Armor

[Savageheart]

Ok,

Apparently I have been under some great misconceptions about how armor works.

Lets take for example torso protection only, Chainmail.

Now if you have some say 4x HCP chainmail this would give you chain protection on your torso only.

I was informed last night that it will also provide 'brig like' protection for your extremeties and head. Where I was under the impression that if you had torso only protection, your Bob and Dangles were hanging in the wind along with your other extremities.

Can anyone break this down in fairly concise fashion for me? I would greatly appreciate it.

The reason for my quandry is I want to wear some 4x HCP Chainmail I just happen to have on my bard. Previously I was wearing it with a helm gauntlets and boots and it was slowing me so far down it was silly. Now Bard currently uses a Lance so assuming I have 50ranks of Armor with Moderate Dex-Agility I want to stay around a 7 sec natual RT (what I have in Brig). Should this be the case?

[Khariz]

Ok,

Apparently I have been under some great misconceptions about how armor works.

Lets take for example torso protection only, Chainmail.

Now if you have some say 4x HCP chainmail this would give you chain protection on your torso only.

I was informed last night that it will also provide 'brig like' protection for your extremeties and head. Where I was under the impression that if you had torso only protection, your Bob and Dangles were hanging in the wind along with your other extremities.

Can anyone break this down in fairly concise fashion for me? I would greatly appreciate it.

The reason for my quandry is I want to wear some 4x HCP Chainmail I just happen to have. Previously I was wearing it with a helm gauntlets and boots and it was slowing me so far down it was silly.

Yeah, its real easy.

Whatever armor type you are wearing covers its INSPECTed area with that type of armor class. All other areas not mentioned in INSPECT are covered by one Armor Type down. If you are wearing a Metal Breastplate, you are covered by plate on the chest and chain hauberk everywhere else.

[Savageheart]

I love you in a very real, very platonic fashion right now.

About the R/T question... Any thought?

[Stanley Burrell]

Ok,

Apparently I have been under some great misconceptions about how armor works.

Lets take for example torso protection only, Chainmail.

Now if you have some say 4x HCP chainmail this would give you chain protection on your torso only.

I was informed last night that it will also provide 'brig like' protection for your extremeties and head. Where I was under the impression that if you had torso only protection, your Bob and Dangles were hanging in the wind along with your other extremities.

Can anyone break this down in fairly concise fashion for me? I would greatly appreciate it.

The reason for my quandry is I want to wear some 4x HCP Chainmail I just happen to have. Previously I was wearing it with a helm gauntlets and boots and it was slowing me so far down it was silly.

You'll get scale protection with heavy padding (like FGB, if you want to use that analogy) on areas of your body that are covered with armor accessories (e.g. aventail + helm/visored helm and leg & arm greaves.)

If you were to have, say, double chain with fair padding (crit or damage, it doesn't matter) and wore arm greaves where you already had chain class arm protection, you wouldn't lose an armor class, but you *would* halve the "double covered" area's padding that layers your torso-worn armor piece. You would drop your double chain's padding from fair to light if wearing arm greaves with such a hypothetical suit of armor.

NOW, if you decide to go unarmored (no accessories) while wearing, say, only padded torso chain, you NULL the padding, but, you don't have the added RT/spell casting/etc. encumbrance, which in some instances could be more of a hassle if not properly trained in armor use.

I'd try and make sure, personally, that if you have torso chain with padding, you try and up a few armor ranks so as to at least get augmented safekeeping from it with leg + arm protection (and some encumbrance, but not that of hauberk or a full augmented suit of chain class armor.)

[Martaigne]

NOW, if you decide to go unarmored (no accessories) while wearing, say, only padded torso chain, you NULL the padding,

Say what?? I didn't know that... I thought the extremities would be (in this case) HCP scale?

[Savageheart]

So the HCP I have is ONLY on the chest everything else is standard 4x scale protection?

Hrmm, bards can wear up to Augmented with 50 ranks so I could get some Augmented instead and get that padded as well and simply sell the chain...

Gah Theorycraft!

Ok so lets assume I wear some Knee High Rolaren Plate Boots I have and Rolaren Gauntlets (no helm gives me crazy magic fail rate) How would that effect my encumberance AND R/T and required Armor Ranks? Or would it be best to try and FIND Chain based armoring for arms legs and head? Assuming that is gained would each peice half the padding meaning...

Add Leg Armor and Arm Armor thus making 4x HCP Chain to 4x LCP chain?

[Khariz]

Pretty sure from testing that Stanley is Right. That' why they have Accessories with HCP and whatnot on them.

And yeah, if you can find some chain to put on your whole body, that's obviously gonna be better.

As to wearing accessories, I'm not sure how much each one additional accessory pushes you up in the AsG food chain. I'm not sure if there's an exact formula for that. If you are barely trained for your armor type though and you start adding things, expect the game to treat you like you are in the next AsG up, and you'll get the accordant movement and RT penalties.

[Celephais]

So in effect if I was wearing VHCP light leather and go bopped in the head I could be worse off than if I was wearing DCP robes? Because I was getting the robe protection on the head anyway, but not any of the crit padding?

[Savageheart]

I can wear Augmented up to 50 ranks so as long as I don't apply head protection I should be 'ok' question still remains with the two additions would I then have only "light" padding?

If so seems like I wasted a good amount of points. Eh I have more I guess.

The question of Viability also comes into play how long can a bard ride on Brig comfortably?

The issue really is I have nice armor (4x HCP Chain) and I have ok armor (4x MDP Brig). Now I'm opperating under the assumption most bards move up to chain because it is only 50 ranks and their fail rate is still low (only 15% up to Augmented) Plus being a polearmer, it would behoove me to have something a little stiffer than Brig as I usually get cut up when hunting.

Now if I can ride on brig comfortably through the 50s I would probably do just that, my main concern right now is making sure my bard is as combat viable with Polearms as I can make him for his level (31).

[Khariz]

So in effect if I was wearing VHCP light leather and go bopped in the head I could be worse off than if I was wearing DCP robes? Because I was getting the robe protection on the head anyway, but not any of the crit padding?

I'm not comfortable saying that, nut only because the crit divisor of robes is so horrid.

But yeah...if the VHCP on the leathers doesn't affect your head...

[Nilandia]

Ok so lets assume I wear some Knee High Rolaren Plate Boots I have and Rolaren Gauntlets (no helm gives me crazy magic fail rate) How would that effect my encumberance AND R/T and required Armor Ranks? Or would it be best to try and FIND Chain based armoring for arms legs and head? Assuming that is gained would each peice half the padding meaning...

As I understand it, if you add accessories, you're in essence creating a new set of armor but keeping the protection of the lower armor class. If you're wearing torso chain and you add gauntlets that function as armor (there are some gauntlets that don't), you'll have the added hindrance, RT and magic penalties as if you were wearing double chain, but your arms would still have the crit divisor of scale armor. If you're wearing torso chain and add a helm, however, you get the full penalty of hauberk, regardless of whether you add arm and leg protection.

I could be wrong on that, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

As to padding, I can offer a post from a GM announcing changes to padding and accessories.



In response to player concerns, we have modified our previous changes to the padding system:

Padded partial armor has been restored to allow its padding to give full protection to partially covered areas by default. If an armor accessory with the same type of padding is worn over top of either full coverage or partial armor, then only the highest level of padding will apply. For example, lightly damage padded full plate in combination with a heavily damage padded helm would result in heavy damage padding on hits to the head and light damage padding on every other type of hit.

If padded armor is combined with specially enhanced armor accessories (or vice versa), then the previously announced system of averaging bonuses will continue to be used. Specially enhanced armor includes: differing types of padding (i.e. combining damage and critical padding on a hit location), armor that is resistant to specific damage types, blessed armor, TD enhancing armor, flaring armor, and spiked armor.

Returning to the original examples given, here is how they would be affected by this revision:

Player is wearing "decently" damage padded light leather and no helm. He gets hit in the head. He would have an effective damage padding level of "decent". [The base padding level is that of the partial armor]

Player is wearing "decently" damage padded light leather and a "very heavily" damage padded helm. He gets hit in the head. He would have an effective damage padding level of "very heavy". [Only the best level of damage padding is applied]

Player is wearing "decently" damage padded light leather and a "heavily" crit padded helm. He gets hit in the head. He would have an effective damage padding level of "fair" and an effective crit padding level of "somewhat" ([decent + 0] / 2 = fair, [very heavy + 0] / 2 = somewhat). [No change]

Player is wearing "somewhat" damage padded half plate and no leg greaves. He gets hit in the legs. He would have an effective damage padding level of "somewhat" (full protection), as half plate fully covers the legs. [No change]

Player is wearing "somewhat" damage padded half plate and is wearing "very heavily" damage padded leg greaves. He gets hit in the legs. He would have an effective damage padding level of "very heavy". [Again, only the best level of one particular padding type is applied]

Player is wearing "somewhat" damage padded half plate and puts on unpadded leg greaves. He gets hit in the legs. He would have an effective damage padding level of "somewhat". [Again, best level of padding.]

Some additional examples:

Player is wearing unpadded chain hauberk and puts on "very heavily" critical padded leg greaves. He gets hit in the legs. He would have an effective critial padding level of "very heavy". [Again, best level of padding]

Player is wearing "very heavily" damage padded chain hauberk and puts on a blessed helm. He gets hit in the head. He would would have an effective damage padding level of "somewhat" ([very heavy + 0] / 2 = somewhat). [Combining padded armor with a specially enhanced accessory results in the padding level being averaged]

Coase


Gretchen

[Celephais]

I'm not comfortable saying that, nut only because the crit divisor of robes is so horrid.

But yeah...if the VHCP on the leathers doesn't affect your head...


As to padding, I can offer a post from a GM announcing changes to padding and accessories.
Player is wearing "decently" damage padded light leather and no helm. He gets hit in the head. He would have an effective damage padding level of "decent". [The base padding level is that of the partial armor]

Phew, looks like the VHCP on the leathers does affect your head according to the GM post... that's good, I was kind of sad to think that instead of looking for padded full leathers I was going to have to switch to robes due to not being able to pad my head if in fulls. (Crit divisor is less of an issue for a wizard, it's the manuevers I want to pad my head/neck against and not end up with doubles hinderance).

[Sypher]

How much do crit padded accessories go for?

[Martaigne]

If you're wearing torso chain and you add gauntlets that function as armor (there are some gauntlets that don't), you'll have the added hindrance, RT and magic penalties as if you were wearing double chain, but your arms would still have the crit divisor of scale armor.


That would make armor accessories completely pointless, if I'm reading that right. All the penalty, none of the protection?

[Nilandia]

I haven't played much with accessories, so I really don't know how it's affected for certain.

Robes only cover the torso, though. That one I do know.

Gretchen

[Celephais]

That would make armor accessories completely pointless, if I'm reading that right. All the penalty, none of the protection?
No they offer the protection, you misread it as in it protects the hands but not the arms... I think. Or she mistyped it... you can wear MPB with a helm, aventail, vambraces, greaves, and gauntlets and the only "penalty" over full plate you take is to your AvD.

[Savageheart]

Ok this is perfect basically if I have unaltered (in the special abilities sense) gauntlets and boots then I still get HCP all over and essentially just get the Augmented bonus.

IF I were to add a helmet blessed padded spiked or otherwise that could HALVE the padding and raise the Augmented ASG and Hinderence up to Hauberk. Which is bad, mkay (for bards anyway)

Conclusion: Provided Normal Impliments worn with HCP Chain Armor for Legs and Arms you will have a protection level of Chain W/HCP for extremeties and torso with a protection level of Scale with HCP on head.

Please let me know if you are available for hugs later Gretchen... Has nothing to do with gratitude mind you, all the same you have rocked my socks off much appreciated!

[Latrinsorm]

Nobody in the thread thus far has been correct as far as "partial" coverage armors go.

Wearing chain mail will provide the chain DF to ALL parts of the body. It will provide the chain crit divisor to only the TORSO and the scale crit divisor to all other body parts.

Adding (for instance) a helm (that covers only the head) to chain mail will grant the chain crit divisor on the HEAD, but will also cause the penalties of chain hauberk ("full" coverage).

The padding deal is as Coase said.

Note that chain DFs are not always superior to scale DFs. This should factor into the consideration of which armor your character wears depending on the enemy you choose to engage.

Note also that bards have a really awesome set of armor via sonic armor that is not only monetarily free but AsG selectable, obviating the need to scout enemies' armaments.

[Savageheart]

I don't fully grasp what you said can you break it down a little more simply?

Basically let me give you the conclusions I've draw from reading the GM post and you can correct me from there.

ITEM: HCP 4x Chainmail (torso only)

Now I will be wearing this with Vanilla Rolaren Gauntlets and Boots making the total ASG that of Augmented chain.

For this all extremities will receive HCP and the gear will effectively function as augmented.

Were I to add a helm I would then be looking at the requirements for Full Chain Hauberk.

As is WITHOUT Head protection my head will be receiving brig level protection with HCP.

Please correct this statement as you see fit.

Thanks!

[Celephais]

Inspect your gauntlets and boots and post what it says. Generally boots do shit.

[Savageheart]

Trust me they are armored this is a set from a long time ago its a matched Gauntlet, Knee High Plated Boot, and Winged Rolaren Warhelm. They are all armor and the boots cover legs n thighs.

None are padded flared or spiked in any fashion. They are as vanilla as they were when I bought them off the merchant years ago.

[Latrinsorm]

As is WITHOUT Head protection my head will be receiving brig level protection with HCP.This is the only wrong part. There are three numbers that armor generates with regards to AS/DS resolution: AvD (mechanical fudge factor), Damage Factor (DF) (how much raw damage a weapon does per endroll over 100), and crit divisor (how much raw damage is required to achieve a crit rank). A "partial" coverage armor provides the DF of the torso material (in your case chain) to all parts of the body (including, in your case, the head/neck). What the head doesn't have is the chain crit divisor. Adding a helm gives you this.

[Khariz]

This is the only wrong part. There are three numbers that armor generates with regards to AS/DS resolution: AvD (mechanical fudge factor), Damage Factor (DF) (how much raw damage a weapon does per endroll over 100), and crit divisor (how much raw damage is required to achieve a crit rank). A "partial" coverage armor provides the DF of the torso material (in your case chain) to all parts of the body (including, in your case, the head/neck). What the head doesn't have is the chain crit divisor. Adding a helm gives you this.

We are still leaving out this factor:

What if the chain BP is heavily crit padded? Will putting on a helmet halve that HCP on the head, or is the head not protected by the padding at all if the armor does not cover that part?

[Latrinsorm]

Coase's post via Nilandia covers that. Vanilla accessories are no problemo.

[Khariz]

Coase's post via Nilandia covers that. Vanilla accessories are no problemo.

<screams>

OKay, so I understand that now from the quote here that it won't halve the HCP of the chest.

I still wanna know this though (which has nothing to do with the DF or the natural crit divisor of the chain BP):

Does wearing a Heavy Crit-Padded chain BP confer the HEavy Crit Padding to other areas of the body besides the chest?

[Donquix]

<screams>

OKay, so I understand that now from the quote here that it won't halve the HCP of the chest.

I still wanna know this though (which has nothing to do with the DF or the natural crit divisor of the chain BP):

Does wearing a Heavy Crit-Padded chain BP confer the HEavy Crit Padding to other areas of the body besides the chest?

<screams>

"Padded partial armor has been restored to allow its padding to give full protection to partially covered areas by default. If an armor accessory with the same type of padding is worn over top of either full coverage or partial armor, then only the highest level of padding will apply. For example, lightly damage padded full plate in combination with a heavily damage padded helm would result in heavy damage padding on hits to the head and light damage padding on every other type of hit."

[Khariz]

OKay, duh. Thanks.

Reading comprehension FTW!

This shit is worse than reading statutes. I originally read those two statements in tandem and thought that accessories would mess with the padding, but that was just be being retarded.

[Savageheart]

So basically my head will still get mashed in but the rest of me will make a pretty corpse?

Fine fine, where would I be in life if I didn't learn to take a few blows to the head now and again, since Augmented Chain seems to be a natural progression for most bards, pole bards especially I must conclude that this is a fact of life many have grown to live with.

[Celephais]

So basically my head will still get mashed in but the rest of me will make a pretty corpse?

Fine fine, where would I be in life if I didn't learn to take a few blows to the head now and again

Just HCP ChainBP: AvD (ASG 13) Training required (ASG 13)
Body hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (HCP)
Head hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Scale) Padding (HCP)
Leg hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Scale) Padding (HCP)

HCP ChainBP & vainilla Helm: AvD (ASG 13) Training required (ASG 16)
Head hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (HCP)
Leg hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Scale) Padding (HCP)

HCP ChainBP & Slash resistant Helm: AvD (ASG 13) Training required (ASG 16)
Head hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (Half HCP + Half Slash resistance)
Leg hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Scale) Padding (HCP)

HCP Chain Hauberk: AvD (ASG 16) Training required (ASG 16)
All hits: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (HCP)

HCP Chain Hauberk & vainilla Helm: AvD (ASG 16) Training required (ASG 16)
All hits (INCLUDING HEAD): DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (HCP)

HCP Chain Hauberk & Slash resistant Helm: AvD (ASG 16) Training required (ASG 16)
All but head hits: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (HCP)
Head hit: DF (Chain) Crit Div (Chain) Padding (Half HCP + Half Slash resistance)

[Savageheart]

:wubsmiley:

Also I'd just like to take this time out to compliment the mods on the vast selection of smilies.

[Fallen]

I dont know if it has already been mentioned in this thread, but enhancive armor accessories (Like the Brawling Bracers/Vambraces) DO NOT affect your overall padding from your armor. It was a concern of mine, though luckily it was unfounded.

Pretty much ANY other kind of beneficial armor accessory will half the coverage on that part of your armor. I may have saved that post, I should go back and check.

[Fallen]

>If padded armor is combined with specially enhanced armor accessories (or vice versa), then the previously announced system of averaging bonuses will continue to be used. Specially enhanced armor includes: differing types of padding (i.e. combining damage and critical padding on a hit location), armor that is resistant to specific damage types, blessed armor, TD enhancing armor, flaring armor, and spiked armor. -Me

>but that very last little statement bothers me. "spiked armor". Spikes do not take up your padding slot, as you can have armor that is padded and spiked. I'm uncertain, but can enhancive items be spiked? I guess that would answer a little. Would a GM mind chiming in on this and confirming? I've asked a few time prior, but I find myself again with confussion and doubt.

Specially enhanced armor, for padding calculation purposes, only includes what I noted above (plus AS enhancing armor, which was implemented after that post). Whether or not a piece of armor is enhancive or not has no effect on padding. To answer the other question, enhancive armor can indeed be spiked.

Coase