The hate against Simu

[Sypher]

I think personally this hate against Simu comes from the fact that they are charging 15 bucks a pop (and 40 bucks for premie and even more for plat... insane people?) for a game thats for all intents and purposes just a text based MUD. And are able to do this using almost no cost to themselves... aka using volunteer staff.

I think why it hurts so bad for current GS players is that Simu not only fucks you in the ass but you give Simu the giant wooden dildo to fuck you in the ass with AND you do it all with a big smile on your face. Just my observation.

[Anebriated]

Pretty much. If they are going to charge that much(more than most mmorpg's) people are going to want to see results. When they dont, or see a mass exodus of GM's, they are going to bitch.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I think you are wrong.

[StrayRogue]

What pisses me off about Simu is that it allows people like Tsin to operate with impunity. The idiots (and the corruption) ruined GS for me. Simu's weak-wristed approach to policing these moron's made it worse.

[Fallen]

I think people become bitter as it isn't easy for *some* people to just up and quit GS. When they do, it leaves them with a sour taste in their mouth, and what drove them from the game becomes an even greater grievance over time.

[Tea & Strumpets]

What pisses me off about Simu is that it allows people like Tsin to operate with impunity. The idiots (and the corruption) ruined GS for me. Simu's weak-wristed approach to policing these moron's made it worse.

Agreed. Have fun with players like Tsin and Michaelous.

[Sthrockmorton]

Agreed. Have fun with players like Tsin and Michaelous.

Michaelous is no more...

[CrystalTears]

Michaelous is no more...
Even Simu can perform miracles.

[Parkbandit]

I think personally this hate against Simu comes from the fact that they are charging 15 bucks a pop (and 40 bucks for premie and even more for plat... insane people?) for a game thats for all intents and purposes just a text based MUD. And are able to do this using almost no cost to themselves... aka using volunteer staff.

I think why it hurts so bad for current GS players is that Simu not only fucks you in the ass but you give Simu the giant wooden dildo to fuck you in the ass with AND you do it all with a big smile on your face. Just my observation.


If $15 a month is the cause of your hate.. get a fucking job. That was never the reason why I left... I just got bored and graphical games were always more attractive to me.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah. In the end the fry/unfry grind is boring. Post cap stuff in WoW is also boring. It's a paradox.

[Nieninque]

I got bored. Doing the same thing day in day out is boring as shit for me...in a game or in RL.

I dont hate Simu. I enjoyed playing the game when I did. Had some great times in fact. Left when I figured I was playing out of habit rather than fun.

Good luck to Simu. They created something that people wanted/want to pay for. That's showbusiness.

[Jayvn]

I've permanently quit at least 5 times :( I finally gave in.. I'll never be able to lose the addiction.. 15 a month or not

[Sean]

I'd be curious to know what Sypher actually does like about GS4 or Simutronics.

[CrystalTears]

I'd be curious to know what Sypher actually does like about GS4 or Simutronics.
These boards to post his dumbass threads of "omg what if?!".

[Skeeter]

I don't hate Simu. I hated some of the things they did to the game, like ridiculous amounts of experience between levels. Playing for 2 months to gain 1 level and 3 pts to my CS made the game brutally boring.

[Sypher]

If $15 a month is the cause of your hate.. get a fucking job. That was never the reason why I left... I just got bored and graphical games were always more attractive to me.

It always comes down to some socio-economic angle with you Parkbandit, some people just don't care about politics. What I'm talking about is people taking advantage of not so savvy perhaps emotionally distraught people into paying money (any amount of money) for what is essentially a text based MUD (and there are a ton of em) and having even more hooked players (who can't seem to let go) into perpetuating the cycle for free. While the real benefactors (ala Drug Lords) sit back and collect the cash while not even lifting a finger. Mind you this is minus the folks who play the game strictly to make money off it or who play for free by making money off it. (so this probably excludes most of the pop. on this forum)

This is where the hate relationship comes, people know they are getting fucked over but just can't drop it. They continue to pay 15, 40 or even 80 dollars a month (which is the same amount I pay for premium channel'd cable) for a non-professionally maintained no obligation to customers game... and they do this with a smile although it's hurting them inside. I mean dear god, Monks Coming in 2003?!! And Simu has a vested interest in using a full volunteer non-obligated staff too. Because the more they delay this shit the more money people will spend. It's a real fucked up relationship that I don't believe can last.

[Fallen]

I definitely am of the opinion that the worst thing a bored, recently capped pure can train in is spells for his CS. It is extremely unmotivating to get 64 PTPs and at MOST get a gain of 1 CS, and sometimes none.

I would suggest doing a complete change of character for those on the edge of boredom. Go ranged, or even a swinger. Once you're capped, the game becomes pretty damned easy. You will likely STILL burn out if you're only in it for the grind, but you forstall that day just a bit longer.

[Sypher]

I definitely am of the opinion that the worst thing a bored, recently capped pure can train in is spells for his CS. It is extremely unmotivating to get 64 PTPs and at MOST get a gain of 1 CS, and sometimes none.

I would suggest doing a complete change of character for those on the edge of boredom. Go ranged, or even a swinger. Once you're capped, the game becomes pretty damned easy. You will likely STILL burn out if you're only in it for the grind, but you forstall that day just a bit longer.

One up.

[Doughboy]

I got bored. Doing the same thing day in day out is boring as shit for me...in a game or in RL.

I dont hate Simu. I enjoyed playing the game when I did. Had some great times in fact. Left when I figured I was playing out of habit rather than fun.


Exactly why I've left. I came back for a month to give it a chance, but the game is just boring to me at this point. It's the same basic stuff each day... Oh well. At least killing people on Xbox Live doesn't get old. Theres nothing more fun than hearing some over caffeinated 13 year old screaming because somebody shot him, they glitched, etc etc etc..

[StrayRogue]

Beyond the RP and the friendship and the history there is no reward for the time spent in GS. There is no sense of accomplishment for anything. It's all an easy but time-consuming grind for meagre advancements in stats and skills which allow you to progressively hunt the same renamed mobs over and over again.

[Doughboy]

Agreed.

[Apathy]

It always comes down to some socio-economic angle with you Parkbandit, some people just don't care about politics. What I'm talking about is people taking advantage of not so savvy perhaps emotionally distraught people into paying money (any amount of money) for what is essentially a text based MUD (and there are a ton of em) and having even more hooked players (who can't seem to let go) into perpetuating the cycle for free. While the real benefactors (ala Drug Lords) sit back and collect the cash while not even lifting a finger. Mind you this is minus the folks who play the game strictly to make money off it or who play for free by making money off it. (so this probably excludes most of the pop. on this forum)

This is where the hate relationship comes, people know they are getting fucked over but just can't drop it. They continue to pay 15, 40 or even 80 dollars a month (which is the same amount I pay for premium channel'd cable) for a non-professionally maintained no obligation to customers game... and they do this with a smile although it's hurting them inside. I mean dear god, Monks Coming in 2003?!! And Simu has a vested interest in using a full volunteer non-obligated staff too. Because the more they delay this shit the more money people will spend. It's a real fucked up relationship that I don't believe can last.

I think you're smoking yourself retarded. Gemstone != drugs.

Simu games, not just GS, are a terrific timesink, and they're cheap to play. The problem comes with such slow progress, designed to substantially slow down even further the longer you play. Coupled with very slow game-wide evolution (Spew all the tech you want, this is a simple-coded game on a simple-frame); its just bad game design, pure and simple. They keep the 'family' that's been around for a long time, but retaining new or returning players is one hell of a problem.

[Parkbandit]

It always comes down to some socio-economic angle with you Parkbandit, some people just don't care about politics.

WTF?

Who said anything about politics besides you? It costs you $.50 a day to entertain yourself. If that is too expensive for you, then you have some real issues with money. You have to work a grand total of 3 hours a month to afford the game.. worst case senario. If 3 hours of your real life is not worth playing the game.. THEN STOP PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME!

It's up to the consumer.. just like any other money decision.. to evaluate if the product is worth the price they are asking for it.

Maybe you should spend less money on dope and more on GS?

[TheEschaton]

PB makes a fair point, even at the level I play at, GS is the cheapest addiction I've ever had. I spent more two nights ago on drinks while watching game 6 of the ALCS at a Fenway bar than I do on GS in a single month.

-TheE-

[Doughboy]

Dude... Two beers will cost you a month of GS in some places down here.

[Gan]

I used to catch grief from the mrs. about spending time with my imaginary friends in Gemstone... until she saw the paypal account total after I cashed out a level 100 empath, a level 88 rogue, a level 61 wizard, a level 42 sorcerer, and over 100m in silver.

Add to that the fact that I still enjoy playing my 30ish level cleric (nowhere near as bored as I was with the empath/rogue/wizard/sorcerer) all at the low price of a premie subscription. To which I'm about ready to cash in my premium points for a padded set of armor to sell for cash. ;)

And oh yes, I still am able to keep in touch with some of those 'imaginary' friends I've managed to befriend over the years.

And yes, my GS subscription is a fraction of what my summer green fee costs and or ball game bar tabs are. :)

[Stanley Burrell]

SIMU IS FUNDING TARR'RISM.

The fact that one poster is using a Colombian Drug Lord analogy in reference to Simu's market should, probably, bespeak enough decibels about that person's opinion in and of itself.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I think personally this hate against Simu comes from the fact that they are charging 15 bucks a pop (and 40 bucks for premie and even more for plat... insane people?) for a game thats for all intents and purposes just a text based MUD. And are able to do this using almost no cost to themselves... aka using volunteer staff.

I think why it hurts so bad for current GS players is that Simu not only fucks you in the ass but you give Simu the giant wooden dildo to fuck you in the ass with AND you do it all with a big smile on your face. Just my observation.


EVERY game, without exception, is going to have it's player base divided into camps of varying degrees of satisfaction and disatisfaction. It's just more noticeable in GS because the player base is so small in comparison to games like WOW, and we're infitinitely more organized as well as centralized in terms of message boards.

It's not just a hate-Simu thing. No company is immune.

[CrystalTears]

I don't know.. there's a LOT of hostility and anger on the WoW boards too. :D

Actually, a lot of games are more fun when you don't read the official forums. It's one of the things that caused me to quit last time.

[Tsa`ah]

I don't know.. there's a LOT of hostility and anger on the WoW boards too. :D

Actually, a lot of games are more fun when you don't read the official forums. It's one of the things that caused me to quit last time.

This is a huge truth.

The last 2 years of my time playing GS was divided between the officials and actually playing game. It was also the most unsatisfying time in which I played.

I fell into that shortly at the beginning of WoW ... then realized what a colossal waste (vs gameplay) of time it was from my GS experience.

Any game is going to have it's downfall, be it graphic or text based. Simu's is the endless grind and the monotony ... with an extreme lack of alternate content. A game like WoW is the short grind, and then the cap grind.

I think Simu falls short of even the worst massively online game simply because of the lack of development. The content tends to stagnate and the best you get is a few verbs here and there with the rare introduction of a newer system.

Without hesitation I dropped GS over loathing more than hate. It wasn't the money spent, but rather a combination of money and time vs return satisfaction. It felt as if I would have to attach my lips to a GMs ass, live most of my life in game, by every event ticket, and start attending conventions in order to get in on roleplay events and get a little more than off the rack merchant items.

I had spent several years without so much as an alteration or raffle item. That was attending a merchant when I had time and a merchant was around. I had more luck in my last year by MAKING time and buying tickets ... but in the end a good merchant whore would have been able to get my years worth of work done in one sitting at any given event.

[Skeeter]

I had something like 48 items "serviced" during the Dhu Ghillywack

[TheEschaton]

Hmmm, maybe I should stop reading these boards to play more. Hmmmm...

[vorlash]

What would be the solution to the fry/unfry grind? How is that different than WoW where you just grind massive amounts of EXP and have no real interaction in the game?

[ViridianAsp]

I don't hate Simu. It just seems every year that goes by I feel, less and less satisfied with my subscription. The fact that they have very many unfinished things from four years ago and the fact if you actually want interesting RP you have to pay an additional 30 something dollars...

Let's think about this, that's 70 dollars.

I could buy

4-6 books

OR

2-3 DvDs

OR

and maybe 2 dinners out (give or take, family diner).

Should I be spending money on game that's becoming tedious or should I drop it?

They do not keep the goals they make. They rarely run an event where all people can be involved and if they do, only certain people really get to be apart of it.

*shrugs* I dunno, I'm thinking my time to move on is coming really soon. Though I said that awhile ago and I came back.

[StrayRogue]

What would be the solution to the fry/unfry grind? How is that different than WoW where you just grind massive amounts of EXP and have no real interaction in the game?

There's a whole lot more to do in WoW. There is actually a whole lot more to the classes; each has a dynamic role.

[Hulkein]

Money was never an issue for me. The game became very boring when they opened up all the new areas at the same time as it decreased in players. I always loved it when the game was packed and there were conversations/roleplaying going on almost everywhere.

[Warriorbird]

One area where you and I are pretty much the same, Hulkein. I think they could detonate a bunch of the map and maybe improve things.

[Razarn]

I loved my time in Gs , so much i stayed for 10 years but by the end i couldnt even be bothered to log in. I dont hate SIMU but there was nothing really interesting about it after so long, same old same old everyday. When i worked out what it was costing me and money got tight it was a no brainer and i managed to sell both accounts 8D too. Went over to WOW and have never looked back.

Strayrogue put his finger on it i think in that the classes and the mechanics of them are quite involved to fully understand. Im still a relative newb and trying to learn how to play certain classes and im still some way off doing so. Maybe its just me but i like to actually find out things and how they work or maybe i just like to be able to actually see how hacking something to bits looks 8)

[Latrinsorm]

Maybe its just me but i like to actually find out things and how they workIn addition to GS-Barbie, this field takes up the majority of my time in-game.

[DCSL]

I don't hate Simu as a whole, either. I was notoriously resistant to leveling too, though. Most of my energy was put into playing Cyber Barbie and furthering the inevitable supremacy of the Nalfein over all other elves.

[Augie]

I got bored. Doing the same thing day in day out is boring as shit for me...in a game or in RL.

I dont hate Simu. I enjoyed playing the game when I did. Had some great times in fact. Left when I figured I was playing out of habit rather than fun.



I couldn't agree more. That's my exact sentiment when it comes to the reasons behind why I left.

I plan on re-opening my accounts just to liquidate stuff, but that's just because I always hated when people left with really cool items that were never to be seen again.

I couldn't see myself ever selling my characters, but the items - who cares?

[Snapp]

I don't hate Simu at all... but I do get annoyed at their lack of following through on their "goals."

If I did hate on Simu as much as the OP does, I'd definitely STOP USING THEIR PRODUCT.

[Jolena]

I couldn't agree more. That's my exact sentiment when it comes to the reasons behind why I left.

I plan on re-opening my accounts just to liquidate stuff, but that's just because I always hated when people left with really cool items that were never to be seen again.

I couldn't see myself ever selling my characters, but the items - who cares?

DON'T SELL THE SYLVAN FIGURINE, I BEG OF YOU!!! :cry:

[DCSL]

Wow, Augie quit? But she's like, a merchant fixture.

[Methais]

I think personally this hate against Simu comes from the fact that they are charging 15 bucks a pop (and 40 bucks for premie and even more for plat... insane people?) for a game thats for all intents and purposes just a text based MUD. And are able to do this using almost no cost to themselves... aka using volunteer staff.

I think why it hurts so bad for current GS players is that Simu not only fucks you in the ass but you give Simu the giant wooden dildo to fuck you in the ass with AND you do it all with a big smile on your face. Just my observation.

I hate them because they nerfed Charge Item and Mana Leech.

[Fallen]

I can't wait until Augie's stuff goes up, it is going to be like another Ebon Gate auction.

[ViridianAsp]

I think I might want to buy that sketch pad only to chuck it down the well, no offense but that thing was damn annoying at merchant events.

[diethx]

I think I might want to buy that sketch pad only to chuck it down the well, no offense but that thing was damn annoying at merchant events.

I was thinking the exact same thing, except I wouldn't waste my money, heh. It was seriously the most annoying thing at events.

[That Jay]

I think I might want to buy that sketch pad only to chuck it down the well, no offense but that thing was damn annoying at merchant events.

Amen to that!

Especially when she would use it in a room where the merchant SPECIFICALLY asked for silence.

[Silent_Willy]

Know what I would do if I hated the game? Stop playing it and stop posting messages about it. Odd how that works.

[Nieninque]

What would be the solution to the fry/unfry grind? How is that different than WoW where you just grind massive amounts of EXP and have no real interaction in the game?

Funny you should say that, because there are times I get incredibly bored with WoW as well...but then they change the game or add something that makes it a little less boring for a while.

In GS it was always the same old grind.

[vorlash]

I enjoyed the raid scene back when it was...well it was never new. Just the same shit from EQ moved over and re-badged as "Exciting 40-man content!"

Then the expansion came out and they released smaller versions of the SAME OLD SHIT!

Yay, endless grinds of SSC/TK/BT/KZN. + Guilds that couldn't maintain focused groups for any of those instances would fall apart because 10-25 would get to go, and 30 would sit on their thumbs and bitch about not going.

You think GS drama is bad, try adding millions of players who can do 2 of 4 things: grind rep, grind raids, grind crafting, grind PvP. Once you finished grinding those things, you can do 2 more new and exciting things: Sit in a main town and bawl out overpriced services.

That's WoW in a nutshell folks, don't let anyone else tell you differently.

[Skeeter]

because your opinion is the one unifying force in the world. Good to know. You don't have a strong penchant for cookies do you?

[Parkbandit]

I enjoyed the raid scene back when it was...well it was never new. Just the same shit from EQ moved over and re-badged as "Exciting 40-man content!"

Then the expansion came out and they released smaller versions of the SAME OLD SHIT!

Yay, endless grinds of SSC/TK/BT/KZN. + Guilds that couldn't maintain focused groups for any of those instances would fall apart because 10-25 would get to go, and 30 would sit on their thumbs and bitch about not going.

You think GS drama is bad, try adding millions of players who can do 2 of 4 things: grind rep, grind raids, grind crafting, grind PvP. Once you finished grinding those things, you can do 2 more new and exciting things: Sit in a main town and bawl out overpriced services.

That's WoW in a nutshell folks, don't let anyone else tell you differently.

LOL. GS drama IS bad.. because pricks can just be that.. pricks. The population is so small, they find themselves 'famous' and love the attention. You can't do that effectively in WoW.

As far as grinding.. yea... perhaps. It's absolutely no different in any game though.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah...the only variant I've seen is games with actual contests of skill and no real advancement other than in loot, which is non stat effecting.

[Gan]

Skeeter's new avatar wins this thread.

[Silent_Willy]

You don't have a strong penchant for cookies do you?

How would him posting here be any different from the other people in this very thread posting after quitting? This is about as much as an insult as telling someone they are a poopy face.

[Augie]

DON'T SELL THE SYLVAN FIGURINE, I BEG OF YOU!!! :cry:

Pfffffft! Tell your man to buy it for you! He had plenty of chances to do so!

Pssssst? Stunseed? BUY THE DAMN FIGURINE!!!!! Heehee.


I can't wait until Augie's stuff goes up, it is going to be like another Ebon Gate auction.

:lolwave: A lot of my crap did come from the EG auction. I have so much shit stored across 4 premie accounts worth of characters. I won't even know where to begin.

Probably a big 1 coin MB auction for the littler things and then somethin on the boards for the bigger items.

I haven't even thought about Washee's items either - gah he has so much cool stuff too hah. We're going to have a field day sorting all that shit out.


I think I might want to buy that sketch pad only to chuck it down the well

Heh that one's attuned so it wouldn't be going up for sale.

[Augie]

Skeeter's new avatar wins this thread.
:yeahthat:

[Jazuela]

I think there's something in what Sypher says. I don't think it's the whole reason there's so much annoyance with Simu, and I don't see it as "hating" on them either. But, if you know there are good golf greens in your town, and you drive 40 miles every weekend to a good golf green just because they have a GREEN fountain in the water hazard on the fairway instead of the BLUE ones at your local course..

And you not only have to drive 40 miles, but you have to pay $10 for a round, and you can't reserve a tee-off time - you have to just go, get in line, and the guy from the pro shop will tell you when it's your turn...and the guys at the pro-shop are ALL like what'shisname from Caddyshack who's always trying to blow up the gopher....

And you know that the three equally good courses in your own area are FREE, and you can request your own tee-time, and one of them is close enough you can even walk to it, and the pro-shop guys are actually nice folks and there is no Caddyshack groundskeeper...

Well wouldn't you decide the green waterhazard fountain just isn't worth that much effort and aggravation? Why not get your buddies to come with you to the other courses? If those guys keep hanging out at the 19th Hole at that place that charges $5 for a beer, and you get free beer at the other courses...wouldn't you eventually decide that your buddies are a bunch of morons who just like showing off that they can spend money, and go have fun where you don't have to pay anything at all and find some NEW buddies to hang out with?

I think that's what Sypher is trying to say. I don't know him..does he still play? Wasn't there a GM named Sypher at one point?

[Skeeter]

How would him posting here be any different from the other people in this very thread posting after quitting? This is about as much as an insult as telling someone they are a poopy face.

Is it tough to reach around his hips to type with his dick in your mouth?

[Silent_Willy]

Is it tough to reach around his hips to type with his dick in your mouth?

I dont even know the guy. But it's ok, little Skeeter here probably got caught AFK scripting once and thought it was OH SO UNFAIR that he was punished. Aww, QQ Skeeter. We feel so sorry for you. You got your revenge, someone stopped spending hours a day working for free.

Too bad you are too batshit retarded to realize that firing someone from an unpaid position isnt really a punishment.

[Celephais]

Too bad you are too batshit retarded to realize that firing someone from an unpaid position isnt really a punishment.
So you're saying that Khaladon was even more batshit retarded to work an unpaid job? Or you're too batshit retarded to realize not all payment is monetary.

[Skeeter]

Guess they decided that threatening your paying customers and attempting to throw your weight around was a bad idea.

I would also add

FUCKING PWND!


On a side note, I thought Khal was a great guy and brought a lot to the game. Shame that the game has lost so many great GMs in such a short time. Makes my decision to sell out seem better each announcement.


Sure looks like I really have an axe to grind with the guy.

All you've done since you've started posting here is to swing on the guys nuts like tarzan. Any reference towards Khal (who is probably you) mean spirited or otherwise has your dander up like a jewish woman in a titty bar.

For someone you don't even know you sure defend him like he's jesus fucking christ. And if you're not Khal I guess we know who was first in line for an alter at simucon.

[Methais]

I dont even know the guy. But it's ok, little Skeeter here probably got caught AFK scripting once and thought it was OH SO UNFAIR that he was punished. Aww, QQ Skeeter. We feel so sorry for you. You got your revenge, someone stopped spending hours a day working for free.

Too bad you are too batshit retarded to realize that firing someone from an unpaid position isnt really a punishment.

I could care less about Khaladon getting fired (though he did try to take my house once and Kitrina kicked him in the balls and told him to open it back up), but please stop having your lips wrapped firmly around his throbbing dong already.

[Artha]

Sure looks like I really have an axe to grind with the guy.
Obviously, he fired you or something.

[Shifted]

Skeeter's new avatar wins this thread.

x2 FTW

[Skeeter]

Obviously, he fired you or something.

That bastard :cry:

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

That bastard :cry:

I heard it was because you were stopped from cybering in public and are mad as this has cut into your ability to get EG silvers.

[oldanforgotten]

I enjoyed the raid scene back when it was...well it was never new. Just the same shit from EQ moved over and re-badged as "Exciting 40-man content!"

Then the expansion came out and they released smaller versions of the SAME OLD SHIT!

Yay, endless grinds of SSC/TK/BT/KZN. + Guilds that couldn't maintain focused groups for any of those instances would fall apart because 10-25 would get to go, and 30 would sit on their thumbs and bitch about not going.

You think GS drama is bad, try adding millions of players who can do 2 of 4 things: grind rep, grind raids, grind crafting, grind PvP. Once you finished grinding those things, you can do 2 more new and exciting things: Sit in a main town and bawl out overpriced services.

That's WoW in a nutshell folks, don't let anyone else tell you differently.



If the guild was run horribly sure. With the switch from 40 to 25 man content, we simply reduced the number of raiders from 56 to 35, which turned out to be a blessing. In the end, yes, there was drama for about 3 days as we gave 25+ of our weaker performers the option to go non-raid, picked up 6 from other guilds undergoing similar transitions, and refocused.

35 people allowed for a relatively relaxed 5 night a week schedule with 2 off days, and 2 non DKP, non measured attendance days. We went from not being able to down the Horsemen pre-BC to having cleared Illidan already, and working on farming Hyjal/BT now in front of the release of the Sunwell.

In the end, our weaker performer list now runs a sister raiding guild (that we are still friends with and run SSC/TK with on non raid nights with a mix of alts/mains), who are working on Archimonde and Mother Shahraz.

As for 2 of 4 things, that?s also false. You can grind all 4 if you want to.

GS hunting is a far worse grind than farming in WoW. Who are you kidding? And the pvp? It?s whoever hits first, or whoever has less lag. Impressive. GS has always been about who has more real dollars to buy items. The advantages of GS are that one can become quite powerful simply soloing content, and grinding out experience alone, whereas in WoW, it?s heavily equipment based, which requires a much larger group effort.

The grind in gemstone hasn?t changed in 12+ years. The ONLY thing that has changed are some game mechanics to create an equality amongst the classes. There is no content that requires real strategy, and there is no real test of skill. There is no such game that exists in an MMORPG setting that ISNT a grind of some sort. WoW can definitely be boring if you run solo. It can also be boring if you suck, which many players do. There is definitely a skill transition moving from GS to WoW, because GS doesn?t require any. Even WoW BG?s and arena?s require a lot of skill, a lot of transitioning changes on the fly, and a lot of communication. Macros and button mashing simply doesn?t cut it at the 2000+ rating level.

I was at a friend?s house who still plays GS over the Labor Day weekend, and using his level 100 mage (recently capped), and his level 100 rogue (well over the cap), I hunted solo in OTF 11 times with a grand total of 3 deaths (all on the mage). Tough stuff.

I gave him specifics on what to do to tank Malchazar in Karazhan and had him then do that with my warrior (as in, exact rotations, what timers to use, what debuffs to look at). 6 consecutive wipes in BT/Hyjal gear. I had him use my shaman for DPS on illhoof. Gave him the same rundown. Finished with a bullshit 440 DPS, compared to the 1100 or so the shaman can usually pump out.

Gemstone provides an easier method to grind, and easier grind, and a more defined and available cap. Cash makes more things accessible, and everything can be bought with it. WoW is a horrible single player game, and will never be the single player game that gemstone is, simply because being a single player restricts you from 75% of endgame content. Furthermore, the time commitment at the cap to advance by means of gear is a much larger one.

So, grind? Yes. But so is every other game. Challenging? Much moreso than GS. Time Commitment? 20+ hours a week at endgame to really get anywhere.
________
TOYOTA VENZA HISTORY (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Venza)

[Skeeter]

I heard it was because you were stopped from cybering in public and are mad as this has cut into your ability to get EG silvers.

I'll rape a bitch in TSSW

[Some Rogue]

I was at a friend’s house who still plays GS over the Labor Day weekend, and using his level 100 mage (recently capped), and his level 100 rogue (well over the cap), I hunted solo in OTF 11 times with a grand total of 3 deaths (all on the mage). Tough stuff.

I gave him specifics on what to do to tank Malchazar in Karazhan and had him then do that with my warrior (as in, exact rotations, what timers to use, what debuffs to look at). 6 consecutive wipes in BT/Hyjal gear. I had him use my shaman for DPS on illhoof. Gave him the same rundown. Finished with a bullshit 440 DPS, compared to the 1100 or so the shaman can usually pump out.



This is kind of a retarded comparison. If the guy had never played WoW before, of course he was going to wipe. I bet if you took someone who'd never played GS and threw them in OTF on a capped wizard, they'd die repeatedly too. You've played GS before, you had some experience at it.

Once you know what your skills are, what the mobs do and how each fight works, it becomes little more than button mashing in WoW too.

[Tsa`ah]

This is kind of a retarded comparison. If the guy had never played WoW before, of course he was going to wipe. I bet if you took someone who'd never played GS and threw them in OTF on a capped wizard, they'd die repeatedly too. You've played GS before, you had some experience at it.

Once you know what your skills are, what the mobs do and how each fight works, it becomes little more than button mashing in WoW too.

I think you're wasting your keystrokes ... just saying.

[oldanforgotten]

This is kind of a retarded comparison. If the guy had never played WoW before, of course he was going to wipe. I bet if you took someone who'd never played GS and threw them in OTF on a capped wizard, they'd die repeatedly too. You've played GS before, you had some experience at it.

Once you know what your skills are, what the mobs do and how each fight works, it becomes little more than button mashing in WoW too.

He plays WoW as well. He has a 29 twink warrior in the guild, as well as a 67 non raiding Nelf Hunter. It was his first trek into Karazhan, and my first ever venture into OTF.

Some fights in WoW (most solo things for that matter) are nothing more than button mashing. But in many later fights, so much more comes into play, even on trash pulls. Positioning, what abilities to use on what targets, which targets to use AoE, which targets to kite, and a lot of that changes each encounter due to random elements. There is a lot more going on in many of those encounters.
________
NEW MEXICO MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

[Tsa`ah]

He plays WoW as well. He has a 29 twink warrior in the guild, as well as a 67 non raiding Nelf Hunter. It was his first trek into Karazhan, and my first ever venture into OTF.

Some fights in WoW (most solo things for that matter) are nothing more than button mashing. But in many later fights, so much more comes into play, even on trash pulls. Positioning, what abilities to use on what targets, which targets to use AoE, which targets to kite, and a lot of that changes each encounter due to random elements. There is a lot more going on in many of those encounters.

You're trying to compare a solo effort to a group effort ... these are not the same.

You can't throw someone who has never tanked in a raid setting, let alone played a tanking warrior, into that situation as an example of how much "more complex" it is.

The first few times anyone successfully clears an instance it's tactics and whatnot ... after that it's button mashing. Accomplishments in GS or WoW are all time/experience based ... not ability based. Given time, anyone can accomplish them.

To restate an old phrase ... it's not rocket science.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I think that's what Sypher is trying to say. I don't know him..does he still play? Wasn't there a GM named Sypher at one point?

Cypher

[Jazuela]

I was close. Thanks.

[Sean of the Thread]

1/2 star

[oldanforgotten]

You're trying to compare a solo effort to a group effort ... these are not the same.

You can't throw someone who has never tanked in a raid setting, let alone played a tanking warrior, into that situation as an example of how much "more complex" it is.

The first few times anyone successfully clears an instance it's tactics and whatnot ... after that it's button mashing. Accomplishments in GS or WoW are all time/experience based ... not ability based. Given time, anyone can accomplish them.

To restate an old phrase ... it's not rocket science.

No one is calling it rocket science.

I have never played a mage at level 100 before, nor have I seen OTF. But I was really good at pressing a button to prep and cast the same spell over and over again until the thing was dead, keeping up my buffs, searching it and moving on. Whether or not that was the most efficient way to do it aside (it probably wasn?t, as just casting the same spell over and over again probably would constitute a shitty strategy), it worked just fine. Most of my dying was allotted to not knowing the map at all, and getting lost. With the rogue, even easier. Stance def, wait for the thing to come down, hide, stance off, ambush critical bodypart. 3 buttons there. Is that the best way to do it? Probably not, but it worked flawlessly just the same.

I can farm solo content in wow by going afk and auto-attacking, which is even easier. BUT, I will never get anywhere past just the basic level 70 doing that either. In gemstone, the above (likely skill-less and crappy) strategies worked just fine, at the highest level of content, with no major issues. If I spend 4 hours a day vs a very good mage/rogue spending 3 hours a day, we?ll end up in exactly the same place, with probably a similar amount of silver, and similar quality purchased items.

I can spend 6 weeks (24 hours a day) afk auto-attacking stuff in WoW, and I?d end up with enough money to buy nothing but maybe a couple ass BOE epics, which are absolutely nothing compared to the quality of higher end endgame content. That is what I am using to create the basis that it is easier to get ahead in gemstone than WoW.

But as for strategy and tactics until you learn it, and then button mashing later, you?re right, to an extent. In Karazhan, very few bosses have random elements to consider. But several of the fights do have different tactics depending on group makeup. Even the Prince fight requires more than button mashing. The tank has to know where to kite to, has to manage a rotation of abilities that has an ideal endpoint, but must always be shifted during rage-starved moments. 900+ TPS can?t be safely maintained just by spamming heroic strikes, sunders and shield slams.

But then riddle me this. What classes in gemstone have to sit around and learn all kinds of different tactics in hunting, to the point that the first 6-7 times the move into a like level hunting area, they consistently die right away until they figure out the proper of spells/abilities, coordinating tactics, etc? At what level between levels, say 80-100, does a sorc, mage, or any class for that matter, change their spell rotations?

But while it does become repetitive after time, 3 or 4 buttons will never cut it in most boss fights, and even later trash. You have to know where to stand. You have to move around quite a bit, rotate spells/abilities (more than 3 or 4 for most classes), change targets, and there are random elements in the fight that ensure that damage is spread randomly, so focused healing on tanks only will never cut it either.

There are plenty of fights that would qualify as outright difficult, and its proven by the fact that it has taken so long to get them down, and even now, you figure about 300 guilds worldwide have defeated Illidan. You figure around 35 people per raid group, that?s about 10,000 people out of 5+ million. And I frankly don?t care what anyone says about the grind factor, but the best guilds in the world still wipe multiple times a week on some bosses (RoS, Shahraz, Archimonde), because of the random elements that can just make the fight almost impossible to recover from. They take a significant amount of knowledge, ability to adapt, teamwork, and skill to complete, and there is nothing button mashing about it.

I?m not saying WoW is rocket science. In the end, it?s more like 7th grade. The raid content has inherent difficulty, because often, it requires 25 people to be of 7th grade skill, and one person playing pre-school can cause group failure. But I?ve yet to see content in gemstone that requires anything past kindergarten.
________
Ford Building History (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Building)

[Latrinsorm]

But I’ve yet to see content in gemstone that requires anything past kindergarten.You also have yet to see everything in GemStone. Perhaps this is the crux of the argument.

[Celephais]

You also have yet to see everything in GemStone. Perhaps this is the crux of the argument.
As someone who hasn't capped, you obviously know nothing.

Having played both I will certainly agree that tactics in WoW, or pretty much any MMO can have a much more stated effect. In gemstone the endroll is WAY too heavily weighted, and not bell curved. Early on in WoW you can start to see tactics play a heavy roll... both games have certain set number of cycles you learn and apply them during different encounters... neither game really requires you come up with something on the fly, someone could give you a guide with 20 different tactics, and when to apply them, and you'd be set.

I would actually say that merchant chasing requires more tactics than hunting in GS.

[oldanforgotten]

You also have yet to see everything in GemStone. Perhaps this is the crux of the argument.

You?re right, there are places I have yet to see.

The areas I?ve seen in gemstone that were generally avoided because the area was ?hard? (in my time):

Roa?ters
Illoke
Rift
Stone Sentinels
Fire Mages

As of recently, now OTF.

What have I not seen? I?ll be happy to give it a crack and see how button mashing works there this weekend.
________
TOYOTA VANGUARD SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Vanguard)

[StrayRogue]

There's really not much to see in GS. It's pretty much all the same, just renamed with higher stats.

[Parkbandit]

You also have yet to see everything in GemStone. Perhaps this is the crux of the argument.


We get it already Latrinsorm.. you have a capped character. This is your argument against anyone posting an opinion about GS. "Well, you don't have a capped character, so your opinion doesn't mean as much as mine"

Find a new argument.. because this was remains a stupid one. But hey, congrats on reaching level 100!!!!111oneone.

[Tea & Strumpets]

We get it already Latrinsorm.. you have a capped character. This is your argument against anyone posting an opinion about GS. "Well, you don't have a capped character, so your opinion doesn't mean as much as mine"

Find a new argument.. because this was remains a stupid one. But hey, congrats on reaching level 100!!!!111oneone.

Seriously Latrinsorm, I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of you bringing up your lvl 100 character in every discussion.

[Celephais]

Find a new argument.. because this was remains a stupid one. But hey, congrats on reaching level 100!!!!111oneone.


Seriously Latrinsorm, I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of you bringing up your lvl 100 character in every discussion.

I agree, some of us enjoy aspects of the game other than simply getting to the highest level, personally I enjoy the mechanics of the game, finding out how things work... it's not a big race to get to level 100+ for me like it obviously is for you. Sheeeeesh.

[StrayRogue]

What Latrinestorm bought a level 100 recently?

[oldanforgotten]

As someone who hasn't capped, you obviously know nothing.

Having played both I will certainly agree that tactics in WoW, or pretty much any MMO can have a much more stated effect. In gemstone the endroll is WAY too heavily weighted, and not bell curved. Early on in WoW you can start to see tactics play a heavy roll... both games have certain set number of cycles you learn and apply them during different encounters... neither game really requires you come up with something on the fly, someone could give you a guide with 20 different tactics, and when to apply them, and you'd be set.

I would actually say that merchant chasing requires more tactics than hunting in GS.


My point exactly. Button mashing alone doesn't cut it in WoW like it does in GS. And while the cycling is true, coming up with stuff on the fly actually IS a part of WoW in some of the hardest encounters.

I'll give you some examples:

A typical group makeup:

2 prot warrior, 1 prot pally, 1 DPS warrior/feral druid, 2 holy priests, 3 holy pally, 1 resto shaman, 1 resto druid, 2 rogues, 1 enhance shaman, 3 hunters, 4 warlocks, 2 mages, 2 shadow priests.

You?re fighting A?lar, in phase 2.
Q: Tank 1 had melt armor put on him right before a dive. Tank 2 taunted, but unfortunately, the dive centered on tank 2?s position, and he ate the knockback, meaning A?lar will now go after tank 1.

Tank 1 should:
a) Shield Wall and Kite A?lar towards the center of the room away from the flame patches while the healers heal through it.
b) Run directly at tank 2 while tank 2 runs at tank 1 and wait for an Intervene.
c) Shield Wall and Last Stand and Kite A?lar towards the center of the room away from the flame patches while the healers heal through it.
d) Kite A?lar towards the center of the room away from the flame patches while the healers heal through it.
e) Panic and wipe, because the strategy guides don?t cover this.


A: Wait, it depends, While D and E are never the answer, depending on the location of the flame patch, if b can be accomplished without A?lar moving to the outside of the platform, it is the best option, however, if that results in A?lar traveling through the ranged DPS, or into the groups with the embers, not good. But in the end, depending on where everyone else is, and where the flame patches are, the answer changes, and shield wall kiting may work best. But wait, it gets better. Because A?lar will flame buffet if there is no target within melee range, using strategy b requires the enhancement shaman to stay in melee range and get healed through the damage (which should hopefully only be 3-4 hits. But wait, even better! If the ember happens to be nearby and the DPS off tank is available, that taunt can work too, so long as they can get there before a flame buffet, and get there without a flame patch in the way!. Point is, the answer changes dramatically depending on the situation, and while yes, there is nothing past 7th grade in the decision making process, it?s not simple button mashing.

Similar issues arise if, for example:

1. The first advisor in KT targets one of the tanks for the other advisors during stage 3. (This is probably actually 10th grade stuff to resolve, because depending on when this happens, and to which tank, the answer is DRAMATICALLY different.)
2. RoS enrages in phase 1 on the feral druid, or any class that has no instant threat drop.
3. The MT gets sheared on Illidan.
4. You have no shaman in the group for Leo. (give it a try sometime, quite entertaining to figure the positioning out)
5. A Naga add targets the kiter during Vashj. (the answer changes based on a whole assload of criteria.)
6. KT mind controls both rogues and the main tank at the same time. (yes, recovery is possible, try and figure it out, because again, the answer is never the same, it just follows a basic pattern)

Many of the answers and decisions BECOME common sense after experience, but some of them require a lot of factors to weigh in, and decisions have about a 1-2 second window to be made in. 3 or 4 macros was all I ever needed to hunt in GS. I?m curious to see which of these WoW raid encounters could be done with just a few macros.
________
Suzuki rgv250 history (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_RGV250)

[Latrinsorm]

Seriously Latrinsorm, I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of you bringing up your lvl 100 character in every discussion.rofl, I seriously had to read the post twice to make sure he was really talking to me. Very disorienting.
The areas I’ve seen in gemstone that were generally avoided because the area was “hard” (in my time):I'd suggest that roa'ters and illoke actually don't embody challenge in a tactical sense very well, but that's a topic that's been done to death.

For starters, I'd recommend giving shan a whirl. It will obviously be significantly easier if your character is of substantially higher level, so if you don't have a 40s or under I'll have to think some more.

[Warriorbird]

Thurfel's Cellar.

[oldanforgotten]

There's really not much to see in GS. It's pretty much all the same, just renamed with higher stats.


That?s a lot of what I saw too. I uphunted 10-15 levels for fire mages when they were the highest level thing around (level 90ish at the time). Did the same thing a while later when the rift was the big new thing. Never lasted in GS to the creation of OTF, but I had a toon near the cap.

I?ve never played a wizard before (only a rogue, bard to around level 40ish in GS3 and warrior). But in 5 minutes of explanation, and 3 buttons to press, I was up and running in OTF, which, when I left, was the highest hunting area around. If there is harder stuff to try, I?ll be happy to try the 3 button methodology there.

In terms of most content I?ve seen, gemstone hunting is the equivalent of playing Duck Hunt with the gun up against the screen.
________
FORD ZEPHYR PICTURE (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Zephyr)

[Latrinsorm]

Thurfel's Cellar is also a good one. It's unfortunate that it's so low-level that characters train out of it very quickly.

[oldanforgotten]

rofl, I seriously had to read the post twice to make sure he was really talking to me. Very disorienting.I'd suggest that roa'ters and illoke actually don't embody challenge in a tactical sense very well, but that's a topic that's been done to death.

For starters, I'd recommend giving shan a whirl. It will obviously be significantly easier if your character is of substantially higher level, so if you don't have a 40s or under I'll have to think some more.

Did Shan with both a bard uphunting 5-6 levels, and a warrior of like level. Again, like playing Duck Hunt with the gun against the screen.
________
Dc Marijuana Dispensaries (http://dc.dispensaries.org/)

[Latrinsorm]

I hope you'll excuse me if I find that extremely dubious and thus ask the question: to what extent were your endeavors assisted by others?

[Celephais]

I never did much end game in WoW, but it's not exactly different than my end game experience in EQ (I did end game up until PoP & LDoN, stopped before GOD), there are tons and tons of different little factors that go into what you do when, and how quickly you respond making the right choice certainly plays a factor... but in reality there are a finite number of options, and eventually it becomes boilerplate.

GS just doesn't have enough varied tactics to make it un-noticable. GS's main deterent to being tactically amazing is the lack of attrition... generally in GS you either get killed instantly or there is an instant momment where you know you're dead (or you're spamming sign of healing like crazy hoping your stun wears out).

[oldanforgotten]

I hope you'll excuse me if I find that extremely dubious and thus ask the question: to what extent were your endeavors assisted by others?

Considering it was years ago, I can't answer the question exactly, however, I typically had very good equipment, and mass spells. For OTF, I was self spelled only on the wiz, and the rogue had 2 or 3 spells on him (strength, mass brills, and maybe 1 or 2 others, which I was told would be all I could use or I'd blow up to some random manuever attack that targets spells).
________
HASH HONEY OIL (http://trichomes.org/hashish/honey-oil)

[CrystalTears]

Heh, shan are SO not what they used to be about 2-3 years ago.

[oldanforgotten]

I never did much end game in WoW, but it's not exactly different than my end game experience in EQ (I did end game up until PoP & LDoN, stopped before GOD), there are tons and tons of different little factors that go into what you do when, and how quickly you respond making the right choice certainly plays a factor... but in reality there are a finite number of options, and eventually it becomes boilerplate.

GS just doesn't have enough varied tactics to make it un-noticable. GS's main deterent to being tactically amazing is the lack of attrition... generally in GS you either get killed instantly or there is an instant momment where you know you're dead (or you're spamming sign of healing like crazy hoping your stun wears out).

98% of it becomes boilerplate. Some of it varies so wildly (with multiple correct answers) that it allows us to keep that illusion of tactical randomness.

Again, its NOT rocket science. but decision making is part of the game.
________
Penny stocks (http://pennystockpicks.net/)

[Artha]

Difficulty in GS just means a higher chance that you'll randomly, instantly die.

Woo, fun.

[Methais]

Difficulty in GS just means a higher chance that you'll randomly, instantly die.

Woo, fun.

QFT. But to be fair, difficulty in WoW just means a higher chance that at least 1 out of 24 other people will fuck up and everyone will die.

[oldanforgotten]

QFT. But to be fair, difficulty in WoW just means a higher chance that at least 1 out of 24 other people will fuck up and everyone will die.


Again, that is only part of the equation. Yes, 25 people need to pay attention vs. 1, which in truth, is the largest element of difficulty in most encounters, but some of them actually require 25 solid players.

I can?t count the number of apps we have had from hunters, locks, mages, and rogues where they were like ?I?m always #1 in DPS in my guild?, or ?I?m in merc glad gear, I can can DPS LOL?, only to watch them put out some horrible number between 350 and 800 DPS. If your raid is filled with those level of players, you?re never getting past Gruul. Any dumb fuck can get the welfare epics over time, and think they are great, the only real measure outside of raiding for general levels of skill would be in the team ratings, and its a different type of skill altogether.

Here?s the thing. We take 23 people, put them all in Tier 4 and 5 warlock gear with equivalent KZ/SSC/TK drops in the off spots, and trial them to DPS in our raids for Vashj.

2 of them spec demo, let their felguard LOLdps, and spam shadowbolt, and they think they are awesome ? end result ? 800-900 DPS.
11 of them understand individual damage mechanics a bit more, spec SM ruin, sac the bitch, and spam shadowbolt ? end result, anywhere from 900 to 1100 DPS, with the better ones at the lower end, because they spend time managing aggro. The ones at 1100 never make it out of phase II.
5 of them are some bullshit affliction spec with bullshit gems, and horrible hit and crit, barely staying above the tanks., end result 350-600 DPS.
3 of them, I never even see a comment on, don?t make it past the very first stage of the trial, because they are completely confused when it comes to things like banishing Hydross adds, and AoE on morogrim was shadowbolting the adds one by one.
1 of them specs affliction, has the proper itemization, and is able to pump out a solid 1200-1400 DPS for the Vashj fight with excellent DoT rotation, and the ability to apply those DoT?s on multiple targets. Gets an invite. (was in mostly T4/KZ gear, so that wasn't helping him either)

1 out of 23 was able to make the cut required to help the group as a whole progress. The other 22 will likely never see BT/Hyjal. Considering we are the among the top alliance progressed guild on the server (2nd to kill Illidan alliance side), we generally only review the strongest apps, so we?re pulling from what is supposedly the better players.

If mindless button mashing was the actual key here, I have a hard time believing so many people can?t make the cut. What I see in the end is that varying abilities and skill play-wise with tanigible differences in the end result, and defined limitations on ability to see and get to content based off of that.

I?ve never seen any content in gemstone that is unavailable to people who have put the time in. yes, you may die more often if you just button mash, but there is no restricted content (that I know of) that will never be achievable because the player isn?t good enough.

The question I pose back is that I?ve now hunted in OTF with a completely unfamiliar class using 3 buttons, and a familiar one (albeit rusty) with 4 buttons, and was able to do it with at least a moderate level of success. How many of the people here commenting on how ?easy? and ?button mashing? endgame WoW content is have done, say Vashj, RoS, KT, Shahraz, A?lar, Archimonde, Teron? What level of experience do YOU have to ?know? how ?easy? and ?redundant? and ?button-mashing? it is?
________
Lamborghini Marco Polo History (http://www.lamborghini-tech.com/wiki/Lamborghini_Marco_Polo)

[oldanforgotten]

And to nip the question in the ass before it arrives, most of those applicants were from guilds that had already downed Vashj, so them "having to learn the fight" had little do with the differences in performance.
________
TITLE INSURANCE DICUSSION (http://www.insurance-forums.org/title-insurance/)

[Methais]

Again, that is only part of the equation. Yes, 25 people need to pay attention vs. 1, which in truth, is the largest element of difficulty in most encounters, but some of them actually require 25 solid players.

I can’t count the number of apps we have had from hunters, locks, mages, and rogues where they were like “I’m always #1 in DPS in my guild”, or “I’m in merc glad gear, I can can DPS LOL”, only to watch them put out some horrible number between 350 and 800 DPS. If your raid is filled with those level of players, you’re never getting past Gruul. Any dumb fuck can get the welfare epics over time, and think they are great, the only real measure outside of raiding for general levels of skill would be in the team ratings, and its a different type of skill altogether.

Here’s the thing. We take 23 people, put them all in Tier 4 and 5 warlock gear with equivalent KZ/SSC/TK drops in the off spots, and trial them to DPS in our raids for Vashj.

2 of them spec demo, let their felguard LOLdps, and spam shadowbolt, and they think they are awesome – end result – 800-900 DPS.
11 of them understand individual damage mechanics a bit more, spec SM ruin, sac the bitch, and spam shadowbolt – end result, anywhere from 900 to 1100 DPS, with the better ones at the lower end, because they spend time managing aggro. The ones at 1100 never make it out of phase II.
5 of them are some bullshit affliction spec with bullshit gems, and horrible hit and crit, barely staying above the tanks., end result 350-600 DPS.
3 of them, I never even see a comment on, don’t make it past the very first stage of the trial, because they are completely confused when it comes to things like banishing Hydross adds, and AoE on morogrim was shadowbolting the adds one by one.
1 of them specs affliction, has the proper itemization, and is able to pump out a solid 1200-1400 DPS for the Vashj fight with excellent DoT rotation, and the ability to apply those DoT’s on multiple targets. Gets an invite. (was in mostly T4/KZ gear, so that wasn't helping him either)

1 out of 23 was able to make the cut required to help the group as a whole progress. The other 22 will likely never see BT/Hyjal. Considering we are the among the top alliance progressed guild on the server (2nd to kill Illidan alliance side), we generally only review the strongest apps, so we’re pulling from what is supposedly the better players.

If mindless button mashing was the actual key here, I have a hard time believing so many people can’t make the cut. What I see in the end is that varying abilities and skill play-wise with tanigible differences in the end result, and defined limitations on ability to see and get to content based off of that.

I’ve never seen any content in gemstone that is unavailable to people who have put the time in. yes, you may die more often if you just button mash, but there is no restricted content (that I know of) that will never be achievable because the player isn’t good enough.

The question I pose back is that I’ve now hunted in OTF with a completely unfamiliar class using 3 buttons, and a familiar one (albeit rusty) with 4 buttons, and was able to do it with at least a moderate level of success. How many of the people here commenting on how “easy” and “button mashing” endgame WoW content is have done, say Vashj, RoS, KT, Shahraz, A’lar, Archimonde, Teron? What level of experience do YOU have to “know” how “easy” and “redundant” and “button-mashing” it is?

You're right. I should rephrase:

Difficulty in WoW just means being able to adjust your RL schedule to fit your guild's raid nights.

[oldanforgotten]

You're right. I should rephrase:

Difficulty in WoW just means being able to adjust your RL schedule to fit your guild's raid nights AND being good enough to actually raid.


Much better.
________
Bubbler Pipe (http://bubblers.net/)

[Warriorbird]

Neither game is particularly tough.

Americans usually don't tolerate difficult MMORPGs.

[vorlash]

I'd be impressed if I knew what guild you were in I suppose. Judging from the sigs that some people have posted here the WoW population isn't a great sampling.

I didn't get to see vashj or Kael because my server was going through the summer transition when the main guilds were hitting it. Since then the main guilds moved on and the rest are dicking with hydross and Void hogger.

Up until I sold my druid, I was one of the better tanks on the server because I studied the strategies and made adjustments to my play style and gear. Granted, most druid tanking involves mashing buttons as rage comes in, but its also tailoring your gear to a situation.

A lot of tanking druids have no clue what their abilities are because they sit in teir 4 and wonder why they get crushed by a mob like Void hogger.

I've had the pleasure to play some of the endgame content offered by Wow, but I never thought any encounter was especially difficult. Probably the most difficult would be Naxx as far as complex well designed fights.

[oldanforgotten]

I'd be impressed if I knew what guild you were in I suppose. Judging from the sigs that some people have posted here the WoW population isn't a great sampling.

I didn't get to see vashj or Kael because my server was going through the summer transition when the main guilds were hitting it. Since then the main guilds moved on and the rest are dicking with hydross and Void hogger.

Up until I sold my druid, I was one of the better tanks on the server because I studied the strategies and made adjustments to my play style and gear. Granted, most druid tanking involves mashing buttons as rage comes in, but its also tailoring your gear to a situation.

A lot of tanking druids have no clue what their abilities are because they sit in teir 4 and wonder why they get crushed by a mob like Void hogger.

I've had the pleasure to play some of the endgame content offered by Wow, but I never thought any encounter was especially difficult. Probably the most difficult would be Naxx as far as complex well designed fights.


There is nothing overly impressive per se about what I have done. 50% of it is having a good computer and a good internet connection, and 50% is knowing how to play. We didn?t clear naxx until after BC came out, having been stuck on the 4 horsemen basically for months (we had 2 tanks ninja?d by other server guilds, and never got solid enough replacements to get the encounter down). Honestly, I would say to this day, C?thun is the most ?difficult? boss to get down for the level and level of gear a group would have, especially depending on the order of who got stomached in phase 2.

However, some of the best designed encounters are the BC ones. The 4 horsemen required a very unusual group mix to get through, in 6 exceptionally geared tanks.
Vashj requires 3. KT requires 2 and a DPS off tank. RoS requires 3 prot warriors/prot pallies just to get through phase 1.

But in terms of difficultly? There is a known skill level difference in players. Some are better than me, some are worse. I?d like to think most fall in the latter category. But I?ve seen the discrepancies. Tanks generating some bullshit low 700 TPS. DPS classes pumping out a whopping 600 DPS, healing classes pumping out less than 1500 HPS. Our raid makeup now, we use 4 rogues. On a balls to the wall type encounter like, say, Supremus, they pump out anywhere from 1350-1700 DPS. I?ve seen the webstats of a rogue that consistently pumps out 1900-2000 in the same encounter. But 1 of the rogues is consistently between 1650-1750, two are always between 1500-1600, and one is always around 1350. They are all good enough to raid with us, but there is still a gap.

Some fights like the ones you mentioned are absolutely mindless. Hydross is a retard check for the transitions and nothing more. Loot Reaver is a fun game of dodgeball. Solarian is now a retard check. KT is a more difficult fight, Vashj is a more difficult fight.

I?ll give you a basic rundown as to why.

What do you do on loot reaver? You sit there and tank him in one spot the whole fight, going for balls to the wall threat. Exciting stuff.

Here?s what you?d have to do on Vashj.
If our group makeup had 2 prot tanks, prot pally, feral, you?d be in a DPS role.
If our group was 2 prot tanks, feral druid, DPS warrior, you?d be in a tank role.

DPS melee:

Phase 1:
DPS Vashj, shift forms to unroot yourself

Phase 2:
DPS water elementals running up the steps. When a tainted one arrives, call it out with the position, kill it, loot it, throw it to ranged at top of steps, or healer on top of steps, shift to caster form for 10 seconds and burn all your mana moonfiring elementals that continue to spawn while you have a debuff. If one gets past you, follow it and finish it off unless a strider is nearby, in which case, alert central caster DPS to finish it off. When 4th core is picked up, moved up the stairs, avoid Strider, taunt Naga off of tank and bring it to Zimbabwe so the group can pick up Vashj when the 4th core is inserted.

Phase 3:
Same as Phase 1, except you will likely have to shift forms to use tranq or a battle rez if one of the tanks gets shocked and crushed.

Tank:

Phase 1:
Kite Vashj to the center of the platform. Use a taunt rotation with the other 2 tanks to ensure that the top 3 on threat at any given time are tanks. If not, multishots will one shot DPS in the group. This is done best by taunt followed by biggest threat gainer, so the next taunt picks up your additional threat. If you get rooted, call for a cleanse, feral charge and taunt vashj, kite her back to the middle. Do this for a minute and 20 or so until 70%.

Phase 2:
You?re the druid, aka the bitch tank. Since you can get crushed, tanking Nagas is not a possibility, since you aren?t capable of tanking 2 at once. Therefore, you and the one of the prot tanks dance around the outside of the inner platform checking for Nagas. Avoid the striders at all costs, and stay away from the kiter. When a Naga arrives, pick it up, bring it to the center WITHOUT bringing it through the caster groups in the middle, since it cleaves on cloth for 8k, (right next to Vashj), and let the tank taunt it off of you. Then, LOLDPS the Naga without taking threat until you hear a tainted core get called out. Then, move to clock position of the core, pop to humanoid, catch it, and use it. Then moonfire the strider or naga for a few seconds until the debuff wears off. If a naga gets called before the core, you have to pick up the second naga, and kite it to the middle again, until the tank can taunt it off of you. Repeat this until all 4 cores are used.

Phase 3:
Similar to Phase 1 but without a set position. Generally, the kite position is moving in an outward spiral depending on where the poison is falling from the ceiling.

That?s not everything, but it?s a nutshell. While there is a lot more to the fight in the end, especially considering the shock debuff, and the dreaded shock debuff on a tank rooted in poison mess, it?s a nutshell. If the kiter was an elemental shaman instead of a lock, some things during phase 2 would change, and in the rare case that we were melee light and caster heavy, the naga kiting in phase 2 can be a real pain. One bad kite and 4-5 casters are cleaved and dead, and it?s a wipe.

I won?t get into RoS, because frankly, the fight can be 100 times harder with a feral in the raid. If any of the targeting or enrages is on you in phase 1, safely assume the raid is fucked, because without a lot of shield block value, a feral will not survive it without some sort of miracle from above.

But an honest rating of the encounters would be like this, from start to finish:

Easiest to Hardest:

Pre-K
Gruul
Void Reaver
Solarian (the old Solarian was damn near KT, the new one is a joke)
Lurker
Rage Winterchill
Naj?entus

Kindergarten
Maulgar (the gear requirements are much lighter than the above, but the encounter itself actually is a decent idiot check)
Hydross
Anetheron
Doomwalker
Doom Lord Kazzak

1st grade
Morogrim
Karathress
Supremus
Kaz?rogal

2nd grade
Leo
A?lar
Shade of Akama
Vashj

3rd grade
Gurtogg
Teron
KT
Illidan

4th grade
Mother Shahraz

7th grade
RoS
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VAPIR NO2 (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/no2/)

[Artha]

You're right. I should rephrase:

Difficulty in WoW just means not having a RL schedule to make your guild's raid nights.

Fixed that more.

[Silent_Willy]

The only difference between WoW and GS is in WoW you get #1 it lasts a week. In GS you get #1 it lasts a year or more. One is fast paced and takes a shitload of time. One is slow paced and takes a shitload of time.

[Fallen]

I think more strategy goes into WoW battles than GS battles. For GS to become more strategy oriented, they need to remove a lot of the instant kills, and stuns over 3-4 rounds. You couldn't induce more than 10 seconds of RT, and there would be a lot more Slow effects, rather than outright hard RT.

Running around one shotting everything, only to be killed when you're locked in a 10 round stun, or outright 1-shotted yourself does not make for tactical combat.