TWC Brawling

[SpiffyJr]

Is it possible? If it is possible, is it THAT hard to pull off? I'm a fairly casual player but I like to do things other's don't. I'm currently ranged/brawling but it seems like everyone and their mother is ranged/brawling. I have to be 2x brawling, for RP reasons, so I was considering an ambushing twc brawler. How would I fair with Voln-Fu and two sais/blackjacks/flaring whatevers?

[Stanley Burrell]

Sai + sai/main-gauche.

Hooray.

[FinisWolf]

I hated this build myself. I hate plinking shit to death. And when I say plink, I mean plink.

I did like my twc katar build though.

Finis

[Stanley Burrell]

I hated this build myself. I hate plinking shit to death. And when I say plink, I mean plink.

Finis

1605 + know what doesn't wear plate armors, yo. You want the bucket filled in record time? You got it (as in, if you research the beastiary for half a picosecond.)

[Stunseed]

If you're in Voln, you can pretty much kick ass well into your 60's in the build. As a Ranger, however, going for the Katar is simply not a smart idea unless you're well past cap with the TP.

Dual sai's like TMNT or razorpaws, maybe paingrips. Good imagery.

[SpiffyJr]

I tried to build Katars and it's just not viable. How well do Sai's to the eye work compared to, say, an arrow to the eye?

[Stanley Burrell]

I tried to build Katars and it's just not viable. How well do Sai's to the eye work compared to, say, an arrow to the eye?

Always puncture. Don't ambush. Trust me. Just get dual flaring and swing for 4 seconds like you ain't never whooped some ass.

[Gnomad]

Dual sai's like TMNT or razorpaws, maybe paingrips. Good imagery.When I was still playing, one of my favorite characters was my gimmicky half-elf thug (TWC rogue) who only used brass knuckles.

He was about as effective as an umbrella in a hurricane, but I always felt like he oozed style.

[Stunseed]

Well, here's the thing...

Rangers can easily 2x brawl/TWC. I just wouldn't use weapons, personally. I've thought about going 2x armor, 2x PF, 2x brawl and going nuts. Elrodin's original player and I used to talk shit to each other constantly at who's build was better, and honestly while mine worked better in the long run due to the gaps of undead, I always envied how quick he could kill things.

[Anebriated]

heh really? I was always jealous that you could take blows as well as you could. I would have killed for some of your defensive ability and debated many a times on switching to your build. Guess thats the perk of each one. I was always very proud about my path though, seems its caught on pretty well these days.

also, those undead gaps where why i trained in ranged :)

[Anebriated]

I miss elrodin :(

[Stunseed]

Yours is more popular, though even reverting back to 4x weapon/shield as you were back then I'm still holding my own in OTF. 3 deaths in 4 trains isn't a bad track record, I think.

I also moved up to hauberk for the pimp, though I'm still a firm believer of augmented chain as a ranger's staple of armor.

[SpiffyJr]

So, what were each of your builds, respectively? As far as armor, I'm currently sitting in some altered FGB that I love dearly so I won't be moving up anytime soon.

[SpiffyJr]

Oh, in case you're curious... I'm currently level 34.

Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 99 (29) ... 99 (29)
Constitution (CON): 59 (4) ... 59 (4)
Dexterity (DEX): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Agility (AGI): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Discipline (DIS): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Aura (AUR): 97 (23) ... 97 (23)
Logic (LOG): 77 (18) ... 77 (18)
Intuition (INT): 77 (18) ... 77 (18)
Wisdom (WIS): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Influence (INF): 35 (-7) ... 35 (-7)
Mana: 90 Silver: 214

Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 120 30 30
Shield Use.........................| 25 5.068 0 1 day, 0 hours, 31 minutes
Combat Maneuvers...................| 10 2.557 0 12 hours, 47 minutes
Ranged Weapons.....................| 170 70 70
Brawling...........................| 170 70 70
Ambush.............................| 130 35 35
Physical Fitness...................| 130 35 35
Dodging............................| 78 17 17
Harness Power......................| 128 34 34
Spirit Mana Control................| 30 6.068 0 1 day, 21 hours, 21 minutes
Survival...........................| 130 35 35
Stalking and Hiding................| 170 70 70
Perception.........................| 170 70 70
Climbing...........................| 90 20 20
Swimming...........................| 25 5 5
First Aid..........................| 130 35 35

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 1 3 ASAP (will rise when points are available)

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 33 34 ASAP (will rise when points are available)

I wanted 101, 102, and 103 for the undead (TD, Barrier for Fu, and 103 DS) and will bring my spells back to 1x over the next few levels.

[Stunseed]

I went for overly physical. At 60, I had roughly 45% redux before we confirmed the formulae was not accurate. Once hitting OTF, I moved into hauberk for the griffin drops to the head. Without further ado...

Stunseed (at level 87), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 210 110
Shield Use.........................| 188 88
Combat Maneuvers...................| 210 110
Edged Weapons......................| 276 176
Ambush.............................| 187 87
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 188 88
Dodging............................| 188 88
Arcane Symbols.....................| 45 9
Magic Item Use.....................| 105 25
Harness Power......................| 187 87
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 90 20
Stalking and Hiding................| 188 88
Perception.........................| 187 87
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 30

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 50

[Anebriated]

I was archery/brawl. Heres my training from an old '04 post.

Level: 37 Deeds: 0
Experience: 1573735 Deaths this level: 4
Exp. until next: 2765 Death Recovery: 0
Mental TPs: 0 Fame: 5197850
Physical TPs: 9 Mana: 102/122 max
(12 Phy converted to Mnt)

Elrodin (at level 37), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 138 39
Ranged Weapons.....................| 178 78
Brawling...........................| 178 78
Ambush.............................| 138 39
Physical Fitness...................| 138 39
Dodging............................| 138 39
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 138 39
Survival...........................| 138 39
Stalking and Hiding................| 178 78
Perception.........................| 178 78
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 25 5

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 36
Training Points: 9 Phy 0 Mnt (12 Phy converted to Mnt)
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

[SpiffyJr]

Pretty much the same build as me.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

I actually had a brawling warrior I was playing after the unarmed combat system change was announced, that would generally fight unarmed. Ended up tossing on sanctified knuckles eventually, just for flavor, but his voln fu was pretty sweet. If you're going to go TWC Brawling, flaring yierka spurs + a rogue with haste imbeds = crazy.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Oh, also believe that a number of razern brawling weapons (primarily claws) have been all over the place. Pretty sure they were forged by some dude, but at any rate, the style points are there.

[SpiffyJr]

How much of a hit will my DS take dropping from ranged to brawling? How how many/what CMANs would I want? I should try to shoot for 1x training, I'm guessing, and maybe .5x dodge?

[SpiffyJr]

Eesh, after playing with the points, I don't know how to fit 2x brawl, 2x TWC (2x needed?), 1x CM and .5x dodge into the training. It just won't work.

[SpiffyJr]

Alright, how does this look?

Armor Use 30 (0.9X) 2 5 0 30
Brawling 68 (2.0X) 2 4 1 2x
Two Weapon Combat 51 (1.5X) 2 3 2 1.5x
Combat Maneuvers 34 (1.0X) 2 6 4 1x
Ambush 34 (1.0X) 2 3 3 1x
Physical Fitness 34 (1.0X) 2 4 0 1x
Dodging 17 (0.5X) 2 7 5 .5x
Climbing 10 (0.3X) 2 2 0 10
Swimming 5 (0.1X) 2 2 0 5
Stalking and Hiding 59 (1.7X) 2 2 1 1.75x
Perception 34 (1.0X) 2 0 2 1x
First Aid 34 (1.0X) 2 2 1 1x
Survival 34 (1.0X) 2 1 1 1x
Harness Power 33 (1.0X) 2 0 5 .99x

Ranger 34 (1.0X) 1x

[SpiffyJr]

Could I knix the dodging until I stop Ranger spells and then start training in it? Or should .5x be mandantory?

[Celephais]

Dodging nets you something like 0.6 DS per rank (I want to say that's in guarded, less in offensive), usually that won't make a massive impact unless you've skipped a lot of them, or didn't make up for the DS otherwise (remember ranger spell ranks up to level get you dodge ranks from mobility)

[Celephais]

Here are some numbers to help you see the value of dodging (from a discussion on armor type and shield effecting dodge ranks, follow the little arrow link in the quote next to my name to read the other info in that thread)



Mobility (618): +20 [102] dodge ranks [Ranger 100 spell ranks]
Blurs (911): +20 dodge ranks

Both of these are readily availible.

These 40 [122] ranks of dodge have the following DS benefit given the following circumstances (I'm unsure of rounding):

Dodge DS
Offensive Stance (0.75)
-Augmented Chain (0.920)
--Medium Shield (0.70)
--- (0.483000) * 40 [122] = +19.320 [58.92600] DS
--Tower Shield (0.50)
--- (0.345000) * 40 [122] = +13.800 [42.09000] DS
-Full Plate (0.825)
--Medium Shield (0.70)
--- (0.433125) * 40 [122] = +17.325 [52.84125] DS
--Tower Shield (0.50)
--- (0.309375) * 40 [122] = +12.375 [37.74375] DS
Defensive Stance (1.00)
-Augmented Chain (0.920)
--Medium Shield (0.70)
--- (0.644000) * 40 [122] = +25.760 [78.56200] DS
--Tower Shield (0.50)
--- (0.460000) * 40 [122] = +18.400 [56.12000] DS
-Full Plate (0.825)
--Medium Shield (0.70)
--- (0.577500) * 40 [122] = +23.100 [70.45500] DS
--Tower Shield (0.50)
--- (0.412500) * 40 [122] = +16.500 [50.32500] DS

Shield DS (0.667)
Offensive Stance (0.5)
-Medium Shield (1.0)
-- (0.3333)
-Tower Shield (1.3)
-- (0.4333)
Defensive Stance (1.0)
-Medium Shield (1.0)
-- (0.6667)
-Tower Shield (1.3)
-- (0.8667)

Parry DS
Offensive Stance (0.2)
Defensive Stance (0.7)

So in Stun's case dodge ranks provide 0.483/0.644 DS per rank, and the shield ranks provided 0.333/0.667 DS per rank. There are no diminishing returns on defensive skill ranks. I would say that since offensive DS is more important than defensive DS that 1x/1x will producer better DS than 2x/0x Shield/Dodge.

For Bigby’s case (adding parry), you’re considering 3x/2.4x/2x vs 0x/3.4x/3x (shield/dodge/parry) essentially. So in the shield case, lets find out what shield is best.
Offensive (shield/dodge)
Tower: 3 * 0.4333 + 2.4 * 0.309 = 2.042 DS per level
Large: 3 * 0.3833 + 2.4 * 0.371 = 2.040
Medium: 3 * 0.3333 + 2.4 * 0.433 = 2.039 DS per level
Small: 3 * 2833 + 2.4 * 0.495 = 2.038 DS per level

I’m not going to do defensive because it’ll favor larger shields more and Tower already won (a 0.5 jump for shields vs a 0.25 jump for dodge).
Defensive Tower
3 * 0.8667 + 2.4 * 0.4125 = 3.6 DS per level

So the OHE/Shield plan favors Tower shields, and when we add on the parry DS we get:
Offensive: 2.442 DS per level
Defensive: 5.0 DS per level

As for the dodge plan we get Parry DS of 0.6/2.1 DS per level Off/Def.

Lets add on the dodge DS
Offensive: 3.4 * 0.61875 + 0.6 = 2.704 DS per level
Defensive: 3.4 * 0.825 + 2.1 = 4.905 DS per level

This all assumes you’ve got blurs and mobility constantly, so in offensive stance 3x dodge and a 2H weapon actually produce more DS. But how EBP suffers I'm not sure...

But you'll always lose out when you add in the flat bonuses for the shield, especially a 10x.

[nocturnix]

I was archery/brawl. Heres my training from an old '04 post.

Level: 37 Deeds: 0
Experience: 1573735 Deaths this level: 4
Exp. until next: 2765 Death Recovery: 0
Mental TPs: 0 Fame: 5197850
Physical TPs: 9 Mana: 102/122 max
(12 Phy converted to Mnt)

Elrodin (at level 37), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 138 39
Ranged Weapons.....................| 178 78
Brawling...........................| 178 78
Ambush.............................| 138 39
Physical Fitness...................| 138 39
Dodging............................| 138 39
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 138 39
Survival...........................| 138 39
Stalking and Hiding................| 178 78
Perception.........................| 178 78
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 25 5

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 36
Training Points: 9 Phy 0 Mnt (12 Phy converted to Mnt)
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Dang, and here i naively thought i was somehow being origional. I'm going more heavily in ambush training however, plan to mostly pluck eyes with my sai, and voln fu.

As for adding ranged, never thought about that. What are these gaps you speak of? (my mutant ranger is only 13)

[nocturnix]

Originally Posted by Anebriated View Post
I was archery/brawl. Heres my training from an old '04 post.

Level: 37 Deeds: 0
Experience: 1573735 Deaths this level: 4
Exp. until next: 2765 Death Recovery: 0
Mental TPs: 0 Fame: 5197850
Physical TPs: 9 Mana: 102/122 max
(12 Phy converted to Mnt)

Elrodin (at level 37), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 138 39
Ranged Weapons.....................| 178 78
Brawling...........................| 178 78
Ambush.............................| 138 39
Physical Fitness...................| 138 39
Dodging............................| 138 39
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 138 39
Survival...........................| 138 39
Stalking and Hiding................| 178 78
Perception.........................| 178 78
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 25 5

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 36
Training Points: 9 Phy 0 Mnt (12 Phy converted to Mnt)
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

I am rerolling my young brawling ranger to fix his stats. I am going the "Elrodin" route which i thought was somewhat origional until i found this thread. I will be going full brawl, ambush, hide with the plan to ambush eyes with my perfect sai.

I have a few questions:

1. What do you think of my stat allocation?

2. Do i need shield training at low levels? I noticed in Elrodins template he has 0 shield training. Does your DS suffer with just a sai in my hand and nothing else?

(I am not going TWC sais, just one sai).

My plan is to ambush eyes, use spells, and or cmans to bring down bigger targets. Voln Fu And possibly use ranged if i get to a gap.

Name: XXXX Race: Sylvankind Profession: Ranger (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 635 Level: 0
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Constitution (CON): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)
Dexterity (DEX): 90 (30) ... 90 (30)
Agility (AGI): 70 (15) ... 70 (15)
Discipline (DIS): 55 (-3) ... 55 (-3)
Aura (AUR): 60 (10) ... 60 (10)
Logic (LOG): 75 (12) ... 75 (12)
Intuition (INT): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Wisdom (WIS): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)
Influence (INF): 20 (-15) ... 20 (-15)

Advice?

[Silvanostar]

I am rerolling my young brawling ranger to fix his stats. I am going the "Elrodin" route which i thought was somewhat origional until i found this thread. I will be going full brawl, ambush, hide with the plan to ambush eyes with my perfect sai.

I have a few questions:

1. What do you think of my stat allocation?

2. Do i need shield training at low levels? I noticed in Elrodins template he has 0 shield training. Does your DS suffer with just a sai in my hand and nothing else?

(I am not going TWC sais, just one sai).

My plan is to ambush eyes, use spells, and or cmans to bring down bigger targets. Voln Fu And possibly use ranged if i get to a gap.

Name: XXXX Race: Sylvankind Profession: Ranger (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 635 Level: 0
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Constitution (CON): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)
Dexterity (DEX): 90 (30) ... 90 (30)
Agility (AGI): 70 (15) ... 70 (15)
Discipline (DIS): 55 (-3) ... 55 (-3)
Aura (AUR): 60 (10) ... 60 (10)
Logic (LOG): 75 (12) ... 75 (12)
Intuition (INT): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Wisdom (WIS): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)
Influence (INF): 20 (-15) ... 20 (-15)

Advice?

as far as stats go, if you arent planning for long term growth, i guess the stat placement is ok.

as far as the "elrodin" template, its pretty much the standard archer/brawler build. what makes this build so great is that if you go with voln, you can ditch your ambush and hiding allowing you to pick up other skills.

if you don't have a shield in your hand your ds will obviously suffer. brawling allows you to have an open hand while giving you some ds

[nocturnix]

Thanks for the feedback.

Not planning for long term growth. I dont see this character getting past 40 so the stats are for short-term fun.

[Silvanostar]

well, that maybe true, but when you see how incredibly powerful kick is against undead, and your mb vs undead mb, you might reconsider.

[nocturnix]

Reconsider playing the character more? Or reconsider my stats?

I looked up kick MB it is calculated as following:

Throw MB = Brawling Skill * 20/17 (rounded) + Perception Skill/20 + Agility Bonus/2 + Dexterity Bonus/2 + Strength Bonus/5

Kick MB = Throw MB + # of Completed Voln Steps

That being said, should I have put more stat points into Agility to raise the AGIL bonus? Do you have any suggestions to optomize my stats better for voln fu? In the relatively short term?

I am not a hardcore player and my oldest char is 40.

[Silvanostar]

reconsider to both

also undead mb is ridiculously low so it doesnt matter

for example soul golems have a mb of about 150ish. at that level your mb would be atleast 300

[nocturnix]

As of level 7...

Name: XXXX Race: Sylvankind Profession: Ranger (shown as: Forester)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 64543 Level: 7
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 96 (23) ... 96 (23)
Constitution (CON): 53 (1) ... 53 (1)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Agility (AGI): 73 (16) ... 73 (16)
Discipline (DIS): 57 (-2) ... 57 (-2)
Aura (AUR): 62 (11) ... 62 (11)
Logic (LOG): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Intuition (INT): 97 (23) ... 97 (23)
Wisdom (WIS): 53 (1) ... 53 (1)
Influence (INF): 26 (-12) ... 26 (-12)

------------------

Armor Use..........................| 35 7
Shield Use.........................| 35 7
Combat Maneuvers...................| 40 8
Brawling...........................| 82 18
Ambush.............................| 45 9
Physical Fitness...................| 40 8
Dodging............................| 40 8
Harness Power......................| 40 8
Survival...........................| 40 8
Stalking and Hiding................| 66 14
Perception.........................| 40 8
Climbing...........................| 40 8

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 3

Spell Lists
Ranger.............................| 6


I spent a little extra on spells at this lower level to help me hunt selfbuffed. I will even it out probably after i get 216 or so. Obviously this isnt perfect yet as i am still lower level and training point allocation isnt perfect yet, but this is the general idea of the build im going for. Once I need ranged, I will probably fixskill into it. Or I will start picking it up when i have TPs to blow.

[Izzy]

You need to teach me how to learn major spiritual spells as a ranger. That would be handy as hell.