My bard, check it over for me?

[MrTastyHead]

From birth until whatever level I can get to by the end of the 30
days, I plan on this:

*Quick Leveling Bard*

Str: 70
Con: 50
Dex: 50
Agi: 60
Dis: 100
Aura: 100
Log: 90
Int: 20
Wis: 20
Inf: 100

2x Edged
1x PT
1x HP
2x Songs
1xish Manipulation (All spare points after the others go here)

That will take pretty much all of his TPs, obviously.

I didn't forget armor, shields, CM, or dodge. I'm not going to train
them, both for RP reasons that you will see further down, and because
I honestly don't think that hunting through the teens is that hard if
you know what you're doing.

2xing in songs will have 1007 giving it's full +20 bonus and 1003/1010
giving a combined DS of +25 just by level 10.

I'm hoping that his CS will be high enough that he can start using
1002 to shatter weapons by the time he's hunting things with weapons.
At what point will weapons start to pop regularly?

I think that plan is pretty sound, but please give me any suggestions
for improvement or correct me if I am wrong somewhere. This brings me
to the part that I have questions about. At the end of the 30 days,
he will transform into...duh duh duh DUUUUHHH...

*UBER RUNESTAFF PURE BARD!!!*

Stats at 0:
Str: 40
Con: 40
Dex: 30
Agi: 20
Dis: 90
Aur: 100
Log: 70
Int: 70
Wis: 100
Inf: 100

Train for life:
1x Arcane Symbols
1x Magic Item Use
1x Mana Control: Elemental
1x Mana Control: Mental
1x Mental Lore: Manipulation
2x Harness Power
1.?x Spellsongs

Train until done:
Physical Training
Climbing
Swimming

All extra TPs into spellsongs.

First, let me just say in the nicest way possible that I don't want to
hear any too hard, can't be done kind of comments. I just want pros
and cons and helpful information, please.

Second, I am no stat cruncher. I suck at it and really have no
interest in learning all of the finer points. I would greatly
appreciate any tweaking to improve my starting stats, but obviously
they are set in the way that I will need them to stay, more or less.
I need tons and tons of MTPs, and the starting mana, and the song
effectiveness.

Now, as a chosen scholar of The Grandfather, my little awesomeness here will
be a real pure bard, robes and runestaff. I know robes will suck
sometimes, but I figure regular pures can do it, so can I.

Songs will be 1.5x by around level 20. I assume that the best cap
spell training for a pure bard is 128 songs, 74 MnE. Am I wrong in
that assumption? If not, at what point will it become more
benificial, bardic CS wise, to start putting the extra spell ranks
into MnE?

Does song of mirrors give just the evasion bonus of the dodge skill,
or just the DS bonus, or both?

Do I understand correctly that air lore, even at 101 ranks, would give
nothing but a 33 damage bonus to 1008? I plan on using it as a
primary attack until I can use sonic disruption effectively. I won't
be using sonic gear or tonis at any point, so I'm guessing that air
lore will be a waste for me.

What are the best and second best wands to get mana from with unravel,
so I can start stockpiling?

Anything else I need to know?

[Celephais]

Few things... in your quick leveling stage you should really boost up your STR, possibly your AGI. And train at least one rank of shields.

Another factor you may not be considering is the spell twisting penalty, if you plan on keeping 1003/1007/1010 up at all times early you're looking at a pretty solid amount of mana on renewals. 1002 is pretty reliable even early on, my bard had no trouble using it during his "quick hunting" phase.

When you switch to runestaffs you'll find mana hard to come by too, as you use it for spells and the penalty for twisting more and more spells (you're going to want a lot of defensive spells...)

[MrTastyHead]

Well, the only problem with the stats is that I don't know where to get more points from. I wanted the max possible mana from the start to keep 1003/1007/1010 going from the moment I learn them, and I wanted DIS/LOG as high as possible for the fastest xp gain. I suppose I could drop con down to 20, since I don't plan on carrying much and with 2xing songs I should have an ample DS to advance. Any thoughts on this?

You're right about the shield, I'll grab a rank of that.

Now, for when he's a runestaff bard, I plan on being all songs until I come to a point where MnE will provide more of a boost to his bardic CS than songs. So I won't have to worry about spending much, if any, mana on elemental spells for a good while. Will this give me enough leeway with mana to hunt effectively? I enjoy hunting with other people, so I'll be trying to do as much of that as possible. My thought was basically find critter, either 1002 if applicable or 1008 to damage/stun, and let the hunting partner do the rest.

[Celephais]

Actually bard songs will eat into your mana more than MnE songs would... MnE can be stacked when not in the field, bard song costs will eat into your pool while on the field. ... having to refresh songs instead of paying the cost upfront is a bad thing.

I would highly suggest getting 401/406 early though, unless you want to constantly get spell ups that +15 DS will be very nice.

[Savageheart]

I tried a pure bard... I hated it. Personal choice but I dont find MnE an amazing spell base to pure in it meshes better with my ability to hybrid.

Doubling songs is incredibly painful, it's not impossible but take a look at the numbers. In order to make a pure bard viable for leveling you will slow yourself down to a crawl. Honesty I don't see the point in 2x'n edged if this is the sport you want to roll in.

I would say Pure Bard is possible and not incredibly difficult post 30 (this was right at the time of testing before the III to IV switch). Now mind you I am trying to be as constructive as I can, I've been out of the lands for more than a few years and picking up as swift as I can so take what ever I say with a grain of salt. Once upon a time (we'll call that time 2:30) I knew a thing or two about a thing or three.

When I tried to go pure I min maxed my stats for it (which kills you in a lot of areas later on come to find) and fixskilled post 30. Before that it was too easy to hunt with a board and sword and until you get 1030 your offensive songs assuming you aren't swinging arent that great. My basic premise behid this was simply... Lets see what happens (I was still within the window for fixskills and stats) the 30s already suck and they couldn't possibly be worse as half the easy hunts are almost exclusively geared toward pures from 30-40 (damn dirty pures)

So I did it, tried it, got bored with it really quickly actually bored is not the right word... I got so frustraited after the ordeal I did not want to play the bard again for a number of years. Now could be I'm just more of you're average bard. Indeed a bard was my third character and most favorite and I enjoy playing all of its abilities to the hybrid edge. For me playing pure seems to gimp it. If you are comfortable with that, and it seems like you are to tell the truth as your more caught up with the RP and the ability to play an off type.

Funny thing is though, there isn't going to be much you CAN do that other bards cannot do at least as good. There are many things they CAN do which you cannot at all with this build. Food for thought.

Were I to give you any good advice starting out it would be don't start the character pure. Start it as your average spellsword and get into the 20s-30s. You will probably suffer alot less for your troubles and the character has a better shot at sticking.

From there I didn't see any MIU on the list? For a pure this should be singled as well. It gives you raw offensive capabilities and you increase your ability to self buff dynamically. I have a feeling you'll have to twist alot of spells early on.

[Celephais]

I don't think you read his whole post...

[MrTastyHead]

I know I won't be as effective as other bards for the most part. I've had both sword/board and archery bards before, but I always enjoyed using the songs the most. I just love the idea of a siren-ish wizard-type character using his voice to as his weapon.

Now, is the bonus to the usability of my songs from training so highly in songs and MC not going to be enough to mostly balance out the no weapons? Or at least partially? I should note that I am planning on singling out enemies who use swords and shields whenever possible, to maximize my chance to kill or severely maim with 1002.

You're right that I do like playing more unique characters, and am willing to suffer for it, I just want to know how much I'm going to suffer.

[Savageheart]

Savageheart gets hit in the head with his own WOT
Shot sends head into shoulders obliterating neck with a messy wet crack
*Savageheart dies right in front of your eyes!
*Savageheart just bit the dust

Indeed I did not as mine just became fairly repetitious well hell, did the same thing I did. In that case fine vanilla build to 30 the shield and dodging I dunno...

Let that be a lesson kids, pay attention when your waxing all intellectual and stuff.

I'd say 0-10 was easy. You can still get an ass kickin from 10-20 if your not careful or severely gimped. 20-30 without a shield, depends what you're killing I suppose but most of the hunting I did then was in swarms.

After that... MIU is actually on there more /babble for me. If you are going to fixskill at 30 anyway with not level a moderate hybrid base first hand and then swap? Else are you just going to leave those 60 ranks in EW?

[MrTastyHead]

That's what I'm doing, the builds up there are seperate. First is what I will do until the end of the 30 days, at which point I will use fixstat/skills and go to the second build.

[Savageheart]

Well if you've got the time try and get well into 20 before your fixstat wears off.

[AestheticDeath]

Few things... in your quick leveling stage you should really boost up your STR, possibly your AGI. And train at least one rank of shields.

Another factor you may not be considering is the spell twisting penalty, if you plan on keeping 1003/1007/1010 up at all times early you're looking at a pretty solid amount of mana on renewals. 1002 is pretty reliable even early on, my bard had no trouble using it during his "quick hunting" phase.

When you switch to runestaffs you'll find mana hard to come by too, as you use it for spells and the penalty for twisting more and more spells (you're going to want a lot of defensive spells...)

Whats this spell twisting your referring to?

[TheEschaton]

Song renewal costs, and the combination effects thereof.

[Celephais]

Whats this spell twisting your referring to?
Right you can have two songs sung without penalty, as you add more songs there is additional penalty to renewal cost above and beyond the actual cost of renewing the song. I might be using the wrong term "twisting" which is a term I picked up from EQ long ago.

[Savageheart]

Each song carries a specific renewal cost. Each renewal is good for just over 2 pulses (for my bard).

So if you are a pure bard you would be twisting just for defensive purposes

1003-1006-1010-1019

Which is roughly 25mpr

For offensive purposes you would be throwing

1002-1005-1008-1030

This gets mana intensive while hunting.

I twist 1007-1010-1012-1019 when hunting my renewal is 29MP with a total pool of 108 at 31.
While twisting that I generally throw 1005 out fairly liberally without much worry. However, when I attempt to twist another song I will shock myself and ring home with my tail between my legs.

Pure bards need a huge mana pool and high con for recovery.

[MrTastyHead]

I'm thinking that with his levels of MIU and scroll reading, and the fact that 2x songs is a priority for him, he won't need to run 1003. 1010 will give him a pretty massive DS bonus. So that will help from having a msp.

Also, he will be an elf with super high mental stats, so he should have a very long base renewal time. And he's 2x HP and 1x MMC for life, so he will have a bigger pool and be able to 1013 very well. At 31 I believe he will have around 140 mana.

[Savageheart]

Im hoping he's 2xing spells not songs I don't beleive he'll be able to use songs greater than his current level (I could be wrong but it used to be you could not even if you had it trained) From a pure twisting standpoint most of them outpace your ability to use them effectively. You can have 1010 and 1019 by 19 I dont think you can sing them both at 19 and have a great renewal ability even with 100aura/100con.

[MrTastyHead]

Nope, 2x in songs. He can't use them above his level, but I assume he will get the benefit from songs known. Which means they will be way more powerful than a 1x songs bard. And it will drop his MSP a whole lot.

One more question, I just read on the forums that runestaves can be sung with 1012 now. Do they act just like normal runestaves, using magical ranks and everything? I hope so, cause that would be perfect.

[Savageheart]

To my knowledge the benifit of songs known caps at the songs you are able to sing. It's been some time since I reviewed this however and I'll admit I could be flat wrong. Further you would be spending FAR less if you learned them as you level. On top of which 35 levels for an experienced player is not exactly an insane feet. By your own admission the first 30 levels are cake.

There are 35 possible songs to learn which have application to you in immediate. Many bards do not go past 1020 until 35-40 (by the time you are 50 you can twist 1035 without too much detriment to your mana and singing sword is a joke unless your cap). So mainly you want to get the bonus from 1010 which nets you 1 (DS) per 2 Songs known OVER 1010. Where as you can do more at level 10 knowing 1010 and 401 & 406. The only reason I could see doing any of this is for the bonus at 1019 but honestly you only get to know 4 spells after that anyway.

Doubling songs you cannot sing is small gain for high pain. When singling will give you full utility 30+ it really seems like a poor choice. Actually, imo no gain... You are talking about 10DS to gimp yourself otherwise. There are MUCH more effective ways of getting 10DS.

[MrTastyHead]

Well that is interesting. Level 7 bard, 7 songs known, renewal cost of 3 singing 1003/1007. Level 7 bard, 13 songs known, renewal cost of 9 singing 1003/1007. And no additional AS boost.

[Celephais]

One more question, I just read on the forums that runestaves can be sung with 1012 now. Do they act just like normal runestaves, using magical ranks and everything? I hope so, cause that would be perfect.
That'd be a good way to waste mana... you won't want to sing yet another spell on top of the ones you'll already need, and since you won't benefit from the flares, it's worth it to just buy a runestaff... because runestaff enchant experiences diminishing returns.

[Savageheart]

What he said. If you were going to twist any sonics it should be armor, which has moderate whether proofing as well. It's not bad in the 30s when hunting the glacier.