Latrinsorm
01-13-2008, 09:13 PM
So I had two warriors: both mastered in Warrior Tricks, one mastered in Disarm (Joe) and the other with 2 ranks (Steve), and the 2 rank guy with 0 ranks of CM. The first thing I did was investigate armor a little:
Put the defender at 139 armor ranks and in full plate. Removed the full plate and put it where it did not encumber him. Repeated with 140 armor ranks. The CM roll margin changed as follows:
Not at all.
Not only does wearing armor not impact a CML margin at all, but even being slightly *undertrained* in armor doesn't do anything to defending vs. Feint.
.
Next, I added CM ranks to him one by one and saw how the margin changed on Feint attempts going both ways. For all those who play pures and think that CM training does almost nothing for your maneuver chances...
...you're absolutely right. I found that every 5 CM ranks added 1(!!!!) to CM defense rolls. I also found that every 6 CM ranks added 1(!!!!!) to CM offense rolls (by feinting the other way). For anyone keeping score at home, this suggests that at cap a warrior gets a generic +40 to defense and +33 to offense (due to the way the breakpoints lie, at exactly 202 ranks).
[I'll just point out that getting up to 430 alone nets a bard (for instance) +45 eTD.]
.
Now, this is going to get a little complicated so I'm going to make a table here. This is keeping everything else constant such as CM ranks.
This table blows here. :(
Joe's Stance | Steve's Stance | Maneuver | Margin when Joe Attacks | Margin when Joe Defends
Off | Def | Disarm | 50 | 0
Def | Def | Disarm | -42 | -25
Off | Off | Disarm | 75 | 20
Def | Off | Disarm | -17 | -5
Off | Def | Feint | 0 | 0
Def | Def | Feint | -80 | 0
Off | Off | Feint | 0 | 80
Def | Off | Feint | -80 | 80
Things I want to point out:
1) All numbers are normalized to the 0 of off/def Feint when Joe Attacks.
2) It is verified that defender stance is irrelevant to Feint.
3) Going from Def to Off provides 80 for each warrior when attacking with Feint. (Worth noting here is that neither warrior had any training in the weapon used.)
4) When Joe goes from stance defensive to offensive, his Disarming margin is improved by 92 regardless of Steve's stance.
5) When Steve goes from stance defensive to offensive, his Disarming margin is improved by 25 regardless of Joe's stance.
6) When Steve goes from stance offensive to stance defensive, his Disarmed margin is improved by 25. The same is true for Joe. Put another way, the stanceable component of Disarm defense has *nothing* to do with ranks in Disarm.
Now, I also examined the numbers a little, trying to figure where 92 comes from (for instance). My best guess is 92 - 50 (ranks) - 25 (flat stance adder) = 17 which happens to be Joe's Strength Bonus / 2 + Joe's Dexterity Bonus / 3. This doesn't work for Steve unless we dictate that the Stat Bonuses can't be activated without any rank bonus.
.
Now I need some help. I need someone with access to something like Call Wind or Minor Ewave (a maneuver spell that does absolutely no damage to the target) and a *lot* of mana. I want to investigate the quantitative effect of both CM ranks and PF ranks on a spell such as these and see where it goes. However, because these are all hidden rolls, I want at least 100 trials at each rank. Because I need to see some combination of successes and failures and not all of one or the other, I also definitely need a character at or very close to level 68 (Steve's level). This testing will almost certainly take place over multiple days and everything else must be held constant, so this character can't do any leveling or training in the interim.
I recognize this is a pretty steep request, so I don't mind if I don't hear anything. Anyone up to it, please respond here or PM.
Put the defender at 139 armor ranks and in full plate. Removed the full plate and put it where it did not encumber him. Repeated with 140 armor ranks. The CM roll margin changed as follows:
Not at all.
Not only does wearing armor not impact a CML margin at all, but even being slightly *undertrained* in armor doesn't do anything to defending vs. Feint.
.
Next, I added CM ranks to him one by one and saw how the margin changed on Feint attempts going both ways. For all those who play pures and think that CM training does almost nothing for your maneuver chances...
...you're absolutely right. I found that every 5 CM ranks added 1(!!!!) to CM defense rolls. I also found that every 6 CM ranks added 1(!!!!!) to CM offense rolls (by feinting the other way). For anyone keeping score at home, this suggests that at cap a warrior gets a generic +40 to defense and +33 to offense (due to the way the breakpoints lie, at exactly 202 ranks).
[I'll just point out that getting up to 430 alone nets a bard (for instance) +45 eTD.]
.
Now, this is going to get a little complicated so I'm going to make a table here. This is keeping everything else constant such as CM ranks.
This table blows here. :(
Joe's Stance | Steve's Stance | Maneuver | Margin when Joe Attacks | Margin when Joe Defends
Off | Def | Disarm | 50 | 0
Def | Def | Disarm | -42 | -25
Off | Off | Disarm | 75 | 20
Def | Off | Disarm | -17 | -5
Off | Def | Feint | 0 | 0
Def | Def | Feint | -80 | 0
Off | Off | Feint | 0 | 80
Def | Off | Feint | -80 | 80
Things I want to point out:
1) All numbers are normalized to the 0 of off/def Feint when Joe Attacks.
2) It is verified that defender stance is irrelevant to Feint.
3) Going from Def to Off provides 80 for each warrior when attacking with Feint. (Worth noting here is that neither warrior had any training in the weapon used.)
4) When Joe goes from stance defensive to offensive, his Disarming margin is improved by 92 regardless of Steve's stance.
5) When Steve goes from stance defensive to offensive, his Disarming margin is improved by 25 regardless of Joe's stance.
6) When Steve goes from stance offensive to stance defensive, his Disarmed margin is improved by 25. The same is true for Joe. Put another way, the stanceable component of Disarm defense has *nothing* to do with ranks in Disarm.
Now, I also examined the numbers a little, trying to figure where 92 comes from (for instance). My best guess is 92 - 50 (ranks) - 25 (flat stance adder) = 17 which happens to be Joe's Strength Bonus / 2 + Joe's Dexterity Bonus / 3. This doesn't work for Steve unless we dictate that the Stat Bonuses can't be activated without any rank bonus.
.
Now I need some help. I need someone with access to something like Call Wind or Minor Ewave (a maneuver spell that does absolutely no damage to the target) and a *lot* of mana. I want to investigate the quantitative effect of both CM ranks and PF ranks on a spell such as these and see where it goes. However, because these are all hidden rolls, I want at least 100 trials at each rank. Because I need to see some combination of successes and failures and not all of one or the other, I also definitely need a character at or very close to level 68 (Steve's level). This testing will almost certainly take place over multiple days and everything else must be held constant, so this character can't do any leveling or training in the interim.
I recognize this is a pretty steep request, so I don't mind if I don't hear anything. Anyone up to it, please respond here or PM.