the platoons, and so on up the chain of command. Contrary to what you seem to belive, combat is not a free for all, it is not every man for himself.

[Chelle]

TRL yes you summed it up quite nicely. Though I don't exactly agree about bumbling into the conversation, and yes was just trying to help. Ah well sooo much for that.

Sorry to hear about a death in your family. Our prayers and thoughts are with you. It is always hard to deal with and yes your post made perfect sense.

[Latrinsorm]

Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss.
Originally posted by TheRoseLady
If all comments that are negative are viewed as whining and not being able to move onI never said Tamral made sense. However, I don't think it was ever an issue of whether she was allowed to talk. Instead, it was a disagreement over the tone of Ilvane's first post. I'm sure Tamral will correct me if he meant otherwise (right after he gets that thing that Raven is after him on, no doubt).

[DeV]

So, someone had a problem with the tone of her post? I could see if the problem was with the content of her post.

If any of us expressed ourselves based on what tone would be best suited to cater to the reader, we would all be fucked somehow.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Chelle
TRL yes you summed it up quite nicely. Though I don't exactly agree about bumbling into the conversation, and yes was just trying to help. Ah well sooo much for that.



Chelle,

Sorry about that, I am inserting the foot in today a little more than normal. What I meant was that you kind of got caught in a mess that you didn't create and I was trying to illustrate that you were trying to help. Hope that made sense.

Latrin - you made me laugh.

Thank you both for the kind words.

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I was just thinking of the large number of Iraqis that we're attacking in Falluja...

ParkBandit put it quite well, but I will add some.

Lets say we are able to go in and peacefully arrest all of the nice men in Falluja. Lets say they surrender and we put them on trail. What laws would they break? Lets just look at what they are doing... They are shooting fucking RPG's at people, Firing thousands of rounds of 7.62 ammo at people. We need to set up polling places in the middle of a firefight, yep your right Warriorbird, I wish I would have seen it your way sooner....
Im sorry for the loss of composure that is going to follow this...
Fucking moron.
Again I am sorry for that.

[Warriorbird]

I'm so impressed, Dave. Wouldn't you be shooting a "fucking RPG" at someone if they invaded your country? Do I think they're paragons of humanity? No. Do I think they're particularly nice? No. I do think it's a joke to suggest that we're holding "free and democratic" elections however when I'm sure that anyone who holds different viewpoints from the administration will be excluded from the ballot.

If anyone who holds a disagreeing viewpoint is a, "fucking moron." I wonder what you think about the democratic process that you fight to protect.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Dave
We need to set up polling places in the middle of a firefight......

You just admitted that WE have to set up polling places, when just several posts ago you were shouting that we have no say in the elections. So we're just doing the grunt work while Alawi dictates the status of the elections, right? Gimme a break.

You see, I don't have any issue in whether the elections come off in January or not - to me it's not really an indication that Bush is a big loser or anything of the sort - delays happen. Insurgency happens. But to sit around here and try to tell intelligent adults that the US has no say or responsibility for the elections is naive. Yes, ultimately the interim government has the say - but who's going to make it safe so they can have em? Who's going to hopefully come and set up the elections and oversee them? The UN.

Dave, you have a very simple view of things that can be very complex.

[Parkbandit]

I don't get what people are debating here.

If the elections happen in January.. is that a good thing?

If they are postponed due to unrest for a month or two.. is that a bad thing?

I realize the Democratic Propaganda Machine will have responses for both.. if they happen successfully in January "The elections are just being pushed through, even though the country is not ready for them!" If they are postponed "SEE! WE TOLD YOU BUSH CANNOT BE TRUSTED! HE BROKE A CAMPAIGN PROMISE!"

I think the important thing is to get the country ready for elections whenever they happen. We need to present the Iraq people a united front that says the American people are behind this election and that we are all behind the success of the Iraqi Democractic Government. That we will do what it takes to ensure the freedom of the Iraqi people.

You may not agree with this war.. but we are already there. Leaving now would be suicide to the fragile Democracy and certainly thrust the country into civil war.

[TheRoseLady]

I agree with everything you said PB. (In that last post... ;)

I am merely saying to Dave that him shouting at the top of his lungs that Bush doesn't have a say about the elections is very simple minded.

[CrystalTears]

Okay you two. Stop agreeing, it's freaking me out. :P

[Parkbandit]

Yea.. me too!

What's next.. me and Ilvane agreeing?

I'm not ready for that!!!

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Parkbandit]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Okay you two. Stop agreeing, it's freaking me out. :P

Perhaps it's a new chapter in an old book. :yes:

[Chelle]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Chelle
TRL yes you summed it up quite nicely. Though I don't exactly agree about bumbling into the conversation, and yes was just trying to help. Ah well sooo much for that.



Chelle,

Sorry about that, I am inserting the foot in today a little more than normal. What I meant was that you kind of got caught in a mess that you didn't create and I was trying to illustrate that you were trying to help. Hope that made sense.

Latrin - you made me laugh.

Thank you both for the kind words.

:) No need to apologize!! I understand what you were saying. And you are certainly welcome.

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
I agree with everything you said PB. (In that last post... ;)

I am merely saying to Dave that him shouting at the top of his lungs that Bush doesn't have a say about the elections is very simple minded.

see now im getting frustrated. The AMERICAN GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE A SAY IN WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, HOW AND SOMETIMES WHY THE ELLECTIONS WILL TAKE PLACE.

THAT IS UP TO THE IRAQI INTERM GOVERNMENT.
LEARN THIS, UNDERSTAND THIS, FIND THIS OUT FOR YOURSELVES, BUT FIGURE IT OUT.

[Edited on 11-9-2004 by Dave]

[TheRoseLady]

Dave - stop yelling like a child. If you can't even type out a post without going off - then you will be relegated to the pile of folks who get ignored.

You have demonstrated that you are INCAPABLE of understanding the complexity of the elections, Dave. I don't give a damn what they told you in warrior school - perhaps 20 years of life experiences might teach you to have a bit of common sense. Common sense is that - WE are responsible for making it safe enough to have them, you even stated as much. The UN is supposed to help get the elections done - so it doesn't matter one damn bit if the interim government is in full control of the big "decision"- NOTHING will happen without a concerted effort that involves the United States and here's the big bonus question for the night - who is in charge of our government, Dave? You're right, Bush.

Open your eyes and your mind. You can't possibly be that blind. But then again, after seeing WB and Tsa'ah trying to make sense of your posts...I am beginning to wonder.

20 years of life experence in america, please you little to nothing of the culture over there or how things are run

We are training their military so they will be able to do it on their own.
WE are fighting side by side with the Iraqi National Guard right now, and for once they are not running away.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Dave
20 years of life experence in america, please you little to nothing of the culture over there or how things are run

We are training their military so they will be able to do it on their own.
WE are fighting side by side with the Iraqi National Guard right now, and for once they are not running away.

WTF does that have to do with what I said? Let me paint it on your forehead so when you look in the mirror you can remember this. I meant life experience in this country - like in your life. Expand your brain a little, learn about life.

And you haven't been there either, so you don't know any more than what they tell you in warrior school.

Dave - you need to pick a topic that you actually excel at and stick with it, common sense is apparently not one of them.

Warrior school? I'm not sure where you get that from, but thats okay.
I know the setup for what is going on over there. I know a bit about the laws that the military is reqired to follow. Your life experence here means nothing.
Its a pointless argument though, you are so against this adminstration and what our government is trying to do over there you hope things dont go well. Perhaps not on the outside, and you will not admit to the fact though its obvious to some.

We will have to wait and see wont we, I will be sure to save a smug smile for you when the time comes.

[Edited on 11-9-2004 by Dave]

[Warriorbird]

Calm down there, hey. At this point you're not even debating the same thing she is.

[TheRoseLady]

Dave,

I have one simple little rule that you should always remember:

It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and erase all doubt.

[Ravenstorm]

So was that one mocha latte and two cappucinos or one cappucino and two lattes?

Raven

[CrystalTears]

Whoa Dave, what the hell are they feeding you over there? Lighten up just a little bit, alright.

No matter what you say or do, you can't deny that 55 million people did not want Bush back in office. Those people will continue to speak out their opinions and feelings on the matter until a) Bush pulls a rabbit out of his ass to make things better in Iraq or b) 2008. Sure there are better and nicer ways to say things, but for them, it doesn't make it any less true.

Perhaps Bush doesn't have the DIRECT say in when the elections will be run, such as stating, "The elections won't be held in January." However, the administration along with the military decide what actions occur there. If a decision made by Bush's administration causes the election to be postponed, well you know what? They can easily say that Bush had a hand in the elections being postponed. Whether we agree or not with that sentiment is up to us, but I'm sure for them, that's how it is viewed.

The yelling and incomprehensible posting and ranting is not going to help people see your side. I like you Dave, but now you're behaving like a spoiled child because no one is playing the game you want to play. Sooner or later you have to admit that Bush's administration has it's fucked up areas. Admit that things aren't being done in the best way over there. My hopes are that he will make things better, others don't have the view. That's their choice. You can't make them change their mind. It's all in BUSH'S hands to change their mind and respect him again. It's not your job, it's his. He fucked up in some areas, he needs to fix it.

Patriotism for your president and country is noble and all, but be smart in your tactics.

*gets off her soapbox*

[longshot]

Originally posted by Dave

THAT IS UP TO THE IRAQI INTERM GOVERNMENT.
LEARN THIS, UNDERSTAND THIS, FIND THIS OUT FOR YOURSELVES, BUT FIGURE IT OUT.



RAAAAAAAARRHHRHHHR!!!

FREEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

:lol:

By the way, what does the Iraqi interim government, and "Crank Yankers" have in common?

[Tsa`ah]

The point Davie boy is missing is simply that there's only so much autonomy we're willing to give. The government currently in place is the government that was willing to play ball. The folks we already had in mind.

Do you think we're going to let a zealot be on the ballot?

I'm sorry Dave; the world does not play by the rules even 25% of the time, the US even less.

So in a word ... Puppets.

If rank impresses you ... Second Lt, and an E9

[CrystalTears]

I didn't know the Iraqi interim government made crank calls through naked puppets?! I never would have guessed. :P

[longshot]

They import large quantities of chapstick to deal with the chafing caused by the incessant barrage of hands reaching up through their asses to move their lips...

Oh,... it's all on the interim Iraqi government...

RIIIIGHT...

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I didn't know the Iraqi interim government made crank calls through naked puppets?! I never would have guessed. :P

Adam Corolla is to Bircham as the US is to the burgeoning Iraqi government.

[CrystalTears]

:lol:

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Whoa Dave, what the hell are they feeding you over there? Lighten up just a little bit, alright.

No matter what you say or do, you can't deny that 55 million people did not want Bush back in office. Those people will continue to speak out their opinions and feelings on the matter until a) Bush pulls a rabbit out of his ass to make things better in Iraq or b) 2008. Sure there are better and nicer ways to say things, but for them, it doesn't make it any less true.

Perhaps Bush doesn't have the DIRECT say in when the elections will be run, such as stating, "The elections won't be held in January." However, the administration along with the military decide what actions occur there. If a decision made by Bush's administration causes the election to be postponed, well you know what? They can easily say that Bush had a hand in the elections being postponed. Whether we agree or not with that sentiment is up to us, but I'm sure for them, that's how it is viewed.

The yelling and incomprehensible posting and ranting is not going to help people see your side. I like you Dave, but now you're behaving like a spoiled child because no one is playing the game you want to play. Sooner or later you have to admit that Bush's administration has it's fucked up areas. Admit that things aren't being done in the best way over there. My hopes are that he will make things better, others don't have the view. That's their choice. You can't make them change their mind. It's all in BUSH'S hands to change their mind and respect him again. It's not your job, it's his. He fucked up in some areas, he needs to fix it.

Patriotism for your president and country is noble and all, but be smart in your tactics.

*gets off her soapbox*

Who i spresident is insignificant to me, what annoys me is the people making comments when they are unwilling to know the whole situation that is going on over there. Much of the problems present are because we are not allowed go and bomb a safe house because we recieved information from a valid source that terrorist/insurgant so and so is there. One of the problems with a battle like this is time. We as a military are required to go and get an A OK from the iraqi interm government before we are able to do anything. By the time re recieve said OKAY it is already to late and the infomation we have recived is old news. The government over there is considering putting Al-Sadar on the ballot, somebody a year ago we were searching for to put up on murder charges. Do we as americans want that to happen, no. Do we have a choice or a say in his being allowed on the ballot? No that is up to the Iraqi government. What a lot of you dont seem to understand is that there are a lot of people from america over there to help the Iraqi people. Many of those willing people have died for them to have the same freedoms we have. To be pesimistic about what is going on over there at every turn does more harm than good. Dont you realize that when you say things like, "its fucked up over there things are not going to work" "they are to screwed up they wont hold the elections" that it may affect the mindset of the soldiers over there. Do you remember when the government was handed power? Many of the Bush-haters had the same mindsent, its not going to work, they are just a puppet government, its just symbolic, None of those people really looked into the situation, none of them have paid attention to the changes that have been made over there. I joined up knowing where I was going, and knowing what was going on. I did so because I support we as Americans are doing now. You are damn right im going to be zealous about our actions because I am willing to put my life on the line for it. Come June-july next year I will be over there, and I will still be optomistic about what is going on because it its the right thign

[Warriorbird]

"Who i spresident is insignificant to me,"

Riight.

[Back]

Here we go again. I’ve had this convversation on the board a while back, but someone tell me how being for the war in Iraq, under the standard definition of why we went there, is not a bleeding heart for the Iraqi’s.

[Nieninque]

We as a military are required to go and get an A OK from the iraqi interm government before we are able to do anything.

Of course...Which is why the last time the Americans wanted to attack Falluja, the Iraqi leaders and international leaders were against it so it did not happen. However, the Americans have persisted in this need to do just that and as late as last week, the Americans were saying they were going into Falluja and the Iraqi Interim PM was saying no way. Now, strangely, everyone there is agreed that it needs to happen.

That doesnt sound much like the Americans getting an A OK, so much as the Americans saying "we dont give a fuck if you want us to do this, we think it's right so we are doing it anyway."

Havent we heard that before somewhere?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
So was that one mocha latte and two cappucinos or one cappucino and two lattes?

Raven

LMAO. Ok.. I just laughed out loud at work and got 2 looks.

Stop. Stop it now.

[Parkbandit]

Sorry Dave.. I can't even help you with your debate here.

To say the US has zero input into the Iraqi Government is silly beyond words. It IS a puppet Government (currently) and will remain that way as long as we have forces in that country. Certainly, there will be a day where I hope we can consider Iraq an independent country and ally.. but that time isn't now and won't be in January after the elections. It will take time... much like Germany, Italy and Japan took time after WWII.

Originally posted by Backlash
Here we go again. I’ve had this convversation on the board a while back, but someone tell me how being for the war in Iraq, under the standard definition of why we went there, is not a bleeding heart for the Iraqi’s.

I guess I am a bleeding heart then.

[CrystalTears]

Oh forget it, you're a lost cause. I'm very much FOR the war, always have been, but things haven't been done in the best way over there, even I'm not blind to that fact.

You know us being on this side of the world hasn't made us an expert on what's going on there cause we haven't seen it, but you being in the military for a couple of months, still on American soil, still doesn't make you one either. Chill out.

I never said that they have been done in the best way CT. But we are limited in what we can and can not do, thats what I am saying.

[Back]

I don’t know, Dave. Maybe you are. Maybe I am for not wanting needless innocent civilian deaths. Regardless, it has me asking this question again. One that has been asked over and over.

Why are we in Iraq?

To help the Iraqi people overthrow a dictator they did not want?

To topple an evil dictator we did not want?

To insure there would be and will not be WMDs?

Because Saddam danced around UN resolutions?

Because Iraq is linked with 911?

In our war on terror, Iraq was a main harborer and funder of terrorists?

To get their oil?

All of the above?


The way I see it, its more about Americans than Iraqis. I am the bleeding heart who feels for the innocents in this conflict. A conflict that I feel was either premature, or possibly unneccesary altogether. Thats why I oppose it.

minus the to get their oil and because they were responsable for 9/11, yes.
I agree with you as well, that it is about Americans. It is our war on terror. Iraq is a step in that war. it will not end with Iraq, once we are done there we will move on and continue the fight. The great thing about it is, we are able to help them as well. We are able to give them the freedom that we so shelfishly enjoy here. We are laying down their lives, just as they Iraqi people are laying down their lives for that freedom. You need to remember, the news only shows you the bad, not all the good, not the ways we have better the lives of people over there. Simple things like fixing the towns water pump, or moving a few rocks from here to there that they would not be able to do. More complex things like setting up their first real elections in decades.
That is... i gotta go have formation.. i can continue later

[Edited on 11-9-2004 by Dave]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Do you think we're going to let a zealot be on the ballot? Wait, which election are we talking about? :saint:
Originally posted by Nieninque
as late as last week, the Americans were saying they were going into Falluja and the Iraqi Interim PM was saying no way.That's odd, I specifically remember the PM saying that the window of negotiation (with Fallujah) was closing in that same time frame.