From Coase

[Fallen]

Well, I've been around long enough to know better than to promise to release anything that I don't already have completed. ;) That being said, I am considering several other substantive warrior improvement ideas for implementation.

Coase

----

Nuff said.

[Anebriated]

Hmm, intriguing, wonder whats on the table for us now.

[Makkah]

Knowing Coase, we'll probably know very soon...

[Latrinsorm]

:heart:

[mgoddess]

Excellent.

[Anebriated]

Anyone think there could be a reason to continue training in armor coming up? Just speculating.

[Warriorbird]

I doubt it. I think the people whining for Warrior improvements are idiots though.

[Anebriated]

I dont read the officials so I dont know how bad the whining is. I dont think anything is wrong with the profession but it would be nice to get a warrior specific boost or new toy. Yeah the sheathmaking change isnt bad... if you can make sheaths.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I think warriors are seriously underwhelming. Nothing makes them scream unique or class defining. I'm sure any changes would be cool.

And personally, I think warrior redux is awesome. I always loved the idea of taking a licking and keep on ticking. But then I sold my plate :(

[Androidpk]

I doubt it. I think the people whining for Warrior improvements are idiots though.


I would love to know what whining you are talking about. The official warrior forums are pretty damn tame compared to other class forums.

[Anebriated]

yeah, I wouldnt mind seeing them put something in akin to the level 50 spells. Maybe give the class a generic ability at 50. Im gonna throw out the suggestion of temporary padding/weighting, but I know thats been said before. Figure level 50 spells means the caster has to get a lot of spells so maybe make the requirement 2x in armor at level 50, and 2x whatever weapon type to weight that type. Would be cool to get potions through alchemy that could add flares too.

[Fallen]

Warriors should be able to edge/weight weapons for damage weighting, and pad armor for damage padding. I would say HDW that degrades over time. In no way overbalancing, and would be nice because it would be common.

[Anebriated]

make it similar to ranger armor resistance. The system is already in place just needs to be tweaked.

[Fallen]

eh, Armor Resistance is in place to the very last blow it takes. You get full protection. I would see this as something that degrades over time.

[Anebriated]

lol use the breakage system...

on a more serious note thats a good point.

[Latrinsorm]

Anyone think there could be a reason to continue training in armor coming up?Yes. Propositions made on the official boards involved making lighter armor more appealing (that is to say, appealing at all) as well as some increases to heavy armor.
Nothing makes them scream unique or class defining.This is a fundamental issue we tried to address on the officials. Apparently some folks consider that "whining".

Item modification pushes warriors further into the artisan role. I would much rather have an ability that was a warrior's than a tailor's.

Several proposals were made on the officials. I'm confident that Coase can make something good out of them.

[thefarmer]

I'd like to see warriors able to 'pad' piece armor so that it can deflect a hit(a degrading, temp type of padding). Similiar to how you can block with a weapon/runestaff etc. The ability wouldn't be able to be combined with full coverage armor.

[Lysander]

If you want to make a change to warriors, nows the time, they are having some kind of vote for changes right now on the officials.

[Warriorbird]

The "A Call To Arms" thread on the officials was the whining. Myself, I think Warriors are stupendous...and Coase is one of the few GMs I trust to do quality stuff. Anything new is just icing on a cake.

[Donquix]

if by stupendous you mean generic and comparatively inefficient to every other class.

Viable? sure, but theres a reason theres less warriors at or near cap then basically any other class.

They have a lot of problems with spell defense, especially CS based, and offer next to nothing outside of fighting capabilities. While every other class, except possibly paladins, have some form of marketable skill, "oh wow" ability, or utility they bring to the table besides hunting prowess.

[Stunseed]

I'd give my left nut for a BESEECH, even though I hardly get stunned as a Ranger.

[Warriorbird]

I could care less about helping others. With a bit of tactics everything else is dealt with. The challenge is much more fun than playing an easy class.

[Donquix]

Then you're welcome to continue not using any new abilities given. Fact is, it's an incomplete class.

[thefarmer]

They have a lot of problems with spell defense, especially CS based, and offer next to nothing outside of fighting capabilities.

Isn't this the point of warriors? Being able to fight?

[Stanley Burrell]

I'd give my left nut for a BESEECH, even though I hardly get stunned as a Ranger.

Paladin BESEECH ftgreatjustice.

[crb]

Warriors should be able to edge/weight weapons for damage weighting, and pad armor for damage padding. I would say HDW that degrades over time. In no way overbalancing, and would be nice because it would be common.
Really? Wouldn't those abilities be more suited for the artisan system hmm?

Or is every warrior suddenly a craftsman?

[crb]

if by stupendous you mean generic and comparatively inefficient to every other class.

Viable? sure, but theres a reason theres less warriors at or near cap then basically any other class.

They have a lot of problems with spell defense, especially CS based, and offer next to nothing outside of fighting capabilities. While every other class, except possibly paladins, have some form of marketable skill, "oh wow" ability, or utility they bring to the table besides hunting prowess.
I'd say that the typical computer game player probably relates more to the clever & smart spell caster than the big and brawny warrior. You cannot judge on population alone.

For awhile warriors were the best hunters in the lands. People don't remember that, but you know the rift wasn't given a level 90 entrance requirement to keep the young pures out, it was to stop level 60 warriors from going in and raping the place. Also, with the way rift spell burst worked & plate CvAs, warriors actually had the third highest TD (yes, TD) of all rift hunters, right behind clerics & sorcerers. They were higher than wizards (rogues being also tied with warriors there if the rogue wore plate). Actually, magical rogues such as Blades who wore plate or any thicker armor ended up above sorcerers in TD as well, only behind clerics.

Dfredux was extremely powerful, coupled with plate & spells like a christmas tree, well, warriors were gods.

Such, an unspelled warrior sucked it big, but spells were very easy to come by, so long as you didn't mind relying on others.

The whole move to make many spells self cast in the change to GS4, as well as the introduction of more spell bursting hunting areas, were all a direct result of warrior uberness.

But look at all the things they've gotten. Who remembers before MSTRIKE existed? That was a huge change, a huge benefit, it made me want to be a warrior (of course, when first released there wasn't a cooldown). Then look at all the CMs, also all big improvements.

Then, of course, in every non-spell burst area in the game a warrior who bothers to get spells is still more or less the most defensive tank you'll find.

You want to see warrior suckage, look at a time before CMs, before dfredux. In contrast things are pretty good now.

Not saying they couldn't use any improvements, but giving them artisan abilities is not the way to go.

[Sthrockmorton]

Isn't this the point of warriors? Being able to fight?

That's exactly what I was thinking...

On another note:

I don't play a warrior, but something I thought would be a neat trick would be to string together multiple combat or guild manuevers at 50 trainings. Kind of like an mstrike. Two maneuvers at the same time, with a slightly larger RT or something.

Make it somewhat customizable with some limitations on what skills could be combined.

[Donquix]

Isn't this the point of warriors? Being able to fight?

ok.

clerics can only pray and rez now

empaths can only heal

wizards can just read books and enchant stuff

sorcerers can just play grab ass with demons all day

rangers can just play grab ass with their pets all day, possibly with trees as well

rogues can just pick pockets and locks

bards can just sing songs and get drunk

paladins and warriors will be the only classes allowed to fight.

Warriors are one of the most difficult classes to flesh out completely, since they do by definition have a much narrower scope than other classes. That doesn't mean it's ok to leave them as such.

There are lots of things you can do with warriors that give them utility beyond the killing power (that everyone else already has in addition to their utility abilities) and still seems warriorly.


I'd say that the typical computer game player probably relates more to the clever & smart spell caster than the big and brawny warrior. You cannot judge on population alone.

I'd say thats totally inaccurate and quite frankly just pulled out of your ass to further a point. I'm sorry someone suggested a positive change to a non-sorcerer class in your presence.

Warriors were never the best hunters..ever. They were one of the SAFEST hunters, when redux was broke as hell. But most other classes were overall better hunters, since they killed things much faster on average.

[Katt]

Warriors are fun to a point. When I capped mine i was like ok...what now. What is she useful for? Obviously swingers make shitty loot hunters or bounty point whores.... they are just too slow. When it comes to utility characters warriors suck the big one.

The only thing I miss is getting fully dispelled and still be able to stay out and fry while my pure friends had to go in. But that isn't really useful for anything just nice.

When I think of warriors I think they should be the strongest and swing the hardest but now those skinny little paladins swing harder. (no offense to you paladins)

Still though I think they are ok if you don't mind going slow. The sense of accomplishment at the end probably will never be topped for me.

[Makkah]

Warriors are fun to a point. When I capped mine i was like ok...what now.


Heh.. that's how it feels with any capped character.

[Daniel]

Really? Wouldn't those abilities be more suited for the artisan system hmm?

Or is every warrior suddenly a craftsman?

It's not a stretch to assume that a highly proficient warrior would know how to make their weapons\armor more effective.

[Katt]

Heh.. that's how it feels with any capped character.

Perhaps for some but I am big into the money hunting/bounty hunting etc.

Wizard- Spells and enchanting- helps get money.

Rogue- Pick for your other characters-helps save money

Healer- heal other characters-money/bounty hunter

Cleric- rez other characters-money/bounty hunter

Sorcerer- scrolls, can travel cross realms good for when you need things in landing real fast or etc.-money/bounty hunter

Paladin- sweet spells for empaths to steal.

Ranger- helps forage, make imbeds, spells and can be a great hunter.

Bard- Gem singing....enough said way worth it.


Warrior...... well... yes! Can asses padding and stuff! I've done that like twice! hehe.


I am not saying some of these things are valued for all nor am I saying Warriors should really be changed. I am just saying as someone who has tons of utility characters I never ever log my warrior in. There just isn't really a reason.

I mean she can't even really save people in the barrier with the constructs being whores and not letting people drag. It can be done but is a pain in the ass.

[Methais]

Rogue- Pick for your other characters-helps save money

Warriors - Bash for your other characters-helps save money

[Katt]

Warriors - Bash for your other characters-helps save money

Yeah and get blown up by traps hah! I suppose if you don't have a rogue perhaps.... but you can't say that a warrior is more useful opening boxes than a rogue.

[Anebriated]

How is rangers ability to give resistance to armor not considered an artisan skill? You could make the argument that any class would be able to do that with artisan training, thats now how it works though. Maybe leave weighting weapons to forgers, I could understand that, but a warrior gets by without spells(by definition) using their armor training to their benefit. This would give warriors a reason to train past full plate in armor(275 ranks for temp heavy padding on full plate or so) and give them a class defining ability.

[Latrinsorm]

The "A Call To Arms" thread on the officials was the whining. Myself, I think Warriors are stupendous...and Coase is one of the few GMs I trust to do quality stuff. Anything new is just icing on a cake.It is an error to attribute all desire for growth to whinginess.
It's not a stretch to assume that a highly proficient warrior would know how to make their weapons\armor more effective.I can already hear the particularly whiny rogues saying "BUT WE 2X IN EDGED AT THE SAME COST US TOO US TOO".

The fact remains that warriors should become more capable of warmaking. We have an Artisans Guild system that works pretty well. There's no need to turn warriors into the merchant marines of Elanthia.
How is rangers ability to give resistance to armor not considered an artisan skill?It is a magical process, not a mundane one.

There are much more Warriorly things to do with Armor Use overtraining than padding.

[crb]

Warriors were never the best hunters..ever. They were one of the SAFEST hunters, when redux was broke as hell. But most other classes were overall better hunters, since they killed things much faster on average.

For me, SAFE == BEST. Better to have a great defense and be slower at killing than be fast at killing and always end up dead. Your own opinion will vary.

[crb]

What about this? At huge cost let warriors triple in weapon types.

The CM combo idea is good too.

[thefarmer]

ok.

clerics can only pray and rez now

empaths can only heal

wizards can just read books and enchant stuff

sorcerers can just play grab ass with demons all day

rangers can just play grab ass with their pets all day, possibly with trees as well

rogues can just pick pockets and locks

bards can just sing songs and get drunk

paladins and warriors will be the only classes allowed to fight...

Great. Then warriors and paladins will finally have a use!


Warriors are one of the most difficult classes to flesh out completely, since they do by definition have a much narrower scope than other classes. That doesn't mean it's ok to leave them as such..

I never said "it's ok to leave them as such."


There are lots of things you can do with warriors that give them utility beyond the killing power (that everyone else already has in addition to their utility abilities) and still seems warriorly..

Give them all the utility you want, they're still a profession designed to have greater physical prowess in combat. Would you rather have better combat skills or more utility?


Warriors were never the best hunters..ever. They were one of the SAFEST hunters, when redux was broke as hell. But most other classes were overall better hunters, since they killed things much faster on average.

I disagree that most other classes were overall better hunters before the current state of Redux.

[Warriorbird]

I have no problem with non mechanically advantageous warrior enhancements or the dragging stuff.

Other stuff seems either illogical to be warrior only or to fit into the very Virilneus and sorceror idea of making our class invulnerable.

Warriors don't need personal hunting help.

I'd definitely support the dragging idea... or armor and shield crafting to be shared with paladins... but most of the people who make what I term complaint threads want hunting abilities or stuff that'd never ever be implemented like temporary padding...and if it was implemented would result in critter uptweaks.

I'm not against growth. I'm against stupid. Call it exposure to how staff thinks or just liking the class to not be as pathetically easy as something like sorcerors are.

[Latrinsorm]

Other stuff seems either illogical to be warrior only or to fit into the very Virilneus and sorceror idea of making our class invulnerable.No suggestion that I read (which admittedly was a day or so ago) made anything more than negligible increases to the defenses of a warrior that wore plate. Quite a few involved warriors dying and whatnot, which is kind of the exact opposite of invulnerability.
Warriors don't need personal hunting help.None of the suggestions I read mentioned "warriors are weak". Most of them entailed "warriors need PIZZAZ".

[Stanley Burrell]

How is rangers ability to give resistance to armor not considered an artisan skill?


It is a magical process, not a mundane one.

There are much more Warriorly things to do with Armor Use overtraining than padding.

Slightly unrelated, but why would an Artisan Skill have to be mechanical only as mundane? Wouldn't forging with magical metals and enchanted oils qualify as a magical endeavour? Wh'bout alchemy? That's pretty magical, converting lead into gold and what have you.

O.K.: Rangers have the basic knowledge of earth, wind, fire, water and heart imbued into their grey matter. Trueness. That shouldn't be fully replicated via the AG.

Anyone can invest in spell training. Couldn't that imply that a post-AG mining (lollerskates) Artisan expansion could muster the use of magic knowledge in its processes?

This r hypothetical tangent.

[crb]

I'd definitely support the dragging idea... or armor and shield crafting to be shared with paladins... but most of the people who make what I term complaint threads want hunting abilities or stuff that'd never ever be implemented like temporary padding...and if it was implemented would result in critter uptweaks.

Considering we have an artisan system, I think you're far more likely to get hunting abilities than crafting abilities.

Besides, being able to use something doesn't automatically mean you're able to make something.



Warriors don't need personal hunting help.

Interesting remark that.


IMO in the end you can look at things like level 50 spells in other professions and think about how cool those are and want something equivalently cool for squares but it doesn't quite work like that. Squares have the benefit of being the easiest professions in the lower levels, and yes, still being defensive tanks.

There are some things you can do with the profession, but the desire to add a complex system akin to enchant or any level 50 spell probably isn't going to happen.

[Latrinsorm]

but why would an Artisan Skill have to be mechanical only as mundane?Using magic created by someone else is not the same as using magic. It's a similar distinction between the guy using a computer to do mass spectroscopy and the guy who makes a computer.
Anyone can invest in spell training. Couldn't that imply that a post-AG mining (lollerskates) Artisan expansion could muster the use of magic knowledge in its processes?Given the way they handled Alchemy, I'd say no.
Squares have the benefit of being the easiest professions in the lower levels, and yes, still being defensive tanks.I'm not sure that holds quite the weight it used to. Let's say that squares are easier for the first 40 levels for sake of argument (so we don't have to quantify "easier" or "squares" or easier than whom): that's less than a quarter of the game! (23%)

As to being defensive tanks: this is absolutely true for AS vs. DS resolution. However, no pure is going to be killed by a 101 AS/DS endroll that wouldn't also kill a square (i.e. electrokaplosion). The same cannot be said for CS/TD rolls. Evarin would be quick to remind us that squares can obtain spells to improve their TD far easier than pures can obtain spells to improve their maneuver defense: to which I say pures can train in CM and dodge far easier than squares can train in spell research.

Even putting that aside, GemStone is not a game of defense. A warrior maxxed in all forms of defense will die every hunt if he is not proactive.

.

I am not of the opinion that warriors are weak or underpowered. I am similarly not of the opinion that clerics were weak or underpowered before 350: thus it is clear that warriors could stand a similar improvement (spectacular but not overwhelmingly useful) without tipping Yon Scales of Balance. Such proposals have been made on the officials: I am confident Coase will act appropriately.

[ElanthianSiren]

The whole move to make many spells self cast in the change to GS4, as well as the introduction of more spell bursting hunting areas, were all a direct result of warrior uberness.

But look at all the things they've gotten. Who remembers before MSTRIKE existed? That was a huge change, a huge benefit, it made me want to be a warrior (of course, when first released there wasn't a cooldown). Then look at all the CMs, also all big improvements.

Then, of course, in every non-spell burst area in the game a warrior who bothers to get spells is still more or less the most defensive tank you'll find.

You want to see warrior suckage, look at a time before CMs, before dfredux. In contrast things are pretty good now.

Eh.... You're probably talking early web with the stuff about redux etc. Go back an iteration to warriors on AOL and the other dial up systems. My warrior was a hiding ambusher, sword board, and I never missed any of that really (MSTRIKE, redux etc). In fact, I never had a problem with warriors until they made that system obsolete in IV, and mine probably hunted until level 30 without any spells. She also pre-dates the GS guilds, so this is a fun topic for me. She started wearing mass spells around 30ish then darkstone on the node was where people started noticing, holy crap this chick is wearing nothing but mass spells because of her craptastic TD -- good times.

I don't like the warrior CMANs that you have to repeatedly type. It's one of the reasons I don't play her anymore, and having to move through the guild was pretty much the nail in the coffin for her. Thing is, it wasn't the mechanics of the cmans or guilds that really killed warriors entirely for me, it was the implied RP that comes with them. There are more than a few warrior guild skills she never learned because they were TOO completely OOC for her (spitting for instance is something she absolutely would never do). That aside, I really enjoy my rogue, who is capped for her guild ranks right now and uses cmans occasionally in combat. It really is the ingrained GSIV style of the warrior that I take issue with (brute, little elegance to be had), and that only became a huge issue with cmans, so your argument most definitely holds no weight with me. Every cman could poof tomorrow, and I wouldn't mind it.

All that said, she's an old lady now, and she has everything she ever wanted in the world, so nobody can say "Oh poooor Kiera". I'm just waiting for monks with her.

[Warriorbird]

You're just personally bitter that you can't hide/ambush like you used to, ES... so I can't take your words with the weight I normally would.

I'm sorry, Latrin... we must be reading different boards. Temporary crit and damage padding...3xing weapons...a bunch of nonsense.

I dug the dragging thing. Most of the berserk suggestions would reduce the effectiveness of the completely bleeding awesome ability.

The CMAN list added more than enough pizzazz... you must just be using boring abilities.

My Surge/Coup combo is great... and gives my hunts an exciting pace.

I don't think Warriors have issues... I just think people want to see them as easy as professions like sorceror... which will only diminish the class. I know that CRB just wants his dwarven sorceror to do everything because he's bored... but I think something more artisan style could address some of the "usefulness" ideas without being unbalancing and unimplementable.

[Stanley Burrell]

You're just personally bitter that you can't hide/ambush like you used to, ES... so I can't take your words with the weight I normally would.

I'm sorry, Latrin... we must be reading different boards. Temporary crit and damage padding...3xing weapons...a bunch of nonsense.

I dug the dragging thing. Most of the berserk suggestions would reduce the effectiveness of the completely bleeding awesome ability.

The CMAN list added more than enough pizzazz... you must just be using boring abilities.

My Surge/Coup combo is great... and gives my hunts an exciting pace.

I don't think Warriors have issues... I just think people want to see them as easy as professions like sorceror... which will only diminish the class. I know that CRB just wants his dwarven sorceror to do everything because he's bored... but I think something more artisan style could address some of the "usefulness" ideas without being unbalancing and unimplementable.

Berserk is pretty shitty. Instantly berserking to throw off the stun just as instantly would work. 10 RT from snarling without it wearing off and THEN having those 2 extra seconds I should have been fleeing from a room turn into a failed weapon fire ward = not cool.

Having to wait for my rage to even work =! cool either. Like the left nut that Stunseed would donate, Paladin BESEECH is the shits. If I were going to fit warrior with a get-out-of-stun-free card, I'd at least make it BETTER than Paladin BESEECH due to the sheer capacity of a warrior being a warrior.

Most importantly, limiting what you and a select few others may perceive as a warrior's hunting prowess as being one guild skill at 63 ranks = the utter uncoolness personified.

It's really not a matter of ungodly empathic abilities so much as it is filling the bucket quicker and not having to play the fleeing game in casting critter grounds as much. SIMU has the potential of making their product fun by tying in redux to damage reduction from the environment and certain elements. They need to have warriors not run from three tiny mage-based critters who can swarm with pre-prepped CS spells. Being a warrior can be fun, but it shouldn't mean suicide if you want to level the battlefield.

I vouch if something almost as unimportant to training as temp padding armor/wtrick polish with a +2 varying crit factor becomes implemented, that it be reserved for plate and weapon-bonded cudgels only, similarly to the way a ranger can only "mysteriously" resist up to a certain AsG. Yay for economics. Fuck.

[ElanthianSiren]

Eh, I had a feeling you'd say that, so we'll have to agree to disagree really. She actually does still hide and ambush with good efficiency, enough to do OTF with it at least.

If I use cmans, I try to choose the passive ones that don't automatically assign a tone to my character. I honestly can't see my character charging into combat headbutting things. She's not sword and board anymore actually either. She's actually ranged. It works out pretty well, but like I implied, I didn't like being pidgeonholed into taking those moves by IV, so I'm waiting for monks, who will hopefully have a list of moves that fits her style better.


Kiera, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 5
Dirtkick dirtkick 5
Specialization III wspec3 5
Multi-Fire mfire 5
Coup de Grace coupdegrace 5
Parry Mastery pmastery 3

[ElanthianSiren]

Oh yeah, I always found parrying a flamberge with a wooden long bow pretty damn funny, but who am I to quibble?

I suppose it's time for my three year visit to the officials however.

BTW thanks Evarin for mentioning this. I never check the officials...ever.

[Latrinsorm]

There are more than a few warrior guild skills she never learned because they were TOO completely OOC for her (spitting for instance is something she absolutely would never do). I've been intermittently campaigning on the officials to get wtrick spit replaced by a warrior-only verb. So far (obviously) no good. :(
The CMAN list added more than enough pizzazz... you must just be using boring abilities.The list of warrior-only CMANs:
Bearhug, Berserk, Bmastery, Haymaker, Headbutt, MBlow, Pmastery, SBlow, Sunder, Tackle, Twinhamm, Bonding. Staggering Blow is the showiest one there, but it a) requires a prerequisite maneuver and b) isn't even possible to use with all styles. That your centerpiece is Coup is proof enough for my position: Coup is not warrior-only.

Another error you've made is to conflate "interesting to the user" and "noticeable to others". The desire is for other classes to go "whoa, warriors are neat". If you can honestly say that Surge of Strength generates that response as well as Planar Shift, then it would be time to question your personal biases as you have impugned Melissa.
I don't think Warriors have issues... I just think people want to see them as easy as professions like sorceror...Your thoughts are not empirically justified.

[Stunseed]

If bearhug were more quick to finish, I'd use it on my Plat warrior. It was sexy when I was like level 4.

[Sylvan Dreams]

How is berserk "shitty"?

[ElanthianSiren]

I've been intermittently campaigning on the officials to get wtrick spit replaced by a warrior-only verb. So far (obviously) no good. :(The list of warrior-only CMANs:
Bearhug, Berserk, Bmastery, Haymaker, Headbutt, MBlow, Pmastery, SBlow, Sunder, Tackle, Twinhamm, Bonding. Staggering Blow is the showiest one there, but it a) requires a prerequisite maneuver and b) isn't even possible to use with all styles. That your centerpiece is Coup is proof enough for my position: Coup is not warrior-only.

Well, I've sort of given up on trying to get them to make non-implicit moves for warriors. They have their vision of what they're supposed to be, and I have mine. They clash. Simu makes the rules, so I'm waiting for a more acceptable style, to be honest. I doubt they're going to scrap spit because they consider that done, and doing so, would be a waste of productivity.

Of those moves, bonding makes me nervous, due to all the weapon changes she has had since IV. She's been TWC OHE, THE, Thrown (not seriously, but I wanted to test it since I had a disk I won at a merchanting event), brawl (though never OHE brawl like my rogue who rocks), and finally ranged, which I found livable due to the fact that she's forced out VERY rarely. I'm not much for blunt instruments; my penile envy makes Kiera a pointy kinda gal ;) . Hopefully with monks, they'll bring out something like a gunsen for her. That's my wet Kiera dream come true. A sophisticated fan looking set of blades makes you a nalfein tea elf and a killer in one breath.

I'm actually migrating coup down though it looks really cool to coup degrace something with an arrow in your hand. It's not practical with a bow.

>cman coupdegrace bend
[Roll result: 217 (open d100: 87) Penalties: 6]
You lunge towards the forest bendith, intending to finish her off!
You make a powerful thrust with your arrow at her throat!
Throat penetrated all the way to the spine as blood sprays all over the place! What a mess.
The forest bendith's eyes grow dim as her lifeforce fades away.


It's more for show since, as I noted, I don't use cmans much at all.

[Stanley Burrell]

How is berserk "shitty"?

For me, it's mainly because I play a Paladin who can BESEECH.

Let me rephrase, either Paladin BESEECH is less shitty or warrior berserk is less effective.

[Stanley Burrell]

I like how people who have only played pures cite CM as warrior awesomeness.

Woohoo for quickstrike and nerfed surge.

[ElanthianSiren]

For me, it's mainly because I play a Paladin who can BESEECH.

Let me rephrase, either Paladin BESEECH is less shitty or warrior berserk is less effective.

How many SP does Berserk cost vs. mana for Beseech?

[Stanley Burrell]

Wizards feinting though, NO PROBLEM!

[ElanthianSiren]

I like how people who have only played pures cite CM as warrior awesomeness.

Woohoo for quickstrike and nerfed surge.

I have and play both when I get the opportunity to play GS (which isn't a WHOLE lot lately). They're good for different satisfactions IMO.

A caster lets you see insane spells with fun and surreal effects. I love watching my empath bone shatter things into oblivion. Some of those crits are incredibly fun. I don't envy squares their CMAN abilities (obviously).

I love watching my rogue incapacitate and work with her katars for purely the blood spray satisfaction of it. Luckily my rogue isn't a sadist, but that doesn't mean I can't be toward GS mobs when I have to blow off some steam.

[Stanley Burrell]

How many SP does Berserk cost vs. mana for Beseech?

Too many, half the time I end up hurting my back mustering up unsuccessful berserks in the battlefield and then if I manage to disk my weapon fired morning star, I get to quit the hunt because I can't surge anymore so my boxes have decided to be vengeful.

Beseech is a measly 20 or something for my pallie. It rocks because I have STANCE DEF and/or SIGN WRACKING and/or crawl/move and/or 1630/1615 copied and ready to fire knowing the instantaneous capacity of the Paladin BESEECH combined with the aforementioned is always a viable escape route. Knowing you can fry your nerves and still have it work is pretty nifty as well. What's really screwed up is something like e-waves when you can't break a berserk and start leaping to your feet instead of direly needing to be out.

I <3 my Paladin so much it's kind of inappropriate. Best part is going back into the battlefield without having to leech spells from others. I had played a Warrior for so long that this basically was embedded in my brain as the only viable way to hunt. I can assure you that hunting in an area filled with warrior-based undead and heavy CS troll-types that one profession will require a need for spells and time wasted in the donate-to-the-priestess fund, where the other will not.

Warriors suck in level progression, but it is absolutely awesome to have a Paladin I can play mainly until 2014. I will not convert my main Warrior char because, erm, he was, is and will remain a Warrior, heh. It's not a matter of selling out. I'm waiting to hunt him with the same experience benefits as the other professions whereas related to profession specificity.

I've done a lot of ranting, but I feel like it's addressed some important issues. I'll definitely be sending Oscuro or some GMs a bunch of suggestions in the near future. I'll be more diplomatic about our lacking-ness in lettering than I am on these boards.

The worst thing is having made your own bed by being a Voln Warrior who doesn't Fu. That really stinks. I've been hoping that if, maybe, the Warrior trend in all its overtness continues, then there will at least be a new FWI area to try and kill stuff.

[Stanley Burrell]

I have and play both when I get the opportunity to play GS (which isn't a WHOLE lot lately). They're good for different satisfactions IMO.

A caster lets you see insane spells with fun and surreal effects. I love watching my empath bone shatter things into oblivion. Some of those crits are incredibly fun. I don't envy squares their CMAN abilities (obviously).

I love watching my rogue incapacitate and work with her katars for purely the blood spray satisfaction of it. Luckily my rogue isn't a sadist, but that doesn't mean I can't be toward GS mobs when I have to blow off some steam.

Yeah dual katars with a rogue is nice. Damn nice for a warrior too. Just nicer for the rogue, heh.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Too many, half the time I end up hurting my back mustering up unsuccessful berserks in the battlefield and then if I manage to disk my weapon fired morning star, I get to quit the hunt because I can't surge anymore so my boxes have decided to be vengeful.

This must be a level or ranks thing, then. I don't fail berserk attempts nor do I have stamina issues.

In instances where I am stunned due to weapon fire, I first activate my stuff-weapon-in-disk script and then berserk. Maybe a similar strategy would help you?

[Latrinsorm]

I can assure you that hunting in an area filled with warrior-based undead and heavy CS troll-types that one profession will require a need for spells and time wasted in the donate-to-the-priestess fund, where the other will not.So don't hunt there. Every profession has areas they struggle in.

[crb]

Eh.... You're probably talking early web with the stuff about redux etc. Go back an iteration to warriors on AOL and the other dial up systems. My warrior was a hiding ambusher, sword board, and I never missed any of that really (MSTRIKE, redux etc). In fact, I never had a problem with warriors until they made that system obsolete in IV, and mine probably hunted until level 30 without any spells. She also pre-dates the GS guilds, so this is a fun topic for me. She started wearing mass spells around 30ish then darkstone on the node was where people started noticing, holy crap this chick is wearing nothing but mass spells because of her craptastic TD -- good times.

No, I'm talking about that time period, just at higher levels when you started seeing more frequent casting critters. Warriors really sucked.

[Durgrimst]

Or a neat addition would be the ability to mine for magical metals that you can then use to in the forge. Or warriors could be able to forge armor as well and the closer to perfect the armor is the lighter it is or something like that.

[Drunken Durfin]

Or a neat addition would be the ability to mine for magical metals that you can then use to in the forge. Or warriors could be able to forge armor as well and the closer to perfect the armor is the lighter it is or something like that.

Gemstone Official Forums:

GemStone IV -


-Artisan Skills



-Mining/Smelting

[Stanley Burrell]

So don't hunt there. Every profession has areas they struggle in.

What I was getting at is that versatility is far more expanded for semis.

[ElanthianSiren]

No, I'm talking about that time period, just at higher levels when you started seeing more frequent casting critters. Warriors really sucked.

Casting stuff is still generally an issue at higher levels. You learn to deal with it. That's nifty though; which warrior was yours?

[Warriorbird]

I think berserk is pretty unbelievably great. Most of the suggestions for "improvements" would make it much worse in my opinion.