Yet another bizarre "tragedy"

[Atlanteax]

3 things:

1) Were the airport police (or bonafide cops) following correct procedure when she was disorderly at the boarding booth?
She was understandably upset/frustrated when the passengerway was closed and the plane ready to leave when she showed up late. Witnesses say that the police hurriedly took her down by force w/o communication. Police says otherwise, and state a video would be released.

My take is that if she refused to standdown (or at least back way from the counter when instructed to), considering the terrorist implications of trying to force way onto a plane... the police acted decisively appropriately. If she had reactedly calmly, I doubt it would had developed into a such a serious arrest.

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2) Should she had been allowed to fly alone?
You have someone possibly emotionally unstable (which incidentally usually would lead to drinking problems - that she is seeking treatment for). Should not the hubby or others be with her to ensure that she arrives where she is destined for?

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3) Circumstances of the holding cell
It would *seem* that she strangled herself with the chain that attacked her handcuffs to the bench, in the 5-10 minutes that she was being left alone (or rather, ignored by officers tired of her tantrums).
I would suggest that the officers are at fault here, as she was evidentally highly unstable. Besides, aren't "immates" supposed to not be able to harm themselves? (ie, not being chained in such a fashion)

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http://news.aol.com/story/_a/accounts-differ-in-mothers-airport-death/20071004094809990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

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Accounts Differ in Mother's Airport Death
By JOHN SULLIVAN,The New York Times
Posted: 2007-10-04 11:40:01
Filed Under: Nation News

(Oct. 4) - Carol A. Gotbaum was supposed to fly directly to Tucson last Friday to enter an alcohol rehabilitation program, but she delayed her departure to see her children off to school, her family said. The delay and the resulting nondirect flight were part of a series of circumstances that led to Ms. Gotbaum’s confrontation with the police at the Phoenix airport, and to her subsequent death in police custody.

The events surrounding her arrest are now under investigation, and the Phoenix Police Department said yesterday that it had a videotape of the arrest itself. But according to her family members and their lawyer, if the day had gone as planned, Ms. Gotbaum would not have been there at all.

Ms. Gotbaum, 45, the stepdaughter-in-law of New York City’s public advocate, Betsy Gotbaum, was originally scheduled to fly directly to Tucson for an alcohol rehabilitation program. But Ms. Gotbaum, who lived on the Upper West Side, delayed her flight because she wanted to say goodbye to her three children, two of whom were attending a new grammar school.

The change meant a connection through the busy Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport. Her husband, Noah, was apparently comfortable letting her fly alone because she was to meet a couple she knew at a stopover in Phoenix, the family said.

But Ms. Gotbaum arrived too late to make the connecting flight to Tucson, the family’s lawyer, Michael C. Manning, said.

According to a spokesman for Mesa Airlines, which operates the flight Ms. Gotbaum was to take, she arrived at the gate after boarding was completed. The passageway to the airliner was closed, and the plane was about to take off, said Paul Skellon, a spokesman for Mesa.

According to the Phoenix police, Ms. Gotbaum began arguing with the ticket agents, insisting that she be allowed to board the plane. The police were called, and officers saw Ms. Gotbaum “yelling and screaming” and running through the concourse, said Sgt. Andy Hill of the Phoenix police.

Sergeant Hill said that the officers tried unsuccessfully to calm Ms. Gotbaum, finally handcuffing her and arresting her on charges of disorderly conduct. But that account is now disputed by Mr. Manning.

Mr. Manning said yesterday that his office had interviewed three witnesses to the confrontation.

“The police approached her, according to witnesses, made no effort to speak to her, calm her or assess the situation,” he said. “Two of them immediately took her to the ground.”

Mr. Manning said witnesses recounted that Ms. Gotbaum was not threatening anyone, and instead was yelling, “I am not a terrorist, I am not a criminal, I am just a sick mother, I need to get help.”

Sergeant Hill said tersely yesterday that the account of Mr. Manning’s witnesses was “not true.”

“The officers did try to calm her down,” he said, adding that the arrest followed police procedure. “When we release the video, everyone will see.” He did not say when the video would be released.

Ms. Gotbaum was placed in a police holding cell at the airport; her hands were cuffed behind her, with a metal chain about two feet long attaching the handcuffs to a bench, Sergeant Hill said. She continued yelling in the cell, he said, and was left alone for 5 to 10 minutes. After she stopped shouting, the officers looked in the cell, he said, and found Ms. Gotbaum unconscious with the chain stretched across her neck. Attempts by the police and medical workers to revive her were unsuccessful.

Mr. Manning also criticized the officers’ actions in the holding cell, saying they should have obtained a medical evaluation for Ms. Gotbaum and should not have left her alone.

“You don’t leave an emotionally disturbed citizen shackled with that kind of potential weapon or device they could use to hurt themselves,” he said.

The cause of death is under investigation, and an autopsy was performed on Tuesday evening by the Maricopa County medical examiner. David Boyer, a spokesman for the medical examiner, said the results of the autopsy would not be released until laboratory results were completed in a few weeks.

A pathologist hired by the Gotbaum family, Dr. Cyril H. Wecht, was allowed to perform a separate examination, Mr. Manning said. He said yesterday that Dr. Wecht would wait for lab results before announcing his conclusion. But he added that a private investigator who also attended the exam said Ms. Gotbaum exhibited signs of “very serious trauma,” including bruises and a mark on her neck from the metal chain.

[Some Rogue]

Yeah yeah, let's blame everyone else but the alcoholic screaming and acting like an idiot in an airport terminal.

[thefarmer]

3) Circumstances of the holding cell
It would *seem* that she strangled herself with the chain that attacked her handcuffs to the bench, in the 5-10 minutes that she was being left alone (or rather, ignored by officers tired of her tantrums).
I would suggest that the officers are at fault here, as she was evidentally highly unstable. Besides, aren't "immates" supposed to not be able to harm themselves? (ie, not being chained in such a fashion)

She wasn't an inmate. She was merely being detained in a holding room, which is different than being 'ignored by officers tired of her tantrums'. I don't see how it was the officer's responsibility to make sure she didn't hurt herself if they properly secured her restraints. If it turns out that she did it to herself, due to emotional instability, then I also don't fault the officers. How were they supposed to know that someone acting disorderly was unstable enough to harm herself that badly?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Blame the husband who didn't give enough of a shit about his wife to have gone with her.

[thefarmer]

I bet she was just trying to escape and got stuck, not trying to kill herself.

[Jorddyn]

I bet she was just trying to escape and got stuck, not trying to kill herself.

That plan worked well.

[CrystalTears]

3 things:

1) Were the airport police (or bonafide cops) following correct procedure when she was disorderly at the boarding booth?
She was understandably upset/frustrated when the passengerway was closed and the plane ready to leave when she showed up late. Witnesses say that the police hurriedly took her down by force w/o communication. Police says otherwise, and state a video would be released.
So it's the witnesses' word against the cops. We'll just have to wait and see what the video uncovers. I agree that she was probably acting a little inappropriately than just a little upset. However I have a feeling that cops these days in airport terminals have VERY little tolerance for any kind of outburst and will contain them if at all possible. Hell they'll look at you sideways if you're not smiling for heaven's sakes.

2) Should she had been allowed to fly alone?
You have someone possibly emotionally unstable (which incidentally usually would lead to drinking problems - that she is seeking treatment for). Should not the hubby or others be with her to ensure that she arrives where she is destined for? We don't really know, nor can assume, what kind of emotional problems this woman had. Hopefully she wasn't intoxicated at the time for her to wig out for missing the plane. However as someone who totally freaked out in an airport once for missing a plane a month or so after 9/11, being afraid and alone AND sick totally sucks and she has some of my sympathy.

3) Circumstances of the holding cell
It would *seem* that she strangled herself with the chain that attacked her handcuffs to the bench, in the 5-10 minutes that she was being left alone (or rather, ignored by officers tired of her tantrums).
I would suggest that the officers are at fault here, as she was evidentally highly unstable. Besides, aren't "immates" supposed to not be able to harm themselves? (ie, not being chained in such a fashion) She wasn't an inmate, she was in a holding cell for ten minutes. There is no way that the cops would know what kind of condition this woman was in to believe that she would kill herself in that short amount of time.

[TheEschaton]

Oct. 4) - Carol A. Gotbaum was supposed to fly directly to Tucson last Friday to enter an alcohol rehabilitation program, but she delayed her departure to see her children off to school, her family said.

I have no sympathy for any traveller who doesn't follow travel guidelines that the rest of us follow. She shouldn't of been allowed on the plane, and she shouldn't of thought that somehow, air travel is her right.

-TheE-

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I realize you are trying to be funny, but she didn't get arrested for delaying her departure or changing her flight plans.

[Clove]

That plan worked well.

Worked perfectly.

[CrystalTears]

I have no sympathy for any traveller who doesn't follow travel guidelines that the rest of us follow. She shouldn't of been allowed on the plane, and she shouldn't of thought that somehow, air travel is her right.

-TheE-She was late. This isn't a big deal. I'm not saying grant her special privileges, but being late to say goodbye to her kids is not criminal. And she wasn't allowed on the plane when she was running late, which is why she had a hissy fit.

[Celephais]

She was late. This isn't a big deal. I'm not saying grant her special privileges, but being late to say goodbye to her kids is not criminal.
Yeah, but being late and missing your flight because you said goodbye to your kids is no excuse for a freakout.

[LazyBard]

She shouldnt have been allowed on the plane, but the police who responded should have been able to recognize that there was something wrong with her instead of assuming she was just upset about missing her flight.

Correct me if I am wrong but arent police officers still trained to assess each situation individually and to recognize signs of mental disorders etc etc.

I think they have to take some accountability for ensuring the safety of someone in their custody. Including people who they feel are just throwing "tantrums"

[TheEschaton]

Wait, what? I wasn't joking. People are so sickeningly self-centered these days and think the world actually revolves around them, that I have no sympathy at all.

She's from the Upper West Side. She's not hurting for funds, she could of waited and gotten another flight.

[Gan]

I've been following this story on the news... There's too many things that dont add up on both sides.

1. Why was she not put in a holding cell/room unrestrained?
2. Why was she not monitored via video or in person with a guard if she was left alone in a cell while restrained?
3. To what extent did she freak, and did her actions require the use of restraints to be applied?
4. Did she wrap the chain around her neck on purpose? Did she have suicidal tendancies since she was headed to a rehab facility?
5. Why didnt airport security just TAZER her ass and call it a day?

[Mistomeer]

I agree that she's dumb and her death is her fault, but if you ever deal with some of the Airline employees at the airport you can see how someone would pretty quickly start yelling.

For example, catching a flight the other day the ticket agent is pretty much calling the woman in front of me stupid for asking a simple question and then tells her that if she asks another question that he'll come over the counter and "tackle her." I can't think of another industry where the employee can pretty much shit all over customers and have them arrested immediately if they don't sit back and take it.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah, but being late and missing your flight because you said goodbye to your kids is no excuse for a freakout.
Well she brought that on herself because she decided to leave later and didn't take into consideration her connecting flight. She had the titty attack for being stupid. I'm just not seeing where she given special treatment or something or saying she deserves to get on the plane. Or maybe I'm not out to villanize the dead woman because she was stranded in an airport. I hate that feeling! :cry:

[Clove]

5. Why didnt airport security just TAZER her ass and call it a day?

Because she wasn't disturbing a town-hall public forum.

[Clove]

Behave in public at all times or be arrested and shackled to a wall. Nice.

I'm just as disgusted with immature people who display an arrogant sense of entitlement and I'm usually pleased to see them face consequences for their childish (and often irresponsible) behavior. That being said, I always thought our tax dollars went to hire and train police to recognize and safely manage such people without them ending up strangled in a cell. I give that office an F.

[Some Rogue]

Behave in public at all times or be arrested and shackled to a wall. Nice.

I'm just as disgusted with immature people who display an arrogant sense of entitlement and I'm usually pleased to see them face consequences for their childish (and often irresponsible) behavior. That being said, I always thought our tax dollars went to hire and train police to recognize and safely manage such people without them ending up strangled in a cell. I give that office an F.

They're not called babysitters. They're police officers.

[Clove]

They're not called babysitters. They're police officers.

Doesn't fucking matter. I expect police officers to be able to safely manage people who are in irrational states of mind. This includes being able to evaluate and determine if people are in such states of mind and require holding at a secure mental health or hospital ward (where they are paid to babysit).

[Latrinsorm]

There are people who are surprised by the suicidal tendencies of loved ones that they've known for decades and live in the same house with. Is it reasonable to suppose anyone can be so well-trained as to discern all potential suicides?

This is all assuming the event even was a suicide, of course.

[Clove]

There are people who are surprised by the suicidal tendencies of loved ones that they've known for decades and live in the same house with. Is it reasonable to suppose anyone can be so well-trained as to discern all potential suicides?

This is all assuming the event even was a suicide, of course.

Sometimes Latrin, I believe you'd miss the point if it were tattoo'd to your dick.

[Stanley Burrell]

What'd be really fucked up is if we spouted an alleged close-watch security beefing-of-upness at airports to deal with those nasty terrorists who may also have suicidal tendencies.

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[Latrinsorm]

Tattoos are sinful. :nono:

Wait, no, penises are sinful. :nono: Tattoos are ok. :up:

[Stanley Burrell]

Sometimes Latrin, I believe you'd miss the point if it were tattoo'd to your dick.

This made me think of this @ 1:34 for some reason :shrug::

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VdSZ4TWumBA

[Clove]

What'd be really fucked up is if we spouted an alleged close-watch security beefing-of-upness at airports to deal with those nasty terrorists who may also have suicidal tendencies.
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With tattoo'd penises.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I can't fault the officers, at least until I read more about the official investigation, but I do feel bad about what happened to the woman. Someone should have went with her-- I don't believe she was married (It said Ms. Whatever, right? Not Mrs?) and she was obviously very sick at the time of the flight but someone who is emotionally disturbed needs help through something like that. Even if it was a family member, a friend, or even someone who was hired to help her. Maybe to the rest of us it wasn't a huge deal that she missed the flight but this woman sounded desperate from the accounts given.

You can't really say, "WELL THE BITCH DIDN'T USE LOGIC AND REASON" (which is true, she didn't) and have it mean much when she was obviously disturbed past that point of using logic and reason. Obviously she chose to kill herself-- I don't think any sane person capable of using logic and reasoning at the point would go that route. Maybe my opinion is biased because someone very close to me committed suicide, but while I don't think blame should be shifted off of the woman I do find this disturbing and sad.

Can the officers be held responsible for all of that? My thoughts are probably not- but it is still an unfortunate circumstance. I hope her children are okay and have somewhere to go.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Wait, what? I wasn't joking. People are so sickeningly self-centered these days and think the world actually revolves around them, that I have no sympathy at all.

She's from the Upper West Side. She's not hurting for funds, she could of waited and gotten another flight.

So people who are suffering mental problems are now self-centered?

That bipolar bitch who can't function because she can't afford to get new medication is being self-centered because she can't control her mental illness through the power of her thoughts alone? Or the person suffering Alzheimer's and needs round the clock care? Because they just can't make themselves remember things, they MUST be self-centered because people totally love being mentally ill. The stigma and poor treatment by society in general is just one of many FANTASTIC perks!

You don't have to excuse the fact that she was out of line- most people who are emotionally unstable do things that are "out of line" all the time. You don't even have to say the cops should be held responsible. But re-read the story and realize that yes, this woman WAS emotionally disturbed and emotionally disturbed does not equal self-centered anymore than you are self-centered whenever you contract the flu.

Also, illnesses affects EVERYONE no matter if they live in a ghetto or the Upper West Side. Like I said- obviously anyone who was capable of using logic and reasoning would not have reacted this way. Someone emotionally disturbed and panicked, and probably terrified out of their mind at being confronted with dealing with their illness, is likely NOT going to just go, "Oh I can catch the next flight." Seriously, does the killing herself with her own chains out of being so emotionally distraught NOT tip you off that this woman was NOT well in any sense of the word?

[Clove]

If instead of being a rich bitch from Manhattan she had been say Cuban... we'd be organizing a march. Nevermind, Cubans can't get their Leggo-men that far inland.

[Tsa`ah]

She was late. This isn't a big deal. I'm not saying grant her special privileges, but being late to say goodbye to her kids is not criminal. And she wasn't allowed on the plane when she was running late, which is why she had a hissy fit.

Actually no, being late wasn't her fault unless it's a short drive from NY to AZ.

She was re-routed and her late arrival was the fault of the airline she was on, the ticket agent that re-worked her itinerary, or the departing/arriving airport.

She should have been notified and placed on the next possible flight to her terminus.

Airport security/police patrolling the airport ... or anyone else responsible for security rarely ask questions. I've been detained for hours simply because I broke out in a run to catch my connecting flight, broke out in a run because the security screeners decide to take their sweet time and frequent breaks, or being very irate at missing a flight due to the above two examples.

We don't know what really happened simply due to conflicting statements, however .... since she obviously wasn't a terrorist or a criminal, why exactly was she shackled and placed in a holding cell without being monitored or arrested?

[CrystalTears]

Actually no, being late wasn't her fault unless it's a short drive from NY to AZ.
Eh, she's just as much at fault for not looking at her tickets and noticing that one arrives right when the next one leaves.


She was re-routed and her late arrival was the fault of the airline she was on, the ticket agent that re-worked her itinerary, or the departing/arriving airport. As if some of them care. Don't get me started on the trip someone had booked for me where the first plane arrived in an airport in NY and the next flight was leaving from the OTHER NY airport. They didn't notice, and I didn't notice. I blame myself for not being more thorough but I don't remember having the chance to see that before my trip. The checkout clerks surely didn't notice or mention it either. I blame Dar.


She should have been notified and placed on the next possible flight to her terminus. Yes of course she should have. But sometimes you have to put on a show to get that kind of service in an airport. Well not anymore now because you get handcuffed evidently.

I love flying, but I hate airports and their staff.

[TheEschaton]

Err, she was checking in for rehab for being a DRUNK, not checking into an asylum for being bipolar. Big difference.

And Tsa'ah, she wa srerouted because she purposefully made herself late by saying bye to her kids. They had to reroute her because she msised her first original flight, the implication being that she was going NYC to Tuscon direct, instead of NYC -> Phoenix -> Tuscon. And Phoenix to Tuscon IS a short drive, short enough at least.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

Err, she was checking in for rehab for being a DRUNK, not checking into an asylum for being bipolar. Big difference.

So you believe she shouldn't have been shackled and put into a holding cell without at least being arrested.


And Tsa'ah, she wa srerouted because she purposefully made herself late by saying bye to her kids. They had to reroute her because she msised her first original flight, the implication being that she was going NYC to Tuscon direct, instead of NYC -> Phoenix -> Tuscon. And Phoenix to Tuscon IS a short drive, short enough at least.

While I agree with CT in that she should have checked arrival times vs departure times, I get the feeling her arriving flight was delayed, or the ticket clerk was retarded (either is likely)

While she made herself late for the first flight, that doesn't place her at fault since she was given another flight with a supposed viable connection.

Had I been in that position while going through smoking cessation, I'd probably raise as big of a stink. Knowing many sober alcoholics, I can safely say that most of them that I do know would have done the same thing while trying to recover.

It's shitty CS, and airlines and attached services are notorious for shitty service ... and then you factor in security.

We'll tackle and shackle a white woman trying to recover and pretty pissed she missed her flight because her arrival flight was late or the connecting flight was leaving early (or that it was impossible to make it from one gate to the other in the time provided), but we won't tazer a group of arab muslims, who have made statements that smack of terrorism, when they plan a protest using "freedom of religion" to cause a disturbance within the airport.

Personal experience and observed experience leaves me pretty skeptical about the actions taken by the police/security.

[thefarmer]

One thing that struck me as funny was her saying, "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a mother and need help", assuming she actually said that.

Did she think that would help? Were they supposed to take the chance that she didn't have some sort of ill-will toward the plane/airport?

[Tsa`ah]

One thing that struck me as funny was her saying, "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a mother and need help", assuming she actually said that.

Did she think that would help? Were they supposed to take the chance that she didn't have some sort of ill-will toward the plane/airport?

Did she fit the profile?

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/071002_071008/071002_gotbaum_vl.widec.jpg

Yep, fits the bill.

[Warriorbird]

I always racially profiled white males when I did airport security. They were the most likely to carry anything stupid.

[Tsa`ah]

I always racially profiled white males when I did airport security. They were the most likely to carry anything stupid.

I hope you at least did it based on demographic or appearance.

Young male redneck (or any male redneck), fratboy, celeb, or obvious trust fund baby ... etc would probably be ideal to set a dog on.

Carrying something stupid isn't necessarily a threat to the airport or people in flight ... I doubt intent exists.

[thefarmer]

Did she fit the profile?

Yep, fits the bill.

Profile of what? A terrorist or a mother?

I wasn't aware that terrorists all looked the same... or mothers for that matter.

[Blazing247]

Blah blah blah, it's just one less crazy bitch in this world.

[Warriorbird]

I hope you at least did it based on demographic or appearance.

Young male redneck (or any male redneck), fratboy, celeb, or obvious trust fund baby ... etc would probably be ideal to set a dog on.

Carrying something stupid isn't necessarily a threat to the airport or people in flight ... I doubt intent exists.

It was more just in opposition to everybody else going apeshit whenever they saw a Middle Eastern or vaguely Middle Eastern looking (I felt bad for what a few Hispanic guys went through) person.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Err, she was checking in for rehab for being a DRUNK, not checking into an asylum for being bipolar. Big difference.

And Tsa'ah, she wa srerouted because she purposefully made herself late by saying bye to her kids. They had to reroute her because she msised her first original flight, the implication being that she was going NYC to Tuscon direct, instead of NYC -> Phoenix -> Tuscon. And Phoenix to Tuscon IS a short drive, short enough at least.

-TheE-

Alcoholism is a disease. A mental and physical one.

Not a big difference.

[Clove]

We don't know what really happened simply due to conflicting statements, however .... since she obviously wasn't a terrorist or a criminal, why exactly was she shackled and placed in a holding cell without being monitored or arrested?

That really sums it up for me. I just don't understand why some 45 y/o head-case needs to be chained to a wall in a secure cell with enough length to strangle herself, unsupervised. It seems to me that police or security should be able to safely detain one middle-aged woman.

Who was at fault for her travel interruption, whether or not she should have had companions, whether her addiction problem was a valid excuse for behaving like an asshole are all moot points to me. That she behaved badly enough to warrant detention, DOESN'T excuse her detainers from what I consider a tragically bad decision on how to hold her.

[TheEschaton]

I was once on a flight from Buffalo -> JFK -> JOhannesburg, South Africa.

The Buffalo to JFK flight was 3 hours late because they had to de-ice the wings, I told the flight crew, they said they would call ahead, but the plane still left anyways (I had about a 2 1/2 hour layover in JFK, supposedly, but had to go to a different terminal, so I showed up an hour after the gate closed, and 15 minutes after the plane had actually left.) South African Airways basically told me: tough shit, go on standby. I slept in JFK for two days before I got a spot on standby, since there was only one flight a day.

Point of the story: I'm a former drug addict and still a bit of a drinker, but I didn't flip my shit and cause a scene in the airport, and that's when my delay WASN'T EVEN MY FAULT. This bitch was late to her flight, had to be rerouted through a different flight because of her lateness, and missed her connection, and she flipped her shit. She deserved to be arrested. Hell, had I done something like that with my brownish skin and my scraggly black beard, a sniper would've taken me out.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

This bitch was late to her flight, had to be rerouted through a different flight because of her lateness, and missed her connection, and she flipped her shit. She deserved to be arrested.
But do you feel she needed to be celled AND shackled to the bench?

Hell, had I done something like that with my brownish skin and my scraggly black beard, a sniper would've taken me out.
Would you have felt that was justified treatment for behaving irrationally and not actually a physical threat to anyone?

[Celephais]

Tarmac crew ain't nothing to fuck wit.

[Sean of the Thread]

But do you feel she needed to be celled AND shackled to the bench?

Would you have felt that was justified treatment for behaving irrationally and not actually a physical threat to anyone?

Everyone is ALWAYS a physical threat to someone or something.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah you're right. They should have shot her in the head instead.

[Sean of the Thread]

Now you're just being stupid.

[CrystalTears]

So have some of the responses here as though her treatment was justified. I was being sarcastic, but apparently unless you put it in italics, some of you fuckheads don't get it.

[DeV]

So have some of the responses here as though her treatment was justified. I was being sarcastic, but apparently unless you put it in italics, some of you fuckheads don't get it.Then there are those times when some of us fuckheads agree with you on points, sarcastic or otherwise.

[CrystalTears]

You're not a fuckhead, DeV. :heart:

[Sean of the Thread]

Don't be all bitter at me because you have a hairy asshole and I can't see your sarcasm through text.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I was once on a flight from Buffalo -> JFK -> JOhannesburg, South Africa.

The Buffalo to JFK flight was 3 hours late because they had to de-ice the wings, I told the flight crew, they said they would call ahead, but the plane still left anyways (I had about a 2 1/2 hour layover in JFK, supposedly, but had to go to a different terminal, so I showed up an hour after the gate closed, and 15 minutes after the plane had actually left.) South African Airways basically told me: tough shit, go on standby. I slept in JFK for two days before I got a spot on standby, since there was only one flight a day.

Point of the story: I'm a former drug addict and still a bit of a drinker, but I didn't flip my shit and cause a scene in the airport, and that's when my delay WASN'T EVEN MY FAULT. This bitch was late to her flight, had to be rerouted through a different flight because of her lateness, and missed her connection, and she flipped her shit. She deserved to be arrested. Hell, had I done something like that with my brownish skin and my scraggly black beard, a sniper would've taken me out.

-TheE-

And you're missing my point.

I never said she shouldn't have been held accountable- I said that you and others acting like she rationally decided to flip out are tools if you're not even going to take into consideration the fact that she was mentally unstable at the time.

And the fact that you're calling her a bitch because of her mental illness is plain stupid, ESPECIALLY if you yourself have ever suffered from addiction. Her mental illness is the DIRECT influence on her behavior so to act like it's totally seperate is idiocy.

Obviously I don't believe in letting addicts or people mentally unstable get off scotch free when they do something wrong- in fact you'll also see that I don't feel the cops should be "made to pay", but I think that you and many others are stupid to suggest that she should have made a more "reasoned" decision. No shit she should have- she was OBVIOUSLY incapable of doing so however so to argue that is stupid.

Call her sad, call the arrest warranted, but for fuck's sake don't say that she's just some self-centered bitch as justification for what happened. I seriously doubt a woman who's only problem was being a self-centered rich bitch would strange herself with her shackles.

[Clove]

Now you're just being stupid.

Oh the irony....

[Atlanteax]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/04/airport.custody.death.presser.cnn?iref=mpvideosvie w

Released Video...

... as more details come up, it seems to me that the blame is moreso the neglectant husband, and the woman in question for missing her flight and subseqently "flipping out" ...

Btw, apparently there's a guideline that the police (that placed her in the holding cell) could NOT monitor the inside of the room via camera or anything that would invade personal rights ... so in essence, police were following the written rules ... and are exonerated for that portion.

Also, since she had to be subdued by 3-4 officers at the airport... she probably should had been just tasered.

[CrystalTears]

And see, all I see is a hyterical woman screaming. She's not flailing, kicking or punching anyone or trying to hurt anyone. She was screaming. The arrest was fine and justified. They handled it well. What I think many people have an issue with was leaving her shackled to a bench in a cell. If she was that unstable that four people had to wrestle her to the ground, she should have been monitored.

[Clove]

. If she was that unstable that four people had to wrestle her to the ground, she should have been monitored.

And if she required a level of monitoring that those police weren't permitted to perform, she should have been transferred to where she could receive proper supervision, say a secure hospital ward.

I saw the same things CT did. A disruptive, hysterical woman who was being uncooperative. The arrest seemed normal and well performed. I do not agree with leaving someone shackled to a wall in a cell with enough chain to choke themselves to death.

Some of my less... upright coworkers who have been arrested confessed that even being held for a few hours or overnight, they had to remove their belt and shoelaces (something I thought only happened if there was a concern). If it's typical to remove shoelaces and belts to prevent harm, what reasoning is there for a chaining someone to a wall? Honestly.

[Shifted]

Tarmac crew ain't nothing to fuck wit.

x2

[Bobmuhthol]

DON'T TASE ME, BRO!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I reiterate, that if the husband wasn't a piece of shit and had traveled with her, likely none of this would have happened.

I blame the husband.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I reiterate, that if the husband wasn't a piece of shit and had traveled with her, likely none of this would have happened.

I blame the husband.

I agree with this statement :/ He of all people should have been there for her.

[Clove]

I reiterate, that if the husband wasn't a piece of shit and had traveled with her, likely none of this would have happened.

I blame the husband.

Pure speculation. It's possible her husband could have kept her calm, but she could have just as easily flipped out with him by her side. The issue in my opinion was a bad holding procedure. People freak out because they're human and regardless of the reasons why, if they need to be detained or arrested it should be done safely.

[Clove]

I agree with this statement :/ He of all people should have been there for her.

Personally I blame whoever it was that decided she needed to go to rehab out of state. Clearly she should never have been on a plane. Let's blame her doctor too

[CrystalTears]

Perhaps the husband there would have helped to calm her down. Perhaps the doctor could have sent her somewhere a bit more local. Maybe she could have been sedated prior to the trip. It's pointless to go back and figure out how she could have controlled her outbursts, but in the end, she was handcuffed and chained in a cell unsupervised, which caused her death. How she got there or why is immaterial.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Perhaps the husband there would have helped to calm her down. Perhaps the doctor could have sent her somewhere a bit more local. Maybe she could have been sedated prior to the trip. It's pointless to go back and figure out how she could have controlled her outbursts, but in the end, she was handcuffed and chained in a cell unsupervised, which caused her death. How she got there or why is immaterial.

I agree with this, as well.

Seriously, just because I think those close to her should feel guilty for not assisting her better doesn't mean I think they are TOTALLY at fault or she's a dumb self-centered bitch. I'm just reiterating that many factors in this make me sad about the ultimate outcome concerning this woman. Including that from what it sounds like the husband did not play his part very well to help his wife who obviously needed him. I could be wrong and as has been said by Clove, it's all dependent on speculation, but I'm just going off what I've read/heard thus far.

[CrystalTears]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/law/03/26/airport.death/index.html

(CNN) -- The family of a woman who died last year while in police custody at Phoenix, Arizona's, Sky Harbor International Airport filed an $8 million claim Wednesday against the city of Phoenix and its police department, the first step in filing a wrongful death suit.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/US/law/03/26/airport.death/art.womandead.jpg Carol Gotbaum, shown in an undated family photo, died accidentally, a medical examiner said.

Carol Gotbaum, a 45-year-old mother of three from New York traveling to Tucson, Arizona, to enter an alcohol rehabilitation center, was taken into custody by Phoenix police on September 28 after she missed her connecting flight and flew into a rage.

She was left alone in a holding cell at the airport and subsequently died, accidentally strangling herself while trying to escape her handcuffs.
The claim accuses the Police Department (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/phoenix_police_department) of using "excessive and unreasonable force" on Gotbaum and failing to follow its own procedures in handling people who are obviously disturbed.

"Good people here made lethal, unreasonable mistakes, with catastrophic results for Carol, her three small children and for her husband," the claim says.

Gotbaum was treated "as if she was a dangerous criminal, rather than as a sick, intoxicated and vulnerable person she was," it says. "She had no weapon and never threatened anyone."

City attorneys responded to the claim, saying that police officers acted properly and responsibly in restraining Gotbaum.

"The Gotbaum family has publicly admitted, not only that Carol hid her medical and mental condition, but that the officers responded to Carol exactly the way her husband knew they would respond because they did not have critical information known only to the Gotbaum family," city attorneys representing the Police Department wrote.

Gotbaum (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/carol_ann_gotbaum), the stepdaughter-in-law of New York public advocate Betsy Gotbaum, became agitated after missing her flight when gate agents were unable to seat her on a subsequent flight. Airport surveillance video shows Gotbaum's arrest, with police officers struggling to handcuff her.

Police reports say she was "uncooperative" and resisted arrest, screaming during their attempts to escort her out of the airport terminal.

She was accused of disorderly conduct and placed in a holding cell at the airport, where she continued to scream for several minutes after police left the room. Shortly after she stopped screaming, an officer found her unconscious, and rescuers were unable to resuscitate her. The Maricopa County medical examiner ruled that her death was an accidental hanging