Mets get Santana

[Kefka]

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Twins and Mets have agreed to a deal that would send two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana to New York in exchange for four prospects, according to published reports, the first one by USA Today, on Tuesday.

The deal is contingent on the Mets and Santana reaching an agreement on a six-or-seven year contract extension. Indications are that Santana is seeking a deal worth close to $150 million dollars. The Mets have been granted a 48-to-72 hour window to negotiate the extension and Santana is expected to waive his no-trade clause if an agreement is reached. The left-hander must also pass a physical.

According to the report, the four prospects that that Twins would be receiving in the deal are outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080129&content_id=2359161&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

[Anebriated]

Fuck, i was really hoping he wouldnt end up in the NL East.

[Stanley Burrell]

Fuck him anyway.

I'm only glad because Theo-fuck-me-in-the-gonads Epstein didn't pull a deal together.

Go Willy.

[Sean]

I'm kinda glad the yankees didn't end up with him. I like the direction they are going developing their own talent and while Santana would have been awesome in the short run .. in the long run we'd end up with a 37 year old pitcher making 20m+ ... moose rd 2. No Thanks.

[Stanley Burrell]

<<Sean>>

I'm starting to feel positive with the farm team vibes as well. Maybe Cashman knew what he was doing. They're still going to need to move Jaba around in the innings before he finds his niche. I mean, remember Mariano?

I don't get the Jeter + Mariano homegrown vibe for now, but I think what's going on is significant enough that it may actually be transforming into something pretty decent.

[crazymage]

Twinkies took it in the bum on this one, Red Sox and Yankee offers blew the garbage the Mets sent away. Gomez? MIGHT be a solid OF. They could have had Hughes/Cabrera/Horne, or Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie ... Ridiculous Deal and the Mets still may not win the NL East. (but I think they will sorry anebriated).

[crazymage]

Humbers a bust IN THE NL. wtf is he going to do vs the Tigers/indians/ or even Royals. Mulvey is a 4th starter at best. and some A Ball pitcher who has no breaking ball roflmao.

[Sean of the Thread]

There was actually talk/rumors he'd end in up Tampa.

Fuck you all we're going for 82 this year.

[crazymage]

There was actually talk/rumors he'd end in up Tampa.

Fuck you all we're going for 82 this year.

he'd have vetoed any trade to Tampa, there's no way they can afford more than 50% of there entire salary on a guy who plays every 5 days. On that note I love 'The Rays' this year, and in 2 years (if Kaz holds up and Price is the real deal.) they'll pass the Yankees (Not the Sox dont be silly.)

[Latrinsorm]

I would say 1 bad start hardly qualifies someone as a bust, comparing Mussina to Santana is ridiculous, and I had a HUGE boner for Carlos Gomez.

The idea of Pedro and Santana on the same team is pretty intense though.

[LMingrone]

I'm kinda glad the yankees didn't end up with him. I like the direction they are going developing their own talent and while Santana would have been awesome in the short run .. in the long run we'd end up with a 37 year old pitcher making 20m+ ... moose rd 2. No Thanks.

^This

I'm sick of starting to feel attached to certain players, only to have them traded away.

[Anebriated]

If Pedro can stay healthy I see no reason why the mets should not win the NL East(aside from a second straight historic late season collapse). I still think my Phillies can be competitive but now we need to make some noise in whats left of the free agent/trade market.

Right now we are on the edge of signing FA 3B Feliz. While its not a stellar signing it will be an improvement over our current 3B by committee that is Coste and Helms. Feliz's defensive numbers speak for themself and his offensive numbers should improve in hitter friendly citizens bank park. I dont think we can stop there though. I will not be happy if we go into the season with Eaton in our starting rotation. One of the worst things(aside from the burrell deal) that Wade did to our team before leaving for the Astro's was sign Eaton for some ridiculous number like 8m a year. Hes a shitty pitcher and a number 5 at best. I wouldnt mind seeing us man up and sign Loshe back, I think hes still available anyway and that would give us a pretty solid rotation in my eyes. Hamels, Myers, Kendrick, Moyer, Lohse.

[Sean]

I would say 1 bad start hardly qualifies someone as a bust, comparing Mussina to Santana is ridiculous, and I had a HUGE boner for Carlos Gomez.

The idea of Pedro and Santana on the same team is pretty intense though.

I'm not actually comparing Santana to Moose it's entirely at some point Santana could refine his game and pitch into his 40s but I suspect it's far more likely he'll end up overpaid and far less effective at the end of his record breaking contract.

[Kefka]

Still wondering how Mets managed to keep Pelfrey and F-Mart in the deal. They literally lost nothing in this deal. :)

Mets rotation this year:

1. johan santana
2. pedro martinez
3. john maine
4. oliver perez
5. el duque/ possibly livan

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

You haven't figured it out yet? Minnesota sports teams are incapable of making a half-decent trade. Simply put. Hell, the last decent trade any team from MN made was the Twins getting Joe Nathan for free, and even that took two years to look ok. Odds are, they could've pulled Pelfrey away, but simply forgot he existed as they were rushing to unload Santana, who has suddenly let his ego get the better of him.

Getting a third solid young outfielder and a bunch of underutilized arms for a beloved, giant drain on the local community is a great deal. Johan will do well in New York, this year, then fail to be anything beyond average until the day he retires. I say that because he'll only get worse in the NL, despite not pitching against DHs, as the AL simply lacks talented lefty-killers. Teams like Colorado and Philly do not.

[crazymage]

um they also got a guy named Liriano and Bonser in the same Nathan trade. Liriano (if healthy) could possibly be the best pitcher in the game. They also got Delmon Young who if works on his swinging at everything will be a all star atleast 5-8 times in his career, for Garza who is going to be hammered by the entire AL East (they also got Jason Priding(sp?) in the deal whos a solid prospect).

[crazymage]

Holy crap I didnt even read your 2nd paragraph, The AL has some GREAT Left handed hitting, Ortiz, Crawford, Abreu, Markakis, Sizemore, Hafner...The NL?? Holliday, uh Chipper (pretty sure hes a switch) Dont you dare say Howard is a great hitter.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Garza would've been our #2 pitcher this year, as Boof is garbage when teams lock on. His stamina is lacking, and he'll never throw a complete game shutout. Like I said, they pretty much got Nathan for free in the deal, as he was a projected 6th starter / long relief guy at the time.

The Delmon Young deal will only sway the Twins' way if he can hit behind Morneau well enough to drive in anything Justin can't. Best case scenerio, he's a slightly faster Moises Alou. Worst case scenerio, he's a mid-level power hitter who will steal ten bases, get thrown out seven times, hit .260, and have more off the field problems than the few that are tolerated on the small market Twins.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Holy crap I didnt even read your 2nd paragraph, The AL has some GREAT Left handed hitting, Ortiz, Crawford, Abreu, Markakis, Sizemore, Hafner...The NL?? Holliday, uh Chipper (pretty sure hes a switch) Dont you dare say Howard is a great hitter.

I said lefty-killer. As in hitters that do especially well against lefties. The only true lefty-killer in the AL that I'd even consider as such would be Russ Gload, and he's not even a full time starter. Of course that isn't counting the dozen players who hit equally well against any pitcher, but none of them have earned the distinction of outright blasting left-handed pitching, much like Pujols has.

[Hulkein]

Fuck.

Hope he tears his rotator cuff in the Spring. (I wouldn't wish an injury like that on football players with un-guaranteed contracts but fuck if I care if a guy goes on the shelf with $150 mil guaranteed).

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Very agreed. The guy turned his back on the fans the second he became anything worth noticing. His first year in the league, I watched him pitch against the pirates in a game that Brad Radke was scheduled for. Everyone was confused, and boo'ed Santana because we wanted Radke, and oddly enough, that was the only time in the last decade I'd have preferred Radke over Santana.

Johan gave up two massive homeruns to Aramis Ramirez, and lost the game by something to the tune of four points, gave up five or eight runs... He was one of two players who actually signed autographs after the game, though.

This last year, I went to a game he pitched against the Red Sox. After the game, about three dozen people out in the rain, waiting at the players' entrance. Santana comes out first, surrounded by his security, and is ushered away from the fans without so much as a wave, glance, or anything even remotely kind... and that was after a WIN.

He let his mediocre talent get to him, and his slightly above-average pitching mechanics will be revealed for what they are in the NL, where lefty-killers are numerous and dominating. Barry Zito #2 right here. I give him one more solid season, as he'll likely dominate behind a potent offense and 80% of his competition not being well versed against his pitching style. Then the offense will age, Wright and Reyes will be stuck holding up an old, less than awesome lineup, and the rotation's collective age will show in what will likely be Pedro's last season. Kudos to you Mr. Santana, you took the greedy way out, and fueled Minnesota's future in doing so.

At any rate, when the day comes that twenty million per season from the cheapest team in baseball isn't enough to feed your ego, consider therapy.

[Sean]

Uh lots of AL hitters hit leftys well... just even briefly looking at the sortables vs lefties with a min of 100 plate appearance in 07..

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Magglio Ordonez DET 122 33 50 13 0 8 30 0 0 24 15 .410 .500 .713 1.213
2 Jose Guillen SEA 138 26 50 12 1 7 23 2 0 15 20 .362 .433 .616 1.049
3 Troy Glaus TOR 83 22 30 6 0 9 22 0 0 18 24 .361 .476 .759 1.235
4 Dustin Pedroia BOS 164 33 57 8 0 3 21 1 0 18 10 .348 .418 .451 .870
5 Brendan Harris TAM 142 21 49 11 0 3 12 1 0 15 27 .345 .411 .486 .897
6 Alex Rios TOR 145 34 50 17 1 6 26 1 1 20 18 .345 .422 .600 1.022
7 Manny Ramirez BOS 128 29 44 8 0 9 22 0 0 33 26 .344 .478 .617 1.095
8 Billy Butler KAN 97 15 33 9 1 4 21 0 0 10 15 .340 .404 .577 .981
9 Ian Kinsler TEX 115 29 39 7 1 6 18 4 1 18 19 .339 .425 .574 .999
10 Frank Thomas TOR 122 23 41 9 0 9 32 0 0 21 24 .336 .431 .631 1.062

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Uh lots of AL hitters hit leftys well... just even briefly looking at the sortables vs lefties with a min of 100 plate appearance in 07..

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Magglio Ordonez DET 122 33 50 13 0 8 30 0 0 24 15 .410 .500 .713 1.213
2 Jose Guillen SEA 138 26 50 12 1 7 23 2 0 15 20 .362 .433 .616 1.049
3 Troy Glaus TOR 83 22 30 6 0 9 22 0 0 18 24 .361 .476 .759 1.235
4 Dustin Pedroia BOS 164 33 57 8 0 3 21 1 0 18 10 .348 .418 .451 .870
5 Brendan Harris TAM 142 21 49 11 0 3 12 1 0 15 27 .345 .411 .486 .897
6 Alex Rios TOR 145 34 50 17 1 6 26 1 1 20 18 .345 .422 .600 1.022
7 Manny Ramirez BOS 128 29 44 8 0 9 22 0 0 33 26 .344 .478 .617 1.095
8 Billy Butler KAN 97 15 33 9 1 4 21 0 0 10 15 .340 .404 .577 .981
9 Ian Kinsler TEX 115 29 39 7 1 6 18 4 1 18 19 .339 .425 .574 .999
10 Frank Thomas TOR 122 23 41 9 0 9 32 0 0 21 24 .336 .431 .631 1.062


Only two of those men I'd consider bonafide "lefty-killers", and one is likely going to the NL (Glaus). Magglio has a career year, and has always hit well for average to begin with. Don't expect him to duplicate his power numbers this year. As far as Manny, he falls into the "great at hitting anything" category. Lefties, righties, balls, strikes. Whatever. Aside from A-Rod and Ramirez, Johan had a lot of "decent" hitters to face, but none that were odds on favorites to crush every third pitch he threw.

Jimmy Rollins, Pat Burrell, Hanley Ramirez, Dan Uggla, Brandon Phillips, Chipper Jones, Albert Pujols, Glaus/Rolen, Andruw Jones, Jason Bay, Alfonso Soriano, Aramis Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Troy Tulowitzki, Matt Holliday, an emerging Ryan Braun... must I go on? The list of all-star caliber players that hit well against lefties is in favor of the NL, by FAR.

Anyway, I give it a year for his "stuff" to break down, and start showing his true colors against bonafide sluggers that can actually work against lefties.

[Anebriated]

I think I would add Chase Utley to that list as well(.318 vs lefties). Not that it really matters, just feel that he would have been the NL MVP had he not been injured. Either way I think he gets it this year if he has a season like he did last year when not injured.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

I only even give him one good season due to the lacking experience NL hitters have against him, combined with Shea Stadium. Allow him to move out of Shea, as he will the season after next, and give NL hitters a full season against him? Watch his ERA soar, and he'd be lucky to win 15 games.

[Kefka]

Somehow, I highly doubt he's gonna pull a Randy Johnson. Sounds more like wishful thinking.

[Sean of the Thread]

It made me sad when we dumped Delmon. It's really hard to be a TB fan.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Only two of those men I'd consider bonafide "lefty-killers", and one is likely going to the NL (Glaus). Magglio has a career year, and has always hit well for average to begin with. Don't expect him to duplicate his power numbers this year. As far as Manny, he falls into the "great at hitting anything" category. Lefties, righties, balls, strikes. Whatever. Aside from A-Rod and Ramirez, Johan had a lot of "decent" hitters to face, but none that were odds on favorites to crush every third pitch he threw.

I'm not arguing that the National League doesn't have a higher quantity of batters who hit well against lefties but I think you analysis of the American League is pretty far off. Even if you sort by OBPS instead of BA over a third of the top 40 belong in the AL. But lets even throw out individual players and just look at the broader stroke leagues..

2007:
LEAGUE AVERAGES GP AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
American League 121 1485 217 409 84 7 44 640 208 .276 .346 .432 .778
National League 125 1559 217 423 87 8 48 671 207 .272 .342 .430 .772

2006:
LEAGUE AVERAGES GP AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
American League 119 1576 218 426 89 6 51 682 208 .270 .340 .433 .772
National League 120 1432 202 380 77 8 46 609 192 .265 .340 .426 .766

2005:
LEAGUE AVERAGES GP AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BA OBP SLG OPS
American League 120 1569 218 419 80 8 49 664 207 .267 .331 .424 .755
National League 116 1403 184 372 78 8 40 587 176 .265 .337 .418 .755

If you look at the league averages per TEAM (he has to pitch 1-9 not just to your supposed lefty killers) both leagues are fairly equalized. It sounds like you just have some deep seeded hate for the AL.

[Latrinsorm]

Right now we are on the edge of signing FA 3B Feliz.Feliz should have won the gold glove, and I'd imagine he'd love to be on a competitor. Good luck getting any pitcher to come to Philly though.
They literally lost nothing in this deal.Apparently I'm the only one who loves Carlos. :(

As for the "Santana is mediocre" BS from PB&J, he's one of three active pitchers with three+ season WHIPs under 1, the other two being Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez. (Not Clemens, not Smoltz, not Webb.) Give it a rest.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Never said he was mediocre. I said his mechanics are simply above-average, but not tremendous. He'll be exposed by the greater volume of guys who can actually drive the ball against a lefty, in the NL. He's a ground ball pitcher who will be eaten alive by big Albert, and the rest of the aforementioned bonafide lefty-killers. Unlike his schedule in the AL, he will be facing a solid dominating slugger from the right side often enough to flash his inconsistancies, and mistake-prone pitching mechanics. His arm slot is off, his elbow will wear, and in two years, he'll be seen as the largest bust since Barry Zito. Mind you, I don't hate the guy, but I simply see his mechanics for what they are.

As far as hating the AL, that's far from true, as I actually prefer it to the NL. The idea of watching the Phillies makes me shudder, despite Victorino being rather energetic, and Rollins being probably the most potent sparkplug on any team since Carlos Beltran was with the Royals. Heck, the only NL games I even watch anymore are generally the Cubs vs. Cards, or Rox vs. anyone, but those games are few and far between.

You're all losing track of the point. Johan didn't REGULARLY face dominant sluggers that hit lefties well in the AL. He -will- as a Met. That's as simple as I can put it.

[Anebriated]

Whats wrong with my Phillies? You wanna take this out to the parking lot?

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

The pixel parking lot? SNICKER SNICKER FEAST

Anyway, they're boring. Nothing personal, but for a team that wastes solid pitchers like they do, it's not fun to watch. Aside from that, I mean come on. What's the most interesting player move they've made in the last decade? Getting Thome? Trading Schilling? Heck, I'd put Aaron Rowand over both of those deals, which is sad. Your prized team needs to grow a pair and get players that are worth watching! You only have three at the moment. :(

[BigWorm]

Whats wrong with my Phillies? You wanna take this out to the parking lot?

Mostly the pitching staff

[Hulkein]

They are boring over the off-season, no doubt, but how is a team with the last two NL MVPs and a third one who will eventually win one in Utley boring?

[BigWorm]

I just checked out their roster and I saw they signed So Taguchi. The So-man is totally going to put them over the top.

[Anebriated]

Yeah, I agree we do need to do something about the bullpen. I almost like the way our rotation is shaping up but I wont be happy until Eaton is out of PA. As far as not exciting, I can understand that, the team has been to 1 playoff in the last what 13 years? Look for that to change though, its a very young, very solid nucleus that has been built since Ed Wade left town(the reason we have Burrell, Eaton, had Thome etc). Rollins, Utley, Howard and Victorino should be fun to watch for awhile. Feliz should turn into a nice addition.

One last note about our pitchers, yeah we dont have strikeout kings(although hamels is pretty damn close) but we have ground ball pitchers which is exactly what we need in a hitter friendly park. If we can solidify the end of the rotation and the middle bullpen(damnit madson stay healthy for a season) then well be fine. Id rather watch a team built around homegrown talent than a team who buys their players every year(yankees, redsox).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by PBJT
You're all losing track of the point. Johan didn't REGULARLY face dominant sluggers that hit lefties well in the AL. He -will- as a Met. That's as simple as I can put it.

I thought I already demonstrated this but anyway, while the NL may have better individual batters vs left handed pitching its equalized by a team effort. Johan had to pitch 1-9 in the AL and he'll have to pitch 1-9 in the NL. The average splits per team are almost identical from the AL to the NL over the past 3 years (I didn't bother to look deeper but you're more than welcome to). Infact over the last 3 years the AL has a slight edge in all batting categories.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Anebriated
Id rather watch a team built around homegrown talent than a team who buys their players every year(yankees, redsox).

Certainly your prerogative however this wouldn't happen if teams like the Phillies were willing to pay their players instead of jerking them around. No one made the Phillies trade Abreu to the Yanks for $.30 on the $1. Philly is not a small market team and can afford to pay out they are just cheap. I'll sit back and laugh while you guys cheap your way into having to trade Ryan Howard out of town when he becomes a malcontent.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Sean, you're missing my reasoning. Hitters have never been all that much of an issue for Johan, SLUGGERS have. As a Minnesota guy, I'd rather see Joe Nathan or Pat Neshek come in against Manny Ramirez, Magglio Ordonez, A-Rod, or frankly any other right handed power hitter in the game. His HRs allowed have been rather decent, but again, that's a product of the lack of regularly facing all star sluggers who can work against lefties. Johan was at his best when nullifying the advantages that Matsui, Giambi, Ortiz, Hafner, and Thome had against pretty much every other pitcher on the Twins' staff, he wont be able to do the same when facing Pujols, Soriano, or the aforementioned Utley on a consistant basis. The AL's numbers are obviously swayed by the addition of a designated hitter, and a large number of DHs are right handed, aswell. To not consider this in your statements has been a large mistake.

Aside from that, the left-handed pitching in the AL is considerably worse than in the NL, and that, too, sways the stats. The lack of consideration given to two VERY relevant points when sorting league vs. LHP stats, leaves you little to no response.

[BigWorm]

One last note about our pitchers, yeah we dont have strikeout kings(although hamels is pretty damn close) but we have ground ball pitchers which is exactly what we need in a hitter friendly park. If we can solidify the end of the rotation and the middle bullpen(damnit madson stay healthy for a season) then well be fine. Id rather watch a team built around homegrown talent than a team who buys their players every year(yankees, redsox).

I think you're being a little optimistic about the front end of the rotation. Cole Hamels was playing way above his level last year. Jamie Moyer is like 1000 years old. Are you including Bret Myers, because who the fuck knows where he'll be pitching (I don't read the Inquirer, so maybe its been decided).

The Phillies just give up too many runs and turn every game into a shootout. They're like the exact opposite of the Padres.

[Hulkein]

Hamels wasn't playing over his level, he was playing the way everyone expected him to when he was drafted 7th or 8th or whatever it was.

Kendrick was playing over his head, maybe you meant him?

[BigWorm]

No, I meant Hamels. I don't think he'll be as good as he was is the first half all the time. He could go either way really though, last year was only his second, wasn't it?

[Hulkein]

Yeah. He should have been up earlier but has been injured through dumb shit like breaking his hand in fights to his naturally bad back.

If he stays injury free (big if) he'll be a top pitcher in the game.

[Anebriated]

Certainly your prerogative however this wouldn't happen if teams like the Phillies were willing to pay their players instead of jerking them around. No one made the Phillies trade Abreu to the Yanks for $.30 on the $1. Philly is not a small market team and can afford to pay out they are just cheap. I'll sit back and laugh while you guys cheap your way into having to trade Ryan Howard out of town when he becomes a malcontent.

Yeah ill concede the point they they are not small market team and they are pretty frugal with their players. What happened was Ed Wade made a few bonehead signings and its still fresh on people memeories and nobody wants to see it happen again.

I would have absolutely loved to keep Rowand, but I dont think he was worth the money he got to go to SF and I dont think he will have another career year out there. Great guy though, good clubhouse presence.

Abreu is another one I would have loved to keep, I forget exactly why we got rid of him but I know the reasons were there, I am happy for Bobby that he landed on his feet and is playing well still.

As far as Howard goes... Thats a weird story. Last year we offered him 1m with plenty of incentives if he signed a 1 year deal before arbitration kicked in and told him if he didnt sign he would get 900k flat. Howard thought he was worth more(league minimum is 350k for players in his spot) and tried to make a point by not signing, he got 900k. This year he is asking for 10m, after setting a league record in strikeouts. I dont agree with it, hes greedy. Power hitting first basemen are pretty common, I honestly dont care if we get rid of him in favor of someone else thats cheaper so our frugal front office can pay for pitching, we dont need hitters. Weve offered him 7m, hell probably end up somewhere in the middle. He is stuck with the Phillies for another few years no matter what and he had better hope he continues to perform because right now the Phillies have him by the balls, and if he slumps he will lose any chance at a nice fat long term contract. Bottom line, Howard isnt a Philly type player, he knocks em out of the park but the fans here like blue collar players, thats why we loved Rowand.

[Sean]

Originalyl Posted by PBJT
The AL's numbers are obviously swayed by the addition of a designated hitter, and a large number of DHs are right handed, aswell. To not consider this in your statements has been a large mistake.

You would assume this to be true but it's actually not. Of the DHs with a min 25 plate appearances vs Left Handed pitchers 7/11 are left handed (1 switch hitter) and the DHs in general all have their OBPS inflated by a high number of walks as only 1/2 their averages are above the median but all of them besides Thome and Giambi are well above the average OBP.


Aside from that, the left-handed pitching in the AL is considerably worse than in the NL, and that, too, sways the stats. The lack of consideration given to two VERY relevant points when sorting league vs. LHP stats, leaves you little to no response.

I'm not going to sit here and equalize for every single factor because crushing baseball stats isn't my job. If you want to try and normalize for ballparks, innings pitched/fatigue, fly/ground ratios, team defense, sabremetrics, etc. go ahead. But so far you've yet to present any actual statistical data to backup any of your claims so it would appear you're just going with your gut. You claim lefties in the AL are horrible but yet 4 of the top 5 defense adjusted era's per sabermetrics DIPS ERA w/min. 100inn pitched are AL lefties (or were) ... Sabathia, Bedard, Kazmir, Hamels, Santana .. Santana led all lefties in tough loses with 7 followed by Pettite, Buehrle, and Willis with 5. Santana had 0 cheap wins. If you switch over to component ERA based on hits+walks as opposed to runs again the AL wins over at the top with Bedard, Santana, Sabathia, Hamels, and Lilly rounding out the top 5.

So right about now until you start backing up your gut with some stats you really are left with little to no response.

[crazymage]

Feliz is fucking AWFUL. He's good with the glove but I think his obp is like 285-290, NOT his batting average, HIS OBP. Dobbs is a much better hitter and will probably start most games and feliz as a def replacement late.

[Hulkein]

Yeah Feliz is just replacing Nunez' glove. He's got more pop though and playing in our ballpark he'll be able to hit a fair amount of HRs.

[Anebriated]

Word Hamels, way to represent the NL!

Feliz batted around what, .250-.260 last year in SF's cavernous park? he should be able to bump that to .280-.300 in hitter friendly citizens bank park. Either way he was another right handed bat that our lineup needed, especially with the Mets aquiring Santana.

[Hulkein]

I doubt his average will go up much but he'll hit more HRs.

It's easier to get hits in bigger parks but harder to hit home runs.

[Anebriated]

He will also benefit from having so many potent hitters around him in the lineup.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Bah! Stats schmats. The only stats I need are the ones that'll prove me right a year from now, when Johan is recovering from surgery after the Mets make their short-lived playoff run. It's widely acknowledged that the mileage on his arm is going to take its toll within the next five years, and I'm simply stating it'll be sooner. Do to his akward mechanics, his ridiculous arm slot, I don't see him pitching at the level he has been for more than a year longer. 15-13 says a lot, even if the Twins didn't put much in the way of run support on his back. Now factor in the higher level of consistant opposition he'll be facing as a Met, and provided even two of the four prospects pan out, the Twins will have made a killing. Then they can focus on getting more prospects for Liriano, once he decides he's above the 20m/season they'll offer him, aswell.

[Latrinsorm]

Sean, you're missing my reasoning. Hitters have never been all that much of an issue for Johan, SLUGGERS have.In 2007, 16 of the top 40 slugging righthanders were in the AL. Somehow I think he'll manage.

[crazymage]

Bah! Stats schmats. The only stats I need are the ones that'll prove me right a year from now, when Johan is recovering from surgery after the Mets make their short-lived playoff run. It's widely acknowledged that the mileage on his arm is going to take its toll within the next five years, and I'm simply stating it'll be sooner. Do to his akward mechanics, his ridiculous arm slot, I don't see him pitching at the level he has been for more than a year longer. 15-13 says a lot, even if the Twins didn't put much in the way of run support on his back. Now factor in the higher level of consistant opposition he'll be facing as a Met, and provided even two of the four prospects pan out, the Twins will have made a killing. Then they can focus on getting more prospects for Liriano, once he decides he's above the 20m/season they'll offer him, aswell.

He repeats his mechanics perfectly everytime, hes not like Dontrelle who's all over the place, Johan is a TREMENDOUS athlete, he'll be a solid hitter for them too.

http://davewalker.org/idiot.jpg

[Hulkein]

In 2007, 16 of the top 40 slugging righthanders were in the AL. Somehow I think he'll manage.

Uh, that means 24 of the top 40 are in the NL... Not exactly helping your point.


He repeats his mechanics perfectly everytime, hes not like Dontrelle who's all over the place, Johan is a TREMENDOUS athlete, he'll be a solid hitter for them too.

You can repeat mechanics that put more stress on the elbow than most pitchers.

[crazymage]

rofl you know im right you just want him to get hurt so howard doesnt cry!!

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Actually, he's exactly right. His arm slot, aswell as his mechanics are the exact same no matter what pitch he throws. The bad part about that is, it's even worse on his elbow than someone who may throw a breaking ball with more bend in their arm, even if it tips the pitch slightly. This is one of the more exact ways pitchers have destroyed their arms over the last decade, most notably, Tim Hudson.

[Anebriated]

rofl you know im right you just want him to get hurt so howard doesnt cry!!

Im honestly rooting for howard to have a shitty year.

[crazymage]

Yeah hudson sucks.
2007 Atl 34 34 1 1 224.1 221 87 83 10 53 132 16 10 0 0 -- 3.33

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6245

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Did I say he sucked? Personally, I'd still rather have him at the top of my rotation than Mulder or Zito, but he's still garbage compared to what he could've been. Same will fall for Santana. He's playing as the peak of his career now, and will slowly drop down and fade into just another "decent" pitcher. Gomez will certainly be starting along side Cuddyer and Delmon Young in two, three years at most, provided he doesn't suffer a major setback. If even ONE of the arms that they pulled in develops well enough, the deal will be looked at as the perfect example of small-market success. Next up: Nathan for Jeremy Affeldt and three prospects, MAKE IT SO!

[crazymage]

please go flirt with Jenisi or something and stop talking baseball.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Maybe I will. MAYBE I WILL.

[Latrinsorm]

Uh, that means 24 of the top 40 are in the NL... Not exactly helping your point.My point is that 24 isn't an overwhelming numerical gain over 16 and that by the time we get to the #40 slugging pct. we're talking about guys like Tulowitzki as opposed to Rodriguez anyway. The breakdown is pretty much the same for IsoP. PLUS the best righthanded hitter in the NL is going to be on his team anyway.

[Hulkein]

PLUS the best righthanded hitter in the NL is going to be on his team anyway.

Pujols isn't on the Mets.

[Sean of the Thread]

You guys are just jealous that spring training is about to start again and I live smack dab in the middle of it.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Pujols isn't on the Mets.

LMAO. PWNT

[Latrinsorm]

Pujols isn't on the Mets.Have you seen Pujohls' mechanics? His knees and elbows are going to tear clean off any day now, I wouldn't be surprised if he hit .200!!!1

[Hulkein]

If you talk to pitchers and pitching coaches they would agree that some guys have motions that put abnormal amounts of stress on their elbow. What PB & J is saying isn't that far off. Who knows if he'll get hurt but there is a reason why they prefer pitchers to have mechanics that keeps the enormous amounts of stress off the elbow.

[BigWorm]

Have you seen Pujohls' mechanics? His knees and elbows are going to tear clean off any day now, I wouldn't be surprised if he hit .200!!!1

That's totally ridiculous. Pujols had no body batting behind him last year because La Russa is fucking retard and likes power like Chris Duncan's in the 2 spot. So instead of putting left handed power behind Pujols to protect him, he used Edmonds/Rolen, who were both pretty terrible last year. If Troy Glaus can stay healthy (which is a big if), I think he can protect Pujols enough that he'll get some pitches to hit.

Ask Brad Lidge if he thinks Pujols is going to hit .200 on the year. Pujols fucking ruined him as a pitcher.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

That was a joke directed at me. Anyway, with Glaus as protection in the lineup, he'll put up .290 45 120 this season anyway.

[crazymage]

That was a joke directed at me. Anyway, with Glaus as protection in the lineup, he'll put up .290 45 120 this season anyway.

please. PLEASE. STOP TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL.

[Stanley Burrell]

Right as Pedro returns home to his wife and thirty-two children, Don Zimmer is going to hop out of the bushes pumped up on Papi-roids and cut him.

[Latrinsorm]

Gomez? MIGHT be a solid OF.Gomez Hits for the Cycle (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280507104)

Hitting .282, .733 OPS, 13/1 SB/CS? Not too shabby. I'm sure they'd like their leadoff hitter to be on track for more than a dozen walks in a year, but still: YEY GOMEZ, LOL BRIELAVES.

[Bhuryn]

I am a life long twins fan, always will be. I love watching all baseball, especially the Twins and the Yankees/Red Sox (losing). Getting excited about more than 1 outta 5 games a week is much easier this year :).

I know everyone thought losing Santana and Hunter was going to kill this team (never was a Silva fan), but I think they're a much more well-rounded team this year. Some of these young arms are looking promising as well.

Now if their rotation could just stay healthy.