Spell burst

[AestheticDeath]

Right, so I thought I had it figured out. I was wrong.

The rogue in question has 24 MIU, 24 AS, 24 HP, and 74 minor elemental spells.

Makes 146 magical ranks.

I thought, this was divided by either 3 or 4.

I took 4 to be safe. 36.5, or 36 mana worth of spells... Right?


>spell active
You currently have the following active spells:
Combat Movement
Combat Focus
103
107
509
503
Spirit Guard
606
101
430
425
406
Sign of Warding
Sign of Shields
Sign of Defending
401
911
Sign of Smiting
Sign of Swords
Sign of Striking
414

So 101, 103, 107 should count half correct? Half each separately for safety sake, and you round up getting, 1, 2, and 4 for 6 mana.

606, 503, 509, 911 = 29 mana

Thats a total of 35 mana worn correct?

Small statues are supposed to be free correct?

So if I should be able to wear 36, and was wearing 35, why did I blow up after going through the barrier?

[Kitsun]

The "rough" estimate of wearable mana for OTF spellburst has never been really accurate and I think you're making assumptions that aren't right.

I think Gib did some extensive studies of spellburst a while back and posted it on the officials.

Spell training does not get included in burst-able mana equation and that would affect you a huge amount.

[Insodus]

I had a thread on this way back when, it has some good info in it...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=14333

[AestheticDeath]

ok, few things

1. i think there is a different equation for squares/semis/pures, or at least one for square/semi and one for pure

2. i think i have the pure formula (its the ONLY thing that matches my training, and the research i've done with my popping point.)


x = spell ranks awarded per training of 1x/level of magic ranks

r = magic ranks per level.

z = outside spell ranks wearable (rounded down)

z = (r * x) + (r-1)

x=10

so

z = (8.4 * 10) + (8.4 - 1)
z = (84) + (7.4)
z = 91.4 = 91

that was my safe point.

Thats the only real thing I found in that thread, but with his statement of pures, semis and squares possibly having different formulas it doesn't help my rogue much.

[Gan]

With my old rogue and OTF I always took total magical ranks divided by 3. Then added up spells in circle x .5 and spells not known at face value up to the point of matching the total ranks divided by 3.

However, my rogue was not a magical rogue and only had 4 known spells versus the 74 known spells you have. Somehow this, I think, is what is impacting your rogue.

(146/3=48.6) meaning you should have plenty of room for more by the method of calculation I always used successfully.

[Celephais]

(146/3=48.6) meaning you should have plenty of room for more by the method of calculation I always used successfully.
If Kitsun is right that spell ranks don't count.. he only has 72 spell ranks, or 24 mana.

[Drunken Durfin]

If someone wants to front me a fixskill potion, I will be more than happy to spend some time as a guinea pig in Nelmar Temple to solve the riddle for the squares formula.

[AestheticDeath]

haha

[DaFilcher]

Dude, you didn't count 430, 425, 414, 406 and 401. For 76 * .5 = another 38 mana on top of the 35 you calculated.

DaFilcher - Captain Obvious

[Clipt]

DaFilcher - Captain Motard

[AestheticDeath]

Uh spells you CAN cast don't count as anything.
Your thinking spells you COULD cast.

Also, I should note, that when I blew up I only lost one spell. I was under the impression anything over the limit would come off yeah? Only thing it took off was 911.

[Celephais]

Thats a total of 35 mana worn correct?


If Kitsun is right that spell ranks don't count.. he only has 72 spell ranks, or 24 mana.


Only thing it took off was 911.

HMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm

35 - 11 = ... 24!!!

[Fallen]

911 bursts like crazy. Some spells seem to count for more. I have observed this, and Gib's research backed this up as well.

[Gan]

I wonder if 911 counts for 20 mana (+20 bonus to dodging) than the 11 mana it represents.

Something to think about I suppose.

I never had a problem with it as a capped pure in OTF. It was almost instant death with the rogue if I had it on, regardless if any other spells were worn or not.

[thefarmer]

Does scroll reading count anything for spellburst?

[Gan]

Does scroll reading count anything for spellburst?

Yes.

I always understood it as any skill relating to magic counts.

[thefarmer]

That's what I thought, just never really had spent much time in spellburst areas

[GuildRat]

MIU, AS, HP, and spell ranks all count towards burst. I don't think that lores count. As a square, spell ranks may count as less than MIU, AS, and HP, but that's just a theory of mine. My old rogue held all the MinE, all the MinS up to 107, 601, 602, 911, 503,507, 905, 509, and 202, and never bursted.

[Fallen]

Spell ranks do not count. Or if they do, they count for an extremely small amount.

[Sylvan Dreams]

What about the mana controls? How do they count if at all?

[Jolena]

Well, my rogue goes into the Temple with 82 ranks of magical skills (40 of MIU, 40 of AS, and 2 of HP). With that, I wear 401, 406, 503, 509, 101, 107, 103, and 202. Never had it burst on me.

Edited to add: Divided by 3 and rounded down, I count that as 27 possible mana points.

401
406
----
7 or 1/2 = 3 (rounded down)

101
107
103
---
11 or 1/2 = 5 (rounded down)

202
509
503
---
14

Total: 22 mana.

Now, I haven't attempted to add anything else in like 905 or whatever, but I guess I could to see if it works just for research purposes. I've got a scroll somewhere with that spell on it. It would put me right at 27 ranks.

[GuildRat]

Arcane Symbols.....................| 146 46
Magic Item Use.....................| 142 42
Harness Power......................| 58 12

Spell ranks at 25

That training allowed me to wear the spells I listed.

[Drunken Durfin]

What I've got:
Arcane Symbols.....................| 170 70
Magic Item Use.....................| 170 70
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Spirit Mana Control................| 50 10

What I can wear:
101: Spirit Warding I
103: Spirit Defense
107: Spirit Warding II
112: Water Walking
202: Spirit Shield
401: Elemental Defense I
406: Elemental Defense II
414: Elemental Defense III
503: Thurfel's Ward
509: Strength

Comes to 58 mana worth.

Not sure what the burst point is, but this is where I am right now. Will post more as I do more testing.

[Drunken Durfin]

You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
Spell Strength (509) ended. [-15Str, -15PhysAS]
You feel your extra strength departing.
... 3 points of damage!
You wince as the cold blast numbs your left arm

Added 303, pushed me over the edge apparently. With the above skills, I cannot wear 61 mana.

[AestheticDeath]

As a warrior right?

[Drunken Durfin]

Right. Dwarven warrior, 90 trains.

[FinisWolf]

So all you great mathematicians, figure this out if you can.

Finiswolf (at level 63), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 190 90
Shield Use.........................| 230 130
Combat Maneuvers...................| 202 102
Edged Weapons......................| 230 130
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 140 40
Physical Fitness...................| 166 66
Harness Power......................| 166 66
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 105 25
Perception.........................| 105 25
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 105 25
Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 40

After his own spells, he can only wear 202, 103, and 401. Any spell after that he bursts. I have tried 406 and 401 together, and he bursts.

I can't figure it out. All the assist / referral did was get me an I don't know.

I have heard that you can and can not count your SPELL ranks. I have also only ever heard that you divide by 3. So:

w/ Spell ranks that's: 176 / 3 = 58 (rounded down)
w/o Spell ranks that's: 116 / 3 = 38 (rounded down)

My burst point occurs the same in the Keen as it does in the Temple, and it happens with any more then 6 points carried.

Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Finis

[Drunken Durfin]

Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions?



Paladins suck?

[FinisWolf]

Paladins suck?

I actually bounce back and forth on that thought. At times I will agree with your statement, and others I will argue that they do have an amazing arsenal with their one true flaw being their immense defensive weakness.

My bouncing is likely the reason that Finiswolf will never see past his current level, short of another re-roll. As a ranger he made it to level 15, as a warrior he made it to level 40 to 45, and now as a paladin he is at level 63 (converted from warrior).

:shrug:

Still doesn't explain this oddity that the GH/GM's can't won't explain.

Finis

[TheWitch]

The host most likely can't.
The GM most likely won't.

This is one of those things they don't want us to understand.

[Drunken Durfin]

Such is the major problem with Gemstone. We pay to play a game which we are not allowed to know the rules to.

[Latrinsorm]

Such is the major problem with Gemstone. We pay to play a game which we are not allowed to know the rules to.It's very rare for a GM to interfere with actual mechanics testing. So it's less that we're "not allowed" and more that certain information is not directly given to us.

[GuildRat]

Somewhere here on the boards, Gan posted about as close as you can get to the formula. I'm not sure what role...or how much.. lores are taken into account.

[Stunseed]

Wanna say lores count as half.

[bluesmith]

Durfin,

Have you learned any spells? Just curious why you'd have SMC otherwise.

[FinisWolf]

As far the formula, I didn't want the formula, I wanted an explanation as to why my paladin can't carry hardly any outside magic. I was guessing it was a bug, which is why I took it to the GH/GM's.

Bluesmith: My guess is he is sharing with empaths and clerics based on his MC of choice.

Finis

[Celephais]

I thought self cast spells count... just at a lesser rate, could that explain the paladin issue?

[GuildRat]

As far the formula, I didn't want the formula, I wanted an explanation as to why my paladin can't carry hardly any outside magic. I was guessing it was a bug, which is why I took it to the GH/GM's.

Bluesmith: My guess is he is sharing with empaths and clerics based on his MC of choice.

Finis


Looking at the training...I'd say lack of sufficient/any AS/MIU...which weigh heavily into the formula. My 1.79 cents.

[GuildRat]

Self cast cost 0...it's spells that CAN be learned that count as 1/2 the mana of the spell....e.g.; if you can learn 414...but haven't, it only counts as 7 mana used.

[FinisWolf]

I thought self cast spells count... just at a lesser rate, could that explain the paladin issue?

Could well be. I always thought your own spells didn't count, but I could be wrong.


Looking at the training...I'd say lack of sufficient/any AS/MIU...which weigh heavily into the formula. My 1.79 cents.

I suppose that could be as well, but I heard that the magic rank type doesn't matter.

Is there anyone that could weigh on here that has done testing please?

Finis

[Celephais]

Finis, try just 401 and 406, none of your own spells... that should tell us if self spells are counting for you. It could be a paladin bug that means paladins are getting counted for their own spells when they shouldn't be.

[GuildRat]

That would've been awsome when change over from GS3 to GS4 happened...unlimited fixskills to nail down the formula. Alas, it's not to be.

[Drunken Durfin]

Durfin,
Have you learned any spells? Just curious why you'd have SMC otherwise.

Mostly so I can have enough mana for two rounds of CoL signs in the field, nothing like hunting for a half hour to refill the coffers. The ten ranks only gets me 16 mana, so sharing is kinda silly.

I went with Spirit because I was told a long time ago that you needed 10 ranks of SMC in order to successfully use the Raise Dead ale on Teras, in conjunction with a WoL scroll of course. I have not tested it yet though. With the recent changes to chrisms, I doubt I will unless there is a dire need during an invasion.

[AestheticDeath]

changes to chrisms?

[Drunken Durfin]

changes to chrisms?

Allowing for the retention of exp past death.

[GuildRat]

I'm pretty sure you can get a cleric to make you a chrysm...and be able to use it on the body...unless that's the change you're talking about. (Which I've not heard of)

[Drunken Durfin]

Only clerics can use chrisms.

[GuildRat]

That'd explain why my cleric could use my gf's chrysms before he was old enough to make his own. Good info.

[FinisWolf]

Finis, try just 401 and 406, none of your own spells... that should tell us if self spells are counting for you. It could be a paladin bug that means paladins are getting counted for their own spells when they shouldn't be.

Will do. Will post after I test.

Finis

[Hunter D]

45 mil will go far more then using it to fix your stats, imho.

[Drunken Durfin]

:wtf:

[Celephais]

45 mil will go far more then using it to fix your stats, imho.


:wtf:
Was meant for the capped warrior fixstat potion thread, I'm sure.

[FinisWolf]

Ok, so I tested Finis. His spells are not being counted when it comes to spellburst in the keen and the temple.

So that really brings me back to wondering why the heck he can't wear more then 7 points of spells.

Finis

[Fallen]

I dont know if this has already been stated, but your own magical ranks do NOT count towards increasing your spellburst threshold, though your actual spells do not count towards bursting either. Some spells are far more heavily weighted than others. Mass Blurs and Mobility for instance are quite a bit more taxing than other spells at/near those levels.

This is all according to Gib's research.

[Drunken Durfin]

I often refer to spellburst as the "lets fuck squares" mechanic. Apparently it is the "lets fuck squares, but lets REALLY fuck paladins" mechanic.

[Drunken Durfin]

I dont know if this has already been stated, but your own magical ranks do NOT count towards increasing your spellburst threshold...

What are you counting as "magical ranks" here? Are you saying that AS and MIU have no effect on spellburst?

[Fallen]

What is odd is that some areas are NOT balanced around squares spelltanking, and some areas seem to almost take spell tanking into account. OTF is one example where mechanics seem to be built around squares requiring a strong magical build to survive. Crystal weapons being what they are.

The Rift on the other hand allows a square to wear 101, 103, 107, 120, 401, 406, and 414 all without the possibility of spellburst/stripping due to the "self spell only" setup.

Temple Nelemar is just a tough place to hunt. Even WHEN spell tanking, you're up against Sentries, who can ward like level pures.

Everywhere where spellburst is NOT in affect? A spell-tanked square has absolutely no excuse for dying.

[Fallen]

What are you counting as "magical ranks" here? Are you saying that AS and MIU have no effect on spellburst?

My bad. I meant Spell ranks. Spell ranks do not count towards Spellburst. MIU/Arcane Symbols, Mana Share, Harness Power all count. I would imagine Lores and Spell Aim do as well.

[Celephais]

I dont know if this has already been stated, but your own magical ranks do NOT count towards increasing your spellburst threshold, though your actual spells do not count towards bursting either. Some spells are far more heavily weighted than others. Mass Blurs and Mobility for instance are quite a bit more taxing than other spells at/near those levels.

This is all according to Gib's research.
My guess is this has to do with the whole degrees of seperation from a spell sphere. Elemental spheres are as far away from a paladin as you can get, and I imagine foreign profession spells don't help either (Ranger).

It would be interesting to see a cleric or empath without many ranks in non-spells to see how they do with the elemental defense spells.

[FinisWolf]

I often refer to spellburst as the "lets fuck squares" mechanic. Apparently it is the "lets fuck squares, but lets REALLY fuck paladins" mechanic.

Can I quote that? O wait! I already did. Well, it certainly bares the need for repetition.

Finis

[StJimmy]

I'm assuming level has something to do with it too. I've been hunting OTF for the last couple hours, levelled and didn't bother training before going out again and I burst. Nothing changed, no additional spells were cast on me.

[AestheticDeath]

weird

[Khariz]

I'm assuming level has something to do with it too. I've been hunting OTF for the last couple hours, levelled and didn't bother training before going out again and I burst. Nothing changed, no additional spells were cast on me.

Sounds like more of Gemstone's lovely rounding problems.

[BigWorm]

I'm assuming level has something to do with it too. I've been hunting OTF for the last couple hours, levelled and didn't bother training before going out again and I burst. Nothing changed, no additional spells were cast on me.

I haven't experience this at all. I spent at least 15 levels in there as a square who uses lots of imbeds and scrolls to push my spellburst. In my experience, the formula (atleast for squares) is ROUGHLY magic ranks / 3 = mana you can wear. Spells from the 400's and 100's cost "half price". I always round up to be safe, but GS doesn't, so there's some wiggle room there.

My advice is to wear the spells that offer the most bang for the buck. That means 401, 406, 101, 103, 107, 202 for sure, try to wear 414 as well. 601 is cheap and useful, 503 is a good value, and 1601 is under rated. Stay away from 911 unless you really need it because it seems to cost more than 11 mana to wear for some reason. If you can use scrolls, the cleric spells (303, 307, 310) are nice and 307/310 don't count against your spellburst total and 507/508 are good values as well.