What should happen to the 10-yr kid?

[Atlanteax]

I'm at a loss...

But just because he is 10 and "innocent" ...

... it doesn't excuse the crime if he intentionally/malicious set the fire...

.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/town-torn-over-boy-accused-of-murder/20071002092609990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Town Torn Over Boy Accused of Murder
Oct. 1, 2007,CNN
Posted: 2007-10-02 12:24:21
Filed Under: Crime News, Nation News
GREENVILLE, Ohio (Oct. 1) -- A 10-year-old boy charged with arson and murder in the deaths of his mother and four others was released to the custody of his grandmother Monday in a case that has shocked and divided a small Ohio town.

Photo Gallery: One Town's Tragedy
(pictures of white folks & burnt-out semi-ghetto home)

The child denies all the charges, the boy's attorney, David Rohrer, told Darke County Juvenile Court Judge Michael McClurg on Monday morning. Rohrer also said that while the boy was read his rights before questioning, his age prevented him from fully understanding the situation.

About three dozen people gathered outside the county government center cheered when it was announced outside that the boy would be freed immediately from a juvenile facility in nearby Troy.

The boy escaped the September 16 fire that killed his mother, Chanan Palmer; his half-sister Kaysha, 8, and three children of Christy Winans: Kayla Winans, 6; Je'Shawn Davis, 5; and Jasmine Davis, 3.

Christy Winans and her boyfriend escaped the blaze with minor or no injuries.

Neighbors in Greenville, Ohio, about 30 miles from Dayton, said the duplex became a raging inferno within five minutes.

Darke County Prosecutor Richard Howell told the Dayton Daily News last week that the boy didn't give investigators a clear motive. But when asked whether he was certain the boy was behind the fire, Howell told the newspaper, "Yes, I am."

Winans' mother, Sabrina Jones, screamed at the boy's supporters outside the court Monday.

"My grandkids didn't even see the age of 10," Jones yelled at the crowd as she hurried to her car.

While police have said the boy confessed to setting the blaze, his supporters say he gave in under three days of questioning.

"He was just made a scapegoat for the whole thing," said Burke L. Goines, the boy's uncle. "It's traumatizing to put a 10-year-old boy in a situation like this, to make other people look better in their investigation," Goines said.

"A lot of people know what really happened, and no one will come forward," said Vicky Perez, who described herself as a friend and neighbor of the boy's family.

William Zink, pastor of the New Life Pentecostals of Greenville, said the boy was a regular churchgoer, overcoming difficulties including the death in July of his stepfather from AIDS and what he said was the family's "wild lifestyle."

"It was not just your 'American pie' family," Zink said. He said the boy had no bed and slept on the couch in the duplex.

The boy will now be under house arrest and staying with grandmother Tammy Reed. He will be home-schooled at the grandmother's home, the court said.

A forensic and psychological examination was scheduled for Friday.

The judge Monday did nothing to change the charges against the boy: one juvenile count of arson and five counts of murder. The arson count carries a minimum of one to three years in detention. The murder counts could keep the boy in custody until age 21.

But the boy could be labeled a serious youth offender under Ohio law, which could lead to imprisonment for life.

Zink said the boy is worth saving from the juvenile justice system.

"You can't want a kid to be a scapegoat for something this horrific," he said.

"This little boy got taken away from his family and community," neighbor Perez said. "We just want him to come home."

2007-10-02 09:29:54

[Goretawn]

The boy escaped the September 16 fire that killed his mother, Chanan Palmer; his half-sister Kaysha, 8, and three children of Christy Winans: Kayla Winans, 6; Je'Shawn Davis, 5; and Jasmine Davis, 3.

Christy Winans and her boyfriend escaped the blaze with minor or no injuries.

I would die trying to save my children and any other person in that house. No way I could live with myself if I didn't.

[Celephais]

I would die trying to save my children and any other person in that house. No way I could live with myself if I didn't.
Look at the names of the kids, the fact it was a duplex (I didn't look at the picture but the caption was enough), the fact it's a boyfriend not a husband... they weren't their "loved ones", they were extra food stamps. The parents are trash.

You're dead on in that anyone with any love for their children wouldn't let the situation end as it id.

[Clove]

What a horrible story. I was a little shocked by the report that Christy Winans and her boyfriend escaped too. I can't say what I'd do were I in the same situation; but at the same time I can't imagine fleeing a fire while anyone in my family was still inside (from the cat on up).

To be fair she may have brought her children out, but they simply didn't survive. Smoke inhalation can kill quickly, especially a child.

[Stanley Burrell]

"Okay, it's either you definitely should play with matches, or you definitely shouldn't play with matches." - Meatwad

[Drew]

Anyone who escapes a fire that their children die in (barring the type of smoke inhalation thing Clove mentioned) is a total piece of shit.

[Gan]

Tragic.

As to the question in the OP. Depends on if the kid is found guilty. For now he's innocent until proven otherwise.

The kid may or may not be a lost cause; however, the parent already sounds like she is a lost cause. Boyfriend as well.

[Stanley Burrell]

Look at the names of the kids

I was going to originally go with a one-liner of:

"zOMG RL USE OF TEH BADNAME VERB LOLOLOZ!!!111one."

But I thought it was a bit over-the-top, even for vBulletin.

P.S. How dare you ethnically target this poor group of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, racist :nono:

[Numbers]

If the kid set the fire intentionally, he should definitely be put into an institution for therapy for many years.

And just to add, seeing Drew's avatar after reading this news story had me cracking up.

[Skeeter]

The kid needs to be locked away for a long time.

I hear about this shit daily too as Greenville is only like 40 minutes away.

[Stanley Burrell]

And just to add, seeing Drew's avatar after reading this news story had me cracking up.

Beaker reserves the right, NAY, God-given message to flex diplomatic immunity.

[Celephais]

"Okay, it's either you definitely should play with matches, or you definitely shouldn't play with matches." - Meatwad


And just to add, seeing Drew's avatar after reading this news story had me cracking up.


Beaker reserves the right, NAY, God-given message to flex diplomatic immunity.

Never has anything so tragic been so hilarious... each one of those things got a chuckle out of me.

[Jorddyn]

Kid set fire on purpose? Definitely needs therapy.
Kid set fire on accident killing his family? Definitely needs therapy.
Kid didn't set fire and is now scapegoat? Definitely needs therapy.

[Sthrockmorton]

The boy escaped the September 16 fire that killed his mother, Chanan Palmer; his half-sister Kaysha, 8, and three children of Christy Winans: Kayla Winans, 6; Je'Shawn Davis, 5; and Jasmine Davis, 3.

Christy Winans and her boyfriend escaped the blaze with minor or no injuries.

So 2 mothers, 1 boyfriend, and 5 children (all under 10) living in the double-wide. How did it not get burned down sooner?

I hate to be a dick, but I think its kinda funny that the community obviously doesnt care that 5 people died. If they want the kid out that bad, let him go live in their community, specifically with Christy and her boyo. Just don't let him near my neighborhood.


Kid set fire on purpose? Definitely needs therapy.
Kid set fire on accident killing his family? Definitely needs therapy.
Kid didn't set fire and is now scapegoat? Definitely needs therapy.
^^ That pretty much sums it up...

[Celephais]

So 2 mothers, 1 boyfriend, and 5 children (all under 10) living in the double-wide. How did it not get burned down sooner?
duplex, not a double wide... not as bad, but still obviously low income housing.


I hate to be a dick, but I think its kinda funny that the community obviously doesnt care that 5 people died. If they want the kid out that bad, let him go live in their community, specifically with Christy and her boyo. Just don't let him near my neighborhood.
Yeah, I'm past "hating to be a dick" on these boards... if the kid did it, he's fucked, and just because he happens to now be an orphan doesn't me he shouldn't be fucked. If the story was some 10 year old went into the house of some kid he didn't like and lit the place, everyone would be raising torches. I don't see how it's any different since he was mad at his mom for not letting him eat cherrios.

[Numbers]

So 2 mothers, 1 boyfriend, and 5 children (all under 10) living in the double-wide. How did it not get burned down sooner?

They were planning to audition for a new sitcom on UPN?

[Sthrockmorton]

Yeah, I'm past "hating to be a dick" on these boards...

I'm sure it won't be long before I'm there. I guess till then I'm just a noob.

[TheEschaton]

If it's true that they questioned him for three days before he confessed, in the light of the fact that he's 10, that confession is never making it into trial, provided he has a halfway decent attorney, no matter whether he did it or not.

And if the confession doesn't make it in, barring some bizarre scientific explanation of who set it, this case'll be thrown out.

Hell, you can't even question able-minded adults for three days straight. Depending on the circumstances, at least.

-TheE-

[TheSmooth1]

Anyone who escapes a fire that their children die in (barring the type of smoke inhalation thing Clove mentioned) is a total piece of shit.

Ever heard of circumstance?

Blanket statements are a total piece of shit.

[Amber]

I don't see how it's any different since he was mad at his mom for not letting him eat cherrios.
:confused:
I didn't see any mention of him being mad at his mom. Maybe he started the fire accidentally, either by playing with matches, lighter, candles, or cooking.

My cousin died in a fire when he was seven. He'd gotten up in the middle of the night and tried cooking a can of soup and somehow set the house on fire. Everyone else got out alright, but my aunt couldn't find him, as he was in the kitchen, not his bedroom where she expected him to be. She's never gotten over losing him, and especially she blames herself for not being able to save him. Anyways, point I want to make is that we have no proof that he intentionally set the fire, or that he intended for anyone to be killed. The kid's in serious need of counseling, no matter the circumstances though.

[Celephais]

Obviously the article didn't say his mom diprived him of cherrios, I'm just saying that if he did it maliciously, as it sounds like the prosecutor is saying, then it's no different than if he had done it to another family. If it's accidental or has to do with him being pressured to confess, then yeah of course I don't think the kid should be crusified.

And two able adults made it out leaving three children, I don't think all three of them were making soup... sure it's possible something happened, I'm just saying I doubt it.

[Gambler010]

Instead of a stove ...This kid learned not to play with fire by burning that down his whole house. Or, did he learn?

[Sthrockmorton]

Ever heard of circumstance?

Blanket statements are a total piece of shit.

I couldnt live with myself if I didnt go in and try to save them, regardless of circumstance....

[Tsa`ah]

If it's true that they questioned him for three days before he confessed

Seems to be highly overlooked, not only in this thread, but by the media at large ... also the fact that a mother and her boyfriend made it out as well.

I'm having a hard time swallowing that this kid started the fire. I'd have other suspects at the top of the list ... like wiring/gas ... and the two adults that made it out.

Sounds like the local PD trying to close the books with the least amount of effort.

[Goretawn]

Sounds like the local PD trying to close the books with the least amount of effort.
It really bothers me that this might be true.

I agree with the E (will wonders never cease?) on the interogation. Three days is a bit much for anyone, much less a 10 YO, especially following such a traumatic experience. I have a hard time believing that a 10YO would intentionally kill. Is it possible, sure, still have a hard time buying it though.

[Clove]

There isn't much to conclude from the article posted in my opinion. The prosecutor is confident the 10 year old set the fire, but evidence other than the 10 year old's own confession isn't mentioned; and the integrity of that confession is questionable (at best). Some quotes clearly show some people in the community feel strongly that the boy is being "framed" and there are allusions that the real source of the fire is already known. But no facts, no details.

Same goes with the surviving mom and boyfriend. It's a bit shocking to hear that they survived while their children died, but without any details about the nature of the fire (where it broke out, how the survivors survived) you can't honestly reason that the adults left the children to die. I used smoke inhalation as an example, but there are so many other scenarios. Rescuers may have dragged the mom and boyfriend from the house. The fire may have originated in the children's room, or overcome the room by the time the mom was aware of it, etc.

Finally, as I said in my original post; nobody knows how they'll react in a crisis like that. In my experience, persons in life or death situations don't "think" at all (rationally or emotionally) they react and that reaction almost always gives priority to self-preservation first.

The article doesn't give enough information to really even suspect how the fire started, or criticize the surviving parents.

Sitting at my safe, comfortable chair at my computer I can't conceive of fleeing my burning home while anyone in my family was still inside. My family is what gives my life meaning, so of course I can't imagine doing anything that might sacrifice them. However, I don't know how I would react in the midst of deadly flames and smoke. I don't think anyone who hasn't lived the experience can say what they'd do; only what they'd like to do.

[Latrinsorm]

In my experience, persons in life or death situations don't "think" at all (rationally or emotionally) they react and that reaction almost always gives priority to self-preservation first.Parents (especially parents of young children) are the quintessential rebuttal to this theory (and others of its ilk).
I don't think anyone who hasn't lived the experience can say what they'd do; only what they'd like to do.Give yourself a little credit, or more specifically your powers of extrapolation.

At any rate:
http://www.whiotv.com/news/14125563/detail.html
http://www.whiotv.com/news/14153623/detail.html

[Sean of the Thread]

I don't think anyone who hasn't lived the experience can say what they'd do; only what they'd like to do.

I sure as hell know what I would do.

[Tsa`ah]

No shit, speak for your childless self.

My children come first.

[Clove]

Parents (especially parents of young children) are the quintessential rebuttal to this theory (and others of its ilk).Give yourself a little credit, or more specifically your powers of extrapolation.

At any rate:
http://www.whiotv.com/news/14125563/detail.html
http://www.whiotv.com/news/14153623/detail.html

Being a parent doesn't change your humanity although it may change your instincts. My statement still stands, persons in life or death situations react on instinct not reason (in general).

When a grenade rolls into the room you either jump on it or you don't; it's an intuitive reaction that happens in a fraction of a second. I maintain that prior to being faced with a specific life-threatening situation- people only THINK they know what they'd do (or know what they should do, or know what they'd LIKE to do).

[CrystalTears]

And I believe his point is that you're all speculating on something that doesn't have concrete facts. You'd rather run the mother over the coals rather than perhaps give the benefit of the doubt that she tried and/or couldn't succeed.

Don't start with that childless bullshit because you just sound like a raging asshole.

[Clove]

No shit, speak for your childless self.

My children come first.

Says the expert on everything from lie detectors to chemistry.

[Tsa`ah]

Says the expert on everything from lie detectors to chemistry.

Oh fucking please. You made a half assed poorly qualified statement based on your opinion as a childless adult.

Ask anyone with kids what they would have done in the situation ... I doubt you'll find a single parent claim they'd get out of the house without their kids.

Maybe you should look a little closer at the wording of the article, specifically "escaped".

When I read "escaped", that infers left under their own power. Had the article read "rescued" I'd give you half a leg to stand on.

Want to make any more idiotic statements or perhaps you and CT can get ruffled every time someone points out things change when you're a parent. Raging jackass or not ... get one or two of your own or blow it out of your slackened sphincters.

[Sean of the Thread]

Any mother that didn't die trying is garbage. I know I'd look like three day old bacon before I gave up.


Some of you sound like the type to save their drowning cat before someone else's child.

[Clove]

Oh fucking please. You made a half assed poorly qualified statement based on your opinion as a childless adult.

Much like your half-assed opinions on virtually everything you clearly have little if not no experience in.



Ask anyone with kids what they would have done in the situation ... I doubt you'll find a single parent claim they'd get out of the house without their kids.


No shit fucktard, and I said just as much. There's no doubt what any decent person would claim. I gave my opinion on what people do in reality when faced with life threatening scenarios for which they have no experience or training.



Maybe you should look a little closer at the wording of the article, specifically "escaped".

When I read "escaped", that infers left under their own power. Had the article read "rescued" I'd give you half a leg to stand on.


Ah because you have a clear understanding of what happened by one word. You really are a piece of work. It's nice to see self-superior assholes who are comfortable criticizing others when they don't know shit about what they're talking about. Another thing you excel at.

[Sean of the Thread]

I don't usually pull the "dave" card (and if you don't know what that means then you're too noob for me to care) but in reality I think most if not all parents would give all to save their children from a fire or any other situation.

If not they should have been sterilized long ago.

[Clove]

I don't usually pull the "dave" card (and if you don't know what that means then you're too noob for me to care) but in reality I think most if not all parents would give all to save their children from a fire or any other situation.

If not they should have been sterilized long ago.

Then why don't all (or most) stories about fires and other like accidents involving entire families end with the parents dead before the children?

[Latrinsorm]

Then why don't all (or most) stories about fires and other like accidents involving entire families end with the parents dead before the children?Source? :D

[Clove]

Source? :D

The news. At least you're being a smartass (which is better than a dumbass).

[Sean of the Thread]

Now you're just being retarded. If you're gonna bring some stats to the table for the basis of your argument then have a source.

In other words quit making up the facts as it suits you.





*No one has accused you of having any common sense yet so ...

[Clove]

Now you're just being retarded.



*No one has accused you of having any common sense yet so ....

Certainly not something you've ever been found guilty of either.

[Sean of the Thread]

Certainly not something you've ever been found guilty of either.

The one thing I don't lack above all is common sense.

[Gan]

No shit, speak for your childless self.

My children come first.

x1000

I'd have to be either unconscious, dead, or legless if I was on the outside and my child was in a house that was on fire, and I wasnt trying to get back in to save him.

[TheEschaton]

x1000

I'd have to be either unconscious, dead, or legless if I was on the outside and my child was in a house that was on fire, and I wasnt trying to get back in to save him.

That can be arranged.

[Clove]

Now you're just being retarded. If you're gonna bring some stats to the table for the basis of your argument then have a source.

In other words quit making up the facts as it suits you.





*No one has accused you of having any common sense yet so ...

Nice edit dipshit.

Pick up any newspaper. Parents fail their children all the time in every conceivable way.

Having a child doesn't make you more responsible, more humane, more moral, more brave or more anything. If you were an asshole before you had a child, you'll probably be that same asshole.

You can shriek about how wrong my opinion is and discount it because I'm not citing sources and facts. That's fine. I'm not a psychologist and I don't have surveys or studies to support what I'm saying. It is pure opinion.

But you don't have any stronger support- your unswerving belief that you know just how you'd respond in a crisis you haven't faced is equally unfounded. And your quickness to judge how you think someone else should have reacted is pure ignorance at best, Mr. Common Sense.

[Gan]

That can be arranged.

LOL

Like you'd last 10 minutes in Texas.

Dont forget, I like to shoot guns for fun.

[Tsa`ah]

Much like your half-assed opinions on virtually everything you clearly have little if not no experience in.



No shit fucktard, and I said just as much. There's no doubt what any decent person would claim. I gave my opinion on what people do in reality when faced with life threatening scenarios for which they have no experience or training.



Ah because you have a clear understanding of what happened by one word. You really are a piece of work. It's nice to see self-superior assholes who are comfortable criticizing others when they don't know shit about what they're talking about. Another thing you excel at.

You have got to be the third most eloquently spoken retard on the internet.

[TheEschaton]

What makes you think I don't like to shoot guns for fun, either?

I'll have you know, when they took us DA's office interns to the NYPD training facility, that Sig Sauer and I were like we were made for each other. I shot a perp in the neck in the simulation with it. Awesome.

[Skeeter]

TheE makes bombs for fun. Check under your car in the morning.

[Gan]

What makes you think I don't like to shoot guns for fun, either?

I'll have you know, when they took us DA's office interns to the NYPD training facility, that Sig Sauer and I were like we were made for each other. I shot a perp in the neck in the simulation with it. Awesome.

Outstanding!

At least it will be sporting.

I'll be the guy with the Winchester model 94 30.30.

[Gan]

TheE makes bombs for fun. Check under your car in the morning.

Truck! Get it straight!

;)

[Sean of the Thread]

Outstanding!

At least it will be sporting.

I'll be the guy with the Winchester model 94 30.30.

Speaking of Winchesters... no luck on that part local.

Machine shop it.

[Clove]

Outstanding!

At least it will be sporting.

LOL, not if you have any range on him. Can I bring an M-1?

[TheEschaton]

Heh, all the other interns were like, "Dude, you seem to be far too comfortable with that gun."

I found the action on the Sig to be much cleaner than the Glock 9 which apparently is standard issue for NYPD. The Glock just felt clunky in my hands.

[Clove]

Out of curiosity do you know the specific Sig model you were firing? Everyone in my family would agree with you on the Glock; although my father, step-mother and uncle prefer a Beretta 84 for target shooting.

[TheEschaton]

I think it was the P226.

[TheEschaton]

I also preferred the S&W they had us shooting too.

[Sean of the Thread]

I prefer the P229 for personal carry. :)

Sig by far out classes a Glock. Glocks feels like cheap Chinese toys in your hands.



*I've owned the P229 in .40, .357 and 9mm and whilst I can draw smiley faces with the 9 all day nothing beats the .357

The only Glock I would consider is the Gl33. But as it stands now I still don't like them.



QUALITY H20 RIGHT HERE

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/p229-large.jpg