Citizens United comes out against McCain

[ClydeR]

The Citizens United Political Victory Fund (http://www.cupvf.org), a PAC for Citizens United (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Citizens_United), announced a national television advertising campaign to inform voters about John McCain's real record. The first ad is online (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGTJDAAHCnQ) and will begin airing nationally tonight. The group had intended that most of its efforts in 2008 would be aimed at Hillary Clinton, but they have been forced to refocus on McCain.

I typed the audio part of the ad, in case you can't watch it. It's a lot more fun to watch it with the scary music and pictures of Hillary and McCain.


One candidate voted against the Bush tax cuts--both times--and pushed more restrictions on gun owners' rights.

The same candidate joined Ted Kennedy to sponsor amnesty for illegals and was even mentioned as a running mate with John Kerry.

Hillary Clinton? No. John McCain. John McCain--surprisingly liberal.

[Ilvane]

Oh...the conservative move on.org? LOL

Pathetic.

[Warriorbird]

I think Republicans being anti McCain is great. It'd be wonderful for the Democrats if they ran Romney or Huckabee.

Why dislike McCain? No Republican is really fiscally conservative these days anyways.

[Gan]

I seriously hope ClydeR keeps posting here on the PC for a long time. His posts are to our entertainment like mana from heaven.

:lol:

[BigWorm]

From ClydeR's link:

The Donatelli Group, which produced the RNC website[19], also created the SWIFTBOATVETSFORTRUTH.ORG website July 30, 2004, with Connell Donatelli Inc.[20] (a.k.a. The Donatelli Group) as Registrant. Connell Donatelli Inc. was also listed as both Administrator and the Tech Organization for the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth website.[21]
So this is from the same people behind Swiftboat Veterans for Truth and has probably just as little credibility.

[Warriorbird]

The resident Republicans sure enjoyed the Swiftboat stuff.

[ClydeR]

I seriously hope ClydeR keeps posting here on the PC for a long time.

Definitely adding that to my scrapbook (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=674215&postcount=4) of encouraging things people have said about my posts.

On a serious note, there is an indirect connection between Citizens United and President Bush and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth organization. Those in the know will recognize this move by Citizens United as a nod from the Republican establishment to Romney. It's a poorly kept secret that the Bush family supports Romney.

[Parkbandit]

Oh...the conservative move on.org? LOL

Pathetic.


I love how you find this pathetic.. but clearly subscribe to the stupidity of moveon.org.

You are a walking political joke... thanks for letting us laugh at you everyday.

As far as this group's intentions? I think it's hilarious.. since it was McCain himself that allowed groups like this to flourish.

I'm at the point where I don't give a shit who wins now.. they are all the same group of self serving corrupt pieces of shit.

[ClydeR]

From ClydeR's link:

So this is from the same people behind Swiftboat Veterans for Truth and has probably just as little credibility.

Nice catch, BigWorm. I'm impressed.

[Warriorbird]

I'm at the point where I don't give a shit who wins now.. they are all the same group of self serving corrupt pieces of shit.

I agree with Parkbandit. I think it is time to commit seppuku.

[Gan]

I agree with Parkbandit. I think it is time to commit seppuku.

x3

:(

[sst]

I dislike McCain for the bills he has supported that hamper out ability to collect vital information in the war on terror.

I dislike Romney because... he is Romney

[Warriorbird]

If only Ron Paul weren't batshit insane.

[sst]

lol batshit insane dosent even begin to describe that guy or his supporters...

I guess I luck out this year being from Illinois, my vote wont mean anything since it has a history of going to the dems. I may end up not voting at all in this election. I decided not vote in the primary cause i can't decide which pawn i want to support.

[Ilvane]

Oh god, PB..when did I ever support moveon.org? They are about as lefty loony as you can get, and I'm not that left.

Sorry to tell you reality.

Angela

[sst]

oh come on now yes you are Ilvane

[Stanley Burrell]

I don't know what moveon is, but if it pisses off Mikebandit, I'm'a become C.E.O. and guv'ner of this shit.

[Warriorbird]

Stan = resident lefty loony.

[Stanley Burrell]

Will it make Michael's hemorrhoids that much worse?

Label me as bejeweled jester motherfucker parents' basement dweller, so long as it does.

[sst]

Stan they need not label you as such, you are a bejeweled jester motherfucker parents' basement dweller...

[Stanley Burrell]

I know.

I just have to make sure ParkBandit bleeds from the anus.

[Gan]

... and I'm not that left.

Angela

LOL
http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/lol-46383.jpg

[Tolwynn]

I know.

I just have to make sure ParkBandit bleeds from the anus.

Just skip the lube next time.

[Stanley Burrell]

Just skip the lube next time.

But jalapeño KY makes it tingle so niiice :-\

[Warriorbird]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/31/AR2008013103921.html?hpid=topnews

To get a loan when his campaign was broke... McCain had to take out life insurance in case he didn't survive the campaign.

[TheEschaton]

I dislike McCain for the bills he has supported that hamper out ability to collect vital information in the war on terror.

Oh, you mean the unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping piece?

Or the torture of undeclared POWs?

-TheE-

[BigWorm]

Oh, you mean the unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping piece?

Or the torture of undeclared POWs?

-TheE-

WTF does McCain know about torture?

[sst]

Or the torture of undeclared POWs?

-TheE-

Aggressive interrogation, not torture.

One thing i will say, AIF knows how to torture a mother fucker. Nothing like walking into a house and seeing hajj chained to a chair with 20 or 30 drill holes in his body.


EDIT: Don't get me wrong I'm all for beating the shit out of a mother fucker who just shot at me, I'm not much in the mood to hug them after that like we are required to

[Stanley Burrell]

Nvm, thought you meant the U.S.

Never heard of the acronym "AIF" before. I thought they were just called tarr'rists.

[sst]

Nvm, thought you meant the U.S.

Never heard of the acronym "AIF" before. I thought they were just called tarr'rists.

anti iraqi forces.

[Tsa`ah]

Aggressive interrogation, not torture.

This if course would be your opinion. Now if you were once a PoW that had been tortured for a long ass time ... I'd give it some weight. This is not the case however.


One thing i will say, AIF knows how to torture a mother fucker. Nothing like walking into a house and seeing hajj chained to a chair with 20 or 30 drill holes in his body.

And likely not one credible, let alone useful, bit of information gleaned from the process.



EDIT: Don't get me wrong I'm all for beating the shit out of a mother fucker who just shot at me, I'm not much in the mood to hug them after that like we are required to

Who would be.

[sst]

This if course would be your opinion. Now if you were once a PoW that had been tortured for a long ass time ... I'd give it some weight. This is not the case however.

your assuming I am saying that they should be treated like McCain was during his time as a POW in Vietnam. The methods employed by them and what we as Americans could up until a few years ago differs greatly. Now its pretty much come down to "OMG you made the detainee kneel YOU ARE GETTING INVESTIGATED!!!11" (take it from somebody who has been investigated for just that reason) That is what it has come to for interrogators in Iraq.




And likely not one credible, let alone useful, bit of information gleaned from the process.
My dear naive friend, AIF don't torture people to get information from them, they do it because they are not them. Because they think a different person should be in charge of Islam, they do it because they want money, they do it for fun.

[Warriorbird]

So... what's your opinion on the interrogations we've outsourced, Dave? To Romania and such...

And to ask the question Stephen King did... if waterboarding is so great... why isn't Bush willing to levy it as a punishment for his daughter's DUI?

[Latrinsorm]

a) That's not a question... edit: ok NOW it's a question.
b) It's about as sensible as asking you if the death penalty is appropriate for a member of your family if he or she was caught speeding. YOU'RE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY THOUGH, OMG IT MUST BE FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!

[Latrinsorm]

Actually, come to think of it, it's even LESS sensible because at least the death penalty is (as the name suggests) a judicial penalty. Waterboarding is a (stupid) interrogation method, not a penalty for wrongdoing.

[Warriorbird]

Retentive much?

We don't see waterboarding being conducted on US citizens as an interrogation technique. Defense lawyers would have a field day. If they're "Not POWs" (which seems pretty ridiculous) we're doing something to foreign citizens that we wouldn't do to our own.

[Latrinsorm]

we're doing something to foreign citizens that we wouldn't do to our own.See how much better it sounds without the idiotic hyperbole?

[Tsa`ah]

your assuming I am saying that they should be treated like McCain was during his time as a POW in Vietnam. The methods employed by them and what we as Americans could up until a few years ago differs greatly. Now its pretty much come down to "OMG you made the detainee kneel YOU ARE GETTING INVESTIGATED!!!11" (take it from somebody who has been investigated for just that reason) That is what it has come to for interrogators in Iraq.

Dave, we're talking about what McCain views as torture .... to which I'll take his opinion over yours any day. Is that so hard to comprehend?

Aggressive interrogation is often, and it seems McCain agrees on many points, bad rhetoric for torture.


My dear naive friend, AIF don't torture people to get information from them, they do it because they are not them. Because they think a different person should be in charge of Islam, they do it because they want money, they do it for fun.

Then why even mention them in the same post as "aggressive interrogation"?


Aggressive interrogation, not torture.

One thing i will say, AIF knows how to torture a mother fucker. Nothing like walking into a house and seeing hajj chained to a chair with 20 or 30 drill holes in his body.

So you're backpedaling or just wanted to mention something out of the blue that had jack shit to do with anything?

Your post implies that the AIF knows how to get information ... which implies torturing them for said information. I pointed out that torture rarely, if ever, gets any relevant information. The person tortured just says anything to get it to stop.

Two things ... you're in no position to call me naive ... or your friend.

[Warriorbird]

Y'know, Latrin... given all the fluffy words and pointless semantics you engage in... I dunno if you're allowed to call anything hyperbole.

:)

[sst]

Dave, we're talking about what McCain views as torture .... to which I'll take his opinion over yours any day. Is that so hard to comprehend?

Aggressive interrogation is often, and it seems McCain agrees on many points, bad rhetoric for torture.



Then why even mention them in the same post as "aggressive interrogation"?

Thats fine Tsa'ah you can take his views on it as you see fit, i dont really care, its not like i am an interrogator or anything... or am i dumm dumm dummmmm!




So you're backpedaling or just wanted to mention something out of the blue that had jack shit to do with anything?

Your post implies that the AIF knows how to get information ... which implies torturing them for said information. I pointed out that torture rarely, if ever, gets any relevant information. The person tortured just says anything to get it to stop.
what you read into my post and what I said seem to be different. I said they know how to torture a mother fucker... I didn't say they know how to interrogate one. No back pedaling bro, just you being a retard sorry.


Two things ... you're in no position to call me naive ... or your friend.

You're right friend, Ignorant is a better word to describe you in this situation. You lack true knowledge to form and educated opinion.

[sst]

So... what's your opinion on the interrogations we've outsourced, Dave? To Romania and such...

And to ask the question Stephen King did... if waterboarding is so great... why isn't Bush willing to levy it as a punishment for his daughter's DUI?

Ehhh I would not be as concerned about that as I would be all the people handed over to the Iraqi's.

I'm all for anything that can be done to save American lives. American lives > all others. (within reason and situationally dependent [this way people cant harp on me too much for typing that])

I've been water boarded, it sucks but overall it ain't so bad.

[TheEschaton]

Because I R ARMY means you know everything, right? Your little "American lives > all others" shows you've bought into the bullshit as much as anyone else, and your opinion is to be disregarded. Thanks for playing, buh-bye now.

-TheE-

[Arkans]

American lives > than all others?

What kind of hogshit is that?

Replace American with German and someone else agrees with that philosphy.

Also, who the hell makes a judgement on who is more important than the next person? Yeck...

- Arkans

[Gan]

... shows you've bought into the bullshit as much as anyone else, and your opinion is to be disregarded. Thanks for playing, buh-bye now.

-TheE-

So his opinion is to be disregarded by everyone because it differs from your opinion? Or just by you?

[Daniel]

Plz go back to making lame photoshops gan.

[Gan]

Plz go back to making lame photoshops gan.

Plz try to stick with the discussion at hand.

[TheEschaton]

Because he's gone against the very nature of the principles this country is founded on, that all people are created equal.

[Gan]

So in effect you're treating him unequal by discounting his right to dissent?

[Gan]

And on the topic of McCain:

I'm predicting that Huckabee endorses McCain when he throws in the towell.

[Clove]

Because he's gone against the very nature of the principles this country is founded on, that all people are created equal.

And still they sure weren't concerned about the lives of Redcoats.

[Clove]

So in effect you're treating him unequal by discounting his right to dissent?

E is big on your freedom to agree with him.

[TheEschaton]

No, he has a right to say whatever he feels. I simply think his opinion should be discounted because it's not rational nor moral. That is my opinion.

And Clove, if you read the Declaration, the whole thing is a document saying how all men are created equal, but we're really sorry, we have to dissolve these bonds between us because you won't treat us equally, and people'll are gonna probably get hurt. I don't think the Founding Fathers intrisincally valued their lives moreso than the British.

Now whether they valued their lives more than their slaves - possibly. Thought Jefferson wanted to abolish slavery. :P

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

Thats fine Tsa'ah you can take his views on it as you see fit, i dont really care, its not like i am an interrogator or anything... or am i dumm dumm dumm mmm!

Honestly, I don't think you've got the faculties to do much more than stand at attention.


what you read into my post and what I said seem to be different. I said they know how to torture a mother fucker... I didn't say they know how to interrogate one. No back pedaling bro, just you being a retard sorry.

Not at all. As I said, you were either inserting bullshit out of the blue or implying the AIF knows how to get information.

Since you cleared it up, it's apparent you were inserting bullshit out of the blue for no apparent reason.


You're right friend, Ignorant is a better word to describe you in this situation. You lack true knowledge to form and educated opinion.

Again, you're in no position to really call me anything, let alone a friend.

[Clove]

And Clove, if you read the Declaration, the whole thing is a document saying how all men are created equal, but we're really sorry, we have to dissolve these bonds between us because you won't treat us equally, and people'll are gonna probably get hurt. I don't think the Founding Fathers intrisincally valued their lives moreso than the British.


You know I've read the D of I and you know my opinions on inalienable rights. Beyond that, it's pretty clear they considered their lives more valuable than the British, at least any British who were on Colonial soil. They didn't live in the same fantasy world as you.

[Daniel]

That's a pretty ridiculous interpretation of the D of I.

[TheEschaton]

Killing someone doesn't necessarily equate to you thinking of them as less of a human being. You can kill someone who is your equal - doesn't mean they're less equal. Killing them just means you were acting in your own self-interest, and not making a judgment on another person's worth.

[Clove]

Killing someone doesn't necessarily equate to you thinking of them as less of a human being. You can kill someone who is your equal - doesn't mean they're less equal. Killing them just means you were acting in your own self-interest, and not making a judgment on another person's worth.

You're irrevocably making a judgement on another person's worth. Nothing says, "I'm more important than you" than a bullet to the head.

[Tsa`ah]

You're irrevocably making a judgement on another person's worth. Nothing says, "I'm more important than you" than a bullet to the head.

Maybe you missed this part ...


acting in your own self-interest

[TheEschaton]

But intrinsic worth? I doubt it. One may believe more in the rightness of one's cause, that another person "deserves" to die because they fight for tyranny and oppression, but to intrinsically believe your life is worth more than another's simply because it is (which is the interpretation I took of Dave's statement) and that that is somehow the natural order of things - that idea is not in the Declaration of Independence, nor any of the principles this country was founded on.

That being said, no one is perfect, and even the Founding Fathers treated slaves less than what they were.

As an example, I'd quote most of Eastern tradition (and Native American tradition). These were warring nations as well, but they honored and respected their enemies as people worthy of their efforts. One of the greatest failings of the Western tradition is this idea that a person can somehow inherently be better than another (an idea which even the Church rejects).

-TheE-

[Clove]

Maybe you missed this part ...

No, this isn't like you missing the big fucking sign on the back of every NYC cab.

Whether you're working in self-interest or not isn't the point. The point is, you're determining that your life (which includes your self-interest) is worth more than the life you're talking.

[Daniel]

This is beyond stupid.

They were not killing british because they were better. It was because the British were denying their equality.

See the difference? Holy fuck. Can we not be purposefully retarded to prove a point for once?

[Clove]

This is beyond stupid.

They were not killing british because they were better. It was because the British were denying their equality. ?

No shit Sherlock, glad you had High School history too. The point still remains, once you start shooting at someone you're demonstrating that your life and purpose is more important to you than them.



See the difference? Holy fuck. Can we not be purposefully retarded to prove a point for once?

I know I can. I'm not sure about you.

[TheEschaton]

Clove, you're acting retarded.

[Clove]

Clove, you're acting retarded.

Not as retarded as "well they they were acting in their self-interests at the expense of their enemies lives... but that doesn't mean they didn't value them as much as themselves."

[Tsa`ah]

No, this isn't like you missing the big fucking sign on the back of every NYC cab.

Whether you're working in self-interest or not isn't the point. The point is, you're determining that your life (which includes your self-interest) is worth more than the life you're talking.

Wow ... you're mincing semantics to the point of Lat and possibly crossing that line between slightly to fully retarded.

In a situation where it's your life or the other guy's life ... it's self interest.

You want to live and so does the other guy. Worth has nothing to do with it.

[Latrinsorm]

And still they sure weren't concerned about the lives of Redcoats.Surrender was permitted. This indicates that what they were fighting for is what was considered more worthy than the life of another. This is especially true in the Revolutionary War when most soldiers (that died) were going to die of infection later anyway.

You're equating all instances of murder with sociopathy, which is a claim with very little empirical backing. The Lost Generation alone is proof enough of your irrectitude - soldiers historically tend to have a very difficult time dealing with killing other people.

[Clove]

Add that to the irony of slaves, for which you admit there's no defense.

[TheEschaton]

It's fair to say slavery is the enlightened white man's biggest hypocrisy.

[Clove]

You're equating all instances of murder with sociopathy, which is a claim with very little empirical backing.

Nope. I'm equating the act of killing as a decision that your life is more important than the life you're taking.

[Latrinsorm]

Nope. I'm equating the act of killing as a decision that your life is more important than the life you're taking.A disregard for the rights of others? Yeah, there's no way that's sociopathy, what was I talking about?

[Clove]

"Every patriot believes his country better than any other country . . . In its active manifestation—it is fond of killing—patriotism would be well enough if it were simply defensive, but it is also aggressive . . . Patriotism deliberately and with folly aforethought subordinates the interests of a whole to the interests of a part . . . Patriotism is fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave and blind as a stone."
—Ambrose Bierce

[Clove]

A disregard for the rights of others? Yeah, there's no way that's sociopathy, what was I talking about?

I don't think even you know.

[Tsa`ah]

You're still casting your aspersions pretty wide.

You assume that of everyone fighting in a conflict ... which is pretty inaccurate.

The revolutionary war was pretty much a kill or be killed situation. Outside of that, it was a kill or lose your land situation. Outside of that it was a kill or socially, you'll be under the heel of a foreigner situation.

Patriotism may have been the driving force for those joining the military during either WW, but I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a single vet that will claim they killed the enemy because they were "better". They'll tell you that if they didn't kill the enemy, the enemy would have killed them.

Korea? Patriotism? Sorry ... but no again.
Vietnam? no

I really don't care what military conflict you sight, rarely do the combatants think they're better than the opposing force. They kill because it's in their best interest to do so.

[Clove]

You're still casting your aspersions pretty wide.

You assume that of everyone fighting in a conflict ... which is pretty inaccurate.

No wider than your aspersions. Hang around any base in a war zone and engage the soldiers in conversation about the enemy; see what you come up with.

Latrinsorm has a valid point in that, people can consider the purpose of their war more important than anyone's lives (including theirs) but this is a philosophical distinction. In the end people value "their people" more than others.

Here's another one:


History teaches that wars begin when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.

RONALD REAGAN, speech, Jan. 16, 1984

What do you imagine he was referring to by the "price of aggression"? Lives maybe?

[Daniel]

Last time I chcked Ambrose Bierce wasn't a founding father.

[Clove]

Last time I chcked Ambrose Bierce wasn't a founding father.

Boy you're good.

[Daniel]

It's a stupid argument. Look at what happened at the end of WWI. People got out of the trenches where they had been murdering each other like dogs and played fucking baseball.

[bluesmith]

It's a stupid argument. Look at what happened at the end of WWI. People got out of the trenches where they had been murdering each other like dogs and played fucking baseball.

Unless I'm mistaken, this was the Christmas Day ceasefire, of 1914, and they played soccer...so fucking middle of the war (if you're European).

[Daniel]

Close enough.

[Gan]

No, he has a right to say whatever he feels. I simply think his opinion should be discounted because it's not rational nor moral. That is my opinion.-TheE-

So basically its your opinion that someone else should not be given fair voice even though you're all for all men are created equal.

Gotcha.

[Daniel]

wow.

[TheEschaton]

You sir are an idiot.

I literally said: Give him fair voice.

My opinion is that his opportunity to voice something was of no value, and that people shouldn't listen to that sort of bullshit.

That Houston smog must be clogging your ability to reason.

-TheE-

[Gan]

You sir are an idiot.

I literally said: Give him fair voice.

My opinion is that his opportunity to voice something was of no value, and that people shouldn't listen to that sort of bullshit.

That Houston smog must be clogging your ability to reason.

-TheE-


Because I R ARMY means you know everything, right? Your little "American lives > all others" shows you've bought into the bullshit as much as anyone else, and your opinion is to be disregarded. Thanks for playing, buh-bye now.

-TheE-

We know what you said. No need in going back to spin it.

:lol:

Additionally adding personal attacks in order to help solidify your stance just implicates your stuipidity in the original statement that much more.

:clap:

[Clove]

It's a stupid argument. Look at what happened at the end of WWI. People got out of the trenches where they had been murdering each other like dogs and played fucking baseball.

That's interesting that you use the phrase "murdering like dogs".

Hmmm. So if we play catch with a dog, we're validating their worth as equal to our own? They needed a fucking goalie, Jesus.

[Daniel]

If dogs could throw you'd have a point.

[Gan]

I had a lab that could throw a tennis ball. He just didnt throw with his front legs (arms).

He could still throw though.

[Clove]

Based on that evidence, I'm willing to equate Daniel with a golden retriever.

[Daniel]

Source.

[Gan]

Based on that evidence, I'm willing to equate Daniel with a golden retriever.

LOL

[Daniel]

woo!!!!

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/cheerleader.jpg

[Daniel]

Lol @ you actually updating the image.

[Gan]

LOL @ you finally noticing.

And I love it that when I wouldnt post another you at your repeated urging, you went and posted it yourself.

I guess that also makes you an attention whore.

:lol:

[sst]

Daniel, just so i understand, I may have not read into it right. What you're saying is that you value the lives of an Iraqi over that of the people in your truck or your platoon etc?

[sst]

Because I R ARMY means you know everything, right? Your little "American lives > all others" shows you've bought into the bullshit as much as anyone else, and your opinion is to be disregarded. Thanks for playing, buh-bye now.

-TheE-

I didn't buy into any bullshit, my job over there was to keep my brothers on the ground with me alive. We lost 44, the company I worked for lost a total of 8, and as a company received some 60 purple hearts. I would trade 100 enemy lives for each one of them. If i was able to aggressively question some of the enemy we captured I may have found out that the next house we were going into was booby trapped, and we would not have been digging though rubble while being ambushed trying to get to the people buried underneath.

Or when we trace a command wire from a deep buried IED back to the house of hajj and arrest him, I may have been able to pressure him more to find out that there was a EFP set up 100 meters up the road (thanks Iran).

Those are my failures, those are the things that being limited in what i can do during field interrogations got me that weighs on my conscience every day.

[Warriorbird]

I think we lose when we stoop to the level of Soviet Russia to fight terrorism.

It'd be much better to dedicate the tremendous cash outlays to making us energy independent from that region.

[sst]

I'm not talking about shoving a cattle prod up somebodies ass, I'm talking about bitch slapping somebody once when they lie to assert control. Currently all we can do is say, "Mr. Iraqi sir, please don't lie to me its not very nice, what would Allah think of you not telling the truth."

[Gan]

You obviously didnt get the new TheE manual of interrorgation: Hugging for the Truth and its sequel: When Hugging Doesn't Work - Hug Naked.

[Warriorbird]

The average insurgent is sort of meaningless in comparison to their day to day fundraising (to some degree fueled by propaganda/Al Jazeera fundraisers and such to some degree fueld by the fact that us, China, and India looooove us some oil).

However heroic or villainous your efforts it sort of pales in comparison, Dave.

[Stanley Burrell]

<<Those are my failures, those are the things that being limited in what i can do during field interrogations got me that weighs on my conscience every day.>>

Those aren't fucking failures, you shouldn't say that shit. I'm pretty sure you were doing your job.

I forget military nomenclature for # of soldiers per unit (i.e. squad, division, platoon, etc.) but how does 8 stand out when compared to other companies?

And 44, holy shit dude. What is that in regard to, even?

Sorry for the break of serious emoness.

[sst]

I snagged people at got information off them at time of capture, my job was to get actionable information before they were sent to the rear (base) I cared about the average day to day insurgent, because he was the guy shooting at me and to kill me and my friends.

Let Romania interrogate those high value people for all i care.

[Warriorbird]

... and when we invade and torture... how have the terrorists not won?

[sst]

<<Those are my failures, those are the things that being limited in what i can do during field interrogations got me that weighs on my conscience every day.>>

Those aren't fucking failures, you shouldn't say that shit. I'm pretty sure you were doing your job.

I forget military nomenclature for # of soldiers per unit (i.e. squad, division, platoon, etc.) but how does 8 stand out when compared to other companies?

And 44, holy shit dude. What is that in regard to, even?

Sorry for the break of serious emoness.

Normal Stryker infantry company has about 100 soldiers for us. 44 KIA for our brigade, snipers, IEDs, and firefights.

[sst]

Well Warriorbird, where do you draw the line of it being torture and it not being torture?

Is putting cuffs on tightly torture?
its making somebody kneel on the ground for more than 5min torture?

[Daniel]

Daniel, just so i understand, I may have not read into it right. What you're saying is that you value the lives of an Iraqi over that of the people in your truck or your platoon etc?

I'm saying I value them equally David.



If someone threatens this country and our ideals, I will not hesitate to do what is neccessary to ensure that they are unable to do so. I won't do it because I perceive them to be inferior people but because they would threaten the notion of freedom and equality.

This country was built upon certain ideals that you and I are pledged to protect. At the point that we begin to make that distinction, we have not only failed to fulfill our responsibilities but we have failed our country.

[Warriorbird]

Farming out high end interrogation jobs to former Eastern bloc countries in return for assisting them with EU issues? Torture.

What differentiates Gitmo from the political prisons of the Chinese or the Russian gulag (other than less work being done)?

[Daniel]

LOL @ you finally noticing.

And I love it that when I wouldnt post another you at your repeated urging, you went and posted it yourself.

I guess that also makes you an attention whore.

:lol:

You obviously missed the joke on your expense.

[Clove]

Well Warriorbird, where do you draw the line of it being torture and it not being torture?

Is putting cuffs on tightly torture?
its making somebody kneel on the ground for more than 5min torture?

Is reading Warriorbird's posts torture?

[Warriorbird]

That was lame enough to make me consider critiquing your grammar.

:)

[Gan]

You obviously missed the joke on your expense.

Interesting that only you would think it funny.

[Daniel]

If untrue.

[sst]

Farming out high end interrogation jobs to former Eastern bloc countries in return for assisting them with EU issues? Torture.

What differentiates Gitmo from the political prisons of the Chinese or the Russian gulag (other than less work being done)?

well considering that torture doesn't go on in Gitmo and never has, i think thats a pretty big difference. Truly what you read in the newspapers and what really goes on in these places often differs greatly. I do know however that your mind on the actions of our men and women working there is already made up so beyond what i just said I wont argue the fact with you.

Tell me what goes on in one of these "outsourced" interrogations. Who is conducting it and all that. Also if you could show me where you get your information about this i would appreciate it.

[sst]

I'm saying I value them equally David.



If someone threatens this country and our ideals, I will not hesitate to do what is neccessary to ensure that they are unable to do so. I won't do it because I perceive them to be inferior people but because they would threaten the notion of freedom and equality.

This country was built upon certain ideals that you and I are pledged to protect. At the point that we begin to make that distinction, we have not only failed to fulfill our responsibilities but we have failed our country.

So what you're saying is Americans in Iraq > Iraqi's. Because what they do when they attempt to harm you or threaten our ideals you would do what is necessary to ensure they can not do so?

You put yourself and those on the ground with you above those that would attempt to do either harm.

[Gan]

If untrue.

Your opinion.

[Warriorbird]

Googled up discussion of the document in question.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/10/wcia10.xml

Wikified simplistic rundown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

The EU report of Feb 14, 2007 is also noteworthy.

People being held indefinitely with no charges is about the exact same as Chinese political prisons... y'know, the ones that we always criticize(d) them over... whether you believe what goes on at Guantanamo Bay is torture or not.

In making us react in these ways... they win. Going after their money (through energy independence or through not having let Bin Laden's entire family go, say...) or actually having gone into the areas of Pakistan that are just flat out ruled by Islamic extremists and not Musharaf's propped up government would be far better strategies.

[sst]

Googled up discussion of the document in question.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/10/wcia10.xml

Wikified simplistic rundown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

The EU report of Feb 14, 2007 is also noteworthy.

People being held indefinitely with no charges is about the exact same as Chinese political prisons... y'know, the ones that we always criticize(d) them over... whether you believe what goes on at Guantanamo Bay is torture or not.

Read your report a bit more, I think you just looked at the headline, which is typical.

Nowhere does it say that they were outsourced or Romanians did the interrogations. It specifically states that they are CIA interrogation sites.
But hey it sounds better when you say they were sent to Romania to be tortured.

oh yeah and LOL at the "Black Site" reference... its kinda like "Black Ops" terms only used in movies and by retards.


In making us react in these ways... they win. Going after their money (through energy independence or through not having let Bin Laden's entire family go, say...) or actually having gone into the areas of Pakistan that are just flat out ruled by Islamic extremists and not Musharaf's propped up government would be far better strategies.

I agree with the first part of it.
I also still am trying to figure out why you're advocating invading Pakistan all the time.

[Warriorbird]

Because it was a good idea... and it still is? It would've done what American needed to do post 9/11 rather than be a gigantic and costly bait and switch.

And no. I've read a fair bit more about the issue and talked to some family members over there about it. That stuff was just easy to point to.

[sst]

what experience do your "family" members have on the "issue"

And we all know how reliable strategic level intelligence like that tends to be don't we? Everyone said Iraq had WMD prior to the war. So this is all the 'hard Evidence" we have.

And we also know that journalistic integrity is never compromised by folks to achieve their own agenda.

[Warriorbird]

Oh, what my family has to say is undoubtably biased. Hungarians tend to hate Romanians on general principle. With that said... the CIA flew a LOT of folks around. How better to avoid Americans conducting torture than to have Romanians conduct the torture?

The main cheerleaders for Iraq having WMD prior to the war were neocons.

Douglas Feith and the Pentagon Office of Special Plans did a great job "fooling" other intelligence agencies and fooling Congress... but, I've never claimed to be a big fan of Congress.

[sst]

So that comment about talking to your "family" was put in there why?

The CIA tells people that they are the CIA when they go places... So it must be them right? What you "assume" and what goes on can be very different.
It's also somewhat interesting in how these random "human rights watch" folks get this information that they put out. How on earth do they know 1 plane owned and run by the CIA with no paperwork landed at said airport. How do they know where the cars that showed up came from? How do they know how long they stayed?... I'd call their bluff on that stuff.

Neocons, and most of the countries in the UN, and those on the security council too, you forgot about them.

[Warriorbird]

Helps when the neocons (who'd been talking another war with Iraq since the early 90s) are the ones passing the intel out.

"Two years later, Feith and other former U.S. officials signed an open letter to President Bill Clinton calling for the United States to oust Saddam Hussein. Feith was part of a group of former national security officials in the 1990s who supported Ahmad Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress and encouraged the U.S. Congress to pass the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Congress approved the Act, and Clinton signed it into law."

Hmm...

Since you're the one claiming that the EU is hard to fool... why do they all believe in this now?

[sst]

Helps when the neocons (who'd been talking another war with Iraq since the early 90s) are the ones passing the intel out.

"Two years later, Feith and other former U.S. officials signed an open letter to President Bill Clinton calling for the United States to oust Saddam Hussein. Feith was part of a group of former national security officials in the 1990s who supported Ahmad Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress and encouraged the U.S. Congress to pass the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Congress approved the Act, and Clinton signed it into law."

Hmm...

Passing the intel out from those countries on the security council... dude... come on give it a rest, It is kind of hard to pass the Germans intelligence that they gave us in the first place...

[Warriorbird]

We got it from Germany? Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans

[sst]

i was using it as an example warriorbird.

Change it to Brittan =)

Edit Nope I retract my statement, and stick with Germany too, i knew i remembered reading about it somewhere.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/24/AR2006062401081_pf.html


The German intelligence agency BND faithfully passed Curveball's stories to the Americans. Over time, the informant generated more than 100 intelligence reports on secret Iraqi weapons programs -- the only such reports from an informant claiming to have visited and worked in mobile labs. Other informants, also later discredited, had claimed indirect knowledge of mobile labs.

Granted the information was discredited AFTER the invasion, however guess who's intelligence was used... GERMANY!

[Warriorbird]

Right. Reasonable enough. It's a lot easier to WANT to not know things. I'm sure you're a great soldier when it comes down to it.

EDIT:

The German official declined but then offered a startlingly candid assessment, Drumheller recalled. "He said, 'I think the guy is a fabricator,' " Drumheller said, recounting the conversation with the official, whom he declined to name. "He said: 'We also think he has psychological problems. We could never validate his reports.' "

::

The Office of Special Plans (OSP), which existed from September 2002 to June 2003, was a Pentagon unit created by Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, and headed by Feith, as charged by then-U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to supply senior Bush administration officials with raw intelligence (unvetted by intelligence analysts, see Stovepiping) pertaining to Iraq.

::

In February 2007, the Pentagon's inspector general issued a report that concluded that Feith's office "developed, produced, and then disseminated alternative intelligence assessments on the Iraq and al Qaida relationship, which included some conclusions that were inconsisent with the consensus of the Intelligence Community, to senior decision-makers." The report found that these actions were "inappropriate" though not "illegal."

[sst]

read edit please kthax

[Warriorbird]

Err...read the one from the same document I noted. Bolded.

[sst]

Right. Reasonable enough. It's a lot easier to WANT to not know things. I'm sure you're a great soldier when it comes down to it.

EDIT:

The German official declined but then offered a startlingly candid assessment, Drumheller recalled. "He said, 'I think the guy is a fabricator,' " Drumheller said, recounting the conversation with the official, whom he declined to name. "He said: 'We also think he has psychological problems. We could never validate his reports.' "

Statement from after the fact.
I will tell you this, intelligence professionals will not sit with somebody long enough to generate 100 reports (all of which take hours upon hours to write) without having some feeling that the information is worth collecting, nor will they put somebody up in a safe house. They tend to leave people flapping in the wind when they come off as bullshitters in person.



The Office of Special Plans (OSP), which existed from September 2002 to June 2003, was a Pentagon unit created by Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, and headed by Feith, as charged by then-U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to supply senior Bush administration officials with raw intelligence (unvetted by intelligence analysts, see Stovepiping) pertaining to Iraq.

Trust me i know a whole lot about the vetting process. A majority of your intelligence collected is from unvetted sources, and remains that way.

But all in all that does not make a difference in my previous statement.

Germany supplied intelligence AND voted for the the UN amendment.

[Daniel]

So what you're saying is Americans in Iraq > Iraqi's. Because what they do when they attempt to harm you or threaten our ideals you would do what is necessary to ensure they can not do so?

You put yourself and those on the ground with you above those that would attempt to do either harm.

Only if you believe that all Iraqis want to kill you.

Which you know I don't.

[Warriorbird]

I'm sure you do, Dave.

None the less... it's sort of convenient how Curveball showed up (and wasn't vetted) and the OSP showed up... and Wolfowitz and Feith had wanted to go to war with Iraq for a LONG time... and neither were intelligence professionals in the slightest.

[sst]

Only if you believe that all Iraqis want to kill you.

Which you know I don't.

No, i don't. But i would rather make a mistake and shoot somebody who looks like they are about to throw a grenade than make the mistake not to shoot them if I'm not sure.

I'm sure you feel now, or felt the same way when you were over there. Shit man you were a driver in 2-14, how many cars did you end up running off the road?

[Daniel]

No, i don't. But i would rather make a mistake and shoot somebody who looks like they are about to throw a grenade than make the mistake not to shoot them if I'm not sure.

I'm sure you feel now, or felt the same way when you were over there. Shit man you were a driver in 2-14, how many cars did you end up running off the road?

Alot.

I ended up shooting alot of people and things too. That doesn't mean I should just indiscriminately do it, "because they might be the enemy".

[Warriorbird]

Which is what differentiates you from certain Blackwater contractors at the very least.

[sst]

I'm sure you do, Dave.

None the less... it's sort of convenient how Curveball showed up (and wasn't vetted) and the OSP showed up... and Wolfowitz and Feith had wanted to go to war with Iraq for a LONG time... and neither were intelligence professionals in the slightest.

Convenience doesn't matter.

1 Germany supplied intelligence used in support for the war, from a source that they spent a lot of time and money with.

2 Germany voted in favor of the amendment in the UN which everyone on that council knew was authorizing America to attack Iraq.

Those are the two facts that apply, no matter what you say those two things can not be disputed. I am not making any assumptions on my part as you are on yours.

[sst]

Alot.

I ended up shooting alot of people and things too. That doesn't mean I should just indiscriminately do it, "because they might be the enemy".

Have your views now changed? You put yourself and your mission above those Iraqi's in cars, who KNEW better than to drive in front of you by that time. I'm not saying to do so indiscriminately, and never did. You did what you had to to keep those people on your left and right safe, even if it was the wrong thing to do in retrospect.

To me that appears as if you place the value of American lives above that of Iraqi, I don't see any other way to interpret that.

[Daniel]

Some people obviously didn't know better.

[sst]

Thats not the point of my post Daniel.

[Warriorbird]

1. Germany just gave some intelligence. This clearly wasn't an OMG! Best source evar!

2. Might political considerations have played into Germany going into the war?

Do you think going to war based on one unproven intelligence source is how the US typically conducts this sort of thing? Or, in the real world, do people decide to go to war and then cite one unproven intelligence source?

[Daniel]

Thats not the point of my post Daniel.

Well, I don't know what you expect when you equate combat operations to *help* people with extraordinary rendition.