Armor Padding

[dszabo]

I'm looking at buying some new armor and am curious about enchant/padding. Let me start off by saying I don't know much about mechanics, but is forest green brig really worth it? +17 enchant and heavy crit padding, that's -10 phantom damage right? so say you have an average DF of about .333 (for ease, it's more likely a little higher, but I don't know the weapon occurences in the wild) that effectivley negates the crit you receive by a total of 30 endroll. Now if I had some +25 armor that's somewhat crit padded for 6 phantom damage, that's an endroll difference of 18 + 8 for the enchant, a total of 26. that's a difference of only 4 endroll points on the crit table for nearly half the price with the bonus of getting hit less (+8 extra DS). I'm wondering if I'm doing my math or "mechanicing" right so I was trying to solicit the input of the mechanic geniuses I see on here. Thank you!

Ashuron

[Kitsun]

In my opinion, you're probably over thinking the whole armor deal if you're trying to min/max this stuff. Besides the fact that market forces already bring equivilent armors to approximately the same price, your equations might be right for straight AS/DS melee combat but don't factor in creature maneuvers which are typically just as, if not more, lethal.

[Celephais]

You would be better off looking at what has harmed you (in the "recent" past) and analyzing the injuries/deaths you took. If you're a square and you're dealing with lots of nicks then phantom damage reduction isn't going to do you much good... if any. As Kitsun already mentioned maneuvers are affected (by anecdotal amounts), but I would consider the improvement linear (and linear improvement is expodential price increase... because you can't "upgrade" someone crit padded).

Really it's going to come down to what your character needs.

[Kitsun]

What the character needs versus what you can afford!

[Latrinsorm]

is forest green brig really worth it?The secondary market is not driven primarily by mechanical worth. The most powerful force is supply and demand. As such, whether fgb is "worth it" to you can only be answered by you.

As to the mechanics:
Crit padding does not translate into effective enchant. There are at least two areas where crit padding factors in to defense:

1) AS/DS resolution.
2) Maneuvers.

Nobody knows specifically how (2) works, though a surprising number of people think they do. All we know for sure is that a couple GMs have gone on the record stating that crit padding does factor into some maneuvers (for instance, in OTF). To answer (1) requires a little bit of background. You seem to know what DFs are, so I'm going to skip ahead to crit rank determination:

Each armor group has an associated crit divisor (5,6,7,9,11 for skin, soft leather, scale, chain, and plate respectively). To determine the crit rank, one sums raw damage and any amounts of phantom damage derived from crit padding or crit weighting and divides by the crit divisor, then truncates. In formula form:

trunc((raw + phantom)/(crit divisor)) = maximum crit rank

The maximum crit rank cannot exceed 9. The minimum crit rank is determined by (max/2), rounded up. Crit weighting cannot increase a rank 0 crit to any higher number and crit padding cannot decrease a rank 1 or higher crit to a rank 0: crit padding cannot completely "negate" crits. This makes crit padding by definition completely useless until your character gets hit with a rank 2 or higher crit. If your character happens to be a heavily reduxed warrior who never gets hit with a rank 2 or higher crit, then crit padded armor will do nothing for him or her as far as AS/DS resolution goes. (Also worth noting is that research indicates all characters have natural crit padding at the rate of CON bonus / 4.)

I'd also point out for this case that scale is not always superior to soft leather as far as defense goes (though it usually is).

[Stanley Burrell]

Crit padding hasn't been worth it since the extra critical and damage rolls got butchered.

Unless you're swinging an ash black, your heavy crit/damage padding/weighting, and more specifically, your FGB's being randomized is going to suck. I wouldn't even buy a chest-worn that didn't guarantee full coverage with padding as is, which I guess is a benefit of brigandine. Unless you're prepared to know exactly what critter carries which specific weapon and uses X AS-based attack, the change is infinitesimal when compared to something like just upgrading your armor class.

I recommend being a spell class and just using your magical whatsits to make your DS 12901802918290 in offensive, since you aren't a warrior and can then manage a 12901802918290 spelled DS in offensive.

[dszabo]

Alright, very useful info all around, thanks very much guys.

[Cademus]

For a open fighting square crit padding is usually worth it most of the time, especially since minors can cause manuever penalties. However, I have found that a clever script and Massive amounts of first aid (if you're skinning then you'll probably already have this) effectively becomes crit padding in a sense you can just cure any minors in very little RT. Against, maunever attacks crit padding does help considerably, since DS is probably not a factor in manuever attacks.

If you're getting killed by manuever attacks mostly then wearing heavily padded armor will create a difference in the wounds you recieve or even outright save your life. If you're worried about the day to day wounds recievd by normal AS/DS attack crit padding is not worth it in the long run and for the massive price increase, rather maximize your DS.

[Fallen]

As a pure, moving up to Masterful crit padding in cuirb brought my stupid insta-death crit deaths to an end.

[Tea & Strumpets]

As a pure, moving up to Masterful crit padding in cuirb brought my stupid insta-death crit deaths to an end.

Best advice in the thread. Unfortunately your 100 levels of game play experience and the fact that you've fought against every maneuver attack in the game is irrelevant because it is anecdotal (I like that adjective because it makes it sound like you are telling a story, rather than just sharing your experience). If you have a spreadsheet that recorded your encumberance, level, stats, and training at the time of each maneuver attack, I may be willing to listen to your drivel.

Just ignore Latrinsorm, OP. He's on some retarded crusade to misinform anyone that comes here looking for information. In GS4, don't waste money on crit padding for AS/DS attacks. The only reason to buy crit padding (and it's not worth buying unless it's heavy padding-my opinion) is for maneuver attacks. Crit padding works exactly the same in GS4 as it did in GS3 in regard to maneuver attacks. Crit padding does not matter on AS/DS attacks with the endrolls having randomized results (GS4) -- quite frankly, it wasn't very good even in GS3 for AS/DS attacks.

Crit padding works against every maneuver attack in the game.

[Fallen]

Crit padding works against every maneuver attack in the game. >>

A GM, I want to say Mestys, confirmed that most every Physical critter maneuver that does critical damage factors in the same key stats/skills/scenarios, crit padding being one of them. He also said the same for CMAN maneuvers.

Also note that there has been a rash of critter updates, bringing them to BCS. Roa'ters are up next. With each of these updates, the creature's attacks are brought into line with what is the standard. I am positive this means taking the full range of "normal" factors into consideration.

[Latrinsorm]

especially since minors can cause manuever penalties.That's the thing, though, crit padding doesn't turn minors into no wounds (crit rank 0) except maybe for ensnare. The only thing crit padding can do wound-wise is to turn rank 2 or 3 wounds into rank 1 wounds, and if your open fighting square is getting rank 2 or 3 wounds you're doing something wrong.
Just ignore Latrinsorm, OP.It's evidence enough that a) the only response you have to my caveats is to repeat your original statements and b) that you feel the need to stoop to insults. :)

[Celephais]

I really don't understand how people can so easily discredit Latrin and outright say ignore him. He might not have all the answers but he certainly doesn't give out incorrect information, and he actually does do research.

[Fallen]

I certainly dont ignore him. I quote him and store his posts, both here and on the officials quote often.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I really don't understand how people can so easily discredit Latrin and outright say ignore him. He might not have all the answers but he certainly doesn't give out incorrect information, and he actually does do research.

Latrin does sometimes have something relevant to offer to a discussion. However he would secretly prefer to argue about semantics for months on end.

Like when he mentioned something to the effect of "the only thing we know for sure is that crit padding helps against 1 or 2 of the 25 maneuver attacks in OTF because I read that on the OTF board" is just a steaming pile of bullshit. Some poor n00b has to sift through a big pile of feces to get the answer to a simple question.

I've read dozens of posts directly from GM's inferring, implying, and flat out stating crit paddings effects in regards to maneuvers -- and I haven't read the officials in years.

Typical Discussion with Latrinsorm:

Me: The sky is blue.
Latrin: If you are going to make those kind of outrageous statements, you better be prepared to back them up mathematically. And what about at night?

[Latrinsorm]

However he would secretly prefer to argue about semantics for months on end.Secretly???
I've read dozens of posts directly from GM's inferring, implying, and flat out stating crit paddings effects in regards to maneuvers -- and I haven't read the officials in years.I'm not questioning your experiences or your recollections. What I'm questioning is where (specifically) this was stated/implied and by whom. That those posts no longer exist is exactly the problem: by definition there's no proof either way. Should this guy (for instance) really make decisions based on what you remember or interpreted from what someone else said "years" ago?
Some poor n00b has to sift through a big pile of feces to get the answer to a simple question.To paraphrase those WebMD commercials, I'm not interested in people getting answers. I'm interested in people getting the right answers. This doesn't have to do with what you or I personally believe: the only relevant information is what either of us has proven (and given that it's extremely difficult to back out this information, we more or less make due with publicized GM statements).

edit: btw I appreciate the nice things people said about me. <3

[Fallen]

Latrin, you honestly missed it? I could pull it up again. I know I have posted here recently. This was like 3 months ago. Several times now Mestys and others have flat out named what plays a role into maneuvers.

[Fallen]

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=6&message=4591

>So Heroism helps with general maneuver attacks? Perhaps not all of them, but even those that are outside the realm of fear-based attacks? -Evarin

Certainly.

-M.
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http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=26&topic=15&message=2810

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CARABELE
So question for PTB: Will empaths be getting something spell-wise in their own list (preferable) or in MnM to replace the maneuver help they will be losing with MjS?

This is already the case with Empathic Focus (1109).

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team
----
(concerning PT and maneuvers)

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=26&topic=18&message=1334
...and...
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=26&topic=18&message=1337


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It's also a factor in some combat maneuvers.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team


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>>I assume you mean in avoiding them, not using them. Care to tell us which ones?

A lot of creature maneuvers.

= - GM Oscuro - =
Empath/Cleric Team

[Fallen]

Damn. It isn't in this folder, but I promise you, a GM stated it fairly implicitly. I will keep looking. Here is a great folder on the officials I need to start remembering to update: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=2&topic=16

[Celephais]

Typical Discussion with Latrinsorm:

Me: The sky is blue.
Latrin: If you are going to make those kind of outrageous statements, you better be prepared to back them up mathematically. And what about at night?
In that case he'd be dead on right too... this is a fucking game mechanics folder, you don't figure things out by ignoring fringe cases. Latrin won't call your information useless, he just highlights relevant caveats, discrepancies and uncertainties. All good things to have when seeking mechanics info.

[StrayRogue]

That noob still won't accept that he was wrong?

Bad form.

[Fallen]

Here it is, Compliments of this thread: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=23891&page=3&highlight=Mestys

<<<So . . . does crit padding help against all or most maneuvers?

I believe it was stated that Crit Weighting would affect the outcome of CMan Hamstring . . . does Crit Padding help defend against CMans (e.g. charge, bullrush, etc.)?

In general, crit padding will help you with anything that does critical damage. So Charge damage would be mitigated, while the damage from Bull Rush would not.

-M. >>>>

[Riltus]

The question was posted by SARDINUS (Evarin) with Oscuro's reply.



>>Sorry to make you repeat yourself, Oscuro, but is Crit padding and armor CLASS taken into account? Those weren't mentioned, though I thought the type of armor you are in, and the padding for crit driven maneuvers are taken into account in all physical damage type maneuvers.

I posted factors in avoiding the maneuver, not reducing crits or damage. Those do factor in the damage/crit portion of the attack, as they do for nearly all instances of receiving damage/crits from physical sources. Substantially few things are non-standard in that regard.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Empath/Cleric Team

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=4&topic=57&message=173

Oscuro makes it clear that both armor AND padding mitigate physical damage/crits from maneuvers, just as they do from other physical sources -- with few exceptions.


Riltus

[Fallen]

Indeed. Of late, GMs have been quite useful with mechanics questions.

[Tea & Strumpets]

These are quite shocking revelations. Next thing you know, the GM's will confirm that you can attack using at least 3 different commands -- ATTACK, KILL, and AMBUSH.*










*NOTE: This is just an example of another theory I've developed after witnessing some convincing anecdotal evidence. There hasn't been sufficient testing YET to verify my hypothesis.

[Fallen]

Heh.

[Latrinsorm]

Latrin, you honestly missed it? I could pull it up again. I know I have posted here recently. This was like 3 months ago. Several times now Mestys and others have flat out named what plays a role into maneuvers.No, I remember that particular one (hence my initial reference to OTF). I was referring to the alleged dozens from years ago as having since vanished.

If you'll notice, T&S, while each of these posts do state that padding does factor in (as I have been careful to note since such information became public), nowhere do they state that crit padding is the most important factor (as you have maintained) or how specifically it works. Keeping those points in mind, I'd encourage you to re-read the relevant portion of my first post in this thread and try and find where it goes wrong: "Nobody knows specifically how (2) works, though a surprising number of people think they do. All we know for sure is that a couple GMs have gone on the record stating that crit padding does factor into some maneuvers (for instance, in OTF)."

[Haywood J.]

These are quite shocking revelations. Next thing you know, the GM's will confirm that you can attack using at least 3 different commands -- ATTACK, KILL, and AMBUSH.*










*NOTE: This is just an example of another theory I've developed after witnessing some convincing anecdotal evidence. There hasn't been sufficient testing YET to verify my hypothesis.


Don't forget wtrick sattack, tackle, sweep, cheapshots and all the other cman and guild skills.

Your data is clearly lacking.

[Tea & Strumpets]

nowhere do they state that crit padding is the most important factor (as you have maintained) or how specifically it works.

Crit padding isn't a part of any maneuver attack equation, and I've never implied that it was. It's an "after the fact" form of protection that lessens the damage taken from every maneuver attack in the game. It's the one factor that can increase everyone's probability of surviving maneuver attacks, regardless of class, race, or training path.

Really, this is a stupid argument and a waste of time. Keep confusing people with your ridiculous focus on semantics while maintaining the pretense of conducting a scientific clinical trial.

[Latrinsorm]

Crit padding isn't a part of any maneuver attack equation, and I've never implied that it was.Nor did I. The "it" referred to "crit padding vs. maneuvers". "lessens the damage" isn't specific. "Decreases 1 crit rank for every [crit divisor] points of padding divided by pi" would be, but I'm pretty confident that's not how it actually works.
It's the one factor that can increase everyone's probability of surviving maneuver attacks, regardless of class, race, or training path.This is also not something I disagree with. Deriving "most important" from this is what I disagree with.
Really, this is a stupid argument and a waste of time.And yet you don't appear capable of rebutting anything I've said or even pointing out where it goes astray of the given facts.
Keep confusing people with your ridiculous focus on semantics while maintaining the pretense of conducting a scientific clinical trial.Mechanics in GS, confusing? NO WAI!!! :)

[Outdrsyguy1]

I feel like i rode the short bus to this thread, anyone mind recapping for me lol?

crit padding and armor class helps you dodge maneuvers AND it reduces the damage/criticals taken from them?

Other factors in helping you dodge maneuvers are CM, PF, certain maneuver resist spells, being fully trained for your armor, and having no encumberence, oh and of course some natural stats that you really can't change.
That about right?

[Fallen]

Padding does absolutely nothing to help dodge maneuvers, and the higher in armor class you go, the higher your penalty to dodging maneuvers, a penalty that even with enough Armor Use ranks CANNOT be trained away. However, Crit padding and armor class helps reduce the damage/Criticals taken from them.

Also, no injuries, and stance can play a factor, but because of retarded mechanics, sometimes it is better to be in offensive, sometimes it is better to be in defensive. Being prone is also HORRIBLE for maneuver attacks, but that should be obvious.

[dszabo]

Well, that was an interesting read, thank you guys, as I'm too young to be dealing with too many maneuver attacks; I read (from this thread) overall enchant is far better then the padding. Thank you guys!

Ashuron

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

No way, crit padding is better than no padding. Enchant doesn't matter on manuevers.

[Fallen]

It depends. As a pure, especially as a non-runestaff using pure, you can generate more than enough DS to keep you safe even when in prone offensive with a few easily obtained outside spells. What you CANNOT generate is maneuver protection. You can be at 0 encumbrance, no wounds, and fairly close to level of the creature and still get crit killed. Padding helps in that scenario where no amount of DS will save you.

Edited: Hah. Way to sum up my rambling in one line, hobbit.

[Celephais]

Clearly he took the context of "what is good for you" and the fact that he isn't facing manuevers and *bum da da bum* deduced that enchant is more important!

I would call that a perfectly fair assessment. It might not be the best investment, but if you're not looking ahead (or have other plans for the future) then yes absolutely go with enchant.