Maneuver attack woes

[Outdrsyguy1]

Could anyone please help me understand how to stop my constant destruction by maneuver attacks?

I have a sorceror and a wizard that are getting up in levels and i'm finding that anytime something does a maneuver on me i either die right away or end up stunned/in rt till i die. It's extremely frustrating. I always stay unencumbered but I still get wasted a lot.

What skills do i need to train? what armor should i wear?

[Bobmuhthol]

You need more CM ranks, especially ranks in the skill being used against you. Pures are naturally vulnerable to CMs; we like to call it balance.

[Tolwynn]

If you're unencumbered and still getting destroyed, take a look at your armor next. Wearing doubles, for example, trained only to hindrance minimization is a great way to get yourself repeatedly maneuver killed.

[Celephais]

Either hunt things that don't maneuver, or kill/disable them before they can attack. Set Ctrl-Numpad to peer <direction> and look into rooms before you go into them, and be ready to attack them ASAP. Since you'll be in soft RT as casters you should be able to bail on a room the second it goes bad. Manage your risks.

[CrystalTears]

Agreed with Celephais. Don't hunt creatures with killing maneuver attacks. Pick your battles.

[Things2Come]

It would help if you told us what you're hunting.

[Outdrsyguy1]

I'm referring to the nasty little maneuvers critters do like boil earth, roat'er tunnel, ithzir stone fist, otf gryphon wing buffet and the pick you up and drop you to your doom thing. I guess i'm embarrassed to not know by now being pretty high level. though it has been painful many times and i've left and come back to the game over the years because of that and other things. I'm mostly wearing 6-8x full leathers with no padding or anything like that. I don't have too hard a time with the CM stuff like disarm and tackle as i usually can live through that, it's the special no visible roll stuff that kills me so bad. I usually only do 21 ranks of physical training or so and maybe 10 ranks MOC and CM. Sometimes the stuns last forever if i don't die off the bat, would more physical training ranks help with that?
oh, and it's really hard to pick your battles when i swear everything has some sort of maneuver past level 60. Or atleast one critter in the hunting area that jumps in the room and BOOM!

[CrystalTears]

Roaters are going to be one of those critters that just when you think you have it covered, you get unlucky and die from it. CM and dodging help, along with not being encumbered. Once in a while you get lucky and land on your feet when he comes up and get a little beat up. Sometimes he outright kills you. Not sure if there is a way to outright not get affected by them ever.

Is there a reason anymore to stop training in physical fitness?

[Outdrsyguy1]

Have i lost touch? i thought physical fitness just got you to max health based on constitution and race (around 21 ranks) and after that it was worth x blood regeneration. As a burgal gnome (stupidest decision i ever made) wizard with 105 health it's not the few health points here or there that makes a difference. it's the maneuver attack (ex. boil earth) that stuns me for 4+ rounds while the world beats on me. I'm not looking to never get touched by maneuvers, just survive them 90+% of the time and limp back to town. I'd like to be sure what is best and how often to train in dodge, CM, ect. because it's crazy expensive for casters.
by the way, i never hunt roa'ters, was just giving an example of the types of attacks. I'm not suicidal, just trying to level lol.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Unless something has changed recently, Dodge training has nothing to do with maneuver attacks. I think I remember THEM saying that they planned to add it, but it's Simutronics talking.

Roa'ters and stone fists --> unavoidable, they can spawn and instantly maneuver. Best defense is not being a pure. Other than that physical training, base stats, and maybe combat maneuver ranks appear to be the main factors other than the obvious (encumberance, armor training, armor maneuver penalties that can't be trained off, etc.).

Crit padding (heavy at least) made a HUGE difference in letting me survive most maneuver attacks. You'll still occasionally get a fumble roll and die, but it's far more rare.

[Some Rogue]

Yeah, dodging still plays no role in manuevers..which is fucking retarded.

[CrystalTears]

I thought dodging helped specifically with the roa'ter deal. My bad. I'm not particularly fond of them, although they do drop nice loot.

[Outdrsyguy1]

So what does training 1x in physical fitness do for you after you max your health?

Sounds like the answer is 1x physical fitness, finding some heavily crit padded armor, and getting more cm ranks. any idea how many you would recommend minimum for a 57 wizard?

[Some Rogue]

Physical fitness is for redux, which you aren't going to get as a pure.

[CrystalTears]

Krakiipedia...

Physical Fitness is a skill that increases hitpoints (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Hitpoint), hitpoint regeneration rate, and is the only primary skill for DFRedux (http://www.krakiipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DFRedux&action=edit). This skill also increases maximum stamina (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Stamina), stamina regeneration rate, resistance to disease and poison, aids in some climbing or swimming checks, and increases resistance to some maneuver (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver)-based attacks.

[Jolena]

Increases your stamina, health regeneration, and if you have enough physical skills to make a difference, it helps with redux (though I'm sure Latrin is going to blast me for calling it redux. )

[Latrinsorm]

Increasing PF will help against some maneuvers (including things like some climb checks). Nobody knows exactly which ones.

In general, increasing PF would also pump your redux and health regen rate, but you're not going to have enough ranks to do either.

Just get as many ranks as you can in CM and PF.

[Stunseed]

1. You're playing pures. Be smart about where you hunt. Even in end-game you'll want to avoid them.

2. However, with the Wizard, depending on your Elemental Mana Control, you may want to utilize 540. Mine has 65 ranks and it has saved my ass countless times.

3. You're fucked as a Sorc, though. Someone's got a sig that states if you just say manuever attack to a Sorc, their head explodes. It's true.

[Latrinsorm]

(though I'm sure Latrin is going to blast me for calling it redux. )lol, "redux" is still an ok term: it's still a reduction mechanism. "DFRedux" is the incorrect term.

[Celephais]

3. You're fucked as a Sorc, though. Someone's got a sig that states if you just say manuever attack to a Sorc, their head explodes. It's true.
At least CoS has a chance of saving you... killing or disabling your attacker (and potentially followed by Spirit Guide).

[Outdrsyguy1]

Alright, thanks a bunch for the help, i really appreciate it. I'll try the PF, and CM (gulp, at 12/8 this really hurts to train in). Got any suggestions on stuff in the late 50's that doesn't have maneuver attacks?

oh, and yes, just the thought of a possible maneuver makes the sorc head explode, it totally sucks.

[Stunseed]

< Alright, thanks a bunch for the help, i really appreciate it. I'll try the PF, and CM (gulp, at 12/8 this really hurts to train in). Got any suggestions on stuff in the late 50's that doesn't have maneuver attacks? >

MTK's and Harbs in Darkstone are 63. You should be able to ward them using CS spells wizard-wise. 908 for the TK's, 910 for the plate-wearing Harbs.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Alright, thanks a bunch for the help, i really appreciate it. I'll try the PF, and CM (gulp, at 12/8 this really hurts to train in). Got any suggestions on stuff in the late 50's that doesn't have maneuver attacks?

oh, and yes, just the thought of a possible maneuver makes the sorc head explode, it totally sucks.

Training CM isn't going to make much of a difference and probably isn't worth the points.

Your best bet is crit padding (heavy or better) if you want to survive maneuver attacks. There's no skill, spell, or stat that will have more of an effect.

[Latrinsorm]

It's probably worthwhile to point out that just as nobody knows how much or what maneuvers PF factors into (or CM, for that matter), nobody knows how much or what maneuvers crit padding factors into.

edit: That is to say, "what maneuvers" exhaustively. It's been stated that crit padding factors into griffins, for instance.

[GSLadyGothique]

I was constantly getting my empath killed by charges in Temple Nelemar. I got 5 ranks of CM and now she survives about 90% of them completley unharmed. Helped tons with being disarmed too.

[Stanley Burrell]

Dodge absolutely helps avoid boil. And vines, I am 99.9-repeating-% sure.

[Outdrsyguy1]

I've tried the harbs, they have some sort of rock spit maneuver and the circles also explode sometimes. Both are pretty deadly for me :(
Never tried the troll kings though. I thought they had like 1300 hp's? Even with 250 mana i don't know if i could fry on those if that's true.
Thanks for the beta ladygothique. i have 3 trains now but i'll bump it up to 7 in CM and get some more PF and some better armor and see what that brings me.

[Tea & Strumpets]

It's probably worthwhile to point out that just as nobody knows how much or what maneuvers PF factors into (or CM, for that matter), nobody knows how much or what maneuvers crit padding factors into.

edit: That is to say, "what maneuvers" exhaustively. It's been stated that crit padding factors into griffins, for instance.

It amazes me that you want to nitpick about maneuvers and crit padding, and then you make an incredibly vague statement like "crit padding factors into griffins". Your arguments are ridiculous sometimes.

Crit padding factors into every maneuver attack in the game, end of story.


Dodge absolutely helps avoid boil. And vines, I am 99.9-repeating-% sure.

No. The only place there is even the slightest chance that there's a maneuver attack that factors dodge into the equation is that new temple on Teras, and quite frankly I doubt it matters there either.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I've tried the harbs, they have some sort of rock spit maneuver and the circles also explode sometimes. Both are pretty deadly for me :(
Never tried the troll kings though. I thought they had like 1300 hp's? Even with 250 mana i don't know if i could fry on those if that's true.
Thanks for the beta ladygothique. i have 3 trains now but i'll bump it up to 7 in CM and get some more PF and some better armor and see what that brings me.

Get rid of the circles by killing a sentinal in the room and letting it decay. Only certain circles are dangerous (I don't recall the different phases they go through) so you can highlight the dangerous circles in a different color so that you know not to fight in that room.

[Trouble]

There used to be an area in the cavern that only had harbs if I remember correctly. I hated MTKs and Sentinels, so I used to go to that area when I ventured into Darkstone. They may also have had different armor there too, I forget now.

Speaking of Darkstone, I used to love the big parties that would happen in that one room back in the day. You'd have like 10-15 people standing around chatting waiting for some poor, unsuspecting bashee or sentinel to wander by. It was almost like the tree spirit groups... man, those were the days...

[TheEschaton]

The Cell, I loved those parties too....s, s, s, w, n, n, n, nw, w, go cell from the place you fall in, no?

[Trouble]

The Cell, I loved those parties too....s, s, s, w, n, n, n, nw, w, go cell from the place you fall in, no?

Well from the Voln drop point, it was Out and then one or two Norths. It was room with west and south exits, I think. It's been a while though so I may be mistaken.

[TheWitch]

Clarification:
Dodging does not factor into CMAN based maneuver attacks yet, ie sweep, etc. That's supposedly part of the overhaul that's been threatened for a couple years now. Not holding MY breath.

Dodging DOES factor into other maneuver based attacks, like roater burrows, con hugs, etc. Get yourself some 618 and 911.

Do not bother training CMAN's, unless you have absolutely nothing else to do with the points. I have, it is NOT worth it. The one possible exception to this is disarm. Anything else is a waste unless you're training it for RP purposes, which it doesn't sound like that's your motivation here.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Clarification:


Dodging DOES factor into other maneuver based attacks, like roater burrows, con hugs, etc. Get yourself some 618 and 911.


When did they go in and add this to the equation? They would have to do each maneuver attack separately.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#dodging

They claim it factors into "many" maneuver attacks. I am still skeptical. I highly doubt anyone went back and re-wrote roa'ter burrows and minotaur charges and stonefists. They stated that there were no plans to add dodge to maneuver attacks until "imaginary date" when they plan to revamp all maneuvers back when I played.

[Celephais]

No. The only place there is even the slightest chance that there's a maneuver attack that factors dodge into the equation is that new temple on Teras, and quite frankly I doubt it matters there either.
I am going to have to contradict you as well... I'm "99.9repeat%" certain that dodge factors into pyrothag shards. Mobility made a huge difference with shards.

[TheWitch]

That was not intended as a blanket statment, IE ALL maneuver attacks take dodging into account. There are no absolutes like that in this game.

In various locations, at various times, on the officials it has been stated that:

CMAN's do not factor dodging. None of them. Someday they may.
Roa'ter burrows do.
Con hugs do.
Krynch rolls may or may not.
Pyro shards do.
Minotaur charges may or may not.

Most of these attacks have other factors, several other factors, including encumberance, level and profession that also factor in and may be weighted more heavily than dodging.

Anecdotally, I've experimented hunting OTF with and without 618.
Dodging adept motes and con hugs is much more successful with 618 running than without.

Argue if you want, I don't care.

[Latrinsorm]

It amazes me that you want to nitpick about maneuvers and crit paddingWhat amazes me is that you would make the claim that crit padding has the greatest effect of any factor when you haven't done the slighest bit of research that could corroborate that.
Crit padding factors into every maneuver attack in the game, end of story.What's really peculiar about your claiming is this is that the only evidence any of us have that even hints at that is a GM statement... yet you're "skeptical" about other GM statements? How does that possibly work?

[Tea & Strumpets]

What amazes me is that you would make the claim that crit padding has the greatest effect of any factor when you haven't done the slighest bit of research that could corroborate that.What's really peculiar about your claiming is this is that the only evidence any of us have that even hints at that is a GM statement... yet you're "skeptical" about other GM statements? How does that possibly work?

I know that you don't think experience matters, but I'm afraid you are wrong. Crit padding is the best defense against maneuver attacks, especially for a pure. You won't accept any evidence other than a signed affadavit from Warden and David Whatley, so you should inform people that aren't aware you are a nitpicking wacko before you misinform them.

When I made my first statement about Dodge, I stated "unless something has changed" or something to that effect. I went and checked the website after reading TheWitch's post, since she is a credible source. The reason I am still skeptical is there have been errors listed in the skill/spell section of the website in the past, and it would be very out of character for Simutronics to make a mechanics change like adding Dodge to maneuver equations without yelling it from the rooftops. I suspect the only maneuver attacks that do have Dodge in them are the ones that have been mentioned on the officials by a GM. Whichever GM saw another GM mention Dodge was a factor in pyro shards, then adds a misleading blurb to the website.

[FinisWolf]

At level 57, and a mage, I would suggest the glacier in Illi. Talk about a cake walk.

I would also back those that have suggested HCP. It's a pure's psuedo redux. Since I got mine, I dumped any armor training, stopped PF @ 25, and don't do any cman's or MOC. My results are a zillion times better. I love living through griffen drops, you get an amazing ride, stunned for 8 to 12 rounds, stand up, and kill em. :-)

Finis

[Celephais]

At level 57, and a mage, I would suggest the glacier in Illi. Talk about a cake walk.
100% agree. The slushes have a manuever that can get you on occasion, but they don't do it very often. And just ignite the morphs and they won't do any of their manuevers... they'll spend their entire lives trying to put themselves out.

[Riltus]

Mobility increases the ability to react to many maneuver attacks as well as providing the defense equivalent of 20 Dodging skill ranks, +1 for every Ranger spell known over 618.

Mobility provides maneuver protection AND dodge ranks -- but they are not one and the same.


The Illoke creatures' Stone Fist spell is primarily based around the standard maneuver roll. Spells such as Mobility (618), Prayer (313), and Dauntless (1606) will benefit you. Ranks in Combat Maneuvers, Perception, and Physical Fitness will also be of assistance. The Dexterity and Agility stats also play a role.

-M.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=6&message=4582

Mestys makes no mention of Dodge skill as a factor against standard maneuver attacks, but specifically includes those spells that add maneuver protection as a separate benefit.


Dauntless is the Paladin analog to Heroism, as far as maneuver defense goes. Increasing confidence and focus, and improving reaction time. I'll get the site documentation updated shortly.

-M.


Prayer (313)

By petitioning the gods through prayer and reverent communion, the cleric gains a modicum of protection, giving him +10 Spiritual Target Defense (TD) along with a bit of maneuver protection. In addition, at 35 Cleric spell ranks a benefit of +10 Defense Strength (DS) is gained. This DS bonus increases +1 DS for every rank in the Cleric spell circle over 335.


Riltus

[Stanley Burrell]

Anecdotally, I've experimented hunting OTF with and without 618.
Dodging adept motes and con hugs is much more successful with 618 running than without.

I would be most interested in knowing wtf can prevent me from getting moted, like, non-anecdotally.

We can all agree that Dodge helps avoid AS bolt spells, jah?

The reason why I'm so certain that Dodge and not CM ranks are tallied into dodging boils and vines (along with level!) Is that I actually dropped CM ranks and went up significantly in dodge ranks and was amazed at how stuff hit me like a third of the time less -- I think I may have even went up like 2 or 3 AsGs and I know for a fact that when I boosted dodge I saw a noticeable change without having to bust out teh mathz0rz to confirm. I am really certain that it's factored in. The three moons tell me so!

[Celephais]

So I guess a better investigation could be conducted using blur?

[Tea & Strumpets]

The reason why I'm so certain that Dodge and not CM ranks are tallied into dodging boils and vines (along with level!) Is that I actually dropped CM ranks and went up significantly in dodge ranks and was amazed at how stuff hit me like a third of the time less -- I think I may have even went up like 2 or 3 AsGs and I know for a fact that when I boosted dodge I saw a noticeable change without having to bust out teh mathz0rz to confirm. I am really certain that it's factored in. The three moons tell me so!

Please spare us your anecdotal evidence or Latrinsorm will bite your face off.

[Stanley Burrell]

K :(

[Celephais]

I think I may have even went up like 2 or 3 AsGs
Because sometimes you say things you don't mean... you upgraded your armor at the same time? Did you jump a armor type class? (rigid to chain, etc) And did you see yourself getting hit less, or hit less devestatingly?

[CrystalTears]

Ruby armor, bitches! :D

[Stanley Burrell]

Because sometimes you say things you don't mean... you upgraded your armor at the same time? Did you jump a armor type class? (rigid to chain, etc) And did you see yourself getting hit less, or hit less devestatingly?

I went from wearing some rolaren double chain to a hauberk. I went from tripling in armor down to ~1.5x, IIRC, and then cut out enough CM to nerf my Stunman. Then I boosted my dodge (and perception a little bit.)

...Then I did a little dance. Around the Teras critters' magical boils. A NON-ANECDOTAL DANCE OF DOOM.

This is me after:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyozdFGJqyA

.

In summation, there is no before because time is an illusion.

Also, I couldn't find any non-anecdotal YouTube evidence of white people trying to do the Soulja Boy = low dodge ranks and avoiding boils and vines. I've been trying for like 12 minutes now, and I want my fucking illusion of time back, godammit.

[Fallen]

1. Stay at 0 encumbrance, or next to 0 encumbrance. That is arguably the best critter maneuver defense a pure can have. Use scroll infusion to use spells like Strength (509) and Phoen's Strength (606) if needed. Also be sure to use the spell of Phase (704) to lighten any heavy objects. Using a locked container will remove the weight of all of the items within the container, this also works for treasure chests.

2. Ensure you hunt with no injuries, and no scars. If you are injured, take the time to move to a safe place and heal fully down. Carry herbs in a locked container, and keep it phased during your hunts.

3. Spells like Mobility, Heroism, and Prayer decisively add to critter maneuver defense. While not a permanent solution, use of these spells off of scrolls or in some cases, cast onto you by others will provide significant protection.

4. Ranger resistance on your armor against whatever element you are most commonly facing will make a HUGE difference when going against such an attack. The most common element used is arguably fire, so that is a safe bet. Next would be Nature, followed closely by cold. Lightning is not available. Steam is. Only armor up to Brigandine can have resistance put into it by players, and only up to VHCP.

5. Being properly trained for your armor, AND being in a higher armor class will help you survive maneuver attacks, though it will come at a slight penalty towards dodging them. Leather Breastplate, or at the furthest, Cuirbouilli leather is the highest I would go as a sorcerer. Due to hindrance, it would be difficult to go above Doubles as a wizard. Consider using a Crit padded helm while wearing Fulls/Doubles in order to provide HCP to your more vulnerable areas. U2U me for leads on where to get these items.

6. Spell tanking is essential in later areas when hunting creatures above your level. You WILL be stacked into RT. You WILL be knocked prone. You WILL be stunned and or disabled at some point. You need to be able to raise your prone, offensive DS above the point where creatures in that area can hit you. A good combination of spells easily found by a sorcerer on scrolls are: 1601, 601, 202, 303, 503, 905, and 507. I will also wear 508 to ensure nothing is capable of beating my TD. Other good spells, though more rare, are 913, 307, 310, 613, and 1119.

Check out my guide on Krakiipedia for a list of spells which will help your defenses: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Spell_Collection_Guide_%28scroll_infusion%29

7. Crit padding. As Tea & Strumpets named, adding crit padding to your armor definitely helps against nearly all Physical critter maneuver attacks which do critical damage, as well as a few of the CMAN maneuver attacks which do critical damage as well. This process, however, is expensive. I wouldn't bother with any level of crit padding UNDER Heavily. You can add crit padding to armor via Premium points, but I would just look into a decent set of armor with it already present.
You may also wish to look into the helmet I mentioned earlier. Know that wearing a helmet with ANY combination of Light, Reinforced, or fulls, will bring you up to the level of Double Leather in terms of hindrance and armor training requirements. You cannot wear a helm in Leather Breastplate or higher without bumping you to Brig hindrance, which is impossible for most pures.

8. When at all possible, hunt in a group. Hunting with someone else, while a chore at times, greatly increases your chances of survival. I would suggest for a pure to hunt with a square. Preferably one that isn't a hider. Warriors and Paladins make great meat shields.

9. Join Col, and use a TON of mana during your hunts to keep creatures pinned down. Frequent use of Limb Disruption, Quake, and E-wave will keep creatures that can perform maneuvers in RT or too injured to attack you. If need be, buy ranger rods and imbed them with e-wave, anything to keep what is attacking you in RT until it is sufficiently disabled.

10. Set up macros for whatever you are hunting. Using PSInet aliases, you can have a set of words used to disable any creature the second it enters the room. Even as simple as putting 708 janissary right arm in the F1 key will save your life.

Hope this helps.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ruby armor, bitches! :D

I floss my ruby armor like it was straight up dental, yo.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I went from wearing some rolaren double chain to a hauberk. I went from tripling in armor down to ~1.5x, IIRC, and then cut out enough CM to nerf my Stunman. Then I boosted my dodge (and perception a little bit.)



I'd say that the decrease in armor penalties is the most likely source. You can't train off maneuver penalties for heavier armors, so even fully trained for double chain, you have a larger maneuver penalty than you would fully trained for hauberk.

In regard to motes, they do more damage to metal armor. The only way to officially (GM said it must be true) decrease the damage that motes do is to wear leather armor non-anecdotally.

[Fallen]

Indeed. 602 doesn't help against motes, if I remember correctly. Maneuver defense spells do help, though. 1109, 215, 1606, 313, 618, and 540. Getting a set of that merchant added Lightning resistant armor would help too.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ah. Makes sense now.

I would like to also randomly point out that dropping cheese in the catacombs makes giant rats appear.

Man, it is frickin' the end of a week. Thanks for the clarification, tho.

[Celephais]

I would like to also randomly point out that dropping cheese in the catacombs makes giant rats appear.
Drop and tap coins for cave gnomes.

[CrystalTears]

Holding a smooth stone helps you earn experience faster.

[Latrinsorm]

You won't accept any evidence other than a signed affadavit from Warden and David Whatley, so you should inform people that aren't aware you are a nitpicking wacko before you misinform them.I accept all kinds of rigorously done research. It's called being scientific, not "nitpicking". Here's all that's required to do this kind of research:
1) Control the attacker. (level, health, stance if possible)
2) Control the defender. (skills, level, health, stance, armor, padding [including natural])
3) Collect data (numbers).
it would be very out of character for Simutronics to make a mechanics change like adding Dodge to maneuver equations without yelling it from the rooftops.Simu makes mechanics changes without telling us all the time. Allanor's DF research, the changes to thrown sniping, etc.
You can't train off maneuver penalties for heavier armors, so even fully trained for double chain, you have a larger maneuver penalty than you would fully trained for hauberk.Hauberk is 2 AsGs higher than double chain. :D

[Outdrsyguy1]

The website mentions that 704 (phase) will be the sorc version of maneuver defense. I assume it has not been implemented yet?

"Phased gear, such as weapons or wands, cannot be activated while in a phased state. Also, the self-cast version of this spell is intended to provide protection against creature maneuver attacks. This portion of the spell, however, will be going live concurrently with the maneuver system overhaul"

[Fallen]

Correct. It has not been implimented yet, nor will it be soon IMO.