So.. What would you do?

[thefarmer]

Pagg removes a kelyn-tipped myklian scale lockpick from in his etched lockpick case.
>'Anyone able to open a harbinger box?
You ask, "Anyone able to open a harbinger box?"
>
Pagg settles into the difficult task of picking the lock on a battered gold coffer.
Then...CLICK! It opens!
>
Pagg put a kelyn-tipped myklian scale lockpick in his etched lockpick case.
>
Pagg says, "What age is that."
>shrug
You shrug.
>
Pagg just opened a battered gold coffer.
>
Pagg removes a yellow sapphire from in his gold coffer.
Pagg put a yellow sapphire in his scarab-clasped cloak.
>'Didn't ask it.
You say, "Didn't ask it."
>
Pagg removes a silver wand from in his gold coffer.
Pagg put a silver wand in his scarab-clasped cloak.
>
Pagg gathers the remaining coins from inside his gold coffer.
>
Pagg says, "Well then i cant pick it."
>
Pagg stands up.
>
Pagg just went out.

Personally, I don't think his question is exactly IC. I mean, how am I supposed to know the age of a harbinger? For those that RP, or try to, how would you answer this guy?

[thefarmer]

I asked because I still haven't come up with a decent way to answer this question, and I get this virtually every time I have boxes to open.

[Sean of the Thread]

/whisper ooc

[Methais]

Just say OLD ENOUGH 2 PWN UR FACE IN NUBCAKES L2P LOLZ!!!!1

Then kill him.

[thefarmer]

Well that made me laugh at any rate

[Stunseed]

I'd prolly reply that the harbringer is one of, if not the, most difficult creature in the Castle Darkstone to defeat in battle.

A High Lord certainly wouldn't have a challenge from it, but it would be something slight to remember.

There's two off the top of my head.

[Bobmuhthol]

Any locksmith that has to ask what level the mob is clearly sucks as a locksmith. Don't worry about it.

[Martaigne]

I'd go find someone who knew wtf it was, chances are if they've encountered it, they can pick it.

If you have to ask, you can't pick it.

edit: So yeah, basically what Bob said.

[serra7965]

Anyone know if there is a list out there that puts the bestiary in alphabetical order instead of level order? I know there are great bestiaries out there but none put them in level order. Which makes it hard for a locksmith who doesn't hunt much. I would never ask the age of a critter, although I have whispered ooc questioning what level a critter is. If I ask out loud I usually ask where the person was hunting which makes it easier for me to know what level a critter is. Or I keep the coven's bestiary open and do a quick search.

At some times of day someone is so happy to get their boxes picked they usually have no qualms about ooc whispers questioning the level of the critter.

I have a triple trained character that can pick well over her level. Although I usually don't "advertise" that I can pick such boxes I can pick most things 15 comparable levels above me and have been able to pick +20 ones with lores. Of course I inform the "customer" that I am trying boxes that are at my limit or that I might not be able to get the box once I see the trap or lock "size".

[serra7965]

Sorry seems I haven't really answered the original question. Whisper OOC to the person who said that and explain how silly the question is and why it shouldn't be asked out loud. Then tell them the level of the critter in an ooc whisper. The only way to change it is to teach them how wrong it is. I always try to stay in character myself by not reacting to the person's ooc out loud statements or questions. I usually give them an odd look and continue the conversation in ooc whispers to teach and answer their question. I think just a peer and ignoring it is better than confronting it IC any further than that. Berating someone IC for a OOC comment always seems a waste of time and OOC to me...so therefore I take it to whispers and try to teach someone what they did was considered unacceptable by most if not all.

[Fallen]

I would likely ask them from what creature can they get a box that is at the edge of their limits and judge from there.

[Gan]

Any locksmith that has to ask what level the mob is clearly sucks as a locksmith. Don't worry about it.

/Agreed.

Thats what a picker should determine through the use of lock mastery (measure) the trap and lock.

Its one thing for the customer to volunteer the origination of the boxes being picked... its completely different when a picker has to ask in order to do their job.

I would find another picker who's more competent in their field.

[Some Rogue]

/Agreed.

Thats what a picker should determine through the use of lock mastery (measure) the trap and lock.

Its one thing for the customer to volunteer the origination of the boxes being picked... its completely different when a picker has to ask in order to do their job.

I would find another picker who's more competent in their field.

Sure, because every picker out there is a member of the guild or has enough ranks in LM to measure locks. I'd rather they ask where they are from instead of measuring out each lock and trap. Talk about a pain in the ass and a waste of my time.

I just find it hard to believe you ever picked for the public at all. I mean not asking where a box is from is a sure way to get you or someone else killed or of breaking a pick.

Not being able to measure a lock doesn't make you any less competent, you can still pick whatever your abilities allow for. Hell, I'd argue it takes more knowledge to be able to pick without LM.

[Gan]

Sure, because every picker out there is a member of the guild or has enough ranks in LM to measure locks. I'd rather they ask where they are from instead of measuring out each lock and trap. Talk about a pain in the ass and a waste of my time.

I just find it hard to believe you ever picked for the public at all. I mean not asking where a box is from is a sure way to get you or someone else killed or of breaking a pick.

Not being able to measure a lock doesn't make you any less competent, you can still pick whatever your abilities allow for. Hell, I'd argue it takes more knowledge to be able to pick without LM.

I picked in public a lot. I dont anymore, since I've sold my rogue.

[Jorddyn]

Personally, I don't think his question is exactly IC. I mean, how am I supposed to know the age of a harbinger? For those that RP, or try to, how would you answer this guy?

I wouldn't. And I wouldn't ever allow him to pick any of my boxes. Any locksmith worth his/her salt knows not only what level critters are, but also what they're able to pick, and which are difficult for their level, as I seem to remember harbs being.

Jorddyn

[Zarli]

I'm agreeing with Some Rogue here.. maybe the guy was from another town and not completely familiar with the local critters? I have a 62 train rogue, she can either pick or wedge just about everything out there, but that doesn't mean I want to be breaking my 120k lockpicks or maybe not looking twice for some freakishly high trap on an OTF or Tower box in Illistim. If you want to stay IC, whisper ooc to them about the level and make some IC comment about how strong the critter was or something.

I'd rather have ooc whispers than locksmiths breaking picks and blowing up public areas. Just because a locksmith is Youngish, doesn't mean they shouldn't be picking boxes, give me a break, there's nothing wrong with asking. I might agree that the locksmith in question should have whispered the age thing too, but regardless it could have been taken care of. Maybe he wasn't being IC, but he was being responsible by not picking it if he didn't know.

[CrystalTears]

So we have to know what age every critter is off the top of our head? Yeah right. I know how far I can pick but I don't know the ages of everything seeing as I took a long hiatus. If I'm not sure how old they are, I check my bestiary. If I don't see it there, I whisper asking if they know their level.

[Gan]

My thoughts on being a public picker and not training in lock mastery in the guild would be that its stupid not to. Waste of time or no.

By picking publically for customers, you're in effect providing a service. As a picker you face unknown variables when you attempt to disarm and open a locked box. How many avenues available without going out of character are there for a rogue to determine if the box is pickable.

1. Have a bard loresing it to get a reading on the trap/lock. And apply said reading to the rogue's knowledge of whats pickable based on his current skills.

2. Have the rogue attempt a disarm in order to get a reading (not always accurate) or whip out a pick and make an attempt to get a reading (again, not always accurate).

3. Use the in-game tools given to rogues that do pick as a service/skill as learned in the rogue guild (lock mastery) where they can at the very least, after disarming, break out the calipers and measure the lock.

4. The use of DETECT instead of disarm is also very useful, and an inherent skill that comes with training in disarming traps. That way, the trap isn't set off upon repeated attempts to determine the nature and level of the trap being detected.

The question is WHY would you not want to learn lock mastery if the primary skill of your rogue is picking for customers? And WHY do you rely on asking the customer what age/level the critter was that dropped it? Especially when its becoming more common to see hugely variable lock/trap ranges from critters now. You're also relying on the truthfulness of the person handing you the box. What if they lied (or made a mistake by having more than one type of critter/area box in their pack, you miss a trap completely and kill a bunch of people when the area affect trap goes off? Guess who gets the fine? The picker. Then what?

At the very least change your question to a more in game response and ask what area the box was picked up from OR what type of critter dropped it.

Asking the age/level is OOC and simply stupid.

[Some Rogue]

I wouldn't. And I wouldn't ever allow him to pick any of my boxes. Any locksmith worth his/her salt knows not only what level critters are, but also what they're able to pick, and which are difficult for their level, as I seem to remember harbs being.

Jorddyn

Of course, how's he ever going to learn if he doesn't ask?


I'm agreeing with Some Rogue here.. maybe the guy was from another town and not completely familiar with the local critters? I have a 62 train rogue, she can either pick or wedge just about everything out there, but that doesn't mean I want to be breaking my 120k lockpicks or maybe not looking twice for some freakishly high trap on an OTF or Tower box in Illistim. If you want to stay IC, whisper ooc to them about the level and make some IC comment about how strong the critter was or something.

I'd rather have ooc whispers than locksmiths breaking picks and blowing up public areas. Just because a locksmith is Youngish, doesn't mean they shouldn't be picking boxes, give me a break, there's nothing wrong with asking. I might agree that the locksmith in question should have whispered the age thing too, but regardless it could have been taken care of. Maybe he wasn't being IC, but he was being responsible by not picking it if he didn't know.

Bingo. Said it better than I did. I'm not saying he was right asking about "age" but if you don't ask questions, you're never going to learn. Surprisingly, there are still some people out there that may still be new or new to an area. In the long run, helping these people out with an ooc whisper is a hell of a lot better than chastising them.

[CrystalTears]

I'm training in lock mastery, but it takes a really long time, at least for me anyway. So yes, omg disagreeing with Gan, I'll ask in OOC whispers if they know the age. Sorry if I'm not sacrificing a bad attempt at a trap going off, or breaking my pick just to find out on my own.

[Gan]

I'm training in lock mastery, but it takes a really long time, at least for me anyway. So yes, omg disagreeing with Gan, I'll ask in OOC whispers if they know the age. Sorry if I'm not sacrificing a bad attempt at a trap going off, or breaking my pick just to find out on my own.

h8er :(

Whispering OOC is ok I suppose. I'll roll with that since I also looked up lock levels on .qrs then psinet when I would get a reading from the calipers.

Its the blatant OOC nature of asking out loud the age/level of the critter who dropped the box that, as indicated in the OP, I disagree with.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah but that's not what you were saying. Either they never ask and use their calipers (which not every rogue knows, and not every picker is a rogue) or they suck. :(

[Some Rogue]

The question is WHY would you not want to learn lock mastery if the primary skill of your rogue is picking for customers?



You're assuming all he does is pick. Maybe he was bored with hunting and wanted to just sit and relax awhile?



And WHY do you rely on asking the customer what age/level the critter was that dropped it? Especially when its becoming more common to see hugely variable lock/trap ranges from critters now.


Because they know where they picked it up and I don't?
Do you try and find out what level a hunting ground is before you go running into it?

[DeV]

Its the blatant OOC nature of asking out loud the age/level of the critter who dropped the box that, as indicated in the OP, I disagree with.That happened all the time when I'd pick in public with my rogue. I never had a problem with it, but an OOC whisper was usually the preferred reply and the customer would oblige me that way with no issues 100% of the time. Unless, of course, you're a stickler for RP it's understandable you'd have a issue with him asking the age, but really, it's not all that unusual. Walking off when you didn't know the age does sort of make him look bad, but that also is not out of the ordinary if that's his version of "rp" when he's picking. Maybe he didn't think it worth his time to guage that on his own.

[Zarli]

Even beyond the responsible not blowing up everyone in the room thing.. knowing the level of a critter helps determine which lockpick to use, lower critters we can learn more or get Lock Mastery reps with smaller picks and not with the stronger ones. So there are a ton of reasons why this is a valid question to ask. (still preferably in whispers though, I do agree with that part)

[Savageheart]

It's not really a question that cannot be answered sideways or otherwise while staying in character. The 'want' to do so may be another implication.

Propriety comes into question when talking about 'trains' all the time in respect to 'levels' many would say that 'levels' would be improper but 'trains' can be expressed while maintaining character, hell for more than a decade every time we leveled we literally HAD to see a trainer... It's the same when expressing 'ranks' with skills ect ect ect.

You can answer that question in character, I'm not in total agreement with the lot that says if you get asked, the fuckwit doesn't deserve your time. I will say the rogue in question probably cannot pick the box. Unless of course, he bought the rogue five minutes ago and has never even seen a beastiary let alone outside his own little picking nook. Fact is, that the level of the mob in question dictates some experiance in the land, if you're questioned about it you have your answer.

It's more of a wash in the 20s and 30s possibly even up to 40 as there's a lot of sport to be had if one wishes to travel where said 'picker' might never have left the east tower.

I don't think the question is completely improper or the character MUST SUCK out of hand, there are right and wrong ways to answer it as he worded it. Could have said what level and that would be off side however. It demonstrates a lack of experience and if you are going to spend 5 pages flaming someone you mind as well educate them while your at it.

Hence in the future, teach the children... Save a tree... Eat a beaver.

[Zarli]

you edited just to put in "eat a beaver" didn't you?

[Savageheart]

No the bit about seeing a trainer for more than a decade. I like where your head's at though.

[B2]

I used to have a macro along the lines of "Hi! I don't mean to sound mean, but I just want to give you a bit of advice that will let you fit in a little better here. What you just said is considered out of character. You can read about it at News 1 61."

However, they took away the news item. :(

This is what it said:


http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=9&topic=1&message=26

ROLEPLAYING TIP: OOCISMS

Most players try hard to remain IC (In Character) while in the game to preserve our fantasy atmosphere and to make the world of Elanthia a more vivid place. But there are a lot of terms commonly used that are only thinly veiled OOC (Out of Character), and are in fact pretty much the same thing as just saying the OOC words.

It takes a bit of experience and thought to recognize these types of terms and to learn better ways of phrasing things. It is easier than it seems, and pays off in big ways. To give an idea of the type of things being discussed, I will give some examples of common OOCisms.

Weather: Many players use the term "weather" to refer to game lag. If it's rainy or sunny, it's rainy or sunny for everyone in that town. So saying one character has bad weather while another doesn't, simply makes no sense. Other ways to get the point across are to say things like, "I'm feeling really sluggish at the moment," or "I'm so tired I can barely move," or maybe on a hot summer day, "It's so humid out I just don't feel very peppy."

Gods: The word "gods" is often used to refer to GMs (GameMasters), but again, it usually makes little sense when given any thought. Gods in Elanthia are the Arkati and other immortals, and they rarely are interested or involved in the types of things where this euphemism is used. A "god auction" can better be referred to as a "grand auction," since the Arkati aren't actually selling their stuff! A "god wedding" can be referred to as a "cathedral wedding."

Age: It used to be that character age was connected to their levels, which of course made little sense. Now that we have an actual age system in the game that is separate from levels, it is appropriate for us old timers to wean ourselves away from this euphemism as well. If you ask a character how old they are, don't be surprised to hear they are 143 years old, even if they are only level 5. When talking about creatures, the age of the creature is not likely to be known, but what can be known is that a warrior of lord stature can probably take them on or not.

Trainings: This one can be hotly debated as to how appropriate it is. Many roleplayers strongly feel that trainings are just as OOC as levels, and feel the term has no place here. Others feel that it is an acceptable alternative term. However a player feels about it, it is yet another example of a term that can usually be stated in a more IC manner, given a little thought.

Pages to study: Some players try to translate experience needed into a more IC terminology, usually coming up with things like, "1,234 more pages to study in my book." But again, it is simply a thinly veiled reference that is not really any better than saying, "1,234 experience to level." It might be better to say something along the lines of, "I have been practicing my skills very hard, and feel that I will be seeing some improvement soon."

These are just a few examples of the OOCisms commonly seen within the game. For players who are interested in improving their RP (roleplaying) skills and making their characters into living and breathing Elanthians, it is a good subject to which you can devote a bit of attention. Of course, all of the above situations are also easily solved by using WHISPER to convey information that you want to be exact or is OOC in nature, thus bypassing any need to come up with a clever euphemism.

Discussion on this can take place in the Thoughts on Roleplaying folder.

Zyllah

[Gan]

Yeah but that's not what you were saying. Either they never ask and use their calipers (which not every rogue knows, and not every picker is a rogue) or they suck. :(

OK OK, they dont suck. They just smell real real bad.

:whistle:

[Latrinsorm]

Propriety comes into question when talking about 'trains' all the time in respect to 'levels' many would say that 'levels' would be improper but 'trains' can be expressed while maintaining character, hell for more than a decade every time we leveled we literally HAD to see a trainer... It's the same when expressing 'ranks' with skills ect ect ect.
Any reference to level, however veiled, is OOC.

Most of the time I correct people on the age/level thing I get a snotty response. However, that by no means indicates that we (as a community) should give up on it: there's always the some of the time! :)

[CrystalTears]

OK OK, they dont suck. They just smell real real bad.

:whistle:
I R neva pickin 4 U! :(

[Gan]

I R neva pickin 4 U! :(

I promise if you do I'll throw in a few random boxes from unknown locations just to keep you on your toes. ;)

Actually, that can be an interesting scenario to RP while trying to keep it IC.

LOL, I'm going to think of funny ways to describe where the boxes came from just to see the reactions I get from the pickers that I bring boxes to.

[Savageheart]

Im not sure I agree with you, in fact I know I don't. Mind you where I don't disagree is in the spirit of the thing, not the literal interpretation.

Training as a mechanism was a working fundamental within the system for years. As such, people have become accustomed to mentioning training or needing to see the trainer.. soon blah blah blah and so forth.

It's honestly a religious debate. I personally don't generally talk about trainings or levels except in OOC but I also do not deign to look down my nose at people who do. Seems like effort on no return to me.

It's a waste of time, and my opinion (mine, opinion, not fact, nor assessment of fact) of half the demographic for the 'pure and proper' RP crowd are actually just the pricks who sit around and stun newbies for being disrespectful while licking their various dark devotionals. Being a prick is not RP, (ahem my own personal soapbox agenda!) being an asshat in public and generally disliked by all those who encounter your beneficence is a simple detriment to the community. There have been some great ‘evil’ people in the past name dropping is pointless suffice to say they were all unpredictable and scary as hell and didn’t waste power where it had no purpose. Read a book and learn something! (soapbox rant over!)

There are many many flaws to gauge and measure in terms of RP. This is one that has been around for years, and similar to the word aint... It’s at worst a slight faux pas akin to picking your nose in public… While it may not be proper, shit happens.

[CrystalTears]

I promise if you do I'll throw in a few random boxes from unknown locations just to keep you on your toes. ;)

Actually, that can be an interesting scenario to RP while trying to keep it IC.

LOL, I'm going to think of funny ways to describe where the boxes came from just to see the reactions I get from the pickers that I bring boxes to.
Oh c'mon, as a former picker you should know that mystery/random boxes were a huge pain in the ass and wasn't appreciated. If the words "I don't know where I got it from" comes out of someone's lips regarding a box they picked up, I pass it to someone with said calipers. I'm not wasting my time or destroying my shit. :tongue:

[Methais]

A smart person just tells the picker their mystery box is from hobgoblins. Then sneaks out of the room for a few seconds when they get their lockpick out.

[Tsa`ah]

I promise if you do I'll throw in a few random boxes from unknown locations just to keep you on your toes. ;)

Actually, that can be an interesting scenario to RP while trying to keep it IC.

LOL, I'm going to think of funny ways to describe where the boxes came from just to see the reactions I get from the pickers that I bring boxes to.

When I did play, and would take time to actually sit someplace to pick, I would always ask where a box was from up until the point of it not making a difference. I think it's a good and viable way of asking what skill range the box is rather than asking what level mob dropped it.

It didn't always work simply because there were assholes (just like me) that would drop a trapped witch box in the middle of the hob village as bait for some lowbie. They bring it to you and you check it and don't find anything ... you assume it's safe because it's a "hob" box ... and you blow up the room, or at least yourself.

[Latrinsorm]

Training as a mechanism was a working fundamental within the system for years.Sure was. We used to have a name policy that permitted names like Eyes1, too.
As such, people have become accustomed to mentioning training or needing to see the trainer.. soon blah blah blah and so forth.It's really not that hard to change.
It's a waste of timeAn old man walking along a beach one day notices a youth picking up starfish and flinging them into the sea. The old man asks, "Why are you doing this?" The young man responds, "If left on the beach 'til the noonday sun, they will die." "But," protests the old man, "the beach goes on for miles and there are millions of starfish. How can your effort make any difference?" Looking at the starfish in his hand, the young man replies, "It makes a very real difference to this one."

I'm sorry that you feel that combating ignorance is a waste of time. I can only hope that, as Nietzsche, I can out-shine your influence on those yet to come.

[Warriorbird]

Just relate it to the town.

"They're slightly more difficult than a stone sentinel...if you've heard of those."

[Gan]

Oh c'mon, as a former picker you should know that mystery/random boxes were a huge pain in the ass and wasn't appreciated. If the words "I don't know where I got it from" comes out of someone's lips regarding a box they picked up, I pass it to someone with said calipers. I'm not wasting my time or destroying my shit. :tongue:

OK, write this down as a momentus occasion. I'm conceding the position that you shouldnt ask, especially from the viewpoint of a younger picker who has not invested in the extra benefits of lock mastery in the guild.

I'll still stand on point that the question as to where its from should be kept within genre as much as possible and not what age/level it was dropped from. For the most part I would say that asking the location would be the most appropriate if you're going to ask. Everything should be kept in OOC whispers if more info is needed.

:p

[Savageheart]

I'm sorry that you feel that combating ignorance is a waste of time. I can only hope that, as Nietzsche, I can out-shine your influence on those yet to come.

Let's not make overly dramatic simplifications shall we. You paint ignorance with far too broad a brush. That's your cross to bear, but if you wouldn't mind getting off of it the rest of us could use the wood. I'm building a tree fort.

I have nothing against education of the ‘ignorant’ you seem to deem, in fact it was the point I made in my primary post. Where I draw issue is you so bluntly namesake for an infraction I (personally, me, once again not drawing social norms for you literalists) do not believe it is an infraction that deserves or demands absolute evaluations on one’s character.

If criticism is not tempered with momentum for change it's really not much more than narcissistic masturbation. Then again, that freely explains most of your post to be honest... The Ubermensch reference is a bit tough to swallow there falsche freunde. Although Nietzsche himself was a supremacist, sociopath where the brunt of your comparison fails he was also definitively nihilistic...

Until his death where he supposedly recanted, but then hey who wouldn't hedge their bets?

/tag

[CrystalTears]

I'll still stand on point that the question as to where its from should be kept within genre as much as possible and not what age/level it was dropped from. For the most part I would say that asking the location would be the most appropriate if you're going to ask. Everything should be kept in OOC whispers if more info is needed.

:p
I'll agree with that, as you shouldn't ask about age/level about anything really out in the open. If you must know, ask in OOC whispers.

Seriously, asking for the area and/or the critter it dropped from is more times than not quite sufficient. However there will be times that someone just honestly doesn't know how difficult an area/critter will be and will ask.

If you can't figure out how to answer RPwise, whisper it. That's always been my mantra anyway.

[Some Rogue]

I'll still stand on point that the question as to where its from should be kept within genre as much as possible and not what age/level it was dropped from. For the most part I would say that asking the location would be the most appropriate if you're going to ask. Everything should be kept in OOC whispers if more info is needed.

:p

And I don't think anyone was arguing against that....noob!

:club:

[Jorddyn]

Of course, how's he ever going to learn if he doesn't ask?


1. Bestiary.

2. Paying attention. When I was a l'il picker, I had no clue what level harbs were, but I knew I couldn't pick them. When I left, I knew exactly what they were and how their locks ranged, but I had no idea what level stuff in the rift was, but I knew I couldn't pick it. Picking is a progressive thing - you learn step by step what you can and cannot handle. Tossing someone into the tower with a bundle of 125k lockpicks and no clue how to disarm specific traps is dangerous, expensive, and gives all locksmiths a bad name.

3. Asking location.
4. Asking a fellow locksmith if they think you can handle it.

The biggest problem I find isn't in true newbies who seem to be willing to learn, but rather in bought lord-level characters, and alts. They don't want to listen to what other locksmiths try to tell them, whether the advice is good or not. They know everything. Except, apparently, what train certain critters are.

Jorddyn

[Some Rogue]

Of course, how's he ever going to learn if he doesn't ask?




3. Asking location.
4. Asking a fellow locksmith if they think you can handle it.
Jorddyn

:whistle:

[thefarmer]

Let's not make overly dramatic simplifications shall we. You paint ignorance with far too broad a brush. That's your cross to bear, but if you wouldn't mind getting off of it the rest of us could use the wood. I'm building a tree fort.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh.

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks the rogue was OOC. Thanks for all the assorted suggestions, though I still think Methais' takes the award for best.

[Latrinsorm]

Where I draw issue is you so bluntly namesake for an infraction I (personally, me, once again not drawing social norms for you literalists) do not believe it is an infraction that deserves or demands absolute evaluations on one’s character.Uh, I didn't use the adjective form for a reason: a person afflicted by ignorance does not an ignorant person make. Again, I'm talking about combating ignorance.
If criticism is not tempered with momentum for change it's really not much more than narcissistic masturbation.To lead a being by the hand is to infantilize. To show the rightness of a way and leave it at that is treating someone as an equal.
Although Nietzsche himself was a supremacist, sociopath where the brunt of your comparison fails he was also definitively nihilistic... Nietzsche would seriously punch you in the mouth if he heard you calling him a nihilist. I think he'd like the ring of "supremacist" unqualified, though. For the curious, he specifically addresses this sort of thing in the Gay Science, section 321.
Until his death where he supposedly recanted, but then hey who wouldn't hedge their bets?The last 11 years of Nietzsche's life were spent as a husk due to syphillis or something like it. He could no more recant than he could state his own name.

[Savageheart]

Point One: Too lazy to do multiple quotes
You're quibbling words and further disemble as your stance maintains that I am somehow in opposition to the combatance of ignorance.

Point Two: While Nietzsche himself did not define himself as Nihilistic not because much of his teachings did not center around the absence of value and truth but rather because the narcisistic screw top didn't brand the idea. He preaches his own forms through various dialogues with only one precondition which deviates.

The existence of hope, which to be honest he probably only did for the chicks. Mind you this becomes a religious debate, most 3rd year philosophy students fall in love with Nietzsche due to the appreciation for skeptisism and cynisism. Most people grow out of it though...

Point Three: More intellectual masturbation without representation. I'll not say your quote isn't better though, however it's not a disagreement but an assesment of agreement, you still offer critisism with no construction. As is your right as an internet philosopher of course.

Point Four: Yes but no

Point Five: Siph is bad m'kay

[Some Rogue]

Jesus Christ this thread got retarded in a hurry.

[Latrinsorm]

You're quibbling words and further disemble as your stance maintains that I am somehow in opposition to the combatance of ignorance.I'm in opposition to you misinterpreting my position. I didn't say what you weren't, I said what I wasn't.
While Nietzsche himself did not define himself as Nihilistic not because much of his teachings did not center around the absence of value and truth but rather because the narcisistic screw top didn't brand the idea.This sentence is a little fractured, but what I can get from it suggests I should have been more clear: Nietzsche was not in any way a nihilist. Nietzsche would be furious to hear anyone call him a nihilist. Nietzsche's writings are not in any way nihilistic.
More intellectual masturbation without representation. ... you still offer critisism with no construction.I'm not really sure what this is addressed to, but if you consider treating someone like an infant treating them as an equal, I would suggest you stop debasing yourself.

[Zarli]

Jesus Christ this thread got retarded in a hurry.

:yeahthat:

[Tsa`ah]

Jesus Christ this thread got retarded in a hurry.

About the moment some closet emo dragged Nietze's corpse into a gemstone debate.

[Savageheart]

To be fair, we're not sure he wears makeup just that he cuts himself.

Mmm base humor.

To edit, because I decided I wanted to rise to the jibe... I understood your innitial statements, they are however baseless, disconnected, grandiose poppycock with a little name dropping and straw man side tracks. While stupid is not my first language, I can generally amble through at a medium pace.

To close, your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

Re-Edit: Also for the love of god please someone edit my sentance structure, I pay some asshole good money to do that outside of the internets if I can get some pro bono in I'm all for it!

[Deathravin]

;Bestiary Harbinger

[Deathravin]

Pagg says, "What age is that."

Deathravin says, "I didn't buy it dinner and ask about it's childhood; I killed it, slowly and painfully... Why would I know how old it was? It's not a tree I couldn't count the rings."

Pagg says, "What level was it?"

Deathravin says, "Ground level? What? was it supposed to be floating when I killed it."



The problem with this is that there is no good way to ask or answer that question. Maybe they should have a way to gague a critter's difficulty like locks:

>Describe Kobold
Smaller than a dwarf and even many halflings, kobolds have ruddy skin and a hairless pate topped with small horns. Long-limbed for its size, the kobold eschews any display of brute strength and relies on what agility it pretends to have. The kobold stares at its enemies with beady little black eyes to size up its foe.
The Kobold seems absurdly simple to dispatch.

>Describe Harb
The Sheruvian harbinger is a handsome woman with hypnotic eyes and fair skin. Her demeanor appears emotionless, but you can see some sort of evil fire burning within those dark pupils. A sleek, black breastplate covers most of her torso, and you can see it is made of fine quality. The mere look of the harbinger reminds most people of the tales of the Harbinger of Chaos, spawned forth to do great evil.
The Sheruvian harbinger seems very difficult to elimiate.


Level 0-5 - absurdly simple
Level 6-10 - very simple
Level 95-100 - unbelievebly difficult
etc etc.

That way we would have a way to ask AND answer this question.

Pagg says, "How difficult are Harbringers?"
Deathravin says, "Very difficult"
Pagg says, "Pass them here, I can get them for you."


As a rogue, I almost never ask what I'm picking and I die very very rarely. The problem is, you need to pick your customer, not the box. Fame, Profile, Look... All excellent for finding out what they're giving you. You get a very good estimate of level by looking at fame if they have it on. Profile can tell you a lot, especially their 'hardest mob ever faught' thing. Looking can tell you if they're level 0, 5, 10, 15, 20+ etc. Great Lord > 40, High Lord > 60... It's not hard to find out what level your mark is. If i'm not >80% sure what they are, I'll measure the first box and base all my picking for them off that.

[Fallen]

Invasions tend to skew the Hardest Foe Defeated thing.

[Deathravin]

Ya, Deathravin's right now is ... 'a ghost'
From those box ghosts a few months ago.

Just means I can put on newbee gear and pull off being level 2.