View Full Version : Sexual Harrassment.
Weedmage Princess
12-11-2003, 01:51 PM
Well it's pouring outside and I'm terribly bored so if I start coming up with all kinds of out there threads, that's why.
Anyway, yesterday morning I had to attend orientation for my job (the new company took over July 1 and we're just getting orientation in December? But I won't go into that) ..and what seemed to be the main objective of the meeting was to talk about harrassment. In particular, sexual harrassment.
They made quite a few interesting points, one in particular is about how people tend to perceive sexual harrassment differently, and that women tend to be more sensitive to the subject than men are...because they're more subjected to harrassment and violence of that nature. Fair enough. They handed out this sheet with different scenarios on it, and a couple that were on there seemed...wrong..I guess..to me. Here they are, and tell me what you think.
1) A company issues out new uniforms. A lady walks into her supervisor's office and he's talking with a new hire. He acknowledges the lady's entrance into the office and comments that she looks nice in her new uniform. The woman is bothered by her supervisor's comment. It mentions that she may be sensitive to things of that nature because she had issues with sexual harrassment at her previous job and left because of it. The sheet said that while the supervisor's offense wasn't punishable, he should be repremanded and advised against such comments in the future. I disagree with that. Just because he said the lady looked nice???
2) On the flip side, a male employee walks into his female supervisor's office, and notices a new black and white poster of a nude man. The supervisor notices the employee staring at it and remarks, "Well it's a good thing that's a black and white art poster, otherwise you could have me written up for sexual harrassment." And there's nothing wrong with that scenario. Uh..I don't get it. Don't get me wrong...I have a very healthy appreciation of the male body (ahem) however...there's a time and place for everything...your place of business is NOT a place to hang up nude posters. And just because it's black and white doesn't mean it's art, either. I mean...are pornos shown on a black and white television suddenly not pornography but art..because it's not in color?
I just thought that was a bit....off. There were other scenarios that yeah, were clearly sexual harrassment and clearly not...but those two stuck out in my mind. Am I the only one who disagrees with their views there? Or am I missing something? If so, point it out to me cause I'd love to know.
HarmNone
12-11-2003, 01:54 PM
I am with you, Weedie, on both of those. The first is nit-picking at its finest. The latter is just an example of bloody poor taste in business wall decor.
HarmNone
Czeska
12-11-2003, 01:54 PM
Agreed. Once time at a bank I worked at we had a meeting of this nature. The scenario was again, one where the man tells the woman she looks nice. He smiles. She tells him she's offended and such. It was a short video clip.
After we watched it the supervisor asked me what I thought. I said.. "Do you really want to hear?"
He said yes, and I replied.. "I think she's uptight."
Parkbandit
12-11-2003, 01:58 PM
The key sentence in there is:
"The woman is bothered by her supervisor's comment."
It's only sexual harassment if it is unwanted. In the 2nd example, you made no reference to the male employee feeling bothered or uncomfortable.
Weedmage Princess
12-11-2003, 02:10 PM
That's true, Parkbandit. Unless I'm forgetting something else on the sheet about the nude poster scenario, I think it was implied he was bothered, cause he stood there staring at it..that's how I took it.
About the woman being uncomfortable with her supervisor saying she looks nice. You're right. If it's not wanted, it's harrassment. They said that on the video!! (you watched it too..haha) but..I mean...maybe she should say something to someone or to her supervisor about it...if it bothered her that much..and if he were to keep making comments on her appearance after the fact, then yeah he'd deserve to be repremanded. But I think to be repremanded the first time around is a bit much. Maybe someone saying to him "Mr. Whatever, Miss Whoever didn't feel comfortable with your saying she looked nice the other day, so try to keep your conversation very vague and general with her." woud be more...fair, I think.
Wezas
12-11-2003, 02:11 PM
The 1st one is rediculous
:::hangs his black and white naked female picture next to his desk:::
Don't see anything wrong with the second though.
Parkbandit
12-11-2003, 02:14 PM
If the male employee was bothered by the image.. be it black and white, color, neon... it's sexual harassment.
Sexual harassment isn't what you say or what you have up on the walls.. it's how you make a co-worker feel.
15 years of management Weedie :) I don't think I've seen the video you talked about.. but trust me.. I've seen my fair share.
Snapp
12-11-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Parkbandit
Sexual harassment isn't what you say or what you have up on the walls.. it's how you make a co-worker feel.
That's a good point.. You can say "you look nice in that new uniform" and it can be harassment depending on how he said it. I can think of some pretty creepy-ass ways... <insert heavy breathing>
Weedmage Princess
12-11-2003, 02:32 PM
That's true. But he didn't even say it to her when they were alone. The scenario was in was in the office with a new hire, she walked in to get something, he said hello, you look nice in your new uniform, then went back to his discussion with the new hire. It wasn't blatant..like on the video where the dude was asking for help with a project after work and kept staring down the woman's blouse...then made comments about her shirt looking nicer on his bedroom floor. Or the woman bending over and the dude feigning to grab her ass...heh.
Wezas
12-11-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
It wasn't blatant..like on the video where the dude was asking for help with a project after work and kept staring down the woman's blouse...then made comments about her shirt looking nicer on his bedroom floor. Or the woman bending over and the dude feigning to grab her ass...heh.
I need this video.
Ravenstorm
12-11-2003, 05:21 PM
What if it was a Maplethorpe photo?
Or reverse the second one around.
What if the employee had been a woman with a male boss and that was a naked woman on the wall? Everyone feel the same?
Or how about if that was a painting by Rubens instead?
Just tossing out some questions.
Raven
Weedmage Princess
12-11-2003, 05:24 PM
I think either way a naked poster on the wall in a place of business is harrassment...or in poor taste at the least. In either situation I'd blow the whistle on that one.
Parkbandit
12-11-2003, 05:28 PM
I agree... I have no problem with art depicting the human female body, but it doesn't belong in the workplace.
I think its just all pretty stupid. If you got a problem with somebody hit em in the face and be done with it.
CrystalTears
12-11-2003, 05:59 PM
Personally I think the whole sexual harrassment issue has gone way out of hand. It's given women more reason to hollar that for the slightest thing (including that first scenario) just because "they didn't like it" when all they had to do was speak to one of their supervisors and have them spoken to. Having a charge of sexual harrassment on your file because some chick can't handle a comment as simple as how nice you are looking is just out of control.
There's a world of difference between a boss asking their subordinate into their office and demanding sexual favors, and someone commenting about this or that. The purpose of sexual harrassment isn't so much that something that is said or done that is uncomfortable, it's that it's out of your control. Working in an office with two other people and they have a picture of two people screwing which you find offensive can be considered sexual harrassment, even if all three are of the same gender. Walking by and hearing two men tell a joke about having sex with a woman isn't because she can walk away.
Sexual harrassment and people suing each other for the slightest provocation is what's messing up this country's values, IMHO.
Bestatte
12-11-2003, 06:27 PM
The whole sexual harrassment thing is silly. If people learned to police their own, then they wouldn't need laws like these.
Situation #1 - the woman needs to grow herself a spine and learn to take a compliment.
Situation #2 - eh. Poor taste, yes. Harrassment, no. Unless the owner of the picture asked the viewer his/her opinion of it, or otherwise pointed it out to him/her.. then I'd say it's likely the owner's way of instigating an issue that didn't previously exist. In the case you spelled out, I'd say this was a case of instigation, because the owner challenged the viewer, almost as though daring them to charge the owner with harrassment over it.
I worked once at a place where the boss used to stare at my chest all the time, and even had the nerve to suggest I wear tighter sweaters to attract the customers. Press charges? Fuck no. I walked out and told everyone I knew what a lecher he was. He couldn't find anyone who'd work for him longer than a month after that. Self-policing is the way to go.
Weedmage Princess
12-11-2003, 06:54 PM
Yes but the problem with self policing is you have some employers who are a bit more timid and workers who might for whatever reason not be able to just up and leave that job. Also, some employers (you'll find this a lot in your private sectors) tend to play favorites. They know Person X is an ass, he or she's been known to harrass other employees...but he or she is also pretty tight with the boss/owner...so they get away with murder. Ideally, yes, it'd be nice if the person can just say See Ya like you did and walk out. However, for some people, a job means food on the table, a roof over their head, clothes on their back and health coverage. It's essential that they have a job at all times so they can't just up and leave. These laws are in place I think to protect those folks. There's no reason they should be subjected to that.
But I agree this...just like almost everything else in our society today, has been taken to an extreme. Moderation and tolerance went out with the 50's I guess.
**toleration? Did I make up a new word?!
[Edited on 12-11-2003 by Weedmage Princess]
Latrinsorm
12-11-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by RangerD1
I think its just all pretty stupid. If you got a problem with somebody hit em in the face and be done with it.
I think RangerD's really a chick. :yes:
I also think that there's no man in the world who would make the comment in #1 unless he was talking to someone he REALLY knew well. Most men I know are pretty paranoid about that kind of thing. Someone you know, sure, but a casual acquaintance? Nah.
Caramia
12-11-2003, 07:39 PM
In the first instance, the woman is apparently overly-sensitive to any comment that SHE might interpret as sexual. The boss isn't a mindreader, though, so how can he know this? He doesn't need the reprimand, she needs psychological counseling.
In the second instance, workplaces seldom need nude photography or art displayed prominently in offices, which could make anyone -- clients included, uncomfortable.
There are certain workplaces I would see as exceptions. Museums, art schools, design magazines, to mention a few.
Ravenstorm
12-11-2003, 08:12 PM
Scenario 1.
The boss was doing a public service. After all, everyone knows how insecure women can be so he was merely attempting to reassure the employee that the new uniform did not make her ass look huge.
Raven
Edaarin
12-11-2003, 09:09 PM
Women are objects created for our personal amusement.
I think RangerD's really a chick. :yes:
eh? How so?
Ravenstorm
12-11-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Edaarin
Women are objects created for our personal amusement.
Torment. Personal torment. Sort of like the Furies.
Raven
Edaarin
12-11-2003, 09:58 PM
"It's okay to lie to women, they aren't people like we are."
10 brownie points if anyone can tell me where that quote is from.
Kurili
12-11-2003, 10:01 PM
With more and more women driving Big Trucks (tractor/trailers) the sexual harassment films you see at each orientation are absolutely ludicrous.
It's been awhile, but in one scenario, a VERY pregnant woman was approached by a male who said, "Oh, you're expecting! When is the happy event?" That was considered harassment. Now excuse me, but if a pregnant woman is so sensitive about her condition that she's offended by something that innocent, she should keep her butt in her house till after the delivery.
Conversely, there were not too many ways we females could really harass the men. Which is a joke, and I laughed over it at every orientation I ever attended. We females are just as capable of being sexually harassing jerks as the males are. Just the males dont seem to be big babies about it, and take small humor the way it's intended. Usually. In my experience anyway.
I actually patted one male student's knee one time. Didnt mean it as sexually harassing, I was teasing about his unwillingness to drive into Chicago the next day for the first time. We both realized that it WAS harassment, according to films, and laughed hysterically. He held that over my head, jokingly, until he graduated training.
Acolyte Kurili
AnticorRifling
12-11-2003, 10:39 PM
She should keep her knocked up butt in the house. Please get it right :cool:
I hate politically correct crap but that's just shallow me. I'd get more into it but I really don't feel like reading the hate mail about how I am insensitive...
Bestatte
12-11-2003, 11:50 PM
One of my old bosses used to joke about me being his "jew broad secretary." I took offense at the "jew" part, but not at the "broad" part. Mostly because at the time, I was about as far from being "broad" as I've ever been in my life, so that part was funny.
I got tired of the jew thing so I started introducing him to people as my greasy swede boss. He thought it was hillarious. Go figure <shrug>
Another boss used to introduce me to the vendors as "My gal Roberta." I was the Marketing Secretary for the company, one of the biggest dairies in Connecticut which held most of the state contracts at the time.
Lemme tell ya something..never in my life have I been so proud to wear a title like "My Gal." Old Jack was the sweetest thing when he'd call me that, with his wrinkly blue eyes looking at me with admiration like I was some kind of treasure. The old guy was 65 at the time, reminded me of my grandfather back in the day. Damn I miss my old guy. And that's what I would call him too. Old Guy. The office manager used to wait for him to blow his stack at me over it. He never did. He WAS old, and he WAS a guy. So why would he take offense at it?
Same with me. My Gal...<sniff> Such a sweet thing to say. Let those radical feminists have their MS. and their Text Engineer titles. I'll gladly be a Gal Friday or Steno or Secretary any day.
Kurili
12-12-2003, 12:19 AM
Anticor, can you imagine companies being forced to try to make sure their over-the-road truckers were PC and 'sensitive'? THAT still makes me chuckle. But laws demand it now.
Acolyte Kurili
(edited to correct typo)
[Edited on 12-12-2003 by Kurili]
Weedmage Princess
12-12-2003, 06:14 PM
Anticor if I were your boss and I slapped your ass and said "Nice work on the project there, now get me a beer toots."....would that be harrassment?!?!?!?!
Tsa`ah
12-12-2003, 09:22 PM
The laws and policies in place are vague as it is.
I have to attend some "awareness" crap about once every three months. Sexual harassment is a norm in the discussion. We have to be aware of differing levels of sensitivity in every aspect of the job and those that we manage. Personally I think 97% of it is a load of crap.
There are flaws in just about every scenario you can think of. Take the first for instance. The woman becomes offended when a comment is made about her appearance in the provided attire. Would that woman be offended if someone she felt an attraction for had made the comment? Chances are the answer is no. She'll be flattered.
So do we now consider sexual harassment any comment or request originating from someone we are not attracted to? The whole thing is ridiculous and has turned into a cash cow for the legal profession.
My remedy is pretty simple. If you're going to manage/supervise any number of people, get to know them. Work with them, not over them, and you'll never have a problem.
One of the most up-tight feminists I have ever met is attached to my team and I can comment that she looks sexier in glasses than in contacts if I want. She knows I'm married. She knows I'm faithful. She knows I'm professional. Most important, there is mutual respect.
Harassment in any form is easy to identify.
Sexual advances are harassment.
Racist comments are harassment.
Derogatory remarks are harassment.
Telling someone they look good in a uniform is flattery.
Hanging up nude pictures at work (aside from a photography studio and the Playboy mansion) is stupid.
Bestatte
12-12-2003, 09:34 PM
On the art issue:
I'd just like to comment that anyone who'd be offended by a framed Reubens print hanging on the wall autta be shot. I wouldn't let someone that uptight work for me in the first place. Not because I discriminate against women, but because I discriminate against people with bad taste. Fortunately, that particular brand of discrimination is NOT illegal.
Kurili
12-12-2003, 11:03 PM
I had a Playgirl pic of a nude male on the wall by my grooming table at one Dog Grooming shop I managed. My four female co-workers thought it was great. And for the very rare occasion an 'outsider' came into the grooming room....we had a lacy handkerchief pinned in an appropriate place, where it could be dropped over the 'delicate area' of the picture. Naturally...then the husband or whoever else it was who came to the backroom HAD to lift the hanky to see what was under it. Duuh...like they didnt know? It was fun. But it was also all mutual from women who'd worked together for years.
Acolyte Kurili
It is only sexual harassment if the person doing it is not found attractive...
Kurili
12-13-2003, 12:00 AM
The....you are so very right. Or if it's percieved there may be money in it for the one claiming harassment.
Acolyte Kurili
as much as you all think im cocky... ok I am just a little but I know that where I work I can get away with a lot of "sexual harassment" that others who work with me could not... <if i so desired it which I do not>
Kadumi
12-14-2003, 10:19 PM
After the video is over and the lights come on, loudly as 'ok, who wants to fuck?'
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