Hitler

[Xcalibur]

Ben seems to praise him, just wanted to know your opinion about the so called devil incarnation, anti-christ or just that egomaniac guy.

[Ben]

Click HAIL HITLER if you think Xcalibur should visit a library.

[Xcalibur]

Or if you want Ben to realize he worships a loser.

hehe damn Ben

[Ben]

I don't "worship" Hitler. I agree with many of his ideals but not all of them, that doesn't mean I am going to sit back while you trash talk one of the greatest leaders of all time while you know nothing about him and are basing it all on a high school education.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I've read a few books about Hitler, I don't idolize him in anyway, but he was a very smart man. He manipulated an entire country, nearly took over the world, and were it not for his overambitious nature, probably would have.

He ranks up there. Bill Gates, is the Hitler of the corporate world, if you want an analogy.

[Parkbandit]

He simply took advantage of the situation that WWI left Germany in and brainwashed all the people who were thinking about better times. I wouldn't consider him a great leader.

If we take a look at his military record and decisions.. I would say he was almost an idiot.

If we take a look at what he did to the Jews and anyone resisting him... I would say he was someone without conscious and truly a disturbed maniac.

[Myshel]

I posted this on the same/sex thread before I saw this one so I'm cutting and pasting.

My thoughts on Hitler are a bit simpler. He was a heartless, compassionless, opportunist. He used propaganda to decimate the richest people in Europe to fund his war machine. It was a monetary decision, not based on hate but based on peoples jealousy of a wealthy ethnic group with a long history of conflict.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
He simply took advantage of the situation that WWI left Germany in and brainwashed all the people who were thinking about better times. I wouldn't consider him a great leader.

I'd say brainwashing a country does equate to a great leader. He was renowned, even today, for his speeches. For a kid who grew up on a farm in the boonies, to being an "artist", then decorated several times in WWI for bravery on the front lines, to joining the Nazi's and ultimatedly dictator? I'd say thats pretty formidible odds to overcome.

I don't question the fact he was racist and heartless, personally people like that make me sick. But he was powerful, and had to have some qualities that enabled him to lead Germany. No average Joe would have/could have done what he did, right or wrong.

[Myshel]

I don't think there is a question of his intellect, he was a charismatic, brilliant, evil egomaniac.

edited because I forgot a key word.

[Edited on 12-5-2003 by Myshel]

[Jolena]

Hitler was a genious in it's simplest form. He had charisma, intelligence, pride, a lust for power and a vision. However sick and dimented I feel his views were I have to admit he was a very brilliant man. Thank the Lord he didn't succeed completely with his plans for our world. I have no respect for the manner he went about achieving his vision or his vision in general but I can't say he was an idiot because it's very obvious that's one of the few things he was not.

I believe Ben made a post in another thread regarding this subject and mentioned that most people don't know that Hitler was a vegetarian and a animal rights activist.. to this I can only chuckle sadly because despite what truth may lie in that statement he slaughtered thousands of people because they didn't fit into his vision of what the world should be. He gives a fuck for animal's rights and doesn't eat meat? Yay..go Hitler. THAT makes up for it all.

[Chelle]

I've watched many documentaries on Hitler's life and I find that he was anything but an idiot. He had a vision an idea that was genius but simply and horribly went about doing it the wrong way.

My grandmother, a German grew up in Berlin under Hitlers rule. She has many interesting stories, some that I can't even pry out of her because she wants to forget or maybe she is ashamed and think I will look down on her. But I don't see why because her family helped a lot of the jews excape which could've very easily gotten her and her family killed. My grandma may have been wearing a uniform with a swastika on it, but that doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to.

That's what irritates me most. People think that all Germans are nazi's and will lable us such. Hardly any of the people who worked for Hitler wanted to at all. Most of them thought he was a madman, but you had to do what you were told or you were killed too. That was the way of life for them. In the beginning his ideas were good ideas to them. They didn't know he was going to try to kill off an entire race until he was doing it.

It's just that even after all these years it seems my Grandmother is afraid to talk about Hitler as if he may be hiding in her closet and gonna get her if she talks. The man made an impression that one cannot forget very easily. I don't think an idiot is capable of making such an impression on someone like he has to my grandmother. No, the power he had, the fear he instilled into people, at that time can't really be brushed off lightly as simpleminded idiocy.

[Edited on 12-5-2003 by Chelle]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Chelle
People think that all Germans are nazi's and will lable us such.

I have an intensely German name, but no one's ever called me a Nazi (in a non-ribbing manner).

I like how everyone thinks Hitler was a genius except for the blatant racism and genocide. Hitler knew what happened after genocide, because he witnessed (more or less) the Armenian Genocide of WW1. He knew that the world (especially self-righteous Anglo-Americans) didn't take kindly to it then. If he was so smart, why would he go through with mass torture that would earn him global censure?

He was a genius in certain fields. And an idiot in others. Like most people.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I like how everyone thinks Hitler was a genius except for the blatant racism and genocide. Hitler knew what happened after genocide, because he witnessed (more or less) the Armenian Genocide of WW1. He knew that the world (especially self-righteous Anglo-Americans) didn't take kindly to it then. If he was so smart, why would he go through with mass torture that would earn him global censure?

He was a genius in certain fields. And an idiot in others. Like most people.

Well he obviously didn't think he was going to lose the war, and we didn't find out about the amount of damage he did to the Jews until after the war when we were in Germany.. Had he won, it really owuldn't have mattered what we thought of what they did since 1) We wouldn't know the extent of his genocide 2) What could we do besides complain after the fact when he has control of Europe?

-- My views on Hitler, obviously as everyone else said he was a genius.. He just was crazy as hell and too paranoid.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Well he obviously didn't think he was going to lose the war, and we didn't find out about the amount of damage he did to the Jews until after the war when we were in Germany..

Yeah, that's true.


Originally posted by Hulkein
What could we do besides complain after the fact when he has control of Europe?


Bombs. The best use for an air force that I've ever seen would be that situation. It's hard to say what would really happen if all the other European nations fell. I'm pretty sure at least two other continents would fall into chaos. But between us and Russia (oh fine, and Anzac), I'm pretty sure we could still beat the Axis.

[Jolena]

Well for once in my life I think I agree with Hulkein. Hitler was indeed a genious but he was insane. One doesn't discredit the other unforunately.

Hes just another classic example of the very line between good and evil.

[Lord Deprav]

He's dead. His good ideas are out dated. His bad ideas (towards humans) were wrong. He was a smart man. But he was a very wrong man too. Killing people in order to attempt to erase a population is horrid. You cannot idiolize anything about that man. You can accept that he had ideas, but used them only to hurt.

Deprav

[GSLeloo]

In Holocaust studies we have just begun to go into Germany so I will add my little opinion...

Hitler was smart, yes. He was also bred into his hate due to a lot of anti-semitic propaganda spreading around Germany at the time (In Russia Czar Nicholas II had a priest create a conspiracy that the Jews were trying to take over the world. The book it was published in was spread all over the world and if anyone wants the name of it, I will go upstairs and get my backpack)

He was also a hypocrit. He wanted a master race but he could truly not fit into himself. He would have been one of the first people taken off to the camps because he was not the supreme race. Finally... he was a disgusting human being that should have had his limbs torn off slowly and kept awake throughout the entire thing. Blindly hating a race for nothing more than them being a certain race is ridiculous and killing millions of men, women, and children is worse. Hitler was scum.

"The Nazis were many things... original was not one of them"

(a quote we had to write on our front page)

[Ben]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
He was also a hypocrit. He wanted a master race but he could truly not fit into himself.

How does that make him a hypocrit? Believing in something you aren't a part of doesn't make you a hypocrit.

[GSLeloo]

Believing that having blue eyes and blond hair made you part of the supreme race when Hitler had brown eyes and brown hair. And then killing those who had the same traits as him.. he was a complete hypocrit.

[Ben]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Blindly hating a race for nothing more than them being a certain race is ridiculous and killing millions of men, women, and children is worse.


Do you know whats going on in Iraq now? So everyone involved in the military is scum? Do you know how many people communism has killed? Yet it's cool to wear hammer and sickle/che shirts and listen to rage against the machine. Know why its accepted? Because communism is a jewish ideal, Because of jews brainwashing america with t.v/movies/music and SCHOOL. Why would you be allowed to wear a hammer and sickle to your school and not a swastika? Because Hitler tried to off the "people" who control this country these days? Where are the documents where Hitler declares war on the jews and tells his officers to execute them? They do not exist! All the sympathy video footage and pictures you've seen are FAKE. Graves dug up. Ovens? Cremation furnaces in the morgue for disposing of diseased corpses, and now they have proof than less than 4 million jews died in camps. Most laughable are the MILLIONS of holocaust survivors. How many jews were in these camps? 100Million? No, but thats the number they'd need for all these "survivors" Please, this entire thread is a joke and I won't be posting in it anymore.

[GSTamral]

I have to disagree that Hitler was a smart man. Hitler was an extremely charismatic man, and he appealed to the ideals of many of his citizens. Hitler was merely the catalyst. At the time in Europe, there was a high degree of tension between those of Jewish and those of Catholic Faith, threads of as far back as the crusades that had never died.

Good things accomplished under Hitler

1) The first modern concepts of socialized welfare without full government controls

2) adoption of the first modern economic liquidity trap, exercised nearly to perfection to bring the economy out of the dumps

3) The first push in Europe towards socializing the education process, especially those services of higher education.

4) revitalization of manufacturing with worker friendly labor controls.

5) the birth of Industrial Engineering


Bad things under Hitler

1) ruthless expansionism at the expense of everyone else

2) Extreme Racism, to the point of driving political policy about it.

3) Willingness to torture, rape, and kill others based on religious beliefs.



Now, it is important to see some of these things for what they were. Most of what Hitler did that was good had nothing to do with his genius. We are talking about an uneducated man who could not even advance himself in the german army. Most of his policy was shaped by Goebels, the propaganda minister for the Nazi party. Hitler was the ideal man for the party, which sought to expand economically as well as politically, because his charismatic drive was enough to rally the people around a different cause (the hatred of jews) to bring them together in support of something.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Believing that having blue eyes and blond hair made you part of the supreme race when Hitler had brown eyes and brown hair. And then killing those who had the same traits as him.. he was a complete hypocrit.

Bingo.

I was going to say unless he killed himself..which he did in the end...but only because he lost the war.

[Xcalibur]

Ben's point of view is REALLY interesting... History is written by victors, we all agree on that.

It's true that now communism is welcomed, and that shouldn't be allowed (Stalin was worse than Hitler)

[Weedmage Princess]

Ben...I'll ask just because I'll admit, I haven't studied this much since I was in college a few years back..and I've forgotten a good portion of it.

Where did you get that information? I mean, you're saying it's been proven the numbers of Jewish people killed under Nazi rule is exaggerated, and that the true number is far less. What fact do you have to support this? I'm curious.

[GSTamral]

Ben, Jewish people don't control America. I think judging a person by religious faith is the type of dangerous thing that leads to wars, and that leads to terrorism, and I in no way support the kind of racist statements you appear to be making.

I will however agree that our blind support of Israel has led us into a lot of trouble internationally, and given their actions of late, we should long have pulled the plug from our support of Sharon, who is a war looking for a place and time to happen, and who also sits on a bevvy of terrorist watch lists (he IS a terrorist). What he is doing to Palestine is the root cause of most of the hatred towards America.

If someone drives a tank into my town, uproots me from my home, takes away my ability to work, and puts someone else of their choosing on my land, and protects it with a gun, then what exactly do they expect me to do?

What is hysterical is that he continues to do this more and more, and then blames someone else when people get driven into fanaticism. They are in a vicious cycle that will not end until they pull back to 1948 borders, and make good on their deal to PAY palestine for the land that they were granted, as was doctrined in the settlement the US and Great Britain gave them in the creation.

but while Sharon may be just as bad as Saddam, that doesnt mean we should judge every jewish person alive as being some sort of evil control freak.

Last I checked, people in the position of Pope have, in the past, ordered inquisitions upon anyone who said the Earth wasnt the center of the Solar system. Does that mean all Christian people are ignorant fools? No.

Any person who treats people based on religion is a fool. Those who, will, on a preconceived notion label another with hatred, are the highest element of stupidity remaning in society, and present the greatest danger to the future of mankind.

[Hulkein]

Please Tamral, that fake 'shouldn't exist' palestinian 'state' is more at fault then Israel. Israel should have that land because 1) It used to be theirs, 2) They CAN take it, and since they're constantly under attack by those scumbag terrorist, they have every right to take it all, in my opinion.

[Edited on 12-6-2003 by Hulkein]

[GSLeloo]

Jewish people have horns too... we have these worksheets of Jewish myths and shit that's been said about them. They killed christ, they want to take over the world, they have horns, they're all rich... Looks like Ben only likes the stereotypes and myths.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by GSTamral
I think judging a person by religious faith is the type of dangerous thing that leads to wars, and that leads to terrorism, and I in no way support the kind of racist statements you appear to be making.


Heh, you don't know Ben do you? He's all about wars, terrorism, etc. And he's not trying to make racist statements...Ben is a straight up, flat out racist. He'll tell you himself...he even wears the same wifebeater repeatedly...the mark of his type.

[GSTamral]

Hulkein, it used to be theirs????

They left that land of their own free will HUNDREDS of years before they were given the land back. That land was the country of Palestine until 1948. In 1948, the US and GB went into Palestine, forced Palestinians from their land, and gave it to the Jewish people.

Israel has, since then, moved tanks into land that was NOT given to them, and created new settlements. That is like the US moving tanks into Canada, killing off any of their citizens that resist, and then forcibly taking away the land. ACTIONS LIKE THAT ARE THE CAUSE OF TERRORISM.

It was bad enough for the Palestinian people to have to deal with Israel existing and taking away from them, but Israel has, on no less than 9 different occasions, expanded by force, and once into a nuetral country, Jordan.

Jewish radicals are just as dangerous as Muslim radicals in the area, and present an equal if not larger threat to peace.

[GSLeloo]

I see a difference between Israel and the Jews killed in the Holocaust.. I think Israel is pretty disgusting for the most part. That whole area of the world is pretty disgusting. The Jews in the Holocaust were just victims.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess

Originally posted by GSTamral
I think judging a person by religious faith is the type of dangerous thing that leads to wars, and that leads to terrorism, and I in no way support the kind of racist statements you appear to be making.


Heh, you don't know Ben do you? He's all about wars, terrorism, etc. And he's not trying to make racist statements...Ben is a straight up, flat out racist. He'll tell you himself...he even wears the same wifebeater repeatedly...the mark of his type.

Terrorism? nah, I don't think so... I knew a lot of people like him... and you'd be surprised.. I almost even thought about becomng that.

By philosophing a bit, they just got a dream like Americains had when they wanted freedom from England, as... you get the idea.

In the eyes of native americains, Washington and compagny are worse than Hitler.. it's just a matter of perception.

[Weedmage Princess]

Ahh I just see where Ben said he won't be posting in this topic anymore. Guess I won't ever find out where he got his ideas from...heh.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Terrorism? nah, I don't think so...

In the eyes of native americains, Washington and compagny are worse than Hitler.. it's just a matter of perception.

Hmm. I guess we have different views of terrorism, then. Because I'd equate what happened to Native Americans as terrorism..of sorts. War in itself...is terrorism for the most part...if you want to get technical.

[GSTamral]

If Ben truly is a racist and hates everything not white and not Christian, I hope he doesnt drive a car with a VHOC engine. Those were developed by Japanese people.

I hope he never uses an airplane, or the telephone. The modern avaition design (non propellor) is based on the work of Einstein, who was Jewish, and my Uncle, Narendra Karmarkar is the source of all complex linear routing technology, which has been used by all phone companies since 1985.

I also hope he doesn't wear any clothes made outside the USA. The majority of workers in India, China, Bangladesh, Chile, and Malaysia are not Christian.

He also better not be using a processor any faster than a P2. All of the reduced laminate design and microproduction techniques used to make them was developed in Singapore.

Homogenous cultures never prosper. Diversity is required to succeed. And while it might be news to some, a world of nothing but white christians would not be as adaptable and prepared to survive as a well mixed variety of people.

Not to mention, I can't even remember the last white heavyweight boxing champ. Nor a white champion of vale tudo.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Where did you get that information? I mean, you're saying it's been proven the numbers of Jewish people killed under Nazi rule is exaggerated, and that the true number is far less. What fact do you have to support this? I'm curious.


Here I am looking up facts until I read this moronic post.


Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
he even wears the same wifebeater repeatedly...the mark of his type.

Frankly I can't believe a moderator posted that, I try to keep my politics off this messageboard but people provoke me to post then revert to insults. I've had enough of your little online soap opera and hopefully you grow up soon. I'm leaving this messageboard and unlike the other people who say that I won't be back so don't bother replying.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Ben
Frankly I can't believe a moderator posted that, I try to keep my politics off this messageboard but people provoke me to post then revert to insults. I've had enough of your little online soap opera and hopefully you grow up soon. I'm leaving this messageboard and unlike the other people who say that I won't be back so don't bother replying.

This coming from the same person who said someone's dog was afraid she'd eat them because she's Asian. This coming from someone who just...LAST WEEK made a comment on Thanksgiving Day about being the day the White Man killed all "Red Savages" ...I made a crack about you wearing a wifebeater and you're going to cry about it?

It's no secret I can't stand you....but I even gave you more credit than that to be someone who can dish it out but not take it. And you call me immature? Heh.

Oh well, if you're going to pout, take your ball and go home then that's your business. I'm sure others will try to talk you into changing your mind...but I won't.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
They killed christ, they want to take over the world, they have horns, they're all rich... Looks like Ben only likes the stereotypes and myths.

They did kill Christ. Just watch J.C. Superstar. :D

On the other hand, they were Christ. Just watch J.C. Superstar. :thumbsup:

I want to point out that Suppa Hobbit Mage and Ben left within 12 hours of each other. Coincidence? Yes.

[Hulkein]

I doubt they're the same.

[GSLeloo]

I didn't have the topic of they killed Christ and we don't see the presentations until Monday... I had that they were plotting to take over the world.

[Latrinsorm]

I bet they try to pawn it off on the Romans. Like the Romans would do anything wrong. Psh.

But you have class monday? Man. I'm done with school for this semester. And I might pull a Wezas and just wash my hands of college. I still get to live forever, right?

[GSLeloo]

I am still in High School, of course I have class Monday.

[Ravenstorm]

Sort of off topic but there's an interesting article on Gibson's Christ movie.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/130/story_13051_1.html

As most people have probably heard, there's a lot of controversy about the anti-semitic message supposedly portrayed in it. The article raises some interesting points.

Raven


edited to add another link that has some good info on the subject.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_jesu.htm

[Edited on 12-6-2003 by Ravenstorm]

[Chelle]

Suppa Hobbit Mage and Ben are different people. In the picture Post Suppa Hobbit Mage posted his pic and he doesn't look like Ben.

I really wish people wouldn't leave because someone has a difference of opinion.

While I have no documented proof on the subject the closest thing I have is someone who was actually there. My Grandmother also claims it wasn't even near 3m the jews that were killed or even captured. No, I don't think she stood there and counted each one but she knows enough to know that todays number is highly exaggerated. Thing is, it doesn't matter because just one is too many. I am just proud my grandmothers family helped some excape.

[Ravenstorm]

This looks to be an interesting and informative response to the revisionism some people try spout in regards to the Holocaust.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/education/revision/

Note number 3 specifically as it explains how the number of 6 million was arrived at. Of course, you should then do some further research and look for confirmation of what it says. The best way to learn what is really true is to not research things yourself.

Lets not though forget though that Jews were only one of the many groups who were rounded up for imprisonment and execution.

Raven

[longshot]

Ben, I hope you don't leave. I can't say I agree with anything that you have to say, but this forum is like the only place where I'll ever really come into contact with someone who believes what you do.

One of the funniest moments I had in Japan was because of you. Japanese people love to wear clothing with English writing on it. I was at a club, when I saw on the back of a T-shit a symbol that I recognized from somewhere.

The symbol was from the law enforcement page that you linked up about tattoos. I would have never known what it meant unless you posted a link to that page. On close inspection of this Japanese guy's shirt, it said in Gaelic lettering, "White Pride World Wide" in big lettering across the front. I laughed my ass off for a solid 10 minutes at this poor Japanese guy wearing this shirt. The poor bastard had no idea what it meant!

Not everyone will feel how I feel... I think you understand why though.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Chelle
I've watched many documentaries on Hitler's life and I find that he was anything but an idiot. He had a vision an idea that was genius but simply and horribly went about doing it the wrong way.

Opening up WWII on two fronts has been considered one of the biggest military blunders of all time... and thus the 'idiot' title in my book.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by BenFrankly I can't believe a moderator posted that, I try to keep my politics off this messageboard but people provoke me to post then revert to insults. I've had enough of your little online soap opera and hopefully you grow up soon. I'm leaving this messageboard and unlike the other people who say that I won't be back so don't bother replying.

I'll reply anyway.

I never took you as much of a wuss Ben... you seemed to have much thicker skin than this post would portray you to have. Nut up already.

I do hope you reconsider.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Chelle
I've watched many documentaries on Hitler's life and I find that he was anything but an idiot. He had a vision an idea that was genius but simply and horribly went about doing it the wrong way.

Opening up WWII on two fronts has been considered one of the biggest military blunders of all time... and thus the 'idiot' title in my book.

In no way he could had won the war in the short run, even if Russia/barbarossa (which he would had attack eventually according to mein kempf) was delayed.

Some historians just pretend there was ONE war, 1914-1945, which germany lost.

[StrayRogue]

Very smart man, alot of good (and very bad) ideas. I am sure that history and alot of how history has been recorded has made him more of a monster than he was. He was not the first or last person to try a genocide.

[StrayRogue]

His biggest mistake was thinking he could take on Russia on their home turf. Had he taken Stalingrad....I doubt many of us would be here today.

[GSLeloo]

Didn't he try to take Russia in the middle of their winter? That right there is screaming stupidity.

[StrayRogue]

Yep, pretty much. He underestimated the cold and its effects. The Russians however was as ill-prepared. One tactic was to only give weapons to the front line. Those behind them were unarmed and expected to scavange guns and ammunition of the first line who were usually gunned down.

[Caramia]

Hitler killed and had people under him kill because it either threatened revelations about his own life, which he was ashamed of, or because his childlike hatred manifested into a psychosocial mental illness. He might have been brilliant intellectually, but he was also a coward.

[Xcalibur]

I'll repeat that Hitler did no mistake with barbarossa/russia.

If he didn't attacked them, he was to give half (or close) his eastern and north eastern territories he gained by invasion.

USA's influence were very tense on russia, with the bail-lending program and if Hitler didn't attacked first, it was obvious Stalin would had do so. And wwII was ALL about preemptive attack (France and Polland, anyone?

[Testosterone]

While Hitler may have been cruel I also don't believe in the premeditated killing of millions of jews.

This is a joke. There was no mass conspiracy to kill the jews. There were no gas chambers. Evidence of that is the contrary. Analasys of the gas chambers by a leading specialist who solely worked for the government, Frederick Leuchter concluded that NO traces of cyanide (Zyklon B) were found at any of the Gas chambers in Auchwitz. And likewise in Birkenau and Lublin.

The thug killing of Jews in the eastern front by einsatzgruppen units is probably. They were a bunch of sociopathic thugs who really had no qualms with shooting civillians en masse.

I also believe that Jews living in Germany and parts of the Reich were subject to slave labor. I also believe lots of jews were punished solely for being jewish.

I do not believe that there were camps established for sole murder of the jews.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Testosterone
While Hitler may have been cruel I also don't believe in the premeditated killing of millions of jews.

This is a joke. There was no mass conspiracy to kill the jews. There were no gas chambers. Evidence of that is the contrary. Analasys of the gas chambers by a leading specialist who solely worked for the government, Frederick Leuchter concluded that NO traces of cyanide (Zyklon B) were found at any of the Gas chambers in Auchwitz. And likewise in Birkenau and Lublin.

The thug killing of Jews in the eastern front by einsatzgruppen units is probably. They were a bunch of sociopathic thugs who really had no qualms with shooting civillians en masse.

I also believe that Jews living in Germany and parts of the Reich were subject to slave labor. I also believe lots of jews were punished solely for being jewish.

I do not believe that there were camps established for sole murder of the jews.

Quit trying to use Leuchter as an expert witness, his testimony has been debunked.

And no one said there was NO cyanide found at all, what he tried to say was that the traces were small enough to be explained as similar to being used in delousing rooms for clothes.

Of course they left out that these buildings were at this point open to the elements for extended periods and isnt it shocking that wind and rain might dissipate cyanide levels over the years.

Do us all a favor and bring another expert here as Leuchter has a laughable level of credibility at this point after his attempt to pass himself off as an expert in a field he had not even a single degree in.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
I'll repeat that Hitler did no mistake with barbarossa/russia.

If he didn't attacked them, he was to give half (or close) his eastern and north eastern territories he gained by invasion.

USA's influence were very tense on russia, with the bail-lending program and if Hitler didn't attacked first, it was obvious Stalin would had do so. And wwII was ALL about preemptive attack (France and Polland, anyone?

Erm, total BS. With Russia in his pocket, he could have marched across Asia and linked with Japan. By then, the US invasion would not have stopped his development of smart bombs, ie, rockets with nuclear technology. That would have won the war.

[Hulkein]

How would he have gotten Russia 'in his pocket'?

[StrayRogue]

If he had taken Stalingrad. The country would have folded after that key victory.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
If he had taken Stalingrad. The country would have folded after that key victory.

Didn't he try? (Stalingrad = Moscow, right?)

[Skirmisher]

Read a book I mentioned in another thread "Stalingrad" by Antony Beever.

Russia suffered incredibly during the war, both from Germany's attack and its own leaders indifference but the truly astonishing thing to me, and thankfully to Hitler as well, was the industrialand troop strength that russia was able to muster.

Hitler thought Russia was about out of men more than once only to be attacked by armies numbering greater than those that Germany had thought they had in totallity before attacking.

Hitler...I don't think he was stupid, but he was clearly insane and his madness did cloud his judgement especially later on in the war and we should all be gratefull for that.

[Xcalibur]

All speculations

Stalins sent MILLION and MILLION of soldiers, Hitler COULD not win against russia in ANY way possible BESIDE

Turn of events, USA stop the "bail-lend" (sending war machines to russia).

Why Hitler didn't invade England? cause of russia, why Hitler took Poland? cause of Russia. Why Hitler took France before Russia? To be sure his left front would be stabilized.

Russia was inevitable, and the only way Hitler could had won was.. was, was impossible.

Just imagine, he win stalingrad with heavy lost, and moscow with moderate lost.

He goes and get the rest of Russia. How could he hope to held that country within his graps WITHOUT damaging his west-north-western front?

Italy was his weak spot, as north Africa, as japan (japan didn't fight russia until very late)

I think the only way he could had won would had been to nuke them all, as piles of rumble cannot defend and threat you.. just 3 years too soon.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Read a book I mentioned in another thread "Stalingrad" by Antony Beever.



Excellent book. I highly recommend this as well.

[Skirmisher]

Simply from a dispasionate point of view X, you have to remember that Germany did have to divide thier forces all the while to defend against a possible attack in Europe while Russia only had to deal with Germany. They stripped their vast country to do battle with Germany and it still was a battle in doubt at times.

If Japan had been able to help out even a little you can bet things could have gone very differently. Russia was still very leery of Japan after getting a whupping from them not all that long before. If Russia thought there was a signifigant threat of attack they would have had to divide their own forces and then who knows.

Believe me I am glad they lost, but don't underestimate just how good Germany's forces were.

[StrayRogue]

X, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You are an A grade ignorant idiot. But plz, what was Canada or even France doing during the war?

[StrayRogue]

Some things to consider: Germany were MONTHs away from developing not only nuclear technology, but rocket technology. Think about it - no other country would have been able to stop the Nazi's as they launched rocket after rocket with impunity at targets thousands of miles away. Be thankfull he fell when he did.

[Edited on 8-12-03 by StrayRogue]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
X, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You are an A grade ignorant idiot. But plz, what was Canada or even France doing during the war?

Hey, France had an excuse for WWII. But only for WWII. After that, rip into'm all you want. And the ANZAC forces did some good, didn't they? Or am I getting my WW's mixed up?

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Simply from a dispasionate point of view X, you have to remember that Germany did have to divide thier forces all the while to defend against a possible attack in Europe while Russia only had to deal with Germany. They stripped their vast country to do battle with Germany and it still was a battle in doubt at times.

If Japan had been able to help out even a little you can bet things could have gone very differently. Russia was still very leery of Japan after getting a whupping from them not all that long before. If Russia thought there was a signifigant threat of attack they would have had to divide their own forces and then who knows.

Believe me I am glad they lost, but don't underestimate just how good Germany's forces were.

1939 to 1941 was germany's hot years simply because other countries weren't prepared.

What was the best tank in 1945? If I remember correctly, it was a russian tank

What was the best bombers, jet fighter(germany there, for a while), who had the nukes, biggest numbers of troops, cars, petrols, positions, etc.

Russia falling on 1942 would mean nothing as you did say they would just be a pain in their butt.

How many divisions remains in France? 5? Imagine on russia..

[StrayRogue]

Again, I'll ignore your ignorance X. Please read the book. Here's another good one to read "What if", an excellent text on what would have happened if certain things had or had not occured in many historical battles.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
What was the best bombers, jet fighter(germany there, for a while), who had the nukes, biggest numbers of troops, cars, petrols, positions, etc.


The answer to all those questions is America. (Except the troops, I think you have to give that to Russia by default)

No offense, but there's no way Germany had the best position in a geographic sense in the war. I'd go with England or America for that. Hell, even France was in a better position than Germany.

[StrayRogue]

Except that France was beaten and broken very quickly. Again though, read a book by someone who has actually studied the subject.

I'd say Germany had the best Airforce for the majority. Of course this was before and not after America stopped selling arms to the Nazi's and got involved in the war on the right side.

[Xcalibur]

France as Poland as the UK as America as in some way RUssia as almost every countries weren't prepared.

Germany build in secret (known or not, that isn't the point) since a lot of times.

Germany's pattern of attack (lightning attack, blitzkrieg (thanks to my latin friend)) was when you think of it the apotheose of their advance

air force attack and confuse the ennemy
tank scatters them
infantry destroy remaining forces

The rest of the world weren't ready, Germany was.

Stray, you seem to have cut out the insult, i'll profite of that moment then by asking this

If germany's air force was the best Airforce for the majority, why the RAF tied them?

Germany's navy was strong because of u-boats (who were again just better since they were using them in the first place in majority)

Russia's motto was something like, we win or we all die, they were like 200 millions... nah, impossible.

[Edited on 8-12-03 by Xcalibur]

[Edited on 8-12-03 by Xcalibur]

[StrayRogue]

Erm, yes we did know about them. One of the greatest pains we have is not stopping them when we knew we could. We saw them building up. We even told them to stop on a number of occasions.

Why did we win the Battle of Britain? Attacking something that is 200 miles over the water is difficult. It is even more difficult when you are huge bombers loaded down with fuel and weapons to attack fast moving fighters as well as the numerous ground based instalations. But they did alot of damage. A hell of a lot of damage.

[Xcalibur]

But they lost, and allies win, as early as 1941-42

the best air force lost

Air force being crippled means that UK and their allies (rather US and their allies) control the sky

That means simply, domination.

[StrayRogue]

:rolleyes:

Whatever you say, oh ye old expert.

:rolleyes:

[HarmNone]

If you ever have the opportunity to visit the Piskaryovka Cemetery in St. Petersburg (formerly, Leningrad), Russia, you really should do so. There is a small museum there as well, which is dedicated to the millions of Russians who died (mostly of hunger and cold) during the blockade of St. Petersburg.

To see it, to stand beside the mass graves of those innocents who lost their lives during this horrible event, will put much in perspective for those of us who did not live during those times.

HarmNone

[Caramia]

Or when you are in Europe, visit Auschwitz, Buchenwald, or Dachau for a sobering memorial. Try the lesser known extermination camps of Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, and Sobibor -- places responsible for the deaths of over 2.5 million people.

In Washington D.C., go to the Holocaust Museum. Everyone I know that has gone has cried.

Catch The Grey Zone on cable TV or rent it. It's a rather well done, but bleak look at death camp life and a famous uprising. It offers no hope, like Schindler's list or some of the other movies made about the Holocaust.