Virilneus, Sorcery, and Game Balance

[Necromancer]

Seems a side-thread started in the "Sorcery Gurus" thread regarding Virilneus's latest tirade (petition pending!!), Virilneus himself, and game balance as it relates to sorcerers (could it be true? Are sorcerers systematically denied justice when it comes to game balance?).

If anyone wants to continue that thread or pick up on it, I've created this start. If not, it can just die with the Guru thread.

I've made my personal opinion on these subjects known in the previous thread.

[Davenshire]

Woohoo!

Seriously, I am sooo sick of the "plight of the sorcerer" threads. STFU already.

Especially Viril n' puss. you summed it up great in yer last post Necro, and it isn't liek anyone can say "you don't know what you are talking about, you've never played a sorcerer."

I adventure with several sorcerers of different ages with my characters. I've never made one, I think maybe what soured me to them is all the pussing on the forums. They are all spectacular, and they often tend to throw it in my face. :)

I might have mentioned this before, but back when I first started back up in GS, I thought the wizards, clerics, and other professions could use someone like viril n' puss to maybe push for changes or work done on their professions. I quickly changed my mind when I noticed he never shuts the fuck up, and contantly pusses ...CONSTANTLY.

and then you read shit like this:

http://www.virilneus.com/sorcery_development.php
http://www.virilneus.com/clerics.php

....

I mean really, just shut the hell up already. Do only the most boisterous, anal, cry asses play sorcerers? I don't see this except soradically in any other folders.

I guess some people need to just take a break from playing one profession, or maybe distant themselves from GS when they become so "impassioned." it gets well past rediculous after awhile.

Sorcerers are currently fine. All this pushing for improvements to spells that are already powerful is crazy. All this pushing for more work done on sorcerers, give it a rest. a lot of other professions could use the work. Or point it out once, and stop harping on it. DRAGGING it into other folders, or using any opening in any folder to repeat a gripe.

[Stanley Burrell]

As a warrior + mostly square player, I've been... Comfortable with the ideology of sorcerers always being infinitely more advantageous whilst hunting and pretty much everything mechanic-wise not related to wtrick sheathmaking. I've gotten used to nerf after square nerf.

The main reason why sorcerers are in such a predicament now is because empuffs are way more catered to. And when you're a sorcerer with an ego, you can't just let healers wearing 30 pin-worns get more leverage than you.

When I first saw this, I thought it was someone who was complaining about sorcies' ridiculous battle prowess over other professions, aside from healers. Plight of sorcerers? WTF, mate? ^^

[Necromancer]

Heh, I've never read V's diatribe on clerics before. But, to be fair, it was obviously written a while ago.

It's not that there isn't some serious dev work needed on sorcerers. 725 and 730 are both woefully incomplete and in need of serious attention.

But after the two years of hyper-dev on sorcery, it's definitely time to put energy into the other professions. How long have wizards been waiting on that second level 40 spell now? Clerics *still* don't have a complete spell list in their primary from levels 1-20.

And, unfortunately, the zealots of sorcery (I guess I'm one of them, heh, but not in this instance) have warped all sense of game balance and profession-based difference that any time they see a profession that can do something sorcery cannot, or can do something better than sorcery can, they immediately start shrieking "UNFAIR! UNFAIR!". They just don't get that all of the professions have to have advantages and disadvantages, *and* that it's not up to the players of sorcery to determine where those advantages and disadvantages lie.

[Stanley Burrell]

Heh, I've never read V's diatribe on clerics before. But, to be fair, it was obviously written a while ago.

It's not that there isn't some serious dev work needed on sorcerers. 725 and 730 are both woefully incomplete and in need of serious attention.

But after the two years of hyper-dev on sorcery, it's definitely time to put energy into the other professions. How long have wizards been waiting on that second level 40 spell now? Clerics *still* don't have a complete spell list in their primary from levels 1-20.

And, unfortunately, the zealots of sorcery (I guess I'm one of them, heh, but not in this instance) have warped all sense of game balance and profession-based difference that any time they see a profession that can do something sorcery cannot, or can do something better than sorcery can, they immediately start shrieking "UNFAIR! UNFAIR!". They just don't get that all of the professions have to have advantages and disadvantages, *and* that it's not up to the players of sorcery to determine where those advantages and disadvantages lie.'

I remember a certain GM being praised for cleric development and when questioned by the less enthused, she basically remarked about how a certain spell was a cleric's best friend. And it was an entirely less-than-erudite statement.

At that point, I felt slightly less retarded for playing my main char' as a warrior who hadn't converted. This was two or three years ago. We need the likes of Stealth's dev'ing back, bah. Bah, so sayeth I.

Bah.

[Jayvn]

http://medjeti.com/img/wahmbulance.jpg
HALP sorcerers aren't the uberest 719ing profession nowz!

[Necromancer]

Um Jayvn...did you actually read any of the posts in the thread? <g>

[Stretch]

At least they stopped with that 'Make 750 priority number one' signature shit.

My only beef with Virilneus was that he defaulted to assuming that I was a bought character based on one post on the officials where I disagreed with him. Other than that, I guess I don't read the sorc boards enough to see what everyone else is complaining about.

Hakwea sucks, though. He's worse than GSWIZARD was.

[Some Rogue]

Woohoo!
I mean really, just shut the hell up already. Do only the most boisterous, anal, cry asses play sorcerers? I don't see this except soradically in any other folders.


I think Keraa may be vying for the title in the empath/major spirit category.




My only beef with Virilneus was that he defaulted to assuming that I was a bought character based on one post on the officials where I disagreed with him. Other than that, I guess I don't read the sorc boards enough to see what everyone else is complaining about.



And that's my whole problem with him, if you don't agree with him, you're a fool, you don't know anything, you suck at this game and are blinded by the favortisim shown to your class. I wouldn't mind him so much if he stuck to the sorc folder, but he's in the magic/spell system one now, looking for ways to nerf other people's spells.

That's a sure way to convince GM's that you're right. Start being a big baby and crying about what everyone else has. /sarcasm

[Necromancer]

Yeah, when you disagree with V, you can almost hear the "YOU ARE DEAD TO ME!" and feel the seething gaze. It invariably comes down to you being a 'foolio' (You don't agree with me, therefore you 'just don't get it') or to the fact that you haven't played as long as he has.

Hakwea's suggestions for the profession are fine, but he wouldn't know a cogent argument if it bit him in the ass and said "SHUT UP AND STOP POSTING!"

[Jayvn]

Um Jayvn...did you actually read any of the posts in the thread? <g>

Of course not, I've read at least 2 or 3 of viri's fix this ideas.. 2 or 3 too many. I could care less if he was praising something(ya right) or complaining how something new was broken. Who gives a fuck if a class is stronger than another game balance is retarded. I picked a wizard back in like 98 from the noob warrior because I wanted something that was more of a challenge to play.. yes back then 10 second prep times were harder than stance dancing. Ya all the new empath shit is cool but it goes completely against the idea of an empath. Clerics should raise dead and turn undead. Sorcs cause grief and pain, Warriors hit shit with big sticks..

Why does everyone want a single class of characters to choose from with a different name? as soon as someone gets something cool, instead of everyone going, hey nice addition to the game, they begin with oh it's not fair, they get all the good stuff. Not that any of you will have read any of this because i'm posting another pic of the dancing alizee...

http://www.team-azerty.com/images/news/106/Alys%E9e.gif

[Davenshire]

I found virils posts in the empath thread, and also the general spell casting folders.... he is everywhere, maybe he will snap and be sent off to a rubber room.

Elanthia would benefit from his departure.

[Soulpieced]

You're more dead to me than your dead mother.

[Jayvn]

and then you read shit like this:

http://www.virilneus.com/sorcery_development.php
http://www.virilneus.com/clerics.php



Damnit, make that 5 things I've read too many of...

[Davenshire]

Why does everyone want a single class of characters to choose from with a different name? as soon as someone gets something cool, instead of everyone going, hey nice addition to the game, they begin with oh it's not fair, they get all the good stuff.
[/img]

Wow ... EXACTLY.

There are just to many sad sack assholes in the lands that this is there only outlet. They need to find a new game, go out into the sunlight, something. Yelling foul once in ahwile is fine and dandy, but 24-7...jesus.

[Necromancer]

HEY, I made that point first! Jayvn stole from me. =(

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Empaths are the new sorcerers. Get with the program.

[Jayvn]

I agree with you, but my statement had a dancing alizee so it was better :)

[bluefish]

As a sorc since '95 or so, I feel more lukewarm about our spell circle than ever, even in spite of the recent developments. I feel like although more stuff was added, so much was tweaked that there is no spell that is truly outstanding like the old DC/old MD. I did just return 2 months ago after a 4 year break, and I have yet to cast 725 or 730 and likely never will, which is 2 upper level spells I have no use for. Demons and dead critters just don't excite me in the least, and if 750 is filled with a demon spell too, I won't have any use for that either. I don't play a demonic, evil character who worships Sheru or whatnot. Nothing even close to that. I am quite appreciative for 740, but other than that, I only see 720 as a truly class defining spell. (Edit: Forgot 712, which is quite nice too) 410 works just as well as anything we have to disable something and doesn't require warding. Better (IMO) versions of what used to be our defining attack spells (705/719) are now in the empath spell circle.

The other day I was in Illoke mystics...a freshly genned one had a 250+ TD. I died (;)) and my rescuer legged it with a 190 DS. My jaw dropped. Up until now, I've faithfully used 702, 705 and 719, but I am reconsidering. Fully spelled, my CS is around 300, but my bolt AS is right about the same. I'll probably be a more efficient hunter with 410 + 118/111 than anything in my own circle. Plus, 111 doesn't fumble, nor do I get hindrance from doubles on it, the AvDs are usually very good, and it can hit multiple things. That vs. a warding spell that will do nothing but waste mana 25 percent of the time or more. As soon as I get web bolt, I will likely be using 700 circle very infrequently, and when I do it'll be 708 or 711 to disable something immune to ewave for some reason. The main setback would be I really wouldn't feel like a sorcerer. But like I said, I just feel so incredibly futile and lukewarm about pecking away all day with 702 and 705, which cannot be strengthened with lores. Sadly 719 costs too much to use consistently and doesn't crit nearly as often as it used to.

As far as Virilneus, I actually agree with him on most of his major beefs (foraging, clerics, etc), but he could probably have some more tact in going about saying what he has to say.

Sorcerers are still quite viable, but I find it funny that the implementation of 725 and 730 means a lot less to me than a tweak to 118.

[7Seconds]

>you're a fool, you don't know anything, you suck at this game and are blinded by the favortisim shown to your class

Thats actualy my only hang up with him, I see things in the same light as him from time to time, and even jump in to support but, if you don't 100% agree with him your just another no-nothing chump.

[7Seconds]

>Bluefish

I'm right there with you, 740 is the only post 20 spell my character uses... sure I carry the Animate components, and the Demon runes on him, and even know how to use/make them...but to me they are little more then fluff toss to the sorcery profession to keep the players from going into a full scale riot...think V only ALL sorcerer players are like that, it has happend before.

As for the recent railling of V, I fully support the CS adjustment he is trying so ardently to see happen, and yes haveing a bit or alot more tact in the way he presents his side of things would go along way for alot of things.

I'm more interested in hunting w/ MnE and MnS spells then the 700 circle...kind of sad realy but hey if the horse is blue, its blue, maybe a dull grey if your color blind though.

[Asha]

Don't use fire spirit on illoke.
Sorc hunting strategists mostly agree that 410, 708 right arm then plink with 702 and / 705 is the best and definately safest way to batter them.
Once mana isn't a problem 719 is incredibly good against them providing you can get a nice roll constantly.
The effects of hot then cold or vise versa kicks the shit out of them.

I agree with Bluefish's post too.

[Gan]

Heh, I've never read V's diatribe on clerics before. But, to be fair, it was obviously written a while ago.

As one who's primary is now a cleric, I disagree completely with V's diatribe on clerics. And if it were true, it was a while ago since the armor rant he's on is wrong.

And what spell is the cleric's best friend for manuever attacks?

:puzzled:

And V needs to get with the times, its now Gemstone IV, not Gemstone III as stated on his logo...

:lol:

Personally I think V's nose is bent out of shape because Naseer pretty much owns V in every category.

[Latrinsorm]

But like I said, I just feel so incredibly futile and lukewarm about pecking away all day with 702 and 705, which cannot be strengthened with lores.Do you really want one or two spells that work best on everything? Doesn't that sound incredibly boring to you?
Demons and dead critters just don't excite me in the leastThat said, you can recognize that those sort of things are sorcerer-defining, right? Demon summoning is no more evil than making a howitzer.

[Allereli]

A couple of weeks ago I put Viril and Herod on my ignore list for the Officials, it's made the boards so much more pleasant to read. If they actually have something meaningful to say, someone else will sum it up nicely in a reply.

He's just as pompous in game. Not sure if he was purposefully IC that way in Aller's run in with him in the Illi guild last week, but he ended up shoving both his feet in his mouth in a quick two minute exchange.

:tool:

[Celephais]

That said, you can recognize that those sort of things are sorcerer-defining, right? Demon summoning is no more evil than making a howitzer.
That was the first thing I thought when I read his post... you're a sorcerer, which in GS terms, that's their meat and potatoes.

Still sorcerers are incredibly powerful and diverse classes, who have some very unique abilities. All of their abilities might not be combat viable, but there aren't a whole lot of situations where the sorcerer as a whole isn't combat viable. Sure everyone wants a little spice added to their class, but there are tons of to-dos on the devs plate, and a class that isn't boring, and isn't underpowered shouldn't expect to be at the head of the line. I'm not saying don't get in line, just that crying about it doesn't help the whole "whiney sorcs" mentality.

[Necromancer]

Celephais hit it on the nose, as far as I'm concerned. Not everything revolves around your combat prowess, NOT that sorcerers have anything to complain about on that front. The profession is a walking bag of tricks. No other profession can claim the ability to do so many random things. The ability to unlock and infuse scrolls- thereby giving yourself access to nearly every other 1-20 spell in GS. A pet spell that give phantom pick pocket ranks and attack thieves, the ability to prevent or break sanctuaries, acts as an extra mana battery, holds items and thousands of coins during a hunt, and that can find hidden and invisible people. The only profession that can boast cross-realms transport. The ability to animate the game's most powerful creatures to act as Singing Claidhmores or to provide defensive spellups normally outside of your spell circles. The profession boasts the most powerful maneuver spell in the game as well as the most versatile combat spell list.

The list goes on. Sorcery doesn't get to be the be-all-end-all of the combat scene (which sorcerers *still* seem to be adjusting to), but a well-trained sorcerer played by someone who knows the profession can do just about anything and is a perfect accessory in just about any situation.

Personally, when I hear a player of a sorcerer try to boil the profession down to 702, 705, 711 I just feel sorry for them. They're missing out on the best parts of sorcery. And when I hear people downplay spells like 711 and 719, I can't help but chuckle at them. It tells me that they don't really know what it's like to play a sorcerer, they just play a warrior with twisted wands in bad armor.

[Axhinde]

Edit: Nevermind. Doh.

[Androidpk]

Excellent posts from Celephais and Necromancer. I WISH warriors had even half the versatility that sorcerers had. Just out of curiousity, what are Virilneus' main complaints about the sorcerer class anyways?

[Necromancer]

That the GMs don't cater to his personal whims?

[Fallen]

His posts usually stem from perceived disadvantages with being a hybrid class, which is namely a lower CS then other professions. Beyond that, it is usually arguments as to what to do with our remaining spell slots, and/or certain spells which should come up for review.

[Necromancer]

or level compression, or foraging, or clerics, or empaths, or FoF, or ambush, or....

[Methais]

http://virilneus.com/riftsong.htm

[Fallen]

or level compression, or foraging, or clerics, or empaths, or FoF, or ambush, or....


Excellent posts from Celephais and Necromancer. I WISH warriors had even half the versatility that sorcerers had. Just out of curiousity, what are Virilneus' main complaints about the *sorcerer* class anyways?

See above.

[Shifted]

Empaths are the new sorcerers. Get with the program.


Not unless they get MnM

Oh, did ya'll read these?
http://virilneus.com/lichform.php
http://virilneus.com/animatedead.php

[Warriorbird]

Virilneus = Lohlem without credibility or acceptance. Hopefully he stays that way.

[Methais]

Gemstone sure is serious business for Virilneus. I wonder what he looks like irl.

[Anebriated]

THE BOTTOM LINE - If clerics want to hunt like sorcerers, they should have training costs like sorcerers. If clerics want to hunt like semi's, they should have training costs like semi's. If clerics are able to keep their cheap physical training costs then they shouldn't be allowed to reallocate into paladins .

Alright... I found that kinda funny. SORCS =! CLERICS. He literally tries to compare sorcs to every class and every time there is a difference in favor of the other class he calls for a nerf. I play a Warrior and a Cleric...

[crb]

Gemstone sure is serious business for Virilneus. I wonder what he looks like irl.

I'm 6'5, 195, successful small business owner. I have brown hair, a goatee, brown eyes. I dress casually most of the time, jeans and a t shirt, or a sweater in the winter. I don't play Gemstone all that much compared to most of you, I usually only hunt my weekly gift. I have a 32 inch waist and a 34 inch inseam, that fulfill your masturbation fantasy enough?

I really hate bitches who complain about me behind me back without posting any sort of identification, atleast let me know your character name or officials name so I can be sure to treat you with the same amount of respect as you treat me.

Then, Jesse, the little bitch ringleader of this thread. He has mental issues, at one point he through he was my friend and in IMs complained about not being able to concentrate because he was off his meds. He's extremely OCD, and probably the biggest fanboy sorcery has ever known.

He posts these ridiculously long spell ideas for sorcerers that are all messaging and no functionality and with no regards for balance, he gets a hard on for stupid spell effects that'd make his character look cool, mostly rehashes from books or movies. It is extremely annoying and every time he gets shot down he gets a little more bitter (hence, coming here to complain about me like I'm the Paris Hilton of gemstone).

Then have you ever seen him perform at a merchant?

Then he, like a few other twits, tries to insult me by saying I'm going to start a petition. My petition on the gs4 experience changes was signed by over 500 unique players, and it worked. Bringing it up makes me proud, it isn't insulting.

Allereli, I don't know what your deal is, but thanks for atleast posting with your name. You've only been posting in the sorcerer forum a short time, I've only ran into you once in game, I'm guessing you're just another noob highschooler who is spending all your free time powerhunting to get to where you are so quickly. I'm in the guild, minding my own business, grinding away in a timesink and you come up and start making conversation, weird conversation like we're old friends instead of strangers. I don't understand how I "put my foot in my mouth" because I more or less ignored you, responding the bare minimum I could, until you went away.

To the idiot who posted links to things on my site, those are really old, which you would realize if you read them. The sorcery development one for instance outlines a world in which sorcerers are missing all spells above level 20, and 3 spells below level 20. You may not have been playing a long enough time to know when that was, but it was a long time ago. I made that site I think in 1997. Even a child should be able to tell that the title is "Virilneus' Gemstone III Site" not "Virilneus' Gemstone IV Site"

Do you think I was wrong for lobbying for more development resources when sorcery had the least number of implemented spells, even less than bards?

As for clerics, that argument still holds well. You can go way back (or, atleast I can) and remember when it was said that clerics would have more physical prowess, not for any mechanical or balance reason, but because they were seen traditionally as being hybrid weapon/magic users. Literally, back when Banthis was in charge he said the only reason clerics had cheap armor etc was because of that perceived archetype and not for any balance reasons.

Then, you can go back to before Paladins were introducted and the conversion to GS4 and it was said that with the advent of paladins clerics would have training costs adjusted. Such a thing never happened.

The fact is clerics get a double dip armor bonus. They have both lower hinderance, and lower armor training costs, meaning they buy less overall ranks at a lower price to wear thicker armor than empaths, sorcerers, and especially wizards. All while hunting in guarded like any other pure.

Yes, hunting in guarded, it used to be that was the rallying cry for the nerfing of sorcerers, unlike everyone else we hunted in guarded. Now all pures can easily hunt in guarded, and bards & rangers can do so too with a little extra mana. Which is of course fine, but maybe then we could undo some of those nerfs sorcerers got?

For the rest, you know I'm sorry about the fact that I'm observant, I've played a long time, I'm well versed in mechanics, I've been active in the forums longer than most GMs have been on staff. If I notice that a formula is rounding an average down resulting in a penalty to certain professions, I'll post about it. Sorry if the mathematics give you a headache but that isn't my problem.

I also hate double dip penalties and bonuses, Gemstone uses an extremely inefficient hybrid skill/profession setup that results in a lot of these things where a profession gets an arbitrary bonus for being a profession, then another built in bonus in the forum of skills costs. My hatred for this problem extends far beyond just boosting sorcerers.

For instance there is a current discussion about lore helping spells from magical items. Gibreficul wants to learn demon lore to be able to phase, Hakwea is exhibiting professional protectionism and is arguing vehemently against it. I've chimed in backing up Gibreficul, because that is the road to a skill based system which I like (I like said systems btw because they promote a diverse playerbase).

I also have no problems admitting when I'm wrong. I was one of the most vocal dissenters for the whole runestaff system, I thought it was dumb, it wasn't going to work out, and it would ruin things for pures. I was wrong, I said I was wrong, I use a runestaff, and I'm one of their more vocal advocates now.

To the person who said I was jealous of Naseer,

That is just dumb, Naseer has probably ten million more experience than I do, and I like him, we don't chat much but we're friendly towards each other certainly, we've both hunted OTF a long time and so we've had many occassions to help each other.

Plus, if I was really the ego driven type who wants big numbers, why would I be a dwarf sorcerer, dwarves having one of the shittiest CS's in game. Why too would I have capped only being like 2.15x trained in spells, whereas many people push being 3x trained? I like playing different/unique/diverse characters, mutants in some ways (though not as mutant as others).

To the person who said I was Lohlem,

Also, very dumb. Querthose=Lohlem, another OCD fanboy who gets overexited about things. Honestly, I wouldn't be suprised if either Querthose or Lohlem introduced themselves as sorcerers in real life. If you were active then you may remember in the sorcerer forums I was probably one of the most vocal people about keeping Lohlem under control when he went off on weird tangents about demons and whatnot.


To all,

Honestly, how sad is it that you hate me so to have a thread about me? You need to not obsess so much about other people in a virtual world. I'm just a guy, and I have pretty thick skin. Move on, get over me.

I think most of this comes from bashing the messenger. I post something, and instead of addressing my points in any coherent fashion people start bitching about "Virilneus is whining again" "Sorcerers are such whiners" "boo hoo."

You could probably safely call me an activist player. I've played this game almost 13 years now straight, no paying for 2 years, leaving for 5, coming back and saying I've played for 7 years. I've been active in the forums since they launched in 97. I've posted hundreds of ideas, gotten quite a few actually implemented, influenced game design in many other ways. I'm invested in Gemstone. I care about Gemstone. I want the game to be better, if I have a idea on a way to make it better, I will post that idea. You won't always like what I post, I don't care.

I won't deny that I can be a prick to people, I don't have a lot of patience, I am not politically correct, and I am not diplomatic. If someone posts something wrong I'm not going to be Paula Abdul, I'm going to be Simon, that is just who I am. You can hate Simon, you can think Simon is mean, but Simon is usually right. So you can thank Simon for not wasting your time and giving you false hope by sugarcoating things and being all politically correct with your feelings. Or you can bitch at him and say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he is just jealous of your awesome singing abilities.

I also don't put up with shit from other people. If someone bashes or insults me, I let them have it right back. But there is a difference. I don't go around making threads about players I dislike so that I can see if my penis grows by a couple inches through the act of posting in them. Threads I start may often end up to be pissing matches, I won't deny that, but they never start that way, they always start with a well researched post that presents facts in a logical way and includes any necessary math or examples to back them up.

If anyone has a problem with me you can email me. If you want to debate any of my proposals in a logical fashion I welcome it. But making up a thread just to bash me, that's just kinda sad. Why do you let what I post affect you so?

[Fallen]

Clerics kinda suck, though, Viril. Low training costs or no. They are to me one of the most boring, lackluster professions in the game.

[LMingrone]

This should be good.

[crb]

Why do they suck? Other than some of the laziest players play them?

[radamanthys]

http://itson.ytmnd.com/

[thefarmer]

I really hate bitches who complain about me behind me back without posting any sort of identification, atleast let me know your character name or officials name so I can be sure to treat you with the same amount of respect as you treat me.
You want to treat characters in game based on how their player treats you on a message board?



If anyone has a problem with me you can email me. If you want to debate any of my proposals in a logical fashion I welcome it. But making up a thread just to bash me, that's just kinda sad. Why do you let what I post affect you so?
Why do YOU let what people post affect you so?

[Fallen]

They really have nothing impressive to offer. You've made your feelings clear on "Fluff" messaging, but they certainly lack anything resembling that. Why do you think they are getting such a huge push from the current GMs? They aren't necessarily going about it the right way, but they are trying to make them more "unique" by ripping away everyone else's ability to raise the dead. The 220 messaging also helps a lot, but honestly, who sees that aside from the cleric outside of the initial release buzz? They also aren't getting 200's circle as their own, which IMO WAS a loss to their profession, taking away from their appeal.

Outside of a decent attack spell or two, they are pretty plain. Fervent Reproach is sick, yes. But for full power you need to wait 6 damned seconds, along with chanelling it for another 3 hard RT unless I am mistaken. That is 9 seconds for a good spell. Not all that impressive.

They have suffered (Although not in every way, as their training costs reflect) from the split of the Paladin's taking away their ability to be a more physical class, and are obviously not as good in Melee as an Empath, and debatably a wizard, losing a bit of ground in that department as well.

They 325 is decent. I like 330, but I would hazard to guess most clerics see it as a wasted slot. 320, 335, and 340 (not to mention 350) are all not filled. They have several spell slots most clerics rarely if ever use, like Holy bolt or Blinding.

They've been given help lately, but they need a lot more. Wizards too, but they have theirs coming in the form of Naos. He has huge things planned for them. CAN they hunt? Sure. That doesn't make them a good profession. Any class can hunt in GS4. Hell, even empaths can hunt, and better than most these days too.

[thefarmer]

Using the arguement that clerics are too powerful, for your reasoning behind sorcerers needing more work doesn't really prove much of a point.

Clerics were good before paladins. Now, why would anyone play them except to raise the dead?

[radamanthys]

Basically, as I see it... it's better the Sorcery forums be alive and slightly irritating to some people than completely dead.

I suppose that, just like any environment comprised of passionate proponents of their respective ideas, there's bound to be more than an inkling of dissention in the Sorcery forums.

[crb]

You want to treat characters in game based on how their player treats you on a message board?



Why do YOU let what people post affect you so?


1. Absolutely. People cop out all the time and shit on me and then want to be buddy buddy in game, no, not going to happen.

2. Responding to people obessively bashing you != starting threads bashing people behind their back.

[crb]

Using the arguement that clerics are too powerful, for your reasoning behind sorcerers needing more work doesn't really prove much of a point.

Clerics were good before paladins. Now, why would anyone play them except to raise the dead?

Sorcerers don't need more work because clerics are too powerful. When have I ever said that? Clerics have skill training costs out of wack with the rest of the game, that is a game balance issue that has nothing to do with any other profession except clerics (though the paladin conversion does factor in since GMs said they would fix the issue then).

In fact, sorcerers don't need more work right now period, except that there are some bugs and other issues that need work. As far as new spell development goes, we honestly do not need it right now.

The bug issue though is grinding, Nilven has been MIA for a long time and we don't get many updates, it is annoying.

And of course, just because we don't have a pressing NEED for advancements, does not mean we shouldn't come up with ideas for improvements. Ideas can be stored until when they're needed. Learn the difference.

[Stunseed]

If you can't separate OOG from IG, maybe it's time for a little Alt-F4'ing for a little bit. Siriusly.

[Numbers]

TLDR

[crb]

They really have nothing impressive to offer. You've made your feelings clear on "Fluff" messaging, but they certainly lack anything resembling that. Why do you think they are getting such a huge push from the current GMs? They aren't necessarily going about it the right way, but they are trying to make them more "unique" by ripping away everyone else's ability to raise the dead. The 220 messaging also helps a lot, but honestly, who sees that aside from the cleric outside of the initial release buzz? They also aren't getting 200's circle as their own, which IMO WAS a loss to their profession, taking away from their appeal.


Since when does a profession need 2 unique spell circles to be fun or good? Plus, one does have to consider value from the 200 circle still. Take 217. No component cost, nice duration, self lk, prevention of item loss from disarm. It is one of the best and cheapest pet spells in game. I know I wish I knew it. 240 too, 240 is ridiculous. Ya, the mana cost if high, but if you have a swarm the mana cost is well worth it. 240+swarm=frying with less mana overall than hunting normally, and exponentially quicker.




Outside of a decent attack spell or two, they are pretty plain. Fervent Reproach is sick, yes. But for full power you need to wait 6 damned seconds, along with chanelling it for another 3 hard RT unless I am mistaken. That is 9 seconds for a good spell. Not all that impressive.


Still a neat trick



They have suffered (Although not in every way, as their training costs reflect) from the split of the Paladin's taking away their ability to be a more physical class, and are obviously not as good in Melee as an Empath, and debatably a wizard, losing a bit of ground in that department as well.


Having the best physical defenses of any pure, to the point of being significantly better than sorcerers and wizards, doesn't count for anything? When I watch a cleric hunt in OTF I am amazed always at how quickly they can kill things, they are speed freaks when it comes to hunting, and have been for a long time going to back to repel. Quite a few clerics hunted through the entire rift in about 2-3 months, months, thats averaging a level every 2 or 3 days.



They 325 is decent. I like 330, but I would hazard to guess most clerics see it as a wasted slot. 320, 335, and 340 (not to mention 350) are all not filled. They have several spell slots most clerics rarely if ever use, like Holy bolt or Blinding.


I would use holy bolt if I knew it. A lot of sorcerers see a lot of our spells as wasted slots too, and wizards with their spells, and empaths with their spells, this is not a unique problem.



They've been given help lately, but they need a lot more. Wizards too, but they have theirs coming in the form of Naos. He has huge things planned for them. CAN they hunt? Sure. That doesn't make them a good profession. Any class can hunt in GS4. Hell, even empaths can hunt, and better than most these days too.

Bottom line, clerics are pretty damn good hunters, they have kickass defenses, can kill like crazy, have relatively low component costs for their existing high level spells compared to sorcerers (all professions do compared to sorcerers). But, the balance issue is raise dead. The ability to gain large chunks of XP and fame (look at the fame lists) without hunting is offsetting to any lack of hunting options.

If all professions had an equivalent ability then yes, I would say clerics are lacking, but all professions do not have such abilities.

Not to say I don't begrudge them spell improvements, if they want to focus on improving their spells, fine with me (so long as they're fine with me working to improve sorcerers). However, it is abhorrent to game balance that clerics be allowed to hunt like pures when they wear armor like semis, that issue will never change regardless of what spells they know. Also, they do not need to push themselves up by doing things like taking 318 off scrolls.

[crb]

If you can't separate OOG from IG, maybe it's time for a little Alt-F4'ing for a little bit. Siriusly.
So I should be nice to people who aren't nice to me because my character doesn't know the player and if I don't I must be playing to much?

I kinda think the person who constantly thinks that their character is a separate entity is the one who probably players too much. This is a game, characters are not real people, I treat characters like their players most of the time. If I'm mean to Querthose it isn't because I think Jesse is a sorcerer IRL, it is because I think Jesse is a douche IRL and by fucking with Querthose I can fuck with him.

[Some Rogue]

:violin:

[Fallen]

I would use holy bolt if I knew it. A lot of sorcerers see a lot of our spells as wasted slots too, and wizards with their spells, and empaths with their spells, this is not a unique problem.

We have a hell of a lot more reasons to train in Spell Aim then they do. They have 306, 111/118. We have 708, 710, 720, 111, and 118. 720 being one of our core damage spells, and 708 one of our core disablers.

[Davenshire]

You are such a...such a... a viril n' puss.

You seem to keep yer site updated pretty regularly, if you don't agree with something you have on their becuase it is outdated why don't you take it down? (cause you like beating a dead horse maybe, and are still throwing tantrums on the gemstone forums about the same old stuff you leave posted???)

I think the main complaint is you don't shut the hell up. you puss and puss and puss... ... ...

This is a game, if you aren't enjoying yourself try something else. No one wants to sort through 5 billion gemstone posts of you cry assing constantly. You get some perks and without taking a breath to think "wow this is great", you bitch about what they DON'T do, and continually puss about what others have that you don't.

certain terms come to mind, like...sad sack, chickenshit, amongst others.

if you aren't enjoying yourself try something else.

I like the best about the in game shit. We should all posts are characters names so some ignorant 100 train sorcerer can be a prick to us ingame? Why not just play it safe and treat everyone in lands with disdain, cause from what I been reading, most agree you are a whining, complaining, bitch.


Wizards have 518 I am jealous waaaaaa.
Clerics training costs are obnoxious in my eyes cause I don't fully understand them, waaaaaa...
Sorcerers and other casters can't forage well, waaaa....
Mana disrupt and Dark Catalyst..... waa...

I could add A LOT more to this list, but I'll try to avoid spending all my time complaining :)

if you aren't enjoying yourself try something else.

I really don't think you'd be happy unless all classes were absolutely boring equal, with sorcerers 10 steps above everyone else.

NO, you'd still cry ass.


There is an easy fix for this, just shut the hell up. Or you know ...tone it down a lot.

Sorry I don't have the "balls" to post my characters name. okokok, my chars are titmouse & rumproast. maybe not but I am sure if you did some searching you could proabbly figure it out though : )

[crb]

:violin:

[Daniel]

I'm 6'5, 195, successful small business owner. I have brown hair, a goatee, brown eyes. I dress casually most of the time, jeans and a t shirt, or a sweater in the winter. I don't play Gemstone all that much compared to most of you, I usually only hunt my weekly gift. I have a 32 inch waist and a 34 inch inseam, that fulfill your masturbation fantasy enough?

I really hate bitches who complain about me behind me back without posting any sort of identification, atleast let me know your character name or officials name so I can be sure to treat you with the same amount of respect as you treat me.


You honestly don't know who Methais is?

[Mistomeer]

Since when does a profession need 2 unique spell circles to be fun or good? Plus, one does have to consider value from the 200 circle still. Take 217. No component cost, nice duration, self lk, prevention of item loss from disarm. It is one of the best and cheapest pet spells in game.

And alot of clerics would rather have the demon abilities. Grass is greener.


I know I wish I knew it. 240 too, 240 is ridiculous. Ya, the mana cost if high, but if you have a swarm the mana cost is well worth it. 240+swarm=frying with less mana overall than hunting normally, and exponentially quicker.

240 is kickass, but you can wipe out a swarm alot faster and for less mana with 720.





Still a neat trick

Neat tricks aren't the same as good hunting spells. Find a cleric that uses 312 regularly when hunting.



Having the best physical defenses of any pure, to the point of being significantly better than sorcerers and wizards, doesn't count for anything? When I watch a cleric hunt in OTF I am amazed always at how quickly they can kill things, they are speed freaks when it comes to hunting, and have been for a long time going to back to repel.

When you're using a 17 mana attack spell, then you should kill things quickly.


Quite a few clerics hunted through the entire rift in about 2-3 months, months, thats averaging a level every 2 or 3 days.

Pre-GSIV would be my guess. Otherwise, I seriously doubt many people are doing a level every 2-3 days from level 66 to 95 or so.



I would use holy bolt if I knew it.

You can't have it both ways. It's difficult to build a cleric with the kick ass physical defense you claim and train for spell aim. 306 is only really worth the training cost if you go rune staff.




Bottom line, clerics are pretty damn good hunters, they have kickass defenses, can kill like crazy, have relatively low component costs for their existing high level spells compared to sorcerers (all professions do compared to sorcerers). But, the balance issue is raise dead. The ability to gain large chunks of XP and fame (look at the fame lists) without hunting is offsetting to any lack of hunting options.

Raise dead isn't anything compared to what it used to be. There's a time limit on 308 and EXP from raising is level based. So the older a cleric gets, the harder it is to make EXP off raising. Picking or healing is much more viable for non-hunting EXP gain. I suspect your main complaint is about the fame from raising, but I think most players would rather get EXP over fame.


If all professions had an equivalent ability then yes, I would say clerics are lacking, but all professions do not have such abilities.

There aren't any sorcs that pick?


However, it is abhorrent to game balance that clerics be allowed to hunt like pures when they wear armor like semis, that issue will never change regardless of what spells they know. Also, they do not need to push themselves up by doing things like taking 318 off scrolls.
Why are you so obsessed with clerics? Clerics have 2 legitimate hunting spells - 302 and 317. I wouldn't say that makes them the best hunters in the game.

[thefarmer]

And of course, just because we don't have a pressing NEED for advancements, does not mean we shouldn't come up with ideas for improvements. Ideas can be stored until when they're needed. Learn the difference.

Good to know.

I'm all for you STORING up a bunch of your sorc ideas for later use and I'm sure everyone else is too. In fact, build a sorkipedia about all the improvements you want to STORE away.

Just don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass when you post about wanting them IMPLEMENTED.

[crb]

240 is kickass, but you can wipe out a swarm alot faster and for less mana with 720.


Not really. 720 is not playersafe, is highly level based, requires a ton of crap on the ground if you want it to be effective, and many creatures are outright immune to it.

240 will boost any attack spell, I don't see them being really equivalent.



You can't have it both ways. It's difficult to build a cleric with the kick ass physical defense you claim and train for spell aim. 306 is only really worth the training cost if you go rune staff.

Why? I don't get how its harder for clerics, who have to spend less physical TPs on physical skills to get spell aiming than sorcerers or wizards who have to pay more TPs for physical skills.



Raise dead isn't anything compared to what it used to be. There's a time limit on 308 and EXP from raising is level based. So the older a cleric gets, the harder it is to make EXP off raising. Picking or healing is much more viable for non-hunting EXP gain. I suspect your main complaint is about the fame from raising, but I think most players would rather get EXP over fame

Better than nothing though, isn't it?



There aren't any sorcs that pick?

I won't bother responding to that, because I think you were being sarcastic. If you really think that a non-rogue, especially a pure, learning to pick for alternative experience is an equal ability to empaths healing or clerics raising, if you really think that. Let me know, and I'll do my best to refute you.



Why are you so obsessed with clerics? Clerics have 2 legitimate hunting spells - 302 and 317. I wouldn't say that makes them the best hunters in the game.

Quality>Quantity.

Empaths don't have a lot of hunting spells, and they're kickass hunters.

I'd rather have a few really good mana efficient spells than a bunch of inefficient niche spells that are mostly just novelty.

But again, so long as raise dead provides the experience that it does, clerics shouldn't be as good of hunters as other professions with no native way to earn large amounts of non-hunting experience. Something has to balance against raise dead.

But I don't really care that much about the power of a cleric's hunting spells, my gripe is purely about training costs, because that affects me. If a critter is balanced to hit a cleric in thicker armor that they paid less for, then it'll shred me in the thinner armor I paid more for.

I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea.

I've also tried proposing an idea to boost up wizards & sorcerers to acheive equality before (as opposed to bring clerics down). Make 450 "elemental armor" that gives phantom armor protection with a duration akin to 430. I think a bunch of clerics and empaths pushed that idea down, but it was quite a few years ago, think I should mention it again?

[crb]

Good to know.

I'm all for you STORING up a bunch of your sorc ideas for later use and I'm sure everyone else is too. In fact, build a sorkipedia about all the improvements you want to STORE away.

Just don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass when you post about wanting them IMPLEMENTED.
:violin:

[radamanthys]

When playing my sorcerer, I never really had a problem with DS. It was mostly maneuvers, FoF/Swarms, and abilities that got me (boils, clouds, call wind, etc.). I'd much prefer some sort of defense against those (I believe phase was supposed to do that?).

Wasn't 450 supposed to be Major Demons, anyway?

[thefarmer]

:violin:

You complain about people insulting your posts.. yet your only reply is an emoticon?

And you wonder why people start threads like this.

Actually, WTF is that supposed to mean anyway?

[radamanthys]

This will change anyone's mind about clerics and their uber zombie fighting powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkHkdu5IEI

[thefarmer]

I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea.

My paladin can hunt in guarded. I know a ranger that can too. Do you want to even out all armor costs if that profession has access to a CS based spell?

[Stanley Burrell]

Redux would kick some ass if it was applicable to non-AS vs. DS rolls, or at least your basic from-the-environment damage that would hit a thick skin first before doing raw damage. It could even use the neutered equation.

I dunno what all this maneuver beef is about. I'm pretty sure, even with all the maneuver complaints, that my jaw is quasi-gawking, still, from the 712 insta' boost due to the same tune sung by sorcerers throughout GS history. Luckily, all warriors wear hauberk and up, so we don't have to worry about CMAN GARROTE end game, roll my eyes.

In general, I also think that empaths have been more sponsored due to the the female playerbase combined with the propensity of the two X chromosome to complain. Non-sexistly.

In summation:


Quality>Quantity.

Whereas applicable as needed. Quantifiably. As a unified science. Related to anything and everything GemStone.

[Numbers]

All I want from this thread is a video of Viril's player singing that song about the Rift that he wrote.

That would make this the best thread ever.

[Stunseed]

Cmon 2x.

[crb]

You complain about people insulting your posts.. yet your only reply is an emoticon?

And you wonder why people start threads like this.

Actually, WTF is that supposed to mean anyway?
People seem to enjoy flippant posts here.

The point being, you complain about me complaining. That is about one of the most hypocritical things you can do. You bitch that I post too many ideas, and meanwhile you're posting about me. When I post an idea or a complaint or a suggestion atleast it is relevant to Gemstone, posting a complaint about the posting habits of another player is as irrelevant as things get.

In summation, here is what I do:

"GM, fix X problem in game, it is broken for Y reasons, I don't like it.

Here is what you do:

"Virilneus, stop posting so many things I may or may not agree with that I optionally might read depending on if I ignore you or not or just skip over your posts or not. "

It really is quite silly. If you have a problem with what I post, either address the issue I posted about, or ignore me. Bitching that you want me to not post on certain topics is sad.

[Davenshire]

I don't think it is so much of a "hate you thread." viril, as it is a "hate yer pussing."

It's pretty easy to sum up. You constantly act like your the champion of game balance. Yet in the same breath you complain about sorcerers, and ask for things that would throw them even more out of balance.

Then you exacerbate this by complaning what other professions have, that sorcerers don't. You say they aren't balanced, but only from your extremely skewed (sorcerery over all.) view point.

Maybe....."maybe" if you had a mid level character from every class..... you know, and didn't constantly puss about down tweaking other professions, while asking for up tweaks to your P&J.... MAYBE you might actually have a clue what balance is.

People may get distracted by irritation at the obnoxious amount of drivel you post on the regular forums, but the fact remains.

You are extremely one sided, and have a tendancy to make it a "sorcerers surrounded by the angry masses trying to pull them down." mentality. and it isn't.

Just you and 90% of what you post.

[Soulpieced]

"I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea."

More garbage. Though I guess it's not fair that my CS is as high, if not higher than your average level 100 sorcerer, I wear chain class armor, and probably have the highest self-cast DS due to sonic shield mechanics yet still get to hunt in guarded. Life isn't fair.

[Stanley Burrell]

"I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea."

More garbage. Though I guess it's not fair that my CS is as high, if not higher than your average level 100 sorcerer, I wear chain class armor, and probably have the highest self-cast DS due to sonic shield mechanics yet still get to hunt in guarded. Life isn't fair.

Obviously, your loresinging needs to be nerfed.

You could have just dished out the "Peons" jab :-P

[crb]

"I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea."

More garbage. Though I guess it's not fair that my CS is as high, if not higher than your average level 100 sorcerer, I wear chain class armor, and probably have the highest self-cast DS due to sonic shield mechanics yet still get to hunt in guarded. Life isn't fair.
We all know how big your penis is Soulpieced. You don't need to keep reminding us how uber you are. You're like the best bard evar!!@!!!@!@!111 Hooray you! Way to go!

[Soulpieced]

People need reminders every once in a while.

[crb]

It's pretty easy to sum up. You constantly act like your the champion of game balance. Yet in the same breath you complain about sorcerers, and ask for things that would throw them even more out of balance.


I know it may seem that way to outsiders, but I regularly shoot down sorcerer uptweaks in our own folders. Why do you think Querthose hates me so?

I've also regularly posted improvement ideas for other professions. For instance, while asking for 518 to have an MoC requirement, I added that it'd be nice if it'd be cone of attuned element instead of cone of lightning. that is just one example, and usually they don't have negative downtweaks attached either, 518 was an exception in that regard.

Sure, most of the ideas I think up are for sorcerers, but I'm sure thats true for everyone with a prime profession, no?

I also recently posted a proposal on a way to do breakage which hardly affects sorcerers, and me especially.



Maybe....."maybe" if you had a mid level character from every class..... you know, and didn't constantly puss about down tweaking other professions, while asking for up tweaks to your P&J.... MAYBE you might actually have a clue what balance is.

1. I love it how people say I don't know what balance is but when I lay out an argument they lack any counter argument other than attacking the messenger.

2. I have 2 titled wizards, used to have a third. 2 titled empaths, used to have a third. 1 titled rogue, 1 titled warrior, 1 titled bard, and my first character was a bard who got to 15 back when 15 was old. 1 titled ranger, almost a 2nd titled warrior. Almost a second titled rogue.

[Stunseed]

< I'm 6'5, 195, successful small business owner. I have brown hair, a goatee, brown eyes. I dress casually most of the time, jeans and a t shirt, or a sweater in the winter. I don't play Gemstone all that much compared to most of you, I usually only hunt my weekly gift. I have a 32 inch waist and a 34 inch inseam, that fulfill your masturbation fantasy enough? >

And you have how many titled characters? Awkward...

[crb]

huh?

[Stunseed]

Just pointing out how normal you try to make yourself out to, and how you don't play GS but for your XXX...Yet the overall abundance of your character sheet to inflate your e-penis makes it seem as if one of these is not true.

[thefarmer]

People seem to enjoy flippant posts here.

The point being, you complain about me complaining. That is about one of the most hypocritical things you can do. You bitch that I post too many ideas, and meanwhile you're posting about me. When I post an idea or a complaint or a suggestion atleast it is relevant to Gemstone, posting a complaint about the posting habits of another player is as irrelevant as things get.

In summation, here is what I do:

"GM, fix X problem in game, it is broken for Y reasons, I don't like it.

Here is what you do:

"Virilneus, stop posting so many things I may or may not agree with that I optionally might read depending on if I ignore you or not or just skip over your posts or not. "

It really is quite silly. If you have a problem with what I post, either address the issue I posted about, or ignore me. Bitching that you want me to not post on certain topics is sad.

Clearly you have identity seperation issues.

I don't and haven't done any of those things.

[Sthrockmorton]

2. I have 2 titled wizards, used to have a third. 2 titled empaths, used to have a third. 1 titled rogue, 1 titled warrior, 1 titled bard, and my first character was a bard who got to 15 back when 15 was old. 1 titled ranger, almost a 2nd titled warrior. Almost a second titled rogue.
when was 15 EVER old?

I think my first char reached 15 in like 2 weeks, back in '95 or '96

[crb]

Just pointing out how normal you try to make yourself out to, and how you don't play GS but for your XXX...Yet the overall abundance of your character sheet to inflate your e-penis makes it seem as if one of these is not true.
13 years my friend. It isn't a whole lot for 13 years.

Anyone who knows me know I don't advance that fast. I've been capped since gs4 started( since 1999 I've hunted in 2 areas, the rift and OTF), and lots of people who didn't even get rolled until after that are past me in total experience.



when was 15 EVER old?

I think my first char reached 15 in like 2 weeks, back in '95 or '96
When you had to play $7 an hour to play. At 15, my little bard could kill almost anyone he wanted with 409.

[crb]

Clearly you have identity seperation issues.

I don't and haven't done any of those things.


Good to know.

I'm all for you STORING up a bunch of your sorc ideas for later use and I'm sure everyone else is too. In fact, build a sorkipedia about all the improvements you want to STORE away.

Just don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass when you post about wanting them IMPLEMENTED.

Seems to me you have a problem with things I post, but I guess I'm crazy?

[Stunseed]

< 13 years my friend. It isn't a whole lot for 13 years. >

I'd love for someone like Latrinsorm to come in and show you how comical this statement will be.

I play alot more often than just my XXX in regards to hunting and it's been almost six with this version of Stunseed, and he's only 85.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Seems to me you have a problem with things I post, but I guess I'm crazy?

I don't read that as him saying stop posting, but rather stop being a whiny little bitch when people disagree with you.

[thefarmer]

Seems to me you have a problem with things I post, but I guess I'm crazy?

Clearly you're confused.


Just don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass when you post about wanting them IMPLEMENTED.

This doesn't mean I have a problem with things you post. This means don't expect anyone else to give a fuck what you post.

As far as crazy, I couldn't tell you.

What it also means is if you're serious about STORING ideas, just make up a website. That why you don't have to listen to people 'complaining' about your posts.

[Mistomeer]

Not really. 720 is not playersafe, is highly level based, requires a ton of crap on the ground if you want it to be effective, and many creatures are outright immune to it.

240 will boost any attack spell, I don't see them being really equivalent.

240 is level based as well (CS v TD) and lasts about 90 seconds for 40 mana. I'd gladly trade 240 for 720.



Why? I don't get how its harder for clerics, who have to spend less physical TPs on physical skills to get spell aiming than sorcerers or wizards who have to pay more TPs for physical skills.

Because the vast majority of sorcs and wizards use a rune staff so they're training in it anyway. Alot of clerics are sword/shield so it's an added training cost for 306.



Better than nothing though, isn't it?

Just barely these days.



I won't bother responding to that, because I think you were being sarcastic. If you really think that a non-rogue, especially a pure, learning to pick for alternative experience is an equal ability to empaths healing or clerics raising, if you really think that. Let me know, and I'll do my best to refute you.

I never said it was equal. I said it was an option that sorcs have taken advantage of for quite some time.



Quality>Quantity.

Grass is greener.


Empaths don't have a lot of hunting spells, and they're kickass hunters.

Because bone shatter is one of the most efficient hunting spells in the game. Clerics don't have a spell that good.


I'd rather have a few really good mana efficient spells than a bunch of inefficient niche spells that are mostly just novelty.

317 is about as mana efficient as 719.


But again, so long as raise dead provides the experience that it does, clerics shouldn't be as good of hunters as other professions with no native way to earn large amounts of non-hunting experience. Something has to balance against raise dead.

Raise dead sucks for exp. You have no idea what you're talking about there. The days of sitting at the gate and raising all day are long gone. Raising will never be as good for earning EXP as hunting is.


But I don't really care that much about the power of a cleric's hunting spells, my gripe is purely about training costs, because that affects me. If a critter is balanced to hit a cleric in thicker armor that they paid less for, then it'll shred me in the thinner armor I paid more for.

And sorcs have the best TD in game. In heavier armor, self-spelled, I still get warded regularly by like-level creatures. If a critter is balanced to ward a sorc with a higher TD then it will shred me with a lower TD. Same thing.


I believe all professions that can hunt majorly in guarded should have roughly the same armor restrictions, call me crazy, I know, it's a batshit crazy idea.

It is batshit crazy. Clerics have lower TD's than sorcs and better physical defense. Where's the big injustice there?


I've also tried proposing an idea to boost up wizards & sorcerers to acheive equality before (as opposed to bring clerics down). Make 450 "elemental armor" that gives phantom armor protection with a duration akin to 430. I think a bunch of clerics and empaths pushed that idea down, but it was quite a few years ago, think I should mention it again?
Your whole argument is just silly. You take a few things clerics have that are good, but don't mention a single advantages sorcs have.

Sorcs have higher TD's.
Sorcs have higher CS's.
Sorcs have access to the 400 circle which is much, much better circle for pures hunting than the 200 circle. The 200 circle is still largely based on the cleric hybrid design.
Sorcs have had the same direction throughout the history of the game - pures. Clerics had the rug pulled out from under them. Look at the first page of fame for both professions. Alot of giant clerics (swinging in the undead gap) and a alot of dark elf sorcs (CS boost). So when creature maneuvers came about, sorcs were better off in addition to the CS boost for being a dark elf. With the CS boost, sorcs got to make an informed race decision there.
Sorcs have maneuver based attacks (720, 435, 710) that they can use when their CS doesn't cut it and for crowd control.
Sorcs have better means for picking (400 circle) for non-hunting exp.


At any rate, both classes have advantages. I wouldn't say either one has a clear hunting advantage. The differences are hardly worth of the amount of complaining you're doing. The sorc class isn't broken and it has its advantages and disadvantages just like any other profession.

[crb]

< 13 years my friend. It isn't a whole lot for 13 years. >

I'd love for someone like Latrinsorm to come in and show you how comical this statement will be.

I play alot more often than just my XXX in regards to hunting and it's been almost six with this version of Stunseed, and he's only 85.
So, you've played for half as long and are almost capped. What does that prove or disprove?

Do I need to post a screenshot of my experience levels for you to believe that I don't hunt much more than 6 hours a week? Why would I lie about that? There was a time in the late 90's when I hunted more sure, but since 2000 or so, not really.

[crb]

240 is level based as well (CS v TD) and lasts about 90 seconds for 40 mana. I'd gladly trade 240 for 720.


Deal, who do we talk to?



Because the vast majority of sorcs and wizards use a rune staff so they're training in it anyway. Alot of clerics are sword/shield so it's an added training cost for 306.


This is a penalty for clerics how? sword/board results in more DS, or didn't you know that?


Because bone shatter is one of the most efficient hunting spells in the game. Clerics don't have a spell that good.


I would agree, why don't you ask for a new one?



317 is about as mana efficient as 719.
[quote]

So what? Grass is the same shade? err?

[quote]
Raise dead sucks for exp. You have no idea what you're talking about there. The days of sitting at the gate and raising all day are long gone. Raising will never be as good for earning EXP as hunting is.


Lucky for you you do not have to choose between raising and hunting. You can do both.



And sorcs have the best TD in game. In heavier armor, self-spelled, I still get warded regularly by like-level creatures. If a critter is balanced to ward a sorc with a higher TD then it will shred me with a lower TD. Same thing.


I do too, even with extra spells I put up seers can hit me with warding spells. AS a cleric you'll have a higher spiritual TD than a sorcerer. The sorcerer will admittedly be better in elemental TD, but I think TDs overall balance out nicely.



Your whole argument is just silly. You take a few things clerics have that are good, but don't mention a single advantages sorcs have.

1 Sorcs have higher TD's.
2Sorcs have higher CS's.
3 Sorcs have access to the 400 circle which is much, much better circle for pures hunting than the 200 circle. The 200 circle is still largely based on the cleric hybrid design.
4 Sorcs have had the same direction throughout the history of the game - pures. Clerics had the rug pulled out from under them. Look at the first page of fame for both professions. Alot of giant clerics (swinging in the undead gap) and a alot of dark elf sorcs (CS boost). So when creature maneuvers came about, sorcs were better off in addition to the CS boost for being a dark elf. With the CS boost, sorcs got to make an informed race decision there.
5 Sorcs have maneuver based attacks (720, 435, 710) that they can use when their CS doesn't cut it and for crowd control.
6 Sorcs have better means for picking (400 circle) for non-hunting exp.


1. Only some of the time, see above.
2. CS when comparing different circles is meaningless, all critters have custom TDs programmed from each spell circle, the warding margin is what matters, not the CS, although, considering clerics do NOT have a penalty to the 100 circle, in that regard they have a higher CS than sorcerers do.
3. I'd trade 400's for 200's any day of the week. 200s are awesome. 400s are the most widely available spells in the game.
4. This is just weird... sorcerers are better because so many are dark elves? Dark elves are better at manuevers? I'm a dwarf, you know that right? Plus things like strength, constitution, and total HP matter for manuevers.
5. This is true, clerics lack a good area of effect spell. This, I think, is a trade off for raise dead. In fact last time this topic came up I believe a GM specifically said clerics weren't supposed to have as wide a variety of hunting spells as wizards and sorcerers simply because of their raise dead ability. HOWEVER, I did a few months ago post an idea for a mass web in spell slot 135 and I SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the post that it would HELP clerics and empaths as it would provide them with a new attack type they did not currently possess. You may still be able to find the post on the website. So, imagine that, Virilneus posting an idea that he specifically mentions should fix an gap in the hunting abilities for clerics and empaths, crazy!
6. This is BS. Seriously, why do so many people like to attribute "ability to pick for experience" as a benefit for every non-rogue profession, except their own of course. I think if you asked most wizards they'd trade 404, 403, 407, and 408 for the 125/325 combo clerics can do. Considering how easy it is to find 400 spells on scrolls, in items, or from other players, I'd just reiterate my point that I'd much rather have native access to the 200 circle.



At any rate, both classes have advantages. I wouldn't say either one has a clear hunting advantage. The differences are hardly worth of the amount of complaining you're doing. The sorc class isn't broken and it has its advantages and disadvantages just like any other profession.

Who is complaining? I haven't started a new thread about cleric armor costs on the officials for a long time. Someone else brought up the topic here by linking to a page I wrote up in the 90s. Nor did I say the sorcerer profession was broken. There are some improvements that could be made, of course, but nothing urgent, there are some fluff-bugs that aren't affecting mechanics and so are not urgent, and there are some game design inconsistencies that should be addressed, but they are all relatively minor things (and thus should, should, be easily addressed with a fuss).

[LMingrone]

More elitist douche-baggery. He just doesn't get it.

[Latrinsorm]

Dark elves are better at manuevers?Yes.

[Sthrockmorton]

4. This is just weird... sorcerers are better because so many are dark elves? Dark elves are better at manuevers? I'm a dwarf, you know that right? Plus things like strength, constitution, and total HP matter for manuevers.

I think he's referring to the fact that when clerics were first created, they were a hybrid class. So MANY of the older clerics were rolled as Giants, to help their swing. Giving a lot of the older giantmen cleric a disadvantage now that clerics are traditionally meant to be pures.

The advantage he was referring to went to that sorcerers have and always will be pures. Therefore, those that originally rolled a sorcerer, rolled them as dark elves to give them a boost to their most important attribute ---> their CS.

[crb]

I think he's referring to the fact that when clerics were first created, they were a hybrid class. So MANY of the older clerics were rolled as Giants, to help their swing. Giving a lot of the older giantmen cleric a disadvantage now that clerics are traditionally meant to be pures.

The advantage he was referring to went to that sorcerers have and always will be pures. Therefore, those that originally rolled a sorcerer, rolled them as dark elves to give them a boost to their most important attribute ---> their CS.
It isn't like we didn't get reallocation. So, you're a giant, you'd rather be a dark elf with the lands worst spirit return and a horrible discipline (which screws them in alchemy)?

CS isn't everything, seriously, it isn't, just steal 1612 from a paladin, you CAN do that, get a nice 15 CS boost. And it is warding margin, not CS, that matters anyways.

People fixate on CS too much, races affect your profession more than in just their CS. I'm sure if you actually made a list of all the pros and cons to being a giant you'd end up with more pros than cons.

[crb]

And oh ya... it isn't a cleric vs. sorcerer comparison in regards to armor costs.

It is cleric vs empath, sorcerer, and wizard.

Cleric: 8/0
Empath: 15/0
sorcerer: 15/0
wizard: 14/0

Ranks in armor needed to wear double chain:

Cleric: 70
Wizard: 290 (impossible)
Sorcerer 250 (impossible)
Empath: 70

Training points needed to reach double chain (theoretically):
Cleric: 560
Empath: 1050
Wizard: 4350
Sorcerer: 3750

What other professions can get for that 560 TPs cleric spend to get double chain:
Empaths: Brig
Sorcerers: Couriboulli
Wizards: Couriboulli

How is any of that balanced?

Clerics of course also have lower training costs in MoC, CM, physical fitness, and weapon abilities. As well as first aid.

In non-sphere-specific magical skills they have a higher TP cost than sorcerers & empaths in only 1, spell aiming, and only by 1 point. Wizards win the low TP cost for magical skills contest with slight edges in MIU, AS, and SA.

I fail to see the balance.

I mean, I get that wizards can be the best in MIU and AS (despite sorcerers being scroll specialists) because it is BALANCED by their slightly higher armor hinderance.

But, then clerics should have higher TP costs in magical skills to balance out their cheap physical skills and lower hinderance... but they don't. If clerics had higher magical TP costs to justify their cheap armor and lower hinderance I'd call it fair, but they don't so I call it broken.

[Latrinsorm]

As you've noted, clerics do not have native access to the same spell circles as sorcerers (except for the Minor Spiritual circle). Perhaps an analysis of that disparity will provide you the answers you seek.

[radamanthys]

I haven't slept in 2 days, so I'm a bit out of it, so pardon me asking... why do the benefits/detractions of the clerical class to do with skills in Sorcery? Just because a cleric is good doesn't make a sorcerer bad. I mean, I may have missed something... I'm not exactly 'with it' right now. Is this an argument to say that clerics need a nerf, or that sorcerers and wizards need an improvement?

I know my view of Rada is that he would much rather not wear heavier armor. Plus, you know that as soon as sorcerers and wizards get the ability to wear heavier armor, the devs will just rebalance critters and such to account for the overall upped defenses. We will then have to train more in armor, thus losing tps for magical skills that make up most of our fortes (especially as a runestaff wielder)

[thefarmer]

A cleric might feasibly wear double chain, but outside of a pure swinger, I haven't personally seen a pure casting one wear that high.

Why would an empath/wiz/sorc want to wear heavy armor when they can't cast in it?

To me that's like complaining that rogues should be able to 3x armor for the same costs as warriors, since they're both non-casting professions, but warriors shouldn't get the cheap ambush that rogues get.. just because I said so.

[Gelston]

I've known of Empaths who wore chain and were pure casters. Nakiro comes to mind.

[7Seconds]

actually for all V's flaws I agree with him for the most part. though the bit about sorcery not being broken I disagree. The profession has deviated in a large way in the last few years as I see it from its original design. This I personally wish to see corrected, one way or another. The lack of any apparent interest in picking up the profession from where they stopped developing it some years ago, and started tossing fluff really irks me.

This is what I would hope to see;

First and foremost an examination of what the sorcery profession is. and officially announced. the following is all subjectively based on the belief that sorceress' are geared to be the pure chiefly focused on disruption and destruction, and masters there of.

Balanced CS for 400/100 circles

Spell inside the 700 circle checked for balance IE, as 500 spells are more potent then 400's, 700 circle spells IMO should be at least slightly more powerful then the other pure profession circle spells of the same level.

In addition to the above, I feel a few spells should actually be moved from their current slots and reworked for placement in curse, or removed from the list entirely.

Lores that actually do something.

A finalized plan for Major/Lesser demons, PC's will never have them, or PC's will have them, and this is the plan for them.

and just to reiterate, 700 spells check for balance, this time in comparison to spells currently in circulation for other profession circles.

side note, why do have this creeping feeling about this pending lore review, and keep thinking that anouther double negative will be rearing its head once they go live. as it pertains to sorcery and 100's.

[Methais]

To the idiot who posted links to things on my site, those are really old, which you would realize if you read them. The sorcery development one for instance outlines a world in which sorcerers are missing all spells above level 20, and 3 spells below level 20. You may not have been playing a long enough time to know when that was, but it was a long time ago. I made that site I think in 1997. Even a child should be able to tell that the title is "Virilneus' Gemstone III Site" not "Virilneus' Gemstone IV Site"

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[crb]

I haven't slept in 2 days, so I'm a bit out of it, so pardon me asking... why do the benefits/detractions of the clerical class to do with skills in Sorcery? Just because a cleric is good doesn't make a sorcerer bad. I mean, I may have missed something... I'm not exactly 'with it' right now. Is this an argument to say that clerics need a nerf, or that sorcerers and wizards need an improvement?

I know my view of Rada is that he would much rather not wear heavier armor. Plus, you know that as soon as sorcerers and wizards get the ability to wear heavier armor, the devs will just rebalance critters and such to account for the overall upped defenses. We will then have to train more in armor, thus losing tps for magical skills that make up most of our fortes (especially as a runestaff wielder)
If a critter is balanced to be able to harm a guarded stance cleric in chain, what'll it do to a guarded stance wizard in fulls?

That is why defense matters.

Honestly, rather than increase cleric armor training costs to be, you know, not half as much as every other pure, I'd rather cut all other pure's armor costs in half. Thereby helping 3 professions instead of nerfing one. Which way do you think has a better chance of being implemented?



Why would an empath/wiz/sorc want to wear heavy armor when they can't cast in it?

They wouldn't, they can't cast in it, which is the problem isn't it? Clerics can cast in it, others notsomuch.



To me that's like complaining that rogues should be able to 3x armor for the same costs as warriors, since they're both non-casting professions, but warriors shouldn't get the cheap ambush that rogues get.. just because I said so.

Ahh... so... there is a tradeoff you mean! Warriors have armor, rogues can ambush.

Okay... clerics have armor and low spell hinderance (and lower physical training costs in other skills)... empaths, sorcerers, and wizards have... lower training costs in magical skills, nope.... it doesn't work out like that, it should, but it doesn't.

[crb]

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Explain that? Sure.

In 1999 when I started hunting the rift I was listening to Duran Duran mp3s alot, I'm like 80's music. I started thinking a lot of the lyrics could easily be tweaked to talk about the rift, not unlike a Weird Al song, so I wrote a little mock-copy of it. Half the lyrics are from the song, but like madlibs I changed the propernouns.

[Methais]

Explain that? Sure.

In 1999 when I started hunting the rift I was listening to Duran Duran mp3s alot, I'm like 80's music. I started thinking a lot of the lyrics could easily be tweaked to talk about the rift, not unlike a Weird Al song, so I wrote a little mock-copy of it. Half the lyrics are from the song, but like madlibs I changed the propernouns.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/Worf_notagain.gif

[Necromancer]

V, baby, this hole you're in is getting deeper. You may actually be the single most obnoxious poster on both forums.

THAT'S impressive.

PS ADD, not OCD. Hence the problems with focus, doc.

[Fallen]

...huh.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/Worf_notagain.gif

.

[Methais]

.

.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

.

Sorry, it beared repeating.

[Anebriated]

I was really hoping Id get to hear him singing along with the new lyrics... Im disappointed.

[Gan]

I play a cleric. I have fun playing a cleric. Life is unfair. Learn to cope. And thanks for making this thread very entertaining.

:popcorn:

:lol:

[AestheticDeath]

Clerics are a bit overpowered defensively. You have to admit it really.

I mean going out hunting empty handed, pre-cap? Its difficult for others to do that even when they are far post cap. You get heavy armor, and high DS, high spiritual TD etc.. Easily hunting from guarded, even offensive sometimes.

I'm not saying it is bad really, but you have to realize defensively they are above and beyond some of the others, perhaps all of them, though I can't say for sure since there are several professions I have not played in a while.

And when you put them in chain armors, full shield/brawl and still able to get enough triples for a high enough CS/DS to plink in offensive? Jeeze.

It's not a rant, and I could care less if they get changed in any way. But you can't ignore the facts.

[crb]

Clerics are a bit overpowered defensively. You have to admit it really.

I mean going out hunting empty handed, pre-cap? Its difficult for others to do that even when they are far post cap. You get heavy armor, and high DS, high spiritual TD etc.. Easily hunting from guarded, even offensive sometimes.

I'm not saying it is bad really, but you have to realize defensively they are above and beyond some of the others, perhaps all of them, though I can't say for sure since there are several professions I have not played in a while.

And when you put them in chain armors, full shield/brawl and still able to get enough triples for a high enough CS/DS to plink in offensive? Jeeze.

It's not a rant, and I could care less if they get changed in any way. But you can't ignore the facts.
Oh look, someone looks at the situation objectively and ends up agreeing with my points, imagine that.

10 bonus points to AestheticDeath.

[crb]

V, baby, this hole you're in is getting deeper. You may actually be the single most obnoxious poster on both forums.

THAT'S impressive.

PS ADD, not OCD. Hence the problems with focus, doc.
I'd rather be called obnoxious by a loser fanboy douche than, you know, be you. Obsessing over what other people say in forum to the point where you have to make a thread bashing them.

"Waa, waa, I hate Virilneus, why does he have to post! Waa, waa, I can't deal with my shitty life when I have to read his posts. He posts useful things often though so I don't want to ignore him, the choice is too hard, waa waa. Maybe I'll make a thread saying how much I hate him and how much better than him I am to make me feel better, wimper wimper."

If you don't like what I post on the officials, ignore me, don't cry like a little girl that I'm shitting all over your breakfast.

Ya, I might complain about game mechanics, but I don't make little bitch threads crying about other posters.

[Allereli]

Allereli, I don't know what your deal is, but thanks for atleast posting with your name. You've only been posting in the sorcerer forum a short time, I've only ran into you once in game, I'm guessing you're just another noob highschooler who is spending all your free time powerhunting to get to where you are so quickly. I'm in the guild, minding my own business, grinding away in a timesink and you come up and start making conversation, weird conversation like we're old friends instead of strangers. I don't understand how I "put my foot in my mouth" because I more or less ignored you, responding the bare minimum I could, until you went away.

Actually, far from noob, unfortunately, far from teenager, too. But when I was a teenager I did post on the boards with the character I had back then (it was Jaenus, since you like knowing other character names so much).

I believe the guild is a place where people can act slightly more familiar with each other, since everyone is there for the same reason, even if they don't know each other's names. I wouldn't have given you a glance or even hello if it were a place like the dais. If I acted like we were old friends, I would have called you by your name, instead of the "Hey, you want to learn something?" that I actually did say. I don't know how asking another sorcerer that I know is not a master (since I go to every promotion ceremony) if he wants to learn something is a "weird" conversation.

And I just happened that night to have two new/unpublished recipes, and you claimed you knew them "all" already, and basically dismissed me just as pompously as you do all ideas on the boards that are not yours. I thought I was being patient with you, in an effort to pass on recipes more IC than simply just posting it on the website. Sorry to attempt to break up your timesink with something remotely interesting.

And since you made abrupt assumptions, I'll clarify that Allereli is belled most of the time, spends a lot of time on CHE officer duties, teaching people guild and alchemy basics, helping people get skins and components, and sometimes gets less than 10k during an XXX. I read the boards, post if I feel I have a reasonable, rational idea, but don't waste my time on pipe dreams or arguing about balance. Why spend all that time arguing about the game if you claim you don't play it that much?

[StrayRogue]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/Worf_notagain.gif

"OMG THEY MADE RES AFFECT DOTS CRIE CRIE CRIE" *FROK*

[StrayRogue]

What cracks me up about V is that he thinks he's so smart and knowledgable about a GAME (lollerskates) but he fails to realize exactly wtf RP is. I've never met anyone take OOG stuff into the actual game in such a manner before. Really pathetic. Bring back the old decent, solid, heroic, villainous and worthy sorcerers. Not wankers like this.

[crb]

I've only gotten about 50 RPAs, I must be clueless huh?

Just because I hold characters responsible for the actions of their players, doesn't mean I don't know what RPA is dipshit.

Why do you even still post here, didn't you quit?

[Shifted]

Take 217. No component cost, nice duration, self lk, prevention of item loss from disarm. It is one of the best and cheapest pet spells in game. I know I wish I knew it. 240 too, 240 is ridiculous. Ya, the mana cost if high, but if you have a swarm the mana cost is well worth it. 240+swarm=frying with less mana overall than hunting normally, and exponentially quicker.

Ok, haven't got much farther than this. If you're gonna bitch about Clerics, at least get the spells right. You're talking about 218, spirit servant. And 240... 40 mana for 30 secs? And the only time 240 would help in a swarm would be if we had a decent mass cs-based attack spell. we have 1, 319, but it also has a cooldown period after, so there is no recasting it. and the spell takes about 30 secs to end, anyways.

I haven't heard anyone mention sacrifice yet.

If you really want 218 that bad... consider being nice to a cleric and they can imbed a few for you. Problem solved.

[Gelston]

I've only gotten about 50 RPAs, I must be clueless huh?

Just because I hold characters responsible for the actions of their players, doesn't mean I don't know what RPA is dipshit.

Why do you even still post here, didn't you quit?

I've gotten RPAs just for being in a room during an invasion. They don't really mean much. Not saying you don't RP, but getting an RPA doesn't mean you RP. Michaelous got RPAs.

[StrayRogue]

I've only gotten about 50 RPAs, I must be clueless huh?

Just because I hold characters responsible for the actions of their players, doesn't mean I don't know what RPA is dipshit.

Why do you even still post here, didn't you quit?

L2Grammar.

Learning what ROLEPLAY is (emphasis on ROLE) would help as well.

Warclaidhm got an RPA. You get RPA's for standing in line at merchants. RPA's don't mean shit. Just like your worthless whining here and on the officials. Despite you're self-deluded machinations, you're pretty much a laughing stock to the entire GS populace. You're Tsin without the money.

[crb]

Actually, far from noob, unfortunately, far from teenager, too. But when I was a teenager I did post on the boards with the character I had back then (it was Jaenus, since you like knowing other character names so much).

I believe the guild is a place where people can act slightly more familiar with each other, since everyone is there for the same reason, even if they don't know each other's names. I wouldn't have given you a glance or even hello if it were a place like the dais. If I acted like we were old friends, I would have called you by your name, instead of the "Hey, you want to learn something?" that I actually did say. I don't know how asking another sorcerer that I know is not a master (since I go to every promotion ceremony) if he wants to learn something is a "weird" conversation.

And I just happened that night to have two new/unpublished recipes, and you claimed you knew them "all" already, and basically dismissed me just as pompously as you do all ideas on the boards that are not yours. I thought I was being patient with you, in an effort to pass on recipes more IC than simply just posting it on the website. Sorry to attempt to break up your timesink with something remotely interesting.

And since you made abrupt assumptions, I'll clarify that Allereli is belled most of the time, spends a lot of time on CHE officer duties, teaching people guild and alchemy basics, helping people get skins and components, and sometimes gets less than 10k during an XXX. I read the boards, post if I feel I have a reasonable, rational idea, but don't waste my time on pipe dreams or arguing about balance. Why spend all that time arguing about the game if you claim you don't play it that much?


Man, Allereli, you're a holier-than-thou bitch.

So, because I said I probably new the recipes already I put my feet in my mouth? Oh, I'm sorry I'm not up to your high RP standards Ms. Perfect-RP, mayhaps I should attend your next class so you can teach me your oh so wise knowledge.

The fact is, of the regulars in the Illistim guild, where we were, I am the most advanced in alchemy, and in fact among non-Tsin sorcerers (atleast those who post their progress on the boards) I am. I know this because I interact with the people I usually see in the guild, yes, I do, I give them my left over ingredients usually because I am further along than them.

You just happened to have worked more on trinkets than on general alchemy and so got a little ahead of me there and learned a couple recipes.

So, I guess it was completely OOC for me to assume your sorceress knew no recipes I didn't already know because every other sorcerer I've interacted with in game since alchemy was released was of a lower rank them me?



Why spend all that time arguing about the game if you claim you don't play it that much

I don't play it much only in comparison, for me, 6 hours a week is a long time. And I've been playing it for over a decade. I've played this game longer than I've known my wife. So I'm wrong for being passionate about it? Or what? You're only allowed to be passionate about it if you've played for 2 years and powerhunted to cap in that time? Please, let me know the ground rules for passion.

[crb]

Ok, haven't got much farther than this. If you're gonna bitch about Clerics, at least get the spells right. You're talking about 218, spirit servant. And 240... 40 mana for 30 secs? And the only time 240 would help in a swarm would be if we had a decent mass cs-based attack spell. we have 1, 319, but it also has a cooldown period after, so there is no recasting it. and the spell takes about 30 secs to end, anyways.

I haven't heard anyone mention sacrifice yet.

If you really want 218 that bad... consider being nice to a cleric and they can imbed a few for you. Problem solved.
Oh excuse me for making a typo. That must invalidate all my points!

Clerics have spells that can hit multiple targets. But my favorite combo with 240 is 111, an option available to you.

[Shifted]

Oh, RPA's. yeah, i've gotten RPA's for taking someone younger hunting or just raising people.

[crb]

L2Grammar.

Learning what ROLEPLAY is (emphasis on ROLE) would help as well.

Warclaidhm got an RPA. You get RPA's for standing in line at merchants. RPA's don't mean shit. Just like your worthless whining here and on the officials. Despite you're self-deluded machinations, you're pretty much a laughing stock to the entire GS populace. You're Tsin without the money.
If only the opinion of a loser ex-player who everyone hated when he played, and who still participates in a forum for a game he doesn't play because he has no life outside of it, mattered. If only Stay, if only.

You know the times we argued on Psinet so many people called you a loser. Oh, I'm sure you'll respond and say people called me the same thing, and I believe that, but I'd rather people hated me for being opinionated and stubborn than how they hated you for being a douche akin to Rocksand.

[StrayRogue]

Oh, RPA's. yeah, i've gotten RPA's for taking someone younger hunting or just raising people.

You must be an RP legend!

V, get a life. One preferably outside GS. Then the players, the GMs and even us former players will stop laughing at you.

[Shifted]

Oh excuse me for making a typo. That must invalidate all my points!

Clerics have spells that can hit multiple targets. But my favorite combo with 240 is 111, an option available to you.

That, though, would also mean having to train in spell aiming, 2x to make it viable. Quite a bit of TP for the use of 3 spells.

[crb]

That, though, would also mean having to train in spell aiming, 2x to make it viable. Quite a bit of TP for the use of 3 spells.
Well, clerics spend 1 more TP for spell aiming than empaths or sorcerers, and 7 less TPs on armor than same, and less TPs on dodge than same, etc etc. You should have enough TPs.

Sure, you might not be able to triple as much, but spell aiming is easily gotten. All of my pures double in it without a problem.

[crb]

You must be an RP legend!

V, get a life. One preferably outside GS. Then the players, the GMs and even us former players will stop laughing at you.
You really have no clue how little I care about what people on a forum think of me. I have a pretty good life, I'm very happy. But, thanks for your concern chief.

[StrayRogue]

Of course you don't care. Thats why you can't stop pounding the keyboard with your petty little retorts.

[crb]

Not caring what someone thinks, and having the self-respect to stand up for one's self are not the same thing.

You can think whatever you want, giggle at me in secret if you think it makes your life better, but I don't put up with public bashing.

[Rathain]

Well, clerics spend 1 more TP for spell aiming than empaths or sorcerers, and 7 less TPs on armor than same, and less TPs on dodge than same, etc etc. You should have enough TPs.

Sure, you might not be able to triple as much, but spell aiming is easily gotten. All of my pures double in it without a problem.

That's true, but you're missing a point that you've brought up elsewhere. It's 1 mental TP when singling, and 2 mental TP's when doubled - considering that most pures convert mental to physical tp's, let's call it 6 physical tp's for good measure. Put together when both classes are fully doubled in spell aiming, that is a differential of 604 physical TP's. Since you seemed very much drawn to specifics, that is 604 more TP's a spell aiming cleric has to spend than a sorcerer.

Also, as you know, sorcerer's can train in spiritual lores (up to 2x), at the cost of one more mental TP than a cleric. A sorcerer 2x'ing spirit lore, however, is as likely as a cleric wearing double chain. Though it's not as conducive to pre-cap sorcerers, it's certainly an advantage for sorcerer's - given that hybrid TD's are more balanced than for either clerics or wizards, and costs are balanced for the respective elemental and spiritual lores.

About your point elsewhere... really, it makes sense for sorcerer's to have a less effective spiritual CS than clerics. Given that with the exception of web, 212 and 217 (with TD pushdowns), the MnS and MjS CS for an average pure cleric hunting OTF has about a ~65 percent chance of warding like level. It's no wonder you are complaining about spirit CS being lower, because your percent chance of warding is likely even lower. However, this is a training question, not a balance inquiry. You have the option of training in MnS, but may not have chosen to maximize it.

[crb]

That's true, but you're missing a point that you've brought up elsewhere. It's 1 mental TP when singling, and 2 mental TP's when doubled - considering that most pures convert mental to physical tp's, let's call it 6 physical tp's for good measure. Put together when both classes are fully doubled in spell aiming, that is a differential of 604 physical TP's. Since you seemed very much drawn to specifics, that is 604 more TP's a spell aiming cleric has to spend than a sorcerer.

Also, as you know, sorcerer's can train in spiritual lores (up to 2x), at the cost of one more mental TP than a cleric. A sorcerer 2x'ing spirit lore, however, is as likely as a cleric wearing double chain. Though it's not as conducive to pre-cap sorcerers, it's certainly an advantage for sorcerer's - given that hybrid TD's are more balanced than for either clerics or wizards, and costs are balanced for the respective elemental and spiritual lores.

About your point elsewhere... really, it makes sense for sorcerer's to have a less effective spiritual CS than clerics. Given that with the exception of web, 212 and 217 (with TD pushdowns), the MnS and MjS CS for an average pure cleric hunting OTF has about a ~65 percent chance of warding like level. It's no wonder you are complaining about spirit CS being lower, because your percent chance of warding is likely even lower. However, this is a training question, not a balance inquiry. You have the option of training in MnS, but may not have chosen to maximize it.
I would thank you Rathain for a leveled response using specifics. Your post would be the correct way to argue, you address the points, and not the poster.

I would agree that 604 physical TPs is alot, but that is the only skill clerics really have a disadvantage in. Does that counteract all the TP difference in armor use, MOC, physical training, first aid, all weapon skills, and CM? Sure, none of those skills a sorcerer or wizard will get 200 ranks in, but the differences are also larger, they add up overall to more in the long run.



Also, as you know, sorcerer's can train in spiritual lores (up to 2x), at the cost of one more mental TP than a cleric. A sorcerer 2x'ing spirit lore, however, is as likely as a cleric wearing double chain. Though it's not as conducive to pre-cap sorcerers, it's certainly an advantage for sorcerer's - given that hybrid TD's are more balanced than for either clerics or wizards, and costs are balanced for the respective elemental and spiritual lores.

One reason I said non-sphere-specific skills in my comparison is I do not believe low costs in sphere specific skills for hybrids are really an advantage. Yes, we have relatively low costs in spiritual lore and elemental lore, but also our NEED to train in these lores is greater. We have 3 different types of lore totallying 8 different lore-subtypes that can affect our spells.



However, this is a training question, not a balance inquiry. You have the option of training in MnS, but may not have chosen to maximize it.

No, that isn't the case. The issue I have a problem with is not a result of sorcerers being less likely to train in MnS than clerics or empaths, or being less likely to train in MnE than wizards. The issue is that, with the exact same training, we will have a lower CS, with no obvious power tradeoff for that. You can have everyone triple up to 100/100/100 and the sorcerer will have lower CS in 2/3 circles than everyone else. I'm not asking for a better CS, just an equal CS. I would like to use spells like web, 415, and 413 with the same efficiency as pures from every other pure profession.

[Rathain]

I would agree that 604 physical TPs is alot, but that is the only skill clerics really have a disadvantage in. Does that counteract all the TP difference in armor use, MOC, physical training, first aid, all weapon skills, and CM? Sure, none of those skills a sorcerer or wizard will get 200 ranks in, but the differences are also larger, they add up overall to more in the long run.


For first aid, I could certainly understand that. Clerics have traditionally been rescuers. Having lower cost training in first aid is certainly not that illogical because of it.

Even among the pures and hybrids, not all casters are the same. Casters of the elemental variety are supposed to be less physical and more mental, simply by design of their magical archetype. There was a post by Naos some time back reinforcing this, as an explanation for why costs for MIU and AS was lower for wizards. Sorcerer's inherit not only a portion of their elemental sphere, but a portion of that limitation in physical prowess that accompanies training in elemental spheres, and that's most visible in failed casts when wearing heavy armor.

Really, you talked about having 8 different lore types to train in. Clerics don't have any clear delineated path to redefine their characters for a specific type of magic, but physical skills are wear clerics can play around. If you don't understand what I mean, ask someone who still plays a high level cleric, like Asarious.

Once this problem is rectified, I would imagine TP costs will be adjusted. Ask on the cleric boards if some of the more outspoken members would mind if TP's were to be adjusted - you'll find that Windi, LordKrip, and others have said they would be fine with it, so as long as they gave clerics a spell list and lore advantages that provided different interesting training pathways.


One reason I said non-sphere-specific skills in my comparison is I do not believe low costs in sphere specific skills for hybrids are really an advantage. Yes, we have relatively low costs in spiritual lore and elemental lore, but also our NEED to train in these lores is greater. We have 3 different types of lore totallying 8 different lore-subtypes that can affect our spells.


Yes, but viability isn't influenced by diversity. That diversity is nonetheless the core that increases post-cap potential. Clerics don't have this. They can develop into weapon swingers, but would be among the weakest at this.


No, that isn't the case. The issue I have a problem with is not a result of sorcerers being less likely to train in MnS than clerics or empaths, or being less likely to train in MnE than wizards. The issue is that, with the exact same training, we will have a lower CS, with no obvious power tradeoff for that. You can have everyone triple up to 100/100/100 and the sorcerer will have lower CS in 2/3 circles than everyone else. I'm not asking for a better CS, just an equal CS. I would like to use spells like web, 415, and 413 with the same efficiency as pures from every other pure profession.


Power tradeoff is a relative term, and is where your argument disagrees with most everyone else. The power tradeoff, as I see it, is in the potency of the 700 spell list, the more balanced elemental and spiritual TD's, access to several non-warding mass effect spells, and two utility spells that are nothing short of amazing. It's pretty darn good. You might grow tired of having alternatives while hunting, but you'll find that it's what clerics and empaths have been asking for. Not for a potent killer spell, but something that is an alternative to the usual channeling of the same few spells.

AestheticDeath mentioned a cleric earlier that hunted with two open hands in OTF precap. Just to clear up things, that cleric used haste imbeds for channeling 312, switched stances more than some squares, and used scrolls for 410 and quake. I didn't play my old cleric in any traditional format, but I made it work because I was willing to do more than target griffin/incant 317. When my cleric got hit in offensive, it had the potential to kick my his arse for a long stun. My cleric probably should have died many more times than he did. It's not any innate advantage to clerics really, but a bit of strategy and a lot of luck.

[Allereli]

LOL at being called holier than thou by Virilneus... :help: You said I was acting weird, I simply explained my thought process.

There's passionate, then there's making other people roll their eyes with 90% of what you post. But as I said in my original post in this thread, I simply suggest pressing the ignore button on the officials for people who didn't like reading your ideas, or your putting down of others' suggestions.


You just happened to have worked more on trinkets than on general alchemy

I believe that is impossible. Don't you have to have greater or equal ranks in general as the other two? i.e. you can be 40/30/40, but not 40/30/50. Maybe I'll attempt to find out myself later this week.

Anyway since our one and only encounter dissolved into the same crap fest it does on the boards, next time I'll know to just be moving on to the next set of arcane masters in hopes of learning more recipes, and when you need a nomination, one of the others will easily be able to contact me and I'll show up, do my part, and move on once again.

[crb]

There's passionate, then there's making other people roll their eyes with 90% of what you post. But as I said in my original post in this thread, I simply suggest pressing the ignore button on the officials for people who didn't like reading your ideas, or your putting down of others' suggestions.

I don't really care how much your eyes roll. Nor am I a nanny concerned with the feelings of others when I "put down others' suggestions." All ideas were not created equal, we don't have idea socialism that I know of.

I'm just going to point out that most of those who play sorcerers as their primes have posted here saying they agree with most of what I say, and that I know what I'm talking about mechanically. Only the RP snob and the defective fanboy haven't, and that, I think I can live with.

[crb]

Even among the pures and hybrids, not all casters are the same. Casters of the elemental variety are supposed to be less physical and more mental, simply by design of their magical archetype. There was a post by Naos some time back reinforcing this, as an explanation for why costs for MIU and AS was lower for wizards. Sorcerer's inherit not only a portion of their elemental sphere, but a portion of that limitation in physical prowess that accompanies training in elemental spheres, and that's most visible in failed casts when wearing heavy armor.

But the TP costs do not hold this out.

Sorcerers are not averaged between wizards & clerics in TP costs, only in hinderance. Wizards in fact also have slightly lower armor training costs than sorcerers, and in almost all skills clerics have the same mental training costs.



Once this problem is rectified, I would imagine TP costs will be adjusted. Ask on the cleric boards if some of the more outspoken members would mind if TP's were to be adjusted - you'll find that Windi, LordKrip, and others have said they would be fine with it, so as long as they gave clerics a spell list and lore advantages that provided different interesting training pathways.

Having discussed issues with them on the boards before, I'll respectfully disagree with your characterization of their reasonableness.



The power tradeoff, as I see it, is in the potency of the 700 spell list, the more balanced elemental and spiritual TD's, access to several non-warding mass effect spells, and two utility spells that are nothing short of amazing.

Ahh, but there is where someone peeking in to the sorcerer profession ends up with a different view than someone who actually uses the spells.

10 years ago I would agree with the assessment that the 700 circle is more potent, now, it plain is not. Most of our attack spells are niche novelty attack spells. We're the only pure profession without a native AS based attack spell. Our prime attack spells, 719, 702, 705, have all been downtweaked to the point where they are less powerful than the spells that were copied from them.

IF that was a trade off, weaker minor circle CS in exchange for a greater than average warding margin in the 700s, or higher damage potential in the 700s, I would be fine, but the fact is, the 700 attack spells aren't anything special anymore. Why do you think my primary hunting spell is 111?

I don't see the utility benefit. 725 is probably the worst pet spell in the game. You need to master a very tedious guild skill just to use it in town, you need to train in a lot of lore. It is expensive to cast (especially compared to prep/cast pet spells of other professions).

730 is a great spell, but requires components spread across the realms, .75 to 1x training in necro lore to use like level.

740 is just chronomages for 50% off.

But every profession has neat utility spells and higher end abilities. They're all unique so they may not be apples::apples, but they are all nice pieces of fruit.

If what clerics want is more options while hunting, I want the same thing, I want 118 (warding based) 110, 409, 415, 413 to be viable options for sorcerers. If I'm not allowed to have them, I want to see an attack power increase in the 700 circle to justify that.

[Numbers]

Seriously, I want a recording of that rift song.

[Sean of the Thread]

Me too wtf.

This thread is starting not to deliver. C'mon 2x.

[Doughboy]

Fuck it, delete sorcs. That'd make for some good reading then.

[Methais]

Seriously, I want a recording of that rift song.


Me too wtf.

Maybe Bob will record one for us. Bob? Bob?

.......BOB?!?!?!?!?

[Doughboy]

Maybe Bob will record one for us. Bob? Bob?

.......BOB?!?!?!?!?

Oddly enough I was just thinking that....

The old Warclaidhm song was epic.

[Necromancer]

V's head would explode if they were deleted. It would *almost* be worth it.

[Celephais]

Still sorcerers are incredibly powerful and diverse classes, who have some very unique abilities. All of their abilities might not be combat viable, but there aren't a whole lot of situations where the sorcerer as a whole isn't combat viable. Sure everyone wants a little spice added to their class, but there are tons of to-dos on the devs plate, and a class that isn't boring, and isn't underpowered shouldn't expect to be at the head of the line. I'm not saying don't get in line, just that crying about it doesn't help the whole "whiney sorcs" mentality.
I might have missed it CRB, but I didn't see you reply to this, kind of curious on your thoughts with regard to it...

Another thing I would like to add that hasn't really fit into the design philosphy of sorcs but I think is overlooked, Sorcs, while "pures" are of a hybrid nature, in that they're not Spirit focused, and they're not Elemental focused, I understand the drawbacks built into no access to a major sphere, but I'm under the impression a lot of sorcerers seem to think their class should be the most powerful of spellcasters in GS, when to me from a design prespective they should fill the role as a more rounded casting class. In line with that I do agree that Clerics should not be nearly as physical as they are. (and I'm sad empaths aren't getting MnM ... as they would have been the "sorcerers" of Mental/Spirit... then we should get a "sorcerer" of Mental/Elemental.)

[crb]

I might have missed it CRB, but I didn't see you reply to this, kind of curious on your thoughts with regard to it...

Another thing I would like to add that hasn't really fit into the design philosphy of sorcs but I think is overlooked, Sorcs, while "pures" are of a hybrid nature, in that they're not Spirit focused, and they're not Elemental focused, I understand the drawbacks built into no access to a major sphere, but I'm under the impression a lot of sorcerers seem to think their class should be the most powerful of spellcasters in GS, when to me from a design prespective they should fill the role as a more rounded casting class. In line with that I do agree that Clerics should not be nearly as physical as they are. (and I'm sad empaths aren't getting MnM ... as they would have been the "sorcerers" of Mental/Spirit... then we should get a "sorcerer" of Mental/Elemental.)
Your comment is accurate, but it also illustrates alot of the anti-sorcerer negativity. I probably didn't respond to it, because I agreed with it. I don't think any sorcerer has been saying that we need things worked on more than other professions, or demanding GMs work on our profession more than others. I know I haven't.

I cannot explain it, but sorcery seems to attract a certain type of player, I think, with some exceptions (Jesse) we have some of the smartest, most creative, and most analytical players. We think of new ideas, or find bugs, and we post about them, and we're called whiners.

So I guess it is a perception thing. Do you think all players should wait until called on to speak, do we have to raise our hands, get a GM's attention, and then post an idea? Or can we just post things as we think of them?

That being said, even though we do not have "gurus" anymore, our defacto guru has been MIA and mostly uncommunicative for over a year, that does leave us with more questions than answers.

Then also when I post about a small fix, such as that 100/400 CS fix, it is a small fix, it wouldn't take any any development time, if Warden decided to fix it it would be a 1 minute change. 5 minutes if they bother QCing it.

[thefarmer]

I cannot explain it, but sorcery seems to attract a certain type of player, I think, with some exceptions (Jesse) we have some of the smartest, most creative, and most analytical players. We think of new ideas, or find bugs, and we post about them, and we're called whiners.

This is probably a factor in people disliking you and why they think you are elitist.

[Necromancer]

Plus I'm way smarter and more humble than V.

[Warriorbird]

Sorcs are like the people who use cheat codes for FPSes. It is easy mode GS.

[Stanley Burrell]

Idspispopd.

[Eoghain]

(and I'm sad empaths aren't getting MnM ... as they would have been the "sorcerers" of Mental/Spirit... then we should get a "sorcerer" of Mental/Elemental.)

I think we should leave sorcs as the main hybrid pure casters and give them MnM too. :D

[Celephais]

I think you get the "whining" mentality when you start complaining that your spells aren't as powerful as another classes... not that I'm innocent in this regard (I'll push for wizard improvements all day long... but I rather understand that wizards do not need more combat viability). Then I hear complaining about demons and animates, they are fucking cool... that's the kind of spice I think every class would benefit from, it's not the most powerful and might require some work, but it's got that fun factor...

Enjoy the game, report bugs, submit ideas, but don't complain about your spells getting "ripped off" (all CS based one hit spells are suddenly rip offs of 702, all CS based spells that have multiple hits are rip offs of 719? ... it's not like the GS mechanics leave a lot of leeway).

[Eoghain]

Celephais, where do you get all of the excellent Calvin and Hobbes comics from?

[Celephais]

Celephais, where do you get all of the excellent Calvin and Hobbes comics from?
I have every one of them on my computer at home... I just wrote a program (HTTP Handler if you want to get technical) that just picks a random non-sunday one to be my signature every time it's viewed. Glad to hear you like it :)

[Gan]

Celephais, where do you get all of the excellent Calvin and Hobbes comics from?


I have every one of them on my computer at home... I just wrote a program (HTTP Handler if you want to get technical) that just picks a random non-sunday one to be my signature every time it's viewed. Glad to hear you like it :)

x2

One can never have enough C&H.

I have almost all of his books/compilations. I cant wait until my son gets old enough to read and understand them.

[Necromancer]

Agreed C. The mentality is maddening. The near riots that ensued over demons because they couldn't 'watch' a room like familiars when they can do so much more was a perfect example. Sorcerers generally don't appreciate what they have, and an unfortunate vocal minority continues to push it towards a cookie-cutter profession under the guise of 'game balance' and 'fairness'.

[Stanley Burrell]

There is no doubt in my mind that like all threads with more than five responses, this thread will succumb to micro-Khaladon tangent splitting. THEREFORE (and preemptively, to deter the tare'rists):

Celephais' signature wins this thread.

[AestheticDeath]

AestheticDeath mentioned a cleric earlier that hunted with two open hands in OTF precap. Just to clear up things, that cleric used haste imbeds for channeling 312, switched stances more than some squares, and used scrolls for 410 and quake. I didn't play my old cleric in any traditional format, but I made it work because I was willing to do more than target griffin/incant 317. When my cleric got hit in offensive, it had the potential to kick my his arse for a long stun. My cleric probably should have died many more times than he did. It's not any innate advantage to clerics really, but a bit of strategy and a lot of luck.

You forget that I hunted that cleric as well, for a short time before it resold. I had a very very easy time of it. I had a lvl 97/98 sorcerer at the same time who was like 5-6 levels older. Using the same gear on each one, the cleric died less while hunting in offensive, than the sorcerer did hunting in guarded.

I didn't use haste or channel, I just cast a few different spells, more often then not using 302. I don't recall using 312/317 overmuch because of the mana cost.

And this character was not a specific one I was mentioning more one in a group of them I had experienced either by playing or watching.

I think this pre-cap cleric had a DS as high or higher than the capped rogues with 3x dodging, and all the MnS, and MnE spells.

[Mistomeer]

If what clerics want is more options while hunting, I want the same thing, I want 118 (warding based) 110, 409, 415, 413 to be viable options for sorcerers. If I'm not allowed to have them, I want to see an attack power increase in the 700 circle to justify that.

415 isn't viable? It was viable for me with a wizard from about 40-70. I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't be viable in OTF given the easy crits. I would question your training plan if you can't hunt with it.



3. I'd trade 400's for 200's any day of the week. 200s are awesome. 400s are the most widely available spells in the game.

And that's how I know it's pointless to argue with you.
400 Circle give a more AS, CS, DS, and TD and brings with it e-wave and major e-wave, but you think the 200 circle is better. Also, availability has nothing to do with the value of the circle.

[GuildRat]

It's soooooo tedious hunting a cleric tho, compared to hunting a rogue...someone summed it up best as "spamming 302" for 100 trains.

[Mistomeer]

Clerics are a bit overpowered defensively. You have to admit it really.

Let's go hunt some time then.


I mean going out hunting empty handed, pre-cap? Its difficult for others to do that even when they are far post cap.

I don't know anyone that does it pre-cap without high end gear or loads of outside spells.


You get heavy armor, and high DS, high spiritual TD etc.. Easily hunting from guarded, even offensive sometimes.

Heavy armor is higher hindrance.
High spiritual TD doesn't stop sorc spells.


I'm not saying it is bad really, but you have to realize defensively they are above and beyond some of the others, perhaps all of them, though I can't say for sure since there are several professions I have not played in a while.

I would say that you have much better defense when you consider you can hunt bards (1030) and rangers (616) from guarded.


And when you put them in chain armors, full shield/brawl and still able to get enough triples for a high enough CS/DS to plink in offensive? Jeeze.

Most of the clerics I know stop at brig because of hindrance. For that matter, I'd gladly trade my brig for doubles.
Full shield and brawl? Okay, you get higher DS if you 1x shield/sword because of the sword enchant. Wizards are in offensive for all of 1/4 of a second and don't have to channel. Also, you can actually 2x shield/sword, 1x dodge and hunt from guarded with bards and rangers giving them the defensive edge.


It's not a rant, and I could care less if they get changed in any way. But you can't ignore the facts.
Every profession has their advantages and disadvantages. Sorcs and clerics are no different. Sure, sorcs have had their nerfs, just like every profession, and that's what makes this so ironic. Before the 702 and 719 nerfs, sorcs were possibly the most overpowered profession in game and Virilneus got to enjoy those days.

[crb]

415 isn't viable? It was viable for me with a wizard from about 40-70. I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't be viable in OTF given the easy crits. I would question your training plan if you can't hunt with it.


In case you missed the huge thread on the officials, wizards do not have a penalty to 400s circle CS, sorcerers do. That is the point, that is what I want to change.



And that's how I know it's pointless to argue with you.
400 Circle give a more AS, CS, DS, and TD and brings with it e-wave and major e-wave, but you think the 200 circle is better. Also, availability has nothing to do with the value of the circle.

Your last sentence is pretty ridiculous. Value is not at all related to availability? You've never heard of supply and demand? Honestly?

Buffs are buffs, they can be gotten. You also give 410 and 435 too much credit, many creatures are immune to them and or very resistant, they're much better for PvP than hunting. In anycase, 435 is a mana waste, and 410 is easily imbedded. Not to say they aren't useful, but they aren't as useful as the 200s...

213, 218, 220, 225, 240. If the circle had nothing but those 5 spells it'd be more useful than the 400s still.

Don't forget, I have a capped empath I play too, so I use those spells on a daily basis, so from actual personal use I am of the opinion that Major Spirit circle is better than the Minor Elemental. But I guess you won't be responding because apparently having that opinion makes me pointless to argue with.

[crb]

Every profession has their advantages and disadvantages. Sorcs and clerics are no different. Sure, sorcs have had their nerfs, just like every profession, and that's what makes this so ironic. Before the 702 and 719 nerfs, sorcs were possibly the most overpowered profession in game and Virilneus got to enjoy those days.

See Repel, meditate.

[Davenshire]

You are such a tool Viril n' puss.

No one is arguing your numbers, you so like to throw out constantly.

Just because TP's don't add up between professions doesn't make them "unbalanced."

It is like your in a empty room yelling at the walls, "clerics get heavier armor, heavier armor I don't waaaaaaaa!!!!"

Go play a cleric and see how much fun they are. I play a high level wizard and a young level cleric. I don't care clerics get in heavier armor, good for them. Maybe it'll give them an edge when they come pull my ass out of the fire next time I die.

My cleric is going on inactive reserve come the new year. WHY? cause he is boring as hell to play. You want the 200's? I can only asume you want the 200's for some AS boost and 240. (clap) Which is where all your arguements tend to go, "make my sorcerer more powerful!!!!"

415 kicks ass if you train for it. I don't but I have seen many that do. Are you upset because you have to sacrifice CS in other areas to improve your CS in the Minor sphere? QQ

My main problem with your cry assing is anyone that disagrees with you obviously doesn't understand what you are trying to say. They must be several steps below the plane you are on.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is you sit and cry ass at the top of your lungs. you throw out numbers over and over and when someone disagrees with you they must not have understood it so you repeat yourself. if they do agree with you you repeat yourself just to see your numbers again.

A lot more goes into class balance then just Training Points. I am glad there are little twists and turns. You are some sad sack who dwells in his cloak of self loathing and will never be happy until your sorcerer is immune to anyhitng thrown at him. and can bolt as well as a wizard, defend as good as a warrior, and whatever else is on yer wish list.



...and then you'll puss because it is finally to easy for you.

Please, give the 80% of the forums that can't stand it a reprieve and STFU.


Your numbers are really great, and I am glad they add up, but they are a small part of a larger picture of game balance.

Fuck your even playing field, you don't understand the concept.

What you really need to do is throw out a comment once in awhile. You don't, you constantly complain to the point it irritates people. Lke if you continue to rage against the machine (gemstone GM's) they will finally break down. In your case I hope they don't. I wonder if you've ever applied to work as a GM. If so I can only assume you've been turned away, and I hope that will always be the case.

You have no sense of uniqness between classes. I don't see any other pure cloth wearers throwing the tantrums you do. More likely then not they do understand there is discrpencies, but they play because they enjoy the game. And they aren't major problems that take away from that class.

You need to take a break form the game. seriously. a nice long one.

[crb]

Agreed C. The mentality is maddening. The near riots that ensued over demons because they couldn't 'watch' a room like familiars when they can do so much more was a perfect example. Sorcerers generally don't appreciate what they have, and an unfortunate vocal minority continues to push it towards a cookie-cutter profession under the guise of 'game balance' and 'fairness'.
Okay, this post should finally seal the deal for everyone that Jesse is crazy.

He, the CS heavy dark elf sorcerer, inferred that I, the mutant dwarf fireball throwing sorcerer, am trying to promote a cookie cutter profession.

Almost every change I suggest for sorcerers or any other game aspect is always from the standpoint of encouraging more diversity. Even if you hate me you should be able to admit to yourself that I bring that topic up as justification for many of the things I propose.

[crb]

You are such a tool Viril n' puss.

No one is arguing your numbers, you so like to throw out constantly.

Just because TP's don't add up between professions doesn't make them "unbalanced."

It is like your in a empty room yelling at the walls, "clerics get heavier armor, heavier armor I don't waaaaaaaa!!!!"

Go play a cleric and see how much fun they are. I play a high level wizard and a young level cleric. I don't care clerics get in heavier armor, good for them. Maybe it'll give them an edge when they come pull my ass out of the fire next time I die.

My cleric is going on inactive reserve come the new year. WHY? cause he is boring as hell to play. You want the 200's? I can only asume you want the 200's for some AS boost and 240. (clap) Which is where all your arguements tend to go, "make my sorcerer more powerful!!!!"

415 kicks ass if you train for it. I don't but I have seen many that do. Are you upset because you have to sacrifice CS in other areas to improve your CS in the Minor sphere? QQ

My main problem with your cry assing is anyone that disagrees with you obviously doesn't understand what you are trying to say. They must be several steps below the plane you are on.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is you sit and cry ass at the top of your lungs. you throw out numbers over and over and when someone disagrees with you they must not have understood it so you repeat yourself. if they do agree with you you repeat yourself just to see your numbers again.

A lot more goes into class balance then just Training Points. I am glad there are little twists and turns. You are some sad sack who dwells in his cloak of self loathing and will never be happy until your sorcerer is immune to anyhitng thrown at him. and can bolt as well as a wizard, defend as good as a warrior, and whatever else is on yer wish list.



...and then you'll puss because it is finally to easy for you.

Please, give the 80% of the forums that can't stand it a reprieve and STFU.


Your numbers are really great, and I am glad they add up, but they are a small part of a larger picture of game balance.

Fuck your even playing field, you don't understand the concept.

What you really need to do is throw out a comment once in awhile. You don't, you constantly complain to the point it irritates people. Lke if you continue to rage against the machine (gemstone GM's) they will finally break down. In your case I hope they don't. I wonder if you've ever applied to work as a GM. If so I can only assume you've been turned away, and I hope that will always be the case.

You have no sense of uniqness between classes. I don't see any other pure cloth wearers throwing the tantrums you do. More likely then not they do understand there is discrpencies, but they play because they enjoy the game. And they aren't major problems that take away from that class.

You need to take a break form the game. seriously. a nice long one.
A. Look up what the insult "tool" actually means. You and a few others have been using it incorrectly.

B. :violin:

I feel no need for any further response to your post, other than to quote it to make sure everyone gives it a good read.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Okay, this post should finally seal the deal for everyone that Jesse is crazy.

He, the CS heavy dark elf sorcerer, inferred that I, the mutant dwarf fireball throwing sorcerer, am trying to promote a cookie cutter profession.

Almost every change I suggest for sorcerers or any other game aspect is always from the standpoint of encouraging more diversity. Even if you hate me you should be able to admit to yourself that I bring that topic up as justification for many of the things I propose.

I only have like a lvl 25 sorcerer, but just for clarification... don't all sorcerers double in spell aim? I thought it was a great boon to do so. If that's the case, aren't you already cookie cutter?

[GuildRat]

I only have like a lvl 25 sorcerer, but just for clarification... don't all sorcerers double in spell aim? I thought it was a great boon to do so. If that's the case, aren't you already cookie cutter?


2x spell aim for focused implosion(kind of a recent change, GS4'ish time frame)...my 27th train sorc I've had for like 10 years does.

[Davenshire]

I feel no need for any further response to your post, other than to quote it to make sure everyone gives it a good read.



Sweet thanks, I not only pointed out how much fo a fucking idiot you are, with your "this is game balance- I Viril n' puss from the Mountain top say it is." but I get to do it twice because you were nice enough to quote me.

You really don't have a clue, and I wonder if you ever will.



Thanks! :)

[crb]

I think you get the "whining" mentality when you start complaining that your spells aren't as powerful as another classes... not that I'm innocent in this regard (I'll push for wizard improvements all day long... but I rather understand that wizards do not need more combat viability). Then I hear complaining about demons and animates, they are fucking cool... that's the kind of spice I think every class would benefit from, it's not the most powerful and might require some work, but it's got that fun factor...

Enjoy the game, report bugs, submit ideas, but don't complain about your spells getting "ripped off" (all CS based one hit spells are suddenly rip offs of 702, all CS based spells that have multiple hits are rip offs of 719? ... it's not like the GS mechanics leave a lot of leeway).
Sure... but what is good for the goose is good for the gander, eh Celephais?

I post asking not to bring anyone else down, but to raise sorcerers and wizards up by removing the penalty we get to foraging, and rangers get all bent out of shape and think I am attacking them (for the record, I think rangers should be the best foragers, was never trying to change that).

I post asking not to bring anyone else down, but to raise sorcerers up, by getting rid of the hybrid CS penalty. Wizards, clerics, and even I think a couple empaths get all bent out of shape trying to protect their turf.

Clerics have a hissy fit about 318 being on scrolls because they think it is their turf.

People say sorcerers are whiners, people say sorcerers have it tough, Jesse comes and says other sorcerers (not him, never him) can't let the nerfs to 719 and 702 go.

That is all backwards bullshit. The real issue is people who don't play sorcerers forget about all the nerfs and the huge development dry spell we had from like 1998 to 2005 or whenever. People think we have no right to ask for anything because we supposedly have the best attack spells in the game.

It isn't that sorcerers have to get over the nerfs, it is that other professions have to get over the power sorcerers had, and lost, 10 years ago.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I personally hope they nerf implosion.

[crb]

Sweet thanks, I not only pointed out how much fo a fucking idiot you are, with your "this is game balance- I Viril n' puss from the Mountain top say it is." but I get to do it twice because you were nice enough to quote me.

You really don't have a clue, and I wonder if you ever will.



Thanks! :)
You sure did sport! You really got me with that well thought out and coherent post. The clever "Viril n'puss" comment wounded my pride so very harshly. The way you ranted to the point of myocardial infarction and then told me to take a break was genius! Well done!

Let me just quote that gem one more time.


You are such a tool Viril n' puss.

No one is arguing your numbers, you so like to throw out constantly.

Just because TP's don't add up between professions doesn't make them "unbalanced."

It is like your in a empty room yelling at the walls, "clerics get heavier armor, heavier armor I don't waaaaaaaa!!!!"

Go play a cleric and see how much fun they are. I play a high level wizard and a young level cleric. I don't care clerics get in heavier armor, good for them. Maybe it'll give them an edge when they come pull my ass out of the fire next time I die.

My cleric is going on inactive reserve come the new year. WHY? cause he is boring as hell to play. You want the 200's? I can only asume you want the 200's for some AS boost and 240. (clap) Which is where all your arguements tend to go, "make my sorcerer more powerful!!!!"

415 kicks ass if you train for it. I don't but I have seen many that do. Are you upset because you have to sacrifice CS in other areas to improve your CS in the Minor sphere? QQ

My main problem with your cry assing is anyone that disagrees with you obviously doesn't understand what you are trying to say. They must be several steps below the plane you are on.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is you sit and cry ass at the top of your lungs. you throw out numbers over and over and when someone disagrees with you they must not have understood it so you repeat yourself. if they do agree with you you repeat yourself just to see your numbers again.

A lot more goes into class balance then just Training Points. I am glad there are little twists and turns. You are some sad sack who dwells in his cloak of self loathing and will never be happy until your sorcerer is immune to anyhitng thrown at him. and can bolt as well as a wizard, defend as good as a warrior, and whatever else is on yer wish list.



...and then you'll puss because it is finally to easy for you.

Please, give the 80% of the forums that can't stand it a reprieve and STFU.


Your numbers are really great, and I am glad they add up, but they are a small part of a larger picture of game balance.

Fuck your even playing field, you don't understand the concept.

What you really need to do is throw out a comment once in awhile. You don't, you constantly complain to the point it irritates people. Lke if you continue to rage against the machine (gemstone GM's) they will finally break down. In your case I hope they don't. I wonder if you've ever applied to work as a GM. If so I can only assume you've been turned away, and I hope that will always be the case.

You have no sense of uniqness between classes. I don't see any other pure cloth wearers throwing the tantrums you do. More likely then not they do understand there is discrpencies, but they play because they enjoy the game. And they aren't major problems that take away from that class.

You need to take a break form the game. seriously. a nice long one.

[crb]

I personally hope they nerf implosion.
They did, a few times. Score one for the hobbitses!

[Mistomeer]

I personally hope they nerf implosion.

Hahaha. I do too. Remember that if they do, Virilneus has no reason to complain because he's already said that it sucks.

[Rathain]

You forget that I hunted that cleric as well, for a short time before it resold. I had a very very easy time of it. I had a lvl 97/98 sorcerer at the same time who was like 5-6 levels older. Using the same gear on each one, the cleric died less while hunting in offensive, than the sorcerer did hunting in guarded.

I didn't use haste or channel, I just cast a few different spells, more often then not using 302. I don't recall using 312/317 overmuch because of the mana cost.

And this character was not a specific one I was mentioning more one in a group of them I had experienced either by playing or watching.

I think this pre-cap cleric had a DS as high or higher than the capped rogues with 3x dodging, and all the MnS, and MnE spells.

I'm not saying you didn't, just clarifying because not many clerics in OTF hunt with two empty hands. Actually, other than Windi and Shaukal, I've seen every pre or post cap cleric use either a shield or runestaff. You may have hunted the cleric for a week or two before selling, but I hunted him for the duration of a few years.

I didn't see the training on the sorcerer, but there might be several reasons why he died less. One, elves have a decently high non CMAN maneuver dodging bonus that's higher than dark elves. It might also be because he wasn't trained to maximize CS. At the time when players were handed two fixskills in a very short time, I experimented by incrementally increasing PF and CM. I found a good range, and stuck with it. He was dodging griffin maneuvers and construct maneuvers at ~train 92 with frequency. AS and DS attacks though kicked his ass, especially when dispelled, prone, or with FoF. As for whether his DS was higher than a decently post cap rogue, you'd know that a lot better than me. It makes sense though, that pures have more defense. If I recall, if spelled to the max, it was probably ~500 in offensive. Self spelled was a little over 400. Overall though, I used to train my characters with defense in mind. Glad to know he survived a bit more.

[Tolwynn]

In case you missed the huge thread on the officials, wizards do not have a penalty to 400s circle CS, sorcerers do. That is the point, that is what I want to change.

Shouldn't it stand to reason that elementalist wizards would be better at casting elemental spells than a hybrid elemental/spiritual sorcerer?

[Necromancer]

Reason has little to do with V's arguments.

Calling Querthose cookie-cutter is cute, but it's not any more accurate than considering V to be some sort of mutant sorcerer. What you fail to see in your (il)logics, V is that the end result of the space from which you decry game development is, as others have accused you, all pure professions being functionally identical except for sorcerers who'd have some sort of substantial advantage.

You say you support professional differentiation, but you do so selectively. When it's an advantage for sorcery, you argue that they should be doing it better than anyone else, and when you see an advantage another pure profession has over sorcery, you shriek "UNFAIR!" and try to 'balance' things out by making them identical.

This, along with your self-aggrandizing and asinine belittlements, would be the reason why no one takes you remotely seriously.

Your arguments do nothing more than situate you firmly at the center of attention (and you'll use any tactic possible to remain so), which is your primary goal. It's more than a little pathetic.

*waits for V's head to explode*

[crb]

Shouldn't it stand to reason that elementalist wizards would be better at casting elemental spells than a hybrid elemental/spiritual sorcerer?
That is the IC justification for it, but if you wanted an IC justification, I could say that because of their hybrid nature sorcerers are able to gain a greater benefit from knowledge of their 100 circle spells to help their 400 circle CS than a normal person who wasn't tuned to two spheres could.

IC justifications aren't a big deal, GMs can write them to justify almost any mechanic they want.

I want to know where the balance is in this. Now with Empaths not having the MnM circle that means sorcerers are effectively singled out to have a negative bias over their heads for 2 out of their 3 spells.

The argument basically is that I think there isn't any power increase to justify that when compared to every other pure. Others say that sorcerers have good TDs or good attack spells and that justifies it.

[crb]

Reason has little to do with V's arguments.

Calling Querthose cookie-cutter is cute, but it's not any more accurate than considering V to be some sort of mutant sorcerer. What you fail to see in your (il)logics, V is that the end result of the space from which you decry game development is, as others have accused you, all pure professions being functionally identical except for sorcerers who'd have some sort of substantial advantage.

You say you support professional differentiation, but you do so selectively. When it's an advantage for sorcery, you argue that they should be doing it better than anyone else, and when you see an advantage another pure profession has over sorcery, you shriek "UNFAIR!" and try to 'balance' things out by making them identical.

This, along with your self-aggrandizing and asinine belittlements, would be the reason why no one takes you remotely seriously.

Your arguments do nothing more than situate you firmly at the center of attention (and you'll use any tactic possible to remain so), which is your primary goal. It's more than a little pathetic.

*waits for V's head to explode*
You can call a cupcake a mushroom all day long Jesse, but it will still be a cupcake.

So as much as I'm sure you'd want what you say to be true, repeating it again, and again, and again, without offering any supporting evidence, examples, etc, isn't going to make it true. I mean, in this thread alone people have posted saying they take me seriously, are they not people? Pick any old thread from the past 5 years in the sorcerer forums on the officials where you have disagreed with me, I bet I always had more people siding with me than you did.

You're a fanboy Jesse, you have OCD and (in addition to obsessing over me), you've got this definition in your head of what sorcery should be and you compulsively try to steer things in that direction, no matter how unpopular it is, no matter how often myself and pretty much every other sorcerer who posts on the officials say they don't like it, or they want something else. One of the reasons you probably hate me is because I'm the antithesis of your vision. I'm a fucking dwarf, who fucking bolts. You others probably don't know this, but every time a sorcerer AS spell idea comes up Jesse absolutely seethes and throws a temper tantrum against it, despite the fact that every other sorcerer wants one so we have a more diverse attack repertoire .

I also am rather amused you think I do this for want of attention, you, of all people, saying that.

[Necromancer]

You're a fanboy Jesse, you have OCD and (in addition to obsessing over me


ROFL

[Methais]

I cannot explain it, but sorcery seems to attract a certain type of player, I think, with some exceptions (Jesse) we have some of the smartest, most creative, and most analytical players.

That statement is void simply because Klaive is a sorcerer.

[Methais]

Idspispopd.

That's the no clipping code. IDDQD is god mode.

NUB!

[AestheticDeath]

Rathain, I recall taking that level 92 out with normal gear, and self spelled (using 140 of course).

I recall one cleric using a shield one time.. and some outside spells. He had over 1000 DS. A bit of overkill wouldn't you say? But this case is a bit extreme since he is so far past cap.

And since I haven't heard the argument or reasoning before, what exactly is it about the 400's and sorcerers that make it inferior?

PS: Davenshire, the Viril n' puss comments just make you look childish.

[Lyonis]

2. I have 2 titled wizards, used to have a third. 2 titled empaths, used to have a third. 1 titled rogue, 1 titled warrior, 1 titled bard, and my first character was a bard who got to 15 back when 15 was old. 1 titled ranger, almost a 2nd titled warrior. Almost a second titled rogue.

So you have 13 titled characters and one capped one. Going by the level chart on the play.net site, and using the minimum experience requirements, you have a grand total of 13,682.5 hours played over 13 years which is just about a 1000 hours played per year(plus or minus a few due to beer error). Now this isn't taking into account XXX, which is a fairly recent addition in your 13 years played, but it is also assuming you've done nothing but power hunt. But since...



I've only gotten about 50 RPAs, I must be clueless huh?

we know it was many more hours played and clueless seems a rather mild way to describe you at this point. Then you also have to consider the time you spent giving us reminders to your lack of masculinity like the "Rift Song". Rather than reinventing the wheel I'll just quote my man Stunseed...



Just pointing out how normal you try to make yourself out to, and how you don't play GS but for your XXX...Yet the overall abundance of your character sheet to inflate your e-penis makes it seem as if one of these is not true.

Yeah that. So now that you're a proven liar, as well as really stupid, we should take anything you say seriously because?

Oh and before you get all butt hurt and call me an asshole...



I won't deny that I can be a prick to people, I don't have a lot of patience, I am not politically correct, and I am not diplomatic. If someone posts something wrong I'm not going to be Paula Abdul, I'm going to be Simon, that is just who I am. You can hate Simon, you can think Simon is mean, but Simon is usually right. So you can thank Simon for not wasting your time and giving you false hope by sugarcoating things and being all politically correct with your feelings. Or you can bitch at him and say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he is just jealous of your awesome singing abilities.


You can call me Simon bitch.

Chris, who is down with Jesse like four flat tires

[AestheticDeath]

No idea who you are Lyonis, but you and Stunseed are both a bit off track on the guys experience vs time requirements. And what the hell would it matter anyways? Its like another pot vs kettle thing. You play the damn game as well, and if not this one its others right?

BTW you can cut those hour requirements in half, as its very easy to get close to 2000 exp an hour, while the site says its an average of 1000 per hour. So more like 7000 hours, over 13 years, and he readily admits he played more back in the beginning.

Averages out to maybe 1-2 hours a day playing, without XXX. "According to the chart."

[Some Rogue]

Fucking Chris.

[AestheticDeath]

Fucking Chris.

You and Jesse both?

Sorry couldn't help it.. him with his on all fours with Jesse (behind him?) comment.. I dunno Just found it very funny.

[Necromancer]

Has V's ego storm gon contagious?


Besides, I may be a ho, but even I have standards. Plus, I'd have to be the top, and I don't do bitchy bottoms.

[Lyonis]

You and Jesse both?

Sorry couldn't help it.. him with his on all fours with Jesse (behind him?) comment.. I dunno Just found it very funny.

No it's because SomeRogue's name is also Chris if I remember correctly.

I'll also help you out with the last line of my previous post. The word "down" was a reference to being friends. The "four flat tires", like on a car, was for emphasis. How you got homosexual vibes from that seems to be a personal problem of yours.

I'm also all over Nekk like white on rice in a snowstorm. And by that I mean we're fucking.

[AestheticDeath]

Jesse was where the 'gay vibe' came from. Never heard anything akin to a four flat tire comment, so I was obviously very confused.

[Some Rogue]

No it's because SomeRogue's name is also Chris if I remember correctly.


No, I am not a Chris too but there used to be enough of you fuckers in guild.



I'm also all over Nekk like white on rice in a snowstorm. And by that I mean we're fucking.

:scared:

[7Seconds]

well then, everyone done clawing, scratching a biting yet. Or do you boys need to vent more?

As for the question, why should a sorcerer have a CS closer to pure elementalists/spiritualists.

400 circle spells, CS's and TD's are balanced IG to match wizards

100 circle spells, same as above but, for clerics/empaths.

Thease balances render cs spells from both of the above circle nearly useless versus like level creatures.

Sorcery is a hybrid professing designed to splice the best of both at its core, creating spells that have a lot of both elements involved. Moving the CS of 100, and 400 circle spells closer to that of wizards/clerics is considered sane and rational by some because of the hybrid nature of the 700 circle. Sorcery isn't alien to the control of elemental/spiritual magics by its self, we obviously have access to these basic spells or magics. Wizards and Clerics both have access to the greater powers of each of their respective circles through their core spells as well as the 200/500 circles. the Expression of mastery of Elements/Spirits is viewed by us, pushing for the change, in the ability to access the spells held inside these circles.

Also, given the focused nature of W/C's they will also find it far more easy to master even these spells through lore use then Sorcery ever can... Given the suspect nature of the lore reviews, it is easy enough to say this. Sorcery even though has access to the same lores and spells clerics/wizards do in the minor magics rang will find it more difficult to achieve the same effect because of its dual nature and the competition for TP's that lore training present. I will not be able to focus heavily on elemental lores without weakening 700/100 spells, etc.

So wizards have a greater ability to pull more from their circle via the use of greater spell lists as well as more freedom to tweak their effects with lore in their field.

Clerics as the same but as it pertains to their focus.

An equal CS in regard to 100/400 circles will take Nothing away from any other profession...period.

It will however help to define the sorcery profession as what it is. So how are we out of line, and completely off scale in regard to balance when we ask to simply be able to use minor spells and magic on base, as well as wizards and clerics?

[AestheticDeath]

My question is how are the Casting strengths of a sorcerer and a wizard any different when comparing the 400s? If you mean the actual CS, then show me what seems to have gone over my head. If its because of lores? Its not that big of a deal. A sorcerer shouldn't be able to make all three circles as powerful as they can be. Just choose any one. And then still be proficient with the others.

If either a wizard or a sorcerer were to make 400's their primary sphere they can get the same CS.

The only real difference I see, is that a wizard can single in each of the three, and at cap have 101, 101, 101. And still have a serviceable CS using any sphere. I am not sure a sorcerer could do it as well, but I haven't run the numbers.

Just getting the extra 25 CS from 425 affecting all three of the wizards spheres helps a lot. A sorcerer still gets it for his 400's sphere, and half of it for the sorcerer. Is this the actual point you would be arguing? Or is it something else?

If it is, the closest thing I could see happening as a change there would be giving 1/2 the benefit of 425 to 100's, and 3/4 of it to sorcerer instead of 1/2. Assuming they have enough knowledge and competence to make an elemental spell augment their pure spiritual ones.

But I really don't see anything like that happening.

And in the end, I don't see why any sane sorcerer would want a high CS in the 400's because I don't think the spell list as a whole has ANY spell that could outshine a sorcerer attack spell.

I think its kind of odd that 'secondary' spheres even have spells that can be used for warding targets. Wizards should have some decent CS spells in the wizard sphere. They shouldn't be getting the main hunting spells from secondary spell lists.

And neither should a sorcerer. So why again are you really wanting a higher CS for the 400's?

[crb]

So you have 13 titled characters and one capped one. Going by the level chart on the play.net site, and using the minimum experience requirements, you have a grand total of 13,682.5 hours played over 13 years which is just about a 1000 hours played per year(plus or minus a few due to beer error). Now this isn't taking into account XXX, which is a fairly recent addition in your 13 years played, but it is also assuming you've done nothing but power hunt. But since...

Aethestic Death already pointed out the inconsistencies you have there, and like I said, why would I lie about this?

I haven't rolled up a new character since GS4 started, all my little ones got that 2 level bonus in the conversion as well.

Additionally, Virilneus benefited from the gimme constant 3x RPA modifier they gave to everyone premium when the game moved to the Web in 1997.

[crb]

My question is how are the Casting strengths of a sorcerer and a wizard any different when comparing the 400s? If you mean the actual CS, then show me what seems to have gone over my head. If its because of lores? Its not that big of a deal. A sorcerer shouldn't be able to make all three circles as powerful as they can be. Just choose any one. And then still be proficient with the others.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/CS

The above is mostly right, it doesn't include that for sorcerers (only) The B Secondary Circle modifier changes at 33 ranks, not 66 ranks.

So, CS = Level Bonus + Primary Circle bonus + Secondary Circle A bonus + Secondary Circle B + Stat

Wizard 400 CS:
Primary Circle Bonus

Ranks up to level = 1
Ranks 1-20 above level = 0.75
Ranks 21-60 above level = 0.5
Ranks 61-100 above level = 0.25
Ranks 101-? above level = 0.125


Secondary Circle Bonus A (900s)


Ranks up to 2/3 level = 0.33333
Ranks above 2/3 level = 0.1

Secondary Circle bonus B (500s)


Ranks up to 2/3 level = 0.33333
Ranks above 2/3 level = 0.1

Sorcerer 400 AS:
Primary Circle Bonus

Ranks up to level = 1
Ranks 1-20 above level = 0.75
Ranks 21-60 above level = 0.5
Ranks 61-100 above level = 0.25
Ranks 101-? above level = 0.125


Secondary Circle Bonus A (700s)


Ranks up to 2/3 level = 0.33333
Ranks above 2/3 level = 0.1

Secondary Circle bonus B (100s)


Ranks up to 1/3 level = 0.33333
Ranks above 1/3 level = 0.1

Notice the change in red, that is where our complaint is born.

Then for our 100 CS it is the same deal.

[crb]

Just getting the extra 25 CS from 425 affecting all three of the wizards spheres helps a lot. A sorcerer still gets it for his 400's sphere, and half of it for the sorcerer. Is this the actual point you would be arguing? Or is it something else?

50 CS for wizards, 400s. 25 cs for the 700s, 0 cs for spiritual spheres (at cap).


If it is, the closest thing I could see happening as a change there would be giving 1/2 the benefit of 425 to 100's, and 3/4 of it to sorcerer instead of 1/2. Assuming they have enough knowledge and competence to make an elemental spell augment their pure spiritual ones.

I posted this exact thing on the officials, except I said 1/3. So, for sorcerery the bonus (50) is halved (25) then cut into thirds (8) for a sorcerer casting the 100s.... this however does nothing for the 400s.



And neither should a sorcerer. So why again are you really wanting a higher CS for the 400's?

413 is a really good spell, but mostly, variety, and why not? It is a simple change, they just have to tweak the CS formula to not treat sorcerers differently.

[Celephais]

How many 100s circle ranks do you have? Because if you have 100 of them you're missing out on a total of 8 CS... I think cursing the target more than makes up for that.

So I agree it's stupid that they put the limitation on there, but it's certainly not enough to merit the issue you've made it into.

[crb]

How many 100s circle ranks do you have? Because if you have 100 of them you're missing out on a total of 8 CS... I think cursing the target more than makes up for that.

So I agree it's stupid that they put the limitation on there, but it's certainly not enough to merit the issue you've made it into.
Actually, the gap is established in ranks 33 to 66, once you reach 66 the gap doesn't get any larger, so the gap at 100 spell ranks is the same as the gap at 66 spell ranks.

Curse costs 15 mana and 3 seconds each time you use it. 8 CS costs nothing. Not the same thing.

I didn't try to make this a big issue, I posted what I thought was a very reasonable request to change this on the officials, a bunch of people wanting to keep sorcerers down came in and made it a big issue by campaigning against it, often without even understanding what we were asking for.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Crb
Honestly, rather than increase cleric armor training costs to be, you know, not half as much as every other pure, I'd rather cut all other pure's armor costs in half. Thereby helping 3 professions instead of nerfing one. Which way do you think has a better chance of being implemented?

Out of curiosity do you really believe that this round about approach wouldn't be a nerf to clerics? Either way you're talking about removing an advantage that clerics were clearly intended to have.

[crb]

Out of curiosity do you really believe that this round about approach wouldn't be a nerf to clerics? Either way you're talking about removing an advantage that clerics were clearly intended to have.
An advantage only in comparison to other professions, not that this matters, it'll never happen. Unless GMs decided to increase critter attack power, clerics wouldn't technically lose anything.

Of course, adjusting armor training costs, only removes 1 bonus, the spell hinderance bonus would remain, so they would still be in thicker armor, they just would not get it so cheaply.

[Tea & Strumpets]

a bunch of people wanting to keep sorcerers down came in and made it a big issue by campaigning against it,

LOL, you're a loon.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Crb
An advantage only in comparison to other professions, not that this matters, it'll never happen. Unless GMs decided to increase critter attack power, clerics wouldn't technically lose anything.

Just to play devils advocate.. Sorcerers and the other pures are only at a disadvantage when compared to clerics in this respect. Technically you aren't losing anything as you stand right now if your only looking at them as their singular classes rather than comparing what you have vs what others have.

[crb]

Just to play devils advocate.. Sorcerers and the other pures are only at a disadvantage when compared to clerics in this respect. Technically you aren't losing anything as you stand right now if your only looking at them as their singular classes rather than comparing what you have vs what others have.
I do not see it that way.

As I see it, GMs who design critters need to make sure clerics are not hunting gods, and so they need to be sure that attacks are dangerous/powerful enough to significantly harm a pure with a high number of spells and good spell burst maximum, that hunts in guarded, and wears heavy armor.

So, because of this, we are presently at a disadvantage in more than just a comparative sense. After all, an attack meant to significantly harm a cleric wearing chain/brig in guarded is going to do wonders to a wizard in full.

[Rathain]

I do not see it that way.

As I see it, GMs who design critters need to make sure clerics are not hunting gods, and so they need to be sure that attacks are dangerous/powerful enough to significantly harm a pure with a high number of spells and good spell burst maximum, that hunts in guarded, and wears heavy armor.

So, because of this, we are presently at a disadvantage in more than just a comparative sense. After all, an attack meant to significantly harm a cleric wearing chain/brig in guarded is going to do wonders to a wizard in full.

Your previous criticism of me was correct - you have more experience hunting a sorcerer character than I do. However, I have more experience hunting a cleric than you, and I can confirm that clerics are not hunting gods of any kind. Most clerics also do not hunt in guarded, as 312 and 317 are both junk when trying to ward something like level and not in at least forward stance and channeling.

Most clerics also do not wear brig. To date, I've also only seen two clerics wearing chain, and the both of them fumble too many crucial casts to be seen as anything but a liability, and none of them hunted in OTF. It's true that clerics have an added defense in exchange for: utility spells that do not benefit the cleric as much as others and in exchange for a limited offensive prowess.

Sorcerers have a more potent offensive arsenal, but for some reason, you choose to use 111 as your primary spell. I suppose that's your choice, but there has to be a reason why you're one of the only sorcerer players I have spoken to that has chosen this route.

What confuses me, is that you call most of the 700 spell list as novelty spells, but are rallying for usage of increased viability of MnE and MnS usage. Do you think warding with 110 or eblast is going to be any better than say, 711 or 719 ?

[Celephais]

Do clerics have as good as disabling spells as wizards/sorcs to keep them from getting attacked? This is a serious question, I don't know. I would assume that not being able to remove a limb or ewave or the like would mean that they're going to take more hits... sure they can level a room, but when they have to wait 6 seconds to make an attack that can be devestating. I guess web made things easier, but I don't know how useful that really is (and bind would require a warding... similar to limb disruption in that sense, but less of a removal of all combat prowess type effect... as bind can wear off, and most non-troll creatures won't regrow that right arm).

[TheEschaton]

Silence (210) for spell casters, 311/214 to disable movement on squares....yeah, they're pretty effective.

The only problem is keeping your major spirit CS high enough to handle like-leveled mobs.

-TheE-

[crb]

Your previous criticism of me was correct - you have more experience hunting a sorcerer character than I do. However, I have more experience hunting a cleric than you, and I can confirm that clerics are not hunting gods of any kind. Most clerics also do not hunt in guarded, as 312 and 317 are both junk when trying to ward something like level and not in at least forward stance and channeling.

Most clerics also do not wear brig. To date, I've also only seen two clerics wearing chain, and the both of them fumble too many crucial casts to be seen as anything but a liability, and none of them hunted in OTF. It's true that clerics have an added defense in exchange for: utility spells that do not benefit the cleric as much as others and in exchange for a limited offensive prowess.

Sorcerers have a more potent offensive arsenal, but for some reason, you choose to use 111 as your primary spell. I suppose that's your choice, but there has to be a reason why you're one of the only sorcerer players I have spoken to that has chosen this route.

What confuses me, is that you call most of the 700 spell list as novelty spells, but are rallying for usage of increased viability of MnE and MnS usage. Do you think warding with 110 or eblast is going to be any better than say, 711 or 719 ?

I can confirm that clerics are not hunting gods of any kind.

I specifically said they weren't as well. I merely pointed out that the attacks needed to harm them do far worse to every other pure wearing thinner armor.


Sorcerers have a more potent offensive arsenal, but for some reason, you choose to use 111 as your primary spell. I suppose that's your choice, but there has to be a reason why you're one of the only sorcerer players I have spoken to that has chosen this route.

I don't chose it because it is worse, believe me. All sorcerer core attack spells have been downtweaked numerous times, they needed some, but in my opinion the downtweaks went too far. Compounding this issue is most are not lore-modified by our core lores, meaning, unlike other pures, we have no surefire way to increase the damage of our spells. So while at low levels they may be relatively similar, by the time you reach cap they lag behind because none of your lore training is helping them.

111 is different, I get a very easily noticed and measured benefit from lore training for it, 118 as well. Which is why I use them so much.

As to why many other sorcerers don't use it, many are starting to now that they see my success (probably one of the reasons Jesse hates me, I'm attracting people away from what he thinks sorcerers should be). The others though I think hold onto tradition a little more than I do. I'm a, "whatever works" kind of person (dwarves are practical), others will consider how appropriate an attack type is to the history they've come up with their character, etc.



What confuses me, is that you call most of the 700 spell list as novelty spells, but are rallying for usage of increased viability of MnE and MnS usage. Do you think warding with 110 or eblast is going to be any better than say, 711 or 719 ?

I would never ask for significant GM resources to be used to create more novelty spell options to provide more variety during hunting. The CS formula change I'm asking for is a 5 minute change, so I feel it is worth it.

[Necromancer]

Eschaton just hit it on the nose. this entire discussion takes into account the CS formula but doesn't at all take into account the training avenues each profession has open to it. The way professions divide up their spell ranks among the secondary circles differs considerably because the content of their primary list as well as those secondary lists differ substantially. The 100s and 400s play very different roles in each profession that has access to them, and that's intended.

But, shock me shock me, V doesn't care. He just really wants an additional 8 CS at cap.

[crb]

Pish posh, I care, you cannot just arbitrarily decide X ability justifies X difficulty. Nor do I think that we get so much great use out of our other spells when compared to pure pures that the only fair thing to do is stick us with an 8 CS penalty.

[Tolwynn]

So all of this B&M is over a difference of 8 CS in a minor circle at cap?

Just, wow.

[LMingrone]

V's like one of those moms that thinks sports shouldn't have a loser anymore.

[crb]

How do you figure LMingrone? Where'd that comment come from? I guarantee you I think sports should have losers, and I think dodgeball is okay, and timeout is bullshit.

Of course I wouldn't support a sport that for no good reason gives one team say a 10 point head start. Making sure the competition is even is not the same thing as doing away with competition. Surely your pea-sized brain can grasp even that?

[crb]

So all of this B&M is over a difference of 8 CS in a minor circle at cap?

Just, wow.
You're telling me, when I posted about it originally I expected yawns from other players and a GM saying "okay fine, we'll look into it" followed a week later by an announcement that it was changed.

Instead people act like I just raped their sister.

[Necromancer]

No, V is one of those moms who thinks their kids shouldn't ever lose in sports but thinks losing is important for the other kids.

[crb]

Does it help you work through your Daddy issues to insult me there Jesse? Or do you just have nothing useful to say about any one game balance topic I supposedly am whining about?

[Axhinde]

You two need your own thread, or a sleazy hotel room.

[Necromancer]

If I didn't; I'd be in good company. And if you could read between the lines Hakwea, you'd see that I was making a criticism about your opinions on game balance.

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not useful. Please get a grip. No really, you need it.

[Necromancer]

Do hotel rooms come in any other kind?

[Axhinde]

Do hotel rooms come in any other kind?

Not the ones I can afford.

[Numbers]

This thread really sucks now.

[Davenshire]

From the officials:

Major Elemental Circle folder post #497


This topic has come up before and no GM has ever given a damn, I don't expect them to start now, but since some wizards are so vehement about nerfing my profession I thought I would do my best to return the favor.

Why is it that cone of lightning is pretty much the only multi-target attack spell in the game that doesn't include MoC in its formula?

...blablablablabla

Every time someone brings this up wizards cry foul and do all they can to shoot the messenger and support their crutch, and I fully expect them to do the same here, but since they're already crapping on my profession I don't really much care.




Your right Viriln' puss all your crying about is just one thing 8 CS.

No, you are so pathetic not only do you cry about what you don't have and want, but you cry about what others have, and then YOU cluster it into "everyone vs. sorcerers." And it isn't, it is just people sick of your "make everyone the same, and me just a bit more powerful."

The above was just a "small clip." There is plenty of you on the forums, I am surprised sorcerers are even viable with all the handicaps they get. You must be an amazing player yourself being able to cope with all these limitations and still have made it to where you are today. My hat comes off for you.

518.
Clerics get heavier armor, 317, blablabla..
My Minor warding spells are weaker...
Empathic Dispell doesn't work on bard spells.....

the list goes on and on and on and on.

You act like you are above all the petty meandering, your irrefutable logic can not be questioned because you think TP's = game balance. and it doesn't by itself. All the woes of gemstone can be remedied by the few to do's that you keep harping on to make you happy.

And my very favorite part of your post, that really shines through of what kind of cry ass mentality you have:


but since some wizards are so vehement about nerfing my profession I thought I would do my best to return the favor.

Don't act so high and mighty, when it all comes down to it you're just a cry ass mudd slinger artist at heart.

crying foul over and over and over.

[AestheticDeath]

HMM, I had never noticed that since I don't really rely on my secondary spheres while hunting.

My minor elemental and minor spiritual CS calculations are way off though.

99 sorc
128 sorc - 514 CS
74 elem - 486 CS (should have 500 CS)
51 spirit - 409 CS (should have 428 CS)

That is even more than 8 CS that I am 'missing'. And for no reason. Why should a sorcerer have a lower CS in those spheres than another profession?

[crb]

From the officials:

Major Elemental Circle folder post #497






Your right Viriln' puss all your crying about is just one thing 8 CS.

No, you are so pathetic not only do you cry about what you don't have and want, but you cry about what others have, and then YOU cluster it into "everyone vs. sorcerers." And it isn't, it is just people sick of your "make everyone the same, and me just a bit more powerful."

The above was just a "small clip." There is plenty of you on the forums, I am surprised sorcerers are even viable with all the handicaps they get. You must be an amazing player yourself being able to cope with all these limitations and still have made it to where you are today. My hat comes off for you.

518.
Clerics get heavier armor, 317, blablabla..
My Minor warding spells are weaker...
Empathic Dispell doesn't work on bard spells.....

the list goes on and on and on and on.

You act like you are above all the petty meandering, your irrefutable logic can not be questioned because you think TP's = game balance. and it doesn't by itself. All the woes of gemstone can be remedied by the few to do's that you keep harping on to make you happy.

And my very favorite part of your post, that really shines through of what kind of cry ass mentality you have:



Don't act so high and mighty, when it all comes down to it you're just a cry ass mudd slinger artist at heart.

crying foul over and over and over.
:violin:

Please, tell me how you really feel.

[Fallen]

Empaths DO need some tweaking now that they aren't losing that other circle and are still going to be called "Hybrids"

[Methais]

:violin:

Please, tell me how you really feel.

This is how I really feel:

That violin thing in every other post of yours sucks fat greasy buckets of ass juice garnished with 3 tablespoons of 4 week old Emislity vagina residue.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

This is how I really feel:

That violin thing in every other post of yours sucks fat greasy buckets of ass juice garnished with 3 tablespoons of 4 week old Emislity vagina residue.
Okay I just threw up in my mouth a little. I would do the clapping emote but I'm too busy puking now :( You never fail, Methais.

[875000]

Okay I just threw up in my mouth a little. I would do the clapping emote but I'm too busy puking now :( You never fail, Methais.

http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-31.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[7Seconds]

well then........

If thats not a thread killer, I'm not sure what is.

[Sean of the Thread]

This is how I really feel:

That violin thing in every other post of yours sucks fat greasy buckets of ass juice garnished with 3 tablespoons of 4 week old Emislity vagina residue.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/motivator242260.jpg

[Necromancer]

Straight people *shakes head and walks away*

[7Seconds]

Bump

So everyone may have the chance to feel the urge to puke.

[Drew]

Wouldn't it be great if Virilneus went wherever Drumpy went?


Actually I would take Drumpy back, while annoying and always demanding upgrades to his profession and race (amusingly he always screamed about how sorcs were way more powerful than clerics and it just wasn't fair) at least Drumpy did some positive research (like the trading info).

[Necromancer]

But then who would remind us all how newbish we are and what a short amount of time we've been playing?

Who will remind us how great he is?!?

[StrayRogue]

Thank God his opinion doesn't matter, and I don't even play the game anymore. It's times like this that the players should be grateful towards the GM's for being so...narrow-minded, if you will.

[Fallen]

Wouldn't it be great if Virilneus went wherever Drumpy went?


Actually I would take Drumpy back, while annoying and always demanding upgrades to his profession and race (amusingly he always screamed about how sorcs were way more powerful than clerics and it just wasn't fair) at least Drumpy did some positive research (like the trading info).

V hosts the main foraging and alchemy sites.

[Necromancer]

not exactly research, and they could easily be hosted elsewhere.

Though he is finally being a productive member of society.

[Fallen]

It looked like some effort went into coding both sites.

[crb]

So you only matter if you figure out a formula?

Well.. hmm... the formula for how much lore affects the DF of bolt spells was done partially by me (I was the provider of the data, which is why if you read the Krakiipedia page on bolt spells you'll see how it has only been confirmed for Fire Spirit).

Then I was also the one who co-figured out the GS3 spellburst formula, Chuckaar and I worked on it the morning after OTF was released.

I provided a lot of research for a GS4 formula was well, before Gibreficul kinda took the reigns and ran with it.

What me to go on? The 708 animation effect was my idea. Ensorcellment (though it never got implemented). Empathic Assault is nearly identical to a spell idea called Psychic bolt I proposed for sorcerers (could be a coincidence). Before forums existed I sent in a proposal for warrior guild sheaths to feedback, 6 months later they were released, could be a coincidence as well. hate it or like it, the current experience system of a level cap but not a skill cap, you can thank me (or blame me) for that more than any other player. I was also the first person to catalogue all rift gems. I provided the first maps ever of Ta'illistim, Maaghara's tower, the Sheruvian Monastery, and parts of Teras (McKyren's Folly & the fire mage door expansion), and some other Ta'illistim hunting areas (slushes, black forest), and Bonespeare.

Of couse, probably dozens of bug reports. Then of course the websites I manage now as Evarin said, and of course how long did Greminty's foraging site exist? And how long has mine? And how many more features do I have and placements marked? Sure, I don't do the marking, but I provided all the framework necessary to allow people to do it easily and quickly.

So ya, you're probably right, I haven't contributed anything to the game community.

[StrayRogue]

The game survived long before gremnities website, or your ripoff copy of it. Plus your website provided nothing that wasn't on numerous other's except for out of date information.

No, all you've contributed to the community is to make sorcerer's look like the whiney bitches that they've been classified as for the last 10 years.

[Methais]

So you only matter if you figure out a formula?

Well.. hmm... the formula for how much lore affects the DF of bolt spells was done partially by me (I was the provider of the data, which is why if you read the Krakiipedia page on bolt spells you'll see how it has only been confirmed for Fire Spirit).

Then I was also the one who co-figured out the GS3 spellburst formula, Chuckaar and I worked on it the morning after OTF was released.

I provided a lot of research for a GS4 formula was well, before Gibreficul kinda took the reigns and ran with it.

What me to go on? The 708 animation effect was my idea. Ensorcellment (though it never got implemented). Empathic Assault is nearly identical to a spell idea called Psychic bolt I proposed for sorcerers (could be a coincidence). Before forums existed I sent in a proposal for warrior guild sheaths to feedback, 6 months later they were released, could be a coincidence as well. hate it or like it, the current experience system of a level cap but not a skill cap, you can thank me (or blame me) for that more than any other player. I was also the first person to catalogue all rift gems. I provided the first maps ever of Ta'illistim, Maaghara's tower, the Sheruvian Monastery, and parts of Teras (McKyren's Folly & the fire mage door expansion), and some other Ta'illistim hunting areas (slushes, black forest), and Bonespeare.

Of couse, probably dozens of bug reports. Then of course the websites I manage now as Evarin said, and of course how long did Greminty's foraging site exist? And how long has mine? And how many more features do I have and placements marked? Sure, I don't do the marking, but I provided all the framework necessary to allow people to do it easily and quickly.

So ya, you're probably right, I haven't contributed anything to the game community.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/business.jpg

[7Seconds]

HOLY HELL Methais where do you find all of thease pictures! ROFLMAO

[Fallen]

I got bit by a fucking GP yesterday. I hate those things.

[Methais]

HOLY HELL Methais where do you find all of thease pictures! ROFLMAO

1. http://image.google.com
2. SERIOUS BUSINESS
3. ????
4. Profit.

[Warriorbird]

Virilneus demonstrates for Sorcerors to stop us from keeping them down.

http://www.fairmounttemple.org/h-pesach3.gif

[crb]

The game survived long before gremnities website, or your ripoff copy of it. Plus your website provided nothing that wasn't on numerous other's except for out of date information.

No, all you've contributed to the community is to make sorcerer's look like the whiney bitches that they've been classified as for the last 10 years.
:violin:

[Warriorbird]

Man. Somebody summed themselves up without knowing it.

[Methais]

:violin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/Worf_notagain.gif

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I got bit by a fucking GP yesterday. I hate those things.

GP = Giant Panda?

[Fallen]

Would be a bit harder to type were that the case. Guinea Pig. Fucker bit through 2 layers of gloves, didn't puncture them, but sure did my skin.

[7Seconds]

that's because GP's are evil and from the devil... I've only ever held one, two or three times in my life, every one of them though resulted in blood lose.

[Drew]

Before forums existed I sent in a proposal for warrior guild sheaths to feedback, 6 months later they were released, could be a coincidence as well.


There were forums 6 months before WG sheaths were released.

[Stanley Burrell]

I believe that there is a picture of guinea pig on a leash thirteen posts back. Thank you.