Claidh Ambushing

[Sypher]

I've switch to using a plain old claidh (boring I know!) but just wondering I can't aim with this thing for the life of me (and I'm fully double in CM and bonded to it)... so how many ranks of ambush would I need to consistently aim a claidh?

[Khariz]

I've switch to using a plain old claidh (boring I know!) but just wondering I can't aim with this thing for the life of me (and I'm fully double in CM and bonded to it)... so how many ranks of ambush would I need to consistently aim a claidh?

I find my sweet spot, where I get 70% or so accuracy is about 25 ranks of ambush. I have 30 at the moment just for giggles.

[Sypher]

Interesting, someone has said perception does nothing for open ambushing...I guess thats incorrect. I'm going to assume though that whether or not perception plays a factor, training in ambushing will have a far heavier affect on ambushing accuracy?

[Khariz]

Interesting, someone has said perception does nothing for open ambushing...I guess thats incorrect. I'm going to assume though that whether or not perception plays a factor, training in ambushing will have a far heavier affect on ambushing accuracy?

Someone did extensive research on this, and that's where I got the perception thing. It was a chart and it showed stuff like this.

Level 5, 0x perception, 0x ambushing, 2x cm, 20% accuracy

It showed how bonding, and wspec improved accuracy, and then CM and Perception and ambush.

The point of the research at the time was to show that ambush training had diminshing returned, and that as one gained levels and gained more CM ranks, the level that the ambush skill had to be at to get the maximum possible (diminishing returns plateau) ambush accuracy out of a claid would acually lower over time.

It showed that lower level characters would gain from having higher ambush, but that they could back off of it over time and it would still be able the same. I still find that even in the mid 80's I like to have my 25 ranks. The claidhmore is just so stupidly hard to aim that I'll take all the help I can get. Not going to go above 30 though. I pumped it to 50 ranks once just to examin the difference, and over 500 kills was only getting an increase of about 2% accuracy from 30 ranks. That just wasn't enough to justify the point cost.

[Latrinsorm]

I haven't seen the research Khariz is talking about, but I'm pretty sure it was correct in noting that aiming is a per rank rather than per [rank per level] proposition. I would be surprised to hear that perception affected open aiming, though.

[Danical]

from officials:

Ambush may be used with hiding or while in the open. When used from hiding, successful strikes may be much more lethal, and an opponent's defenses may be substantially reduced. The Ambush, Stalking and Hide, and Perception skills are recommended. When used from the open, the Ambush and Combat Maneuvers skills aid in achieving success.

[Drew]

I would be surprised to hear that perception affected open aiming, though.

As would I. It's one of those accepted bits of lore.

[Khariz]

As would I. It's one of those accepted bits of lore.

Well honestly, I've never done any testing as to perception, as it doesn't matter to me. I 1x in it for life, regardless of it's affect on ambushing.

CM and Ambush skill have a noticeable, trackable effect though, with a plateau on Ambush from what I've noticed.

[Latrinsorm]

Where did you see this research, Khariz? I would have assumed Warrior boards (due to the bonding comment) or the Research folder, but I read those exhaustively on the officials.

[Khariz]

I was definately made aware of this from the warrior forum ont he officials. Someone linked something external. I'm looking for the info. I think it's on my out of commission computer. Trying to dig it up.

[Sypher]

Wait are you sure Khariz that continued ambush training has no effect after a "plateau". Ambush is expensive as heck for my warrior and getting rid of it from my training plan at 30 ranks will really free up some ranks... just need to be positive that a 30 to 50 rank gain shows only marginal improvement.

Further doesn't bow aiming cap out at 95% accuracy...does this mean claidh aiming can't get to this level of accuracy? a Longbow to the eye is similar to a claidhs effects.... actually... come to think of it since a 10x AS bonus is easy to get with a longbow and 10x claidhs don't even exist I would say ranged is better for crit killing. Unless, there is a greater difference in AS gained from melee then ranged. (its calculated differently thats all I know).

[Khariz]

Wait are you sure Khariz that continued ambush training has no effect after a "plateau". Ambush is expensive as heck for my warrior and getting rid of it from my training plan at 30 ranks will really free up some ranks... just need to be positive that a 30 to 50 rank gain shows only marginal improvement.

Further doesn't bow aiming cap out at 95% accuracy...does this mean claidh aiming can't get to this level of accuracy? a Longbow to the eye is similar to a claidhs effects.... actually... come to think of it since a 10x AS bonus is easy to get with a longbow and 10x claidhs don't even exist I would say ranged is better for crit killing. Unless, there is a greater difference in AS gained from melee then ranged. (its calculated differently thats all I know).

Yes, I'm 100% certain that ambush training, used in conjuction with open ambushing has a spot where you start getting diminishing returns.

The problem is, that level at which you get diminishing returns depends on what train you are (because of CM ranks, having Wspec, and having full bond). You can't just say "30 ranks is where the plateau is".

Something like "A level 75 warrior with 2x CM, full wspec and full bond, will only see realistic additional benefit to aiming a claidhmore with 30 ranks of ambush or less" is more realistic.

But it might be that a level 30 warrior sees trackable benefit for up to 55 ranks of ambush.

From my own data with myself, which I just blew a fixskill to test:

Level 80, 2x cm, 15 ranks ambush, aiming at left leg with claidhmore 50 times at earth elementals = .62

Level 80, 30 ambush ranks, aiming at left leg with claidhmore 100 times at earth elementals = .73

Level 80, 50 ambush ranks, aiming at left leg with claidhmore 100 times at earth elementals = .74

The TPs from 15 to 30 made sense to me. The TPs from 30 to 50 did not.

Also note that only hits that successfully struck the critters were used. The "deflected off their side" BS that only happens on elementals wasn't counted in the swing count.

Also interestingly, with a Maul, I had nearly or above 10% higher accuracy per category. (Without being bonded to it).

[Sypher]

Hm, all very interesting.

[Sthrockmorton]

When used from hiding, successful strikes may be much more lethal, and an opponent's defenses may be substantially reduced.

Has anyone done any research on how much crit is added when ambushing from hiding? That added crit is the sole purpose I'm fully 2x'd in ambushing. Almost every crittable creature is a one shot kill for me (head shot, unless its a super-sized critter, then its leg/head since I can't reach).

But now you guys have me wondering if the Law of Diminishing returns applies to the crit factor with the same harsh decline as the aiming.

I know with a claid, any extra crit is moot, but I want to hijack this thread while people are thinking about it. Can anyone help me determine if I should just back it down to 1x in ambushing?

(Currently 72 trains with 148 ranks in ambush)

Thanks for any help.

[Sthrockmorton]

Wait are you sure Khariz that continued ambush training has no effect after a "plateau". Ambush is expensive as heck for my warrior and getting rid of it from my training plan at 30 ranks will really free up some ranks... just need to be positive that a 30 to 50 rank gain shows only marginal improvement.

Further doesn't bow aiming cap out at 95% accuracy...does this mean claidh aiming can't get to this level of accuracy? a Longbow to the eye is similar to a claidhs effects.... actually... come to think of it since a 10x AS bonus is easy to get with a longbow and 10x claidhs don't even exist I would say ranged is better for crit killing. Unless, there is a greater difference in AS gained from melee then ranged. (its calculated differently thats all I know).

Keep in mind "accuracy" and "crits" are different. With a longbow, you may get 95% accuracy, meaning you'll "hit" what you're aiming for that often, but the amount of damage done is extremely different. Not all 95% are going to be crit kills. With the claid, and 75% accuracy, the majority of those 75% hits, are going to be a kill, since not many creatures or people (without extreme padding) can take a shot from a claid to the head and live.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong in stating the difference between "accuracy" and "crits". I'm just working off logic and not numbers

[Latrinsorm]

I would say ranged is better for crit killing.Claidhs are actually pretty bad for crit killing, so yeah, ranged probably pwns them. Mauls, on the other hand...
Level 80, 30 ambush ranks, aiming at left leg with claidhmore 100 times at earth elementals = .73

Level 80, 50 ambush ranks, aiming at left leg with claidhmore 100 times at earth elementals = .74Incidentally, there should be +/- .1 error bars on those numbers. Yes, seriously.
Has anyone done any research on how much crit is added when ambushing from hiding?Yes. GILCHRISTR on the officials did some research up to about 20 ranks with a result of 1 point of weighting per 4 ranks of ambush. It's obnoxiously difficult to back out crit weighting, so nobody has rigorously extended that research. However, I've gotten a report from the player of a capped character that suggests the progression continues all the way to 200 ranks.
With the claid, and 75% accuracy, the majority of those 75% hits, are going to be a killMajority yes, but it's perhaps not as overwhelming a majority as you might think. I don't have the slash/crush ratios of a claidhmore handy, but I would be very surprised to find a sword had a higher crush than slash rate, and on a rank 9 crit max a claidh has a 20% chance of not killing with a slash. Reckoning a 50/50 split on crit type, that's a 10% chance on every rank 9 headshot of not getting a kill.

[Khariz]

Oh yes, my margin of error for only testing 100 times is significant.

I just wanted to satiate myself that I didn't need more than 30 ranks of ambush, and that I did.

[Cademus]

Claid is closer to 75 slash and 25 crush,it has a ton of slash from my experience.

Even if it's 50/50. That 10% must be further degraded by the fact it's only 75% MAX (from Khariz's data) probability hit to the left leg (it's probably much lower for the head) thats a 67.5 % chance of LEGGING the creature not killing, if you go for the head or neck the number probably drops to 50% for a KILL. At Khariz's level a ranged user can hit 95% of the time to the eye with a consistent 100% puncture damage which means I only need a rank 7 crit to kill and not a rank 9. Thats 95% chance to kill ALL the time. Which is nuts imho.

[Khariz]

Claid is closer to 75 slash and 25 crush,it has a ton of slash from my experience.

Even if it's 50/50. That 10% must be further degraded by the fact it's only 75% MAX (from Khariz's data) probability hit to the left leg (it's probably much lower for the head) thats a 67.5 % chance of LEGGING the creature not killing, if you go for the head or neck the number probably drops to 50% for a KILL. At Khariz's level a ranged user can hit 95% of the time to the eye with a consistent 100% puncture damage which means I only need a rank 7 crit to kill and not a rank 9. Thats 95% chance to kill ALL the time. Which is nuts imho.

That's why I mentioned mauls though. Way better chance to hit same area. 100% crush. Way better chance to kill.

But don't discount 40 points of crit-weighting either. I know we are talking statistics here, but, it's not to shabby.

[Cademus]

There was a claidh-weighted maul wandering around the merchant boards. A 9.5x claid-weighted maul exists. I'll never go hunting with such a weapon even if I'm bonded to it.

[Khariz]

There was a claidh-weighted maul wandering around the merchant boards. A 9.5x claid-weighted maul exists. I'll never go hunting with such a weapon even if I'm bonded to it.

That one's a mattock. Close enough though.