Sorcerers weakest of the pures?

[DwarvenTank]

With all the talk of how bad sorcerers have it and how they are sooooooo much weaker then all the other pure classes I figured I'd log the shots from a hunt with one of my sorcerers.

My hunting style right now consists of:
701 when low on blood and want to top off
702 is a cheap 4 shot kill for those creatures that can do no harm
703 any creature that casts a spell I fear
705 any non corp creatures
706 anything that can stun and is dangerous
708 flying or tackling creatures
711 things with lots of blood I dont want to let move
715 grizzled creatures before blasting
718 dont use in the rift but when I do use its great
719 any creature that is a pure
720 hardly ever use, I like loot, but great for annoying things with no loot

on to the clips:
702: (best of the cheap mana spells!)
You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +80 == +219
Warding failed!
A masterful strike.-->45-49
... 25 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(70 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +21 == +160
Warding failed!
A most painful blow.-->50-54
... 25 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(75 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +8 == +147
Warding failed!
A devastating hit.-->60-64
... 25 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(85 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +11 == +150
Warding failed!
A masterful strike.-->45-49
... 15 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(60 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +320 + CvA: +25 + d100: +97 == +242
Warding failed!
A most painful blow.-->50-54
... 30 points of damage!
Skull and surrounding flesh disintegrate. The caedera falls to the ground dead.
The caedera writhes in agony and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(80 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +320 + CvA: +25 + d100: +58 == +203
Warding failed!
Massive internal disruption.-->65+
... 30 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(95 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +153
Warding failed!
A devastating hit.-->60-64
... 25 points of damage!
The caedera's intestines knot themselves. Painful.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(85 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +326 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +190
Warding failed!
Massive internal disruption.-->65+
... 25 points of damage!
Blood in the caedera's left eye boils. Red steam rises from socket.
The caedera crumples to the ground motionless.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(90 damage)

You channel at a caedera.
CS: +440 - TD: +323 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +228
Warding failed!
Massive internal disruption.-->65+
... 40 points of damage!
The caedera's stomach muscles explode violently.
The caedera is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(105 damage)

705: (really think 1106 owns it like certain sorcerers keep saying?)
You channel at a seraceris.
CS: +440 - TD: +339 + CvA: +15 + d100: +70 == +186
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the seraceris!
... 67 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
The arm reforms before your eyes!
... 32 points of damage!
Various bits of the seraceris melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a seraceris.
CS: +440 - TD: +339 + CvA: +15 + d100: +56 == +172
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the seraceris!
... 76 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Right arm ripped in half at elbow!
The fallen arm evaporates as a new one materializes.
... 35 points of damage!
Various bits of the seraceris melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +327 + CvA: +25 + d100: +98 == +236
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 108 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Huge hit explodes left arm into cold, viscous mist.
When you look again, the arm has reformed.
... 45 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +17 == +167
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 83 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Strike swipes cleanly through the abdomen, but seals up a moment later!
... 23 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +39 == +189
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 105 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Massive blow obliterates the left knee.
The naisirc falters as a sickly light flows freely down its leg.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 43 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +43 == +193
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 104 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
... 33 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +23 == +173
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 97 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Quick strike rips right arm open!
To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.
... 12 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +66 == +216
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 112 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Strong hit to the chest!
Tendrils of mist explode as the strike passes right through.
... 32 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +324 + CvA: +25 + d100: +75 == +216
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 100 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Incredible strike to the naisirc's back smashes through the chest!
Too bad it melts back together.
... 39 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +77 == +227
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 110 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Attack whistles right through the lower back encountering little resistance!
... 32 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc

You channel at a naisirc.
CS: +440 - TD: +315 + CvA: +25 + d100: +99 == +249
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the naisirc!
... 123 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Incredible strike to the naisirc's back smashes through the chest!
Too bad it melts back together.
... 43 points of damage!
Various bits of the naisirc melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You channel at a seraceris.
CS: +440 - TD: +327 + CvA: +15 + d100: +97 == +225
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam snakes out toward the seraceris!
... 90 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Strong strike splits the belly open, revealing ghostly organs.
Haggis anyone?
... 33 points of damage!
Various bits of the seraceris melt away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

719: (may not own like it used to but on magic creatures I get about 80% death crits and those that dont out right die are good as dead)
You gesture at a csetairi.
CS: +440 - TD: +334 + CvA: +25 + d100: +29 == +160
Warding failed!
... and hits for 20 points of damage!
A csetairi is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
The csetairi is stunned!
... 70 points of damage!
Belly is now a block of ice. So much for breakfast!
The csetairi crumples to the ground motionless.

You gesture at a csetairi.
CS: +440 - TD: +334 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +217
Warding failed!
... and hits for 23 points of damage!
A csetairi is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 50 points of damage!
Permanently debilitating burns across stomach.
The csetairi is stunned!
... 45 points of damage!
The csetairi's left arm is shattered beyond recognition by frigid blow.
The csetairi shrieks loudly as she falls to the ground and cradles her mangled left arm!
... 70 points of damage!
Horrifying bolt of electricity turns chest into a smoking pulp of flesh. No life left there.
The csetairi writhes in agony and dies.

You gesture at a csetairi.
CS: +440 - TD: +327 + CvA: +25 + d100: +19 == +157
Warding failed!
... and hits for 25 points of damage!
A csetairi is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 60 points of damage!
Left arm incinerated. Unfortunate.
The csetairi shrieks loudly as she falls to the ground and cradles her mangled left arm!
The csetairi is stunned!
... 25 points of damage!
Near miss! Cool blast to the lower back and the csetairi staggers.
... 25 points of damage!
Hard jolt knocks the csetairi back on her heels.
... 30 points of damage!
Good blow to right arm!
You feel 5 mana surge into you!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a csetairi.
CS: +440 - TD: +334 + CvA: +25 + d100: +80 == +211
Warding failed!
... and hits for 40 points of damage!
A csetairi is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
The csetairi is stunned!
... 80 points of damage!
Belly is now a block of ice. So much for breakfast!
The csetairi crumples to the ground motionless.
The very powerful look leaves a csetairi.

You gesture at a csetairi.
CS: +440 - TD: +334 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +188
Warding failed!
... and hits for 33 points of damage!
A csetairi is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
The csetairi is stunned!
... 25 points of damage!
Stiff blast of icy air to neck!
... 15 points of damage!
Light shock to right hand. Fingers tingle.
... 80 points of damage!
Every bone in the left arm shattered and scattered about!
The csetairi shrieks loudly as she falls to the ground and cradles her mangled left arm!
You feel 5 mana surge into you!


My sorcerer hunts with a like level cleric and she is great when she is open handed offense stance channeling, but put a shield in her hand or in guarded stance and she isnt nearly as impressive. My sorcerer also has way more options to pick from all of which are deadly on the right type of creature. 410, 435, 709 for swarms (heck even open 720), 701, 702, 705, 710, 711, 717, 718, 719, 720, as for class specific killing options, 703, 706, 708, 713, 715 to disable or assist in killing..... Compaired to the one trick ponies of the other classes? I think sorcerers are not only the strongest of the pures, they also have the most style hands down.

Only thing I give to the other pures is one+ class specific bolt spells that helps with up hunting, but with 715 to lower TD, or 111 and the new 118 bolt even that isnt too much an advantage.

I love the sorcerer profession and enjoy it more then any of the other pure classes. I always like to see new development and hope we get more, but to say that we are the weakest of the pures and are in need of uptweaking is just false IMO, but like they say "opinions are like assholes...."

[Fallen]

I didn't see shots of your animate in there, or your demon...hmm...

Go figure.

[AestheticDeath]

I also don't see your shots of 1106.

When I was hunting a capped empath in OTF, it was working much closer to 719 than 705. Every other shot was a kill shot, and anything that resisted the spell only took 2-4 castings depending on what it was. Griffins were the most resistant if I recall correctly.

The empath could fry, and power hunt for loot or fame on 300ish mana. The 99 sorcerer I have right now is lucky to fry on the same amount of mana. The only real way for me to do it with him is to purposely ignore everything but seers and adepts. And DC them. I go after anything else, threats or otherwise and I am wasting mana.

You may think sorcerer spells are great, and they can be. But they are far away from the best spells. Oh, and when you get to OTF with that sorcerer of yours, please be sure and try 720 on a few things. Be sure to use it in a swarm and all that.

[Axhinde]

Not to nit pick E, but you know demons can't attack. And animates are (admittedly) the most deadly pet class in the game...for 10 minutes, 30 mana, and reagents, and lores.

[Fallen]

And Meteor Swarm is THE most deadliest spell in the game, yet you dont see wizards listing it as one of their strengths. Why? Because it was poorly implimented.

[Axhinde]

I know this, mang. I believe the intent of my post was to point out the poor implementation of the sorcerer pet spells, and a good bit of sorcerer spells in general.

DwarvenTank: While it's all fine and dandy you find the usefulness in your spells, not all sorcerers do. Hell I have a hard time even hunting with mine with the dreary, plinking spells a level 38 sorcerer has mana to use. Hell, I'll Torment a critter who's TD is usually too high to ward with a bunch of 702s or 705s, and take advantage of my offensive stance and channel 702 at other shit while my Torment continues mauling.

I do not believe sorcerers are as weak or nerfed as some of them believe, though I can sympathize while it would seem that way. IMO, they're a bit more of an embodiment of the attrition system as opposed to anything else. I also understand why they cry foul when they witness one cast kills with Bane/Smite...or when they see Bone Shatter in action. Why Empaths have, for the most part, THE quintessential warding pwn spell in the game.

I actually did play a sorcerer, briefly, back when MD really was overpowered. I think there should be a lore requirement for MD and Disintigrate for increased damage. Right now, and V is right, the Sorcerer lores are very narrow.

I think sorcerers are teetering on a happy medium, while not quite there, a little bit of love would do them justice.

[Fallen]

Sorcerers lacking a lore influence on 702 and 705 is a pretty big drawback in the light of other attack spells with such accompaniments.

[Axhinde]

Sorcerers lacking a lore influence on 702 and 705 is a pretty big drawback in the light of other attack spells with such accompaniments.

I believe the word you're looking for is ginormis.

[Fallen]

What about Hugetastic?

[Axhinde]

Massigantic?

[Fallen]

Massigantic works.

[Stanley Burrell]

Lies, all lies.

WTRICK HAIRCUT is the most slept on battlefield tactic.

[Axhinde]

Seriously how unbalancing would it be for lores to increase the base damage of 705? Or increase crit thresholds for 702? Mana Controls technically could factor into returns on DC, based on a percentage summation chart. I didn't pay attention to the crap-on-virilneus-and-watch-him-try-to-defend-himself thread.

[7Seconds]

I've a gambit for you before you go off and say sorcery is or isn't the most/least powerful... run an equaly well trained cleric, empath, and wizard through thoughs paces and compare notes.

[Axhinde]

The empath would be the most impressive, followed by a wizard, then cleric.

I had a wizard that hunted OTF and Plane 5, 415'd and 409'd everything, bolted the rest. Super fast, super easy, super pwn. Still, an Empath would be faster. Clerics come in third due to the alignment requirement for bane/smite, though 317 is almost uber when trained properly.

[radamanthys]

Plus, you gotta consider that there are some sorcerers who, you know, don't hunt teh rift/otf, cuz they're, well, level 30 or 40.

Having a demon to RP is pretty useless without illusions... which are just mind-numbing at lower levels. Someone try and tell wizards that they can't bring their familiars into town until they master a guild skill, and see if they whine.

Component gathering makes AD just suck. Sorry, the spell could allow me to one-shot kill everything for 10 minutes, and it'd still not be worth it to me. You see... time gathering materials > time saved in a hunt.

A good spell will save your life or make hunting faster/easier. AD: Easier? No. Faster? No. Save your life? Maybe, but the time it takes to die and get rezzed doesn't mitigate the expense (time/money) of AD. Regardless of how good, via absolute value, that it is (I hear that some higher level critters are pretty pwn)... the sum total of cost vs. benefit makes AD prohibitively teh suck.

Sorcerers were (and are supposed to be) masters of destruction... who's fart-brained idea was it to say "oh, lets change the entire function of a sorcerer from being powerful destroyer to DoT plinker!" Let's give every other class some nasty destructive spells, and nerf the shit out of the sorcerer's! Lets take away lockpicking/stealing from rogues, healing from empaths, raising from clerics, loresinging from bards and enchanting from wizards, and give them to sorcerers! Cuz that's what they did to us.

I hear 740 is the shit though. I closed just before that came out.

</rant>

[Drew]

When I was hunting a capped empath in OTF, it was working much closer to 719 than 705. Every other shot was a kill shot, and anything that resisted the spell only took 2-4 castings depending on what it was. Griffins were the most resistant if I recall correctly.



Presumably this was before the nerf? Bone shatter is pretty craptastic compared to its previous incarnation.

I still think empaths are stupidly overpowered, but that's because of their sit-on-ass healing ability combined with how good of hunters they are now. I won't get started on it though.

On topic: sorcs are still overpowered, but I know the grass is greener when you play one. I almost feel bad for a guy like Virilneus because he got to taste sorcs back when they were super-powered, as compared to someone like Evarin who (I think) started playing later. I played one of those sorcs back in "the day" and there hasn't been a class in Gemstone with that kind of power level for near a decade. I can understand the viewpoint because they are lesser powered now, but compared to the other classes they are only 110% of their power level.

But half the classes have been down-tweaked and the other half up-tweaked in the intervening decade since the ascendancy of sorcs. There was a paticular cleric who was trained in such a way that they 1 shotted everything except on a fumble and had something like 13 health. Spike thorn was 1 or 2 cast death for every creature. Yet you don't hear rangers still complaining about the 3 levels of spike thorn nerfs, so that leaves the question of why sorcerers are such whiny bitches?

[Axhinde]

Sorcerers were (and are supposed to be) masters of destruction.

The official description of the class hasn't fit (or been changed) since pre-2000. By all accounts, one could argue that sorcerers are masters of destruction due to their perceived abilities of wrecking animate and inanimate matter. Their spell list does well enough to dispute this, though.



so that leaves the question of why sorcerers are such whiny bitches

I'm sure every profession has whiny bitches, there's just more of them for sorcerers. Spike Thorn is still a great set-up spell for a semi, and I think Rangers knew it wasn't intended for use as a main hunting spell. It's like sonic disruption for bards, minus all the lore training and sacrifice.

Also, I don't hear sorcerers whine about everything. It's just the shit they whine about the same shit over and over.

[Drew]

At least sorcs have rogues to make them seem not so bad.

Warriors and bards (except Gnimble) don't complain nearly as much even though they got the short end of the stick for much longer than most of the other classes. I guess the trick is to make them suck first and then improve, that way they'll be grateful.

[Drew]

I'm sure every profession has whiny bitches, there's just more of them for sorcerers. Spike Thorn is still a great set-up spell for a semi.



Not really, rangers have cheaper spells that do the same thing (generally) better. It's not useless, but it's situational now. I don't blame you for not knowing this because, as I said, rangers don't seem to whine and complain about it like certain other classes. Heck we barely even mention that we have a 50th level spell that is worthless.

[Axhinde]

Warriors and bards (except Gnimble) don't complain nearly as much even though they got the short end of the stick for much longer than most of the other classes. I guess the trick is to make them suck first and then improve, that way they'll be grateful.

:lol:

I don't see much a bard has to complain about. Warriors are a different story.

About the only improvement I've seen coming to them that's been mentioned is a tweak to sheath making, and a believe Coase said he liked the idea of armor training having benefits past 140 ranks.

Redux was a needed implementation, though the downtweak does make it more interesting. A few CMANs, MOC, and the armor issue aside, I think warriors are ok.

[Axhinde]

Not really, rangers have cheaper spells that do the same thing (generally) better. It's not useless, but it's situational now. I don't blame you for not knowing this because, as I said, rangers don't seem to whine and complain about it like certain other classes. Heck we barely even mention that we have a 50th level spell that is worthless.


I do know this, and I agree with it. I also think it should be situational.

I wouldn't mention 650 if I was a Ranger either, it's embarrassing.

[DwarvenTank]

1106 doesnt work on alot of creatures in game period. If it took you 2-4 casts of it to kill stuff then I'd say its much closer to 702 since I hardly ever need more then 4 shots to kill anything with it. My 52nd train empath uses 1106 and has a bitch of a time frying on a head of mana, I've never had that trouble with my sorcerer past 20th or so when stopped having to use sword/broad.

As for a 99th train sorcerer not being able to fry off a head of mana.... All I can say is maybe you should look into how you trained, I used to hunt a sorc from 84 to 93 at the conversion to gs4 and never had trouble hunting in OTF propper other then making sure to spell tank and he was a voln master so didnt have wracking.

As for the smart ass comment to 720 in OTF, I've been to OTF with my sorcerer, as well as the one I used to play, as well as with my warrior, rogue, cleric and wizard and know what not to cast but thanks for the pointer...


I also don't see your shots of 1106.

When I was hunting a capped empath in OTF, it was working much closer to 719 than 705. Every other shot was a kill shot, and anything that resisted the spell only took 2-4 castings depending on what it was. Griffins were the most resistant if I recall correctly.

The empath could fry, and power hunt for loot or fame on 300ish mana. The 99 sorcerer I have right now is lucky to fry on the same amount of mana. The only real way for me to do it with him is to purposely ignore everything but seers and adepts. And DC them. I go after anything else, threats or otherwise and I am wasting mana.

You may think sorcerer spells are great, and they can be. But they are far away from the best spells. Oh, and when you get to OTF with that sorcerer of yours, please be sure and try 720 on a few things. Be sure to use it in a swarm and all that.

[Axhinde]

Even on lower level creatures, stance offensive, and both hands empty I cannot claim my sorcerer kills EVERY creature in no more than 4 casts. You must include those who are of the lower level variety if you wish an analysis to be taken seriously. Higher levels give a higher warding failure do to CS. MD a few lost souls or vaespillon in 2-4 casts.

[DwarvenTank]

I dont believe I said EVERY, in fact I KNOW I didnt say every

[Axhinde]

You didn't, but you did say it was a cheap 2-4 cast kill. Sometimes, it doesn't even take 2. Sometimes, it takes more. Depends on the creature.

[Drew]

:lol:

I don't see much a bard has to complain about.

...

I think warriors are ok.

I agree that both of them are ok. In fact I'll go out on a limb and claim that no class is underpowered in GS4 (unless you compare them to other classes). Anyone who can't hunt their character has a training issue or an operator issue. My comment about bards and warriors were that they used to suck pretty hardcore so I can see them complaining about it still, sorcs have never sucked at all, so I don't get why they whine so much.


I don't think it's true, but let's assume clerics are better than sorcs. So what? Sorcs can still hunt just fine. If you campaign for an uptweak for sorcs or a downtweak for clerics then we'll see the game eventually get to the point where the classes are exactly the same with different flavour text (I'm not addressing this at you Axhinde, just a general you).

Anyway, if you ever feel sad as a sorc that you suck, just go hunt with 720 which is the most powerful attack spell in the game hands down. You can also consider how clerics are the worst CvC class in the game and sorcs are one of the best.

[Axhinde]

Ut oh, CvC.

I don't think it's true clerics suck, or are overpowered. Same for sorcerers. Hunting with 720 doesn't always work, though for 74 mana you can clear out a room and fry completely. I'd say that is pretty powerful.

As far as CvC is concerned, it's moot in Gemstone considering whoever pushes enter first wins. Every profession has powerful CvC tools, none moreso than 720, of course. Bind and Blind are pretty amazing also. Fu, not so much. Warcries, definetly. Bearhug/Garrote, pretty good also. My sorc is 39, and my only complaint is its boring at times. Oh, and also that 102 does not affect maneuver attacks.

Edit: Changed to 74 mana, forgot to add the final dispell.

[7Seconds]

>For 57 mana you an clear out a room and fry completely.

Pray tell how?

[Drew]

Oh, and also that 102 does not affect maneuver attacks.

It does affect urchin spines, don't know of any others.

[Axhinde]

720, 417 void, 720, 417 void.

[Drew]

>For 57 mana you an clear out a room and fry completely.

Pray tell how?

I think he's referring to open implode, open implode, dispel void. There's also ewave, open implode, dispel.

[Axhinde]

I think certain spells should definetly affect maneuvers. 102, being a wall of air. Same goes for 140. WoT should also have some form of damage associated with being hit by/connecting with maneuvers as well.

Not to the point where it affords total protection from them, that would be stupid. But something of a little bonus would make sense per spell descriptions.

[Axhinde]

I think he's referring to open implode, open implode, dispel void. There's also ewave, open implode, dispel.

Can't rely on ewave as well as an initial Open Implode in my experience. It works, just not as often or as well.

[Necromancer]

Comparing 702 to 1106 makes absolutely no sense. They're not the same spell, they're not even meant to be equivalent spells. Sorcerers are incredibly fortunate to have such a viable low level attack spell and to simultaneously have a full selection of higher level spells to hunt with.

Though having watched 702 and 1106 in action, the only way 1106 beats 702 out is with substantial training in lores. But if you want a real comparison, look at 302. Not only is the damage capped, unlike 702, but the mana costs for the same kind of damage 702 can do is higher.

And, while I'm not going to make any claims regarding the first 50 levels; after you hit the top 50 levels 719 makes an insta-drop spell against a good 60% of what you hunt, with that percentage increasing substantially as you go up in level. By OTF you can drop Initiates, Seers, Adepts, and Heralds in one hit of 719 and Scouts in one hit of 717. It leaves Constructs (which no pure can hunt reliably except for a sorcerer, interestingly enough) and Jans to 'plink' at, if you so desire.

And, as a side note about AD, I logged one hunt and pasted the last 10 attacks my animated Scout made. No editing here; those are the last 10 as they happened. I spared you all the full hunt, but you'll see just how 'worthless' AD is at high levels. (with an insane amount of training, granted)

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir janissary!
AS: +432 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +99 = +176
... and hits for 30 points of damage!
Quick slash to the Ithzir janissary's upper right arm!
Just a nick.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +233 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +13 = +252
... and hits for 106 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the Ithzir scout's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +7 = +221
... and hits for 91 points of damage!
Spinal cord damaged by smash to the back.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +212 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +8 = +266
... and hits for 103 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters shield arm.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +227 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +80 = +323
... and hits for 137 points of damage!
Right arm ripped from socket at the elbow!
The war griffin screeches loudly as it cradles its mangled right front leg!

** As an animated Ithzir scout's sword lands home, it sucks the air surrounding it away! **
... 5 points of damage!
Back pops as muscles resist the vacuum!
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +241 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +3 = +232
... and hits for 76 points of damage!
Left elbow smashed into a thousand pieces.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir herald!
AS: +432 vs DS: +377 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +18 = +113
... and hits for 8 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
The Ithzir herald takes a deep breath.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +218 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +97 = +351
... and hits for 166 points of damage!
Weapon arm removed at the shoulder!
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +308 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +87 = +251
... and hits for 116 points of damage!
Lucky shot rips through bone and muscle sending right leg flying.
An Ithzir scout falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +89 = +249
... and hits for 110 points of damage!
Spectacular slash!
The Ithzir scout's right arm is neatly amputated!
The scout's steel broadsword falls to the ground.
The Ithzir scout is stunned!

[DwarvenTank]

You didn't, but you did say it was a cheap 2-4 cast kill. Sometimes, it doesn't even take 2. Sometimes, it takes more. Depends on the creature.

I said that if it was taking 2-4 shots of bone shatter to kill things I would consider boneshatter closer to MD then DC since it normally doesnt take more then 4 shots to kill with MD. On average I get 80-90ish points of damage each shot of MD x 4 is enough to kill MOST things, not all sure but whats it gona take 1-2 more shot at most to finish the few it doesnt. Mana effeicent killing spell if I've ever seen on.


I've a gambit for you before you go off and say sorcery is or isn't the most/least powerful... run an equaly well trained cleric, empath, and wizard through thoughs paces and compare notes.

As for like level clerics and empaths, I hunt with a cleric. The cleric open handed offensive stance channeling owns things with 302, as long as they match up to bane/smite, switch it up and the spell sucks. Guarded stance and the spell tones down alot, pull out the shield and the spell is weak. 312 does alot of damage IF you are willing to stand in offense stance for 9 second straight with out even stunning what you cast at if it doesnt die outright and is hugely endroll based. The only time the cleric casts that spell is after the sorcerer mindjolts the crap out of something. 317 good spell but expensive as hell for how often it doesnt crit kill.

I dont have a like level empath, but I do have a pure empath and a ranged empath, and the ranged empath is alot more fun IMO. The pure empath at 52 has problems with mana that my sorcerer has never had after 20th or so. 1101 sucks, does 20-30 damage per cast but is nice for finishing things cheap(but not nearly as good as 701). 1106 good spell, downtweaked from what it was, but is one of the most limited spells due to creature immunities. Takes me 3+ shots of 1106 with the change to kill a faeroth and a shot or two of 1101 to finish unless I get a crit which isnt nearly as common now. 1115, I've only played with it, but at 52 it is too costly for what it does unless you get large endrolls regularly.

So, thats three character specific warding spells for clerics and empaths, most of which are very limited on what creatures they damage vs sorcerers multitude of attack spells most of which arent limited by what creature you are hunting (705 and 719 being the only two that creature type really matters for maximum damage, oh and undead immune to 701).

As for wizards, meh they are decent but I dont enjoy hunting them as much. I dont see them any better then sorcerers, just completely different style. I hunt a 100th wizard all the time and I like sorcerers style alot more. Ton of rehashed bolt/ball tossing, with boil and immolation to mix things up a bit. Although I do love cone, that spells rocks in swarms.

[Davenshire]

I beleive it is the dreaded 511/720/417 combo he might be referring to.


Turn yer disk->

casts into the air above his head and a rip appears in the sky! The fissure begins to feed on the air around you!
An engraved fel chest is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to abdomen!
The krolvin warfarer is stunned!
Some full leather is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 35 points of damage!
Massive blow removes the krolvin warfarer's left foot!
A krolvin warfarer screams and falls to the ground grasping his mangled left leg!
The krolvin warfarer is stunned!
A reinforced shield is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to chest!
The krolvin warrior is stunned!
A reinforced shield is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to chest!
A falchion is sucked into the void, striking a raven along the way! NO, NOT MY RAVEN! ... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to neck!
A falchion is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 50 points of damage!
Massive blow to abdomen!
The krolvin warrior is stunned!
A white flask is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to chest!
A leather helm is sucked into the void, missing a raven along the way!
Some studded leather is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to right arm!
The krolvin warfarer is stunned!
A falchion is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to neck!!
Something snaps!
A war mattock is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to right leg breaks it!
It is knocked to the ground!
Some brigandine armor is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to left arm!
A war mattock is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to left arm!
Some brigandine armor is sucked into the void, missing a raven along the way!
Some full leather is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to head!
A reinforced shield is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to left arm!
Some basal moss is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 1 point of damage!
Blow bounces off the right leg.
Some brigandine armor is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to the abdomen!
A war mattock is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 60 points of damage!
Blow to back crushes spinal column.
Talk about no backbone!
The krolvin warfarer screams one last time and lies still.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The powerful look leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
A reinforced shield is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to head!
The krolvin warfarer looks dazed!
A war mattock is sucked into the void, missing a krolvin warfarer along the way!
Some brigandine armor is sucked into the void, missing a krolvin warfarer along the way!
A broadsword is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warfarer along the way!
... 35 points of damage!
Hard blow to chest breaking ribs!
Hard to breathe!
Some brigandine armor is sucked into the void, striking a krolvin warrior along the way!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to left arm breaking tendons and bone!
A krolvin warrior is knocked over by the wind!
A krolvin warrior is sucked into the void!
Rather abrupt decompression causes a krolvin warrior to explode!
Billions and billions of tiny warrior bits shower everything.
Quite severely dead.
A krolvin warfarer is sucked into the void!
Rather abrupt decompression causes a krolvin warfarer to explode!
Billions and billions of tiny warfarer bits shower everything.
Quite severely dead.
A krolvin warrior is sucked into the void!
Rather abrupt decompression causes a krolvin warrior to explode!
Billions and billions of tiny warrior bits shower everything.
Quite severely dead.
A krolvin warfarer is sucked into the void!
Rather abrupt decompression causes a krolvin warfarer to explode!
Billions and billions of tiny warfarer bits shower everything.
Quite severely dead.

being in the group my raven wasn;t so fortunate... does that count as an AD companion before they came out with animate dead? A dead raven followed me around for about 20 minutes afterwards.

** Please note this isn't something you'd use in an area where folks are running around, or where monsters steal weapons. A registered item on the gorund might be safe, but one in the monsters hand won't be. Just an example of what a quick open cast can do, its much more available to use when yer younger, then when you are older. Specially like places in RR/Logoth.**

[AestheticDeath]

DwarvenTank, you seem to think a lot of things are immune to 1106. What all are you thinking of? And more so in areas where you cannot find something like level to get around it.

Also, the 2-4 is more often 2, sometimes 3, almost never beyond 4. And thats only on things that 'resist' the spell. For things that don't resist, its very common one cast.

And as Drew said, my experience was before the recent needed tweak that was done to 1106. But after that tweak, I heard several empath characters throw in on either side, some saying it was just as good as before.

Necromancer, what exactly makes a sorcerer more capable of hunting constructs than another pure profession?

[Necromancer]

This part makes a sorcerer more able to hunt constructs than any other:




>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +233 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +13 = +252
... and hits for 106 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the Ithzir scout's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +7 = +221
... and hits for 91 points of damage!
Spinal cord damaged by smash to the back.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +212 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +8 = +266
... and hits for 103 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters shield arm.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +227 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +80 = +323
... and hits for 137 points of damage!
Right arm ripped from socket at the elbow!
The war griffin screeches loudly as it cradles its mangled right front leg!

** As an animated Ithzir scout's sword lands home, it sucks the air surrounding it away! **
... 5 points of damage!
Back pops as muscles resist the vacuum!
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at a war griffin!
AS: +432 vs DS: +241 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +3 = +232
... and hits for 76 points of damage!
Left elbow smashed into a thousand pieces.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir herald!
AS: +432 vs DS: +377 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +18 = +113
... and hits for 8 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
The Ithzir herald takes a deep breath.
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +218 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +97 = +351
... and hits for 166 points of damage!
Weapon arm removed at the shoulder!
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +308 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +87 = +251
... and hits for 116 points of damage!
Lucky shot rips through bone and muscle sending right leg flying.
An Ithzir scout falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The scintillating white light surrounding the sword fades some.

>An animated Ithzir scout swings a troll sword at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +432 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +89 = +249
... and hits for 110 points of damage!
Spectacular slash!
The Ithzir scout's right arm is neatly amputated!
The scout's steel broadsword falls to the ground.
The Ithzir scout is stunned!

[Asha]

A clip of 440 CS on plane 1-2 critters, considering the Rift is where a sorcerer really flourishes as well, isn't exactly demonstrating the difficulties in hunting those who believe there's a problem, are talking about.
I personally don't think there's any problems lvling as a sorc. They're hard as nails. Just don't get maneuvered, screeched, winded, disarmed or kicked in the knackers.

[radamanthys]

Clouded, too.

[radamanthys]

All I know is that a 30'th level spell can be utilized by, oh, say <1% of the total sorcerer population?

The fact that it requires components for simple use is unacceptable to me. Let components have some say in the duration, lores in the level. Don't require components for what should be a field spell.

Scroll infusion, it makes sense. But what if you required a cleric to use a chrism gem to raise, every time? What if you required, say, the same amount of effort/training for an animal companion as for Nature's Touch? It's just inappropriate. While it may be powerful in a certain circumstance, it's not even remotely usable in the rest.

I have no doubts that it's a powerful spell. It's just crap in it's current state. I had Rada set up so as to be able to use it when he broke 30. I retrained, due to the shit factor of the spell. It's useful at higher levels? Great. Put it in the 750 spot then, and make a 730 spell that's at least somewhat useful at 30- as it should be.

[crb]

Presumably this was before the nerf? Bone shatter is pretty craptastic compared to its previous incarnation.

Nah, before and after the nerf, side by side, my capped empath destroys my capped sorcerer in kill rates. 1106 vs. DC, and the mana cost. I haven't even gotten the empath any MMC yet.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Not really, rangers have cheaper spells that do the same thing (generally) better. It's not useless, but it's situational now. I don't blame you for not knowing this because, as I said, rangers don't seem to whine and complain about it like certain other classes. Heck we barely even mention that we have a 50th level spell that is worthless.

That's not fair. I used to bitch about how worthless 650 was all the time. That spell fucking blows, and it's even worse when some imbecile that has never used the spell starts going on and on about how great and versatile it is. FU imbecile that never used the spell.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I have a ranger who hunts using spike thorn only, and does extremely well with it. From levels 26-38 or so, he didn't even have any armor or weapon skill training at all, just equiped him with a shield, weapon, ran around in defensive, and spiked the crap out of everything.

[StrayRogue]

Nah, before and after the nerf, side by side, my capped empath destroys my capped sorcerer in kill rates. 1106 vs. DC, and the mana cost. I haven't even gotten the empath any MMC yet.

Because hunting at the cap is an indication of how good a spell or a profession is FOR THE ENTIRE GAME.

[crb]

Probably about as equal an indication as hunting in the rift... but you don't seem to have the same crush on the original poster as you do on me eh Stay?

[Latrinsorm]

The only way to sensibly compare spells is to compare them average endroll to average endroll over many trials (ceteris paribus). Preferably, this comparison would be repeated over many creatures and levels (it stands to reason that some creatures would be more susceptible to bone shatter than mana disruption, for instance).

[Celephais]

This would also require establishing an average training path for each profession and I would also suggest establishing a "maxed hunting efficiency" training path as well, and repeat the test to compare "potential" power.

This kind of breakdown resulting in a "raw number" value of spell strength would go against what the designs of GS are implemented around... a non-CvC very "fluff" game.

The long and short of it is - you really can't compare profession to profession.

[StrayRogue]

Probably about as equal an indication as hunting in the rift... but you don't seem to have the same crush on the original poster as you do on me eh Stay?

Thats because I know the OP actually hunts and has opinions (in regards to gameplay and balance) on sub-cap grounds. You do not.

[Stunseed]

That's not fair. I used to bitch about how worthless 650 was all the time. That spell fucking blows, and it's even worse when some imbecile that has never used the spell starts going on and on about how great and versatile it is. FU imbecile that never used the spell.

Open cman list, plz.

650 added unstun ability, plz.

[Fallen]

I just want Side by Side. I don't even give a fuck about the rest of the maneuvers. Everyone should be able to learn SBS.

[Necromancer]

So basically the entire "Empath versus Sorcerer" BS (driven largely by one or two capped sorcerer players) comes down to, "We think 1106 is more powerful than any of our spells (except implosion which we don't think should count)".

Sorry kiddies, if your 719 is being outdone by 1106 in OTF you're an idiot who is screwing up some part of the keyboard process. Querthose isn't even capped (474 CS) and breezes through insta-killing most things he hits with 719. 1106 may function better on scouts and jans (not sure about this one) than what a sorcerer can muster with 705 (it doesn't take more than 2-3 casts of 705 to drop a scout, but jans are rough admittedly since they don't stun to increase the 705 damage), but you don't get to be in god mode for everything.

Though the point about non-capped hunting is important; I'll point out that lower level sorcerers don't seem to be complaining about the comparisons. Lower level hunters who rely on Bone Shatter to hunt have serious mana problems that sorcerers, who can hunt with a 2 mana spell all of their life if they choose, can't relate to.

This isn't elementary school anymore; stop whining. Even if 1106 were everything a few nitpickers keep screaming it is (who, as it has been rightfully critiqued, really only know the spell in its post-cap incarnation), sorcerers aren't hurting in the least in post-cap hunting options and have the luxury of the majority of the capped creatures being DC fodder.

[El Burro]

Sorcs don't fight side by side, they slink to the back and hurl brain waves over the real fighters up front. No SBS for you!

[Latrinsorm]

This would also require establishing an average training path for each profession and I would also suggest establishing a "maxed hunting efficiency" training path as well, and repeat the test to compare "potential" power.I don't think we'd have to determine an average training path (which is lucky because it would be impossible). We could just do no auxies and maxxed auxies.
This kind of breakdown resulting in a "raw number" value of spell strength would go against what the designs of GS are implemented around... a non-CvC very "fluff" game.To be honest I'm surprised this hasn't been done before. Do pures really not have an ultranerd like me for squares?
The long and short of it is - you really can't compare profession to profession.I agree wholeheartedly, but we can still compare spells.

Sorcerers should definitely get a CMAN Slink rather than SBS. Why not make it a guild-based maneuver? That way we can get something like this in the Small Park:

A shaft of pale moonlight slices through the dark mists and illuminates a grim figure as he slinks in, piercing the moonlight like a stiletto pierces flesh pierced by a stiletto, casting a long shadow on the ground ahead. Like a stiletto. It is clear from the haunted look in this man's burning eyes that he has studied and mastered the dark arts of necromancy, and his eyes burn darkly.

Sorcerer just went north.

A shaft of pale moonlight slices through the dark mists and illuminates a grim figure as he slinks in, piercing the moonlight like a stiletto pierces flesh pierced by a stiletto, casting a long shadow on the ground ahead. Like a stiletto. It is clear from the haunted look in this man's burning eyes that he has studied and mastered the dark arts of necromancy, and his eyes burn darkly.

[crb]

So basically the entire "Empath versus Sorcerer" BS (driven largely by one or two capped sorcerer players) comes down to, "We think 1106 is more powerful than any of our spells (except implosion which we don't think should count)".

Sorry kiddies, if your 719 is being outdone by 1106 in OTF you're an idiot who is screwing up some part of the keyboard process. Querthose isn't even capped (474 CS) and breezes through insta-killing most things he hits with 719. 1106 may function better on scouts and jans (not sure about this one) than what a sorcerer can muster with 705 (it doesn't take more than 2-3 casts of 705 to drop a scout, but jans are rough admittedly since they don't stun to increase the 705 damage), but you don't get to be in god mode for everything.

Though the point about non-capped hunting is important; I'll point out that lower level sorcerers don't seem to be complaining about the comparisons. Lower level hunters who rely on Bone Shatter to hunt have serious mana problems that sorcerers, who can hunt with a 2 mana spell all of their life if they choose, can't relate to.

This isn't elementary school anymore; stop whining. Even if 1106 were everything a few nitpickers keep screaming it is (who, as it has been rightfully critiqued, really only know the spell in its post-cap incarnation), sorcerers aren't hurting in the least in post-cap hunting options and have the luxury of the majority of the capped creatures being DC fodder.

Stop whining about what you perceive as whining from others, gosh, Just eat your dang quesadilla!

Seriously, Jesse, do you ever quit? What is up with this tear you're on lately? Haven't gotten laid in awhile? Afraid ceiling cat is going to catch you masturbating?

I suppose you know more about hunting OTF as an empath, or a sorcerer than me right? I suppose I suck at hunting OTF because I've only hunted it since the day it opened? I must not know what I'm doing considering I haven't been killed by a critter in that place since March of 2006. Right... I must be hunting all wrong...

Do you think maybe, just maybe, having hunted a sorcerer and empath in there, and since my empath capped this summer hunting them side by side, every hunt, since like August, that maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about when I compare the two?

You've been taking this side since before 1106 got downtweaked. Everyone in the game (well, every sane person) knew that it got way overpowered at high levels, all the GMs knew it, and it was downtweaked. If you really thought it was fine then, I'm pretty sure that should negate any opinion you have about spell balance.

I don't claim to have experience with a comparison at lower levels, but don't tell me I'm wrong about high levels. I've done hundreds of side by side hunts now with an empath and a sorcerer and 1106 is more powerful, still, than 1115, 719, 705, and of course 702. My empath doesn't even have any MMC yet. When you factor in the mana cost, the power is huge.

Not that I think it should be downtweaked, but I'm going to have to take exception to your claim that 719/705 are better options and do not need any (more) lore modification.

Not that your opinion matters anyways, I'll bet you $100 (and I know you need the money) that after the elemental/sorcerer lore review both spells, and 702, are tweaked so that lores or mana controls provide bonuses, or more bonuses in the case of DC. I feel pretty safe in this bet considering almost every other direct damage attack spell (I can't even think of a single exception right now) is lore modified.

Deal?

[crb]

Oh, as far as 1115 goes, DC is definitely better than that spell. I hardly cast it (why bother when 1106 is better at almost 1/3rd the mana).

[Axhinde]

How many effin stilettos do we need?

[Fallen]

Not that your opinion matters anyways, I'll bet you $100 (and I know you need the money) that after the elemental/sorcerer lore review both spells, and 702, are tweaked so that lores or mana controls provide bonuses, or more bonuses in the case of DC. I feel pretty safe in this bet considering almost every other direct damage attack spell (I can't even think of a single exception right now) is lore modified.

Deal? >>

I hope such is the case. This has nothing to do with envy, it is simply the fact that these spells suffer from a lack of a lore driven power increase structure.

What happened to all the rants of people who favored components and such to spells that sorcery is SUPPOSED to be complicated? It is supposed to be tough at first, and supposed to be a class that grows into their own? Complicated spell mechanics are (or it looks like, were) our bag.

Shrug

[Necromancer]

I suppose you know more about hunting OTF as an empath, or a sorcerer than me right? I suppose I suck at hunting OTF because I've only hunted it since the day it opened? I must not know what I'm doing considering I haven't been killed by a critter in that place since March of 2006. Right... I must be hunting all wrong...


Deal?

No Chris, you don't 'suck' at OTF, you're just a self-indulgent pisser who moans to moan and who skews his opinions to match that urge. Your tirades are all started because you choose to look at a situation in just the right way so that you can have something to shriek about. You disregard entireties of spell and hunting situations, and when it comes to your opinions you are absolutely incapable of (and uninterested in) objective and realistic assessments.

You've proven it time and time again. Like many others in the game, I'm utterly exhausted with your constant bitching and moaning and complaining and screaming. For one fucking week, why don't you try posting only positive things about the game and your profession? Let's see how that works out for you and the rest of us.

No really. For the love of god, try it.

[Necromancer]

There's a big distinction between the use of components to add depth and the use of lores to add power, Evarin. Regardless of how one falls along the ideological lines of each, they're not comparable.

[crb]

No Chris, you don't 'suck' at OTF, you're just a self-indulgent pisser who moans to moan and who skews his opinions to match that urge. Your tirades are all started because you choose to look at a situation in just the right way so that you can have something to shriek about. You disregard entireties of spell and hunting situations, and when it comes to your opinions you are absolutely incapable of (and uninterested in) objective and realistic assessments.

You've proven it time and time again. Like many others in the game, I'm utterly exhausted with your constant bitching and moaning and complaining and screaming. For one fucking week, why don't you try posting only positive things about the game and your profession? Let's see how that works out for you and the rest of us.

No really. For the love of god, try it.
Ummm... why did you post about yourself?

[Celephais]

I haven't been killed by a critter in that place since March of 2006.
And... end argument.

[Necromancer]

And... end argument.

Yup.

[crb]

Why? Because the fact that I'm post cap, have had 6-7 years to hone my hunting methods in OTF, and have half a billion silvers worth of abnormally good toys that help me hunt, mean that sorcerers are overpowered?

I knew someone was going to take that bait.

Do you measure rogues based on Tsin's abilities or bards based on Soulpieced? Wizards based on Vrannar or clerics based on Naseer?

I died a ton before I capped.

[Necromancer]

Right, because every other sorcerer in OTF is really struggling without your amazing 7 years of hunting experience (If anyone hasn't told you, by the way, we have a new cap hunting area. You should try it)

The sorcerers aren't hurting in OTF.

Though, no one is. Yet everyone is challenged. Sounds like some good profession balancing to me.

[Fallen]

Haha. Someone should tell Amiowell that sorcerers aren't supposed to die in OTF as they are too overpowered. She must have missed that memo.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

God damn sorcerers whine alot.

[Necromancer]

Wasn't Ami purchased? (I could be wrong about that, please don't take this as me trying to start rumors)

[Latrinsorm]

don't tell me I'm wrong about high levels.I would use the word "unjustified" because although you've hunted the two "side by side, every hunt, since like August", you don't exactly come across as the most impartial, scientific guy in the world.

[Latrinsorm]

How many effin stilettos do we need?MAS

[Kefka]

Also hurts that most critters have a higher td vs. sorcerer cs spells. Elven wizard wife has no problem flaming eidolons while her human sorcerer husband 5 trains higher has to curse them so he can land spells with a greater level of success.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

TD vs. Paladin FTW

[Warriorbird]

Sorcerors are weak...if you're a moron. They have more than one of the most unbalancing spells in the game...and that's not even including Implosion.

[RichardCranium]

Ummm... why did you post about yourself?

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT BOUNCES OFF ME AND STICKS TO YOU.

[Outdrsyguy1]

I call BS, there's no way in hell any sorc hasn't died in a year+ in OTF without super gear. Your telling me they've never failed a gryphon pick you up and drop you on your head trick? Are all sorc's walking around in 10x VHCP leather breastplate in there or something? Just curious how you can possibly not ever get smacked by all the maneuvers in there and spirit dispells...

[StrayRogue]

Do you measure rogues based on Tsin's abilities or bards based on Soulpieced? Wizards based on Vrannar or clerics based on Naseer?



The sad thing is you measure sorcerer's based on your own narrow view.

And just to add, OTF isn't hard. GS in general is no challenge. It's just annoying. Skill plays no, or very little, part to the game. Insta-death maneuvers are almost as stupid as warlocks.

[crb]

I call BS, there's no way in hell any sorc hasn't died in a year+ in OTF without super gear. Your telling me they've never failed a gryphon pick you up and drop you on your head trick? Are all sorc's walking around in 10x VHCP leather breastplate in there or something? Just curious how you can possibly not ever get smacked by all the maneuvers in there and spirit dispells...
I said I had super gear.

Also, I've had 6,7 years to get pissed off at war griffins etc. So, in all my training/item seeking since then, I've sought skills/items to mitigate what kills me. For instance rather than triple train more to get a higher CS with most post cap TPs, I get defensive physical skills to make up for my profession's weaknesses. You put that much time an effort to avoiding a few specific manuevers and you do alright.

[crb]

The sad thing is you measure sorcerer's based on your own narrow view.

And just to add, OTF isn't hard. GS in general is no challenge. It's just annoying. Skill plays no, or very little, part to the game. Insta-death maneuvers are almost as stupid as warlocks.
:violin:

I <3 Stay.

[StrayRogue]

Shame no one loves you.

[DwarvenTank]

DwarvenTank, you seem to think a lot of things are immune to 1106. What all are you thinking of? And more so in areas where you cannot find something like level to get around it.QUOTE]

Non corp creaturse, Stone creatures, golems, etc. plenty of creatures are immune to 1106, and when its 1/3rd for your warding spells and 1/2 of your worthwhile killing spells thats a huge hinderance. Plane 5 you can only kill one of the two creatures, bowels elementals are immune and I believe illoke and krynch being stone are immune to 1106? Teras temple has the elementals and dissemblers that are immune to 1106 so 1/4th the creatures there. Thats pretty limited IMO.

[QUOTE=Ash;660295]A clip of 440 CS on plane 1-2 critters, considering the Rift is where a sorcerer really flourishes as well, isn't exactly demonstrating the difficulties in hunting those who believe there's a problem, are talking about.
I personally don't think there's any problems lvling as a sorc. They're hard as nails. Just don't get maneuvered, screeched, winded, disarmed or kicked in the knackers.

My sorcerer hunts planes 1-3 and the 440 CS is at like level to most of the creatures on plane 2, one of the most difficult planes in the rift, and its cake for my sorcerer. DC/disinergrate the undead (which boneshatter cant touch), 706 then pick apart the worms at my leisure, and run from the witches.

As for the rift being a place that sorcerrers really flourish, sure they do great there, just like OTF is a great place for empaths since there is nothing immune to 1106 there. Take a sorcerer and empath to the teras temple and I'll bet the sorcerer is much better off.

I do hope that we get lores tied into at least 702 and 705 in the reveiw, I miss being able to fully disinergrate things with 705, and was pretty bitter to only see only see 715 on this most recent review. Even if we dont, I still feel sorcerers are much better hunters do to having no creature immunities to deal with and multiple different spells to use on different occassions vs the 3 clerics and empaths get to pick from.

[crb]

Most of your complaints dwarventank, your main one being 1106 immunities, were addressed by the release of wither.

[DwarvenTank]

I dont have complaints, I'm saying that sorcerers are not even close to being the weakest pure. Having a total of 3 warding attack spells (1 of which sucks, 1 of which is very limited, 1 of which is costly) by no way makes empaths more powerful than sorcerers.

[justincredible]

Haven't seen a maneuver rant in a while...

If it doesn't stun and has a maneuver then I'm toast. Plain and simple. I was 10 trainings higher than roa'ter wormlings and they stunned/killed me on a regular basis. Low encumbered dark elf with decent dex and agility.

They took away our CS, I could deal. They took away our crits, I could deal. They gave us the worst spell ever (725, maybe 650 is worse...), I could deal. But now it seems they are on a bent to give everything that moves maneuvers which we have no defense against. They turned us into pansy attrition based plinkers but are doing their best to make it as dangerous as possible to stand in front of a creature. I refuse to beg rangers for mobiles and wizards for blurs.

True enough that we have disabling spells but during the middle years (25-60), in which I am stuck firmly, it is impossible to 410,708,711 everything that walks into the room and still have mana to kill it. My sorcerer has the most limited hunting choices of any of the characters I play, my 30ish ranger hunts better than he does (are they ever going to fix ambush?)

I could 720 everything I ran into and that may work, but then I would continue to be broke as all hell (buy my main-gauche) unless I just treasure hunted on the side, which slows my xp gain which sucks and no other class has to do. I can't even do that well because spiders half my training can web me...

725 most useless spell ever. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!!! I've only used it once when it was first released. Complete trash, throw it away and start over. Forcing us to damn near master a guild skill in order to bring them into town drives me crazy. I'm 50 and have 4 ranks in illusions and don't plan on getting any more, almost as bad as alchemy but without any real benefit. And even then, what’s the RP point of having a cool little demon that no-one can see. We're sorcerers, let’s just murder the constable or start imploding buildings around town until they change the law.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Haven't seen a maneuver rant in a while...

If it doesn't stun and has a maneuver then I'm toast. Plain and simple. I was 10 trainings higher than roa'ter wormlings and they stunned/killed me on a regular basis. Low encumbered dark elf with decent dex and agility.


Oh, if you are getting killed by roa'ters even though you are higher level, then your class definitely needs some buffs.

All jokes aside, has anyone of any class that hunted roa'ters for any extended period of time NOT been killed by them? The GM's have even admitted that it's a relatively unbalanced attack that doesn't pay much attention to level, and yet people still use abilities like the ones that minotaurs, roa'ters, and Illoke have as their justification for why they are underpowered. Crazy.

[Some Rogue]

And wtf..."fix ambush"? It's already been nerfed. Fix archery yes, leave ambush alone.

[Katt]

Oh, if you are getting killed by roa'ters even though you are higher level, then your class definitely needs some buffs.

All jokes aside, has anyone of any class that hunted roa'ters for any extended period of time NOT been killed by them? The GM's have even admitted that it's a relatively unbalanced attack that doesn't pay much attention to level, and yet people still use abilities like the ones that minotaurs, roa'ters, and Illoke have as their justification for why they are underpowered. Crazy.

I believe the only class that can be ok there are Warriors and thats mostly due to redux and such.

And I agree with Tea, just because you can't handle roaters it shouldn't be a big deal. You don't have to hunt them, I had many characters skip over them. Many people deal with things like skipping over constructs in the barrier because their magic can't kill them. You can't be the best at everything but that doesn't mean you suck.

[justincredible]

You have missed the point.

It's not just roa'ters its anything with a manuver attack. Kiramon, maybe, but anything else with a manuver takes a lot of mana to hunt safely. Not just manuvers but throw spikethorn, boil and all those other manuver spells in there as well.

Every other class (empath's don't count because I say so) has access to dodge or a spell which increases dodge ranks to protect them from these damn manuvers, about time sorcerers were brought up to speed. I hate spending hunts praying that X in front of me will not use its manuver while I wear it down with MD.

[Sean of the Thread]

Lol I gotta say.. Xyelin was killed by plenty of fucking manuevers from things 50-60 levels lower... usually because I was cash hunting and about 683810 lbs of shit on me I guess.

Retard move on my part.

[Katt]

How do some sorcerers have problems and some kick the ass out of shit?

Perhaps we need to have those kick ass sorcerers step up and teach the less experienced.

[Celephais]

I hate spending hunts praying that X in front of me will not use its manuver while I wear it down with MD.
So would the game be a lot better if nothing could kill you? Grow some balls, do what everyone else does, and get over it. Every class has its vunerabilities, if the only way you know how to overcome them is to bitch, well, I'm looking forward to seeing your name pop up on the death list.

[DwarvenTank]

You have missed the point.

It's not just roa'ters its anything with a manuver attack. Kiramon, maybe, but anything else with a manuver takes a lot of mana to hunt safely. Not just manuvers but throw spikethorn, boil and all those other manuver spells in there as well.

Every other class (empath's don't count because I say so) has access to dodge or a spell which increases dodge ranks to protect them from these damn manuvers, about time sorcerers were brought up to speed. I hate spending hunts praying that X in front of me will not use its manuver while I wear it down with MD.

703 is your friend, and its cheap. 708 is also great if you ward reliably. I blow the legs off all the n'ecare so they dont tackle me, arms are good for spell casters. 706 if its stunnable, every aivren I see gets mind jolted so it doesnt wing flap me into offense for 20 seconds of RT, 6 mana for a 30-130 sec stun. For things like Roa'ters, everyone dies to them, not everyone has 711 to keep them in constant RT to kill, sure its mana intensive but if you HAVE to kill them it works.

As for spells to help defend manuevers arent sorcerers suppost to eventually get some type of self phase ability? Last I read they where but I havent read the sorcerer forums on the play.net in months cause toooooo many posts to read every day. I hope we get that ability soon it will help alot but its not something we need to be viable.

[kheldarin]

You guys are making me want to rejoin the game again for the 6th fucking time.

[BigWorm]

Cry me a river about Sorcerer's weakness against manuever attacks. You are nearly immune to warding spells, bolts, and melee attacks. No class should be immune to all types of attacks. As a rogue, I get fucking OWNED by warding spells. Even if I spell tank as much as I can wear, I can still get easily warded.

Besides, pretty much everyone gets killed by maneuver attacks. As far as the cmans are concerned, its either know it or get dominated by it. Even being almost fully 2x in cmans and over 2x in dodge, unless you have at least rank 3 in a cman, you will probably get pounded by it against like-level foes. And for roa'ter/minotaur/etc attacks, as someone else said, those fuck pretty much everybody up.