Do Conservatives Want to Keep this Country White?

[Lysander]

The question is, do conservatives have a bent toward keeping America White or at least keep Whites in the majority. The reason I ask is recently, my GF, who is half Hispanic, had some close friends whose parents were whisked away without warning by the INS back to Colombia. Now I'm beginning to question my own views and especially why

Personally I'm a fiscal conservative and I have some socially conservative views, including keeping the borders on lock down. I would even go as far as to say to eliminate ALL immigration and not just the illegal ones. I believe that social cohesion is the best way to improve the lives of Americans, it keeps wages afloat, diminshes crime,keeps government spending in check and overall brings social harmony. It's a win for America.

However, recently, I've been having thoughts about how much of all this is perhaps racially motivated, at least for me. I've been thinking about the time I first met my girlfriend,who you would definetly not think as Hispanic unless she goes into her Spanish tirades. (she has blue eyes blonde hair and has paler skin then me). Would I have even spoken to her if I didn't think she was White? How much of my views on immigration is based on race? Would I be as apprehensive about the issue if it were Europeans coming over the border?

I know this forum has some strong political views. So I was just curious, has anyone else thought about the issue in this way? Do you think I'm right or wrong about the issue? What do you think and do you think I should change my views?

[Stanley Burrell]

I dunno.

I guess if you're a social and fiscal conservative, you're gonna have to be more open to open borders.

Can you imagine if White America actually decided to start cleaning corporate agriculture for below minimal? That'd be fucking crazy. Like, we might use the Internet less. Scary thought.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Illegal immigration isn't limited to the hispanic population. They are just the largest portion of it and that is due to geography. They're right next door.

I don't believe that wanting to resolve the illegal immigration problem is racially motivated. They are here illegally. They need to go. Period. I don't care if they are Chinese, Russian, German, whatever. If they are not here legally, they need to go.

If the USA REALLY wanted stop illegals from coming from Mexico, they would start deporting people and charging Mexico for it. They can't pay? Take it in exports. We'd happily make use of their oil. You bet your ass if Mexico were charged the fees involved for deporting a person that they would stop encouraging people to run the border illegally.

If you wouldn't have initiated contact with your girlfriend if you knew shew as Hispanic beforehand, then yes, that is racist.

If your apprehension about border running applies only towards Hispanics, then yes, that is racist.

If you are equally open to deporting a Russian as a Mexican, then that is not racist.

[Stanley Burrell]

If the USA REALLY wanted stop illegals from coming from Mexico, they would start deporting people and charging Mexico for it.

This is probably a rich Rebublican versus poor Republican argument. Or as I like to refer to it as, "Douchebag versus Redneck."

[Lysander]

Illegal immigration isn't limited to the hispanic population. They are just the largest portion of it and that is due to geography. They're right next door.

I don't believe that wanting to resolve the illegal immigration problem is racially motivated. They are here illegally. They need to go. Period. I don't care if they are Chinese, Russian, German, whatever. If they are not here legally, they need to go.

If the USA REALLY wanted stop illegals from coming from Mexico, they would start deporting people and charging Mexico for it. They can't pay? Take it in exports. We'd happily make use of their oil. You bet your ass if Mexico were charged the fees involved for deporting a person that they would stop encouraging people to run the border illegally.

If you wouldn't have initiated contact with your girlfriend if you knew shew as Hispanic beforehand, then yes, that is racist.

If your apprehension about border running applies only towards Hispanics, then yes, that is racist.

If you are equally open to deporting a Russian as a Mexican, then that is not racist.

You see I was much like you on this point. But the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the immigrants to this country are not from Russia but from Mexico and other non-white nations. Thinking about it this way, and I mean really thinking about at a sub-conscious or whatever level, how much of it is it about the race of the immigrant rather then any other factors.

You've pointed out that you wanted them deported because it's illegal or in violation of the law. But, why do you agree with that law? Do you believe the law is there to benefit all Americans? How does it benefit Americans?

Usually at this point people will argue all sorts of points as to the benefits or disadvantages to illegal/legal immigration and thats what makes it so difficult to come to a decision at least for me. Because most of those points have large grey areas, and because of this I can't completely eliminate the prospect that it is really about race.

[Sylvan Dreams]

The immigration laws are there to monitor who comes into our country. I'm in agreement with that. There's benefits and disadvantages to the immigration laws, and in having illegal immigrants. For me, it's very simple - they are violating the law. Personally, I don't care where they are from. If they're violating the law, then they need to adhere to it, and in the case of illegal immigration, that means they need to go. That is just MY opinion, though.

Who can say for absolute certain if it's about race or not? You can argue it either way. If the the majority of our illegal immigrants were coming from Canada, would there still be anti-illegal immigrant feelings? Or would it be 'okay' since they are (odds are, anyway) going to be some flavor of white?

We aren't going to be able to tell you if your thoughts on the subject are racially driven or not. In my own opinion, it sounds like they are.

[Lysander]

I guess I understand your viewpoint.

[thefarmer]

But the fact of the matter is the vast majority of the immigrants to this country are not from Russia but from Mexico and other non-white nations.

As an American, you probably have more in common with the Mexican than you do with the Russian.

In fact, the Russian's skin pigment is probably more closer to the Mexican's, than to yours, which somehow makes the non-white comment kinda moot for me.

[Daniel]

In fact, the Russian's skin pigment is probably more closer to the Mexican's, than to yours, which somehow makes the non-white comment kinda moot for me.

What part of russia?

I can about guarantee you that people form Russia "proper" and not those annexed in earlier times are undoubtedly "white"

P.s. For the OP the answer is Yes.

[TheEschaton]

The problem is immigration laws are, themselves, racist. No one's talking about building a fence on the Canadian border, and I guarantee you any Canadian who wanted to could easily jump our border.

Or maybe elitist. We don't mind same-standard-of-living Canadians jumping borders, because then they're doing it because they love the smell of our home-fried freedom. We mind when poor, dirty Mexicans do it, because they're here to "take our jobs," and supposedly don't care about the freedom bit.

-TheE-

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm like 21321% confident that there is a highly negligible number of illegal immigrants from Canada that are taking up the nation's resources.

<<I believe that social cohesion is the best way to improve the lives of Americans, it keeps wages afloat, diminshes crime,keeps government spending in check and overall brings social harmony. It's a win for America.>>

Whoever told you that is retarded.

<<If they're violating the law, then they need to adhere to it, and in the case of illegal immigration, that means they need to go. That is just MY opinion, though.>>

I hope to Christ that you have received an appropriate punishment for every illegal act you've ever committed ever, no matter what the law was.

[Gan]

Up until 1852, you could only be naturalized if you were white, ie. the naturalization act of 1795, 1798 (repealed in 1802). 3rd Congress.

Before the fourteenth amendment, individual states could set their own naturalization standards.

1875 Page Act addressed people of African decent specifically and allowed naturalization, yet left out all other origin countries.

The Immigration act of 1917 excluded all asian immigrants from applying for citizenship.

The Immigration and Reform Control act of 1986 allowed illegal aliens who were in country for at least 4 years to apply for citizenship.

Answer to the OP: No

Econonomically speaking, immigration benefits the wealthier class of Americans in as much as it hurts the poorer classes of Americans.

Other bones of contention:
1. Crime (do illegal immigrants cause more crime?)
2. Healthcare (do illegal immigrants cause a drain on indigent healthcare resouces?)
3. Education (how do illegal immigrants burden our education system?)

[Daniel]

The problem is immigration laws are, themselves, racist. No one's talking about building a fence on the Canadian border, and I guarantee you any Canadian who wanted to could easily jump our border.





And if you think otherwise, one need only look at the Chinese exclusion act and realized that most of these laws or their precedents were put into place well before this was enacted.

The simple fact of the matter is alot of conservatives only seem to care about immigration as it pertains to brown people. You don't see alot of talk about the vast amount of immigrants from eastern european or similar areas. Nor, do they bring up the fact that it is incredibly easier to immigrate from Ireland or Poland than El Salvador.

Ask yourself this question, if a major American city were to conduct business in a language other than English would you be aghast at the erosion of American Values? If that is the case, which is what the OP suggests, why aren't people clamoring to have Chicago (3rd largest metro area in the US, largest not on a coast) stop using *polish* as alanguage for official business?

[Lysander]

Again, I am of the mind that there is no racial motivation on the immigration topic. However, it's like one of those things where the function conveniently aligns with the form, and you can't seem to shake it either way.

BUT, then again... If we were all truly racist,why would Barack Hussein Obama, a black muslim, be tied in the Democratic polls in Iowa and about 8 % behind Hillary nationally? Then again, we're talking about conservatives and thus mainly the Republican party, whose candidates are all patently White.

I don't know. I listen to a lot of Bill O' Reilly and Rush Limbaugh and thinking back on some of the comments they have made now, there may be some weight to the whole racism/immigration theory. Although, I genuinely believe I'm not a racist at heart, my actions (political stance/voting) could very well in fact be racist. Can you be sub-consciously racist?

[Daniel]

Well for one. He's a christian. Any reason you assume he's not?

[Latrinsorm]

I believe that social cohesion is the best way to improve the lives of Americans, it keeps wages afloat, diminshes crime,keeps government spending in check and overall brings social harmony.Immigration doesn't necessarily prevent or even diminish social cohesion. America has never had one society, nor should it.

Now bigotry, bigotry does a great job of diminishing social cohesion.
I can't completely eliminate the prospect that it is really about race.Intellectual skepticism is a helpful and healthy character trait: when it becomes paranoia this is no longer the case.
No one's talking about building a fence on the Canadian border, and I guarantee you any Canadian who wanted to could easily jump our border.No one's talking about building a fence on the coast of Oregon: nobody's coming in there. Saying that people could is like saying Iran could invade Israel.
You don't see alot of talk about the vast amount of immigrants from eastern european or similar areas.I'll say you can't find a source that demonstrates that we have more immigrants from (all of) Europe than Mexico yearly these days.

[Daniel]

I'll say you can't find a source that demonstrates that we have more immigrants from (all of) Europe than Mexico yearly these days.

^

Remind me where I said there were more?

My point was that there is hardly the same sort of outcry.

[Hulkein]

Are people really comparing the amount of immigrants from other places as opposed to from Mexico? That's laughable. And I'm not even a hardliner on immigration, I don't care much if they want to pick fruit for low wages.

[Latrinsorm]

Perhaps there is hardly the same outcry because there is hardly the same amount. I'd certainly agree that a million people makes for a vast crowd, but compared to 10 million?

[Hulkein]

The fact that laws aren't tailored to stop white illegal immigrants also does not necessarily prove that people want to keep the country white. It seems to me that if people don't notice a problem (ie: the six guys walking by you being illegal white immigrants) there isn't going to be the same drive behind legislating it.

Not much consolation for the Mexican who is getting hauled out of here while the Polock doesn't, but I don't think immigration laws are as racially motivated as people may want to argue. They may have that effect, though.

[Parkbandit]

The question is, do conservatives have a bent toward keeping America White or at least keep Whites in the majority. The reason I ask is recently, my GF, who is half Hispanic, had some close friends whose parents were whisked away without warning by the INS back to Colombia. Now I'm beginning to question my own views and especially why

Personally I'm a fiscal conservative and I have some socially conservative views, including keeping the borders on lock down. I would even go as far as to say to eliminate ALL immigration and not just the illegal ones. I believe that social cohesion is the best way to improve the lives of Americans, it keeps wages afloat, diminshes crime,keeps government spending in check and overall brings social harmony. It's a win for America.

However, recently, I've been having thoughts about how much of all this is perhaps racially motivated, at least for me. I've been thinking about the time I first met my girlfriend,who you would definetly not think as Hispanic unless she goes into her Spanish tirades. (she has blue eyes blonde hair and has paler skin then me). Would I have even spoken to her if I didn't think she was White? How much of my views on immigration is based on race? Would I be as apprehensive about the issue if it were Europeans coming over the border?

I know this forum has some strong political views. So I was just curious, has anyone else thought about the issue in this way? Do you think I'm right or wrong about the issue? What do you think and do you think I should change my views?

Maybe your GF's parents should have done what millions of other immigrants did.. apply for legal entry into the country.

Don't blame the government because your GF's parents broke the law. That's like blaming the cop when you get a speeding ticket.. or blaming the cop when he catches you robbing a bank.

Self responsibility once again.

[Gordd]

Maybe your GF's parents should have done what millions of other immigrants did.. apply for legal entry into the country.

Don't blame the government because your GF's parents broke the law. That's like blaming the cop when you get a speeding ticket.. or blaming the cop when he catches you robbing a bank.

Self responsibility once again.

Technically, it wasn't his girlfriends parents, but rather a friend of his girlfriend. Small point of contention that doesn't really change the rest of your statement.

[Daniel]

The fact that laws aren't tailored to stop white illegal immigrants also does not necessarily prove that people want to keep the country white. It seems to me that if people don't notice a problem (ie: the six guys walking by you being illegal white immigrants) there isn't going to be the same drive behind legislating it.

Not much consolation for the Mexican who is getting hauled out of here while the Polock doesn't, but I don't think immigration laws are as racially motivated as people may want to argue. They may have that effect, though.

I'd suggest you attend a meeting of the minutemen then.

[radamanthys]

The issue is really the entitlement system. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't a "come over here, the rest of the country will pay for your degenerate ass to have kids!" type of system.

If people were forced to pay their own way (as they did, back in the day, when european immigration was the big thing), I think many of the arguments on both sides would disintigrate.

[Lysander]

Maybe your GF's parents should have done what millions of other immigrants did.. apply for legal entry into the country.

Don't blame the government because your GF's parents broke the law. That's like blaming the cop when you get a speeding ticket.. or blaming the cop when he catches you robbing a bank.

Self responsibility once again.

Thats the thing, if they applied for entry from say Canada, it would have been far far easier to get accepted. Now a days, it's exceptionally difficult to near impossible to get legal entry from Mexico or any other Meso/South American nation. I'm staunchly opposed to immigration in general, but I'm a pretty fair minded person and like to think of myself as not racist. But with the current immigration structure, it's kinda hard not to believe I am. It's an itch thats been bothering me in the back of my mind.

[Parkbandit]

Thats the thing, if they applied for entry from say Canada, it would have been far far easier to get accepted. Now a days, it's exceptionally difficult to near impossible to get legal entry from Mexico or any other Meso/South American nation. I'm staunchly opposed to immigration in general, but I'm a pretty fair minded person and like to think of myself as not racist. But with the current immigration structure, it's kinda hard not to believe I am. It's an itch thats been bothering me in the back of my mind.

LOL.... you are staunchly against immigration and consider yourself not a racist.. but anyone who doesn't favor illegal immigration, you have no problem labeling them as a racist? Holy fucking double standards Batman!

Is it because Bush hates all Mexicans.. or could it possibly be that the US has a certain max amount of individuals per country they allow in? If Canada has 300,000 people that want to get in out of 200,000 applicant slots and Mexico has 2,000,000 out of 200,000 applicant slots.. I imagine it would be tougher, mathematically, to get in from Mexico than Canada. I doubt this has anything to do with Bush supporters hating Mexicans and loving those pasty white Canadians.

And Dear ES, these numbers were placed here to make a point and should not be considered hard limit numbers imposed upon the countries mentioned by the US Government. These numbers were fabricated by the poster to state a point, not to give exact information regarding the US policy of Immigration. Thank you.

[Lysander]

I think I see your point. But, I guess in the end it doesn't really matter. In this world after all the nonesense is cleared off the table there really is only the "will to power" or the "struggle". If you lie, cheat, steal, out think, out manuever etc. your opponent and still stand in the end you are still the victor and deservingly you keep what you kill. If illegal (or legal even) immigrants keep flooding the borders and we don't do anything about it then they justly deserve to stay because we aren't defending ourselves. Likewise, if you let someone take all your stuff and you sit there and do nothing, then you just don't want it bad enough. This at least is my philosophy on all this.

I guess, in the end there are many strategies to survive.

[Jazuela]

On the original topic..

I don't care what color they are, what country they're from, what neighborhood they live in. As long as they speak English well enough to be understood by most people in the state they're in (giving room here for regional dialects of USA English). As long as they are TRYING to work legally, if they're capable of work. As long as they are TRYING not to be a burden on anyone else, if they are capable of not being a burden. And as long as they are TRYING to help support their own family if their own family needs it, instead of letting the rest of us support them.

Oh yeah - and as long as they pull their pants up. Black, white, hispanic...I don't care who you are, if you wear those ghetto droopy drawers and a do-rag, you are basically BEGGING people to call you names and kick you out of their grocery stores. You want to feel welcome in society, it's your responsibility to TRY to fit in. There's a bodega in a nearby town with a sign on the front door telling customers to pull up their pants if they want service. So it isn't just that white people expect everyone else to act like white people. Has nothing to do with acting or living like a white guy. It has to do with self-respect, wanting to present the "best" you that you can when you walk out your front door, and earning rather than demanding respect from others. Calling your buddies "nigga" loudly on the street might make your buddies happy, but it won't inspire the other two dozen people walking by to invite you to tea. Or hire you if you happened to be on your way into their office while they were bringing lunch back. Or babysit your daughter, or even get into the elevator with you.

So it isn't about wanting to keep the country white. It's wanting to return a bit of civility to EVERYONE. Including those loudmouthed obnoxious WHITE cell-phone users who insist on having a conversation at full volume with their 2-way pal in the restaurant while you're TRYING to enjoy a nice quiet lunch in a corner on the OTHER side of the dining room.

[Parkbandit]

On the original topic..

I don't care what color they are, what country they're from, what neighborhood they live in. As long as they speak English well enough to be understood by most people in the state they're in (giving room here for regional dialects of USA English). As long as they are TRYING to work legally, if they're capable of work. As long as they are TRYING not to be a burden on anyone else, if they are capable of not being a burden. And as long as they are TRYING to help support their own family if their own family needs it, instead of letting the rest of us support them.

Oh yeah - and as long as they pull their pants up. Black, white, hispanic...I don't care who you are, if you wear those ghetto droopy drawers and a do-rag, you are basically BEGGING people to call you names and kick you out of their grocery stores. You want to feel welcome in society, it's your responsibility to TRY to fit in. There's a bodega in a nearby town with a sign on the front door telling customers to pull up their pants if they want service. So it isn't just that white people expect everyone else to act like white people. Has nothing to do with acting or living like a white guy. It has to do with self-respect, wanting to present the "best" you that you can when you walk out your front door, and earning rather than demanding respect from others. Calling your buddies "nigga" loudly on the street might make your buddies happy, but it won't inspire the other two dozen people walking by to invite you to tea. Or hire you if you happened to be on your way into their office while they were bringing lunch back. Or babysit your daughter, or even get into the elevator with you.

So it isn't about wanting to keep the country white. It's wanting to return a bit of civility to EVERYONE. Including those loudmouthed obnoxious WHITE cell-phone users who insist on having a conversation at full volume with their 2-way pal in the restaurant while you're TRYING to enjoy a nice quiet lunch in a corner on the OTHER side of the dining room.

I thought you wanted to get back on the original topic.. which was illegal immigration.. not to splinter off to another thread titled : People I don't like and wish they would get kicked out of the country.

[Jazuela]

Sorry, I thought the original question was the first thing in the first post:

The question is, do conservatives have a bent toward keeping America White or at least keep Whites in the majority.

I'm conservative, and I'm white. As a conservative white person, I answered that no, I don't care about keeping Whites in the majority or keeping the country White. I care more about everyone behaving more civilly, and making an attempt to contribute to the society in which they have chosen to live (or were born in). If that means immigrants come past our borders, fine. I'm all for it. As long as they contribute to society and not leech from it, learn the language, not abuse cell phones, and keep their pants up.

That was my answer. Sorry you missed it.

[Celephais]

As long as they contribute to society and not leech from it, learn the language, not abuse cell phones, and keep their pants up.

That was my answer. Sorry you missed it.
It was the off-topic tirade (and the irony that it came after "On the original topic...") that he was commenting on, the tirade that had nothing to do with illegal immigrants, the cell phones and baggy pants is far more likely to be a non-illegal immigrant.

[TheEschaton]

Celephais, I've been meaning to ask, how do you get the random C&H strips in your sig?!?

[Celephais]

Celephais, I've been meaning to ask, how do you get the random C&H strips in your sig?!?
I've got all the C&H on my server, so I just wrote a quick program (HTTP Handler) that randomly picks a non-sunday to send when a request for the image is made (it also resizes it because some of my source images are too big for a signature... and the occasional sunday strip has a mislabeled date and they're huge).

It's kind of like those signatures that are a stupid looking troll holding up a sign telling you your IP in french that some idiots have, the image is composited every time it's requested.

[ElanthianSiren]

Economically, it makes very little sense to say that whites want to keep america white. Either that, or we've been lied to over the years about how many of our precious jobs illegals take.

What you're referring to IMO isn't really black, white, yellow, green, blue, or purple. It's us vs. "them" whoever they may be, as Jaz pointed out in her post.

Calvin and Hobbes is awesome.

[Hulkein]

I'd suggest you attend a meeting of the minutemen then.

That's a pretty small percentage of conservatives.

[Daniel]

On the original topic..

I don't care what color they are, what country they're from, what neighborhood they live in. As long as they speak English well enough to be understood by most people in the state they're in (giving room here for regional dialects of USA English). As long as they are TRYING to work legally, if they're capable of work. As long as they are TRYING not to be a burden on anyone else, if they are capable of not being a burden. And as long as they are TRYING to help support their own family if their own family needs it, instead of letting the rest of us support them.

Oh yeah - and as long as they pull their pants up. Black, white, hispanic...I don't care who you are, if you wear those ghetto droopy drawers and a do-rag, you are basically BEGGING people to call you names and kick you out of their grocery stores. You want to feel welcome in society, it's your responsibility to TRY to fit in. There's a bodega in a nearby town with a sign on the front door telling customers to pull up their pants if they want service. So it isn't just that white people expect everyone else to act like white people. Has nothing to do with acting or living like a white guy. It has to do with self-respect, wanting to present the "best" you that you can when you walk out your front door, and earning rather than demanding respect from others. Calling your buddies "nigga" loudly on the street might make your buddies happy, but it won't inspire the other two dozen people walking by to invite you to tea. Or hire you if you happened to be on your way into their office while they were bringing lunch back. Or babysit your daughter, or even get into the elevator with you.

So it isn't about wanting to keep the country white. It's wanting to return a bit of civility to EVERYONE. Including those loudmouthed obnoxious WHITE cell-phone users who insist on having a conversation at full volume with their 2-way pal in the restaurant while you're TRYING to enjoy a nice quiet lunch in a corner on the OTHER side of the dining room.



Lol. That's funny, I swear baggie jeans, use my "regional dialect of english" that includes the "n word" and I was still able to get a job. A pretty good job too.

Imagine that.

[Daniel]

That's a pretty small percentage of conservatives.

That are supported by how many more, in principle if not deed? I wasn't trying to say all conservatives want to keep this country white. I was saying that there are some that dude, and they are pretty vocal about it.

Even aside from the minutemen, I've been to some town council meetings with my grandma outside of Chicago and you'd be shocked at how overt some people are about keeping the "integrity of their neighborhoods". Yet, they never really seemed to care when it was joe, billy and bob but Hammad, Chin and Enrique is a fucking problem.

P.s. there is probably still some typos. I'm still half drunk from last night. Winter vacation ftw.

[Sean of the Thread]

That are supported by how many more, in principle if not deed? I wasn't trying to say all conservatives want to keep this country white. I was saying that there are some that dude, and they are pretty vocal about it.

Even aside from the minutemen, I've been to some town council meetings with my grandma outside of Chicago and you'd be shocked at how overt some people are about keeping the "integrity of their neighborhoods". Yet, they never really seemed to care when it was joe, billy and bob but Hammad, Chin and Enrique is a fucking problem.

P.s. there is probably still some typos. I'm still half drunk from last night. Winter vacation ftw.

I think it boils down to some people are just fucking retarded idiots.

If dumbfuck idiot was a race I'd become a racist overnight.

[Celephais]

I swear baggie jeans


I was saying that there are some that dude, and they are pretty vocal about it.

P.s. there is probably still some typos. I'm still half drunk from last night. Winter vacation ftw.

Those typos are hilarious.

[Daniel]

Because you don't drink?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Burger Queen
I'm conservative, and I'm white. As a conservative white person, I answered that no, I don't care about keeping Whites in the majority or keeping the country White. I care more about everyone behaving more civilly, and making an attempt to contribute to the society in which they have chosen to live (or were born in). If that means immigrants come past our borders, fine. I'm all for it. As long as they contribute to society and not leech from it, learn the language, not abuse cell phones, and keep their pants up.

I find it hilarious that baggy pants and cell phone use carry equal value as leeching off society and failing to integrate.

[Hulkein]

I abuse cell phones by touching them where they pee.

[Katt]

I came from practically an all white school from a little rinky dink town and all the guys had pants down to their knees. Girls and Guys pretty much all abused cell phones and made their parents pay out the ass.

[TheEschaton]

You want to feel welcome in society, it's your responsibility to TRY to fit in.

Assimilate or be terminated!

Seriously, what the bloody fuck is wrong with you?

[Hulkein]

What she said is true, whether or not it's the 'right' thing or not. If you want to feel welcome somewhere you should try to fit in. If you're a woman trying to fit in at some Middle Eastern place it'd be wise to not wear high boots with a high skirt and a tube top.

[TheEschaton]

the question isn't the veracity of whether "to fit in = need to assimilate" in our current day society, but why, in a country which is supposed to be so tolerant and, indeed, embracing of diversity, would you say everyone should speak the same language and try and fit in?

[thefarmer]

Eh. I think language is a different issue and probably the only thing that everyone should 'try and fit in' and only in the sense of being able to speak/read at least an understandable form of English. At least enough to sign a legal document and maybe order at a take-out restaurant.

We shouldn't expect textbook perfect, but enough to be understood.

As far as how you wear your clothes, or use your cellphone, who gives a fuck?

[Daniel]

White people.

[Lysander]

If this was Europe or Mesopotamia or India ...yes I can agree with fitting in. These are regions with thousands of years of culture and human heritage. In fact, for one of these regions, if you were to go back far enough in all likelihood one of our ancestors on this very diverse board probably met and did some trading in a bazaar or whatever.

This is the U.S. ...come on? Culture, what culture? Heritage? Our pittance 200 years where we slaughtered a bunch of Indians and took their land, like a couple of hoodlums tipping over a 7 eleven holding our Colt 45's sideways. No, "fitting in" is relative in the U.S. ALL of us are guests almost NONE of us are here by birthright.

I guess the only "fitting in" would be building Teepee's and wearing Eagle feathers... or opening up a Casino and charging an arm and a leg for parking.

[Sean of the Thread]

Dumb

[Celephais]

Because you don't drink?
I drink quite frequently, I've got my share of "I post of the" posts, that doesn't mean I don't find those typos funny, mostly because they're not misspelled words, they're just the wrong words. I'm all for people posting drunk, it's just good entertainment.

[Hulkein]

the question isn't the veracity of whether "to fit in = need to assimilate" in our current day society, but why, in a country which is supposed to be so tolerant and, indeed, embracing of diversity, would you say everyone should speak the same language and try and fit in?

Because if you want to feel welcome in a community you should try to embrace the customs of said community. It's not a difficult concept Mr. Rogers.

Your question is more 'why is this so?' and that's not relevant to what Jazuela said.

[Hulkein]

If this was Europe or Mesopotamia or India ...yes I can agree with fitting in. These are regions with thousands of years of culture and human heritage. In fact, for one of these regions, if you were to go back far enough in all likelihood one of our ancestors on this very diverse board probably met and did some trading in a bazaar or whatever.

This is the U.S. ...come on? Culture, what culture? Heritage? Our pittance 200 years where we slaughtered a bunch of Indians and took their land, like a couple of hoodlums tipping over a 7 eleven holding our Colt 45's sideways. No, "fitting in" is relative in the U.S. ALL of us are guests almost NONE of us are here by birthright.

I guess the only "fitting in" would be building Teepee's and wearing Eagle feathers... or opening up a Casino and charging an arm and a leg for parking.

You don't need to be in a certain place for thousands of years to have community customs. Plus most cities in America (or sections of cities) derive a lot of their customs/culture from wherever most of the immigrants came from.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hulkein
Because if you want to feel welcome in a community you should try to embrace the customs of said community. It's not a difficult concept Mr. Rogers.

I wear baggy clothes during my recreational time because it's more comfortable. Just like I wear certain styles because I find them more appealing. When I goto work I wear the appropriate attire regardless of my personal feelings towards it. If my recreational gear isn't to Jazulea's liking when I goto BK and she wants to judge me for it because it doesn't fit into her classic suburban mindset I'd say she needs to get over herself.

I can understand the issue with people not wanting to learn the language because it's hard to create a sense of community when people are unable to communicate with one another but I disassociate personal style. Saying I don't like you in my community because of your clothing isn't any different than prejudging based on hair style, tattoos, piercings, etc. Things change from generation to generation what might have been the fad in 1950 or whenever she was a teenager are certainly different now.

[Hulkein]

I'm not defending people judging it, but it is how it is. If you want to feel welcome in a community then try to fit in with the community status quo.

[Sean]

Isn't the community just as bad as the individuals you're referring to if they remain static and unwilling to adapt?

[Katt]

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ Hehe, Edmund Burke.

[CrystalTears]

I'm not defending people judging it, but it is how it is. If you want to feel welcome in a community then try to fit in with the community status quo.
I'm sorry but what you wear and how you behave with a cell phone is not indicative of whether you fit into a community. If a community is so dependant on you fitting into their mold of acceptable, then that's not the community for you. However communities should adapt and learn to tolerate differences in people, not fit them into self-created molds of what's acceptable.

One thing is asking people to learn to speak a common language. Another is telling them how to dress and behave. The Borg we are not.

[Gan]

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/rich-tehrani/uploads/borg.jpg

Resistance is futile.

[Hulkein]

I'm sorry but what you wear and how you behave with a cell phone is not indicative of whether you fit into a community.

I have no idea what she was talking about regarding the cell phone.

Clothing is indicative of how you fit into a community, though. This doesn't just go for whites. Walk around North Philly in something a normal resident of the gayborhood would wear. See how well you are accepted.


If a community is so dependant on you fitting into their mold of acceptable, then that's not the community for you.

No shit.


However communities should adapt and learn to tolerate differences in people, not fit them into self-created molds of what's acceptable.

I never said otherwise.

[Daniel]

I drink quite frequently, I've got my share of "I post of the" posts, that doesn't mean I don't find those typos funny, mostly because they're not misspelled words, they're just the wrong words. I'm all for people posting drunk, it's just good entertainment.

word

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hulkein
Clothing is indicative of how you fit into a community, though. This doesn't just go for whites. Walk around North Philly in something a normal resident of the gayborhood would wear. See how well you are accepted.

So the solution is just to say hey thats just how it is and accept the status quo? You're right however that it's not just a problem from predominately white communities.

[Jazuela]

The cell phone thing is just something I've observed ever since people started using them regularly. People cut themselves off from the communities they're in, with these things. You see it everywhere you go, *especially* if you don't own one. It's like these people all turn into zombies, completely myopic and unaware of everyone and everything else around them. They don't notice the little kid running across the street, they don't notice their sister in the seat next to them in the car, they don't notice the shopping cart they're about to smash into in the supermarket. They don't notice that 20 people in a 1000-square-foot dining room are ALL staring at them because their voice is so loud the other patrons don't really have a choice -but- to listen to their half of the conversation.

The world outside their right ear ceases to exist. It's sickening, and saddening, that people don't talk TO each other very much anymore, and rely instead on talking through machines to voices of people they wouldn't pay attention to if they were standing in front of them. Because, they'd be too busy talking to another voice through a machine to notice that other person is there.

I feel it is one of the things that disconnects us from our own humanity - and as a result, it removes us from the community in which we claim to live.

[CrystalTears]

Which still has nothing to do with immigration.

The cell phone thing is a WORLD WIDE epidemic and all types of people do it. I honestly don't see what that has to do with fitting into a community. I mean I understand not liking it, but you're really going to shun someone for using it like a zombie?

I think you need to start flipping burgers and staying away from customers.

[thefarmer]

The cell phone thing is just something I've observed ever since people started using them regularly. People cut themselves off from the communities they're in, with these things. You see it everywhere you go, *especially* if you don't own one. It's like these people all turn into zombies, completely myopic and unaware of everyone and everything else around them. They don't notice the little kid running across the street, they don't notice their sister in the seat next to them in the car, they don't notice the shopping cart they're about to smash into in the supermarket. They don't notice that 20 people in a 1000-square-foot dining room are ALL staring at them because their voice is so loud the other patrons don't really have a choice -but- to listen to their half of the conversation.

The world outside their right ear ceases to exist. It's sickening, and saddening, that people don't talk TO each other very much anymore, and rely instead on talking through machines to voices of people they wouldn't pay attention to if they were standing in front of them. Because, they'd be too busy talking to another voice through a machine to notice that other person is there.

I feel it is one of the things that disconnects us from our own humanity - and as a result, it removes us from the community in which we claim to live.

So why are you spending time posting on an internet message board? And (presumably) playing GS?

Neither of those things brings a greater 'connection' to the community in which you live.

[Hulkein]

So the solution is just to say hey thats just how it is and accept the status quo? You're right however that it's not just a problem from predominately white communities.

I'm not pretending to offer solutions. I was just defending the fact that what she said does hold true.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hulkein
I'm not pretending to offer solutions. I was just defending the fact that what she said does hold true.

...if you're a intolerant/bigoted.

[Tsa`ah]

Thats the thing, if they applied for entry from say Canada, it would have been far far easier to get accepted.

Simply due to the costs associated with immigration. While we're all up in arms over immigration reform and illegal immigration ... why don't you just wander over to the Canadian immigration page and compare that to the US page ... yet no one is breathing down Canada's back.

The plain and simple truth is that INS is overwhelmed and backlogged. They have been for some time and it doesn't help that people just bypass the system ... thus increasing the workload.


Now a days, it's exceptionally difficult to near impossible to get legal entry from Mexico or any other Meso/South American nation. I'm staunchly opposed to immigration in general, but I'm a pretty fair minded person and like to think of myself as not racist. But with the current immigration structure, it's kinda hard not to believe I am. It's an itch thats been bothering me in the back of my mind.

And here's the problem ... Those countries have poor records to begin with. It's not a white vs any other ethnicity problem ... it's a bureaucracy problem. A guy from an Eastern block nation applies for immigration and gets it because he, and everyone associated with the process from the consulate to the nation he's immigrating from has some form of cooperation and responds to inquiries made by the consulate. He gets in.

The guy from Mexico hits road block after road block because why? Not because his skin is brown, but because the nation he's attempting to immigrate from is inept ... and at times ... so is he. That and the fact that 2 out of every 7 people he knows just decided to screw the whole system and jump the fence anyway ... didn't make it any easier for him.

If you're here illegally and get caught, and then get deported ... I have no sympathy. Not only just because you were here illegally ... but because while you were here illegally you were breaking a number of other laws and screwing over the legal residents that pay taxes.

[Latrinsorm]

Yet, they never really seemed to care when it was joe, billy and bob but Hammad, Chin and Enrique is a fucking problem.Because if anyone has a long history of living and getting along together, it's the Irish and the Italians.

[Kembal]

Simply due to the costs associated with immigration. While we're all up in arms over immigration reform and illegal immigration ... why don't you just wander over to the Canadian immigration page and compare that to the US page ... yet no one is breathing down Canada's back.

The plain and simple truth is that INS is overwhelmed and backlogged. They have been for some time and it doesn't help that people just bypass the system ... thus increasing the workload.

The backlog is part of it. (seeing that with my fiancee's visa right now. it's taken more than 2 months for them to issue a fucking notice that they received my application for her permanent visa/green card, and it's still not here yet. After I get that, I then have to file for her non-permanent visa, which takes 4 months to process. And then finally she gets to come over, assuming some jackass at the consulate in Mumbai doesn't arbitrarily deny the visa because he's having a bad day. In the meantime, her green card will take another 6 to 8 months to process, easy. It's actually easier for H1B visa holders to bring their spouse from overseas over than it is for a U.S. citizen.)

The second part is that the quota for every country is pretty much the same, which shafts Mexico, India, China, and a few others. It's fairly stupid, and doesn't recognize the sources of labor into the U.S. A better system would leverage that.


If you're here illegally and get caught, and then get deported ... I have no sympathy. Not only just because you were here illegally ... but because while you were here illegally you were breaking a number of other laws and screwing over the legal residents that pay taxes.

Generally, illegal immigrants are paying taxes if their employers are not aware they are illegal, because they withhold the income tax from the paychecks. And even if the employer is somewhat aware, unless it's an agricultural or construction job of some sort, the employers are probably still making the income tax withholdings anyway in order to make it look like they're not aware.

I'm not certain where this myth popped up that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. In the large majority of cases, they do. What they don't do is actually file income tax returns.

[Sean of the Thread]

I see you're making up the facts again.

The vast majority of illegals are paid under the table.

[Tsa`ah]

The backlog is part of it.

Part ... meaning huge part coupled with an inept system across the border.


The second part is that the quota for every country is pretty much the same, which shafts Mexico, India, China, and a few others. It's fairly stupid, and doesn't recognize the sources of labor into the U.S. A better system would leverage that.

I'll say this is bullshit simply due the amount of border jumpers.


Generally, illegal immigrants are paying taxes if their employers are not aware they are illegal, because they withhold the income tax from the paychecks. And even if the employer is somewhat aware, unless it's an agricultural or construction job of some sort, the employers are probably still making the income tax withholdings anyway in order to make it look like they're not aware.

I'm not certain where this myth popped up that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. In the large majority of cases, they do. What they don't do is actually file income tax returns.

The problem is that they pay taxes because of IDENTITY THEFT.

[Kembal]

I see you're making up the facts again.

The vast majority of illegals are paid under the table.

Right. From reason.org, which is a free-market think tank:

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml


The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.


But, immigrants aren't flocking to the United States to mooch off the government. According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.


What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.

Would you like to stop talking out of your ass now, and admit you have no idea what you're talking about?

[Kembal]

Part ... meaning huge part coupled with an inept system across the border.

I'll say this is bullshit simply due the amount of border jumpers.

I fail to see what the amount of border jumpers has anything to do with the fact that there are per-country quotas for immigration. In fact, it kind of points out that the per-country quota system is stupid in having the exact same quota number for every country.



The problem is that they pay taxes because of IDENTITY THEFT.

My point had nothing to do with law-breaking. (though obviously, if you can provide a legal way for them to migrate, most of the law-breaking that people get up in arms about wouldn't need to take place) It was that it's ridiculous to argue that illegal immigrants are a drain on society because they don't pay taxes and cost a lot in services. It's nowhere close to true.

[Tsa`ah]

I fail to see what the amount of border jumpers has anything to do with the fact that there are per-country quotas for immigration. In fact, it kind of points out that the per-country quota system is stupid in having the exact same quota number for every country.

Umm ... maybe you should think about this a little bit more.

When we have in excess of 20 million illegals in this country and most of them are from south of the border .... wouldn't you say that the quota has been exceeded?

20 mill is a hefty amount of people that could have possibly worked to influence social and economic change in their respective nations ... but they gave up. Not that I can really blame them, but they bypassed the system and in turn have made it easier for those that traffic in drugs, illegal labor ... and a rash of other nasty shit that we already have enough of.



My point had nothing to do with law-breaking. (though obviously, if you can provide a legal way for them to migrate, most of the law-breaking that people get up in arms about wouldn't need to take place) It was that it's ridiculous to argue that illegal immigrants are a drain on society because they don't pay taxes and cost a lot in services. It's nowhere close to true.

It's reality .. you just choose to ignore the facts.

Here's what you're missing (as was pointed out 8 months ago in another thread and I'm going from memory ... but feel free to search it out and read the sources).

In 2002 illegals paid 16 billion in taxes (identity theft) and used 26 billion in federal services ... that's a 10 billion dollar deficit. I believe the estimate per illegal household was between 2,500 and 3,000.

While illegals pose a federal cost less than half of what legal residents rack up, they pay 1/4 of the taxes (still see identity theft and education/skill level).

And this is just on the federal level.

These cost soar astronomically when you include state levels.

If the legal working poor are paying, on average, 10,000 a year and receiving just over 30k in state and federal benefits and illegals, on average, are paying (through theft of identity) 2,500 annually yet still rack up the same social services tab ... that's one hell of a tax burden.

Let's not even get into the costs (not covered by taxes) tax paying illegals impose on private citizens. It is rampant in this neck of the woods once the migrants move on. In the fall, local victims get their utilities shut off because the illegals wracked up hefty bills in their name. On average, about 200-300 illegals purchase new vehicles within a four county radius ... and stop making payments in their victim's name when they move on. If they're unable to get state provided health care, they use the local ERs under a stolen identity.

The local impact is about 10-13% of the total illegal population during the migrant season. That means 87-90% of them (that are paying taxes via identity theft) are using identities of people out of state.

Now how much do you think this sort of activity will cost each and every victim of identity theft perpetrated by an illegal paying taxes? And all of this is just defrauding the everyone but the government.

What impact do you think this will have on the victims come tax season when their returns are denied because the IRS shows multiple incomes and the victim in deficit?

I think you need to take a step back and look at not as a person who knows and cares about a few illegals that have been deported and realize the personal havoc they have created in the lives of the legal citizens they took the identity of.

[Jazuela]

This:
In 2002 illegals paid 16 billion in taxes (identity theft) and used 26 billion in federal services ... that's a 10 billion dollar deficit. I believe the estimate per illegal household was between 2,500 and 3,000.

Got me wondering, how much did legal citizens collecting welfare contribute in taxes, and how much did they use of federal services?

If it ends up being more than what illegals contributed, should we stop worrying so much about illegals, and start focusing more about what's going on with our own legal citizens?

Personally I think the whole immigration problem is out of hand, but I have no solutions. It's like the whole cockroach problem in cities. You can't roach-proof an entire neighborhood. By the time you spray-bomb the building at the end of the block, the roaches have moved back in to the building at the beginning of the block. Other than blowing up all the buildings in the area, it's just too late to get rid of them. They're here to stay, like it or not, and they -will- get their friends and relatives in. We can kick a few illegals out to show that we're "doing something" about the problem, but it won't make a bit of difference. They'll just come back; maybe to a different city, or a different neighborhood in the same city they were kicked out of.

And yes, I realize I just compared illegals with cockroaches. Just remember - when the nukes come, only the cockroaches will survive. Maybe it'll be just the roaches and the illegals. There's a lovely thought.

[Sean of the Thread]

Right. From reason.org, which is a free-market think tank:

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml







Would you like to stop talking out of your ass now, and admit you have no idea what you're talking about?

Man you're naive.

[Tsa`ah]

Got me wondering, how much did legal citizens collecting welfare contribute in taxes, and how much did they use of federal services?

If it ends up being more than what illegals contributed, should we stop worrying so much about illegals, and start focusing more about what's going on with our own legal citizens?

Ok ... crash course in comprehension for you. If illegals are contributing 1/4 of the taxes the working poor are. Meaning contributing with someone else's SS# while refusing the employer's ability to deduct certain taxes from the paycheck ... meaning they're not paying state and federal taxes but still contributing to SS and medicaid. While doing this, they still produce the same tax burden through social services rendered ... they just contribute 75% less in another person's name.

Yes, we need better checks on the systems in place to cut down and eliminate fraudulent use of these services, but not everyone using these services are defrauding them. Hell, there are people who may actually need some help getting on their feet, yet under current standards they "earn too much".

At $32,000 per illegal household (tax burden) with minimal tax revenue, imagine the havoc it's causing not only in healthcare, but in education. Wider national health care coverage wouldn't be such a big deal. Closing the social disparity in education wouldn't be such a big deal.


Personally I think the whole immigration problem is out of hand, but I have no solutions. It's like the whole cockroach problem in cities. You can't roach-proof an entire neighborhood. By the time you spray-bomb the building at the end of the block, the roaches have moved back in to the building at the beginning of the block. Other than blowing up all the buildings in the area, it's just too late to get rid of them. They're here to stay, like it or not, and they -will- get their friends and relatives in. We can kick a few illegals out to show that we're "doing something" about the problem, but it won't make a bit of difference. They'll just come back; maybe to a different city, or a different neighborhood in the same city they were kicked out of.

This is when you back out of NAFTA for those who refuse to regulate their borders. This is also when you drop the funds we send to those countries for the express purpose of watching their own borders.

There's no way we'll be able to afford, let alone find, over 20 million illegals AND deport them. What we can do is hold those that employ them accountable. We can also initiate programs for those in the country to become citizens so long as they're willing to pay, over time, the taxes they owe and for damages they caused legal tax paying citizens through fraud. We can also start deporting any illegal that breaks the law or is just caught. As it stands right now, unless they kill someone ... we let them go.


And yes, I realize I just compared illegals with cockroaches. Just remember - when the nukes come, only the cockroaches will survive. Maybe it'll be just the roaches and the illegals. There's a lovely thought.

I don't really want to touch this considering the source ... but it's not like you're contributing any more tax revenue working in fast food at your age. If you're happy doing it ... so be it. Just realize you're placing yourself on the poverty precipice by choice. I'd hate for you to make these statements and then burn your hand off on a freak fry accident and then have to be a welfare recipient.

[thefarmer]

She'd just sue McD's and blame them for having the fry oil too hot..

[Jazuela]

On the first thing you quoted and answered Tsa'ah, I don't see where you answered the question, following your snide remark about comprehension. Perhaps you didn't comprehend my question, hm?

I asked about *legal* citizens who collect welfare benefits, and how much they contribute financially to the tax coffers.

I asked because I wanted to know if citizens who are -entitled- to all of this, are taking more than non-citizens who are -not- entitled to all this, then maybe we are putting the focus of our concerns on the wrong things.

As for my working, it's irrelevent, Tsa'ah. I've personally contributed to the tax coffers since I was 16 years old, and overpaid for many years because I didn't know that full time students under the age of 25 were tax exempt. I have had taxes taken out of my investments since I was born (yes, I've had investments since I was born). Between dividend taxes, property taxes, income taxes, special taxes, inheritence taxes, luxury taxes, I've probably -paid- more on average than the poverty rate. Oh and fry accidents are covered by worker's comp, not by anyone's income taxes. Not that it matters, I haven't worked for BK since August.

[daisey]

White Americans, what?

Nothing better to do?

Why don't you kick yourself out

You're an immigrant too?

[Gan]

Ok ... crash course in comprehension for you. If illegals are contributing 1/4 of the taxes the working poor are. Meaning contributing with someone else's SS# while refusing the employer's ability to deduct certain taxes from the paycheck ... meaning they're not paying state and federal taxes but still contributing to SS and medicaid. While doing this, they still produce the same tax burden through social services rendered ... they just contribute 75% less in another person's name.

Yes, we need better checks on the systems in place to cut down and eliminate fraudulent use of these services, but not everyone using these services are defrauding them. Hell, there are people who may actually need some help getting on their feet, yet under current standards they "earn too much".

At $32,000 per illegal household (tax burden) with minimal tax revenue, imagine the havoc it's causing not only in healthcare, but in education. Wider national health care coverage wouldn't be such a big deal. Closing the social disparity in education wouldn't be such a big deal.



This is when you back out of NAFTA for those who refuse to regulate their borders. This is also when you drop the funds we send to those countries for the express purpose of watching their own borders.

There's no way we'll be able to afford, let alone find, over 20 million illegals AND deport them. What we can do is hold those that employ them accountable. We can also initiate programs for those in the country to become citizens so long as they're willing to pay, over time, the taxes they owe and for damages they caused legal tax paying citizens through fraud. We can also start deporting any illegal that breaks the law or is just caught. As it stands right now, unless they kill someone ... we let them go.



I don't really want to touch this considering the source ... but it's not like you're contributing any more tax revenue working in fast food at your age. If you're happy doing it ... so be it. Just realize you're placing yourself on the poverty precipice by choice. I'd hate for you to make these statements and then burn your hand off on a freak fry accident and then have to be a welfare recipient.

I cant find anything in this post to disagree with. Good post, good points.

[Bobmuhthol]

I love when Jazuela posts in social topics. Best part of my day.

[thefarmer]

Wait.. since when have working students under 25 tax exempt?

Is it new? Based on income? Both?

I used to pay a shitload in taxes back then.

[CrystalTears]

Students have to pay taxes on their income if they earn more than about $5k a year. They're exempt from paying FICA though as long as they take at least 6 credits per semester and don't work more than 20 hours a week.

[thefarmer]

Ah. Well, then. It wouldn't have applied to me.

[Daniel]

Also, anything you pay for education is tax deductible. Which is good news if you pay 30k in tuition a year.

[Alfster]

Not that it matters, I haven't worked for BK since August.

Sorry to hear you got fired.

[Sean of the Thread]

Loose clothing isn't the issue. And this a hot topic really as of late considering some law suits floating around.

It's the pants hanging down to just above the knees showing the entire boxers shit stains and all. Doesn't matter which race.. if a business doesn't want that sort of attire in their establishment tough fucking shit.

But these certain individuals are suing under racism. This shit is getting out of control.

[Tsa`ah]

On the first thing you quoted and answered Tsa'ah, I don't see where you answered the question, following your snide remark about comprehension. Perhaps you didn't comprehend my question, hm?

Maybe you should read.


While illegals pose a federal cost less than half of what legal residents rack up, they pay 1/4 of the taxes (still see identity theft and education/skill level).

The problem with getting an accurate percentage is due to current acts of fraud, both from legals and illegals. With illegals thrown into the mix it makes it down right impossible to determine with any reliable margin of error.


I asked about *legal* citizens who collect welfare benefits, and how much they contribute financially to the tax coffers.

Again, this was posted. 10k for legal citizens, 2,500 for illegals. See paying 1/4 of what legal citizens pay.


I asked because I wanted to know if citizens who are -entitled- to all of this, are taking more than non-citizens who are -not- entitled to all this, then maybe we are putting the focus of our concerns on the wrong things.

I don't think of welfare as an entitlement program. Though that's what it has essentially evolved into. But that's not the conversation we're on.

The issue with illegals partaking in these benefits is not only that they're taking advantage of them at 1/4 of the tax cost, but by doing so they pull the focus away from other domestic issues that really need some focus. Healthcare and education. Let's not even get into the fact that they're breeding an entire generation that has the potential to become career welfare recipients without ever paying a dime in taxes. That's not to say that every child born to an illegal family from south of the border will become welfare cases, but the socioeconomic disparity is already in place ... so this up and coming generation is already at a disadvantage.

While we're forced to deal with 20 million plus illegals, we're forced to spread tax dollars even thinner. This bleeds into education. Imagine if this next generation, who are citizens, has a total population of say ... 35 million. Let's say 10 million actually graduate HS and want to go on to college. That's 10 million PEL grants, federal loans and anything else you want to associate tax dollars with .... going to an entire generation of children born of parents who have maybe paid social security and medicaid taxes in another person's name. Then comes the crunch. All of the other kids of college age, who's parents have paid taxes will have either one of two choices ... reduced or no educational benefits.

We can't focus on more important issues when we have so many illegals in this country that those important issues will become impossible to manage after 10-15 years of tax disparity.


As for my working, it's irrelevent, Tsa'ah. I've personally contributed to the tax coffers since I was 16 years old, and overpaid for many years because I didn't know that full time students under the age of 25 were tax exempt. I have had taxes taken out of my investments since I was born (yes, I've had investments since I was born). Between dividend taxes, property taxes, income taxes, special taxes, inheritence taxes, luxury taxes, I've probably -paid- more on average than the poverty rate. Oh and fry accidents are covered by worker's comp, not by anyone's income taxes. Not that it matters, I haven't worked for BK since August.

Your working is highly relevant to the conversation when you have pointed out in the past that you work at a job that historically pays minimum wage or not much better.

That your ass was pampered from birth, well ... not as relevant. Paying taxes on crap you never earned ... goes with the territory I guess. At what age you started paying taxes is also irrelevant, unless your parents were ignorant enough to let you file for a return. I've been getting paychecks with tax deductions since the age of 14. My parents weren't dumb enough to let me file and lose their own deduction simply because it wouldn't add up.

[Gan]

CALEXICO, Calif. (AP) - Children are more likely to shield their faces than to smile when Daniel Santillan points his camera.


Santillan's photos aren't for any picture album or yearbook—they help prove that Mexican youngsters are illegally attending public schools in this California border community.

With too many students and too few classrooms, Calexico school officials took the unusual step of hiring someone to photograph children and document the offenders. Santillan snaps pictures at the city's downtown border crossing and shares the images with school principals, who use them as evidence to kick out those living in Mexico.

Since he started the job two years ago, the number of students in the Calexico school system has fallen 5 percent, from 9,600 to 9,100, while the city's population grew about 3 percent.

"The community asked us to do this, and we responded," school board President Enrique Alvarado said. "Once it starts to affect you personally, when your daughter gets bumped to another school, then our residents start complaining."

Every day along the 1,952-mile border, children from Mexico cross into the United States and attend public schools. No one keeps statistics on how many.

Citizenship isn't the issue for school officials; district residency is.
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled illegal immigrants have a right to an education, so schools don't ask about immigration status. But citizens and illegal immigrants alike can't falsely claim residency in a school district.
Enforcement of residency requirements varies widely along the border.

Some schools do little to verify where children live beyond checking leases or utility bills, while others dispatch officials to homes when suspicions are raised.

Jesus Gandara, superintendent of the Sweetwater district, with 44,000 students along San Diego's border with Mexico, said tracking children at the border goes too far. "If you do that, you're playing immigration agent," he said.

The El Paso Independent School District in Texas sends employees to homes when suspicions are raised. But spokesman Luis Villalobos said photographing students at the border would be a monumental, unproductive effort.

That's not the thinking in Calexico, a city 120 miles east of San Diego that has seen its population double to 38,000 since 1990. A steel fence along the border separates Calexico from Mexicali, an industrial city of about 750,000 that sends shoppers and farm laborers to California.

Calexico's rapid growth outstripped school resources, resulting in overcrowding and prompting demands that Mexican interlopers be ousted. Taxpayers complained their children were bused across town because neighborhood schools were full, even after Calexico voters approved a $30 million construction measure in 2004. Portable classrooms proliferated.

The 62-year-old Santillan (pronounced sahn-tee-YAHN) was hired in He is an unlikely enforcer. Posters of Cesar Chavez and Che Guevara adorn the walls of his ranch-style home. The Vietnam War veteran and labor activist is an outspoken advocate of amnesty for illegal immigrants and fills water jugs in the desert for Mexicans who trek across the border illegally.

He parks his old Toyota Echo at the border two or three mornings a week, often in a handicapped spot that his bad knees allow him to occupy. He photographs some of the hundreds of students who exit the inspection building and walk to class.

Some hide their faces when they see his 6-foot-5, 310-pound frame. Sometimes he follows students to school.

Many of the students know him. Others in town are not always sure what he is up to. A new police officer once ran his name through a database of sex offenders. A talk-radio host warned listeners that an odd- looking man at the border might be looking for children to kidnap.

Some students taunt him. Friends have called him a hypocrite. Santillan reminds them that he is only enforcing school residency rules, not immigration laws. Still, he says, "You've got to have hell of a tough skin."
The California native also visits addresses listed on student enrollment forms, knocking on doors as late as 9 p.m. and introducing himself in Spanish.

One crisp December morning, he went to three homes before dawn, carrying a clipboard with several pages of students suspected of living in Mexico. A woman who opened her door at 6:30 a.m. said her niece no longer lives with her. At another home, a woman said her niece moved last month.

Many Calexico residents support the crackdown.

Fernando Torres, a former mayor, was upset when the district said his grandchildren would have to transfer because there was no room in their neighborhood school. "It's not right" for U.S. taxpayers to build classrooms for Mexican residents, he said. The district eventually relented.

School board member Eduardo Rivera estimates there are still 250 to 400 students from Mexico attending Calexico's schools.

"It's a continual struggle," Rivera said. "You have people who are determined to continue sending their kids over here."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8TSKC1G0&show_article=1

[Jazuela]

Right Tsa'ah. And in the past I have also owned my own business and had to file the usual schedule C. And in the past I have also worked for the (currently) AT&T Human Resources Department. And in the past I have also been the marketing secretary for one of the biggest dairies in the state. What *I* have done for a living is irrelevent. It has nothing to do with the topic, and the only reason you brought it up was to take a potshot and enjoy watching several others take potshots at me, which they usually do when they have nothing intelligent to contribute to the conversation.

[Lysander]

Well, after attending a recent party function I think I've firmly made up my mind.

There are three kinds of conservatives. The fiscal/business end,the social end, and the in between conservatives. In terms of race, most conservatives are a bit "racist" or more "racialist".However, I think we have some right to be. I'm sorry but we (white Americans) worked hard and built this country and I think we deserve our albeit larger share of the pie. And I still agree for the most part that immigrants of any nation or background should be drastically reduced.

YES, it is because I want to protect what I earned and keep it that way for my kids, call it building up the walls...But hey, once you've taken the castle, wouldn't you foritfy the walls to make it stronger to protect yourself from outsiders? I shouldn't have to apologize for that.

But some conservatives get really annoying (even I can't stand them) about some subjects which their facts are erroneous and these people I think are hurting the conservative cause. One "conservative" spoke to me about how immigrants are "massacring" our kids. I think this was because of the shootings earlier last year. Then I replied, "Yeah, well be safe returning any Christmas presents, you know those Malls can get deadly." He looked at me for a second confused then his face turned sour, and started screaming "Why are you on their side etc. etc." "I killed those ***** in nam" "You ******* idiot, don't you see whats happening?! etc.".... I just responded please you're making yourself look like a fool.

However, then our Republican party rep stood up and discussed immigrant crime based on statistics from the US Justice Department. He demonstrated that employee crime was higher amongst immigrants and that armed robberies and other violent crimes were higher in immigrant concentrated areas all the way from LA to NY. He was coherent, spoke eloquently, and was dressed professionally in a suit and tie. I said to myself, "Hey,I can relate to this fella."

Then there are those in the middle that are a diverse group of people ranging from fiscally minded peoples, to church goers, to young high schoolers who were interested in conservatism. These people are our salvation, I believe, of the Republican party and America as a whole. They see the bright road ahead for our nation and want to help to get us there. And in order to attract more of them we need to tone the rhetoric so we make sense most of the time and not get into extremely controversial topics at least early on, they are buying our words and we can't have our words spiked so that noone wants to touch it.

And to put it bluntly, I am a racialist. I favor my own above others. Yes, I said "racialist" because it doesn't have the caustic and seething conotation that the word racist has, thanks mainstream media. BUT WAIT, guess what?

Many of you here (even those of you that consider yourself liberal) are also racialist. I've heard everything from "Blacks eating watermelons" to "certain ethnic groups not being able to pronounce words etc." coming from conservative AND liberal minded people alike (search the politics/social folder). Sorry folks, this is a two way road, and almost every white person is on it. Next time you walk down Harlem or South Central LA with a couple of young black men following you, try not to hold onto your purse tighter or walk a little bit faster or pretend that you need to get something from the convenient store you happen to walk by.

I just think it's time to take off the gloves and call things the way it is. I think it'll be refreshing and at the sametime harmonize our society as a whole. Thats what conservatism is really about.

[Parkbandit]

Hey.. before you go putting a white hood on all conservatives.. please don't project your biggotry on all of us.

Contrary to what Daniel thinks, I'm far from a racist and think you are an idiot for trying to portray an entire party in that manner.

Once again.. for the slow ones out there.. just because some of us believe in self responsibility and tighter borders doesn't equate to us thinking one race is inferior to another.

[Lysander]

Hey, did I say anything about inferiority or superiority? In fact, I said the approach from a racist prospective is fundamentally wrong and gave an example to that fact.

Racialism is not being racist but acknowledging that race is an integral part of the decision making process albeit political or otherwise. That makes us all racialist (unless you don't believe races exist) and not racist (which holds that you believe a person should be treated negatively or positively based on his or her race.)

The understanding of society's reality (about race or otherwise) and to rise above this ugly topic so that all peoples in this nation can progress through hard work and determination is what makes conservatism great. It is the treat of conversatism.

Thanks, and I hope every person regardless of race or religious or ethnic background can reconcile with this fact.

[Daniel]

, I think we have some right to be. I'm sorry but we (white Americans) worked hard and built this country and I think we deserve our albeit larger share of the pie. \



Excuse me?

[thefarmer]

Wow. You need a history lesson.

[Lysander]

Excuse me?

As with Americans who are already here. This was in accordance with the topic at hand.

[Daniel]

As with Americans who are already here. This was in accordance with the topic at hand.

I mean, I'd bother telling you how "white" America didn't build this country by itself, but I don't think it would matter.

[thefarmer]

And I still agree for the most part that immigrants of any nation or background should be drastically reduced.

You realize.. that this would include everyone except native americans?

[Bobmuhthol]

That would be true if the United States was run by Native Americans. There was no country until Europeans made one.

[thefarmer]

That would be true if the United States was run by Native Americans. There was no country until Europeans made one.

.. by coming from another country. Which should make them immigrants, yes?

[Lysander]

On the contrary, I would say African Americans single-handedly jumped started the industrial revolution in this country from 1800 on. In fact, the reason we fought the Civil War was not because of slavery (directly) but because the South was so dependent (and getting rich) on free Slave labour input that it was economically not beneficial for them to industrialize. Thus, if you notice most of Southern Virginia/W. Virginia, Carolina's, Alabama, Georgia etc. are poorer today relative to the New England/New York/West Coast areas.

I would even say resoundedly YES African-American Blacks should recieve monetary compensation for their slave labors of their ancestors. You want to know why our per capita income is greater then England and Europe (nations that started the Industrial Revolution), it's because these huge FREE labour inputs gave the U.S. excess capital to invest in heavy industries like Steel and invest in cutting edge technologies creating companies like DuPont. And by WWII we were out producing tanks and airplanes by some cases 50 to 1 relative to Germany,Japan, and even England COMBINED.

*However, when giving any monetary compensation to Blacks I would have to look into all the social programs that have been used by Blacks up to this time to develop a fair pay out.

[thefarmer]

How does your (Lysander) last post jibe with:


I think we have some right to be. I'm sorry but we (white Americans) worked hard and built this country and I think we deserve our albeit larger share of the pie

?

Maybe it's just me and I'm sleep deprived.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<.. by coming from another country. Which should make them immigrants, yes?>>

You have to go to another country to be an immigrant. Leaving a country to make your own country where there previously was none makes you the founder of a country.

[thefarmer]

im·mi·grant /ˈɪmɪgrənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-i-gruhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
2. an organism found in a new habitat.
–adjective
3. of or pertaining to immigrants and immigration: a department for immigrant affairs.
4. immigrating.

-from Dictionary.com

You choose option 1.

I see option 2 as more fitting in this case.

[Bobmuhthol]

Okay, but that's a science term, and the political term (which is the one under discussion) does not apply.

[thefarmer]

How would that make a difference?

[Bobmuhthol]

Are you serious?

[crb]

On the contrary, I would say African Americans single-handedly jumped started the industrial revolution in this country from 1800 on. In fact, the reason we fought the Civil War was not because of slavery (directly) but because the South was so dependent (and getting rich) on free Slave labour input that it was economically not beneficial for them to industrialize. Thus, if you notice most of Southern Virginia/W. Virginia, Carolina's, Alabama, Georgia etc. are poorer today relative to the New England/New York/West Coast areas.

I would even say resoundedly YES African-American Blacks should recieve monetary compensation for their slave labors of their ancestors. You want to know why our per capita income is greater then England and Europe (nations that started the Industrial Revolution), it's because these huge FREE labour inputs gave the U.S. excess capital to invest in heavy industries like Steel and invest in cutting edge technologies creating companies like DuPont. And by WWII we were out producing tanks and airplanes by some cases 50 to 1 relative to Germany,Japan, and even England COMBINED.

*However, when giving any monetary compensation to Blacks I would have to look into all the social programs that have been used by Blacks up to this time to develop a fair pay out.
Why not stop there? If I got jewish blood you think I should go take a little cruise around the med. Stop first in Egypt, ask for cash, you know, back pay for building the pyramids, go to Rome, tell those modern Romans that when Rome ruled the jews it really wasn't fair and I'd like some payback for that.

Of course... the Romans enslaved practically everyone, so anyone with any gaul, anglo, or saxon ancestors, lets all see how many wheels of parmigiano reggiano we can cajole out of them.

Honestly.

Reparations only make sense if you're having the actual entity that did the harm pay money to an actual person that was harmed. Assuming all african americans were had ancestral slaves back in the day and giving them cash funded by taxes on everyone with lighter skin (hundreds of millions of whom are decended from people who never owned a slave, both because the majority of pale faces didn't own slaves, and because many of them didn't even come to this country until AFTER slavery was stopped), is just retarded with a capital "Dur dur dur."

See if you can find a download of Penn & Teller's Bullshit Reparations episode.

Besides, even with all that, why would you hope to accomplish with such a stupid gesture? Do you think a one time check is going to cure a culture of violence and poverty? Sure's helping down in New Orleans isn't it? Actually maybe checks would have been better in New Orleans. The gov. has spent so much money on shit down there that if they instead had just written checks every single person affected by the hurricanes would have gotten a check for $400k. So, a family of 4 would have gotten 1.6 million. Instead, look at what they've accomplished... hmm government spending ftl.

[crb]

There's no way we'll be able to afford, let alone find, over 20 million illegals AND deport them. What we can do is hold those that employ them accountable. We can also initiate programs for those in the country to become citizens so long as they're willing to pay, over time, the taxes they owe and for damages they caused legal tax paying citizens through fraud. We can also start deporting any illegal that breaks the law or is just caught. As it stands right now, unless they kill someone ... we let them go.

I agree. I'm a fiscal conservative, and I fully supported Bush's "amnesty" plan, and McCain supported it too, which is who I plan to vote for (him or Rudy, if someone else wins the primary I'm going to be a sad Panda).

The fact is, it is completely impractical to root out, process, detain, and deport 10-20 million people. You can't do it, don't try you're just going to fail and waste time and resources.

Also, it is equally foolish to think you can just take away all employment for 10-20 million people, as you seem to, and think that they are just going to vanish. They still need to eat, they still need to take care of their family, it may encourage less people to come here, but for those already here, all it will do is lead them to a life of crime. We don't need that either.

In the end, we need to bite the bullet, make the people already here legal (path to citizenship, like Bush proposed), and put the biggest fence in the world along the border to stop any more (and any drugs, bombs, etc etc) from coming in.

The people are already here, the cat is out of the bag, the bell has been rung, you can stop more people from coming, but you need to do something practical with those already here. Something practical, not idealistic.

Also, I think a lot of people do not realize that immigration is good. China is likely going to pass the US as the world's biggest economy, for one reason only, size of population. After China it will be India, etc, etc. If we don't want to continually fall down the rankings (and those rankings are meaningful, they are directly related to things like defense spending, advanced research, etc. We don't want China to take the lead in those areas), then we need more people to help keep up. So unless all the white yuppies out there start having more babies, we need immigrants.

This is the golden time of the US, we're #1, and lots of people want to live here, we're the land of opportunity. We should take this opportunity to make sure all the best people from other countries can come here if they want. Just like how WWII sent so many scientists to our country as a safe haven. (again, like Bush's proposed point system for determining if you can come or not). Because we might not always be #1, and like a bear fattening up before winter, we might as well make sure we get the most benefit out of our position now.

Of course, this isn't 100% relevant to the topic of mexican immigrants since you need to make sure people who come in are productive, but it does grind my gears when I see some idiot talk about shutting down all immigration is some sort of protectionist bullshit manuever. Not realizing that that is just the sort of thing that will speed us down the global ladder.

[Valthissa]

The fact is, it is completely impractical to root out, process, detain, and deport 10-20 million people. You can't do it, don't try you're just going to fail and waste time and resources.

Also, it is equally foolish to think you can just take away all employment for 10-20 million people, as you seem to, and think that they are just going to vanish. They still need to eat, they still need to take care of their family, it may encourage less people to come here, but for those already here, all it will do is lead them to a life of crime. We don't need that either.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22387801/

You can find more articles like this, as well as articles on the decline in enrollment in public schools in some border states.

I remembered reading that self deportation was on the rise - and this just in the face of talking about building a fence and stepping up enforcement. Your 'life of crime' scenario is a strawman.

I absolutely agree that legal immigration makes America stronger, more innovative, and is an overall benefit to our society. We should encourage the best people of other countries to come and stay here.

As to the original proposition, it is certain that some people oppose immigration based on their misguided desire to keep America 'more white', whatever they think that means.

C/Valth

[Lysander]

Why not stop there? If I got jewish blood you think I should go take a little cruise around the med. Stop first in Egypt, ask for cash, you know, back pay for building the pyramids, go to Rome, tell those modern Romans that when Rome ruled the jews it really wasn't fair and I'd like some payback for that.

Of course... the Romans enslaved practically everyone, so anyone with any gaul, anglo, or saxon ancestors, lets all see how many wheels of parmigiano reggiano we can cajole out of them.

Honestly.

Reparations only make sense if you're having the actual entity that did the harm pay money to an actual person that was harmed. Assuming all african americans were had ancestral slaves back in the day and giving them cash funded by taxes on everyone with lighter skin (hundreds of millions of whom are decended from people who never owned a slave, both because the majority of pale faces didn't own slaves, and because many of them didn't even come to this country until AFTER slavery was stopped), is just retarded with a capital "Dur dur dur."

See if you can find a download of Penn & Teller's Bullshit Reparations episode.

Besides, even with all that, why would you hope to accomplish with such a stupid gesture? Do you think a one time check is going to cure a culture of violence and poverty? Sure's helping down in New Orleans isn't it? Actually maybe checks would have been better in New Orleans. The gov. has spent so much money on shit down there that if they instead had just written checks every single person affected by the hurricanes would have gotten a check for $400k. So, a family of 4 would have gotten 1.6 million. Instead, look at what they've accomplished... hmm government spending ftl.

This initiates a dangerous precedent. So then one day, a bunch of invaders from some other country comes to the U.S. enslaves all of us and then use us to build their massive super energy generators based on the moon. We demand reperations but we get whipped down until we just lose all hope. A hundred years pass and legislation is in place that makes US slaves illegal. But we can't claim any reperations because it's pass the "statute of limitations". Meanwhile, our children are destitute since they just came out of slavery while the invader's children are living it up with the money made from the super energy generators.

I may be a little rough around the edges maybe even a little racist but I call an ace a ace and a spade a spade. Again, with all the social payments that the descendents of blacks have used have probably made up much of the bill, but the Industrial Revolution is the single most important human event in the history of our species, and they played a critical part in it.

Although, on second thought, if they ever did get the money it'll probably be used on booze, drugs or gambling. But you have to give credit where credit is due.

[Drunken Durfin]

That would be true if the United States was run by Native Americans. There was no country until Europeans made one.

"Do you have a flag?"
"We don't need a bloody flag, this is our country, you bastard!"
"No flag, no country! You can't have one! That's the rules, that... I've just made up."

~ Izzard

[Sean of the Thread]

Every person that brings up native americans is a complete fucking idiot. /end

[Daniel]

Why not stop there? If I got jewish blood you think I should go take a little cruise around the med. Stop first in Egypt, ask for cash, you know, back pay for building the pyramids, go to Rome, tell those modern Romans that when Rome ruled the jews it really wasn't fair and I'd like some payback for that.

Of course... the Romans enslaved practically everyone, so anyone with any gaul, anglo, or saxon ancestors, lets all see how many wheels of parmigiano reggiano we can cajole out of them.

Honestly.

Reparations only make sense if you're having the actual entity that did the harm pay money to an actual person that was harmed. Assuming all african americans were had ancestral slaves back in the day and giving them cash funded by taxes on everyone with lighter skin (hundreds of millions of whom are decended from people who never owned a slave, both because the majority of pale faces didn't own slaves, and because many of them didn't even come to this country until AFTER slavery was stopped), is just retarded with a capital "Dur dur dur."

See if you can find a download of Penn & Teller's Bullshit Reparations episode.

Besides, even with all that, why would you hope to accomplish with such a stupid gesture? Do you think a one time check is going to cure a culture of violence and poverty? Sure's helping down in New Orleans isn't it? Actually maybe checks would have been better in New Orleans. The gov. has spent so much money on shit down there that if they instead had just written checks every single person affected by the hurricanes would have gotten a check for $400k. So, a family of 4 would have gotten 1.6 million. Instead, look at what they've accomplished... hmm government spending ftl.



Actually, I don't believe in reparations. I was merely pointing out the idiocy of claiming that white America has a justifiable reason to feel the way that lysander thinks they do.

[Latrinsorm]

if they ever did get the money it'll probably be used on booze, drugs or gambling.How in the world do you think you're a racist?????

[Gan]

This thread has taken a sharp left turn to idiotsville. :(

[Asha]

Shame. I was enjoying it.
The political threads make for good coffee break reading.

[Tsa`ah]

Well, after attending a recent party function I think I've firmly made up my mind.

There are three kinds of conservatives. The fiscal/business end,the social end, and the in between conservatives. In terms of race, most conservatives are a bit "racist" or more "racialist".However, I think we have some right to be. I'm sorry but we (white Americans) worked hard and built this country and I think we deserve our albeit larger share of the pie. And I still agree for the most part that immigrants of any nation or background should be drastically reduced.

So you believe you're entitled to a bigger share of the pie because of the efforts of white people long dead?

I'm sorry. Even though I believe everyone in this nation have the right to basic education, healthcare, food, clothing, and shelter ... no one is entitled to anything they don't earn ... or in some cases inherit.

You can choose to label this "racialist" ... but it's racism no matter how you spin it. One term is just self delusion.


YES, it is because I want to protect what I earned and keep it that way for my kids, call it building up the walls...But hey, once you've taken the castle, wouldn't you foritfy the walls to make it stronger to protect yourself from outsiders? I shouldn't have to apologize for that.

You didn't take the castle ... let alone build it.


And to put it bluntly, I am a racialist. I favor my own above others. Yes, I said "racialist" because it doesn't have the caustic and seething conotation that the word racist has, thanks mainstream media. BUT WAIT, guess what?

Crap, dung, manure, fecal matter, feces, poop, caca ... all the same word for shit.


Many of you here (even those of you that consider yourself liberal) are also racialist. I've heard everything from "Blacks eating watermelons" to "certain ethnic groups not being able to pronounce words etc." coming from conservative AND liberal minded people alike (search the politics/social folder). Sorry folks, this is a two way road, and almost every white person is on it. Next time you walk down Harlem or South Central LA with a couple of young black men following you, try not to hold onto your purse tighter or walk a little bit faster or pretend that you need to get something from the convenient store you happen to walk by.

Eh, I hope your personal transference makes you feel better ... but more often than not, people are commenting on a stereotypical social set. A specific type of person rather than an entire race of people. Say I were to make a comment about a thug straight out of the hood ... it doesn't mean I'm making a comment about an entire race. More often than not I crack on suburban white kids pissed off or confused about their ethnicity. Seems to me that's a pretty specific comment. It's just sad that you read comments like that and assume (because of your racist views) that the poster is disparaging an entire race.

Am I going to be more attentive of my pockets and life on the L when a black couple steps on? No more than when a white couple steps on. I'll be more attentive when 4 or more people dressed like thugs steps on .... no matter what frickin color they are. There are stereotypes and there are those that fit the stereotypes ... and then there are the everyday people who have to fight the stereotypes because of people like you.


I just think it's time to take off the gloves and call things the way it is. I think it'll be refreshing and at the sametime harmonize our society as a whole. Thats what conservatism is really about.

I think you need to read the definition of conservatism.

[Warriorbird]

Comedy gold.

[Sean of the Thread]

Lol. So very sad.