Policy Restricting RP

[Kentashi]

I've been reading the boards for the past couple months, and buying/selling goods and items in-game. I just came back to GS after a long hiatus, so I was trying to catch up on various changes that have been made. Now I'm going to say some things that will probably get me flamed, as I've seen others here get flamed for having similar opinions. Also, as much as I loved this game, I will most likely be leaving very soon. Here's why:

I have been around on and off for about 13-14 years. Mostly off, because every time I come back, I am reminded that this is not the game I fell in love with. I also believe most of the people who say that they have also been around that long. The reason? There were MANY more people playing back in the AOL and IA days than there are today. What we have today is simply the empty shell of what GS used to be. The reason? There are many. Graphical RPGs make up a significant portion. But more have to do with simutronics making policy changes in order to maximize profits. Ultimately, the graphical RPGs won't be able to compete with the open-endedness of text-based games for a long time. Too much programming is involved to implement features in a graphical RPG. This basically means that text-based RPG's can keep having more and more features while graphical RPGs never quite catch up. You can simply DO more in a text-based game. The "Roleplay" element is typically much deeper in a text-based game as well. Therefore thats what any text-based game worth a damn should focus on to keep its playerbase. Roleplay, and innovative features. Allow players to RP the type of character they like, and give them the IG mechanics to support that.

Charging RL dollars for events is rediculous and hurts the game. Having "Premium" accounts hurts the game. Having "Platinum" hurts the game. Over the long haul, they are diminishing their profits by doing so. If they would focus all of their efforts on GS prime, and simply raise the cost of prime by 5 dollars a month or so, they would be much better off. If players in standard GS had access to the same events/merchants as everyone else, it would give people more of a reason to WANT to be here. It would also allow them to focus all of their efforts on the main game instead of splitting up their resources, thereby lowering the quality of the standard game tremenously. It would create an atmosphere of "player equality" where the only things that mattered were all IC. Charging silvers IG instead of RL dollars for events would also help to curb inflation as a money sink.

I have also noted an increasing number of ingame policies that restrict players ability to interact with each other. Come on, this is supposed to be a "Role-playing" game. What the hell happened to the RP being the important part? If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it? It would definately make people think twice about drawing down on someone, wouldn't it? Policies barring you from avenging the death of your friend? Also ludicrous.

Gemstone's answer to a dwindling playerbase? More policies to restrict RP and force out the true roleplayers while catering to the crybabies, thus lowering the overall quality of play. Raise prices on everything to make up for the income lost to players leaving, forcing more players to leave. Welcome to the downward spiral. Welcome to the People's Socialist Republic of Gemstone.

Let the flaming begin.


~Kentashi "I'd rather betray the world, than allow the world to betray me."

[Warriorbird]

1997 != 13 or 14 years. It equals 10. Big difference.

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't feel like reading the post, but I don't see 1997 anywhere in it.

[Warriorbird]

AOL era.

[Celephais]

Charging any more for basic accounts would be ludicris. Letting people pretend to role play when really all they were doing was flaunting a mechanical advantage would result in way too much support time spent sorting it out. It's a free-for-all or a none-at-all kind of thing. (Something like The Fallen it could work in... that you know the second you draw a weapon it's at risk).

[oldanforgotten]

I've been reading the boards for the past couple months, and buying/selling goods and items in-game. I just came back to GS after a long hiatus, so I was trying to catch up on various changes that have been made. Now I'm going to say some things that will probably get me flamed, as I've seen others here get flamed for having similar opinions. Also, as much as I loved this game, I will most likely be leaving very soon. Here's why:

I have been around on and off for about 13-14 years. Mostly off, because every time I come back, I am reminded that this is not the game I fell in love with. I also believe most of the people who say that they have also been around that long. The reason? There were MANY more people playing back in the AOL and IA days than there are today. What we have today is simply the empty shell of what GS used to be. The reason? There are many. Graphical RPGs make up a significant portion. But more have to do with simutronics making policy changes in order to maximize profits. Ultimately, the graphical RPGs won't be able to compete with the open-endedness of text-based games for a long time. Too much programming is involved to implement features in a graphical RPG. This basically means that text-based RPG's can keep having more and more features while graphical RPGs never quite catch up. You can simply DO more in a text-based game. The "Roleplay" element is typically much deeper in a text-based game as well. Therefore thats what any text-based game worth a damn should focus on to keep its playerbase. Roleplay, and innovative features. Allow players to RP the type of character they like, and give them the IG mechanics to support that.

Charging RL dollars for events is rediculous and hurts the game. Having "Premium" accounts hurts the game. Having "Platinum" hurts the game. Over the long haul, they are diminishing their profits by doing so. If they would focus all of their efforts on GS prime, and simply raise the cost of prime by 5 dollars a month or so, they would be much better off. If players in standard GS had access to the same events/merchants as everyone else, it would give people more of a reason to WANT to be here. It would also allow them to focus all of their efforts on the main game instead of splitting up their resources, thereby lowering the quality of the standard game tremenously. It would create an atmosphere of "player equality" where the only things that mattered were all IC. Charging silvers IG instead of RL dollars for events would also help to curb inflation as a money sink.

I have also noted an increasing number of ingame policies that restrict players ability to interact with each other. Come on, this is supposed to be a "Role-playing" game. What the hell happened to the RP being the important part? If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it? It would definately make people think twice about drawing down on someone, wouldn't it? Policies barring you from avenging the death of your friend? Also ludicrous.

Gemstone's answer to a dwindling playerbase? More policies to restrict RP and force out the true roleplayers while catering to the crybabies, thus lowering the overall quality of play. Raise prices on everything to make up for the income lost to players leaving, forcing more players to leave. Welcome to the downward spiral. Welcome to the People's Socialist Republic of Gemstone.

Let the flaming begin.


~Kentashi "I'd rather betray the world, than allow the world to betray me."

Not to make any judgements other than the obvious.
There were many more people playing in the last 7 months of the AOL days (Dec-96 to June-07) than today. From September 95 to Dec 96, there were far less than today.

13 to 14 years ago puts you in the 93-94 timeframe, the earlier of which predates me, the latter of which never had more than 50 or so people on at any given time that I can remember.

Secondly, you're getting a big bargain today at 20 a month or whatever the current cost is compared to the 6.95 an hour it once was during primetime, or 2.95 an hour when AOL started. I missed the sign on the wall that stated Simutronics was a non-profit organization, and price-scaling is one of the best ways to maximize profits. There is a basis that has a low start that can scale up to some very large numbers depending on how much people are willing to pay.

The downward spiral started in June 1997. Welcome to being about 10 years late pointing it out.
________
Easy Vape Review (http://vaporizer.org/)

[Latrinsorm]

It would create an atmosphere of "player equality" where the only things that mattered were all IC.This is impossible unless you restrict playing time and completely abolish any player-based markets (which are both horrifically bad ideas.)
If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it?griefing, n.

Honestly, you could have fully replaced your last two full paragraphs with the word "Disneyfied much??" and perhaps a crying emoticon. People of your ilk have never bothered to elaborate on why "true roleplay[ing]" necessarily has to involve being a gritty jackass.

[Some Rogue]

AOL era.

Well, I first started on AOL and the pay by the hour scheme and that was the year I graduated from college or maybe the year after, so 1994 or 95.

[Bobmuhthol]

It was late 1995.

[RichardCranium]

It was late 1995.

August `95. that's when I found it too.

[Savageheart]

I played on GEnie do I get a cookie?

[Bobmuhthol]

No, because you speak in run-on sentences.

[Kentashi]

People of your ilk have never bothered to elaborate on why "true roleplay[ing]" necessarily has to involve being a gritty jackass.

Well to be honest, the keeping a disarmed weapon thing wouldn't effect most of my characters one way or another. I was simply pointing out a single policy that lowers the quality of RP. There are plenty of policies that do that. Any policy that regulates how two characters interact. Any policy that eliminates XP for something that you really should get xp for doing.(i.e. dueling). Why shouldn't they? If thats what a player/character enjoys doing and decides to focus on, why shouldn't they slowly get better at it?

To the guy who was counting the years back to the AOL days, I was simply referencing the AOL days as a point when the playerbase was MUCH larger.

My main point is that these policies "Obviously" aren't helping the gameplay, since more and more players are leaving. Maybe less policies, and fewer regulations are the answer.

I KNOW that premium accounts and having a "Platinum" version of the game are not good for it. It takes excitement away from the standard game. Before premium and platinum, all those events on the premie and plat calender were on the standard calander. Hardly ANY these days. And price scaling? Give me a break. Basic economics, buddy. If you raise all of your prices WAY beyond competitive rates, people will buy somewhere else, even if your product is slightly better. And their rates are NOT competitive. Why do you think the "Big Boys" of the MMORPG industry don't really capitalise on giving players who want to pay a higher monthly fee a distinct advantage? It ruins the game for their core gamers, who spend the normal monthly fee. And THAT, my friends, is what this is about. Your core gamers are your bread and butter. You cater to THEM, not to the A-holes with too much money in their pocket. To handle it any other way is a recipe for disaster.

[Savageheart]

That's hardly fair I type in run on sentances when I speak I babble.

[Sthrockmorton]

Charging RL dollars for events is rediculous and hurts the game. Having "Premium" accounts hurts the game. Having "Platinum" hurts the game. Over the long haul, they are diminishing their profits by doing so. If they would focus all of their efforts on GS prime, and simply raise the cost of prime by 5 dollars a month or so, they would be much better off. If players in standard GS had access to the same events/merchants as everyone else, it would give people more of a reason to WANT to be here."

I do one pay event a year, Ebon's Gate. Some years I don't even get to do that, but I TRY to make it a point to be around for Ebon's. Raising the cost of prime by $5 is $60 a year. I'll gladly pay less per month, and pay $40 for an event that will have much better results. I also enjoy the exclusiveness provided by the charge.

Without the charge,the crowds (already bad enough) would be 3 times the size.

[The Ponzzz]

Why does Platinum hurt GS?

[Kentashi]

That could all be mitigated by charging silvers in-game. And the people who wanted to spend the $40 to go to the event would be able to, with the OOC silver market being the way it is. They could even charge a rediculous ammount IG for the event, say 2 million silvers, to attend. It provides a money sink to keep a stranglehold on the economy. Also, if the events that were happening regularly in premium and plat were moved over to standard, that would help to spread out crowds of people at events.

Still too many people at events? Great, the game is now on the right track. Host more events. Hire more staff. Get even MORE people playing. MORE MORE MORE people. More RP. Fewer restrictions. Fewer OOC charges. Bigger, better game, which attracts even more people, allowing you to make it even bigger and better, attracting more people...see where this is going?

As things stand, the chain reaction is going the wrong direction.

[Warriorbird]

Why does Platinum hurt GS?

You mean besides being a waste of time and having a playerbase that alienates newcomers and annoys GMs?

:chuckles:

I personally don't think it has much impact.

I meant 1997...because the whole unlimited bit is what most people mean when they say "I played during AOL."

The OOC silver market doesn't give GS money to pay GMs, Kentashi, pay events do...and the whole company is predicated on Whatley pimping out his almost free staff.

[Kentashi]

Why does Platinum hurt GS?

Platinum hurts GS because before platinum was around, those merchants and events that take place ONLY in platinum now, would have happened in standard GS. Platinum takes GM resources away from GS standard, lowering the quality of play for the "Core" gamers.

Raise the standard in your CORE game instead of charging players extra for what they SHOULD be getting from the standard game, and you'll have a more successful game.

[Warriorbird]

I don't think it draws significant resources. The GMs don't actually fulfill what they're supposed to there because Plat's players are oftentimes quite unpleasant. There's also people like Jay with 5 plat accounts and 250 bucks a month...that'd be like what, 20 Prime accounts?

[Kentashi]

The OOC silver market doesn't give GS money to pay GMs, Kentashi, pay events do...and the whole company is predicated on Whatley pimping out his almost free staff.

I know they don't make money off of the OOC silver market. What I'm saying is that their business model is flawed and will ultimately fail them if they maintain their current course.

Charging your loyal gamers more because you alienated 50% of your playerbase and they left, is not the way to go. Instead of saying, "How do we make up the money we lost?" They should be saying, "How do we get back the players we lost?"

[Warriorbird]

To address your points though, Kentashi...

Charging RL cash doesn't hurt the game in the slightest. Upsells fuel a renewal market, which is what GS is.

Actually polling GS players, roleplay doesn't come out on top. Just because a tiny portion of your playerbase (myself included) wants more RP, doesn't mean we're the customers that matter.



I have also noted an increasing number of ingame policies that restrict players ability to interact with each other. Come on, this is supposed to be a "Role-playing" game. What the hell happened to the RP being the important part? If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it? It would definately make people think twice about drawing down on someone, wouldn't it? Policies barring you from avenging the death of your friend? Also ludicrous.

I'm generally in favor of PVP and CVC. GS's system needs policing or most of the existing customers WOULD leave, however. Just because some of us like a more extreme game doesn't mean the average person does. Even in DR where item theft and such is possible it is heavily regulated. GS death is far too push button to work terribly well with open looting. Character sales have insured there's a lot of complete fucking morons with capped characters too.

[Fission]

Or they say, how do we milk the most out of our remaining playerbase while exploring new revenue sources like the Hero Engine. How many prime accounts do you figure a license to Bioware is worth?

[Kentashi]

I don't think it draws significant resources. The GMs don't actually fulfill what they're supposed to there because Plat's players are oftentimes quite unpleasant. There's also people like Jay with 5 plat accounts and 250 bucks a month...that'd be like what, 20 Prime accounts?

But the events are scheduled, nonetheless. The events aren't scheduled in GS prime any more because if they had events regularly in prime, what would be the point in having platinum, right? There used to be things happening in prime all the time, because prime was all there was. Simu has put themselves in a position of having to downgrade GS standard in order to make platinum more appealing. It's sickening.

[Warriorbird]

You've missed a lot of the game's history, Kentashi, apparently...and you're not paying attention to other forces in the market.

Simu's business model right now is to license the Hero Engine to as many companies as possible. They'll use this revenue to build something else graphical and maybe, just maybe, release a graphical MMORPG.

They're comfortable with a slow downward slide in GS (especially as DR hasn' experienced one nearly so intense).

People haven't left largely because they've "alienated 50% of the playerbase"...they've left because of things like Blizzard devoting 50 million bucks to WoW...and times just changing. The current generation of gamers never really springboarded off of text.

EDIT:

Ha ha, jynx, Fission. Kentashi...just because you see those scheduled events doesn't mean they happen. They don't really effect the events staff much in the grand scheme of things.

[Kentashi]

[QUOTE=Warriorbird;630304]To address your points though, Kentashi...

Charging RL cash doesn't hurt the game in the slightest. Upsells fuel a renewal market, which is what GS is.

Actually polling GS players, roleplay doesn't come out on top. Just because a tiny portion of your playerbase (myself included) wants more RP, doesn't mean we're the customers that matter.
QUOTE]

I disagree with you on the RL cash bit. If you turn off 1000 monthly subscribers by charging extra for every special event, it's not an effective marketing strategy. But since we're on opposite sides of the fence on this, we'll just agree to disagree.

On the "Polling" of GS players, I have no doubt that you're correct. But lets say we shot back to 1997 and polled all the GS players at that time. Would the results be the same? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, the current polls are irrelevant to what I am saying. I'm saying that over the last 10 years, simu has pushed away the majority of RPers, which WERE their core gamers.

Those who are still around from long ago might even agree with me on this point; RolePlaying was more prevalent years ago than it currently is in GS.

Since RP is no longer as prevalent, obviously the RPers have moved on to some other medium in which they may RP effectively. Therefore any poll of current GS players would not include the masses of RPers who are no longer present due to the evolution of GS policy.

[Kentashi]

Ha ha, jynx, Fission. Kentashi...just because you see those scheduled events doesn't mean they happen. They don't really effect the events staff much in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sorry, how long have you been around? I'm not second-guessing you if you say you've been here for a long time, but before plat and premium were started, there were a LOT more events scheduled and taking place in GS prime. I played daily back then, 6-8 hours a day. I KNOW there were more events. There aren't now.

[Warriorbird]

I doubt the rampaging AOL masses were all hardcore RPers. I hear the exact opposite, even. And the ICE Age seems to have been filled with people extra thrilling names and ugly ass alters from all the remaining evidence.... and people like Grendeg and Celtar who want to tell you it was the greatest time ever.

I started playing in 2000. I've enjoyed it.

The idea that 1000 active players have quit because of pay events is also laughable. There IS no RP heavy medium that's drawing people other than things like LARP or I'd be playing it.

What's drawn more people is the shitty grind MMORPGs and now WoW(boring to me once you cap in it).

[Kentashi]

I agree with you. There isn't an RP heavy medium that is popular enough, or easy enough to find to draw people away. (They do exist, they just are not popular enough to provide a fulfilling experience. Not enough people on at any given time to interact with. I know of ONE text-based MUD that is very heavily RP-oriented, although I'm not sure I'm allowed to mention it here.)

But it is NOT laughable to think that 1000 people who WERE here and RP-oriented didn't leave because the game was no longer providing them with the environment that they enjoyed. I'm not saying they all left and went to some great RP paradise. If that was the case, I wouldn't be posting here, I would be playing there.

And as far as the MMORPGs out there that are graphical(ie WOW), I can't stand them either. Boring, grindish, non-RP oriented. Not particularly engaging. On the other hand, that seems to be the direction that GS is headed. And GS doesn't have the perk of being graphical or having multiple millions to invest in advertising.

[Kentashi]

As far as what happened to all the "RPers" who DID exhist? I suppose a number of possibilities are out there;

They could have just stopped RPing altogether, not having any easy way to do so. They could have become jaded GS players who now just make money off of selling characters and items, not bothering to try to find any decent RP any more. They could have discovered a small niche RP experience in a private MUD. Or maybe they just gave up searching for that elusive RP experience and succumbed to the mindless masses who joined the WoW grind. Or, like you mentioned, there's always LARP or PNP gaming to fall back on.

It's tough to say, although I'm sure the various situations I've described above apply to many people. I know about 15 people in my area alone who stopped playing due to the lack of RP opportunity. And seeing as I'm not from a place in the country that is a "GS Hub", of gamers, I would imagine there are plenty of people out there who feel the same way. Yes, I believe 1000 people to be realistic. As a matter of fact, it may be VERY light. Just because you don't hear from the people who left because of this, doesn't mean they don't exhist. They may simply feel that they can't do anything about it, and so it isn't worth their time to complain.

Because it's not, is it?

[Deathravin]

People want to pay for a smaller-nit community. I don't care about that.

I do agree with the premium/prime thing though.

There should be 3 servers - Fallen (8.95 /mo - no gm interaction whatsoever), prime (12.95 /mo - what prime is now), and plat (24.95 /mo - what plat is now).

[thefarmer]

Are you sure you were playing GS back then and not some other fantasy and/or imagined game?

I think you were playing Federation...

[mgoddess]

Having "Premium" accounts hurts the game.

You do realize that "Premium" accounts have the same access as "Standard" accounts, right? The only thing(s) that Premium people get are extra character slots (16 character slots), Four Winds Isle, and some extra merchants... for $25 over the "standard" $15/month.

If I remember correctly, every extra character slot over your "given" slots is $2.50 a month. I'm sure most people with Premium accounts have at least half of their character slots used. That's 7 slots, multiplied by $2.50 each... that's $17.50. For people that use ALL 16 (premium) slots, that's an extra $37.50 a month. Simu is actually losing money on Premium accounts with all 16 character slots used. (I don't actually know if Simu see's this as losing money... more as keeping people hooked into the game, with extra services that they pay for.)

[Kentashi]

Yes, I'm quite sure. But I DID play federation briefly on AOL and Genie. :P

[Kentashi]

Yes, having premium accounts available hurts the game. It takes merchant events that could have been avilable to everyone and makes them available only to premies. It takes features that everyone should have(ie extended locker space) away from standard players.

[Jazuela]

Well I'm new to this thread but something (morbid curiosity comes to mind) caught my attention:

Kentashi said (in part):

If you raise all of your prices WAY beyond competitive rates, people will buy somewhere else, even if your product is slightly better. And their rates are NOT competitive.

Just to chime in here - you can't compare graphics MMORGs to a MUD. And fancy front end or not, custom code or otherwise, Gemstone is and always has been a MUD. If you want to do price comparisons, you'd have to compare against other MUDs. The problem is, the -vast- majority of MUDs are free. There are some pay-to-plays, such as the various Iron Realms games, but they are in the minority. Pay-to-plays might take up, at best, 5% of all the muds on the internet. So you really can't compare anything Simutronics produces with "the competition" because Simutronics has none. People who love graphics, and can't grasp the idea of text, won't be playing Simu games even if Simu offers them for free. And people who love text, and can't handle graphics, won't switch to an MMORPG even if Simu raised the price by 500%. Instead, they might simply move on to one of the HUNDREDS of free muds out there. Or - maybe they'll try another company's pay-to-play, such as Achaea.

Just remember to compare apples to apples, instead of apples to generic food substances.

[thefarmer]

With that line of reasoning, Ardwen (and co.) shouldn't have all those fancy items he got from merchants because EVERYONE should have uber-gear... Hook me up!

I just rolled up a gnome cleric. Since that guy is capped, I should be too. I think it takes away from my RP experience that he can go places I can't. Fix it.

[thefarmer]

Just remember to compare apples to apples, instead of apples to generic food substances.

Yes, Kentashi's original post does seem to resemble Spam, doesn't it?

Methais! Grab me a spamburger hamburger pic..

[The Ponzzz]

Platinum hurts GS because before platinum was around, those merchants and events that take place ONLY in platinum now, would have happened in standard GS. Platinum takes GM resources away from GS standard, lowering the quality of play for the "Core" gamers.

Raise the standard in your CORE game instead of charging players extra for what they SHOULD be getting from the standard game, and you'll have a more successful game.

Heh.

[Stanley Burrell]

I've been playing since before Al Gore invented the internet.

[Alfster]

Well, I first started on AOL and the pay by the hour scheme and that was the year I graduated from college or maybe the year after, so 1994 or 95.

You're PB old!

[Sean of the Thread]

I think PB has him beat by about 6-10 years rofl.

[Latrinsorm]

Any policy that regulates how two characters interact.Once again: griefing, n. You talk so much about how people spend money on this game, but you don't seem to grasp the notion that most people are not going to pay for anarchy.
My main point is that these policies "Obviously" aren't helping the gameplay, since more and more players are leaving.There are more factors at play than policies that have been around for more years than women Bobmuhthol interfaces with a day.

[Revon1]

For all those who disagree with Kentashi, please explain why more and more players are leaving GS. No one should be replying to his post with nothing but an answer to that question since thats the issue he's been addressing. Most of you have been nitpicking at the little things in his arguement instead of rebutting with something solid. Until this happens, in my opinion, he is right. He gave the what and why. Will someone please do the same instead of posting the usual PC bullshit.

[Warriorbird]

Reasons for the decline?

Widely available (and in the case of WoW, pretty good) graphical games. The very nature of a text based medium. Paying at ALL for a text based medium. Lack of marketing for GS. People being jerks to new players. There not being a more "RP" option...I like some of the same things he does I just don't agree with his conclusions.

He's also pretty woefully ignorant about Simu's current goals/status as a company.

[thefarmer]

You mean it's not to buy Whatley a new BMW every year?

[Warriorbird]

I actually mean that it IS on a deep level. You could sort of analogize it to an insurance agency...with GS being the old renewal base Whatley got when he was a new agent...and is now slowly letting decline while he hits a new market with his sappy young agents.

[Kentashi]

Thats not good business. Just because they're getting income/planning to get income from the hero engine doesn't mean they shouldn't still attempt to get the most out of their current ventures.

And besides, many of these decisions and changes took place well BEFORE they were so focused on other things. GS could have seen many more years of good business if they would take a different approach to things.

I'm not offering a solution, because I don't believe they would be able to get back all the players they lost by catering to them after they've already gone. I'm critiqueing their previous decisions. I don't believe the mistakes that they have made are reversable.

[Kentashi]

If I thought the game could be turned around by proper decision-making at this point, I'd buy the rights to GS from Simu myself.

[Fission]

It probably wouldn't go cheap, if they would even sell the rights in the first place, which is pretty doubtful.

As to the decline beforehand, it's pretty much the nature of the beast. The game exists in an increasingly oversaturated market whose overall business model (expressed in very generalized terms) is to design a short-term game that cannibalizes from the already existing customer base.

With each major game that's come out, you could see some major declines in population, even in GemStone. EQ, WoW, and others continue taking their toll.

Despite this all, GemStone would never entirely shut down, so long as even a handful still play. Simutronics still floats MO and AoH, which are lucky to reach double digits in game on a good day. Both DR and GS have a far larger and more lucrative customer base, of course, and are hardly in any sort of danger.

[Kentashi]

See, there's where you and I differ. I don't place GS in the same genre as EQ and WoW. They're different types of games, and attract different types of players. EQ and WoW will NEVER really go after the RP market. That leaves that niche open to be filled by any company with the gusto to focus on it.

Anyhow, this is mostly a pointless debate for the sake of debate, and I appreciate all the constructive opinions and feedback that I have recieved. To those who weren't so constructive in their responses; I forgive you. I expected as much.

Perhaps if I can assist in bringing a similar text-based game to the forefront of the RPing community, I'll pick this debate up again with something to compare GS to.

For those who stated they wished there was more RP-oriented gameplay, I'm going to go ahead and name drop here. Armageddon MUD. It's rough, but it's RP enforced and permadeath. I know the permadeath will turn many of you off, but it's the best RP that I've been able to find in a long, long time. If they had 25% of the playerbase that GS has, it would be an incredible game. Unfortunately they're plagued by the same issues that many games are: Lack of players. Which turns off new players, thereby starting the vicious cycle.

[Warriorbird]

That game's pretty hideous, honestly. It's like Plat in that the existing small player base turns off new players.

:chuckles:

Light years away from profitability.

I don't consider GS and WOW in remotely the same genre...doesn't stop people leaving GS for it though.

[Kyrandos]

I've been reading the boards for the past couple months, and buying/selling goods and items in-game. I just came back to GS after a long hiatus, so I was trying to catch up on various changes that have been made. Now I'm going to say some things that will probably get me flamed, as I've seen others here get flamed for having similar opinions. Also, as much as I loved this game, I will most likely be leaving very soon. Here's why:

I have been around on and off for about 13-14 years. Mostly off, because every time I come back, I am reminded that this is not the game I fell in love with. I also believe most of the people who say that they have also been around that long. The reason? There were MANY more people playing back in the AOL and IA days than there are today. What we have today is simply the empty shell of what GS used to be. The reason? There are many. Graphical RPGs make up a significant portion. But more have to do with simutronics making policy changes in order to maximize profits. Ultimately, the graphical RPGs won't be able to compete with the open-endedness of text-based games for a long time. Too much programming is involved to implement features in a graphical RPG. This basically means that text-based RPG's can keep having more and more features while graphical RPGs never quite catch up. You can simply DO more in a text-based game. The "Roleplay" element is typically much deeper in a text-based game as well. Therefore thats what any text-based game worth a damn should focus on to keep its playerbase. Roleplay, and innovative features. Allow players to RP the type of character they like, and give them the IG mechanics to support that.

Charging RL dollars for events is rediculous and hurts the game. Having "Premium" accounts hurts the game. Having "Platinum" hurts the game. Over the long haul, they are diminishing their profits by doing so. If they would focus all of their efforts on GS prime, and simply raise the cost of prime by 5 dollars a month or so, they would be much better off. If players in standard GS had access to the same events/merchants as everyone else, it would give people more of a reason to WANT to be here. It would also allow them to focus all of their efforts on the main game instead of splitting up their resources, thereby lowering the quality of the standard game tremenously. It would create an atmosphere of "player equality" where the only things that mattered were all IC. Charging silvers IG instead of RL dollars for events would also help to curb inflation as a money sink.

I have also noted an increasing number of ingame policies that restrict players ability to interact with each other. Come on, this is supposed to be a "Role-playing" game. What the hell happened to the RP being the important part? If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it? It would definately make people think twice about drawing down on someone, wouldn't it? Policies barring you from avenging the death of your friend? Also ludicrous.

Gemstone's answer to a dwindling playerbase? More policies to restrict RP and force out the true roleplayers while catering to the crybabies, thus lowering the overall quality of play. Raise prices on everything to make up for the income lost to players leaving, forcing more players to leave. Welcome to the downward spiral. Welcome to the People's Socialist Republic of Gemstone.

Let the flaming begin.


~Kentashi "I'd rather betray the world, than allow the world to betray me."

I see you read my thread. Nice to know there's at least a few of us logical, sound minded people around still.

[JJBummer]

If memory serves me right, AOL permitted 20 hours of free play monthly after which you would go on the hourly rate. I played that way for a long time before the move to the web and I watched my hours to the minute to keep away from those additional charges. No horror stories about $1000 AOL bills coming from me.

If Simu's intent is to put more players in game the idea of having a no pay plan restricted to a small number of monthly hours might be the way to go. You hit those 20 hours and get a logon blocking notice that you will be able to enter the game again in... only 3 more weeks... unless you choose to subscribe. Maybe they could offer that plan after the 30 days of free unlimited play.

I really doubt, however, that these players would enhance anyone's RP experience.

[Kentashi]

If memory serves me right, AOL permitted 20 hours of free play monthly after which you would go on the hourly rate. I played that way for a long time before the move to the web and I watched my hours to the minute to keep away from those additional charges. No horror stories about $1000 AOL bills coming from me.

If Simu's intent is to put more players in game the idea of having a no pay plan restricted to a small number of monthly hours might be the way to go. You hit those 20 hours and get a logon blocking notice that you will be able to enter the game again in... only 3 more weeks... unless you choose to subscribe. Maybe they could offer that plan after the 30 days of free unlimited play.

I really doubt, however, that these players would enhance anyone's RP experience.

I don't see how that is rellevant. I'm talking about the main body of "hardcore" RPers that are no longer around to influence the quality of the game in a good way. I was in no way saying that everyone who played on AOL was an excellent RPer. Simply that the policies in place back then were more condusive to a better RP environment.

And by policies, I wasn't referring to their pricing structure. I made my point already about the premium/platinum fees and I don't think it needs repeating.

[JJBummer]

The relevance of having more players in game during the AOL days versus now, is that in the AOL days, a large base of players could access the game continuously without incurring any charges. More no fee players mean a larger population in game - that's all.

I agree that providing an option for the use of IG silvers to pay for special events could be a desirable thing. But.... hmmm.... where will you come up with the extra silvers to pay for those uber items available at said special event? I guess you could buy some from the PC!

I disagree that the decline in the player base between now and the AOL era is due to RP restrictions. In fact, I think supporting most arguments by making comparisons in the player base of GS (NOW) to the GS (AOL) is pretty lame. Instead of trying to add credibility to your argument by talking about a declining player base just post your rant without it.

[Warriorbird]

Without successful pay events their ability to pay their staff gets even worse.

[Shifted]

I doubt the problem is ability.

[Warriorbird]

More...it'd cut into Whatley's ability to buy exotic sports cars to pay GMs if there were no pay events.

[Shifted]

That sound's closer to the truth

[thefarmer]

[QUOTE=Kentashi;630445]Anyhow, this is mostly a pointless debate for the sake of debate, and I appreciate all the constructive opinions and feedback that I have recieved. To those who weren't so constructive in their responses; I forgive you. I expected as much.
QUOTE]

I didn't see the need to submit 'constructive responses' when the original arguement was so far off base, an opinion, that apparently several other people share.

[Latrinsorm]

For all those who disagree with Kentashi, please explain why more and more players are leaving GS.Anyone who claims to know definitively why over a thousand people made a particular decision is either pretentious to a ridiculous degree or screwing with you. All anyone can do is offer hypotheses, and the hypothesis that GS policy is the chief cause is unsupported: the only "evidence" Kentashi has provided is that he doesn't think there are as many "true" RPers anymore. What he or she has yet to address (non-circularly), as I predicted, was "why 'true roleplay[ing]' necessarily has to involve being a gritty jackass."; in other words, why exactly these allegedly egregious policies force out the "true" roleplayers.

This is putting aside the problem of determining how many "true" RPers are still around, of course. I haven't seen any numbers either way, and I humbly submit that "whoever makes a claim first" is a poor way of deciding facticity.

[Fallen]

I blame perception of a lack of "true" RPers on Plat, great players moving to staff, and the automatic dismissal of people roleplaying "Cliche's" as crap, be it any conceivable stereotype. This last one definitely effects more than just Dark Elf Sorcerers.

"Oh, he is RPing a racist elf. Pssh. Crap."
"Oh, she is an Aelotoi that doesn't speak common. Pssh. Been done."

[That Jay]

Why does Platinum hurt GS?

Duh.

It makes the baby Jesus cry.

[DaCapn]

I think the "lack of true RPers" has more to do with the state of gaming right now. There aren't any other computer games I know of that attempt to focus on roleplaying. It seems a lot of the time that roleplaying means that you can't speak about OOC things. People don't appear to put any value in developing a personality that is not your own and acting it out. I don't mean to speak ill of playing a character that's an extension of yourself; my main character certainly is one. But there's less emphasis on doing things like creating unofficial organizations just for the fun of it. There's a lot of people who play GS who also play WoW, I'm not saying that anyone who plays WoW doesn't roleplay in GS, but being in an environment where you don't care about roleplaying might bleed in from time to time.

I know one thing that can make people tired of roleplaying is that when people find a nuisance in-game, the solution is to kill it not to roleplay back. Instead of interacting, a lot of people tend to just kill a character that rubs them the wrong way and, having exerted dominance, they consider the interaction over and just walk away (or sometimes not walk away and just kill over and over). You see this quite a bit with petty theft. A lot of people seem to be convinced that that theft of 100 silvers is punishable by death.

I think the reason people groan at cliches most of the time is that they don't contribute something new to the cliche, they just pick the cliche as they archetype and convince themselves that they'll do it "better." This, as opposed to inventing a character with a background that caused them to develop a personality, makes them the same old tired cliche. Some can survive on wit alone in the case of witty cold dark elf sorcerer types, but the character isn't necessarily anything new, just the insults they churn out.

[Jazuela]

I think there's such a decline, because Simu has done nothing to attract NEW players. They're not active on any of the prominent MUD forums, and hell, with all that many players, they don't even show up on the first page of the Topmudsites voting list. There are people who have played since they were kids, and are now grown with families and jobs and spouses, and their interests have shifted from being the l33t sorcerer to being supermommy in the playground.

You can't really fault Simu for a change of interest in the player base. After so many years of production, you'd pretty much expect that. But without doing anything to attract NEW players, you will find the playerbase declining. That's just simple math.

[Jazuela]

One more thing: Capn's post speaks pretty clearly to part of the problem:


I think the "lack of true RPers" has more to do with the state of gaming right now. There aren't any other computer games I know of that attempt to focus on roleplaying. It seems a lot of the time that roleplaying means that you can't speak about OOC things.

The state of gaming? No other computer games that focus on roleplaying? See, that's just flat out ignorance. There are HUNDREDS of online games that focus on roleplaying, and in fact there is an entire code base which revolves around it, called MUSH (Multi User Shared Hallucination). The state of gaming isn't really that much different now than it was five years ago. There are more muds out there than ever, but most of them are start-ups that won't last more than a few months, or not even get out of beta testing. There are still thousands upon thousands of people who play text RPGs, with a few trickling in as new mudders every day just as a few trickle out every day to do other things in life.

If you truly think GS is the only text based roleplaying game on the internet, you need to do a little exploring.

As for whoever said something about Armageddon never being profitable, well - I don't think they really care. Since their game is free to play, and will always be free to play, and they have been free to play since 1992. If they really weren't a good game, they probably wouldn't still be open, with one of the more respectably-sized player bases for what is considered an incredibly narrow niche of the mud world.

[DaCapn]

Well I did say "I don't know of" and not "there are none" so, yes it would be ignorance. Could you please compare these user base of games like this to something like WoW? It doesn't matter if there's hundreds of billions of games that push role playing. Look at the number of people playing these games. I don't know if GS necessarily has a relatively high concentration of heavy role players... but if it's anywhere close, that does say a lot about the state of gaming (ie: that it's not focused on heavy roleplaying). I didn't mean to necessarily imply that the state of gaming is changing, but I'd say it has. There has been a much greater focus on large multiplayer online games (consider how console systems are all doing this now).

Consider what falls under the category of RPG these days... in most cases, it is pretty synonymous with "first-person quest." To people it means more about the setting than it does about role playing.

And, I never said that GS is the only text based RPG, I don't think I made any assertions about text-based gaming at all. I've certainly played others. Not many, but a few.

[Kentashi]

When I say "Lack of true RPers", I'm not downing people who play stereotypes. I have no problem with people playing cliche's/stereotypes.

My problem stems from the people who will buy something from you off the net, come to your table, retrieve the item, and say something to the effect of "lol, =) Sweet man, thanks!"

You just have a lot of people speaking/acting completely out of character, and GS staff really doesn't seem to care any more. Seems like they used to.

After seeing things like this happen for month's, I was selling one of my scripted items on the net, and advertised it as such. A GM sent me a message saying I wasn't allowed to say "scripted" on the net. Yet people blatantly give exact numbers that have to do with game mechanics on the net constantly. People are running around saying "lol" and "1337", completely OOC garble, and they're worried about someone saying "scripted" on the net. Wow...talk about having your priorities twisted.

[Jolena]

I can agree with your disgust regarding the use of lol, :), etc. in the game. However, that's really not what your focus was at first when speaking of true roleplayers. You mentioned repeatedly, even emphasising it as your main thought, that people who don't want to deal with someone disarming their weapon and keeping it, killing them and attacking them based on what they perceive as a RP'd reason, etc were not true roleplayers. (Hence, Latrin's question regarding why you think true roleplayers have to be gritty jackasses)

[Skeeter]

You just have a lot of people speaking/acting completely out of character, and GS staff really doesn't seem to care any more. Seems like they used to.
.

I think it's pretty much the same as it's always been.

[Jazuela]

Capn asks me:
Could you please compare these user base of games like this to something like WoW?

As I said previously, no, I can't. Neither can anyone else. You cannot compare text games to graphics games. There is no comparison, because they are completely different genres. It would be like comparing gangsta rap with country-western, or techno-punk to opera (not including Stravinsky, which is pretty techno-punk as far as opera goes).

The only thing they have in common is they're all music. The only thing text-based RPGs and graphics games have in common is they're both games. There's your comparison.

[DaCapn]

You misunderstood... Quantify the number of people that play each of these games then determine by how much one is larger.

[Some Rogue]

You misunderstood... Quantify the number of people that play each of these games then determine by how much one is larger.

Last figure I recall seeing for WoW alone was 8 million subscriptions. I doubt GS is even 8000.

[Warriorbird]

This whole thread seems like an Armageddon ad to me at this point...we need Russian spam bots up in this bitch!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41891000/jpg/_41891198_putin-afp-416.jpg

[Kentashi]

I wasn't emphesising the need to be able to disarm someone's weapon and keep it. I was using that as an example. I also said that I personally wouldn't utilize that particular situation unless there was an extremely viable IC reason. Either way, RP shouldn't be hampered by policy. Thats my main point.

[Jazuela]

Last figure I recall seeing for WoW alone was 8 million subscriptions. I doubt GS is even 8000.

Oh yeah? Well over 8 million people will attend the Big E from the opening date til closing date this year. That makes the Big E more popular than WoW, and therefore whatever they're doing to attract visitors, Gemstone should do too. Because, y'know, we're comparing "things people do" with "things people do."

[DaCapn]

I wasn't trying to make a point about how to promote GS to make it more popular. I'm not really sure that a comparison of the popularity of two different online multiplayer games in a fantasy setting is at all outlandish... especially when you consider my point.

Hopefully this will make what I'm saying perfectly clear... 8 million people play WoW (and more people if you include other RPG-listed games which are generally not a rich roleplaying environment). It's likely that there is a good deal of overlap with GS subscribers. Consider that there might be some level of behavioral influence from playing these non-roleplay-centric games. Maybe they played these games first, maybe they were never that interested in roleplaying, maybe they started playing these games and found out they like powerhunting more than player interactions. Whatever the case, there's a level of people's behavior bleeding into other games whether through habits, developed preference, or just desensitization to OOC interactions.

I'm only assuming you're replying to me because the writer of that comment was replying to me and was making no assertions about the meaning of his statistic.

[Jolena]

I wasn't emphesising the need to be able to disarm someone's weapon and keep it. I was using that as an example. I also said that I personally wouldn't utilize that particular situation unless there was an extremely viable IC reason. Either way, RP shouldn't be hampered by policy. Thats my main point.


Fair enough, however in this section of your OP -



I have also noted an increasing number of ingame policies that restrict players ability to interact with each other. Come on, this is supposed to be a "Role-playing" game. What the hell happened to the RP being the important part? If your character can disarm someone and take their weapon, why shouldn't they be able to keep it? It would definately make people think twice about drawing down on someone, wouldn't it? Policies barring you from avenging the death of your friend? Also ludicrous.

Gemstone's answer to a dwindling playerbase? More policies to restrict RP and force out the true roleplayers while catering to the crybabies, thus lowering the overall quality of play.

The majority of what you mention are things that can, will, and have been misused by players against each other. I've not only witnessed it, but I've also been a victim of it in some form or another.

The problem with not wishing to have policies that restrict what one person considers RP, is that there is little consistency between what one person considers RP and what another considers RP. While you may consider keeping someone's weapon after disarming it a viable solution to a RP situation in certain instances, another may not. And for every person who would only use the disarm (as an example mind you) for what they coin as legitimate reasons based on RP, there is another who would do it just for kicks and because 'they can'. This is why we have to have rules. We simply cannot depend on every single player to have the sense and calm demeanor to think about things before going through with it. Emotions run high, judgement is compromised, and basically.. shit happens.

Unfortunately, it is just not going to happen, Kentashi. You can't have a multi-player game such as Gemstone and not have rules in place to protect the common player against the griefers out there. They will always exist, and therefore, there must always be safeguards in place against them. (ie. policies that might very well restrict our RP choices).

[Kentashi]

There are alternatives. They could have coded it so that people who wanted to disable PvP permenantly on their character could do so, and be flagged as such. Then they would not be able to be the target of disarm, nor would they be able to do it to another player.

Instead of having "Premium" and "Platinum", they could have simply had a non-PK server option. People there wouldn't have to worry about it, and the people who wanted you to have "Real" consequences be possible any time you draw your weapon would be appeased on the other server.

They could also implement a "Warn" timer very easily that would give you say, a 15 second window to sheath your weapon and leave before a player is allowed to attack you. Once that 15 second RT wore off, after you "warned" someone, you'd be able to take any aggressive action towards them you wished for the next, say 10 minutes.

A command like that would allow you to set the stage for a "tense" situation in RP in which both parties understand that hostilities can break out at any time. It would also give people who did not want to get involved in that type of RP the opportunity to leave the room before the timer expired.

These are rough estimations that I came up with on the fly, so please, please, don't knock the idea based on the numbers.

[Warriorbird]

Premium and Platinum make them money. Unless you can figure out a way to convince Whatley to actively make less money...

[Jolena]

They do have that in a way, its called WARN COMBAT. It allows the other player to acknowledge that combat is about to happen, and they either accept or decline. It isn't very effective, either, so I don't consider that a very viable option.

Listen, I applaud your thoughts on this, and I would love to see a 'GS Fallen' type of thing for people who enjoy that type of 'real consequence' and PvP environment. However, those things won't happen anytime soon, if at all. And I honestly don't believe that policies protecting people from griefers and others who just don't understand the concept of abusing a mechanic (or don't care) are the reason for the decline in population for GS.