Official: Demon RP Verbs and Idle Messaging

[Fallen]

The demons summoned by Sorcerers with the spell Minor Summoning (725) have been updated. Previously most interactive verbs were prevented from use with demons. This is no longer the case. All verbs that do not imply physical contact that typically work with creature targets should now work with demons. Most verbs that involve physical contact are still disabled. However, some verbs have special messaging, particularly for the summoner. Many verbs are unique to each of the eight demon subtypes. Additionally, demons now have a large amount of idle messaging.

A special thanks goes out to the players for submitting a fair chunk of the messaging as well as former GM Jharra for writing much of the messaging as well. Also, thank you to former GM Khaladon for his contribution to starting to code this project.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team

This message was originally posted in Sorcerers, Sorcerer General Discussion. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=28&message=10993

[Fallen]

Don't worry about the demon idle messaging annoying you while you rest, people.

[Makkah]

Would love to see some examples...

[Fallen]

Hopefully Querthose can pop in and fulfill your request. He came up with the winning messaging on atleast one demon type.

[Fallen]

Querthose's post on the Official regarding the verbs.

Here are the verbs we've figured out for sure:

Imps

SLAP
STARE
WAVE

Gnolls:

WAVE
SLAP
STARE

Abyran'sa

POINT
PET
PUSH
SLAP
WAVE
SNAP

Grik:

TOUCH
SLAP

AISHAN

STARE
GAZE
SNAP
RUB
CLENCH
GLANCE

[Necromancer]

Here is the rough version of the Aishan messaging. It's the only version I have, but the messaging that made it into the Aishan is cleaned up a bit.

1. Clench:

Anger seizes your expression as you reach down and grab the <color> wolf/aishan by the ruff of its fur, grasping it forcibly. The aishan/wolf looks up at you fearfully, and a a sharp yelp escapes from its oversized maw.

XXX contorts his face in anger as he/she reaches down and grabs the aishan/wolf by the ruff of its <color> fur and grasps it forcibly. Looking up at XXX fearfully, the aishan/wolf lets out a sharp yelp from its oversized maw.

2. Rub

You run your hand over the aishan/wolf's coarse <color> fur, but your fingertips pass through it as though there were nothing there at all. The aishan/wolf looks over devotedly for a moment before resuming a blank stare ahead.

XXX runs his hand over the coarse <color> fur of an aishan/wolf, and you notice his/her fingertips sink oddly into it, as though there were nothing there at all. The aishan/wolf looks over at XXX devotedly for a moment before resuming a blank stare ahead.

3. GAZE

You look over at your <color> aishan/wolf, and it turns its gaze upon you. You see (random messaging chosen from A-G; 3rd person messaging is in parentheses)

As XXX looks over at the <color> aishan/wolf, its head rises for an instant, and their eyes meet (appropriate 3rd person messaging depending on which messaging was chosen for the verb)

A. (first person) A perfect reflection of yourself in its pupiless eyes. The <color> irises shift and swirl constantly, however, entrancing you for a moment, and a wave of dizziness begins to overtake you as you wrench your gaze away.

(After a moment XXX shakes his head slightly and looks away)

B. What appears at first to be a perfect reflection of yourself in the aishan/wolf's large <color> eyes. As you inspect the reflection more closely however, a dark figure appears behind you, swiftly lowering a jagged knife towards your back! Spinning around with a scream caught in your throat, you prepare to evade the knife only to realize that there is nothing there.

(XXX's eyes suddenly go wide, and he/she spins around wildly, emitting a choked scream. He/She looks around confusedly for a moment before exhaling nervously and looking away.)

C. Yourself reflected perfectly in the aishan's/wolf's large pupiless eyes. The <color> irisis shift and flicker oddly, as if mirroring flame. Suddenly your reflection before you opens its mouth wide in a silent scream, and you watch in horror as the flames devour your body. With a shudder you shut your eyes and turn away.

(XXX suddenly pales, closing their eyes abruptly and turning their head away.)

D. Your face reflected in the aishan's/wolf's large pupiless eyes, but something about what you see strikes you as odd. A heart-stopping chill creeps up your spine as you realize that your head has no body attached and instead ends in a bloody stump. Palms sweating, you involuntarily clasp your neck to ensure that it is still there.

(XXX's eyes widen in shock for a moment, and he/she quickly wraps his/her hands around his/her neck as if unsure whether or not it is still there)

E. A reflection of yourself just as you are in the aishan's/wolf's large <color> eyes. Taking a moment to consider the image contained in its irises, you realize that the face before you is rapidly aging. You stare in disbelief as your skin quickly decays off of the bone, and within moments there is nothing left but a cracked skull that soon turns to dust and blows away. Shuddering involuntarily, you break away from the aishan's gaze, haunted by what you have just seen.

(XXX's shudders involuntarily and wrenches his/her gaze away)

F. Yourself reflected in its <color> eyes. The image is a perfect replica of your face, but your expression appears fixed in a garish smile. Slowly your face drops out of view, revealing a disfigured humanoid smiling cruelly beneath it. Bile works its way up your throat as you realize the creature has attached your skin to a stick as a crude mask. Swallowing the bile back down, you turn away quickly. The nausea eventually fades, but the image in your mind lingers a while longer.

(He/She suddenly turns green and spins away, clasping his/her hand over his/her mouth)

G. Yourself reflected in its eyes. The face before you is your own, but for some reason your eyes are tightly shut, and a small trail of tears is streaming down your face. Without warning, the eyelids fly open, and you let out a high pitched shriek when you discern not eyes, but two masses of maggots writhing in an opaque liquid slowly leaking from your sockets. Immediately the image expands, and you find yourself looking into a rotting coffin inhabited by your decaying body. As quickly as the image came, however, it fades away leaving your horrified reflection behind.

(XXX lets out a high pitched shriek and gazes at the < > aishan/wolf in horror and disbelief)

4. Stare:
Narrowing your eyes dangerously, you cast an aishan/wolf an irritated look. The aishan whimpers timidly, and its entire body trembles in response.

XXX narrows his/her eyes dangerous and casts an aishan/wolf an irritated look. The aishan whimpers timidly, and its entire body trembles in response.

5. Tickle:

You snap your fingers, and a < > aishan/wolf moves to your side obediently, its bulky musculature shifting oddly beneath its rippling <color> coat.

XXX snaps his/her fingers, and an < > aishan/wolf moves to his/her side obediently, its bulky musculature shifting oddly beneath its rippling <color> coat.

6. Glance:

You glance at an < > aishan/wolf and incline your head slightly. The aishan/wolf licks its lips, causing a small bit of drool pooling in its mouth to spill onto the ground. An acrid odor wafts up from where it landed, and the aishan/wolf begins panting heavily.



XXX glances over at an < > aishan/wolf and inclines his/her head slightly. The aishan/wolf licks its lips, causing a small bit of drool pooling in its mouth to spill onto the ground. An acrid odor wafts up from where it landed, and the aishan/wolf begins panting heavily.

Idle Actions:

1. An Aishan/Wolf wanders over to XXX and sniffs at them suspiciously for a moment before returning to your side.

An Aishan/Wolf wanders over to you and sniffs at you suspiciously for a moment before returning to xxx's side.

An Aishan/Wolf wanders over to XXX and sniffs at them suspiciously for a moment before returning to XXX's side.

2. An Aishan/Wolf hovers protectively by your side, baring its oversized teeth at nothing in particular.

An Aishan/Wolf hovers protectively by XXX's side, baring its massive teeth at nothing in particular.

3. An Aishan/Wolf gazes ahead blankly, seemingly oblivious to its surroundings.

4. An < > Aishan/Wolf suddenly turns and focuses its <color> eyes upon you. Meeting its gaze, you see....(previous messaging for the GAZE verb, but randomly selects someone in the room)

An < > aishan/wolf suddenly turns and focuses its <color> eyes upon XXX.....

5. An < > aishan/wolf cocks its head to one side and raises its muzzle up into the air, sniffing anxiously. After a moment, the fur of its <color> ruff bristles, and it begins to growl at the shadows. (only if there are hidden/invisible people in the area)

6. An < > aishan/wolf twists its neck to raise one of its ears up to one side and begins sniffing furiously while staring vacantly ahead.

7. In response to PUSH, PULL,, PUNCH, KICK, SLAP that targets the summoner: A < > aishan/wolf positions itself between you and XXX, baring its teeth and emitting a low growl causing its coarse <color> fur to ripple across its body..

As XXX approaches you, a < > aishan/wolf quickly moves to position itself between the two of you with bared teeth and a low growl, causing its coarse <color> fur to ripple across its body.

8. An < > aishan/wolf opens its oversized maw wide in an extended yawn, exposing an intimidating assortment of jagged teeth.

9. A < > aishan/wolf paws at the ground, and its coarse <color> coat twitches and quivers for a moment.

[Fallen]

Alright. I will admit that is quite cool. Gives me a reason to use demons.

[Kainen]

Now I miss having an Aishan hehe.

[Latrinsorm]

I think the "my demon automatically prevents you from punching me in the face!!" is pretty corny, but no cornier than "my haughty demeanor does the same!!". I hope the "I sneef u" is similarly restricted.

[Liberi Fatali]

I ran my verb script on the grantris, and found one bloody verb. RUB:

Jenovadeath gives the crimson-eyed grantris a gentle rub on its back. It appears to settle down.

Stupid.

[Numbers]

Wow.

I still have no reason to use demons.

[Necromancer]

Then you're a waste of RP space who will never be happy

[7Seconds]

actually, the scripts are nice, but Demons are still practicaly worthless, even being able to hold 40 mana, I've no desire what so ever to use them.

[Numbers]

Then you're a waste of RP space who will never be happy

The scripts will lose their novelty after a few days.

The spell is still worthless as a level 25 professional spell in a pure circle.

I don't expect you to agree, since we all know you're the best sorcerer who's ever played the game, and the biggest fanboy GS has ever seen.

As you constantly feel the need to remind us with damn near every single post you make.

[Fallen]

What is stupid is that the scripts are designed for UNILLUSIONED demons, not for their illusioned form. How is that useful for those that live outside of Teras/Icemule?

[Numbers]

It's not.

Demons are constantly touted as a utility spell. I say as a utility spell they suck. Mana's not really needed as a CoL'ing sorcerer. Phantom pickpocket ranks aren't needed if you keep your containers closed. Interfering/breaking sanctuaries is useful... it also should have been a part of 715, as was suggested years and years ago. The only absolutely worthwhile and novel thing demons can do (aishan) is find hidden/invisible people. But that's hardly worth a level 25 spell slot. Not to mention the mind-numbing tedium of mastering illusions, all of which are useless except the last one.

So then people started touting it as an RP spell.

Thanks, but I RP just fine without a crutch. Not to mention, again, the illusion shit you've gotta go through, so that when you're anywhere near civilization, you don't have a DEMON following you, but a fucking toucan or a ferret. And you can't use these scripts with them, so what's the point?

No, sorry, the spell still sucks. I've never been one to accept a steaming plate of shit from Simu and eat it up, unlike Queertoes.

[Liberi Fatali]

What is stupid is that the scripts are designed for UNILLUSIONED demons, not for their illusioned form. How is that useful for those that live outside of Teras/Icemule?

Last time I checked, I was getting arrested on Teras for an unillusioned demon.

As far as I can recall, Icemule is the only place where you can get away with summoning. Zul Logoth has some wankish permit system, however.

[Fallen]

Or wait, is that license for the town of Zul Logoth?

[Liberi Fatali]

Or wait, is that license for the town of Zul Logoth?

You can't triple stamp a double stamp.

[Fallen]

No luck on seeing if we could get some scripts for our illusioned demons. Seems Oscuro is burnt out on coming up with messaging. After 220, 725, and 350, I don't blame him.

[Allereli]

Gnolls look like they do yoga, I could do without the messaging. For the mana capacity alone, demons are worth it

A stooped and wizened gnoll stretches slowly for a long moment.

A stooped and wizened gnoll stretches its left arm.

A stooped and wizened gnoll stretches its right arm.

A stooped and wizened gnoll shrugs its shoulders.

[Necromancer]

Yeah, the issue with illusioned demons is one heck of an oversight. I'm hoping someone else picks that back up to finish the project.

And just because I don't trash every single thing GMs come out with that doesn't make me UBER doesn't make me a fan boy.

If you can't find a use out of 725, fine, but that doesn't make it a waste of a spell slot. There's a huge difference between your personal willingness to utilize a spell and its utility.

[Numbers]

And just because I don't trash every single thing GMs come out with that doesn't make me UBER doesn't make me a fan boy.

No, but the fact that you strap on your knee pads for almost everything they do does.



If you can't find a use out of 725, fine, but that doesn't make it a waste of a spell slot. There's a huge difference between your personal willingness to utilize a spell and its utility.

No, it's still a shitty spell for a level 25 pure professional slot. Just because you're not willing to take off your rose-colored knee pads doesn't make it useful.

[Numbers]

For the mana capacity alone, demons are worth it

I've never had mana issues as a sorcerer. Either you joined Voln, or you don't make good use of sacrifice and wands.

[Fallen]

I find the most useful aspects of demons to be their ability to carry silver and boxes. However, this is not enough to deal with summoning the specific type of demon you want, keeping it present, mastering illusions, keeping the demon illusioned, and dealing with the event of you failing to keep the demon illusioned.

I rather go without. I thought about getting that rattle when I first saw those RP verbs, but again, they don't work with an illusioned demon, and I dont ever see myself resting outside of a town.

[Necromancer]

I'm sorry you don't know how to make better use of your spells,but I'm glad I don't have that problem.

[Fallen]

People don't have a ton of Demonology just flat out wont be getting worthwhile mana returns. People that don't have encumbrance issues wont really need to be handing off coins. People that don't need to break sanctuaries (ergo..most people most of the time) wont need to bother with Abyran'sa. Guarding against pickpockets is nice, but you CAN make yourself pickpocket proof. Also, having a demon in all but 2 towns means mastering illusiosn, which in a word, sucks. It ISN'T worth it. This is coming from a master. Having a demon carry items is nice, but those demons that can carry a lot usually have shitty mana returns.

There is one awesome use for illusions that I found, but unfortunately I am in the *1* fucking hunting ground where I cannot really make a use for it. You can have your demon carry around your eye, then have a macro that releases the eye, preps and casts 717, then picks your eye back up. This basically gives you a mass-disabler/killer CS based spell that is fairly easy to use. I suggest people try it and see if they can incorperate this attack into their hunting methods.

Other than that, I suggest looking into if your demonology can give you enough of a bonus to coin carrying where you can give a demon 3-4k+ in silvers. This IS nice, I will admit. However, is it nice enough for you to go through the hassle that is 725? From what I have seen from most sorcerers? No, it isn't.

[Allereli]

I've never had mana issues as a sorcerer. Either you joined Voln, or you don't make good use of sacrifice and wands.

I make plenty use of wands, don't use sacrifice that often since I wrack, but I tend to hunt long past fried, and go hunt other things after doing a bounty for alchemy components. I'm not anywhere near capped (have under 200 mana), and I don't triple either, so yes, I can miss when I cast. I just take advantage of what is available to me, and demons is one of them.

Do I need a demon for the extra mana to get fried? No. Does it give me enough to fog or shift back to town after? Yes

Demons also make a great mana dump when infusing.

[Necromancer]

Mana, Coins, and Items are what I use mine for primarily. Guarding too, of course. And sanctuary control- it doesn't come about often, but when you need it you're *glad* you have it.

And the RP value is key. A shame about the verbs though =( I say it again.

[Numbers]

I'm sorry you don't know how to make better use of your spells,but I'm glad I don't have that problem.

I'm sorry you don't know how to turn down a spoonful of shit when you're told it's ice cream, but I'm glad I don't have that problem.

I'm also glad I'm not so arrogant and condescending.

[Fallen]

Lets look at this carefully using Hakwea's site, Http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/index.html

Abilities - Hold Mana / Base Mana / Mana formula / Base Coins / Coins per rank
Abyran Yes / 9 / bonus/10 / 600 / 45
Verlok Yes / 0 / (bonus/10)-3 / 800 / 50
Igaesha Yes / 12 / bonus/10 / 200 / 10
Grantris Yes / 0 / (bonus/10)-3 / 500 / 55
Grik Yes / 4 / bonus/10 / 1000 / 60
Imp Yes / 19 / bonus/10 / 500 / 40
Aishan No / N/A / N/A / N/A / N/A
Shien Yes / 24 / bonus/10 / 300 / 20


Guard - All Demons can guard your pockets. Aishan get bonuses

Attack Type - Damage done to thief if they catch them
Bite Poison - Abyran
Bite(some flare) - Verlok
Phase Acid - Igaesha
Bite Puncture - Grantris
Bite - Grik
Bite - Imp
Bite Disease - Aishan
Bite - Shien

All demons could carry atleast 1 item.

Get from the ground / Hold if given
2 - Abyran - 2
3 - Verlok - 3
0 - Igaesha - 2
4 - Grantris - 4
2 - Grik - 2
2 - Imp - 2
1 - Aishan - 2
2 - Shien - 2


Scout - All demons can scout...but this is a useless ability most of the time

Find - All demons can find people. Aishan can find hidden/inviso people

Deliver - All demons but the Aishan can deliver messages. Griks can only speak elvish, though.

Eat - All demons can act like goat pins and eat trash

Interfere - All demons can interfere with the formation of a sanctuary

[Fallen]

Looking at that, The Shein is best at giving you mana, base 24 mana and room for growth to give more if you train in Demonology. The Grik will give you the most coin carrying, with 1k to start, and 60 silver per rank. Grantris will carry the most crap, with 4 items..so like one box.

The rest of the abilities are more fluff/RP, and are situational. If the ability to summon specific demons was based on skill alone, and not having VERY limited rune knowledge, you could get one of these guys if you had enough skill. As it is now, you need to buy another player's rune, if there is even one available, or just keep trying to summon the demon you want until you get it. Annoying.

It looks like Grik for coins, and Shein for mana are the way to go. Both can do a bit of the either one's skills, so it is just an issue of which is more important to you.

At cap with 63 ranks of Demonology:

Grik can hold 4780 silver and 20 mana
Shien can hold 1560 silver and 40 mana

Worth it to bother with either of them? You decide.

[Xandalf]

Anyone who thinks Demons truly worth it is fooling themselves. Seriously.

This is coming from a capped sorcerer with plenty of Demon ranks.

[Necromancer]

worth 'what' exactly? A few hundred silver worth of a runestone charge? No problems here. It beats wizard familiars.

And there IS this thing called roleplaying...

Hakwea's guide is incorrect on the finding hidden and invisible people part. Any demon can do it, but aishan are the best.

[Xandalf]

So you're trying to tell me I need a demon to RP my character? Nice.

I can think of only a very few select times that it would even be useful to my RP. It may help YOUR RP, and that's fine and dandy. But you're totally wrong to insinaute that it's helpful to RP as a whole.

[Fallen]

There are certain steps that are made when making demons viable AT ALL, called Illusions training, that goes completely against a great many sorcerer's roleplay. That alone stops many from using it.

[Sean of the Thread]

I never fucked with them because A)stupid B)annoying illusion reps.

/end

[Fallen]

Another huge detractor of demons is that even once you master illusions, you must constantly refresh both the illusion, AND the demon to keep it around. IMO they should do away with the need to refresh the illusion. The demon itself I understand. Otherwise, they are just a pain to maintain.

[Allereli]

Worth it to bother with either of them? You decide.

(a) Not everyone is at cap

(b) That is not a lot of demonology training

at 57: Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 152 52

If you don't plan on training for it, then no, it's not worth summoning one. Proficient (name your skill in any profession) is at least 1x training if it's very niche, and 2x-3x otherwise. For me, the 38 mana I get from a shien with a full head represents 19% of a full tank. That's a considerable amount.

One of the things about sorcery is that we're all forced to make a tough choice in training and give one factor up to gain another. I choose to have a low CS and thus have to hunt at or near level when alone, but I have more supplementary skills. Some people choose to be powerful necromancers, and others choose to be powerful demonologists. Some choose neither and 4x in spells instead. And just wait until we get sorcerers doubling in spiritual summoning only.

We even have choices mana-usage wise. We can stand there and 702 or 705 things until the cows come home and never have any mana issues, or we can use spells that are high risk mana losses if you miss like torment and DC and have IMO a much more interesting time. It makes me want to bang my head against the wall when I go hunt with another sorcerer and they ONLY use 702 and 705.

As a "community" (i.e. the people that post and/or bicker on the boards), we're all out to protect our own interests and training--hence all my, "let's make this with alchemy posts," I'm no different. Some can't accept that with some training choices, some spells will be pretty useless, so they post their own wish lists and say, "let's get rid of this spell, it does SORCERERS no good," when they really mean, "it does ME no good." And the people who would take a considerable loss if that spell were taken away reply with slurs and threats. And then the people who posted originally reply with slurs and threats. And we go round and round and back again until the next big treatise on someone's wishes for sorcery are posted the next day.

I think the only consensus we can all make on spells is that nighmare needs serious help (I only use it on grizzleds since they're immune to stun), and disease absolutely sucks.

[Fallen]

Though I don't have anything but a hunch to back this up, I would bet most sorcerers are not 1xed in Demonology, I bet that number drops even lower past level 50.

[Allereli]

Though I don't have anything but a hunch to back this up, I would bet most sorcerers are not 1xed in Demonology, I bet that number drops even lower past level 50.

probably not, but that is their choice to make. There is no rule out there that says you have to be 20+ spell ranks above training in the sorcery circle, but I have a feeling that many do because they can't stand getting non-101+ end rolls.

[Necromancer]

Allereli put it quite nicely in her post, I believe. There's a big difference between "I don't use it" and "this is worthless".

People make way too big a deal of demonology training when it comes to 725, however. Querthose has 42 ranks, and I use nothing but demon-specific runestones. The average mid-high level sorcerer has about 50 ranks of demonology. I don't see it has somehow prohibitive that they don't have 100.

[Makkah]

Can we see some more god damn messaging already?

[7Seconds]

when more then 80% of the players with access to said spell don't use it...its a waste. it is a great idea, poorly implemented, and even more so restricted.

[Necromancer]

It could stand for a few improvements, I'll agree there. And the Illusion guild system needs an overhaul (big time). But I blame players as much as I play spell design. I also blame overall game design. Most of your time is spent hunting, and consequently most players are just looking for some major edge on the field. Nothing else really clicks with a lot of the player base, and so it's impossible to make them happy with any utility spell.

[7Seconds]

Minor demons as an RP tool I'm all for, but when that RP tool starts getting my character arrested, it goes out with the garbage.

[Allereli]

One very sound hunting method with a demon is to disarm via 708 or whatever means and have the demon eat the weapon/shield that is dropped. It's a very quick macro, and very effective.

Besides the yoga messages (ugh), here's what else it does:

In response to some small sound, a stooped and wizened gnoll turns to its left.

I tend to keep mine illusioned since I don't know when I might need to fog back to town in an emergency, and because all my aliases are set to command a "gnoll." I suppose I should change them to mdemon, but oh well.

[7Seconds]

kill sig BTW Allereli

Never thought of putting a jaw trap in that container <G>

[Allereli]

And the Illusion guild system needs an overhaul (big time).

Completely agreed. Audience reps had to be one of the worst ideas ever implemented.

The partner reps were annoying, yes, but I found them invaluable in helping to meeting other people. I made a lot of friends and acquaintences in game through partner training. And now I have double partner reps (FTW!) and it's not nearly as tedious.

Here's another:

A stooped and wizened gnoll lifts its chin slightly and pauses in a listening pose. (ugh)

The messaging is overall way too cutesy


kill sig BTW Allereli

Thanks! The best one was the thief one day that got boobie trapped when I was dead. It never gets old.

[crb]

The rest of the abilities are more fluff/RP, and are situational. If the ability to summon specific demons was based on skill alone, and not having VERY limited rune knowledge, you could get one of these guys if you had enough skill. As it is now, you need to buy another player's rune, if there is even one available, or just keep trying to summon the demon you want until you get it. Annoying.

Evarin makes a very sound point. It'd be one thing if the demons had their poor utility/cost structure as they do, but couple that with the fact that the average caster will not be able to even specifically pick which demon they summon well...

I've never summoned a demon. I won't comment further because on the usefulness because yes, I haven't use them. However, the fact that I haven't used them is itself a statement of usefulness. As (Rheisia?) said, if 80% of sorcerers aren't using them its a problem.

of course I expect to be told I just don't know how to play a sorcerer or something :rolleyes:

[Allereli]

Of course you know how to play a sorcerer, in your way. Just like the rest of us know how to play a sorcerer in our own way.

And that was my point all along in my previous post about the cycle of bullshit on the sorcerer boards (both here and official). Can I get a Worf gif please?

[Fallen]

What needs to be done is find out exactly what verbs do NOT transfer over from unillusioned demon to Illusioned demon, and try to see if there are any we could find justification for to argue from them to apply. Oscuro said he would be willing to review said verbs if we could build a case for them. That is what I intend to do with the help of several other sorcerers.

[Necromancer]

Does the phrase "bitter queen" mean anything to you?

Moving on to the productive people.

What WOULD make 725 more useful for you? If you could make some reasonable changes to the spell, what would you suggest?

[radamanthys]

I say, do the RP thing, get a whole bunch of chars. together and storm Moot Hall, etc. with evidence that demon's aren't dangerous. Really, Illistim is the only place that should resist. Banning demons in town is a story thing, from what I gathered, not a design thing.

[radamanthys]

As said, I'd use it far more if not for the whole illusions thing. At lower levels, when skills are sub-par, illusions training is just tedious.

[Str8JcktSerenade]

As said, I'd use it far more if not for the whole illusions thing. At lower levels, when skills are sub-par, illusions training is just tedious.

I agree. I'm still a fan of demons, but i'd actually "use" them a lot more often if i didn't have to waste exorbitant amounts of time trying to learn illusions just to keep them cloaked from authorities and me outta jail.

Another use i found for them, which i haven't heard here yet, is selling gems and stuff as i find them out in the wilds without having to travel back to town. "Just bring a note outside town and wait for my courier." now I'm a lil less encumbered, a lil richer, and i didnt even have to stop killin stuff.

So, i say, let my lil harmless demon in town....or at least most towns.

Also, wasn't there once rumor of a 750 Major Summoning spell? With big evil demons that could do your bidding and kill and stuff? Those're the kinds of demons that probably shouldn't be allowed in town...

if one should need a good RP segue to not only start allowing demons into town, but also to keep us sorcs in a continued state of false hope...

...here's my idea for how to work in a change of "legislation"....big bad Sorcerer pulls a big ole demon out of hell which starts wreaking havok. Little demon comes and scares away big demon somehow. Towns vote to allow minors in town. we're slightly happier, and also nice and cockteased from a glimpse of something that we'll never get....you know, that feeling we've all come to know and love in here.

[Fallen]

Illusions for the fledgling sorcerer are now actually harder due to the fact you have to learn alchemy on top of it to progress. Another arguably useless skill.

[Fallen]

Here is the work done with Grik. Two verbs, both visible in the illusioned/unillusioned form:

>slap grik
As you gesture threateningly at the reddish-orange grik'tval, it cowers backward in terror, spreads its wings wide, and prostrates itself on the ground.
>touch grik
The grik'tval submits to your touch without complaint, though its wings shiver unhappily. Its skin is remarkably dry, with a smooth texture that is almost silky.

With the Illusioned ones being the same.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is what others see for the Illusioned one:

Evarin makes a threatening gesture toward a robed figure. The figure cowers backward in terror and prostrates itself on the ground.
J>
Evarin touches a robed figure. Figure shivers slightly, but it does not otherwise react.

Note the bug on the second verb for the third person touch/pet/lick/etc.

I am hoping there are others and I just missed them.

----
This is the first time I actively had my demon do this. Check it out.

An Ithzir seer folds her hands in front of herself, then opens her eyes!
An Ithzir seer becomes very still as she bows her head. She slowly raises her arms out to her sides until they are horizontal to the ground.
An Ithzir seer attempts to create a sanctuary but the chaotic nature of a bi-taloned reddish-orange grik'tval interferes with her attempt.
>grin
You grin.

[Fallen]

Missed one for Grik's. Pour: Spot the bug!

As you raise the tincture of sovyn over the reddish-orange grik'tval, the grik'tval spreads its wings and flutters them in incredible alarm, and you feel it fighting madly to break free of your control. It only calms again when you lower the sovyn without pouring it.

As you raise the tincture of sovyn over the figure, you feel it fighting madly to break free of your control. It only calms again when you lower the sovyn without pouring it.

---
3rd person

As Evarin raises a tincture of sovyn over a bi-taloned reddish-orange grik'tval, the grik'tval spreads its wings and flutters them wildly in alarm. When Evarin lowers the sovyn without pouring it, the sovyn slowly calms down again.

As Evarin raises a tincture of sovyn over a robed figure, the figure trembles in visible alarm. When Evarin lowers the sovyn without pouring it, the sovyn slowly calms down again.

[Fallen]

Here is the Aishan messaging, for the third party view, ignore the additional commentary. I am arguing to get the Illusioned wolf to do some of the same verbs as the unillusioned one.

>stare aish
Narrowing your eyes dangerously, you cast an irritated look at the aishan. It whimpers timidly, and its entire body trembles in response.
>gaze aish
You look over at the aishan, and it turns its gaze upon you. You see yourself reflected in its eyes. The image is a perfect replica of your face, but your expression appears fixed in a garish smile. Slowly your face drops out of view, revealing a disfigured humanoid smiling cruelly beneath it. Bile works its way up your throat as you realize the creature has attached your skin to a stick as a crude mask. Swallowing the bile back down, you turn away quickly. The nausea eventually fades, but the image in your mind lingers a while longer.
>rub aish
You run your hand over the aishan's coarse fur, but your fingertips pass through it as though there were nothing there at all. The aishan looks over devotedly for a moment before resuming a blank stare ahead.
>clench aish
>
Anger seizes your expression as you reach down and grab the aishan by the ruff of its fur, grasping it forcibly. The aishan looks up at you fearfully, and a sharp yelp escapes from its oversized maw.
>glance aish
You glance at the aishan and incline your head slightly. The aishan licks its lips, causing a small bit of drool pooling in its mouth to spill onto the ground. An acrid odor wafts up from where it landed, and the aishan begins panting heavily.
>snap aish
You snap your fingers, and the aishan moves to your side obediently, its bulky musculature shifting oddly beneath its rippling coat.

-----

Evarin narrows his eyes dangerous and casts an irritated look at the aishan. It whimpers timidly, and its entire body trembles in response. - STARE completely appropriate for the wolf

Evarin narrows his eyes dangerous and casts an irritated look at the aishan. It whimpers timidly, and its entire body trembles in response. - GAZE Appropriate third party messaging for the wolf. We look at the wolf and shudder. Nothing bad, there. The wolf's eyes would affect us the same way as the Aishans.

Evarin snaps his fingers, and the aishan moves to his side obediently, its bulky musculature shifting oddly beneath its rippling coat. - SNAP Could be problematic that the musculature shifts oddly, but honestly...THE WOLF IS BRICK RED. I think it is going to be rather odd anyway.

Evarin runs his hand over the coarse fur of the aishan, and you notice his fingertips sink oddly into it, as though there were nothing there at all. The aishan looks over at Evarin devotedly for a moment before resuming a blank stare ahead. - RUB Does not transfer over. This one is going to have to stay blocked.

Evarin's contorts his face in anger as him reaches down and grabs the aishan by the ruff of its fur and grasps it forcibly. Looking up at Evarin fearfully, the aishan lets out a sharp yelp from its oversized maw. - CLENCH Bug Extra space between its and fur bug Nothing out of the ordinary. The wolf would have an oversized maw. That's fine.

Evarin glances over at the aishan and inclines his head slightly. The aishan licks its lips, causing a small bit of drool pooling in its mouth to spill onto the ground. An acrid odor wafts up from where it landed, and the aishan begins panting heavily. - GLANCE This one is likely another no-go. Why I would argue otherwise is that the Verlok when illusioned can still molt, dropping verlok features. This is the same concept, the wolf can still drool acid even when a wolf. There is a precedent, Oscuro.

[Latrinsorm]

When Evarin lowers the sovyn without pouring it, the sovyn slowly calms down again.Teehee!

[Fallen]

He fixed that literally seconds after I posted it.

[Fallen]

We are working with Oscuro to try to get more moved over to the Illusioned demon side of the house. Here is some good news from Oscuro!
----

For the aishan, CLENCH, STARE, SNAP, and GLANCE all now have special messaging while illusioned. GAZE now uses the default verb messaging while illusioned. RUB is still prohibited while illusioned. This was the first demon I updated, so I don't think I was being as generous w/ writing additional illusioned messaging like I was w/ the others, so here it is.

As for verloks and molting, this was removed when they're illusioned. If they did that, the illusion would essentially be compromised. All current messaging for demons while illusioned should not give hints as to their demonic origin, but rather, should be mundane versions thereof to fool the onlooker. This is exactly why shien gnolls do "aerobics." It's the illusioned version of them reforming body parts in other locations.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Cleric/Empath Team

[Fallen]

Care of Sereg from the officials board.
----
Here is the messaging for the abyran'sa. I think I got all of them.

Illusioned idle messages

A robed figure paces around the room.

The robes surrounding a figure suddenly billow.

A robed figure slinks backward as it draws its arms closely to itself.

The bottom of the figure's robes flutter slightly.

A robed figure gazes upward toward the ceiling for a moment. (inside version)
A robed figure gazes upward toward the heavens for a moment. (outside version)

A robed figure slowly scans the area, searching for threats.

The hood of a robed figure seems to ripple a bit. Maybe it was a breeze?

A robed figure shifts its weight.

A robed figure stands motionless for a time.

A robed figure stares forward at nothing in particular.

Unillusioned idle messages

An anfractuous deep green abyran'sa stands completely still nearby, its hauntingly humanoid face a mask void of all expression.

The abyran'sa appears wary, drawn back and ready to strike as it quietly rebukes anyone nearby with eerily sibilant speech.

The abyran'sa whips its tail about itself in a menacing fashion, clearly ready to slap at anything that comes within range.

The abyran'sa raises outstretched arms towards the ceiling as its serpentine chant rises in a crescendo, perhaps calling on the assistance of a god.

A lean-bodied deep indigo abyran'sa slinks quietly about you, all the while watching you from the corners of its round, unblinking eyes.

An abyran'sa glides around in slow circles, its gaze scanning the nearby area for threats.

A lean-bodied deep indigo abyran'sa's tail curls sinuously about its body in a defensive manner, its gleaming pupil-less eyes watching you with obvious distaste.

The abyran'sa continues to eye you coldly as it drags its gleaming claws repeatedly across the ground, creating an ear-piercing grinding noise.

The finger-like protrusions atop the abyran'sa's head move about furiously as it stares dangerously.

And the interactive messages. These only work when unillusioned.

>point abyran
You crook your finger meaningfully at the abyran'sa. Its serpentine face registers a brief flash of hatred before it approaches and draws up before you with its eyes averted in a show of humility.

>push abyran
You push an outstretched hand towards the ground in front of the smoky amber abyran'sa. It slowly and begrudgingly lowers itself into a prone position, glaring at you with unmistakable loathing.

\>slap abyran
You step forward and give the abyran'sa a stinging backhanded slap across the face. It draws quickly backwards, balancing on the tip of its tail and hissing warnings at you in a harsh alien tongue.

>wave abyran
You wave your hand across the abyran'sa's form. It emits a short hiss and begins to change colors, blending into the nearby surroundings with uncanny effectiveness.

>snap abyran
You snap your fingers briskly at the abyran'sa. It takes up a clearly guarded posture, claws and tail swinging easily about its compressed form.

[Fallen]

Abyran, unfortunately, have 1 messaging that could fit into their illusioned form. Push. I cannot find a single message for Igaisha or whatever. I've tried about 30 verbs.

[radamanthys]

Wait, you have to train alchemy to progress illusions? Sounds like the Sorcerer guild is more of a "bend you over the table and have its way with you" kinda establishment.

All the more reason that demon use should be legalized. Someone should suggest it to one of the GMs... it could make an interesting, easy and somewhat open-and-shut storyline.

[Fallen]

The way I would see the compromise working is that Ta'Illistim and Ta'Vaalor find out about illusions, and make even an illusioned demon a crime in the city. In a response, BLAH happens, and all the other cities decide to allow sorcerers permits to keep their demons within town walls.

It has been suggested many times to ease the restrictions on demons. Apparently, the spell is so awesome that all those alchemy/illusions ranks, as well as the constant threat of being arrested is justified to off-set the earth shattering power that these creatures bring about.

I am working with a few others that will come up with an idle script which will keep your demon's duration, AND the illusion refreshed up until the point you bell out. This wont help those that like staying IG 24-7, but it should help others with going AFK until they bell and not get arrested while on a super node.

----
Some general tips for illusioned demons

The SENSE verb, when used with demons tells you how many minutes you have left on the illusion down to the minute. 31 minutes is the max.

You can refresh your demon's illusion without dropping it for the cost of 1 mana. This allows you to refresh your illusion without ever dropping it. You just type Illusion demon (My demon).

The vakra rune refreshes your demon's base duration. I would suggest writing a macro that rummages for the vakra rune, rubs it, then stows it in the container of your choice. Perhaps add it to whatever macro or script that brings you back from your hunting ground.

[radamanthys]

I don't have an open account... someone should put that idea into a GMs head. Thing is... if Illistim and Vaalor are totally banned, and the rest are permitted, then what use would illusions be at all?

I think: keep the illusions for EN, open WL and co., keep the permits to the dwarves.

Sounds like a nice script... but I hate band-aid patches to things that are easily changable to the developers. It's stupid that it's banned basically worldwide.

Demons don't even really have an impact on other players... so our fun is suffering to appease, well, NPCs. That's lame.

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, why try to make an immersive RP environment? Everything should be decided based on what is most convenient for whichever player base is currently most vocal.

[TheWitch]

This has very little to do with "convenience" and everything to do with making a level 25 spell more useful to the profession that uses it.

Never mind this is a goddamn GAME, and should be fun. Which only a few seem to find the use of 725 fun.

When you consider all the downsides to 725, the upsides start to truly pale in comparison.

[radamanthys]

Yea, it's a game. Making a utility spell less able to be utilized doesn't make the game more fun, nor does it add to the roleplay environment.

However, my point was that the sorcerer characters should do something about it- it's pretty stupid on the roleplay side of things to have this in place in some areas. It's understandable in the ENs, but not necessarily on the other side of the hills.

[TheWitch]

And just because I don't trash every single thing GMs come out with that doesn't make me UBER doesn't make me a fan boy.

The issue lies in the fact that sorcerers, in general, aren't "uber" at much anymore besides creating screen scroll. We used to be over-uber. Now we just make a lot of noise and look like a lot of gaypants with a bunch of dorky parlor tricks.

Which, Necro, I know you <3.

Some of us, on the other hand, would like some true power, not a bunch of fluff and nonsense, be worked into more of our spells.

[radamanthys]

Plink. plink. plink. plink. plink.


Plink.

[Latrinsorm]

Making a utility spell less able to be utilized doesn't make the game more fun, nor does it add to the roleplay environment. One of the best things about GS is you don't have "utility spell". You have "summon demon", and that carries baggage. You're from upstate NY (I think), would you say rural areas tend to be more welcoming of the bizarre and arcane or no? The human empire is founded on xenophobia for pete's sake, why would they make an exception for beings from another plane of existence when they generally don't for beings with slightly pointier ears?
When you consider all the downsides to 725, the upsides start to truly pale in comparison.So campaign for more upsides. The act of getting rid of the downsides has downsides.

[radamanthys]

Aye, I definitely agree with you. I understand wholeheartedly why they banned them when they first were introduced. That makes perfect sense to me. However, it's been long enough without incident, and I'm sure the human PTB could use a bit of... convincing.

I'm just saying that it would behoove the sorcerers of the Landing and such to RP out some sort of plan to change the rule. I'm sure it could be done. And I bet it works better than griping on a messageboard, too.

On the OOC end, it's annoying that it's nigh unusable in its current form to the majority of sorcerers. This is not an RP-only game... if there was no mechanical significance to anything, then fine. But at this point, someone worked hard to create a decent spell that's used far too rarely. This is a profession defining-spell, but there's a massive shitpile in the way of using it. They should either make illusions much easier (especially for lower leveled characters, it would cause insanity for anyone less than 40 to try and master), or lift the restriction some.

No other class has such limits on any of their abilities, afaik, hence the general malcontent. It wouldn't be as big a deal, but this is just one of all of our higher tiered spells that are annoyingly complicated. Sorcerers seem to be getting the business end of the "lets make it harder" stick.

[Necromancer]

I've often wondered to what extent the sorcery self-perception of uberness has always been directly linked to the inability of clerics and empaths to hunt effectively spell lists. It sort of tossed sorcerers into some crisis of identity when they weren't one of two pures with the ability to hunt exclusively with their magic.

Unfortunately it was never a fair standard, and it's a great thing that it is no longer the case. Sorcerers have, sadly, not managed to change their old rubric. We are uber because we have more attack spells on our primary spell list and have a versatility unknown to most pures. We have the most powerful direct damage spell (that can be used in combat- 525 is great...so long as you're not trying to use it) on our list and our highest level attack spell has more crit cycles than any other CS-based spell.

We have to learn to be okay with that. The whole "plink" (Not to pick on you Rad) critique, is really somewhat irksome to me. It's based mostly on a comparison to ambushers. Low level sorcerers may 'plink' away, but so do low level clerics and empaths. And "plinking" means having to cast more than one spell to kill- which isn't exactly tear-jerking. High level sorcerers are no more required to 'plink' away than high level ambushers. There is very little 'plinking' in OTF, the Temples, the Towers, the Stronghold, etc. unless you choose to do so for mana reasons. 719 becomes a one-stop attack for a majority of what is encountered, and 720 is always available to obliterate what 719 cannot.

And no other pure can boast the level of disablers we have. Part of why we do and can 'plink' (itself an unrecognized luxury) is because of our combat spell list.

As such, I remain unmoved by the little Rheisia voice in our heads that states that having to cast 702 3 times from guarded (as opposed to being able to do so) is problematic.

[crb]

We are uber because we have more attack spells on our primary spell list

Quantity != quality.



a versatility unknown to most pures
Perhaps, a versatility unknown to say, clerics and empaths, I'll buy that. Wizards are just as versatile though, and got quite a few perks we lack (not that we need the same perks, but ya, some perks would be nice). For instance, look at all the nice utility wizards have. Strength, haste, rapidfire. Not that I want those things, but maybe we could get some curse buffs (http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2007/12/08/curse-buffs/).



We have the most powerful direct damage spell (that can be used in combat- 525 is great...so long as you're not trying to use it)

I can only assume you're talking about FI, not open implosion, since open implosion would be listed with 525 I think. FI is highly level based, mana intensive, erratic, and of course the treasure issue. In the end it is a manuever attack with hidden rolls and a huge level modifier, not unlike spike thorn or boil earth in kill potential, just maybe a little grander in the messaging. Everyone remembers the instant vaporizations of the younger targets, but they soon forget the 10 damage hits when you use it on something older.




and our highest level attack spell has more crit cycles than any other CS-based spell.

Honestly, I'd rather have 1106 than DC. You can call me a hairless albino nazi monkey for having that opinion, but it is my opinion, and I do believe I'm entitled to it.

[Necromancer]

Remember Kyle, there are no stupid questions....

Wizards are the other pure class with versatility in attacks, but that doesn't diminish our offensive capabilities. No other profession has the *obsession* with beinng better at everything combat-related a vocal group of players have brought to sorcery.

Quantity is incredibly valuable, and not everything boils down to post-cap game spell comparisons. To put it bluntly, how many of us are actively playing level 90+ sorcerers?

1106 At 90+ Envy is not an acceptable space to launch a systemic critique of the profession.

[Fallen]

Things sorcerers could use:

A stronger immediate CS-based Direct damage spell for 10-15 mana. The spell would the influenced by lores and or mana controls. I suggest the 713 slot.

A mass instant damage CS based spell, lore tie ins if applicable.

A AS/DS bolt spell with secondary effects, 716 being a candidate for having a CS portion, or an AS portion at higher levels.

[Necromancer]

I'd be okay with a 716 mass CS spell, but how do you balance it so that it's worth the mana but not better than 719? Sort of a difficult situation.

[Fallen]

It obviously wouldn't have the crit potential of 719.

[TheWitch]

I'm loathe to have this conversation with you over here, too, Jesse, but.

There have been three, at this point, low level sorcerers post in that thread on the officials - one that's played by a notorious sorcerer-hater - confirming my belief that while we near the cap and beyond are totally fine, they are not.

Do whatever the hell you want to 716, 713, etc. A low level sorcerer can't use those spells. They don't have the mana. They don't have the mana to plink away with 702 and 705 is even a luxury. So, they have to haul around imbeddables and orbs? What other class does that? I certainly didn't with my wizard who I got so friggen bored with by level 10, that's where she'll stay till the servers shut down. Why bored? Too easy.

If, by this point, you haven't wrapped your mind around the fact that my issues with our profession do not really pertain to the playability or power level of me or you or Virilneus or Evarin, I really don't know what else to say.

:club:

The issues I have with 725 are not just my issues, they seem pretty universal, except you. Your incessant cheerleading is really .... offputting. It's like you've been brainwashed.

[crb]

Remember Kyle, there are no stupid questions....

Wizards are the other pure class with versatility in attacks, but that doesn't diminish our offensive capabilities. No other profession has the *obsession* with beinng better at everything combat-related a vocal group of players have brought to sorcery.

Quantity is incredibly valuable, and not everything boils down to post-cap game spell comparisons. To put it bluntly, how many of us are actively playing level 90+ sorcerers?

1106 At 90+ Envy is not an acceptable space to launch a systemic critique of the profession.


Quantity is incredibly valuable,

Really, how many disabler or DOT spells does one need before it gets redundant?



1106 At 90+ Envy is not an acceptable space to launch a systemic critique of the profession.

It is lucky I only have a couple dozen other ideas for improvements.

[radamanthys]

Yea, Rada's 40, and mana is still a problem. The TD's are kinda high for like levelled critters, so they ward pretty often, wasting mana, as well. So low damage + decent chance of failure = long time to kill a critter... then mana runs out. It's even worse, cuz he's Voln. No wracking, and you can't sacrifice undead, or blood burst them.

As a lower-level sorcerer, I wholeheartedly agree with Rheisia.

[Latrinsorm]

What other class does that?Empaths. This may have gotten better with Harm, but it was a problem for a long time.

Doesn't every pure profession recommend the "sword and board for 30 days" routine?

[Eoghain]

Now we just make a lot of noise and look like a lot of gaypants with a bunch of dorky parlor tricks.



You leave Diesel jeans out of this Rheisia. They make my ass look great.

[Eoghain]

Here's something I always wondered about, and maybe someone can clarify. When I hunt with Clerics and Empaths, the TD of the critters is lower for them than for me. I was told that it was because we had access to 425. So I ask, wtf is the point of that spell for Sorcerers? We get +13(ish) CS, and we get a +20(ish) TD to match it? Why?

[TheWitch]

Empaths. This may have gotten better with Harm, but it was a problem for a long time. - Latrinsorm


Yes, but. The also have the option to sit on their flat asses and heal. There is no comparable skill available for sorcerers. Hunt. That's it.

Radamanthys, if you stick it out another five or so levels, you'll come into your own. Which is, I think, a ridiculously high level for a player to have to play to before they reach a point where they don't feel like they suck. But hey. I'm sure Mr. Cheerleader will tell you to RP your way around that too.

Eog, I don't want to know about your gaypants. Seriously.
RE, the CS/TD thing, was their CS consistent with yours? It's usually lower, so the ratio ends up fairly close. However, you are right, the bar is higher for sorcerers in general as far as warding. The why of that, escapes me, but I'm sure it has something to do with balance.

[875000]

However, you are right, the bar is higher for sorcerers in general as far as warding. The why of that, escapes me, but I'm sure it has something to do with balance.

Oh, I can explain that. It is a legacy issue.

Traditionally, sorcerer spells dealt more criticals and damage than spells of comperable levels. The old Mana Disrupt, for instance, had a relatively low critical threshhold. Evil Eye is able to kill things on any endroll that is 200+. Dark Catalyst has some effect that is linked to warding failure -- I can't quite remember what it is. There is a bit more nuance and history to this, but I'll spare you the details unless you want me to send you a private message.

The net effect is that warding levels were balanced against the outlier spells, to keep those outliers from being used to rack up a series of quick, easy kills. If a creature required a roll of 40+ in order to hit, it is harder to for the creature to experience a warding failure where it will receive a rank 9 critical injury or an instant death from Evil Eye. The other part of the idea was that a high failure rate for offensive spells was was not necessarily a bad thing for sorcerers because it gave them more time in front a creature in general and pushed things more towards an attrition model than (i.e., plinking) than a critical one (i.e., ambushing).

When the spells were redesigned and new ones were dropped into open spell slots, some of the creature TD's did drop to reflect this. Some of the newer creatures also have TD's to reflect this. But it is/was too difficult and time consuming of a task to do a creature by creature assessment of whether the warding level were appropriate, so things were never really fully balanced.

Net effect -- a number of creature's TD's are out of whack. This is most evident in the mid-levels (most of the creatures here are legacy ones), but it occassionally crops up in some of the more elder ones depending on whether the creature designer is well versed on the way sorcerer spells work and what amount of time he/she determines a sorcerer needs to stand in front of a creature for the fight to be really considered an attrition based one.

[Necromancer]

Also, 425 was meant to increase Sorcery CS ROI to allow the CS and TDs to outpace properly.

And Rheisia, if you really think that Sorcerers with their 2 CS primary attack spell at lower levels are hurting for mana more than Empaths, Clerics, and Wizards (who can't wrack with a reliable bolt AS), you're cracked (I mean this in the nicest way).

That's why on the boards I said it was a general game development issue. Hey, I'm with you, I think it's bad legacy game dev to assume that the beginning life of a pure is supposed to be hard. I don't see any reason why there should be such severe mana restriction problems. Mana was an issue with Quert up until his 40s when one day I woke up and suddenly had all of the mana I needed. But given how few characters get up to 50, it makes you wonder what the point is.

But that's not a sorcery-related problem. We've got it better than the other pure professions in that regard, even if it's not great.

[Fallen]

Just as a non-bitching head's up, Oscuro converted most of the Verlok's unillusioned scripts to work with the illusioned form of the demon, with more possible reviews to come. Go him.

[Latrinsorm]

The also have the option to sit on their flat asses and heal. There is no comparable skill available for sorcerers. Hunt. That's it.
Healing is incredibly inefficient, especially at the early levels (empaths can't even transfer all wounds until level 10). I feel quite confident in saying that sorcs hunting with a handaxe level substantially faster than strict healing empaths. It's certainly fair to say that sorcerers shouldn't have to melee hunt... but it's equally fair to say that empaths shouldn't have to heal.

[TheWitch]

<<I feel quite confident in saying that sorcs hunting with a handaxe level substantially faster than strict healing empaths. It's certainly fair to say that sorcerers shouldn't have to melee hunt... but it's equally fair to say that empaths shouldn't have to heal.>>

If the difference between a pure swinging a handaxe and an empath doing what a huge chunk of their professional spell list is dedicated to doing isn't readily apparent....I'm at a loss.

Clerics and empaths have an alternative experience mode, that maybe below level 10 or 18 or whatever the hell isn't perfection, but it exists.

Jesse, call it whatever you want - legacy dev issue, whatever. It is an issue.

[875000]

Healing is incredibly inefficient, especially at the early levels (empaths can't even transfer all wounds until level 10). I feel quite confident in saying that sorcs hunting with a handaxe level substantially faster than strict healing empaths. It's certainly fair to say that sorcerers shouldn't have to melee hunt... but it's equally fair to say that empaths shouldn't have to heal.

And I am also certain that Empaths can hunt equally as well as a Sorcerer with a handaxe at these levels, and then return to town and heal in relative safety while they absorb experience from both hunting and healing.

Given the lessened risk and additional experience, the Empath levels faster.

[Latrinsorm]

This is an honest question: have you guys actually tried healing at low (10-) levels?
Clerics and empaths have an alternative experience mode, that maybe below level 10 or 18 or whatever the hell isn't perfection, but it exists.Everyone has alternative experience modes and everything is crappy before level 15. Try being a warrior without real armor, maneuvers, or redux (if you can even call that being a warrior).

I'd also like to point out that describing 9 of 23 spells as "a huge chunk" is a bit hyperbolic.

.

That you apparently can't make the case for sorcerers being underpowered without making nebulous references to other classes says enough.

[875000]

This is an honest question: have you guys actually tried healing at low (10-) levels?

Yes. And what I basically did was hunt with a weapon and then, when my head was reasonably full, returned back and healed people while I was burning off the hunting experience, like I described.

It made advancement fast because I absorbed experience when fried longer.


Everyone has alternative experience modes and everything is crappy before level 15.

And for sorcerers and professions like warriors, those would be ...?


Try being a warrior without real armor, maneuvers, or redux (if you can even call that being a warrior).

My main character is a rogue. I hunted with a one handed weapon, without any armor, without redux, without usable maneuvers, without spells, and without a shield for 20 or so levels. Ambushing does not work consistently well during this time period, either. During that time, I also did not pick boxes and did not rely on the Adventurer's Guild.

Was it frustrating at times? Yes.

Was it as frustrating as playing my sorcerer who was built according to reccomended training plans? No.

At 24 the Rogue really started to come into his own despite an odd training plan. The sorcerer? Still struggling.

Do I believe that rogues are overpowered? Not in the slightest.



That you apparently can't make the case for sorcerers being underpowered without making nebulous references to other classes says enough.

You never asked for that -- from me at least -- so I did not bother going there. You just cited an example and I responded in kind. My example was pretty specific too.

An empath will advance faster than a sorcerer at lower levels, assuming both players makes reasonable use of their abilities. The reason: during the early levels (you cited under 10) the empath and the sorcerer have similar constraints. The empath, though, has additional options to avoid or mitigate the constraints.

[Necromancer]

You picked level 24 to say the sorcerer still struggles, but 3 levels from then when 425 kicks in, they're not. And, while in the 20's Querthose was in GSIII, FM meant no struggling. You could sit in defensive all day with no risk to yourself and simply watch FM tear away at things. Hardly 'struggle'. Though slower than 702'ing away. Meanwhile you're basically immune to all spells, there are rarely any maneuvers to worry about ,etc. You're slower but don't die.

The point is you can take any patch of the level range and pick up on a particular lens and make a complaint. Talk about how FM takes a while (for instance) and yet forget to bring up that you were totally safe the entire time. Talk about how bad mana issues are at 35 but forget to mention that your spells are still cheaper than most comparable spells- particularly disabling spells and primary damage spells.


And Rheisia, you keep pointing to this low level pure situation as something specific to sorcery, and that's why I personally rarely find myself agreeing iwth you. You approach it from a "Oh X profession has it better than we do!" stance, but the truth is they don't. So if there's a problem there, it's in similarity and not in difference.

[Latrinsorm]

And for sorcerers and professions like warriors, those would be ...?Throwing away garbage! :D

Locksmithing, adv guild, etc.
Was it frustrating at times? Yes.

Was it as frustrating as playing my sorcerer who was built according to reccomended training plans? No.And it'll be easier later on with a sorcerer. Balance! :)
The reason: during the early levels (you cited under 10) the empath and the sorcerer have similar constraints.I'd say the 400s are at an advantage over the 200s in that situation, at least on the level of the piddly healing gains one can make at those levels.

I'm surprised you seem to have such a high opinion of healing exp. As the player of an empath who advanced solely by healing from 2 (or wherever the n00b quests gets you to), it wasn't until past title that healing was even somewhat reliable as a means of exp gain.

[Halstein]

I'm surprised you seem to have such a high opinion of healing exp. As the player of an empath who advanced solely by healing from 2 (or wherever the n00b quests gets you to), it wasn't until past title that healing was even somewhat reliable as a means of exp gain.

I found healing xp to be sufficient during prime hours from 7-20. Prior to 7 I stuck with rats so couldn't say, though I imagine blood alone would be difficult.

I think it's fair to say any pure is difficult prior to 10 if you attempt to utilize your class skills instead of rats and then utilizing the 30 day migration.

[875000]

You picked level 24 to say the sorcerer still struggles, but 3 levels from then when 425 kicks in, they're not.

When you mentioned 425 earlier, and I decided to let it pass because I did not want to bog the discussion down in the nuances of what happened with TD's.

Bit of history though. The Sorcerer CS bonus was rolled in during GSIII by Cypher. During that period, Gemstone IV staff were less organized and less coordinated. Banthis oversaw everything. Aephir was in charge of creatures. Romulus hadn't really been assigned Sorcerers yet. Other GM's could make certain changes to spells and creatures without getting approval from Banthis or one another. Things happened faster, but on the whole were chaotic.

The long and the short of it was that Cypher coded 425 changes without consulting Banthis or Aephir, and then dropped it into the system. Neither of Banthis nor Aephir were particularly pleased about the situation because no one considered balance impacts -- they even alluded to it publically on the AOL boards. A few weeks later, Aephir made an assumption of when sorcerers and wizards would be likely to train in 425 and then had raised creature TD's to a level where the bonus from 425 were offset by the rise. He was primary concerned about how a rise of sorcerer TD's would effect 3 spells at the time: Mana Disrupt, Evil Eye (which had a TD pushdown modifier), and Dark Catalyst (which also still had a TD pushdown modifier). Net effect: somewhere between 24 and 30 for sorcerer there was no real bonus from 425 as creature's TD's were already adjusted to offset the initial and the scaling bonus.


Since then creature's sorcerer TD's have fallen -- particularly when we moved to GSIV. However, that design principle I explained (netting out the bonus of 425) carried on til today, which is why I always laugh when someone tries to convince me that 425 is a really great addition to sorcerer's CS. Unless you try to game the system by adopting a very unique training path, the advantage is factored out.



And, while in the 20's Querthose was in GSIII, FM meant no struggling. You could sit in defensive all day with no risk to yourself and simply watch FM tear away at things.

We were not discussing the old GSIII days where, I will also mention, the spell went through several iterations of power and rebalancing relating to mana cost, training requirements, and even damage. To paraphrase you from an earlier thread with regards to imbalances in GSIII, "get over it." :)


Hardly 'struggle'. Though slower than 702'ing away. Meanwhile you're basically immune to all spells, there are rarely any maneuvers to worry about ,etc. You're slower but don't die.

Deaths are not much an time impediment to advancing if your normal rate of advancement outstrips the inconvienence of being a ghost and the recovery time after being raised. I've been able to do that with one square profession and two other pures.

Empath's who soley heal have the best defense in the game, by your argument: town walls that keep most wandering creatures and bodies of other adventurers to act as cannon fodder when an invasion happens to breach the game.

Truth to tell, I think some of the frustration factor with sorcerers is that a player has to sit through long iterations of missing and plinking away (miss, plink, plink, miss, plink, plink, creature death) before seeing a payoff, while other professions see success fast (ambush leg, ambush head, creature death). Selection bias means the misses and low damage results tend to sting more in people's minds.


The point is you can take any patch of the level range and pick up on a particular lens and make a complaint. Talk about how FM takes a while (for instance) and yet forget to bring up that you were totally safe the entire time. Talk about how bad mana issues are at 35 but forget to mention that your spells are still cheaper than most comparable spells- particularly disabling spells and primary damage spells.

When? During the good old days of GSIII?

If you are referring to today, please recall that several years ago the damage rate of sorcerer spells like Mana Disrupt was rebalanced so the critical threshholds were raised and amount of damage dealt was set comperable to other damage spells on profession base lists at like level.

More recently, spells were added to other lists that eluded that paradigm. I believe you argued either here or somewhere else that the players of sorcerers just needed to get over the fact that they no longer had the most destructive spell under level 10 on a spell list.

The cost efficiency of disabling spells? I can buy that. In fact I make that argument myself from time to time. However, the way things are designed is that most disabling spells won't kill a creature -- which means disabling spells are a set-up that actually adds to the mana cost of trying to dispatch a creature.

Sure, once you hit somewhere around 45, 50 or so mana fades away as a concern. However the case you keep trying to make is framed through the experiences of someone who has not dealt with the comparitive situation today or transposes the lack of problems a sorcerer has at mid to late game to the experiences on someone who is simply not there yet.


And Rheisia, you keep pointing to this low level pure situation as something specific to sorcery, and that's why I personally rarely find myself agreeing iwth you. You approach it from a "Oh X profession has it better than we do!" stance, but the truth is they don't. So if there's a problem there, it's in similarity and not in difference.

One of Rheisia's points I believe is that other professions have additional options that allow them to get around or mitigate this low level pure situation. That is something that you try to avoid addressing every time she or someone else brings it up. You hone in on the similarities between two professions, and then try to dismiss or ignore the differences that people are raising. On a few specific issues, you are right. However, you miss the larger picture because you are selective in considering all of the issues.


Throwing away garbage! :D

Locksmithing, adv guild, etc.

You are kidding me, right? Right?

1. None of those are exclusive to a profession. An empath has all of these things and and can then heal when he or does not find a task to his or her liking. Advantage: empath.
2. Locksmithing is not an efficient practice, nor widely utilized, for warriors and sorcerers.
3. Most adventurer guild tasks involve combat (i.e., kill X number of creatures, kill X number of creatures and then something will appear that you have to bring back to town). A few allow you to avoid combat by paying someone off, but you need to have money in order to buy something from someone else.


I'd say the 400s are at an advantage over the 200s in that situation, at least on the level of the piddly healing gains one can make at those levels.

You are sidestepping the point. Sure, if I play one character inefficienciently and the other efficiently, the efficient character will appear more efficient.

However in the age range you mentioned, the Empath can hunt just as well as the sorcerer or better, and then heal and gobble up additional experience and absorb it at a faster rate due to being fried longer. That is a useful advantage for advancement.


I'm surprised you seem to have such a high opinion of healing exp. As the player of an empath who advanced solely by healing from 2 (or wherever the n00b quests gets you to), it wasn't until past title that healing was even somewhat reliable as a means of exp gain.

Fair enough. I have a high opinion of it when it is used in a way that leverages its advantages. I do not think it is a "golden ticket." However, I do believe it opens up options that simply are not there for others. Combine that with the things that are baselined or balanced across most professions like hunting, it results in a net advantage for an empath.

That's the thing that used to drive me nuts about balance discussions. When determining balance, GM's factor in somethings and refuse to consider others, even though all of them affect rates of advancement.

I wouldn't advise someone to use healing exclusively from 2-6 or even up to about 8 or 9, just as I would not advise a sorcerer to try to hunt exclusively with his or her spells. What I would tell young empaths is to do what I did: hunt and then heal as you are trying to absorb experience in the safety of town.

[Drew]

Excellent post 875000. I enjoy those bits of history and lore from the game, but I'm always shocked how people like you and Krakii can remember them. I lived through a lot of what you are describing and it's all hazy to me. Anyway, just wanted to mention I liked the history. I'd really love to see someone put together a kind of comprehensive behind the scenes history for things like this to be saved somewhere.

[Necromancer]

While I'm not going play-by-play, I'll hit a few.

1. I'm well aware of the history of 425, incidentally. But the role of 425 changed with the move to GSIV as you pointed out. (incidentally, things weren't as bleak as you paint them: the effective boost from 425 was reduced with TD adjustment not wholly negated) What 425 largely does is increase sorcery CS ROI, which is why it heralds a rapid outpacing of creature TD. More to the point, getting 425 is immediate relief because creatures have TDs that are adjusted for the CS boost it provides, and so the moment you get it you find yourself reaping the benefits of that conpetative advantage. So save the laughter.

In terms of the alternate exp gain, it's rather unconvincing. Empaths can heal for exp yet rarely can count on a full mind during their early healing days. Rogues cannot reliably open even level 1-5 boxes until after level 6 (not a big market for that in most areas), and clerics cannot raise until 18, and they often cannot compete wirh older clerics who have 225 for bodies. If we're talking lower level characters, alternate exp gain isn't the viable exp source it's being made out to be. And most importantly, the incredibly low cost of 702, particularly with its damage potential, is part of the balance, not problematic to it. Why do you think they justified Empaths having no attack spells below level six prior to Harm?

Things just aren't that simple.

[875000]

(incidentally, things weren't as bleak as you paint them: the effective boost from 425 was reduced with TD adjustment not wholly negated)

For the most part it was that bleak. After Romulus became the sorcerer guru, he frequently complained about it and at one point even looked into getting the sorcerer CS benefits from 425 yanked. He was told no and that we’d all just have to live with it.

There were ways to get around it, but those were either very short term or required steep trade-offs. There was a certain age range very early where the a few people thought it was possible to get 425 ahead of when the average creature at the specified age range had an offsetting TD. That could sustain people a few levels, but then they would eventually hit the point where it was assumed everyone had the spell. One also could have overtrained in sorcerer spells and outpaced the rate of expected CS increase for 425 (and thus creature TD’s); problem there was that was very expensive training point wise or it meant forgoing certain spells on minor lists. Or, one could have found a rare type of creature with TD’s low for a sorcerer (sorcerer bait) and focused on just hunting them. This meant easy hunting for around 4 or 5 levels, but it also meant you were basically hunting the exact same creature over and over again.


More to the point, getting 425 is immediate relief because creatures have TDs that are adjusted for the CS boost it provides, and so the moment you get it you find yourself reaping the benefits of that conpetative advantage. So save the laughter.

That is in no way an advantage. It’s just mitigation. At a certain point creatures TD’s are set with the idea in mind that a character will have 425 up. For most people, all 425 does is make certain that you keep pace with creature TD changes. If 425 did not exist, creatures’ TD’s would be lower across the board and you would still have the same probability to hit as today. The only difference is that you would save 25 mana.

The only two things that 425 does, really, then is require someone to spend more mana before a hunt and requires that same person to spend mana during a hunt if it is dispelled or the duration runs out. It acts as a mana sink.


What 425 largely does is increase sorcery CS ROI, which is why it heralds a rapid outpacing of creature TD.

Not really. Creature TD versus caster CS is always kept within a certain range. The reason for this is that higher success rolls tend to produce things like more damage and critical hits. Because sorcerers moved to an attrition model, keeping things within that success range is important – otherwise they can sidestep the model and get rapid kills with spells like Evil Eye. Sidestepping the model is bad for balancing sorcerers because they have a different risk profile than other professions, and they need to be in front of the creature longer to give it more of a fighting chance.

In order to balance things, all the GM’s need to do is assume that a sorcerer (or Wizard – this also applies to them too) will learn 425 at a certain level. That determines the age of creatures where a TD hike needs to occur in order to offset the initial bonus. After that, all a GM has to do is figure out – or rather estimate -- the number of Minor Elemental ranks the average sorcerer picks up per level and then increase creature TD’s proportionally.

If a sorcerer wants to gain an advantage over his or her peers, he or she needs to outpace the rate of TD increases with CS gains by training in more sorcerer spells or by acquiring Minor Elemental spells at a faster rate than expected.

On last note: at a certain point sorcerers probability to hit does improve from the earlier levels. However, it is important to understand this has absolutely nothing to do with 425 affected sorcerer CS (if the GM's wanted an increased success rate, they could just adjust TD's to produce that rate). Rather, this is the point where it is expected that sorcerers will need to use more disabling spells on a creature (i.e., to keep from getting hit with maneuver attacks, avoid spells like fire cloud, etc.). Disablers need to land to mitigate creature risk. To keep spells like Mana Disrupt for doing too much damage due to the increased range of success, creature health is increased. Why is all of these factors significant? Because that means that sorcerers will have to start spending more mana per kill. Which is a contributing factor during the early to mid levels’ mana shortages.

[875000]

Excellent post 875000. I enjoy those bits of history and lore from the game, but I'm always shocked how people like you and Krakii can remember them. I lived through a lot of what you are describing and it's all hazy to me. Anyway, just wanted to mention I liked the history. I'd really love to see someone put together a kind of comprehensive behind the scenes history for things like this to be saved somewhere.

Thanks! Much appreciated. :)

I've always toyed with the notion of saving GM postings on a subject in a seperate file. With turnover of GS staff and the player base, alot of these hidden gems and discoveries get forgotten.

[Latrinsorm]

Truth to tell, I think some of the frustration factor with sorcerers is that a player has to sit through long iterations of missing and plinking away (miss, plink, plink, miss, plink, plink, creature death) before seeing a payoff, while other professions see success fast (ambush leg, ambush head, creature death). Selection bias means the misses and low damage results tend to sting more in people's minds.It's very surreal for me to hear a complaint often voiced by warriors voiced by a sorcerer player.
You are kidding me, right? Right?Not at all. Sorcerers have an advantage in locksmithing (over empaths) due to having the 400s. I totally agree that locksmithing is inefficient at earlier levels; to quote, "everything is crappy before level 15".
the Empath can hunt just as well as the sorcerer or betterI'd say this is exactly my point: no they can't. You talk about leveraging healing, why don't you leverage the 400s to make hunting 3% easier?

My point in a broader sense is that empaths are not sorcerers that can heal. They're certainly similar in physical hunting prowess at early levels, but that does not make them the same. The only place where we disagree is that you appear to consider healing an overwhelming factor whereas I don't think it makes all others negligible.

[Fallen]

Just like with Scroll Infusion and sorcerers, empaths can use healing to put themselves way ahead of the curve. Some choose to do so, some don't.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm sure scroll infusion is just like healing in that it's not all that impressive when you first get it, so yes, I agree.

[Warriorbird]

Scroll Infusion is the most broken spell in the entire game.

[Asha]

Is it? Why?

[Fallen]

Because it makes other professions feel butthurt.

[TheWitch]

875K, thank you for your detailed recollection of these things that certain people are in denial over. I was around for most of this, but my four year hiatus during growing pains makes my memory incomplete. It's not all that complete about what I did yesterday, however, so ya know. heh.

My focus on sorcerers, particularily low level ones, is likely due to me having played a sorcerer as my preferred character, both back in the day and now, Genius Fanboy. This shouldn't come much of a surprise. And while I realize that sorcerers don't operate in a vaccuum, the issues surrounding the profession are unique to them in many ways. So pardon me if I don't jump up and down for the other professions, someone else can do that.

Obviously, all four of the pure classes have a relatively difficult time in the low levels compared to their square counterparts, who are expected to train in weapons. The warrior and rogue I rolled up were kicking rat ass at level 1. One swing. So, for that matter, was the wizard. The sorcerers, not so much.

Right now, I have my secondary sorcerer on a pretty straightforward runestaff build, the exception to that being training in FA and survival. And she sucks at level 35. Hunting her is a nightmare since I fixskilled her out of having a secondary attack in Voln Fu. Yea, I could stand around 710'ing everything and watching the screen scroll. Sure. What a friggen bore. Some us want a little more interaction with our hunting.

If she didn't have the FA and survival, her hunting issues would be lessened somewhat, either by having more spells and mana or having Voln Fu back. At level 35, do other pure classes have no room in their training plans for ancillary skills? Do they still need a secondary form of attack? I would say not, because at that point a cleric is raising handily and the empath can heal. Don't tell me they shouldn't be expected to heal. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than my sorcerer brawling.

I'm not sure anymore what the solution here is, but it does suck to feel neutered and ineffective until level 45.

[Asha]

At 35 my sorcerer was totally pwne. I don't get how yours having such a hard time has anything to do with the profession overall but more like your preferences of training path and hunting style.

[Warriorbird]

Sorcerors = GS easy mode. I think I never once had a single bit of difficulty hunting anything ever.

[TheWitch]

As I said, the training path including FA and survival are the issue. I'm aware of that.

What I'm also aware of is that at 35, my main didn't have the same problems. Because she had nothing but magical training. Even training purely magic, I felt like I was struggling with her mana-wise until around level 42-45, I forget exactly. After that, it was admittedly a walk in the proverbial park. I have never said that the issues I see for lower level sorcerers carry through all levels.

The point is, ancillary skills should be an option at level 35 - they certainly are for my rogue at the same level.

[Warriorbird]

Rogues are about the easiest class to have ancilliary skills on.

Bards? Paladins?

Certainly very tough to have any ancilliary skills.

[radamanthys]

I reopened this morning, just to give it another whirl. It took, on average, 6.5 successful casts to kill a hooded figure. Rada is actually 38, not 40. Hooded figures are 30 and 35.

That's the issue.

I'm not really sure how artisan experience (had just mastered fletching before I closed) is gonna come through, but it'll make this month a bit faster as far as levelling, I surmise. Thankfully.

[TheWitch]

Welcome back, first of all.

Second, this is exactly the issue, and I took this a step farther awhile back.

At cap, I went hunting in the Black Moor (which is where you should head to, by the way). I channeled empty handed from offensive both 702 and 705. Now, you would think that 60 levels, that's right, 60 levels over the target - using the spells to their maximum possible power, I would be killing everything in one shot.

No. Not the case.

How embarrasing, that I'm plinking on something 60 levels below me.

[Katt]

All classes seem to think one thing or another isn't fair. I just hope the GM's can stand against most the bitching otherwise everyone will get what they want and Gemstone will turn into an easy, dull, no challenge game.

Not that I don't agree some points brought up in this thread are valid and should be looked into.

[Asha]

We're very quickly getting back to how unfair GS is to sorcery.
Fallen, shut these people up plzThnx.

[Fallen]

The Elemental/Sorcery review will be done by Nilven, in which case most/all of these issues will be addressed. No announced date when it will begin, but it has been scheduled.

Thar.

[TheWitch]

Hmmm, I didn't hear a shut up in there. Perhaps he agrees with several of the issues here. Perhaps not. Far be it for me to put words in his mouth.

[Celephais]

I reopened this morning, just to give it another whirl. It took, on average, 6.5 successful casts to kill a hooded figure. Rada is actually 38, not 40. Hooded figures are 30 and 35.

That's the issue.

I'm not really sure how artisan experience (had just mastered fletching before I closed) is gonna come through, but it'll make this month a bit faster as far as levelling, I surmise. Thankfully.
6.5 casts of 702!?! That's pretty freaking sweet. Quite a few classes might not fair so well mana wise, and to be able to do so from guarded stance... I'm willing to bet they can't hit you can they?


Welcome back, first of all.

Second, this is exactly the issue, and I took this a step farther awhile back.

At cap, I went hunting in the Black Moor (which is where you should head to, by the way). I channeled empty handed from offensive both 702 and 705. Now, you would think that 60 levels, that's right, 60 levels over the target - using the spells to their maximum possible power, I would be killing everything in one shot.

No. Not the case.

How embarrasing, that I'm plinking on something 60 levels below me.
There are also plenty of other classes that are incapable of one-hit killing 60 levels below them when using such low level spells, infact I still bet you're killing them faster than any capped warrior.

[radamanthys]

Sweet. Nilven usually does cool things. He tends to like to make things a little too complicated... but it's all good.


By the way... how's the new 118 bolt spell? Worth the spirit summoning lore? It says "extremely flammable" on the thing... does the web dissolve with fire, or does it immolate someone who is webbed? A 111/118 combo would be interesting, then. AoE web, AoE fire. Hee hee.

[radamanthys]

Yea, they can. They dispel... an unspelled sorcerer is a dead sorcerer.

Many other classes can also 1 hit kill things that are older than they. I knew a 20's rogue who was hunting in the shadow valley (spelled up, of course), and one kick fu'ing spectral miners. It was pretty sweet. Sorta.

[Rathain]

Welcome back, first of all.

Second, this is exactly the issue, and I took this a step farther awhile back.

At cap, I went hunting in the Black Moor (which is where you should head to, by the way). I channeled empty handed from offensive both 702 and 705. Now, you would think that 60 levels, that's right, 60 levels over the target - using the spells to their maximum possible power, I would be killing everything in one shot.

No. Not the case.

How embarrasing, that I'm plinking on something 60 levels below me.

Why would you expect a 1 shot kill ? When expending 2 to 5 mana, other CS based spells will also fail to achieve a kill. 302 with infusions comes to mind as well, as they often failed to kill with one cast when the level differential was ~55 (with two empty hands and channeling in offensive). It sucks, but it's the way it is.

[BigWorm]

As the player of a rogue, I think that some of you have a mistaken perception about ambushing in GS4. Just like sorcerers, ambush was overpowered in GS3 (Neither were designed with level 160 characters in mind). However, since the change to GS4, and the change from the huge crit divisor adder to DS pushdown, ambushing is much more balanced. That rogue might kill most things in one shot, but when he misses, he's probably in trouble. Ambushing great for one-on-one, but not so awesome in a swarm.

[Fallen]

6.5 casts of 702!?! That's pretty freaking sweet. Quite a few classes might not fair so well mana wise, and to be able to do so from guarded stance... I'm willing to bet they can't hit you can they?


There are also plenty of other classes that are incapable of one-hit killing 60 levels below them when using such low level spells, infact I still bet you're killing them faster than any capped warrior.

Bull. Capped warriors can train in ambush, and just crit from the open most creatures in one hit.

[Latrinsorm]

The thing about open ambush is it doesn't force stance at all. I obviously didn't make it a habit to swing at things in stance d, but I'm pretty sure in the 40s they can muster 300+ without much trouble. To get a rank 9 versus even brig with a falchion requires a 350ish endroll; do capped warriors generally have an AS of 650+?

This, of course, is putting aside the fact that there are only about four weapon bases that can even generate a guaranteed kill due to crit type.

.

Now, if by "one-hit kill" we mean "after maneuvering", then yes, warriors can generally kill things 60 levels under them in one 14 second shot.

[Necromancer]

Plus a sorcerer with 60 levels over something is actually the only profession guaranteed a one-shot kill. Focused Implosion, provided they are not immune (all of four creatures or so are immune), will *always* kill at that level disparity. As will Evil Eye.

The violin here goes to...not sorcerers.

[Katt]

Even without a manuever attack my warrior had no problem with one hit kills from the open with even half the scouts in the barrier.

However, after playing a pure I will never go back to a swinger or a rogue/warrior. I have learned it is TONS better sucking at low levels than that lame TD that owns your ass when you get to the barrier or other high/capped area's.

[Stanley Burrell]

Even without a manuever attack my warrior had no problem with one hit kills from the open with even half the scouts in the barrier.

What sort of one hit kills?


However, after playing a pure I will never go back to a swinger or a rogue/warrior. I have learned it is TONS better sucking at low levels than that lame TD that owns your ass when you get to the barrier or other high/capped area's.

This is going to change and not just because I said so.

[Asha]

I have learned it is TONS better sucking at low levels than that lame TD that owns your ass when you get to the barrier or other high/capped area's.

I've learned it's better to not get FUCKED by maneuvers and now hide/silentstrike than have the TD I did as a Sorcerer.
The best part about this game is going at it again as something completely different. It's a whole new experience.

[Stanley Burrell]

I've learned it's better to not get FUCKED by maneuvers and now hide/silentstrike than have the TD I did as a Sorcerer.
The best part about this game is going at it again as something completely different. It's a whole new experience.

You're not talking end-game right now, are you?

[Asha]

Lvl 80 - fin.

[TheWitch]

I would say there's something wrong with the entire fucking game if NO ONE can kill with one shot, 60 levels over. Please.

Jesse, once again you miss the point. If 60 levels over, I'm not one shot killing with those spells that are the bread and butter of the lower level sorcerer - how well are they doing? Of course I could have one shot killed every last one of them, using DC or implosion or evil eye - and had mana to spare.

Except the point of the excercise would have been lost then, because a low level sorcerer doesn't have the mana for those spells, do they. If I'm plinking, 60 levels over on an endroll approaching 400 .....where does the plinking end?

If 302 doesn't crit kill either on every shot, 60 levels over the target, that should bother you. Read paragraph one.

But I call bullshit on all of you, anway. I had my rogue out killing orcs for the hides, she's 35 they're .. 6? 9? Every single shot, crit from ambush to the head. With a level spread half of the one I was using in the other example. And she is no uber hunter, she's a locksmith build fer crissakes, she can barely hunt like-level.

[Stanley Burrell]

Lvl 80 - fin.

I meant the rogue, rather.

[Stanley Burrell]

I would say there's something wrong with the entire fucking game if NO ONE can kill with one shot, 60 levels over. Please.

Jesse, once again you miss the point. If 60 levels over, I'm not one shot killing with those spells that are the bread and butter of the lower level sorcerer - how well are they doing? Of course I could have one shot killed every last one of them, using DC or implosion or evil eye - and had mana to spare.

Except the point of the excercise would have been lost then, because a low level sorcerer doesn't have the mana for those spells, do they. If I'm plinking, 60 levels over on an endroll approaching 400 .....where does the plinking end?

If 302 doesn't crit kill either on every shot, 60 levels over the target, that should bother you. Read paragraph one.

But I call bullshit on all of you, anway. I had my rogue out killing orcs for the hides, she's 35 they're .. 6? 9? Every single shot, crit from ambush to the head. With a level spread half of the one I was using in the other example. And she is no uber hunter, she's a locksmith build fer crissakes, she can barely hunt like-level.

Orcs don't usually cast CS spells, or do they?

I mean, I wouldn't complain (as a rogue) just because of my ability to get locksmithing EXP. Weird, though.

[Asha]

I could listen to TheWitch getting pissed at not pwning little baby creatures with 400+ endrolls all day.
They're simply not designed to be reliable to kill anything in one shot. Now, those spells that ARE, as you've already said, do.

It's that simple.

[Katt]

I just aim for the head and own them.

As for the manuevers, I still think the td was a lot worse to deal with. But then I also keep my characters really light so maybe they aren't as bad for me.

I'm glad to hear the TD thing is going to be improved though, I hadn't heard anything like that. I still hate swingers because of the hard rt.

[Latrinsorm]

I would say there's something wrong with the entire fucking game if NO ONE can kill with one shot, 60 levels over. Please.Of course rogues can! :D (and rangers, but don't tell anyone. I think if rangers get nerfed any harder they might become range-nerf.)

What's the fascination with OSKing, btw?
If I'm plinking, 60 levels over on an endroll approaching 400 .....where does the plinking end?Are magical endrolls resolved such that very high endrolls do considerably more damage than moderately high endrolls? I ask because I know in the case of maneuvers, a feint of 200 is exactly the same as a feint of 400 is exactly the same as a feint of 1100.

[Stanley Burrell]

Of course rogues can! :D (and rangers, but don't tell anyone. I think if rangers get nerfed any harder they might become range-nerf.)

What's the fascination with OSKing, btw?Are magical endrolls resolved such that very high endrolls do considerably more damage than moderately high endrolls? I ask because I know in the case of maneuvers, a feint of 200 is exactly the same as a feint of 400 is exactly the same as a feint of 1100.

The feint d100s are set in stone as to what happens to the attacker and the opponent. Not a lot of complicated TRIGONOMETRY. Very unwarriorly and uncouth. Nothing can be plain "couth" either.

[thefarmer]

What's the fascination with OSKing, btw?.

Proof that sorcerers apparently suck when compared to other professions. That's all I can understand from the previous posts.

[Numbers]

I'll just say that I have far less fun playing my Sorcerer in GS4 than I did in GS3. Are Sorcerers more versatile now? Absolutely. Do they have more utility? Absolutely.

But that's not why I rolled up a Sorcerer in the first place. I wanted to be the most powerful and destructive profession in the game. The best hunting profession in the game. Sorcerers are now far from either. I couldn't care less about utility or versatility. I just wanted to make things dead as quickly and as elegantly as possible. If I wanted utility, I'd have rolled up a wizard or a semi.

[Latrinsorm]

Who do you think is the most powerful/destructive if not sorcerers?

[Halstein]

Empaths

[Katt]

Empaths

That is hard to argue with. I am in love with my Empath.

[Drew]

I don't know about most destructive, but I think the "sorcerers who heal" argument is completely correct. Empaths are completely overpowered when looked at holistically. Hunt or heal - the game designers knew what they were doing when they made empaths. Add up 12 years of bitching and now they haven't lost any healing power but have gained an incredible amount of hunting power. This for the class that already had the most capped characters by a wide margin (funnily enough, the second most capped characters: sorcs).

[Katt]

If I get jealous of another class I just add an extra character slot. Hehehe.

[Rathain]

I would say there's something wrong with the entire fucking game if NO ONE can kill with one shot, 60 levels over. Please.

Jesse, once again you miss the point. If 60 levels over, I'm not one shot killing with those spells that are the bread and butter of the lower level sorcerer - how well are they doing? Of course I could have one shot killed every last one of them, using DC or implosion or evil eye - and had mana to spare.

Except the point of the excercise would have been lost then, because a low level sorcerer doesn't have the mana for those spells, do they. If I'm plinking, 60 levels over on an endroll approaching 400 .....where does the plinking end?

If 302 doesn't crit kill either on every shot, 60 levels over the target, that should bother you. Read paragraph one.

But I call bullshit on all of you, anway. I had my rogue out killing orcs for the hides, she's 35 they're .. 6? 9? Every single shot, crit from ambush to the head. With a level spread half of the one I was using in the other example. And she is no uber hunter, she's a locksmith build fer crissakes, she can barely hunt like-level.

If you want it dead to validate your character's dominance, use 720. If a cleric wanted it dead, there's always 317. There are options afterall, and that is why it doesn't seem to bother too many people.

[Fallen]

What got me is they are no longer taking away the 200's circle. It was like they were balacing all these changes around diminishing some of said power and adding New New Happy Awesomeness with the Minor Mental circle. Then all of a sudden they aren't.

What you are left with now is a profession that has a spell to kill any and all types of monster, and can heal themselves as well as others for EXP. They also have some of the best AS boosts of the game, and two maneuver protection spells (1109, 215). Not bad for a pure.

[Drew]

Empaths should be split into two classes, the empath class would keep the ability to heal others for exp but their hunting prowess would be knocked down to where it used to be (need to underhunt to be effective) and there should be a new class created that keeps the empath hunting spells and can heal themselves, but not others. You could include some limited empathy of others (less effective healing, only healing HP, something like paladins) but not for exp.

[Katt]

I really don't see the big deal. Why not just make an Empath?

[Drew]

Because I don't want to play an empath. I don't mind power differences, I do mind advancement differences, especially huge ones. For years empaths have advanced MUCH faster than all other classes and that's still true today. I don't care that sorcerers are more powerful than rangers, I would care if that meant that they advanced 150% faster than rangers.

[Katt]

Well before yes healing was a big deal. But now the EXP is really in the bounties. I hate healing and hardly ever do it unless there are no other Empaths around. I've seen wizards, bards, and clerics atleast hunt as well as an Empath can.

I also get more EXP hunting than I would sitting around a node healing. I am not sure about the landing, but other towns for an older empath it is really hard to even get to half full if your completely empty. There are just not enough people around and those who are around are older and usually don't get hurt as much or have an alt stashed away to heal them.

Perhaps if they took EXP away from healing completely (and no they wouldn't have to take it away from rogues who pick because obviously they have it a bit harder than Empaths anyways) that would even it out a little more. I really wouldn't mind. That would be a better compromise than making them so they can't hunt. Then they would level as slow as other pures but wouldn't become the slowest leveling class because all they can do is heal.

You used to be able to fry super fast when you were healing maybe that is what people are remembering. After changes/nerfs and lack of people though this is no longer so.

[Fallen]

Empaths should be split into two classes, the empath class would keep the ability to heal others for exp but their hunting prowess would be knocked down to where it used to be (need to underhunt to be effective) and there should be a new class created that keeps the empath hunting spells and can heal themselves, but not others. You could include some limited empathy of others (less effective healing, only healing HP, something like paladins) but not for exp.

Ayep.

[thefarmer]

I also get more EXP hunting than I would sitting around a node healing. I am not sure about the landing, but other towns for an older empath it is really hard to even get to half full if your completely empty. There are just not enough people around and those who are around are older and usually don't get hurt as much or have an alt stashed away to heal them. You used to be able to fry super fast when you were healing maybe that is what people are remembering. After changes/nerfs and lack of people though this is no longer so.

Heal in the Landing and you won't have a problem at just about any time of day. As far as other towns, you're probably right. Though this past weekend I spent some time in Illistim and ended up having to heal myself repeatedly with herbs due to no empath for hours on end.

[Katt]

Yeah I noticed we either have a crap load of healers in the dais or none around. Usually I avoid sitting in the dais if no ones around because I don't like healing all that much. If someones asking on the net though I usually come to help out.

I do hate when people bitch that I took too long because I took three extra minutes to get to the dais when I was in the middle of a hunt. It makes me bitter sometimes to want to heal anyone but that isn't fair to all the nice people around.

[Halstein]

Well before yes healing was a big deal. But now the EXP is really in the bounties.

What you're failing to address is that an empath can bounty hunt just as well, if not better, then other professions.
Then, after a bounty is turned in, they can sit on a node and continue to gain exp.

I would even submit that with 213 and traditional strong, cheap training in first aid, empaths are better suited to bounties then any other class- though that would probably be debatable. Certainly not pre-20, but afterwards when they have the mana to kill as efficiently as any other pure...

[Katt]

What you're failing to address is that an empath can bounty hunt just as well, if not better, then other professions.
Then, after a bounty is turned in, they can sit on a node and continue to gain exp.

I would even submit that with 213 and traditional strong, cheap training in first aid, empaths are better suited to bounties then any other class- though that would probably be debatable. Certainly not pre-20, but afterwards when they have the mana to kill as efficiently as any other pure...

I capped a square I fully agree with you. It's bullshit! When I started playing casters I was like holy shit! This is so not fair how much easier it is for them! But now that I worked them up there and have them I don't want them taken away. =( Hehehe. Selfish I know.

Honestly whatever happens, I will just go with the flow and adapt either way.

[Halstein]

Empaths should be split into two classes, the empath class would keep the ability to heal others for exp but their hunting prowess would be knocked down to where it used to be (need to underhunt to be effective) and there should be a new class created that keeps the empath hunting spells and can heal themselves, but not others. You could include some limited empathy of others (less effective healing, only healing HP, something like paladins) but not for exp.

I think this is a very interesting idea. Although its unlikely to have two separate classes, I would be in favor of something similar to clerics. Deity choice determines which spells/abilities you have. One towards battle and self heal, the other towards healing others. I would let battle empaths transfer wounds from others, but at a much higher lvl (say, 30) and not let them get xp for it.

[Drew]

It's not a bad idea, but they'd have to be limited somehow. Maybe each major wound transferred took away 1 spirit point? Otherwise empaths who choose the healing route would whine that their potential exp was being taken away by do-gooders (and not without some merit).

[Katt]

I think the spirit is a bit harsh. Really they just need to nerf how much you get while healing again and let them bitch.

[thefarmer]

Half the experience, cost it double mana to heal yourself up would be a better step I think

[Necromancer]

That IS the plan. To give the profession two main tracks: the healing track and the warpath track. Though it's a specialization thing. Either track will still be adequate in the other area.

[Asha]

I'd be less upset I can't pick while 2hw, dux and plate as a rogue, if empaths were give a profession choice too.
Drews idea was nearly satisfactory. And Jesse where did you know that that IS the plan?
I had no clue.

[Stanley Burrell]

Because I don't want to play an empath. I don't mind power differences, I do mind advancement differences, especially huge ones.

I'll give you a quarter if you carve this on Whatley's face.

[Celephais]

That IS the plan. To give the profession two main tracks: the healing track and the warpath track. Though it's a specialization thing. Either track will still be adequate in the other area.
Empaths trained for combat aren't exactly substantially worse healers than healing route trained empaths. The only possible difference would be healing RT... maybe if they started to give the ability to train in things that let them transfer more wounds at once (link to person, then siphon off the wounds), but would cost you in some combat form to be able to do that better...

How about this, empaths no longer are able to just transfer wounds as fast as they can type them, they have to link, and then wait five seconds, and then it'll start siphoning a certain number of wounds (higher ranks taking more of the "number") at a certain speed. If you've trained to be a highly effecient healer you can transfer more wounds faster without having to re-link, and it may take more/less times to link than five seconds based on training and how injured the target is.

[Fallen]

Nerfing healing I do not think is a good idea. This game needs healers for some classes/player types to enjoy it. They should just split the profession, make one incredible healers with gimped combat abilities, and another incredible hunters with gimped healing abilities.

[Celephais]

Nerfing healing I do not think is a good idea. This game needs healers for some classes/player types to enjoy it. They should just split the profession, make one incredible healers with gimped combat abilities, and another incredible hunters with gimped healing abilities.
I think what I was suggesting could be considered "not a nerf". Lets say you make it so that if you went a training path for healing your combat abilities would be nerfed, but that now you link instead of transfer (and if you've trained for it the link can be near instantaneous) and then it would transfer the wounds quickly (preventing the need to actually type in all of the transfers). Maybe even if you're well trained you have a chance to actually heal the wounds as part of transfering (so no need to actually heal it down).

This way you can provide a "gimped healing ability" to those who haven't trained to heal, and you can have incredible healers for those trained for it. This would be more inline with rogue's picking as rogue's have to train for their alt-exp method, and empaths train in healing as a side effect of training for combat.

[Latrinsorm]

EmpathsWhat can an empath do in a swarm? Mass interference? Sympathy? Anything that's anywhere near as effective as ewave or implosion?
Heal in the Landing and you won't have a problem at just about any time of day.Depends on what you mean by "have a problem". The fact is that even in the landing it's not always possible to fry in any given hour.
How about this, empaths no longer are able to just transfer wounds as fast as they can type them, they have to link, and then wait five seconds, and then it'll start siphoning a certain number of wounds (higher ranks taking more of the "number") at a certain speed.This would result in kvetching from the healee (especially the ones who die because of it) more than the healer.

[Celephais]

This would result in kvetching from the healee (especially the ones who die because of it) more than the healer.
Which was entirely my intention :tumble:

If you're wounded and you find an empath, any 10+ empath, it's far too certain that if they punch in their script you'll live. I'd much rather see people wanting to take empaths with them/make good friends so they move to the head of a line, etc... as it is right now I can merrily walk into one of any healing locations and scream "I"M DIEIGINGGLIGS" and I'll be fine with a 30pt bleeder and 61 health left.

[Fallen]

What can an empath do in a swarm? Mass interference? Sympathy? Anything that's anywhere near as effective as ewave or implosion? >>>

Spirit Slayer + Fire Spirit or Web.

[Latrinsorm]

And are either of those as efficient or effective as the sorcerer's options?

[Katt]

My Fire spirit's CS is like 30. I mostly just concentrate on Bone Shatter. 240 with bone shatter kicks ass though. Isn't mass but gets the job done in good time.

[Asha]

Fire spirit and CS? What have I been missing??

[Necromancer]

She means AS. i.e. no spell aiming

[crb]

You know what I do in a swarm? Rub a Cone of Lightning Anklet I bought from portuous (bought 160 of them I think, 3 rubs each), or invoke it off a scroll.

I imagine an empath could easily use imbeddable ewave or something similar. The best option doesn't always have to be a native spell.

But ya, ewave trinket, 240, 111, you'll clear a room with that combo easy.

Even better, ewave trinket, 515 scroll, 240, 111. hehehe.

[thefarmer]

Depends on what you mean by "have a problem". The fact is that even in the landing it's not always possible to fry in any given hour.

You're absolutely specifically correct. I would not assert that it is always/withoutabout/positivelycertainbeyondashadowofadoubt possible to fry in the landing for any given hour.

I will, however, still say you won't have a problem in the Landing with healing and gaining exp.

[Necromancer]

>Except the point of the excercise would have been lost then, because a low level sorcerer doesn't have the mana for those spells, do they. If I'm plinking, 60 levels over on an endroll approaching 400 .....where does the plinking end?

I totally missed a big chunk of this, but I'm going to point out Rheisia, since we're in "spot the bullshit" mode...

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A 60 LEVEL SPREAD. THERE ARE NO LOW-LEVEL SORCERERS WITH 60 LEVELS OVER ANYTHING.

So your mana constraint point is irrelevant. And if you're using 702 for your instant kills 60 levels over, then yes you will be let down. It has a 5% automatic crit rate. That's not going to change based on level. Try looking past level 2 on the spell list if you're trying to make some holistic assessment of the profession. We do have 20 spell slots above it.

=D

[TheWitch]

Jesse, sometimes I swear you are being intentionally oblique and I'm starting to suspect you can add split personality disorder to your list of supposed ailments.

[875000]

Jesse, sometimes I swear you are being intentionally oblique and I'm starting to suspect you can add split personality disorder to your list of supposed ailments.

He has ADHD. People with it have difficulty focusing and change their mind frequently. :)