Welfare Epics and You

[oldanforgotten]

Well, some of the initial information has slowly been leaking out from development as to ideas to keep the general WoW populace from afking their ways to better epics, as well as limiting the total number of boss attempts for speeding through the game.

Honor points will no longer gain seasonal upgrades that are comparable to the highest tier of dungeons. In other words, Honor point upgrades will always stay with badge upgrades. I.E, always at least one or two dungeons worth of levels behind the highest instances. In layman?s terms, PvP epics purchased with honor would be capped at level 128 right now with the badge rewards (SSC/TK non tier and non end boss loot level).

Arena points will scale with a multiplier and minimum ratings for each season?s relative level of gear. For example, a 1500 2v2 rating would earn 200 points towards Season 1 Gear, but only 10 points towards Season 2 gear once that gear was released, and 0 towards Season 3 gear. At 1850, Season 2 would cap, and Season 3 points would begin to accrue, meaning at 1850, you would earn 400 points towards Season 1, 400 points towards Season 2, and 10 points towards Season 3. The effective caps would be adjusted with time. (For example, if Season 4 came out, a 1500 Rating would be 200/200/10/0). 2200+ teams (top 5%) would find themselves being able to purchase top end season gear at the same pace that a typical endgame raider would earn them. To compensate this properly at the top end, the top raiding teams would be given access to some level of Legendary gear.

Different Tiers of Heroic Dungeons. - Some heroic dungeons will be comparable to the lower end raiding dungeons of today, but some will be of higher level as well, to offer mid dungeon level rewards in 5 man content.

More dungeons, specifically higher end ones may require AQ40 style war efforts. - This will significantly slow endgame progress, as single guilds may find themselves taking weeks to open gates alone. Furthermore, the relative difficulty level of the dungeons will continue to decrease, albeit marginally, over time, as more guilds push the war effort from the minimum amount to open the gates, up until a final number of resources are obtained.

PvP objectives in High End Dungeons ? no idea what the hell this could be.

Two potential new battlegrounds with attunement chains to be eligible to participate in.

Racial Trait Adoption ? I?m not sure what the hell this is either, but speculation (wild speculation) is that you could be for example, an undead with stoneform, or a night elf with WoTF, or uber OP Tauren with WoTF/Undead with 5% more health in addition to the base trait.
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Trichome (http://trichomes.org)

[Methais]

QQers win again.

[Sean of the Thread]

Yeah what a crock of carebear shit.

[oldanforgotten]

Other than the changes requiring war efforts, and what is being wildly rumored with racials, I like the other changes. Gives a better balance to PvP/PvE epic progression. I think the war effort is unnecessary, because it just slows people down to all hell, but so be it. Honor Points = Badges, high level arena = high level raiding, and no more welfare.
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Digital vaporizers (http://digitalvaporizers.info)

[Some Rogue]

QQers win again.

QQ

What's the problem with actually having to be successful to deserve gear upgrades? I guess if I go in and wipe week after week and never down a boss in Mt. Hyjal, Blizzard should just send me epics in the mail after awhile.

[oldanforgotten]

Some people love easy loot I guess.
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Honda Passport (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Passport)

[BigWorm]

wtf is QQ, btw?

[Sean of the Thread]

wtf is QQ, btw?

QQ represents two eyes dripping tears aka crying.

[Celephais]

I prefer to think of them as two competing sperms... I hope you all see the Q's as little sperm now. Enjoy.

[Methais]

Some people love easy loot I guess.

It's not about easy loot. I don't need top tier stuff to do good in pvp. I do fine in blues and S1 garbage against people decked out in S3 gear, but thanks for trying.

The problem is that PvErs need to stop crying so much about what PvPers are doing and vice versa. Seriously, why is it so important to them? Instead of crying about some guy sporting welfare epics, they should be happy that they're sporting Rolls Royce epics.

PvP gear sucks for PvE and PvE gear sucks for PvP. And since all these raiders say they raid for the "lore" and all that shit (on the WoW forums anyway), why do they give the slightest shit if some schmuck has a bunch of welfare epics?

I bet if the welfare epics had the exact same stats but were blue items...something like "Aston Martin blues" instead of "welfare epics," you wouldn't hear any of these PvErs complaining.

[Tsa`ah]

It's not about easy loot. I don't need top tier stuff to do good in pvp. I do fine in blues and S1 garbage against people decked out in S3 gear, but thanks for trying.

It's not easy loot for those doing the work. Unfortunately Blizz hasn't really done a thing about afk leech bots.


The problem is that PvErs need to stop crying so much about what PvPers are doing and vice versa. Seriously, why is it so important to them? Instead of crying about some guy sporting welfare epics, they should be happy that they're sporting Rolls Royce epics.

Totally agree. An instance never changes. Each and every time (baring random boss or events ... but those fights never change either) a group is up against the same thing over and over again. Instances/raids for the most part are not all that difficult. In fact, once you clear an instance, it becomes easier and easier because .... it doesn't change. It's like reading the same book over and over, or playing a console game over and over.

PvP on the other hand tends to be completely random and is completely about a person's or group's ability to compensate each and every time.


PvP gear sucks for PvE and PvE gear sucks for PvP. And since all these raiders say they raid for the "lore" and all that shit (on the WoW forums anyway), why do they give the slightest shit if some schmuck has a bunch of welfare epics?

Not really true. It all depends on the class and build. If you were to take your typical random xrealm pug and pit them against a random group decked out in top tier ... the disparity is glaring. My hunter has been on the back burner ... well pretty much since I capped him after TBC. Most of the gear is crafted epic and blue and two pieces of non-arena pvp epic gear. Twice last night in AB I ran into a partial group decked in top tier and it was hell even against squishies. A fucking holy/disc priest pretty much just jumped around laughing because 1 on 1 I couldn't put out enough damage after two minutes to drop the fucker before backup came to corn hole me in 3 seconds.


I bet if the welfare epics had the exact same stats but were blue items...something like "Aston Martin blues" instead of "welfare epics," you wouldn't hear any of these PvErs complaining.

You would still here complaints. The PvE crowd is largely a passive aggressive crowd. They "hate" PvP until they get decked out with the bigger "I win" buttons.

That's why they cry about their "accomplishments" being lessened by "welfare epics". They can't join a PvP event and win if everyone is sporting gear remotely similar to theirs. It's the myth that it's harder to get gear out of raids than it is to get them through PvP.

It's actually easier to get gear from raids if you do it non stop ... it just takes an individual longer to do so because they have to contend with drop rates and time served.

When you think about it, it's far more difficult to earn PvP (non arena) gear when you factor in the afk leeches.

[oldanforgotten]

It'll be no different gear wise for top arena teams. They will still have the ability to purchase the same gear. As for you doing equally well in S1 and garbage, if you were doing so well, just 10 matches a week would have gotten you more than S1 and garbage blue gear by now.

As for the boss fights being the same over and over again, many of them are, many of them are not. There is a lot of randomness to some of the more difficult boss fights, which is why everyone and their mother hasnt gotten them down yet. Most people also forget how much gold and time is spent learning the encounters, where as PvP has little to no costs associated with it. Anyone who says those raiding is the same thing over and over again obviously has not seen top end raiding pre-BC or post-BC. While it becomes easier the more and more you understand the fights until eventually it's second nature, there's plenty about it to do that would prevent joe average from walking in and performing.

As for how difficult PVP epics are to obtain, in 3 days of partial AV premades, I was able to pick up 2 pieces of BT itemization level gear.

I have 3/5 vengeful and 2/5 merciless. We've been farming BT for a couple months now, and I just got my 3rd piece of T6.

I don't see a problem in forcing people to excel to get higher end gear. That's the point, and its not QQ, it's just a simple statement that people should earn it through doing well in arenas to get the top arena gear, and doing well in pvp to get top end honor gear.

From an image standpoint, it is ridiculous. There are people standing next to all of the Battlemasters wearing 6 greens, a blue, and then 2/5 vengeful, S1 weapons, etc.

Pre BC it needed a big buff. GM gear, which took arguably just as much if not more effort than collecting at least 5/9 T3, was garbage compared to AQ40 and Naxx gear in pvp, and as a result, dedicated pvp groups were getting destroyed by T2.5 and up in pvp. And raiding in GM gear was absolutely LOL, it was barely passable in the beginner instances like ZG. That buff has happened, but the problem is, the stuff is so retardedly easy to get that its taken the meaning out of pvp.
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CRF150F (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_CRF150F)

[Keller]

Anyone who says those raiding is the same thing over and over again obviously has not seen top end raiding pre-BC or post-BC.


Learned AQ40 and downed C'thun with two different guilds. Killed up to Grob in Naxx. PvE is the same thing over, and over, and over, and over.

That's why I solely PvP now. So, I guess maybe BC raiding is different in BT and above -- but I'll never know. And I'm thrilled with that.

[Apathy]

Link to info?

[Solkern]

Well, Im a fulyl decked out shaman, one of the best geared on spinebreaker
and no Shaman in pvp gear can match me in PvE at all, not a chance
On the other hand, A pvp geared shaman will spank shit in PvP, while, Me in the PvE gear won't do as well
THough my burst dmg, and sorts are way better
resil, Health and so forth go to the pvp

[Solkern]

Learned AQ40 and downed C'thun with two different guilds. Killed up to Grob in Naxx. PvE is the same thing over, and over, and over, and over.

That's why I solely PvP now. So, I guess maybe BC raiding is different in BT and above -- but I'll never know. And I'm thrilled with that.


Sorry I have to disagree

Yeah, the bosses are the same, but alot of things are random, which makes it different each attempt, and makes it extra extra hard

we wiped 2 straight days on archimonde, if the fight was teh same, we would have downed him on our 2nd or 3rd attempt

End game PvE raiding is fucking hard shit

[Keller]

Sorry I have to disagree

Yeah, the bosses are the same, but alot of things are random, which makes it different each attempt, and makes it extra extra hard

we wiped 2 straight days on archimonde, if the fight was teh same, we would have downed him on our 2nd or 3rd attempt

End game PvE raiding is fucking hard shit

Like I said -- I've not done BC prgression raiding.

And w/r/t pre-BC, I never said it wasn't difficult -- but that it was static. Nothing changed. I loved the Twin Emps encounter as a healer because it was truly a test of our skill to manage our mana pools and keep tanks topped off. But once we downed them -- I don't think we wiped more than 1-2 times again. That's how PvE bosses are -- you learn them and don't really wipe again. Difficult? Yes. Requires paying attention? Yes. Static? Yes.

[Sean of the Thread]

Zadiac sucks balls.

[Some Rogue]

Like I said -- I've not done BC prgression raiding.

And w/r/t pre-BC, I never said it wasn't difficult -- but that it was static. Nothing changed. I loved the Twin Emps encounter as a healer because it was truly a test of our skill to manage our mana pools and keep tanks topped off. But once we downed them -- I don't think we wiped more than 1-2 times again. That's how PvE bosses are -- you learn them and don't really wipe again. Difficult? Yes. Requires paying attention? Yes. Static? Yes.


Did any loot drop when you wiped?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Keller]

Did any loot drop when you wiped?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

That's not what we're discussing.

[CrystalTears]

That's not what we're discussing.
However his point is that you have to actually achieve victory in raids to get gear, as opposed to being able to sit around AFK in PvP and still earn honor and eventually earn gear, even if you lose every game.

PvPers really think that their gear should be as good as raiders? Seriously?

[Some Rogue]

QQ

What's the problem with actually having to be successful to deserve gear upgrades? I guess if I go in and wipe week after week and never down a boss in Mt. Hyjal, Blizzard should just send me epics in the mail after awhile.


It's not easy loot for those doing the work. Unfortunately Blizz hasn't really done a thing about afk leech bots.




That's not what we're discussing.

Well we were til it was derailed.

[Keller]

However his point is that you have to actually achieve victory in raids to get gear, as opposed to being able to sit around AFK in PvP and still earn honor and eventually earn gear, even if you lose every game.

PvPers really think that their gear should be as good as raiders? Seriously?

I understand his point. But being competitive in PvP, I don't really take offense to it.

And I think the outline Tamral gave is fair. Currently, there is no way Ryask deserves t6 pvp gear, no.

[Keller]

Well we were til it was derailed.

I was responding to Tamral's post.

[CrystalTears]

I doubt Ryask has T6 gear. Didn't you just prove the point that someone shouldn't have really good PvP gear for being a mediocre player?

And I'm seriously needing validation for this Tamral shit. Someone clue me in goddamnit.

[Keller]

I doubt Ryask has T6 gear. And you're going to single out one person for the basis that PvP deserves to be on par with PvE gear?

And I'm seriously needing validation for this Tamral shit. Someone clue me in goddamnit.

She has S3 pvp gear. I was using her as an example of a welfare epic recipient.

[CrystalTears]

Bah, I had edited my post too late. You people are too fast. :D

[Keller]

Bah, I had edited my post too late. You people are too fast. :D


Mediocre? That's aweful kind of you. =p

[CrystalTears]

Mediocre? That's aweful kind of you. =p
She's not that bad, it's just that she's a bitch. I'd rather raid/PvP with her than Kalandra any day. Now THAT is one fucking horrible player.

[Trouble]

I rode the welfare epics train myself. My couple months on a 1500 team got me 2 pieces of S3 and then I was able to pick up the S3 accessories and 3 pieces of S1 with honor. I went from 30-ish resilience to 400+ overnight. Of course I usually only use one or two PvP pieces in PvE and one or two PvE items in PvP so it works out in my opinion.

I need to get back on a functional arena team... of course, that would require me to log in once in a while.

[Keller]

I rode the welfare epics train myself. My couple months on a 1500 team got me 2 pieces of S3 and then I was able to pick up the S3 accessories and 3 pieces of S1 with honor. I went from 30-ish resilience to 400+ overnight. Of course I usually only use one or two PvP pieces in PvE and one or two PvE items in PvP so it works out in my opinion.

I need to get back on a functional arena team... of course, that would require me to log in once in a while.

But you're pretty good. I'm sure a month on a good team and you'd be excellent.

[Some Rogue]

I'm glad a "PvP'er" can admit getting PvP epics is easy. :D

[Keller]

I'm glad a "PvP'er" can admit getting PvP epics is easy. :D

Always have. Being good at pvp is hard, though.

[oldanforgotten]

Like I said -- I've not done BC prgression raiding.

And w/r/t pre-BC, I never said it wasn't difficult -- but that it was static. Nothing changed. I loved the Twin Emps encounter as a healer because it was truly a test of our skill to manage our mana pools and keep tanks topped off. But once we downed them -- I don't think we wiped more than 1-2 times again. That's how PvE bosses are -- you learn them and don't really wipe again. Difficult? Yes. Requires paying attention? Yes. Static? Yes.

Which is precisely why some of the BC bosses have been changed to incorporate more randomness into them. There are specific fights that can create a mess no matter how many times you?ve downed the boss. Guilds that have had BT on farm for months still wipe OFTEN on some bosses.

Vashj: This is technically the most difficult fight in the history of WoW. While not random, there is no pre-BC encounter that can match it. The primary difference is instead of 40 people, you have 25, which helps in reduction of the ?we carry 10 idiots in the raid? approach. If a naga spawns in a bad spot and aggros on the strider kiter immediately as he?s passing, GG. Even an intervene may not save them, because of the cleave.

Archimonde: While easier for the Horde at current due to the usefulness of WoTF in this fight ? the first bossfight in which nobody is allowed to die. Fears in a choose to use manner up to every 40 seconds. 3 doomfires running around him, which do a ton of damage over time to anyone who it touches. Places a curse on a random raid member every 6 seconds that does 2500 damage per 2 seconds for 5 minutes. Fears can often make 5-6 people in the raid take this debuff which has to be healed through. Hits for 10k on full T5 plate. Can easily nuke a tank during a fear, so healers have to rotate trinkets out, and 6.5-7.5k when CoW is up with the tank chainchugging ironshield pots and has the priest/shammy armor buff up. Bounces random people up in the air every 10-15 seconds, landing them 100 yards away and they need to trinket slowfall or die (except rogues or with the engineering cloak), if they get bounced while a fire dot or the curse is on them, GG, because they are most likely out of range for healing or a dispel. And if one person dies, he gains a soul charge that does a 4.5k AE to the entire raid, and one other shitty effect depending on the class of the person who died. If that AE kills someone, he gains another soul charge, and there is no limit to how many he can have. 1 death often = wipe.

Bloodboil: Incredibly heal intensive. 3 groups of 5 people rotating a debuff that does 15k damage over 30 seconds and must be healed through. If someone misses their assignment, someone can take multiple stacks of that debuff. Every hit Bloodboil lands on the tank applies a debuff that reduces armor by 250 and does 250 damage/2 seconds for 1 minute, stacks up to 99 times. Every minute he has a fel rage on a random non rage user, which increases their damage by 3x, increases their HP by 30k, and increases healing done by 2x. He then gains 2x damage and beats on them for 10-12k on clothies (20k+ crits), and MS?s them, which must be healed through. By the 5th attack, he has 40% haste as well. If that person dies, he annihilates the tanks. Mages and other clothies sometimes simply cannot be healed through if they were also ticking from bloodboils.

Illidan: the NPC that joins you at 50% is an asshole, because he?ll lay those traps down in random places. Sometimes its impossible to get Illidan to the traps without turning your back to him, and that means occasionally eating a shear. The fight is otherwise not difficult at all, but a bad trap placement will wipe ANYONE.

No one is saying it takes a rocket scientist to clear this stuff. But it does take time and effort, and the rate of payoff is significantly less than pvp, and while you need to excel in raiding to get access to some of the best gear, you don?t need to be successful in pvp to get everything. And even though you get it slower by not excelling, the fact that you can afk your way to BT quality epics is an issue.
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HERBAL HEALTH SHOP (http://herbalhealthshop.com)

[Sean of the Thread]

Whilst I agree with most of what's being said I think there is too much credit being given to the pvp gear. It's not spectacular at all. Arena points while time consuming are just plain easy to get with little to no effort.

It's so craptastic that I've yet to spend any of my honor on it.

I regularly whoop full purple pvp geared assholes with a blue and green bear.

[Some Rogue]

Whilst I agree with most of what's being said I think there is too much credit being given to the pvp gear. It's not spectacular at all. Arena points while time consuming are just plain easy to get with little to no effort.

It's so craptastic that I've yet to spend any of my honor on it.

I regularly whoop full purple pvp geared assholes with a blue and green bear.

Try playing a non-OP class. :yes:

Sure, the gear may not be great for your spec, which I don't believe, but for many it's as good or better than PvE gear.

[Sean of the Thread]

Try playing a non-OP class. :yes:

Tee hee.

[Some Rogue]

Oh, and what server is this godly druid on? It's surely not on Dunemaul. :P

[Nieninque]

Imagine a game where people played it because they enjoyed it instead of crying about what other people get?

Fucking little wankers.

[Sean of the Thread]

Hmmm I wonder if blue and green bear can beat Nekk? Have been 50/50 or so from memory vs rogues but that's usually because I get jumped in the middle of whatever I'm doing rather than straight up.

[Some Rogue]

You probably could because bears beat rogues like 99% of the time and I almost never PvP with him (and still have more HK's than you lolol).

[Sean of the Thread]

You probably could because bears beat rogues like 99% of the time and I almost never PvP with him (and still have more HK's than you lolol).

He doesn't pvp... he's a tank!

I'd say over 2/3rds of the HK were from being jumped.

[Xinister]

I haven't posted here in such a long time, but I just wanted to respond to the thread. Is there a link to confirm what is being posted?

Arena points will scale with a multiplier and minimum ratings for each season’s relative level of gear. For example, a 1500 2v2 rating would earn 200 points towards Season 1 Gear, but only 10 points towards Season 2 gear once that gear was released, and 0 towards Season 3 gear. At 1850, Season 2 would cap, and Season 3 points would begin to accrue, meaning at 1850, you would earn 400 points towards Season 1, 400 points towards Season 2, and 10 points towards Season 3. The effective caps would be adjusted with time. (For example, if Season 4 came out, a 1500 Rating would be 200/200/10/0). 2200+ teams (top 5%) would find themselves being able to purchase top end season gear at the same pace that a typical endgame raider would earn them. To compensate this properly at the top end, the top raiding teams would be given access to some level of Legendary gear.
If they ever implement a system like the above where only top % of teams get all the new gear and mediocre teams will never see the light of day for any of the new items. Then, the majority of the WoW PvP population will never get new gear. NEVER.

In PvE, no matter how much you suck and wipe on a boss, you still have HOPE that you will beat it and get gear. If there is a limitation of how many times you wipe on a boss and there is a point system associated, similar to being mediocre in PvP, will you still PvE?

Our arena team does not recruit and they are great at PvP, however, we do lose from time to time since our team makeup may not be the best. Having no healers or dispellers hurts for certain encounters. I have fun nether the less, and we still pwn in BGs.

I play WoW for the sole PvP aspect and can not care less about PvE content. If PvP yields NO chance of rewards, then it will be time to walk away from WoW.

IMHO, Honor points for Season 1 gear takes a lot of time also for people that do PvP and not AFK the whole time. It takes a certain amount of time to get the gear since in our battlegroup games in AV go 70/30 in favor of the Alliance.

The problem is still people that AFK and this does not solve that issue. It just penalizes everyone else.

[oldanforgotten]

I don?t have a link, it?s mostly pieced together information from some WoW interview in a British Magazine about moving forward, combined with things that were being reviewed as ideas for WoTLK. NONE of these implementations will be a part of 2.4, and most are simply ideas that have some steam behind them as per the dev teams in interviews and as well as from Blizzcon, where they admitted and affirmed the terminology of welfare epics, and some of the ways they were looking to remedy the problem.

Now, to address your points. First off, the number of people with season 3 gear (BT level) vastly outnumbers the people wearing Tier 6. In fact, as of Blizzcon, they made some ridiculous assumptions about the ratio. Secondly, in terms of gear progression, mediocre raid teams progress extremely slowly, and of the 30,000 or so guilds with tracked raiding progression, less than 1,000 in the US are in BT. Less than 5,000 have downed more than Lurker and VR. Compare that with how many people are picking up Season 3 gear, which is comparative to Tier 6. As for having hope? It?s the same hope you have of improving your arena ratings. PvP will still yield plenty of rewards. Just as badge rewards go up every couple of patches, so will honor point rewards.

If you want access to higher Tier gear in raiding, you either improve at raiding, and get with a group of people who are like-minded, or you don?t get the gear. Same rule should apply for PvP. Now that we?ve strung down to 2 raiding days a week for BT farming, I got my arena rating up in the high 1900?s - low 2000?s in PvE/PvP mix gear, and most of my guildies who focus more on PvP have been able to hit the 1900-2100 mark with ease, it?s just that breaking those top levels is more difficult, where the best of pvpers are separated from the rest. We had a couple of gladiators (but only 7 or 8 of the core 34 got it, and all of them were from a particularly strong class balance 5v5 team), and many people did get their eyes opened as to how strong some of the pvpers are in the 2000+ range, but seriously, getting to 2000 last season in 2v2 and 3v3 (which is well above the threshold for getting at least some level of points towards top season gear in the proposed idea) was not difficult at all, and took just a few weeks.

The 2v2 team was rogue, resto druid, MS warrior, holy pally
3v3 team was shadow priest, rogue, MS warrior, holy pally, resto druid, mage
________
Michigan Medical Marijuana Dispensaries (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[Tsa`ah]

Anyone who says those raiding is the same thing over and over again obviously has not seen top end raiding pre-BC or post-BC.

Heh .. raided plenty pre-bc, have raided plenty post-bc Tamral.

It's the same thing over and over again. There are variables, but those become predictable.

Once you have downed a boss, it's easier the next time and if you do it enough times ... it becomes more or less habitual reaction.

The only thing "easy" about PvP is leeching off of other people. Then again, this is done in PvE as well.

PvE = rat learning as it moves through a maze. Every time the rat completes the maze it reduces the total amount of time it takes each and every instance until you come to a point where you can blindfold the rat and it will still complete the maze.

PvP = a rat fight where the opponent is always different. Sometimes as a rat you're up against a field mouse ... sometimes they throw in a feral cat.

Want to remove the PvEers crying about how easy it is to get PvP epics ... remove afk leechers ... and start banning them. It certainly will make it easier for me to get epics that way.

[Some Rogue]

Heh .. raided plenty pre-bc, have raided plenty post-bc Tamral.



LOL

[oldanforgotten]

As for the implementations, I will make a correction, some of the changes are supposedly confirmed and in for 2.4.

The sunwell will require an AQ40 style war effort to open the instance, with many NPC's in shattrath changing to SSO NPC's, and the 5 man heroics in the Sunwell will offer different rewards than previous dungeons. Whereas previous level 70 dungeons dropped level 109 blues in regular mode and a 115 blue off the final boss, the Sunwell 5 man regular dungeons have level 110 blues off the earlier bosses and a 105 epic on the final boss.

At the heroic level, previous dungeons had the same loot table for all but the end boss, who dropped a level 100 epic. The sunwell 5 man heroics have level 110 epics for all bosses and a level 115 (kara quality) from the final boss.

Ok Tsa'ah, how far you raid up to pre-BC, and how much BC raid content you seen? up through BWL was a joke, and even Naxx wasnt difficult, just class dependant for some fights. I'd love to see you do Vashj, or Archimonde blindfolded, because guilds that have been farming Hyjal for months still wipe a couple times a week on him.

You're characterizing all bosses as learn and ezsauce. Well, getting a 1900-2000 arena rating is utter ezsauce too, which nets the same rate of reward. So is winning at BG's. Occasionally, a challenge, but nothing overly difficult.

I'll happily admit that it is MORE of a challenge to go up against some of the top rated arena teams (in the 2200+ range) and win than it is to do even the most difficult of bosses, because they, unlike bosses, learn from playing against you, and it becomes more and more difficult to repeat the process. But until you've seen that level of pvp, you haven't seen difficult. The reason most teams hover in the 1400-1700 range isn't because pvp is hard. Arena PvP below 1900 is much easier than raiding, and many of the higher end raiders and PvPers sold 1850 ratings to others in their spare time because it was free gold, and ezsauce to do.
________
TOYOTA SPORTIVO COUPE HISTORY (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Sportivo_Coupe)

[Xinister]

PvE instances reset every week.
So even though you (in general) suck in PvE, you still can get gear the next week if you join in a guild already farming the instance.

However, the PvP items are usually based on Personal ratings and these ratings reset every SEASON. If you want to improve your personal rating, you may have to wait a whole season before gathering players of like mind. Even then it may not work out, and you just wasted a lot of time. Another problem is Blizzard does not disclose any information on season dates, and each season can span many months.

[CrystalTears]

So even though you (in general) suck in PvE, you still can get gear the next week if you join in a guild already farming the instance.
Sure because everyone is in a really good raiding guild and it's totally easy to get in one. Guilds love to take people who suck in their raid.

[oldanforgotten]

PvE instances reset every week.
So even though you (in general) suck in PvE, you still can get gear the next week if you join in a guild already farming the instance.

However, the PvP items are usually based on Personal ratings and these ratings reset every SEASON. If you want to improve your personal rating, you may have to wait a whole season before gathering players of like mind. Even then it may not work out, and you just wasted a lot of time. Another problem is Blizzard does not disclose any information on season dates, and each season can span many months.

Yes, because all BT/Hyjal raiding guilds are just waiting for apps who want to come in and farm gear with them while not being attuned for anything.....

You're welcome to come buy a Hyjal run up to Archimonde, or BT run with us up through the Council. 1500g for Hyjal and 2500g for BT, and you can purchase items we would otherwise DE for 2-4k a pop (no Tier gear yet though, because some of us are still putting together multiple sets).

We'll even key you and up to 4 other friends once a month, but that's expensive too.

But I stress again, anyone who plays well and sticks at it, can easily obtain a 1900-2000 arena rating. It's easy as hell.
________
Yamaha qy10 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_QY10)

[Xinister]

But I stress again, anyone who plays well and sticks at it, can easily obtain a 1900-2000 arena rating. It's easy as hell.How many teams on your server is above 1900 right now?

[oldanforgotten]

PvE instances reset every week.
So even though you (in general) suck in PvE, you still can get gear the next week if you join in a guild already farming the instance.

However, the PvP items are usually based on Personal ratings and these ratings reset every SEASON. If you want to improve your personal rating, you may have to wait a whole season before gathering players of like mind. Even then it may not work out, and you just wasted a lot of time. Another problem is Blizzard does not disclose any information on season dates, and each season can span many months.

Ok, if you want a personal rating of 1850, here's the ezsauce way to do it, and this should be common knowledge by now considering how many people are doing it. Make a team of you, someone else who wants the rating, and your 2 alts. Have the 2 alts bring the team rating down to 1300. Every week, you and partner play games against the garbage and win, and your alts play 30% of the games and afk out. By the team your team is 1600, your personal rating will be near 1900. If you and partner can't get to 1600, and you're whining about wanting season 3 epics, just get it over with and quit.
________
N02 vaporizer (http://no2vaporizers.com)

[Xinister]

Ok, if you want a personal rating of 1850, here's the ezsauce way to do it, and this should be common knowledge by now considering how many people are doing it. Make a team of you, someone else who wants the rating, and your 2 alts. Have the 2 alts bring the team rating down to 1300. Every week, you and partner play games against the garbage and win, and your alts play 30% of the games and afk out. By the team your team is 1600, your personal rating will be near 1900. If you and partner can't get to 1600, and you're whining about wanting season 3 epics, just get it over with and quit.I am planning a similar method.

[oldanforgotten]

How many teams on your server is above 1900 right now?

I dont know, where is the list? Server: Mal'ganis

My guild had about 15 total teams above 1900 last season. 6 or 7 2v2, 5 3v3 and, 3 or 4 5v5. Most of those teams were over 2000, and 3 or 4 teams over 2100, only 1 team made gladiator, and only 7 or 8 of the 10 got the rank, but they were close to 2300.

Then again, we didn't even start playing arenas until october when we got Illidan down, so most of those ratings were gotten in the 3-4 weeks we had left in the season.
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD (http://mmjp.org)

[Xinister]

I dont know, where is the list? Server: Mal'ganis

My guild had about 15 total teams above 1900 last season. 6 or 7 2v2, 5 3v3 and, 3 or 4 5v5. Most of those teams were over 2000, and 3 or 4 teams over 2100, only 1 team made gladiator, and only 7 or 8 of the 10 got the rank, but they were close to 2300.

Then again, we didn't even start playing arenas until october when we got Illidan down, so most of those ratings were gotten in the 3-4 weeks we had left in the season.

Yes, you went against a majority of PvPers that probably had no access to EPIC gear last season and made it easily to 1900.

Try again this season with PvPers that have access to Season 1 gear and try to get 1900?

Wait... isn't this why PvEers are crying about since they are getting trumped in PvP and don't want them to have access to PvP gear?

[oldanforgotten]

Yes, you went against a majority of PvPers that probably had no access to EPIC gear last season and made it easily to 1900.

Try again this season with PvPers that have access to Season 1 gear and try to get 1900?

Wait... isn't this why PvEers are crying about since they are getting trumped in PvP and don't want them to have access to PvP gear?

Uhh, they had access to merciless gladiator gear last season. Most teams even in the 1500 range had plenty of it.
________
Model u (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Model_U)

[Xinister]

Uhh, they had access to merciless gladiator gear last season. Most teams even in the 1500 range had plenty of it.

People had access to merciless gear, but not everyone is sporting 5 pieces and weapons at 1500 rating.

I am pretty sure I read that Blizzard wants to keep PvE and PvP separate parts that players can enjoy. Also, Blizzard indicates WoW as a more casual player friendly game, rather than a hardcore player game.

If the distintion between casual and hardcore gear grows too wide, then I am pretty sure some adjustments will be made by Blizzard since the majority of the player base is NOT hardcore/top anythings.

[Nieninque]

Tamral is a stupid cunt.

[oldanforgotten]

People had access to merciless gear, but not everyone is sporting 5 pieces and weapons at 1500 rating.

I am pretty sure I read that Blizzard wants to keep PvE and PvP separate parts that players can enjoy. Also, Blizzard indicates WoW as a more casual player friendly game, rather than a hardcore player game.

If the distintion between casual and hardcore gear grows too wide, then I am pretty sure some adjustments will be made by Blizzard since the majority of the player base is NOT hardcore/top anythings.

There has always been a distinction between gear levels. 3/5 Season 1 and 2/5 Season 2 is an incredibly small overall difference than 5/5 Season 2, and most any 1500 team had access to that. Furthermore, the regular honor epics more than make up the gap, since they were always available to everyone.

In pre-BC, just about everyone could get ZG/T1/AQ20, whereas the hardcore people had T3/AQ40, which is a much bigger gap than the current gap from T4 to T6, especially because the badge rewards are comparable to T5, and are available to everyone. The disparity is not that big, and not nearly as big as some people want to think. For PvP purposes, T6 is inferior or comparable to Season 1 pvp gear for PvP, and S3 gear is inferior to T4 for PvE. But you misconstrue the whole point of hardcore vs casual. The game is for casual players, but there is content defined in PvE that is not available to casual players, namely Hyjal/BT and the Sunwell. The same is the case for PvP, where there is no rule stating casual people should get decked out in S3 PvP/level 141 vindicator pvp gear.

The game is meant for casual enjoyment. However, content is established for hardcore players. Casual players may find that content too difficult or stressful to deal with. The hardcore content offers the best rewards, because rewards coincide with effort. If you play for pvp only, why would you object to a system that allows only those who excel at pvp to obtain the best rewards?

It was also the more hardcore pvpers who complained the loudest at Blizzcon about people afking to the same gear they had earned the hard way. To answer the amount of work it takes, that?s also an issue, and one I don?t much care about myself, but some did. It cost us 4 full raids of attempts on archimonde to bring him down. And even then, to get 25 people a helm, takes a minimum of 13 weeks. How long does it take a 1500 team to get the S3 helm?

In fact, the whole complaint level has put Season 4 in jeopardy, and there may be no new gear ( I haven?t heard anything about it coming with 2.4), which means yet again, pvp itemization is going to lag behind raid itemization. In order for the 2 to be separate but equal, the efforts needed to balance the process of gear progression needs to be similar. A person with a 2300 arena rating in all 3 brackets earned full Season 2 gear precisely 3 whole weeks ahead of the person with a 2000 rating in all 3 brackets. Other than a mount at the end of the season, no additional rewards for being one of the best as opposed to simply someone with a clue. Yet the difference in skill level, dedication, and effort between a 2300 and a 2000 is tremendous, akin to the difference between a boxing match between a champion and some random journeyman.
________
Roll A Joint (http://howtorollajoint.net/)

[Xinister]

Maybe they should not have allowed the Arena Point carry over. That would have eliminated getting Season 3 gear in the beginning of the season.

However:

Arena points will scale with a multiplier and minimum ratings for each season’s relative level of gear. For example, a 1500 2v2 rating would earn 200 points towards Season 1 Gear, but only 10 points towards Season 2 gear once that gear was released, and 0 towards Season 3 gear.
If Season 3 were to commence with the logic above, then the 1500 team will never see a current season piece of gear. Also, if you save the points for season 2 gear it will take you many many months to get 1 item.

10 points per week? Even now, season 2 Weapon is 3000+ points.

[oldanforgotten]

People had access to merciless gear, but not everyone is sporting 5 pieces and weapons at 1500 rating.

I am pretty sure I read that Blizzard wants to keep PvE and PvP separate parts that players can enjoy. Also, Blizzard indicates WoW as a more casual player friendly game, rather than a hardcore player game.

If the distintion between casual and hardcore gear grows too wide, then I am pretty sure some adjustments will be made by Blizzard since the majority of the player base is NOT hardcore/top anythings.


And just consider this. In terms of casual player content, in addition to dailies, quests (none of which are exclusive to hardcore players) etc..

The following is the only dungeon content that is generally restricted from casual players:
Hyjal
Black Temple
Sunwell

The following dungeon content is casual level 70 content:
Karazhan
Tempest Keep
Serpentshrine Cavern
Gruuls Lair
Magtheridon?s Lair
Karazhan
Zul Aman
Regular and Heroic Shadow Labs
Heroic Mana Tombs
Heroic Auchenai Crypts
Regular and Heroic Arcatraz
Regular and Heroic Botanica
Regular and Heroic Mechanar
Regular and Heroic Black Morass
Heroic Durnholde
Regular and Heroic Shattered Halls
Heroic Blood Furnace
Heroic Hellfire Ramparts
Regular and Heroic Steamvaults
Heroic Underbog
Heroic Slave Pens

If you?ve exhausted yourself of all the casual content, then you?re a hardcore player, and either you?re not good enough, or you?re in the wrong raiding guild.
________
Ford Dew Platform (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_DEW_platform)

[Xinister]

It was also the more hardcore pvpers who complained the loudest at Blizzcon about people afking to the same gear they had earned the hard way. To answer the amount of work it takes, that’s also an issue, and one I don’t much care about myself, but some did. It cost us 4 full raids of attempts on archimonde to bring him down. And even then, to get 25 people a helm, takes a minimum of 13 weeks. How long does it take a 1500 team to get the S3 helm?

I am not a hardcore player, but hate AFKers as much as the next guy. AFKers may not be working, but those that are trying to win the BG with those AFKers are picking up their slack.

So, the assumption is that the non-AFKers are working twice as hard to get the same amount of honor.

Some people saved up the whole season 2 arena points to get the Season 3 gear in the beginning of S3. If you believe that 1500 rating teams get all merciless gear in Season 2, then 1500 rating team goes into Season 3 getting all S3 gear. That may be a misconception.

[oldanforgotten]

Maybe they should not have allowed the Arena Point carry over. That would have eliminated getting Season 3 gear in the beginning of the season.

However:

If Season 3 were to commence with the logic above, then the 1500 team will never see a current season piece of gear. Also, if you save the points for season 2 gear it will take you many many months to get 1 item.

10 points per week? Even now, season 2 Weapon is 3000+ points.

That would encourage teams to try harder or actually work towards getting it. Makes it an actual reward then. Season 2 sword for rogues pvpwise is very comparably to the Fang of Vashj/Talon of Azshara for raiding.
________
Health Shop (http://herbalhealthshop.com)

[Xinister]

And just consider this. In terms of casual player content, in addition to dailies, quests (none of which are exclusive to hardcore players) etc..
Exactly, WoW is made for casual players.

If you’ve exhausted yourself of all the casual content, then you’re a hardcore player, and either you’re not good enough, or you’re in the wrong raiding guild.
I don't do instances or raid, just PvP with friends as I wait for WoTLK and get lvl 71 greens that are > that your EPIX.

[oldanforgotten]

Exactly, WoW is made for casual players.

I don't do instances or raid, just PvP with friends as I wait for WoTLK and get lvl 71 greens that are > that your EPIX.

When BC came out, MC/ZG/AQ20 gear was replaced pretty much right away by new level 60 greens. Tier 2 was replaced by level 65 or so, AQ40 gear by 67, but the Naxx gear actually was better than anything you could get until the 70 dungeon blues. Same will probably carry over for arena gear, with S3 probably lasting till at least mid to late 70?s.
________
Babi Mac (http://twitter.com/SwiperboyzBabiM)

[Xinister]

When BC came out, MC/ZG/AQ20 gear was replaced pretty much right away by new level 60 greens. Tier 2 was replaced by level 65 or so, AQ40 gear by 67, but the Naxx gear actually was better than anything you could get until the 70 dungeon blues. Same will probably carry over for arena gear, with S3 probably lasting till at least mid to late 70’s.So, my DPS warrior will still be good for another 10 levels after WoTLK comes out.

Anyway, Blizzard should fix the AFK problem in BGs and everything will resolve itself.
I think arena is fine with the points right now. If the top % of teams continue to get better gear, then they will always be on the top % and PvP becomes uncompetitive/steamrolled.

WoW Arena is 75% gear, 5% skill, and 20% team coordination. If Blizzard does not even out the GEAR, then it will be very unbalanced in terms of Arena PvP.

Rather have each team start naked at the beginning of the Season and have them earn PvP gear, then the weight can be shifted to either skill or team coordination. Thus, becoming more competitive.

[Methais]

It'll be no different gear wise for top arena teams. They will still have the ability to purchase the same gear. As for you doing equally well in S1 and garbage, if you were doing so well, just 10 matches a week would have gotten you more than S1 and garbage blue gear by now.

I have more than S1 and blue gear now. I was saying that even in S1 gear and blues (and some greens even) I would do fine against people in top tier stuff. Thanks again for trying though.


That buff has happened, but the problem is, the stuff is so retardedly easy to get that its taken the meaning out of pvp.

The meaning of pvp is to kill the opposition and/or complete your objectives before the other team does the same to you. A lot of peoples' motivation might be for gear (which they then use to pvp more effectively, otherwise they're just wasting their time since the only other alternative is to PvE with it, and it's shitty pve gear), but the "meaning" of pvp is still the same.


PvPers really think that their gear should be as good as raiders? Seriously?

PvPers think that their gear should be as good for pvp as raid gear is for raiding. Unlike pre-TBC where pvp gear was outclassed by pve gear in both pve and pvp.


Tamral blah blah blah

So that's who oldanforgotten is. Things makes a lot more sense now.


Which is precisely why some of the BC bosses have been changed to incorporate more randomness into them. There are specific fights that can create a mess no matter how many times you’ve downed the boss. Guilds that have had BT on farm for months still wipe OFTEN on some bosses.

I'll admit I haven't done any BC endgame raiding (did all the pre-BC stuff up through Instructor Raz and the spider wing in Naxx), but this sounds similar to how GS hunting is "challenging", like how you walk into a room and get imploded before the room even comes up. Even though you've killed that critter a million times before, you still got pwned by some random fluke.

Random catastrophes =/= challenge.


No one is saying it takes a rocket scientist to clear this stuff. But it does take time and effort, and the rate of payoff is significantly less than pvp, and while you need to excel in raiding to get access to some of the best gear, you don’t need to be successful in pvp to get everything. And even though you get it slower by not excelling, the fact that you can afk your way to BT quality epics is an issue.

Except even if you're some total retard that's decked out in S3 stuff, people that know how to pvp well are still going to mop the floor with you, even if you outgear them most of the time. Whereas you could be the most skilled raider on the planet, but unless you have the gear that the instance requires, you're not gonna be killing anything.

So what's the problem again?


Imagine a game where people played it because they enjoyed it instead of crying about what other people get?

Fucking little wankers.

^



Our arena team does not recruit and they are great at PvP, however, we do lose from time to time since our team makeup may not be the best. Having no healers or dispellers hurts for certain encounters. I have fun nether the less, and we still pwn in BGs.

:yeahthat: since we're on the same arena team. Our 3v3 makeup sucks (mage, warrrior, warrior), but we beat most teams that don't have a hunter, which tend to rape me if they're BM specced, which 99.9999% of arena hunters are, and since 2.3 there seem to be hunters everywhere. Same with 2v2, which is the same makeup (mage+war or war+war). Though we've sort of abandoned 2v2s since 3v3 queues are almost always instant, whereas 2v2s are usually 5-10 minutes or so. And our 5v5 is out of commission right now until our paladin comes back.

But like he said, we pvp for the fun of it and could care less what raiders are doing. Unfortunately there are a ton of raiders that have their panties in a bunch over pvpers getting gear despite the fact that it blows for the stuff raiders do.

Not to mention every raider has the option to run 10 games a week and get their pvp epics if they really wanted to. Not everyone has the option to join a raiding guild and spend X hours per week at Y day and Z time to run the same dungeon over and over. And yes I'm aware that there are people out there that work 167 hours a week, have a wife, 6 kids, 2 mortgages, 3 car notes, coach a soccer team, are in a bowling league, and still find the time to raid. Good for them.


Compare that with how many people are picking up Season 3 gear, which is comparative to Tier 6.

This is the problem with WoW. People give far too much a shit about things that don't need to be giving a shit about, such as that. OH NOES, PVPERS ARE GETTING GEAR THAT FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE IS JUST AS GOOD AS MY T6 GEAR IS FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE, with the bold being the part that people overlook so easily while they QQ.

When someone goes into BT decked out in S3 gear and does better than the people decked out in T6 gear, then raiders will have something to cry about. Until then they need to stfu and quit whining about what other people are doing and just enjoy what it is they're doing.

Raiders have fun raiding, pvpers have fun pvping, and a good pvper will still beat a bad pvper unless there's a huge gear difference. What exactly is the problem again?

On a side note, aren't rated BGs supposed to be coming out in 2.4?

[oldanforgotten]

Except even if you're some total retard that's decked out in S3 stuff, people that know how to pvp well are still going to mop the floor with you, even if you outgear them most of the time. Whereas you could be the most skilled raider on the planet, but unless you have the gear that the instance requires, you're not gonna be killing anything.

So what's the problem again?

This is the problem with WoW. People give far too much a shit about things that don't need to be giving a shit about, such as that. OH NOES, PVPERS ARE GETTING GEAR THAT FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE IS JUST AS GOOD AS MY T6 GEAR IS FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE, with the bold being the part that people overlook so easily while they QQ.

When someone goes into BT decked out in S3 gear and does better than the people decked out in T6 gear, then raiders will have something to cry about. Until then they need to stfu and quit whining about what other people are doing and just enjoy what it is they're doing.

Raiders have fun raiding, pvpers have fun pvping, and a good pvper will still beat a bad pvper unless there's a huge gear difference. What exactly is the problem again?

On a side note, aren't rated BGs supposed to be coming out in 2.4?

And yet again you miss the point. The people QQing most about it at Blizzcon were the higher rated teams that were annoyed that far lower rated teams had such close gear progression as they did, and they wanted for there to be an actual sense of accomplishment in achieving and obtaining the highest levels of pvp gear. While the raiding community was QQing, so were the better pvp?ers. And if gear matters to you so little, why does it bother you at all if the system is changed for WotLK? You?re not getting any nerf now, this is all proposed for the next expansion, and since you?re great at pvp, you?ll still have the earlier season gear, and easily pwn all the noobs with higher ratings and better gear anyway. So whats the problem?
________
Weed vaporizers (http://weedvaporizer.info/)

[Methais]

And yet again you miss the point. The people QQing most about it at Blizzcon were the higher rated teams that were annoyed that far lower rated teams had such close gear progression as they did, and they wanted for there to be an actual sense of accomplishment in achieving and obtaining the highest levels of pvp gear.While the raiding community was QQing, so were the better pvp’ers.

So then why do the top rated teams give a shit if some low rating guy has the same pvp gear as them? If they're wanting a sense of accomplishment, shouldn't their uber ratings be enough of an accomplishment to stroke their e-peen with?

Not to mention if they're so obsessed with gear setting them apart, then they should be happy sporting their S3 weapon and shoulders, so they can walk around showing off their weapon and shoulders so the lower rated people will gawk at how awesome they are on an internet game.


And if gear matters to you so little, why does it bother you at all if the system is changed for WotLK? You’re not getting any nerf now, this is all proposed for the next expansion, and since you’re great at pvp, you’ll still have the earlier season gear, and easily pwn all the noobs with higher ratings and better gear anyway. So whats the problem?

The problem is, just like the majority of nerfs that have happened in this game since release, it's a stupid change that doesn't need to happen, and is only happening because of people crying over things that don't effect anything but their e-peen. Just because it's not really going to have an effect on me doesn't make it any less stupid of a change.

This whole thing reminds me of some whiny spoiled bitch getting pissed off and throwing a fit because another girl showed up to the party wearing the same dress as her. And that's pretty much all this is at the end of the day.