Lance vs. Maul

[senorgordoburro]

It seems that a lance has the highest DF and pretty hig AvD across the spectrum of armor classes, but the maul is crush only.

For pure killing power, which weapon would you all reccomend? Neither of these weapons can be forged either correct?

Thanks
-Matt

[Silvanostar]

lance and maul glyphs were never released, so no they cannot be forged.

psinet seems to be down so i can only get the df values of the lance, and a perfect awl pike is superior in all the armor classes except skin when compared to a lance.

the appeal of mauls besides being only crush is the lower base rt compared to a lance/awl-pike.

for professions with access to precision, damage type might not matter as much since you can crush with them. If your agi/dex isn't high, I'd say go with a maul. If you can get your agi/dex high enough to get a managable rt with a lance, I'd say go for a perfect or even a superior awl pike.

[Latrinsorm]

Mauls are superior for crit killing. Lances are superior for blood killing.

[senorgordoburro]

Ok, thanks for the help on this. I was just looking on Krakii and it only had the DF's of the standard items, none of the ones with the forging bonus.

[Drew]

If you are going to ambush, maul, if you are going to swing/haste-swing, lance. Mattocks can be forged which are substantially the same as mauls just a little better on brig and a little worse on plate.

[Androidpk]

Are the glyphs for the maul and lance ever going to be released or is that something Simu doesn't ever intend to ?

[Jayvn]

Mauls just fucking rock in general... granted we all know the killing power of a lance... but c'mon.. A giant fucking hammer>a long pointy stick.. plus just sit and picture a dwarf with a lance.. vs a dwarf with an awesome fucking maul.
Although I could picture an elf skipping/charging with a lance vs smashing shit with a maul....

[Donquix]

Are the glyphs for the maul and lance ever going to be released or is that something Simu doesn't ever intend to ?

I wish they would. Devs have said that they'd like to update the artisan system, i would love if they just released all the glyphs, especially these two.

If they would just release all the weapon bases, and some way to alter the the noun of crafted weapons to any of their approved names (i.e. sledgehammer instead of maul, shillelagh instead of cudgel, etc.) I would be ecstatic.

[mgoddess]

Anyone actually have DF's for mauls? I've got the AvD's for them, but I seem to be missing their DF's...

(And can someone remind me what the bonuses are on the different levels of forged weapons? I don't have that down anywhere either, which is bugging me.)

[Cademus]

Perfect Awl-Pike is the best weapon in terms of DF in the game. It is also the best for aiming, and without crit weighting and 10x needs the lowest endroll to crit kill over any weapon...including a 10x claidh (you might not believe that but try it out). The only downside is that you need over 100 ranks in ambush and bonding and max CM to actually aim the awlpike with any consistency...to the eye you may need a lot more.

[Donquix]

Anyone actually have DF's for mauls? I've got the AvD's for them, but I seem to be missing their DF's...

(And can someone remind me what the bonuses are on the different levels of forged weapons? I don't have that down anywhere either, which is bugging me.)

Maul .550 | .425 | .425 | .375 | .300 | 7 | C | 60/145

bonus for perfect is +3 AvD and +6% DF

[mgoddess]

bonus for perfect is +3 AvD and +6% DF

Thanks for the maul DF's.

So, the bonus on a superior is... wait, nevermind me. The power of Krakiipedia wins.

[thefarmer]

I'll take my perfect 4x awl-pike and my +20DF%+(Paladin) over this 8x lance I'm borrowing.

[Drew]

Maul .550 | .425 | .425 | .375 | .300 | 7 | C | 60/145

bonus for perfect is +3 AvD and +6% DF


Except there's no maul glyph. That's generally why I compare a superior/perfect mattock to a regular maul.

[senorgordoburro]

Can someone put up the DF's and AvD's of the perfect awl-pike. I can only find the stats for regular one on Krakii. Also, if person that can forge a perfect awl-pike could contact me I would be interested in hiring you.

-Matt

[Drew]

Add +3 to each AvD, multiply 6% on each DF and you'll have it.

[Latrinsorm]

It is also the best for aimingThis is untrue for the reasons you note: it's significantly harder to aim for the eye with a base 9 weapon than to aim for the head with a base 7 weapon. Further, it's impossible to aim a base 9 weapon in 6 seconds without enhancives.
and without crit weighting and 10x needs the lowest endroll to crit kill over any weaponWhile this is true, you need to generate a rank 7 crush to the eye to garner a death crit. You could get a 20000 endroll hit with an awl-pike and have a worse chance to crit kill than with a maul (although I doubt anything has the more than 7000 health required to survive such a hit).

Endroll to endroll (accounting for AvD differences), the awl-pike will have a higher crit kill percentage early on; however, it maxes out at (1 - 2/5 * crush rate), whatever the crush rate is. Also worth noting is that rank 9s are easily obtainable with mauls at least up through rigid leather.

Hence, mauls are superior for crit killing. :)

[Dwarven Empath]

I like the maul.

>amb orc head
You swing a zorchar studded vultite maul at a lesser burrow orc!
AS: +432 vs DS: +119 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +28 = +376
... and hit for 167 points of damage!
Incredible blast shatters head into a red spray.
The lights in a lesser burrow orc's eyes dim and finally go out.




I'd show hits on constructs but I'm in the landing at the moment.

Medi...

[Cademus]

This is untrue for the reasons you note: it's significantly harder to aim for the eye with a base 9 weapon than to aim for the head with a base 7 weapon. Further, it's impossible to aim a base 9 weapon in 6 seconds without enhancives.While this is true, you need to generate a rank 7 crush to the eye to garner a death crit. You could get a 20000 endroll hit with an awl-pike and have a worse chance to crit kill than with a maul (although I doubt anything has the more than 7000 health required to survive such a hit).

Endroll to endroll (accounting for AvD differences), the awl-pike will have a higher crit kill percentage early on; however, it maxes out at (1 - 2/5 * crush rate), whatever the crush rate is. Also worth noting is that rank 9s are easily obtainable with mauls at least up through rigid leather.

Hence, mauls are superior for crit killing. :)

This depends on your hunting style, personally for a warrior at least hunting is about balancing killing power and survivability. So really, its trying to min max your AS and DS at the long and short of it everything else being equal. With an awl-pike you can sit in stance neutral or even guard and still end up with eye crit kills fairly frequently with good ambush training, with a maul you'll still need to be in stance O or advance to get those guaranteed headshot kills. Plus perfect awl-pikes stun and deal a heck of a lot more damage when they miss relative to a maul or a perfect mattock (which is slightly better).

[Latrinsorm]

The initial topic was on "pure killing power", but let's consider defense as well.

Warriors don't generally rely on DS except in the early levels (at which time nobody's going to be able to aim anything heavier than a dagger anyway). In the few cases where higher DS is desireable, reaction time is far more crucial than raw DS, and again the awl-pike is going to be at least a second slower than the maul and in most cases two seconds.

Putting all that aside, an awl-pike from stance guarded can't compete with a maul from stance offensive. A character at level 50 (for instance) will lose 80 or so AS going to guarded from weapon skill alone: this discrepancy makes the awl-pike universally inferior. Even going to neutral only allows the awl-pike to edge out the maul against chain and plate, and this situation only worsens for the awl-pike as levels (and therefore skill) increase.

As far as doing more raw damage when a miss occurs (or all the time, really), yeah, but it's not a significant difference except against rigid leather. As far as stunning more, probably, but who cares? Everything breaks stuns.

[Cademus]

Actually a discrepency of 80 AS is about the difference between the thresholds for crit killing head with mattock/maul and crit killing eye with awl-pike.

[senorgordoburro]

Are these just examples or does a polearm using warrior usually have to stay in a lower stance at higher levels, while the maul user can stay offensive?

[Cademus]

Why would there be a difference? What it's stating is that with an awl-pike you can stay at a lower stance and still hit their to-kill crit thresholds while with a maul the threshold is higher. Albeit since a awl-pike is not 100% puncture (About 80/20) you'll always have a chance of not crit killing when hitting those min thresholds. However,the chance is small and the much added EBP plus DS far outweighs any small percentage of not killing outright...because essentially the critter is out of the fighting when that happens.

[Drew]

So you have an 80% chance of getting a crit kill with the awl-pike if you get past the crit threshold, but what are the chances of hitting the eye? From open aiming. With an awl-pike. I haven't researched that particular question but I've done a lot of research on aiming and I can tell you that it won't be high, especially before cap. And if you are hunting at cap with a style that means you need to hunt in a higher stance you are doing something wrong IMO. If the critter has the ability to swing at you it definitely has the ability to cast at you and that the real worry. I think what Cademus is talking about (hunting in a higher stance) is more viable below level 50 but you're aiming will be saliently awful then.

[Latrinsorm]

Actually a discrepency of 80 AS is about the difference between the thresholds for crit killing head with mattock/maul and crit killing eye with awl-pike.Only vs. plate. Vs. lower armor groups the awl-pike gets obliterated. Math to follow:
Vs. skin:
.550 to .636 DF, maul has 13 natural AvD advantage + 80 psuedoAvD.
The awl-pike requires a 32 success margin to generate 20+ raw damage (4+ crit rank). The maul generates a rank 13 crit there (which is truncated at rank 9 which is a guaranteed kill).

Vs. soft:
.425 to .583, again 13 natural AvD advantage.
Awl-pike: 42 success margin. Maul has a rank 9 crit.

Vs. rigid:
.425 to .610, 6 natural.
Awl-pike: 46 success margin, maul has a rank 8 crit (75% chance of crit kill).

Vs. chain:
.375 to .477, 4 natural.
Awl-pike: 76 success margin, maul has a rank 6 crit (50% chance of crit kill).

Note that for this situation, the maul would be a better killer even if the awl-pike had a 100% chance to puncture.

Vs. plate it's fairly even:
.300 to .371, 1 natural.
Awl-pike: 119 success margin, maul has a rank 5 crit (33% chance). Note again that the maul would be equal if the awl-pike had 100% puncture, which it doesn't, therefore the maul is still superior.

60 AS makes the awl-pike superior vs. plate and competitive vs. chain, but it's not close with 80 AS.

[Cademus]

Maul: Rank 5 for a Crit kill to the head.

Awl-pike: Rank 4 For a eye crit kill.

For a guaranteed crit kill for a maul you need a rank 9 (9/2 -1=5) And for the awl-pike (Rank 7, although awl-pikes crush 20% of the time so it's not truly guaranteed but rather 85% guaranteed, and it's 85% and not 80% flat because even at rank 7 crush to the eye there is a 25% chance that it still crit kills)

Therefore, against Skin armor...

Maul would need (45+55)/.550= 181 Endroll needed for 100% crit kill

Awl-Pike (35+63)/.636 = 154 Endroll for 85% crit kill.

Since the Maul has a AvD of 31 and Perfect Awl has AvD of 18 you have a difference in ER of 13 in the Maul's favor. Thus, counting in AvD's you get.

Final: 150 Maul Vs. 136 for Awl-Pike. However, when the endrolls needed for a crit kill are this low... who cares? So lets go up the armor scale.

Scale:

Maul: (42+ 63)/.425 = 247 - 44 AvD = 203 ER needed for 100% crit kill

Awl-Pike: (61+ 49)/.610 = 180 - 38 AvD = 142 ER needed for 85% crit kill

Now we're starting to see some discrepency 60 points isn't something to scoff at.

Chain:

Maul: (81+ 37)/.375 = 314 - 52 AvD = 262 for 100% Crit kill

Awl-Pike: (63+47)/.477 = 230- 48 AvD = 182 for 85% Crit Kill

A discrepency of 80 points, now I can effectively dish out the same crit attack but now in significantly lower stance (Neutral with Awl-Pike Vs. Offensive with a Maul).

In Plate

Maul: (99+30)/.30 - 54 AvD = 376 End Roll

Awl-pike: (77+37)/.371- 53 AvD = 254 End Roll

A difference of 122 points.

Note: At the higher levels of armor the Awl-Pike will give you a greater probability of Critting even with the 15 % or so deficiency (because it doesn't always puncture) This is because at those high levels of armor the endroll required for that guaranteed crit kill is so great that you begin to depend on the d100 roll to achieve them.

[Latrinsorm]

The whole point is we want equal crit kill chances. 85% is not effectively the same as 100%. Try hunting with cman success rates at 85% vs. 100% and see if you can tell the difference.

[Donquix]

a valid point on the lesser armors, but with a 122 point end roll difference...thats a lot.

I think the biggest mitigating factor is the aiming. I haven't done much aiming with polearms, but i expect the maul is a LOT easier.

[Cademus]

I really haven't noticed a difference between 85% and the 100%. Note even if you get the crush crit, you're still doing this crush crit with a perfect awl-pike so the critter is prettty much out of commission for the duration of the fight.

Again, the only mitigating factor is aiming. Menos has told me that fully bonded, doubled CM, and 100 ranks in ambush at cap he can aim his lance consistently. I would venture to say that in order to consistently aim for the eye with a lance will take 150 ranks or more of ambush with bonding cm etc.

Thus, in that instance the Maul or Perfect Mattock (which is better overall) is a superior weapon. That and it's a second faster. But for getting low endroll crit kills you can't beat a perfect awl to the eye, even over a claid (because the randomization makes the claid unreliable)

[Drew]

Menos has told me that fully bonded, doubled CM, and 100 ranks in ambush at cap he can aim his lance consistently. I would venture to say that in order to consistently aim for the eye with a lance will take 150 ranks or more of ambush with bonding cm etc.

Menos does not hit the eye 100%. Menos is a good guy but he never met a polearm related thing he couldn't talk up.




Since the Maul has a AvD of 31 and Perfect Awl has AvD of 18 you have a difference in ER of 13 in the Maul's favor. Thus, counting in AvD's you get.




If you are comparing a perfect weapon you should compare a perfect mattock to a perfect awl-pike.

[Latrinsorm]

Note even if you get the crush crit, you're still doing this crush crit with a perfect awl-pike so the critter is prettty much out of commission for the duration of the fight. Again, stuns are a) not a reliable means of incapaciation and b) tangential to the topic. The thing we're supposed to be comparing is crit kill percentage, period. The awl-pike with an 80 AS defecit is inferior in that regard, period.
That and it's a second faster.Two seconds for most races.

[AestheticDeath]

So maul and lances glyphs are here, do they overtake awl-pikes and mattocks?

[mrjrd222]

The lance vs awl-pike debate is a good one. While awl-pikes have better DF in some areas, the Lance has better AvD...

Against leather you'd have to weigh 18 AvD against .025 DF, that's a pretty hefty AvD loss, but with enough AS you're going to get max crit anyway, then DF helps more, kindof a tossup here.

Against rigid leather, I think the awl-pike has it, the 4 AvD doesn't do enough to counter the .025 extra DF.

Against Scale, the Lance is superior in both aspects, and against Plate it's exactly the same.

So Awl-Pike 1, Lance 1, Toss-up 2...

All about preference in my book, I'll stick with my awl-pike. (It's perfect forged anyway)

[nocturnix]

Can someone put up the DF's and AvD's of the perfect awl-pike. I can only find the stats for regular one on Krakii. Also, if person that can forge a perfect awl-pike could contact me I would be interested in hiring you.

-Matt

I have a perfect awl pike for sale. PM me if interested.

Lances and Mauls can now be forged :yes:, I am selling the glyphs if you would like to try your hand at forging them just drop me a PM.

[Izzy]

I have a perfect awl pike for sale. PM me if interested.

Lances and Mauls can now be forged :yes:, I am selling the glyphs if you would like to try your hand at forging them just drop me a PM.

You might take a look at the date on that post. I'm fairly sure he doesn't play any longer.

[nocturnix]

You might take a look at the date on that post. I'm fairly sure he doesn't play any longer.

Meh. Regardless, anyone else who is looking for a lance and mace forging glyphs or a perfect awl pike feel free to PM me ;-)

[Euler]

just a bump because all you smart people haven't told me if I should switch to lance or maul (either would be perfect forged)

[Fallen]

I would say get both. When things can't be critted, use the lance, otherwise, use the maul and try to aim for the head.

[Euler]

toooo heavy. Going with maul on account all the strength enhancer gauntlet/greaves seem to require thw.

[Fallen]

Weight shouldn't matter too much. Get a warrior made sheath and you split the weight of both weapons in half.

[Euler]

ya, that is true.

[Fallen]

Training in Polearms AND Two handed weapons is the real issue. Honestly, if you have the points, it is the optimal setup.

[Rathgar]

Wow, didn't know lances could be forged.

By far a 10x Perfect Lance will be the best 'production' line weapon in the game.

10x perfect lance with some GoS action will be equivalent to a 6x claid newstyle, at least theoretically with the formulas we know.

I wonder which of the two is worth more or less? Might be equivalent?

[thefarmer]

hcw GoS sigil on hated foes /= claid weighting

[Khariz]

Not even remotely close.

[Fallen]

Wow, didn't know lances could be forged.

By far a 10x Perfect Lance will be the best 'production' line weapon in the game.

10x perfect lance with some GoS action will be equivalent to a 6x claid newstyle, at least theoretically with the formulas we know.

I wonder which of the two is worth more or less? Might be equivalent?

I doubt there is a 7x Perfect Lance or Maul yet, let alone a 10x. You would have to get it PP enchanted.

[Rathgar]

Not even remotely close.

No, crit weighting is WAY overrated imo. But the basic formulas for hitting certain crit ranks are in favor of a 10x lance versus a 5 or 6x claid. Due to DF/AvD and enchant difference theres about ~ +120 AS bonus for the lance.

Anyhow, I quite frankly dont want to get into this yet again for 1 billionth time. Your weapon values won't be affected by what is said on here.

For Newbies: There are formulas for attaining certain crit rank wounds. Please, plug in the numbers yourselves and see which is better. And remember crit weighting is randomizied either from 0-max weight or 1/2*max weight - max weight. So, factor that in as well.

[Euler]

For Newbies: There are formulas for attaining certain crit rank wounds. Please, plug in the numbers yourselves and see which is better. And remember crit weighting is randomizied either from 0-max weight or 1/2*max weight - max weight. So, factor that in as well.

yeah, but do I use greene's theorem or stoke's?

[Fallen]

Aren't a lot of monsters naturally crit padded, or have their armor crit padded? That extra weighting helps overcome their padding.

[thefarmer]

No, crit weighting is WAY overrated imo. But the basic formulas for hitting certain crit ranks are in favor of a 10x lance versus a 5 or 6x claid. Due to DF/AvD and enchant difference theres about ~ +120 AS bonus for the lance.

You keep saying 'formula' this, and 'formula' that. Paste your supposed math to prove us wrong and I'll gladly eat my words.


Anyhow, I quite frankly dont want to get into this yet again for 1 billionth time. Your weapon values won't be affected by what is said on here.

This has nothing to do with the value of anyone's weapon, but rather to stop the spread of wrong information.

[thefarmer]

Aren't a lot of monsters naturally crit padded, or have their armor crit padded? That extra weighting helps overcome their padding.

^

Plus, as somebody point out on OOC the other day (and I wasn't aware of this particular resistance) some Grimswarm have void resistant armor.

[Khariz]

No, crit weighting is WAY overrated imo. But the basic formulas for hitting certain crit ranks are in favor of a 10x lance versus a 5 or 6x claid. Due to DF/AvD and enchant difference theres about ~ +120 AS bonus for the lance.


Below you will see some shots from claidhmores or claid-weighted weapons (all weapons shown have a full 40 points of weighting). If you do the math on these hits, very few of them could have been accomplished with a perfect lance or maul. Occassionally on some of these neck shots, a perfect maul might have caused a death, but not all of them. The only way to produce these results with non-weighted weapons would be to ambush.

You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a triton radical!
AS: +558 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +52 = +133
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Mighty swing separates head from shoulders.
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
Roundtime: 5 sec

You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at a Vvrael witch!
AS: +473 vs DS: +410 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +11 = +109
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the Vvrael witch's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!
The Vvrael witch crumples to the ground motionless.

You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at a Vvrael witch!
AS: +473 vs DS: +410 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +11 = +109
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the Vvrael witch's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!
The Vvrael witch crumples to the ground motionless

You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at a siren!
AS: +530 vs DS: +484 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +27 = +114
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Slash to the siren's lower back!
Kidneys sliced and diced!
Death is slow and painful.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.

You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a siren!
AS: +546 vs DS: +472 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +11 = +117
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Brain driven into neck by mammoth downswing!
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
Roundtime: 5 sec

You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a siren!
AS: +540 vs DS: +464 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +7 = +115
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
Body pulped to a gooey mass.
Watch where you step!
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.

You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at a Grimswarm orc scout!
AS: +555 vs DS: +529 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +51 = +114
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Slash strikes the orc scout's right eye.
Seems there was a brain there after all.
The orc scout falls to the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You swing a black laen claidhmore at a Grimswarm orc ranger!
AS: +513 vs DS: +440 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +2 = +113
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Vertebrae in neck disintegrate from impact!
Neck sinks into shoulders.
The orc ranger falls to the ground and dies.

You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at a cyclops!
AS: +307 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +22 = +115
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The cyclops twitches several times before dying.
[You have earned 1 prestige point.]
The cyclops falls to the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

An animated Ithzir scout swings a steel claidhmore at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +435 vs DS: +356 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +6 = +115
... and hits for 48 points of damage!
Slash to the Ithzir scout's left eye!
Vitreous fluid spews forth!
Seeya!
The Ithzir scout clutches at his wounds as he falls, the life fading from his eyes.

You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a triton radical!
AS: +558 vs DS: +481 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +2 = +117
... and hit for 22 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The triton radical twitches several times before dying.
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.

You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm troll cleric!
AS: +607 vs DS: +547 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +20 = +114
... and hit for 36 points of damage!
Mighty swing separates head from shoulders.
The troll cleric falls to the ground and dies.
The opalescent aura fades from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The guiding force leaves a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The brilliant aura fades away from a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
A Grimswarm troll cleric appears less confident.
A Grimswarm troll cleric seems hesitant.
The air calms down around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The dim aura fades from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.
The wall of force disappears from around a Grimswarm troll cleric.

You swing a sturdy acid-etched claidhmore at a sand devil!
AS: +326 vs DS: +333 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +84 = +108
... and hit for 80 points of damage!
A mighty hit turns the sand devil's insides to outsides!
The sand devil falls to the ground and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a sand devil.
The very powerful look leaves a sand devil.
The white light leaves a sand devil.
A sand devil seems to lose an aura of confidence.
A sand devil seems to lose some dexterity.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Euler]

you have too many weapons. gimme.

[Rathgar]

(((Max Crit Rank)x(Crit Divisor))-Crit Weighting)/(Weapon's DF) +100 = End Roll Needed

For Crit Rank's 1, 5 , 9 vs. Cloth/Scale/Plate Armor Groups.

Note: Crit Weighting Randomizes from 1 to Max or Max/2 to Max. I'll take the more generous Max/2 to Max.
Also, the Lance will have a +27 bonus relative to the claid against cloth due to AvD and Enchant difference, +30 for scale, and +36 for Plate.

Crit Divisor:

Robes/Cloth 5
Leather 6
Scale 7
Chain 9
Plate 11

10x Perfect Lance w/ GoS Heavy Crit:

Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
DF .769 .557 .583 .504 .371
AvD 38 41 40 39 38 42 40 38 36 56 52 48 44 53 47 41 35

Cloth :

Endroll Needed
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 101
Rank 9- 122

Scale:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 118
Rank 9- 166

Plate:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 193
Rank 9- 311

6x Claidhmore:

Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
DF .625 .500 .500 .350 .275 8 5
AvD 31 35 34 33 32 34 32 30 28 38 34 30 26 37 31 25 19

Cloth:

Endroll Needed
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 101
Rank 9- 124

Scale:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 110
Rank 9- 166

Plate:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 190
Rank 9- 350

----------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Thus, the two weapons are almost exactly the same in weapon power. And I would argue that the Lance is slightly better due to more Raw Damage it is capable of and the consistency of it's crit wounding.

[Khariz]

(((Max Crit Rank)x(Crit Divisor))-Crit Weighting)/(Weapon's DF) +100 = End Roll Needed

For Crit Rank's 1, 5 , 9 vs. Cloth/Scale/Plate Armor Groups.

Note: Crit Weighting Randomizes from 1 to Max or Max/2 to Max. I'll take the more generous Max/2 to Max.
Also, the Lance will have a +27 bonus relative to the claid against cloth due to AvD and Enchant difference, +30 for scale, and +36 for Plate.

Crit Divisor:

Robes/Cloth 5
Leather 6
Scale 7
Chain 9
Plate 11

10x Perfect Lance w/ GoS Heavy Crit:

Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
DF .769 .557 .583 .504 .371
AvD 38 41 40 39 38 42 40 38 36 56 52 48 44 53 47 41 35

Cloth :

Endroll Needed
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 101
Rank 9- 122

Scale:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 118
Rank 9- 166

Plate:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 193
Rank 9- 311

6x Claidhmore:

Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
DF .625 .500 .500 .350 .275 8 5
AvD 31 35 34 33 32 34 32 30 28 38 34 30 26 37 31 25 19

Cloth:

Endroll Needed
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 101
Rank 9- 124

Scale:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 110
Rank 9- 166

Plate:
Rank 1- 101
Rank 5- 190
Rank 9- 350

----------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Thus, the two weapons are almost exactly the same in weapon power. And I would argue that the Lance is slightly better due to more Raw Damage it is capable of and the consistency of it's crit wounding.

No. No. No. Are you serious?

This chart does not even take crit-weighting into account.

What your chart is comparing is basically the Lance BASE and the Claidhmore BASE. Your chart neglects that fact that claidhmores have 40 points of weighting.

You see all those hits I posted? None of them, when using a maul or a lance would have resulted in any appreciable increase in damage, and would have almost always resulted in less of a crit rank.

Even on plate armor, you'd have to have a an endroll nearly 60 points higher just to EQUAL the crit-potential of a claidhmore. I trust that you understand why.

That said, it's worth noting that which weapon to use is definitely based on everyone's particular circumstances. This is why I always go out of my way to show young warriors the power of a maul. If your AS is greatly exceeding your opponent's DS and you are getting mega-endrolls, why wouldn't you use a maul or a lance? You are always going to hit the crit-threshold anyway, and you'll get to see higher damage numbers as a aesthetic bonus. But if you are barely hitting something, getting endrolls of under 180, I see no reason to not use a claidhmore. You'll almost always get a better hit (critical wise).

So yeah, there are circumstantial aspects to this argument, but it drives me nuts to see people comparing apples to oranges and thinking that they are correct.

[Rathgar]

First,reread the formulas carefully, all those calcs integrated the crit weighting of Max/2 to Max or 30 points average of weighting as I stated.

If I didn't the claidhmore numbers would be in the high one hundreds for cloth and astronomically high for plate,probably500+.

However, I can understand your point if you are just barely
hitting your opponent and I mean JUST BARELY. Like if I can't go over say 110 or so even if you roll 100's. Then yes the claidhmore would be better in those situations.

[Khariz]

First,reread the formulas carefully, all those calcs integrated the crit weighting of Max/2 to Max or 30 points average of weighting as I stated.

If I didn't the claidhmore numbers would be in the high one hundreds for cloth and astronomically high for plate,probably500+.

However, I can understand your point if you are just barely
hitting your opponent and I mean JUST BARELY. Like if I can't go over say 110 or so even if you roll 100's. Then yes the claidhmore would be better in those situations.

Gotcha, I just think you are slightly wrong.

I think a claidhmore is better in every situation unless your endrolls will be consistently more than 60 higher with a lance, and above 200+. Granted it's much easier to have a 7x lance than a 4x claid, so you make up for a lot of that right there.

It's really easy to get sidetracked in these conversations too. Usually when people sit down to ponder this they are forgetting that we have many independant factors:

1. Damage Factor
2. AvD
3. Endroll
4. Weighting
5. Damage type versus body area

etc etc etc.

You and I are both guilty mixing some of these together sometimes and taking facts for granted. My basic posture is that if endrolls are the same, a claidhmore generally wins on the critical front. Keep in mind though, that such "truth" is highly dependant on what area of the body is struck and what type of damage is being dealt.

If you swing a claidhmore at a head/neck and get a crush hit, you only need a rank 5 to kill. You will ALMOST ALWAYS get a rank 5 crit with a claidhmore, and this almost always kill on a head/neck hit. (Which is why I love my claid-weighted mattock, as it only crushes and is much easier to aim, and so I basically always kill).

Same with a lance to an eye/neck, etc.

So, while it's easier to do more damage with a maul/lance, you don't make up for what you gain from the crit weighting potential unless for a combination of reasons you are getting endrolls of 60+ higher than you would with a claidhmore. Especially if you are just open/random swinging both.

If you swing a 200+ endroll 90% of the time (or 300+ like I do in the Nelemar Temple), there's no reason to use a claidhmore over a maul/lance, unless you still want to see silly crits when the mob turtles up.

[Rathgar]

To be frank, I would just call it even or a draw between the a 10x perfect lance w/GoS or heavy crit weighting equiv and a 6x claid just on the basis of mechanics.

There might be some preferences between the two but you also got to remember a 10x perfect lance w/heavy crit weighting is probably roughly around the same value as a 6x claid? perhaps slightly less.

So, you have to take into account, and probably the GMs have taken this to account. To forge a perfect lance and get it to 7x through a wiz and slap on 8x,9x,10x through premie points, then find a merchant to heavy crit weight ontop of all that or join Sunfist and just hunt Grimswarm. Plus remember the massive amount of time investment to get a weapon like that,even though high enchant claids are ultra rare they still exist, a normal perfect lance probably doesn't even exist right now.

I mean for practical purposes a 6x Claid might be way better just by the fact that it's there and attainable right now and not just some theoretical fantasy.

[Khariz]

I'll admit that if there were a 10x perfect lance, it'd make me consider switching to polearms if I weren't a giantman.

Also...if anyone ever makes a 10x perfect maul...let me know, I'll make it worth your while.

Hell, let me know if you make a 7x perfect maul and I'll make it worth your while. I'm not gonna mess with 4x ones.

[Khariz]

I just found this in my logs, and posted it elsewhere in response to some goofing around, but it seemed fitting for this thread as well, while we are talking about weighting:

[Upper Dragonsclaw, Boulder]
The crest of the towering boulder affords a good view of the surrounding countryside. To the north, you see the dense forests of the Lower Dragonsclaw. Looking northeast, the verdant grasslands sprawl down towards the coast. Gazing southward at the slopes, in the distance you see the snow-covered summits of the Dragonsclaw mountain range, shrouded in perpetual mist. You also see the Madmountan disk.
Also here: Renowned Lady Sraven, Michaelous, Ardyss who is lying down
Obvious paths: down
J>grin
You grin.
J>
Michaelous swings a ruby-hilted blue vultite claidhmore at Sraven!
AS: +184 vs DS: +490 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +20 = -244
A clean miss.
J>
Sraven asks, "I guess we going?"
J>
Sraven appears to be focusing her thoughts while chanting softly...
J>
Sraven gestures at you.
With intense look of concentration, a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward you from Sraven!
CS: +503 - TD: +331 + CvA: -21 + d100: +45 - +5 == +191
Warding failed!
You shudder with severe convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop your body.
You are crushed for 65 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to your right arm breaking tendons and bone!
You are stunned for 5 rounds!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to your left eye pops it!
!SJ>cman surge
You are still stunned.
!SJ>ber
Everything around you turns red as you work yourself into a berserker's rage!
!SJ>
Sraven appears to be focusing her thoughts while chanting softly...
!SJ>stance off
Sraven gestures at Michaelous.
As an intense look of concentration crosses Sraven's face, a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward Michaelous!
CS: +503 - TD: +345 + CvA: -21 + d100: +61 - +5 == +193
Warding failed!
Michaelous shudders with severe convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop his body.
Michaelous is crushed for 65 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to left arm breaks it!
He is stunned!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to right hand breaks it!
!SJ>
You are still stunned.
!SJ>
Focusing on your bloodlust, you shake yourself out of the stun!
The redness fades from the world and you begin to breathe harder.
!J>at sr
You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at Sraven!
AS: +483 vs DS: +490 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +91 = +120
... and hit for 70 points of damage!
Bloody slash to Sraven's side!
Instant death, due to lack of intestines.

* Sraven drops dead at your feet!

The dull golden nimbus fades from around Sraven.
The opalescent aura fades from around Sraven.
The brilliant aura fades away from Sraven.
Sraven appears less confident.
The dim aura fades from around Sraven.
The powerful look leaves Sraven.
The very powerful look leaves Sraven.
The white light leaves Sraven.
The deep blue glow leaves Sraven.
The air calms down around Sraven.
The light blue glow leaves Sraven.
The bright luminescence fades from around Sraven.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Sraven.
The silvery luminescence fades from around Sraven.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
!JR>
Michaelous lets out a loud snarling growl and goes berserk!
!JR>
* Sraven just bit the dust!
!JR>
Michaelous shakes off the stun and begins frothing at the mouth!
The berserker's rage leaves Michaelous's eyes.
!JR>
Michaelous chuckles.
!J>snotrt
Please rephrase that command.
!J>snort
Michaelous says, "We win."
!J>
You make a horrendous warthog-like noise.
!J>
Michaelous hoots.
!J>stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.
!J>
Michaelous turns to you and cheers!
!J>
Michaelous turns to you and cheers!
!J>
You feel fully energetic again.
!J>
The ghostly voice of Sraven says, "Still owe me 500k."
!J>
The dully illuminated mantle protecting Michaelous begins to falter, then completely fades away.
!J>
The ghostly voice of Sraven says, "You got lucky."
!J>
Sraven gives a ghostly chuckle.
!J>
Michaelous says, "Wow."
!J>stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.
!J>
Michaelous exclaims, "Heck of a nice hit man!"
!J>'I'm lucky this is a claidhmore
You say, "I'm lucky this is a claidhmore."
!J>
Michaelous turns to you and cheers!
!J>shea
You put a jagged-bladed glaes battle axe with an orc skull haft cap in your mithril alloy harness.
!J>
Michaelous says, "That thing hits like a claidh."
!J>grin
You grin.
!J>
Michaelous returns to normal speed.
!J>'That's cause it's fully claid weighted.
You say, "That's cause it's fully claid weighted."
!J>'good stuff
!J>l
You say, "Good stuff."
!J>

[Rathgar]

That is the glaes axe +10 Claid weighted if I'm not mistaken... against leather group.

A 6x perfect lance w/ GoS weighting would have a higher crit rank range. In other words,there would be greater chance of hitting a death crit with it. Why?

Because that 120 endroll with a 6x perfect lance will end up being ~ 165, adjusting for enchant/AvD/DF differences. At that range against leather it would be easily hitting rank 9 crits. The glaes axe at 120 endroll maxes out at rank 8.

Further, the lance hits will be more consistent. The Claid weighted glaes axe still has it's crit weighting randomized from 20-40.

But again, even a 6x perfect lance w/ heavy weighting or what have you does not exist in game. It would probably just be cheaper snapping up the glaes axe which would probably be worth a bit more then a 2x claid. A LOT more if you can enchant that baby w/o the GMs fiddling with it. Seeing how old claids can't be enchanted.

[Khariz]

That is the glaes axe +10 Claid weighted if I'm not mistaken... against leather group.

A 6x perfect lance w/ GoS weighting would have a higher crit rank range. In other words,there would be greater chance of hitting a death crit with it. Why?

Because that 120 endroll with a 6x perfect lance will end up being ~ 165, adjusting for enchant/AvD/DF differences. At that range against leather it would be easily hitting rank 9 crits. The glaes axe at 120 endroll maxes out at rank 8.

Further, the lance hits will be more consistent. The Claid weighted glaes axe still has it's crit weighting randomized from 20-40.

But again, even a 6x perfect lance w/ heavy weighting or what have you does not exist in game. It would probably just be cheaper snapping up the glaes axe which would probably be worth a bit more then a 2x claid. A LOT more if you can enchant that baby w/o the GMs fiddling with it. Seeing how old claids can't be enchanted.

See you are correct about everything here, except for doing exactly what I was explaining a few posts ago. You mix all of the isolated variables into one pot, and go "a lance would be better". I suppose that's fine, since most people don't even care about the particulars, and because constantly swinging a weapon will create averages.

Your point that you can mitigate the claidhmore's "betterness" by having a higher enchant weapon, with a higher AvD, and better DF is very very true, but it's a statistical mitigation averaged across all swings. It will won't be "better" when you still get that shitty 110 endroll. And that's the only reason I use claid-weighted weapons, so that I kill my opponent, even when I have bad luck. As I said to you in another thread. I'm all about mitigating risk. I've succeeded pretty well.

A claid-weighed mattock is the perfect blend of AvD, DF, enchant, and claid weighting, to be my person choice for the "perfect weapon" right now (that actually exists). If a claid-weighted lance showed up, I might have to reconsider, haha.

[Rathgar]

I think both sides have some valid points. But I think it's really irrelevant seeing how we're talking about a weapon that does not exist AKA fictional.

I doubt a perfect lance with the specifications that I mentioned will ever get built. If Monks come out in time and thats a BIG if, the trend will skew toward smaller weapons such as daggers, spears/javelins,brawler weapons, and all manner of hurling type weapons.

[Fallen]

It boils down to this: What is the better weapon in each of these scenarios OVERALL...

1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Lance
1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Maul
1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Mattock

Discussions about 11x Claids versus Implosion edged handaxes don't do the general public much good as 99% of people can't afford these weapons.

[Khariz]

It boils down to this: What is the better weapon in each of these scenarios OVERALL...

1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Lance
1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Maul
1x Claid vrs 4x Superior Mattock

Discussions about 11x Claids versus Implosion edged handaxes don't do the general public much good as 99% of people can't afford these weapons.

It's the "overall" part that's a problem.

You can toss out the mattock completely. Lance, Maul, Claidhmore.

Comparing endrolls, the claidhmore is almost always going to win, critical-wise. The other two have a much higher chance for you to get higher endrolls, and deal more damage though, which could also result in higher criticals than the claidhmore's base properties would provide for the same hit. So, I repeat from a few posts back. If the combination of +AS and +AvD you get from swinging a lance or a maul pushes your average endroll to 60+ higher than you would get from swinging the claid, use the maul or lance, as you'll have made up for the crit-potential of the claid.

Note though, that I'm only talking about potential and not actual average critical benefit of the claid. It's going to be less than 60 for the average actual critical benefit. Oh...and those numbers are against plate. For lower armor classes, the gap lessens even more.

For a really oversimplified and exaggerated rule that anyone can remember:

If your endrolls are normally less than 175, you are better off with a claidhmore. If your endrolls are always over 200, you have graduated from needing the crit-weighting of the claid, and can safely use a maul. Those aren't the actual, real breaking points, but you really can't go wrong there.

Toss in extra variables like aiming at specific body parts, or ambushing, and you really start to diminish the need for a claidhmore. Do you know how easy it is for a maul to cause a rank 5 critical (and thus death) against a neck? It's almost silly. That's why when you happen to have a maul/mattock that has crit-weighting as well, you really start to get into the realm of awesomely stupid (which I enjoy).

[Rathgar]

Perf Lance Vs. Perf Maul Vs. Claid

If there is a margin of over 4 enchants or greater between the claid and lance then definetly go with the lance (just the enchants mind you).

So a Perfect Vultite Lance with GoS heavy crit or equiv will be superior to a run of the mill 0x claid that can hit magic critters.

A Mithril Old Style Claid (read as: 1x Old Style Claid) will be superior to a Perfect Vultite Lance with heavy critting imho.

However, if you tack on one more enchant in the same example the lance will be slightly better.

Mauls are not in the running in this case unless you're exclusively hitting the head.

Mauls are superior for aimed shots.Even then I believe a Lance will be a strong competitor with the maul due to the massive increase in DF and if you're hitting the eyeballs and only if you're a capped warrior with max'd CM and ambush. But yeah overall for the generic character Mauls will be better for quick one shot kills.

Claids, I will not recommend quite as much, you don't need the huge crit weighting if you're going squishy on the head, plus the crit weighting fluctuates in addition to Claids having a tendency to do a lot of slash and not a lot of crush... when you're going for one hit kills you want consistency as the key factor.

In conclusion,

If you're a capped warrior with max'd CM and ambush and reasonable strength. A high enchant perfect lance with some weighting or some really nice flares will be the absolute best weapon overall.

If you're not this, I would use a Perfect maul if I insta-kill ambush a lot. And a Claid or Perfect Lance (depending on the enchant difference) for crowd control (read as: Berserk).

Again, all this depends on the enchant differences and AvD differences.

[Fallen]

I'm thinking that while a Claid would be useful when dealing with critters with extra crit weighting, a 7x Perfect Lance is really one of the best realistically obtainable weapons in the game. As mentioned, you can add weighting when swatting around hated enemies, and either a bless, or a flare through the Adventurer's guild should the chance arise.

Start talking about enchanted claids, and the question becomes a bit more blurry. Switch out 7x perfect lance for maul/mattock as is your preference.

[Khariz]

I agree with both of you.

Also keep in mind that Race can be a major factor in lance usage. For example, I'll never use one because I'm a giant.

Speaking of which...I find it silly that halflings can manhandle a lance the best.

[Fallen]

Even with max enhancives you can't get base RTs?

[Khariz]

Even with max enhancives you can't get base RTs?

I'm not personally willing to use the existence of enhansives as a means to reach baseline functionality. I understand using enhansives to better one in areas where one would like to be better (adding weapon ranks, lores, strength, etc.), but if I can't even function what I consider "normal" without even putting them on, then I refuse to use them for that purpose.

With max enhansives, I could open swing a lance in 5 seconds, yes.

Edit: Oh, and seeing as how I own a claid-weighted mattock...it's not even worth the effort to find such enhansives to replace that with an inferior lance. A 7x perfect maul would do just fine for other giantmen warriors as well.

[Fallen]

Bah, well then quit your bitching you overgrown nancy. It can be done. Enhancives are readily available via the Adventurer's guild.

[Khariz]

Bah, well then quit your bitching you overgrown nancy. It can be done. Enhancives are readily available via the Adventurer's guild.

:tumble:

[Celephais]

but if I can't even function what I consider "normal" without even putting them on, then I refuse to use them for that purpose.
The logic there is so full of fail. So hypothetically, you would be willing to wear an enhancive that increased the DF of your weapon by 0.100, but you would not be willing to equip a weapon that was 1 second slower, with a 0.100 higher DF and an enhancive that removed the 1 second penalty?

I can understand you not wanting to be dependant on enhancives, but it's moronic to state you would refuse to use them.

[Khariz]

The logic there is so full of fail. So hypothetically, you would be willing to wear an enhancive that increased the DF of your weapon by 0.100, but you would not be willing to equip a weapon that was 1 second slower, with a 0.100 higher DF and an enhancive that removed the 1 second penalty?

I can understand you not wanting to be dependant on enhancives, but it's moronic to state you would refuse to use them.

Okay, you got me there. Your example surely points out the failure in my own inner logic I've been telling myself on why I don't use certain types of enhansives.

Wanna know the major *practical* reason I don't use them? Upkeep.

The Landing is my primary home of choice. I can't get hunting related bounties in the landing, and so my only means of hunting and staying in the landing are to use Grimswarm Warcamps as my primary hunting grounds. I wouldn't earn enough bounty points to upkeep the enhansives if I had them, and so they would quickly become useless to me.

I'm not going to change towns, friends, and the way I like to play the game so that I can swing a lance instead of a maul. That would be silly to me. If/when the landing gets capped hunting, or if/when they open that new rift area, I'll consider decking myself out with enhansives when I start earning bounty points again.

[Celephais]

Wanna know the major *practical* reason I don't use them? Upkeep.
MUCH better reasoning, and I can fully appreciate it.

Keep in mind that you can always have others charge your enhancives... as long as you trust them. I forget who, but there was someone who was constantly hauking recharing services. Of course I don't think even that brings a fast enough/powerful enough lance into the realm that it would make you worth training and buying it.

[Stretch]

Erm...that used to be correct. We have Perfect lances now. wakey wakey.

Cademus posted that on 10/2007. Lance glyphs didn't come out until a few months ago.

[Khariz]

Cademus posted that on 10/2007.

I figured that out and deleted it!

Edit: I forgot we resurrected an ancient thread.

[Fallen]

Well, a point of fact is that the adventurer's guild badges themselves can ONLY be charged by their owner.

[Celephais]

Did not know that, but I stick by the spirit of my post.

[Rathgar]

If you throw in RT of the lance and you want to factor in one shot head kills then the situation changes.

I stand by my original assessment that Lances are the absolute best weapon to berserk multi kill short of getting a high enchant claid (read as: 5x or above).

The reason I said that lances are the overall best is because I'm assuming we're talking about a capped warrior here. If thats the case then hitting the eye with a lance would be best in my opinion (I found lances to be 75% punct all the time) and you only need a rank 4 crit to kill which drastically lowers the endrolls needed (shove that into DS).

Thus,

The best all-in-one weapon: A very high enchant perf lance with something on it. OR if you're lucky a Claid Weighted Maul/mattock (very pricy and rare however)
:welcome:
The absolute best combination: A very high enchant perf lance w/heavy crit (crowd control) + A very high enchant perf maul w/heavy crit (one shot head kills -> If the enchant is high enough could beat out even those 4x Claid weighted mattocks) This combo is probably unbeatable unless you can enchant those claid weighted mattocks higher into the 6x-7x range.

Normal Claids I'm afraid must take 3rd place. It doesn't cut stand alone in either the crowd control aspect nor the one-shot kill aspect due to their awful DF toward the plate range and the massively lower DFs overall versus the perf Lance.


Note: Come to think of it I just saw those claid-weighted mattocks come in at 7 seconds base RT which is pretty insane seeing how lances are 9,claids are 8. If someone can enchant those to say 7x, it would probably be THE best weapon in the game bar none (even over the spirit gauntlet bows, seeing how after ranged changes they'll probably get WTFpwned.)

[Khariz]

Yup, and I think that's why people call Tsin's 9.5x Claid-weighted mattock (whomever owns it now), such weapon. Hard to justify beating that one.

Over the years, if I'm bored and can't find anything else to spend my silvers on, I'll start having mine enchanted past 4x with PPs.

[Drew]

To split hairs, Tsin's isn't claid weighted, he enchanted up the one with 35 points of weighting.

[Khariz]

To split hairs, Tsin's isn't claid weighted, he enchanted up the one with 35 points of weighting.

Hehe, okay. I'm all about splitting hairs, so 5 points of weighting is okay to do that with.