Redux?

[kgolfer]

Can anyone give me an approximate % redux for my ranger at two different points in his life. Both points are wearing hauberk.

TRAIN 75

XXXX swings a sparte at you!
AS: +476 vs DS: +297 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +16 = +224
... and hits for 45 points of damage!
Left leg ripped from socket at the knee!
You fall screaming to the ground grasping your mangled left leg!
You are stunned for 8 rounds!

XXXX swings a sparte at you!
AS: +531 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +32 = +315
... and hits for 68 points of damage!
Lucky shot rips through bone and muscle sending left leg flying.
You fall screaming to the ground grasping your mangled left leg!
You are stunned for 10 rounds!


TRAIN 100

XXXXX swings a toporok at you!
AS: +382 vs DS: +38 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +30 = +403
... and hits for 53 points of damage!
Powerful slash just cracks your shield arm!
You are stunned for 2 rounds!

XXXXX swings a toporok at you!
AS: +457 vs DS: +35 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +6 = +457
... and hits for 81 points of damage!
Tremendous blow crushes skull like a ripe melon.

[Jayvn]

ya i'm pretty sure you'll need more than 2 swings per to figure out your redux ;) I bet zaaf hasn't read this yet either.

[Celephais]

They're high endroll hits, so it's actually not very hard to figure out.

I don't have any of my data with me so I can't do it, but you take the damage shown (45) and subtract the damage that the crit (Left leg ripped from socket at the knee!) adds (this is the data I don't have access to). Then you can take the damage you were supposed to take (Handaxe vs Haubrek = .240 * 124 = 29.76 .. no idea on rounding... so we'll say 30). If the crit was say 20 damage... you took 25 instead of 30 and it was "reduxed" 16%.

[Celephais]

Thank god for google cache...
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:VKinGDBzdfgJ:www.xygon.net/redux.html+redux+site:xygon.net&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

so that crit was a 30 pointer... you took only 15 damage instead of 30, giving you 50% redux... according to Xygon:
1st hit: 49.6%
2nd hit: 45.74%

3rd hit: 40.87%
4th hit: 46.31%

[Khariz]

Thank god for google cache...
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:VKinGDBzdfgJ:www.xygon.net/redux.html+redux+site:xygon.net&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

so that crit was a 30 pointer... you took only 15 damage instead of 30, giving you 50% redux... according to Xygon:
1st hit: 49.6%
2nd hit: 45.74%

3rd hit: 40.87%
4th hit: 46.31%

Unfortunately, Xygon's calculator is calculating defense factor reduction and not Damage Reduction under the current system. When Latrin comes by this thread, he will give you as close to today's numbers as he can.

[kgolfer]

Yeah, I knew about Xygon's calculator being not right now. Thank you though for trying.

Waits patiently for smarter people on GS mechanics to show up.......



Very curious on the difference in redux, went from basically 80 to 100 spells at cap. I would like to know how much of a difference that makes.

[Latrinsorm]

kgolf, it would really help my predicative capabilities if you could give me a shot of your skills.

As Khariz pointed out, Xygon's calculator is bollocks now for any hit that has crit damage. Redux requires the same resources to calculate as it did before, the order is just a little different:
1) Calculate unreduced raw damage (DF * (endroll - 100)).
2) Look up unreduced crit damage (table).
3) Compare to total reduced damage (...and hits for) as (1 - reduced/unreduced).

There are complications to this that I won't go into here involving crit damage ratio and other things, but this simple process will give you a pretty good bead on your redux if you have at least 10-15 hits.

I'm getting a read of .255 on the first two shots and the second is .342. However, the CDRs that I mentioned before are wildly different (.5 compared to .2), which can have a significant impact on the results: using .5 for the second set of hits would result in .271 RF.

Now, there are at least three things going on here: change in level, change in spell penalty, change in skills. All three have significant impacts on redux. I hope the thing attacking you was a PC in each case, because creatures can be extremely wonkifying (natural damage weighting, for instance).

So, to sum up: there's probably not a huge difference between the two set-ups, which makes the spell penalty look pretty nasty. In general, even the same amount of redux points at a higher level will result in higher RF. Anyhoo, I'll wait for more information and continue if need be.

[kgolfer]

Info sent to your private email. I can get more shots if you need anymore.

[kgolfer]

They were all from PC's.

[kgolfer]

All shots are using full plate armor.

What's the redux now?



xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +406 vs DS: -46 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +22 = +486
... and hits for 46 points of damage!
Large gash to your right arm, several muscles torn.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!


xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +331 vs DS: -49 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +16 = +408
... and hits for 40 points of damage!
Feint to the left goes astray as you dodge!
Deep gouge to your back!



xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +406 vs DS: -49 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +57 = +524
... and hits for 55 points of damage!
Internal organs bruised.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!




xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +315 vs DS: -46 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +57 = +430
... and hits for 42 points of damage!
Smooth slash to your hip!
Nice crunching sound.



xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +390 vs DS: +2 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +19 = +419
... and hits for 41 points of damage!
Grazing blow to your stomach.
The guiding force leaves xxxx.




xxxx swings a mithril sabre at you!
AS: +390 vs DS: -1 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +79 = +482
... and hits for 46 points of damage!
Slash to your right arm!
Slices neatly through the skin and meets bone!
You are stunned for 1 rounds!

[Latrinsorm]

I've decided that because CDR can have such a marked effect it only makes sense to define a standard CDR value against which any particular set of hits is compared against. However, a standard CDR value depends rather heavily on crit divisor (and therefore redux factor) and situation: if the character in question isn't going to be subjected to anything above a rank 5 crit rank, why take them into account? Lesser concerns involve crit type % and body part %.

Somewhat (but not completely) arbitrarily, I've decided upon .24 as the standard CDR value. This is a very rough average of ranks 0 through 9 (stopping where rank 10 would occur) weighted equally across body parts (not a good approximation) and weapon crit types (an ok approximation) as well as across redux factors from 0 to .6ish (which covers the overwhelming majority).

With that in mind, here are the values for kgolf's redux, listed in reverse chronological order:

.375 (operating under the assumption that the sabre in question is a scimitar, it would be .317 for an estoc.)
.347
.202

[senorgordoburro]

Sorry to steal your thread, but I remember reading somewhere that if a rogue has more than 1x training in magic related fields that it cancels all redux. Is this true at all, and if so does it also apply to post cap as well?

[Stunseed]

Anything under 2x in spells gives you the mathematical chance. Once you hit 2x, it is not possible.

[senorgordoburro]

And that is for spells only? MIU, AS, and HP don't lower it?

[Bobmuhthol]

Right, the only penalty to redux is spell ranks.

Edit: The logic behind it is that if you have spell ranks, you have spells, and therefore have an advantage over a square with 0 spell ranks. As such, you're not allowed to have as high redux. MIU, AS, and HP are all secondary skills as opposed to means of combat.

[kgolfer]

Next set of numbers:

91 spells, falchion vs plate armor


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +295 vs DS: -3 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +67 = +386
... and hits for 39 points of damage!
Slash to your chest!
That heart's not broken, it's only scratched.


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +220 vs DS: -3 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +91 = +335
... and hits for 33 points of damage!
Banged your right shin.
That'll raise a good welt.


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +345 vs DS: -6 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +97 = +469
... and hits for 52 points of damage!
Slash to your chest!
Breathe deep, it'll feel better in a minute.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!

XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +254 vs DS: -50 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +32 = +357
... and hits for 30 points of damage!
Jarring blow to your back.


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +179 vs DS: -50 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +75 = +325
... and hits for 29 points of damage!
Slash to your right leg hits high!
Kinda makes your knees weak, huh?


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +179 vs DS: -58 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +91 = +349
... and hits for 28 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
You take a deep breath.


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +254 vs DS: -58 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +68 = +401
... and hits for 38 points of damage!
Slash to your shield arm!
Shears off a thin layer of skin!

XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +400 vs DS: -58 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +14 = +493
... and hits for 54 points of damage!
Blow to head!
Look at the pretty stars!
You are stunned for 3 rounds!


XXXXX swings a black imflass falchion at you!
AS: +234 vs DS: -65 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +57 = +377
... and hits for 38 points of damage!
Downward slash across your right thigh!
Might not scar.
You are stunned for 1 rounds!

[Anebriated]

Are you still penalized more for learning multiple spell circles even if its the same number of total spells?

[Latrinsorm]

That doesn't appear to be the case. However, the spell penalty is not yet very well understood, so there could very well be subtleties I'm not picking up on yet.

As to the numbers themselves, I'll pop them through later today when I get back on campus.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok, so here's what we have so far:

100 spells - .347
97.5 spells - .375
91 spells - .380

The step appears to be between 98 and 100. I would have predicted it at 96, which makes me pretty happy. Also, .347 * 13 / 12 = .376, which is pretty dang close to the values we're getting for the second step, which makes me exceedingly happy.

Thanks again for the info, kgolf!

[kgolfer]

Latrinsorm, new numbers sent to your email. Thank you.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok, the number for 80 spells is .404 but there was also a change in redux skills:
1 less Armor Use, 21 more CM, 2 more dodge, for a total of 22 more secondary ranks, for a total of +8.8 redux points (which generally does nothing at this point).

We also had a point of .376 for the previous spell penalty step, so .376 * 13 / 2 = .407, so that's not too bad at all! It would have been better if the measured number was a snoodge higher, but all in all the step system is holding together pretty well: I would have predicted the step at 77 spells rather than 80, but off by 3 doesn't bother me too much.

Thanks again, kgolf!

[Deathravin]

In case anybody's trying to figure out a better redux formula:


Expr: 852994 Level: 27
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Constitution (CON): 78 (24) ... 78 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 82 (16) ... 82 (16)
Agility (AGI): 74 (17) ... 74 (17)
Discipline (DIS): 68 (9) ... 68 (9)
Aura (AUR): 78 (14) ... 78 (14)
Logic (LOG): 77 (3) ... 77 (3)
Intuition (INT): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Wisdom (WIS): 69 (4) ... 69 (4)
Influence (INF): 66 (3) ... 66 (3)

Half Krovlin Rogue:
(at level 27), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 156 56
Ranged Weapons.....................| 158 58
Ambush.............................| 156 56
Physical Fitness...................| 114 28
Dodging............................| 156 56
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Magic Item Use.....................| 78 17
Harness Power......................| 45 9
Survival...........................| 15 3
Disarming Traps....................| 184 84
Picking Locks......................| 156 56
Perception.........................| 156 56
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 70 15

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

That didn't get Redux. But I added 1 rank of PF and I got the redux.