Anti-Breakage, The Political Argument

[Khariz]

Okay, I hate to beat what SHOULD be a dead horse, but the topic of breakage has recently come up on the Official Board again. After the normal circular argument that ensued, and the quick tempers heating up, I posted the following as my *personal* reason for why I hate the idea of breakage.

I bring this post here for many reasons. (1) Intellectual discussion on the Officials is somewhat lacking. (2) I enjoy people picking shit apart here. (3) Political discussions get enough attention here that I can see non-GS responses to this thread, which I welcome. These are at least some of the reasons.

And now for the post. I apologize for the length:

Oh man, I told myself I was done with this thread, but in my pre-coffee delusional state this morning, I can't resist. I'm going to share with you folks a story about my real life that this thread makes me think of. It's indicative of both many things, including both why I hate the thought of breakage, and my political stance in general.

When I was 15 I started working at a Fast Food joint. 18 months in, I was damn proud of myself. I had earned three token raises, and was making a chunk more money than when I started. Nothing big, as the raises were small, but it felt REALLY GOOD to have accomplished something, and to feel like someone was recognizing you for all of the hard work that you did. Then, all of a sudden, the Minimum Wage was raised ten cents above what my current pay rate was. So yes, it was nice to be making 10 cents more per hour, but it also devastated me. I went to the owner of the company and complained, being the ignorant (then 16 year old) that I was. "You mean that even though I've earned 75 cents in raises over the past 18 months, all of this is now arbitrarily erased? Now everyone you hire in off the street will make the same amount of money as me starting off, even though I've worked my butt off to get these raises?"

I asked her why I couldn't be raised to the new minimum wage AND have my raises applied on top of that to again be on equal footing compared to the new hires. It only seemed fair. She sort of laughed, and explained to me that such a deal is just not how things work, that she can't afford to arbitrarily pay everyone a lot more because the federal government mandates her to AND afford to give everyone their raises to. Wow. This was a reality check for me.

Okay, so jump to Gemstone. Magnify the problem buy WAY MORE than 18 months. I've spent over Thirteen Years of my life playing this game to attain the things that I have. I've poured all the silvers I've earned across all of my characters into one of them so that he can have all the toys and armor and weapons that I want to have on him, and it's fun. In today's market, he probably runs around with over 400 million coins worth of stuff on him, most of which is armor and weapons. Like the people above, I realize that I can lose things to mechanics like disarm and OTF looting, but I am consciously careful to not let that happen, and take active steps to avoid it, including OOC ones like having an older character capable of obliterating everything on standby just in case.

I love this game. Right now, I'm married, I have a kid, I work 40+ hours a week, AND I got to Law School in the evenings, yet I still steal a few hours from sleep here, and a few hours from my family there, and probably still end up playing close to 25 hours a week. Yeah, that might be ridiculous, but I enjoy this place. It resets me from reality. Don't go and bring reality into it for me and try to make this place into real life. I like the fact that I have been able to actually earn something over my years here. I enjoy the fact that I have the things that I have, and nobody is arbitrarily taking them away from me with a system like breakage.

I have to admit that all of the pro-breakage arguments that I'm hearing remind me a heck of a lot of this Minimum Wage thing. The major proponents of the system seem to be on a "fairness" kick. They seem to posit that more awesome weapons will be available for a wider range of people. This makes me hurt a little inside. These are the same arguments as to why the Minimum Wage should be raised. It will make things more fair for the poor, they will be able to afford more, live better, etc. No they won't. Minimum Wage punishes businesses by forcing them to arbitrarily pay higher rates to unskilled workers who don't deserve to be paid more because they never learned how to do anything worth being paid more for. Then the same businesses raise prices, and the people that just got a "raise" from the government end up paying more for everything and the raise all but instantaneously disappears.

Same thing will happen here. The people that have earned what they have, cherish what they have, and feel good about the things that they have attained will have them pulled out from underneath them for a seemingly equitable reason. They will be mad and upset, and some (like me) will leave. Then at first, the others (the "have nots") will rejoice at the neato weapons they can now afford, but will quickly learn that these new neato weapons will break just as fast, and suddenly they will realize that while BEFORE they would have had a chance to one day save up enough silvers to permanently obtain an item of vast value and worth, now they are condemned to the poverty treadmill, and can no longer truly attain anything but their level (just like growing old).

I can't put my position on this any more clearly or eloquently then I have here. Breakage is a bad thing. For those of you that support it, I understand why, but we are two different kinds of people. It takes all kinds to make a world. Hopefully Gemstone doesn't feel the need to be like the real one.

[thefarmer]

Nicely put. I was expecting some cracked out blathering nonesense.

[ElanthianSiren]

Good post. I'm just afraid that by taking a political spin with it, you're going to run the risk of defending your political position more than the actual issue of breakage.

[Khariz]

Good post. I'm just afraid that by taking a political spin with it, you're going to run the risk of defending your political position more than the actual issue of breakage.

That's okay on this board.

And on the Official's, it won't happen, cause the Mods won't let it.

I think it'll be okay, hehe.

[Cademus]

Breakage won't happen. Mainly because it's not in simu's business interests (they'll lose a fifth of the pbase including multi accounts).

What will happen is this:

Breakage redux: Your weapon or armor or even magical item can break if hit accordingly. However, it's not permanent. Instead you bring it to your local weapon shop or PC forger or whatever and get it fixed. Fixing takes time. For a minor magical weapon (say an off the shelf vultite weapon) this takes a couple hours. For a masterpiece artifact (say a ebow) this will take 2 weeks or more of out of game time to fix etc.

To be honest, the above will not alter the value of your weapons (at least at the going silver rate denominations) since ALL weapons/armor/items will be subject to this. In fact, it rewards people who were playing in a non-breakage environment because they didn't have this "delay time" for waiting on their weapons to be fixed.

Overall, I think Simu will think about doing the above since then they can get more "fun" items into the game without totally destroying balance. More fun items equals a happier pbase (At least for the commoners, which are the larger part of the population.)


On an aside, though Khariz, I understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe Simu will be stupid enough to start handing out crit weighted super weapons any easier then before. You have to remember one of the reasons people continue to play (and thus pay) for the game is to acquire these super weapons, if Simu starts handing them out then one of the most important incentives for continued play (and thus pay) by players goes out the window.

[Khariz]

On an aside, though Khariz, I understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe Simu will be stupid enough to start handing out crit weighted super weapons any easier then before. You have to remember one of the reasons people continue to play (and thus pay) for the game is to acquire these super weapons, if Simu starts handing them out then one of the most important incentives for continued play (and thus pay) by players goes out the window.

Oh, I don't believe that either. But that is a common argument on the pro-breakage side, so I felt the need to address it.

[AestheticDeath]

I think there needs to be a larger drain of silvers from the lands. Not something random like dragon bones, that while although it is effective, not everyone plays it. You need something that everyone will have to spend silvers for.

Breakage is one of those things, and I think if it is implemented properly it will be good for the game even if a few people don't like it. Having said that, I do not support the idea of extreme failure on items, and not being able to get them back in some way. It needs to be a repair system, not a breakage system.

Also, what exactly was the reason Simutronics gave for wanting to implement breakage? Was it to be able to drain more silvers from the game? Or was it to be able to get rid of powerful items? And if it was to get rid of items rather than silvers, was it to make up for having too many uber items, or to be able to introduce more items to more people and share the wealth?

[TheEschaton]

I don't mind breakage as a player who doesn't play long enough to be effected by repair times, I mind possible degeneration of weapons over the long term if repaired. IE, you can "repair" it to "full" status, but it's less than before...

[Gan]

My thoughts on breakage and other efforts to make Gemstone more 'realistic'.

1. Why the fuck would you try to make a fantasy game involving mythical creatures, magic in all its forms, mythical creatures - undead - and other various lifeforms, and a whole pantheon of gods and goddesses realistic? ITS A GOD DAMN FANTASY GAME!!!

2. Expecting players to sit by and wait 1 to 2 weeks for a weapon to be repaired, or armor to be repaired is completely retarded. If you're going to implement weapon/armor degradation then it needs to be done like WoW where you find an NPC or someone skilled in that trade and have it repaired. This game is enough of a time sink as it is without waiting for something else as well.

[Sean of the Thread]

Should be like WoW in my opinion. Expense based on quality of item.

[Cademus]

Wouldn't paying a ton of silvers to insta fix a high quality item be the same timesink, just indirectly?

[Gan]

Wouldn't paying a ton of silvers to insta fix a high quality item be the same timesink, just indirectly?

Not if you buy silvers. ;)

[Latrinsorm]

I like the fact that I have been able to actually earn something over my years here. I enjoy the fact that I have the things that I have, and nobody is arbitrarily taking them away from me with a system like breakage.I think this is a good synopsis of your position, and the two bolded words are the most crucial. The use of "arbitrarily" is incendiary at best; you know that there are reasons behind every change. I think it's also extremely important to examine just what you mean by "earn", as there is a strong sense of "deserved" here.

Your analogy to minimum wage is deeply flawed. There are no primary economics in GemStone. Tykel's prices don't change if suddenly a lot of people buy broadswords or if nobody buys a broadsword for 20 years. The only thing that comes close to an economic system is the secondary (player-based) market, over which Simu has 0 control.
now they are condemned to the poverty treadmillThis wasn't how breakage worked before, why would you think it would be different in the future?
My thoughts on breakage and other efforts to make Gemstone more 'realistic'.Realism is not the reason for breakage.

In any event, these concerns could not be simpler to address:
Release a catastrophic breakage system (the specific mechanics are unimportant). Gear currently on characters (in lockers, etc.) is unbreakable so long as it remains on that specific character. This eventually accomplishes Simu's supposed goals without taking anyone's current gear(/alters) away.

[Celephais]

In any event, these concerns could not be simpler to address:
Release a catastrophic breakage system (the specific mechanics are unimportant). Gear currently on characters (in lockers, etc.) is unbreakable so long as it remains on that specific character. This eventually accomplishes Simu's supposed goals without taking anyone's current gear(/alters) away.

I actually REALLY like this idea as a means of accomplishing the goal without causing undue strain on "beloved" items.

[Gan]

I actually REALLY like this idea as a means of accomplishing the goal without causing undue strain on "beloved" items.

/Agreed.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Realism is not the reason for breakage.



Warden's a fucking idiot. He'll implement breakage if and only if Lohlem suggests it in the Game Balance folder.

That being said, one of the many idiotic reasons given for ruining the game and removing 60 levels was "to make it easier for the GM's to design invasions without dealing with a level range of 160".

Thank goodness no one complains about invasions anymore.

[Warriorbird]

People who don't want breakage love Monty Haul type economies. This means that the staff releases less good items and does stuff like the ebow and ecrossbow downtweaks. There's also ridiculous inflation.

These people are spoiled. They like things handed to them. A breakage system (ALA DR) with catastrophic breakage only if you don't perform proper maintenance isn't a big deal at all. There's my somewhat political take.

GS players are far too babied for it to ever happen.

[Cademus]

In any event, these concerns could not be simpler to address:
Release a catastrophic breakage system (the specific mechanics are unimportant). Gear currently on characters (in lockers, etc.) is unbreakable so long as it remains on that specific character. This eventually accomplishes Simu's supposed goals without taking anyone's current gear(/alters) away.

Like this idea a lot,its very good. But Simu has a tendency not to implement good ideas, just short term ideas that they'll need to patch up a couple years later.

[Gan]

Like this idea a lot,its very good. But Simu has a tendency not to implement good ideas, just short term ideas that they'll need to patch up a couple years later.

Thats called job security.

[Khariz]

In any event, these concerns could not be simpler to address:
Release a catastrophic breakage system (the specific mechanics are unimportant). Gear currently on characters (in lockers, etc.) is unbreakable so long as it remains on that specific character. This eventually accomplishes Simu's supposed goals without taking anyone's current gear(/alters) away.

As long as MY shit doesn't break, I don't give a crap what they do.

Oh, and I wasn't really making an analogy between the two things, Latrin. I was saying that a breakage system that negates 13 years of effort *reminded me* of the sense of intrinsic unfairness that the reality check of raising the minimum wage had.

Granted, I went a little overboard later in the post when I actually started talking about the merits of minimum wage increases vs. breakage. I suppose that was an analogy, but that wasn't really my overall point.

[Warriorbird]

Who says it negates 13 years of effort? You're just trying to make a slippery slope. It'd open the game up to more opportunities for good items.

[Gan]

Breakage to me would mean openhanded brawl/shield pures with throwaway shield/armor setups.

[Khariz]

Who says it negates 13 years of effort? You're just trying to make a slippery slope. It'd open the game up to more opportunities for good items.

LOL, read post one.

You get a cool item, which you have for two weeks before it breaks. Yay. You only paid 2 mil for it instead of 50 mil. Great, too bad you don't get to keep it.

Whereas under the current system, you save up 50 mil, buy a nice weapon from me, and you get to keep it FOREVER.

[Warriorbird]

Nonsense. You get a nice weapon, you perform maintenance, you don't hunt like an idiot...you keep it for years.

Your assumption that breakage is going to happen to every item is pretty loco and extreme. Many more nice weapons get released...they don't experience crappy weapon nerfs.

GS players just think they're the entire universe. Most breakage systems are not a big deal if you've played other games.

[oldanforgotten]

LOL, read post one.

You get a cool item, which you have for two weeks before it breaks. Yay. You only paid 2 mil for it instead of 50 mil. Great, too bad you don't get to keep it.

Whereas under the current system, you save up 50 mil, buy a nice weapon from me, and you get to keep it FOREVER.

Most of the more powerful items in the game are not weapons/armor shield. DB items, self mana items, self chargers, unlimited use items, etc. Will never be subject to breakage. And in the new candyland environment, those uber things are not nearly as uber anymore. Any old reject in 4x gear can hunt anywhere. Uber was the time of GS3, when those items meant more.
________
Honda Nsr150 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_NSR150)

[CrystalTears]

It should be handled as (I hate to say it) as Latrine suggests, where you don't lose the item, it doesn't break to complete failure, is repairable and increases breakage and cost as your level goes up. It will help with the economy greatly so long as it is Simu/NPC controlled, not done by PC forgers.

[Warriorbird]

Breakage would also move people more towards a player driven economy for a "political" argument.

[LazyBard]

I personally like breakage as long as its not catastrophic failure and the items are lost forever. But of course I liked when you dropped all your items when you decayed as well.

I personally feel there should be risks that arent within your control when hunting. Risks that you can minimize by preforming maintenance but still the risk none the less.

[Khariz]

Breakage would also move people more towards a player driven economy for a "political" argument.

It is a player driven economy. I enjoy being part of the 10% of players who own the economy (Tsin being the majority owner).

Tough cookies for everyone else that they didn't learn to buy low and sell high 13 years ago. Don't punish me because I was a good merchant though.

[CrystalTears]

No I disagree, the money needs to flow out more.

[Khariz]

No I disagree, the money needs to flow out more.

Good for you. Do you also think that if I earn 10 million dollars per year in real life my wealth should be re-distributed to the poor?

[Sypher]

To come to the defense of the little guy...

The newbie just starting out in GS does have some serious disadvantages. This mainly stems from in-game inflation. Take for example.

Items being worth 500k off some merchant 10 years ago are now going for 10 mil. To get 10 mil for a newbie now will take a year or more (talking true newbie starting at level 1), to get 500k 10 years back would have taken a full day to make if you knew what you were doing. The point is the inflation and what economists refer to in general as "wages" haven't gone up accordingly as do with most modern RL economies. Therefore, you'll just have the rich getting richer and the poor (unless they buy themselves in) will continue to struggle behind.

However, I do understand those that have played for a considerably LONG time and who did earn their keep as the system was setup during that time. But just like the stock market or a war or Katrina or some other calamity, things just change. Gotta change with it or get left behind.
Just my two cents.

[Khariz]

Items being worth 500k off some merchant 10 years ago are now going for 10 mil. To get 10 mil for a newbie now will take year or more, to get 500k 10 years back would have taken a full day to make if you knew what you were doing.

You can still make 500K in "a full day if you know what you are doing".

10 mil / 500k = 20 days.

OH NOES!

Edit: Oh don't worry, I read your whole post, I'm just picking on that one part, hehe. You had valid things to say.

[Celephais]

Tough cookies for everyone else that they didn't learn to buy low and sell high 13 years ago. Don't punish me because I was a good merchant though.
This is a really stupid statement.

Tough cookies for you that you didn't learn to not put your eggs in one basket. Don't punish everyone because you don't want breakage.

[Khariz]

This is a really stupid statement.

Tough cookies for you that you didn't learn to not put your eggs in one basket. Don't punish everyone because you don't want breakage.

My eggs on one basket? Now THAT is a "really stupid statement". In Gemstone, the only basket is Gemstone. There were no other baskets for me to put my eggs in. I own weapons, armor, fluff, enhansives, DB...what other baskets do you want me to use?

Breaking 1/2 to 3/4 of my items on a whim is fucking retarded though.

[Gan]

I think the very fact that I dont own over 100m in gear and or silvers anymore has made the game much more enjoyable for me.

[Khariz]

I think the very fact that I dont own over 100m in gear and or silvers anymore has made the game much more enjoyable for me.

I can actually understand that. Maybe I just need to cash out while the going is good, and get on with it.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm now in favor of breakage.

[Cademus]

I pulled out some old posts about 10 years back, talking about breakage. Apparently, even 10 years back people were still talking about the same issues we are now. An interesting read to say the least.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Kuromaku says, "I trust that those people will be suitably chastened when they, too, are expelled from their respective Guilds. At any rate, let's get started with the topics for tonight. Breakage. Whee. My statement first, then y'all can have a good shouting match. I understand the reasons why you DON'T like breakage, but let's discuss why we do. I've watched the prices of weaponry and armor increase exponentially over the last year to numbers that make it nigh on impossible to afford such things, especially for newer players. Further, the amount of weapons and armor that is being sold for real cash has increased in a huge way causing a lot of merchants to say, ‘Hey, forget it. I'm not selling this stuff so that some jerk can sell it for real cash.’ The cause and effect cycle goes something like this: The game is intended to have 5% of all warriors to have claids that are +10 or better. Seeing that the weapons never break, once you have one, you're not likely to give it up, so the same people ALWAYS have the heavier weaponry. I see that there's X weapons out there, so I can't sell any more of that type. The cost to purchase one of those weapons goes WAY up, which rules out any new players from having an item like that. And I mean new as in under a year. The numbers keep going up, but the number of weapons remains constant and in the same hands. If weapons broke, in order to maintain the same level percentage of high-class weaponry, more would have to be sold and at much lower prices. If more weapons are sold, more merchants would likely provide weighting and altering services to replace the weaponry that had gone lost. Now, go right ahead and raise your hands."

Graing grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Welan says, "1 quick comment. Breakage would be alot more palatable to me if, at the same time, some other excesses in the land were dealt with. For example, Heroism. Sold in unlimited quatities at the Spitfire and other merchants."

Kuromaku says, "Not any more. Nor Bravery, nor Phoen Strength, nor items of that type."

Welan asks, "New policy?"

Kuromaku says, "Old policy. New enforcer."

Welan asks, "Well, that’s some improvement. No self-cast only items?"

Kuromaku says, "Nope, with a few minor exceptions. Heal 2, etc."

Thrudh asks, "What of the unique items, such as Berr's claidh, Kali's warblade, and, if I may be so bold, Dogor. We're just gonna see them be tossed away, stuff to talk about, but don't care if they're kept in the lands?"

Kuromaku says, "Tough call. My theory is this: Weapons such as that are ‘legendary.’ A "legendary" weapon might well be unbreakable. Hence, its legend. It is indeed possible that certain rare weapons might be unbreakable, and become legendary along the way, but the existing weapons as they stand will probably not fit that bill right now. I understand the loss, Thrudh. I just can't reconcile your situation with 13,000 other players. I know 10-15 weapons will be dearly missed if lost, and not just by the owner. I am in no position to make amends or excuses. What's good for any must be good for all, and it sucks sometimes. It's something that, ultimately, we will deal with."

Khazaan says, "As I see it, the people with the highest weapon enchants are the ones who don’t even use the weapons. I’m sure the gods know how many high-priced weapons and armor sit in the lockers of mages and sorcs. The existence of those items will skew the availability. Are there plans to get the 8X and 10X weapons out of the hands of casters that use them for defense only, or can’t you comment on that? The ones who hold the weapons will see their value rise constantly."

Kuromaku says, "You can lose a weapon, even if you never swing it. Any questions? I insisted on that. Looks like I made it worse for us, but, in reality, I made it worse for casters."

Khazaan asks, "Not wanting to be an example, can you show us how it works?"

Kuromaku says, "No."

Ravinold says, "Breakage will mean the end of OHE non-hiding fighters. I can’t hunt without a highly ET’d and weighted weapon, and I know I can’t afford to buy new ones."

Kuromaku says, "No, it won't. That's part 3 of this conversation, Ravinold, and why I chose the three topics I did."

Pyranth says, "I want to make sure I have this right before I go off. Are you saying catastrophic breakage is in, and you can't protect a personal treasure in your locker?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not commenting on "catastrophic" breakage, and if you leave an item in your locker, it's perfectly safe. Have fun with it. I think that people who locker weapons with NO intent of using them are being silly, but that's just me."

Pyranth says, "Well then the point of breakage becomes moot. I see that my ultra-morphing 10X waraxe is taking damage. I retire it until it can be repaired. No gain."

Kuromaku says, "I believe that there is always a chance that a weapon may be permanently lost. And having used weapons, many of them, I understand why, completely."

Thrudh says, "There is a chance for catastrophic failure on every swing, per Ophion's talk at Simucon."

Jafirnn grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Titaniia says, "Well, I understand yer reasoning, but, speaking fer myself, I'm not rich."

Kuromaku says, "Nor will you need to be."

Titaniia says, "And I don't dare hunt with a ten-million-coin weapon. It’s like wearing my jewelery in a bad neighborhood at night. So, now I have this sabre--really nice weapon--and it’s gonna sit in my locker, ‘cause no one else is foolish enough to spend coins like that on weaponry considering breakage and its implications. So, it does take weapons out of circulation, but I don't think it does it in the way you intend."

Thrudh says, "If you'll recall, the last time that I saw Ugnarn, he took any non-claidh from 0X to 5X for less than 200K."

The hedgehog looks around worriedly as if it has been abandoned.

Kuromaku says, "And I suspect that that sort of thing will become more likely, Thrudh."

The hedgehog looks around worriedly as if it has been abandoned.

Kuromaku says, "I borrowed Kodos's Hedgehog."

Thrudh says, "And when Breighton was here shortly after that, he was adding 'massive' crits for 350K in 5X or better weapons. 250K for 4X and under. This was all post Ice Age. That's what Kuromaku is trying to say. They want to get back to that kind of pricing."

Gaq appears in a flash of light, looking slightly disoriented.

Kuromaku says, "Folks, all the things you're commenting on are a function of the fact that there is no breakage. If a weapon will eventually break, who in their right mind would spend 18 million on it? No one. The point is this: If you think you've got the be-all end-all weaponry and armor, you're probably ticked off. On the other hand, the cost to replace said items with a reasonable approximation will be FAR less than what you paid and will be more prevalent."

Titaniia asks, "Why did I pay to have my weapon strengthened? If it doesn't effect its chances of outright breakage..why bother?"

Kuromaku says, "And you paid for it, Tiny, to decrease that chance, like anyone else would."

Pyranth says, "I hear what I'm being told and feel I've been led down the primrose path."

Kuromaku says, "You believed what you wished. No GM in his or her right mind told you that breakage wouldn't return."

Geijon says, "Hmm, hokay. Let’s say a certain Giantman Warrior was to buy a "legendary" blade from his father. Now this blade is truly old, unique. 10X laen broadsword. For 18 million. Would a Master Forger be able to basically sleep with that blade, love it, nurture it and keep it in good shape, then gamble with the 1/1000th breakage on impact?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. But it still has a chance of breaking. Folks, I've used weaponry. I can't even tell you how many blades I've broken on the STUPIDEST things. I once broke a replica katana, folded a mere 60 times, on a PILLOW. Now, it HAPPENS. Bad snag. Rivet. Dent in the armor. Bone. It's BOUND to happen, and no amount of care is gonna save it. When a blade snaps in half, it's over."

Blaqtar asks, "Seems there's been pushing to take "excess" cash out of the bank accounts. Bringing in breakage and cheaper weapons/armor seems to go against that end. Is this supposed to be linked to that trend somehow, getting inflation under control?"

Kuromaku says, "It impacts it, certainly, but it's not the driving motivator."

Welan says, "My shield is only +20 but it is important to me because of the description and years of service. Any chance that when a weapon suffers catastrophic failure it doesn't just vaporize?"

Kuromaku says, "To be honest, I don't know. I'd kinda like remnants. At least to salvage for smelting or souvenirs. Stuff like that."

Welan asks, "But maybe you get a shard or something that you can take to a reforge and have it reforged if it isn't too powerful?"

Kuromaku says, "It's a good point. I'll bring it up."

Kuromaku points to a broken glaes club mounted on the wall.

Kuromaku asks, "See that, son? Broke that on Gaq's head. Stubborn fool."

Pyranth says, "Ok. I can buy into a weapon going on a bad shot, but, say, a full set of plate? I just can't see the whole thing disintigrating like glass."

(At this point my ISP failed me miserably as ISPs are wont to do. We pick up the story as our hero says)

Kuromaku says, "Perhaps full plate shatters to half plate, and from there to augmented breastplate, and from there to breastplate, and then destroyed, or damaged past the point of being protective."

Kamekaze says, " You said -blade snaps in half- . Can’t be fixed. What about blunt weapons?"

Kuromaku says, "Handle breaks, chain snaps on a flail, flanges break."

Kamekaze says, "Easy to fix."

Kuromaku says, "Mmm, yes and no. Some weapons are."

Kamekaze asks, "And magical properties are not in handles and chains, I suppose?"

Kuromaku says, "Magical properties are in the assembly, not in the pieces."

Hyoko says, "To expand a bit on what Sir Welan brought up. If we have nice customized shields and armor, could we request that the alterers be in the lands more, so we can have our new shields and armor customized the same?"

Kuromaku says, "Sure. Ask away. I'll do my part. Oh, one quick comment about breakage. Contrary to popular belief, it's not finished, nor is Ophion the one who's in charge of it. He's simply coding it, which isn't at all the same thing. Jaxxon, Banthis, and Fawn are responsible for the design and implementation, as you might well imagine."

Gaq says, "Why are do things have to break irrepairably? As we get older, and have slaved to buy our equipment, we become attatched to it. Why must we all walk around in tat, flailing cheapo blades? What is the benefit? Why bother going through endless tedium of mastering forging only to repair an item that will break anyway?"

Kuromaku asks, "Hmmm, in this game, eventually your character will die irrevocably. Why play? I'll take it even further. You know full well that the car you drive will die. Why learn to drive? You know that your computer will crash, why use it? Because if you live in fear of "inevitable" circumstances, you might as well not bother. And again, you have NO idea of the percentages. Oh, comment on the previous comment about Ophion: He has designed a great deal of it, and done some amazing work on it, but he doesn't have the final say. Which is what I was getting at and realized that I may have said it oddly. When your weapon breaks, it breaks. I wouldn't live in fear of it. But I AM living to see the look on a sorcerer's face when he suddenly finds himself short a weapon."

Gaq grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Brutii says, "I was wondering, what with all the intense focus on catastrophic breakage, what about regular breakage? Chances, and such, and can regular breaks be fixed?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not discussing chances."

Brutii asks, "Okies, but, is there regular breakage, and can we fix them?"

Kuromaku says, "And there's also no chance that breakage will come in without repair."

Khazaan asks, "Knowing that a warrior who wields a weapon, holds a shield and wears armor, has those things that might break, are two-handed warriors more apt to have their claidh or armor break?"

Kuromaku says, "No."

Khazaan says, "Hmmm, that doesn’t make sense."

Kuromaku asks, "How do you figure?"

Khazaan says, "Breakage is breakage, right?"

Kuromaku says, "Breakage doesn't work like: Random chance comes up, something hasta break."

Khazaan says, "So, if I’m standing there with my claidh, there’s no more chance that it will break than if I was holding a falchion and a shield?"

Kuromaku says, "No. Not even close. A claidh will break or not based on claid-targetted clashes."

Khazaan says, "What I’m asking is, will the claidh take more of a beating because there’s less things that can get hit? Or armor, for that matter?"

Kuromaku says, "I would think that a claid will be challenged more often, but I also would think that a claid would be commensurately stronger."

Khazaan says, "Take a gargoyle, for instance. He jumps at you, and you put up your shield."

Kuromaku says, "How gargoyles break items has no relationship on breakage."

Khazaan says, "No, no, no. I’m just using it as an example."

Kuromaku says, "Your argument is, if I parry with a shield, as opposed to my claidh..."

Khazaan says, "If you haven’t got a shield, what stops him?"

Kuromaku says, "You're missing my point, Khazaan. Listen. In any given melee you have 10 blows targetting you. If you have a claidh and armor, let's call it 5 blows apiece. If you have an OHE, a shield, and armor, it's 3.33 blows per item."

Khazaan says, "My point exactly. Your armor will get hit more often, no?"

Kuromaku says, "Right. The factor you're missing is relative strength. A claidh is relatively much stronger than a handaxe."

Khazaan says, "So we, as two-handed warriors, have less things that can break so, therefore are more apt to see breakage."

Kuromaku asks, "How the hell do you get that? Khazaan, let's say a claid is 10 times stronger than a handaxe. I have 5 blows aimed at the claid, and 3 at the handaxe..."

Khazaan says, "The claidh is not my main question. It’s more a question about armor. Our armor will be more apt to get hit more, correct? Because we don’t have a shield."

Kuromaku says, "The armor will receive more blows, yes, but I think it's a moot point when you're discussing plate. On average, perhaps 18% more."

Khazaan says, "I don’t wear plate, m'lord."

Kuromaku says, "Fine. Chain. Still moot."

Khazaan grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

Welan asks, "Is armor challanged on the hit, or on the parry, or both?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not prepared to discuss that at this time."

Rova says, "I would like to say, is the numbers of vultite or higher morning stars going to be higher? I am a blunt user, and morning stars are about the best in the blunt group. If my 5X morning star breaks, could I just go on the amulet or merchant and buy a new one? Cause so far I haven't seen too many vultite morning stars. Well, I havn't seen many on the amulet or merchants."

Kuromaku says, "The issue of relative quantities of blunt weapons, or polearms/two handers for that matter, should be addressed. I will make an effort, and HAVE made an effort, to insure that when weapons are sold at least SOME weapons of all representative groups are supported, providing it isn't some special merchant, i.e., no point in having halberds if all you're selling is bows. But it's been noted."

Pyranth says, "I just wanted to voice an opinion. The resistance you see, at least on my part, is based from the fact that we don't know what is all entailed."

Kuromaku says, "I'm aware of that. I know it's all fear of the unknown. And, unfortunately, I'm not in a position to enlighten. Personally, I wouldn't have mentioned breakage until one day...snap! Uh-oh. OK, I want to wrap this up. Any more on Breakage?"

Hyoko says, "One comment and one question on the reasoning you used a bit ago with Lord Gaq. I do buy computers, and cars, and such, and no, I don't put them away for fear of breaking. But when I buy them, they come with guarantees."

Kuromaku says, "Lemme guess. Why do I have to die irrevocably?"

Hyoko says, "If they break, I can get them fixed or replaced for nothing within a certain period. If the weapon I pay a lot for breaks on the first swing, I'm going to want to find that merchant. And I'm going to want to demand another weapon or my silver back."

Kuromaku says, "Try getting a guarantee on a baseball bat."

Hyoko says, "There is no guarantee, but I know how to hold a baseball bat so it doesn't break. And a baseball bat doesn't cost relatively what we're talking about."

Kuromaku says, "Certain items break. Very few people will guarantee those items."

Hyoko says, "And aluminum ones don't break."

Kuromaku says, "They do indeed. I've broken aluminum bats. You aren't hitting the right things."

Hyoko says, "Now, you have pegged my question. Why do I have to die irrevocably? You understand what I'm saying."

Kuromaku asks, "And as for irrevocably? You don't. But some day, you might. Forget a deed or 25. Run into a new soul-sucking critter. Who knows?"

Geijon says, "I'll hold my first comment since it wouldn't be constructive. The second is we're jumping ahead and arguing over breakage when we don't know or understand it fully and we havn't heard the flip side of it, repair. So breakage is one piece. We're trying to see the whole puzzle with one piece of it. That’s our fault, not yours, Kuromaku. So, mainly we're just confused. At least, I am."

Kuromaku says, "OK, we're done with this topic, I think."

Blaqtar asks, "When I'm using my claid, it has 0 defensive use when I'm in full offensive. It will still be targeted for the breakage, even though it's not used to defend. Will it only be at risk when I swing, or stance down and use it to defend?"

Kuromaku says, "I'm not prepared to discuss that."

Kuromaku says, "OK, Repair. Let's say this: Warriors will be doing repairing. It's their intended role, i.e., it's what we bring to the party. So no one else is gonna steal that. I can't go into details on repair for one excellent reason. It isn't designed fully yet."

Kamekaze asks, "Any profession will be able to repair? It’s going to be skill-based?"

Kuromaku asks, "No, and how can I answer that based on my previous statement? It isn't designed yet, Kame. Who the hell knows what it's based on? Repairing is not patching."

Reife says, "I would like to comment on how much forging skill will affect repair."

Kuromaku says, "Unknown at this time. Still being discussed. I'd like it to play a part, and vice versa."

Reife says, "And, not to step on some people's toes who belong to the Gryphons, but I would like to comment that if it figures heavily it’s hardly fair that they are well ahead of the rest of the lands on forging, simply for the lack of desire or opportunity to join."

Kuromaku says, "Reife, it won't matter. At least, not by the time breakage/repair is released."

[Celephais]

Breaking 1/2 to 3/4 of my items on a whim is fucking retarded though.
Tough cookies.

It's not retarded, especially if they implement a maintenance system that would prevent catastrophic destruction. Basically they're asking for a silver drain for hunting, obviously they won't drain more than you can make, because then no one could afford to hunt.

Sure the progress might seem unfair to you, but lets say there are 10 uber items in the land, and 6 people own them all, since there will never be any more, coins have ZERO value to these people, since why would you sell an uber item for coins when you couldn't buy one for coins. This means that no matter how much someone buys low/sells high they could never obtain an item like of that quality.

It's called heat death, without an outside influence there will eventually be an equilibrium and then nothing will happen.

[Tolwynn]

Basically they're asking for a silver drain for hunting, obviously they won't drain more than you can make, because then no one could afford to hunt.

Except pures, brawlers and voln-fu folk, people who use gear from Tykel's or genned on critters, etc, etc.

[Khariz]

I've watched the prices of weaponry and armor increase exponentially over the last year to numbers that make it nigh on impossible to afford such things, especially for newer players. Further, the amount of weapons and armor that is being sold for real cash has increased in a huge way causing a lot of merchants to say, ‘Hey, forget it. I'm not selling this stuff so that some jerk can sell it for real cash.’ The cause and effect cycle goes something like this: The game is intended to have 5% of all warriors to have claids that are +10 or better. Seeing that the weapons never break, once you have one, you're not likely to give it up, so the same people ALWAYS have the heavier weaponry. I see that there's X weapons out there, so I can't sell any more of that type. The cost to purchase one of those weapons goes WAY up, which rules out any new players from having an item like that. Graing grows indistinct. Slowly it dawns on you that he isn't there anymore.

[I understand this problem].


Kuromaku says, "Tough call. My theory is this: Weapons such as that are ‘legendary.’ A "legendary" weapon might well be unbreakable.

[My problem is, who would decide this? This is why I want all old items to be non-breakable, and new ones introduced starting now to break, assuming SOME kind of breakage system HAD to be introduces.]

I understand the loss, Thrudh. I just can't reconcile your situation with 13,000 other players. I know 10-15 weapons will be dearly missed if lost, and not just by the owner. I am in no position to make amends or excuses. What's good for any must be good for all, and it sucks sometimes. It's something that, ultimately, we will deal with."

[Wow. Just wow. This is the exact argument I'm fighting against. Equity for the sake of equity is bullshit when people wasted away their lives to earn something. While it's arguable that playing a game is not a legitimate venture that still doesn't mean that I haven't spend 13 years * 25+ hours per week playing this damn game, and don't expect wealth distribution to happen. Please, God, no.]


Titaniia says, "And I don't dare hunt with a ten-million-coin weapon. It’s like wearing my jewelery in a bad neighborhood at night. So, now I have this sabre--really nice weapon--and it’s gonna sit in my locker, ‘cause no one else is foolish enough to spend coins like that on weaponry considering breakage and its implications. So, it does take weapons out of circulation, but I don't think it does it in the way you intend."

[Exactly. I'd locker anything I have that's any good, assuming I kept playing. It would sit in my locker and rot. It would never break, but it would never get used either.]



If you think you've got the be-all end-all weaponry and armor, you're probably ticked off.

[Having the be-all end-all is part of the fun for me. Take it away, this game is no longer fun. Granted that wasn't always the case with me, but it is now. I realize I'm part of a low percentage of players that feels this way and has the silvers to be this way.]



Gaq says, "Why are do things have to break irrepairably? As we get older, and have slaved to buy our equipment, we become attatched to it. Why must we all walk around in tat, flailing cheapo blades? What is the benefit? Why bother going through endless tedium of mastering forging only to repair an item that will break anyway?"

[Exactly. Beautifully argued by Gaq. I miss him.]



Wow, Thanks for the post. The Part's I left in the quote are either things I really liked, or really hated about the positions taken. Things left in natural emphasis I liked. Things that I boldened worry me. My comments are interjected and bold in [Editor's brackets].

[CrystalTears]

Good for you. Do you also think that if I earn 10 million dollars per year in real life my wealth should be re-distributed to the poor?
How is me saying that the GS economy sucks because too much silver stays in the lands and doesn't go out, means that I'm a hippie, moron?

[Celephais]

Except pures, brawlers and voln-fu folk, people who use gear from Tykel's or genned on critters, etc, etc.
I'm saying they won't make repair costs so insane that people won't be able to hunt without gear.

You're wrong to think pures won't be affected... robes & lighter armor are weaker than heavier armors, runestaffs are weaker than weapons, they're still used in the parry clash formulas. If you're using less valuable equipment then you deserve the extra money you make hunting (which then lets you buy better equipment).

It's cyclical :) They make it so that as you hunt more and more you eventually reach the ability to get good equipment and keep it upkept, and since they can release more then more people are capable of obtaining good items.

[Khariz]

How is me saying that the GS economy sucks because too much silver stays in the lands and doesn't go out, means that I'm a hippie, moron?

Well, if that's what you are saying you are wrong. Too many silvers don't "stay in the lands". There are PLENTY of silver sinks for the average folks. The "problem", if there is one, is that too many silvers stay in the hands of too few (as in all the people with lets say over 200 million net worth, which makes up a low percentage of people overall).

That's what we were talking about. If you replied and intended your reply to mean something other than that...it's not me that was the moron.

[CrystalTears]

I don't believe there are enough, or large enough, money sinks. So what are the silver sinks?

[Gan]

The sad part of the silver sink concept is that in the end (with the large sinks like merchant flares/enchanting/padding) the cost remains and is usually passed along to the consumer or next consumer.

Not to mention that premium points are working in the exact opposite of silver sinks.

Additionally, if and when silver does become rarer, then that will just beef up the aftermarket (cash for items).

[Khariz]

Additionally, if and when silver does become rarer, then that will just beef up the aftermarket (cash for items).

Indeed. That's part of the reason my silverbase is tied up in assets right now. Silver's being worth so little today...way more beneficial to have nice items.

[CrystalTears]

Which is probably why I'm a believer of making special items, like altered or auction items, be account and/or character attuned. And then perhaps have a repair cost on items, regardless of whether they are actively being used or lockered, as an upkeep tax.

[Khariz]

I don't believe there are enough, or large enough, money sinks. So what are the silver sinks?

The biggest new one is called Alchemy and god damn is it rediculous.

Merchants (did you see the tens of millions that people spend on PERFUME? My god, I was astounded).

Guilds, non-player shops, player-shops (silver percentage cut), housing. I could probably think about about 20 more.

[Khariz]

Which is probably why I'm a believer of making special items, like altered or auction items, be account and/or character attuned. And then perhaps have a repair cost on items, regardless of whether they are actively being used or lockered, as an upkeep tax.

Acutally, and ironically, being a merchant, I favor attuning as a solution rather than breakage.

I don't mind being condemned to use only what I have, with no possibility of selling it. I do mind it breaking though.

[CrystalTears]

I don't believe them to be considerable enough. :shrug:

[Warriorbird]

"It is a player driven economy. I enjoy being part of the 10% of players who own the economy (Tsin being the majority owner).

Tough cookies for everyone else that they didn't learn to buy low and sell high 13 years ago. Don't punish me because I was a good merchant though."

Most pernicious nonsense posted in this thread. You want an exceedingly high cost of entry and you're inhibiting free trade, thus reducing your potential total transactions.

Gan...why are cash sales bad?

Neither of you would ever oppose free trade outside of GS.

[Khariz]

"It is a player driven economy. I enjoy being part of the 10% of players who own the economy (Tsin being the majority owner).

Tough cookies for everyone else that they didn't learn to buy low and sell high 13 years ago. Don't punish me because I was a good merchant though."

Most pernicious nonsense posted in this thread. You want an exceedingly high cost of entry and you're inhibiting free trade, thus reducing your potential total transactions.

Gan...why are cash sales bad?

But I'm not arguing viability of future sales here, dude. I'm arguing "I want my cool shit that I use to not break". I don't care if I can't merchant any more. I still have my Lightsabers of D00m and whatnot.

[CrystalTears]

I wouldn't want to see items broken to the point of not usable, but I don't mind repair and upkeep costs for wear and tear, or even rust for sitting around in a locker. :D

[Khariz]

I wouldn't want to see items broken to the point of not usable, but I don't mind repair and upkeep costs for wear and tear, or even rust for sitting around in a locker. :D

Assuming all they want is another "silver sink", I'm fine with this implementation. As long as my items can never break, nor do they "degrade" over time and become less effective, I'm cool.

I'll drop 5k per hunt to keep my shit in perfect unbreakable condition, and if that's all they want, I'm game.

[Latrinsorm]

As long as MY shit doesn't break, I don't give a crap what they do.Somewhere Ayn Rand is cackling maniacally.
I suppose that was an analogy, but that wasn't really my overall point.Noted.
Do you also think that if I earn 10 million dollars per year in real life my wealth should be re-distributed to the poor?It is to a significantly higher degree IRL vs. GS.
It should be handled as (I hate to say it) as Latrine suggests, where you don't lose the item, it doesn't break to complete failure, is repairable and increases breakage and cost as your level goes up.That's not really what I meant, though. :D People would absolutely be losing items (via complete failure), but only items that they didn't have before breakage was implemented. A degradation system would just be monotonous. Cycling through items, you might have a 5x acid flarer one month, a 6x hcw the next, and so on.

I'm not especially interested in what Kuramako had to say. The guy's been gone for a long ol' time: I would be very hesitant in considering anything he said current Simu thought.

[CrystalTears]

Oh then no, not what Latrine stated. Whew! Game on!

[Tolwynn]

If the ostensible reason for this is realism (of a sort), they could go a lot further towards making it a lot moreso, and yet still palatable to players.

When they did the test activation back when, I had one time when on a walk between the Landing gate and the boot to River's Rest, kobolds with javelins catastophically shattered a 10x veil iron weapon and a 10x golvern shield three times each. These were ostensibly some of the strongest metals in the game, with the most powerful enchants possible, and a kobold with a frigging stick could utterly destroy them with relative ease.

They could put in limiters in some places, to prevent stupid things like that from happening. It's pretty inane to think that a kobold with a flimsy stick is as likely to break an item as, say, ten tons of animated glaes, a lesser daemon, or one of Illoke's massive stone minions.

Make it where critters you can't learn from have a reduced or zero chance of breaking your gear, say. Balance it with far more powerful critters having an even better chance, reflecting their superior skill, strength or power.

Make it where a glancing strike from a dagger can't cause an entire suit of full plate to completely fall apart. Make it a fairly good chance of just that same thing happening if you take multiple rank 3 wounds in one shot - being completely run through by a lance, incinerated, imploded, disintegrated, what have you.

As it stands, it's a pretty huge leap of faith assuming that if breakage is implemented, that the proverbial floodgates will open on rare and powerful items. If just the breakage happens, and the new items don't come, who benefits then?

[Celephais]

Balance it with far more powerful critters having an even better chance, reflecting their superior skill, strength or power.
And the newb who accidently walks out into an invasion not only dies, but has all his gear shattered in a single blow. (this could be offset by turning off breakage during invasions... which would mean that come invasion time everyone straps on their best equipment).

But then still the lower level character making the dangerous trek across the spine better only make the trek w/ shitty gear exposed.

[Tolwynn]

But then still the lower level character making the dangerous trek across the spine better only make the trek w/ shitty gear exposed.

Or pay a staggering 1k to be escorted by a travel guide who effectively sancts the entire way.

[Methais]

Simu should just make people raid for epics.

[CrystalTears]

Heh, no. I'd quit.. again.

[Rinualdo]

I find this both ironic and amusing, as I left the lands 7 or so years ago specifically because of the breakage system. After being back 2-3 weeks, there's now discussion of reimplementing it?

Kudos to whoever posted the town hall meeting. In portion, I think it high lites why so many people were against breakage to begin with.
Breakage had been in discussion for several, several years and people took it as passing whim or one of the other thousand features that were promised but never realized. When items started showing up with str/dru on them, the player base got organized and motivated. Even in a mock combat system, people's items went through "shadow" catastrophic breakage.

What I don't understand is the motivation behind the discussion. From an economic standpoint, I am reticent to think that Simu would gain new revenue from the breakage system, though I can guarantee they will lose some. I highly doubt it would balance out. So, in my mind, why bother allocating resources and assets to a system that will drop revenue? It may have been more relevant 10 years ago when there was still an influx of new customers and the argument could be made about the longterm integrity of the game mechanics and economy, but with a sustained or slightly dwindling player base, I can not imagine that line of logic still holds true.

[Celephais]

Simu should just make people raid for epics.
First GS needs to become group friendly, currently groups just don't work very well.

I don't think we need raid equipment stuff, I just think there needs to be some better attrition mechanics to make grouping viable.

[Warriorbird]

My breakage proposal was no catastrophic breakage unless you neglect maintenance. I don't think that'd be much of an issue. People love to make mountains out of molehills though.

[Methais]

I was joking.

But they should make people pvp for epics.

[CrystalTears]

My breakage proposal was no catastrophic breakage unless you neglect maintenance. I don't think that'd be much of an issue. People love to make mountains out of molehills though.
/agreed

[Sypher]

I think breakage with a small time sink (perhaps 10 minutes per enchant on the weapon, with additional time for specials like weighting) and a large silver sink
(10% of assessed value or something similar) will do wonders for the GS economy.

It will keep inflation down and drain away silvers from the folks who've got a ton of silvers. But on the otherhand, the deflation will also boost the value of the items of those rich players. Couple this with unused items, slowly "decaying" when unused (not permanent though) and the need to maintain and upkeep these items. Then you'll have incentive for hoarders of uber items to sell more often. Puts the higher end items into greater circulation. (maybe even get some inactive accounts with a ton of stuff em to cash out and get those items into service).

[Gan]

Gan...why are cash sales bad?

Neither of you would ever oppose free trade outside of GS.

I've never been against after market sales. In fact, as one who participates in it, most recently I might add, I support the transferability of items for non GS assets.

PS. Your quoting style makes my head hurt. :(

[Sypher]

Anyhow my instincts says that breakage is coming real soon. And it won't be preannounced, I think they mean to ambush us. However, I don't believe it'll be detrimental to rich players.

[Khariz]

I am reticent to think that Simu would gain new revenue from the breakage system, though I can guarantee they will lose some. I highly doubt it would balance out. So, in my mind, why bother allocating resources and assets to a system that will drop revenue? It may have been more relevant 10 years ago when there was still an influx of new customers and the argument could be made about the longterm integrity of the game mechanics and economy, but with a sustained or slightly dwindling player base, I can not imagine that line of logic still holds true.

Exactly.

[Clove]

My thoughts on breakage and other efforts to make Gemstone more 'realistic'.

1. Why the fuck would you try to make a fantasy game involving mythical creatures, magic in all its forms, mythical creatures - undead - and other various lifeforms, and a whole pantheon of gods and goddesses realistic? ITS A GOD DAMN FANTASY GAME!!!

2. Expecting players to sit by and wait 1 to 2 weeks for a weapon to be repaired, or armor to be repaired is completely retarded. If you're going to implement weapon/armor degradation then it needs to be done like WoW where you find an NPC or someone skilled in that trade and have it repaired. This game is enough of a time sink as it is without waiting for something else as well.

Oh exactly. I've wanted breakage for years and years because the GS "economy" needs a SILVER SINK not a time sink. I think effective equipment should require periodic upkeep for a mild fee. I think items should break from time to time and be restorable for a costly fee. I don't think characters should be able to do the repairing (because that sabotages the concept of a silver sink).

[Clove]

Exactly.

Do a stat full sometime. Do you really think Simu cares about loss to player base?

[Drew]

Release a catastrophic breakage system (the specific mechanics are unimportant). Gear currently on characters (in lockers, etc.) is unbreakable so long as it remains on that specific character. This eventually accomplishes Simu's supposed goals without taking anyone's current gear(/alters) away.


This system is patently unfair to squares and many semis. I have a good portion of my GS net worth invested in weapons and armour. Let's say 80%. If you release this system my stuff might be worth 20% of it's original value, if that. A pure who doesn't need weapon and armour and has his money invested in magic items and the like that don't break sees his net worth rise. If you are coming up with a wealth redistribution system like breakage, at least make it so that items now break and self-chargers, DB items, enhancers, self mana items can't be sold either.

[Drew]

To come to the defense of the little guy...

The newbie just starting out in GS does have some serious disadvantages. This mainly stems from in-game inflation. Take for example.





When I came back to GS4 in 2004 I had 500k in my bank account and no items of note left as I'd given away all my coin and stuff when I left. Today I'd say my character has over 400 mil worth of stuff being conservative in my valuations. Hell I didn't even work hard to do it. I just specialized, bought low, sold high. I do maybe 30 minutes of merchanting a month. I've never silver hunted, I just used my regular hunting proceeds to finance me when I started.


So, a newbie is disadvantaged, just like any place you are new at, there is no system that is 100% fair to newbies. But all it takes is some effort and some intelligence (more of the latter than the former). If a lazy bastard like me can do it, anyone can.

[Warriorbird]

I don't believe you're as lazy as you claim.

I also believe we'd have better stuff with breakage and a more active economy.

[Latrinsorm]

a kobold with a frigging stick could utterly destroy them with relative ease.This is a gross overstatement, unless by "relative" you mean "relative to it being impossible".
It's pretty inane to think that a kobold with a flimsy stick is as likely to break an item as, say, ten tons of animated glaes, a lesser daemon, or one of Illoke's massive stone minions.It stands to reason that gear that only a fumble can break would be equally likely to break versus everything.
Make it where critters you can't learn from have a reduced or zero chance of breaking your gear, say.This would be awful. There are way too many mechanics based on level for no reason already.
As it stands, it's a pretty huge leap of faith assuming that if breakage is implemented, that the proverbial floodgates will open on rare and powerful items.Yes, induction is a huge leap of faith.
I am reticent to think that Simu would gain new revenue from the breakage system, though I can guarantee they will lose some. I highly doubt it would balance out.Based on what, exactly? You don't even know what breakage system they'd hypothetically be coming out with.
This system is patently unfair to squares and many semis.The secondary market is patently ridiculous.

[Rinualdo]

Based on what, exactly? You don't even know what breakage system they'd hypothetically be coming out with..
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was referring to a breakage system similar to what they previously attempted to implement.
Anything else would have to be judged on its own merits.

I stand by the other point, however, that even in an acceptable form, Simu has better things to allocate their resources I feel.

[Celephais]

This system is patently unfair to squares and many semis. I have a good portion of my GS net worth invested in weapons and armour. Let's say 80%. If you release this system my stuff might be worth 20% of it's original value, if that. A pure who doesn't need weapon and armour and has his money invested in magic items and the like that don't break sees his net worth rise. If you are coming up with a wealth redistribution system like breakage, at least make it so that items now break and self-chargers, DB items, enhancers, self mana items can't be sold either.
Most pures have armor/shield/weapons/runestaffs that are considerably weaker than a squares. I would also think they should factor in things like shield use/weapon use/armor use for breakage. If you don't know how to use armor, the more likely you are to break it.

I would also agree that things other than sheild/weapons/armor should be suseptible to breakage/maintenance/repair. But keep in mind that rechargers are already suseptible to castrophic failure, but things like selfmana, db... yeah I agree they need some consideration.

[Sean of the Thread]

Who wants to start a Initiate Breakage petition!!! Down with the pompous asses!

[Clove]

I stand by the other point, however, that even in an acceptable form, Simu has better things to allocate their resources I feel.

I can respect this opinion, but GS has needed an income drain for a long, long time. As it is now the only silver sinks are deeds, tips/healing herbs and even that is fairly avoidable or if not a neglible drain. Sure there are items that entice people, but the reality is a character can put together a good set of gear and use it forever without ever investing income beyond its initial purchase. This is what allows characters to accumulate massive wealth.

Heck my characters haven't spent silver on anything but tips, herbs, deeds and in one case constable fines for literally years. Occassionally there is interesting fluff or an alteration that crosses my path but rarely does it even dent their bank accounts.

Let me state again that I don't think breakage should destroy items. Only cause characters to have to expend income to keep their gear useable.

[Warriorbird]

I'd love to have breakage and deeding return. Sadly neither will happen.

[LazyBard]

Oh you mean making death actually mean something again? Since even with deaths sting you can negate the majority of its negitive effects. Only thing I think that stays after you get the potions is the exp reduction please correct me if I am wrong. But without the fear of dropping items or losing your character forever when you have no deeds if a character who is capped or near cap dies its more of a inconvience then anything else.

[Gan]

Deeding/demonic needed to go away, simply because going demonic could be forced upon the player by other players abusing the system.

If you go demonic because of your own carelessness then its all on you. But since they could not seperate that, then they chose correctly in taking it all away.

[Fallen]

I bet Priestess potions have sucked quite a bit of silver out of the lands.

[Khariz]

I bet Priestess potions have sucked quite a bit of silver out of the lands.

Heck yeah, they have.

I also made a partial list above, but here they are again:

GM Merchants merchanting crap (perfumes selling tens of millions for example)
Alchemy (my god)
Guild Dues
Herbs
Non-PLayer Shops (Weapons, Armor, Pure Potions, etc)
PLayer Shops Tax Cuts
Priestesses for Death's Sting
Deeds (indirect, gems, wands, etc)
Fun GM Stuff (tattoos, sproink, etc)

And Many more. All are silver sinks.

[Rinualdo]

I wonder how much silver each week is generated through the west gate guard?

[Khariz]

I wonder how much silver each week is generated through the west gate guard?

Eh, he shouldn't collect much unless people are lazy. Now, Icemule with all three gates being proweled by guards...

hehe.

[Gan]

All my travel scripts go through the north gate.

Landing citizens dont pay the gate fee to use it when they're checking on bounties. ;)

[Drew]

Most pures have armor/shield/weapons/runestaffs that are considerably weaker than a squares. I would also think they should factor in things like shield use/weapon use/armor use for breakage. If you don't know how to use armor, the more likely you are to break it.



Most pures are runestaff users. There are very few nice runestaves and almost all of them are totally replaceable. Armour is the only thing a pure would have to worry about. An average square semi has at least one set of armour, often a shield, and an undead and living weapon.



I would also agree that things other than sheild/weapons/armor should be suseptible to breakage/maintenance/repair. But keep in mind that rechargers are already suseptible to castrophic failure, but things like selfmana, db... yeah I agree they need some consideration.


Self-chargers have no catastrophic failure. Only plain ol' rechargeables which aren't actually nice items. Every breakage system I've seen proposed so far does two things: 1. Punishes people who have succeeded (BAD YOU, DOING WELL IS BAD!), and 2. Punishes semis and squares.

[Warriorbird]

None of those money sinks are anywhere near the sheer amount of loot the game puts out.

[Latrinsorm]

Not every detrimental change is "punishment". As much as people QQ about Warden, there are grander reasons for (some) changes that are personally downtweaks.

[Sypher]

I agree that Pures need to have a type of breakage too, since arguably through enchanting and soon ensorcelling and alchemy etc plus being one of the best silver hunters they really are probably the wealthiest in terms of sheer coinage. Whenever they use their magic item perhaps there is a chance for it to malfunction and break or after several uses it could wear out. They can then bring this item to the wizards' tower for it to be repaired.

Further, the chance for breakage for armors can be based upon the armor use skill. The less of it you have the more likely you'll not know how to effectively use your armor to best capacity and thus ruin it more often then a professional who does.

[CrystalTears]

None of those money sinks are anywhere near the sheer amount of loot the game puts out.
/agreed

That's twice today, WB. You're starting to freak me out. ;)

[Warriorbird]

Hell...I usually agree with Parkbandit, CT...

...

...

...when discussing GS.

;)

[Ignot]

In addition to breakage I also want my clothes to get worn down and dirty so I have to wash them. Then I can spend 2-3 hours running a wash clothes script. That would be really fun. oh! How about implementing a system that wears down my shoes! Then I can be forced to buy new ones after so many steps taken in said shoes. I guess they should add a "housekeeping" skill so we can train in better ways to keep up with washing our gear and managing our shoes.

I would also love it if I had to eat, shit, brush my teeth, take a shower, and sleep in game. That would be realistic which equals fun.

.....breakage is stupid.

[Methais]

In addition to breakage I also want my clothes to get worn down and dirty so I have to wash them. Then I can spend 2-3 hours running a wash clothes script. That would be really fun. oh! How about implementing a system that wears down my shoes! Then I can be forced to buy new ones after so many steps taken in said shoes. I guess they should add a "housekeeping" skill so we can train in better ways to keep up with washing our gear and managing our shoes.

I would also love it if I had to eat, shit, brush my teeth, take a shower, and sleep in game. That would be realistic which equals fun.

.....breakage is stupid.

While we're at it, let's force people to use the BREATHE verb nonstop. Otherwise they'll die.

[Warriorbird]

Because breakage is totally about realism rather than item attrition (or fictive item attrition) and a money sink...

[Khariz]

Nonsense. You get a nice weapon, you perform maintenance, you don't hunt like an idiot...you keep it for years.



Dude, you are one of the ones advocating a maintenance system based breakage to not permanently remove items from the game.

Have to maintain items just for the sake of wasting time and silvers is...

Adding a pretense of realism for the sake of a time/money sink.

[Warriorbird]

It still happens. People are too stupid to repair their stuff all the time. DR you can keep your stuff indefinitely...if you're careful. People break stuff a lot.

[Clove]

Heck yeah, they have.

I also made a partial list above, but here they are again:

GM Merchants merchanting crap (perfumes selling tens of millions for example)
Alchemy (my god)
Guild Dues
Herbs
Non-PLayer Shops (Weapons, Armor, Pure Potions, etc)
PLayer Shops Tax Cuts
Priestesses for Death's Sting
Deeds (indirect, gems, wands, etc)
Fun GM Stuff (tattoos, sproink, etc)

And Many more. All are silver sinks.


Yeah. And Jamaica has an "Air Force". You're hilarious. The only significant silver sinks you mention are elective. The ones that are largely unavoidable (herbs/deeds/priestess potions/tips) are insigificant compared to income.

[Khariz]

Yeah. And Jamaica has an "Air Force". You're hilarious. The only significant silver sinks you mention are elective. The ones that are largely unavoidable (herbs/deeds/priestess potions/tips) are insigificant compared to income.

You are right. The rest of the income is going in my pocket when you buy 150 million coin armor from me. Thanks.

[Martaigne]

I won't feel the slightest pang of regret if they do implement breakage and you take your 15 or so buddies that own 75% (or whatever arbitrary number you pick) of the wealth in GS and quit out of spite, taking all those items with you, including the 150 million coin armor. Mainly because I don't have them anyway, and never will, so I won't notice an appreciable difference.

It's just stuff. More than that, it's just text stuff. More can be made.

[Khariz]

I won't feel the slightest pang of regret if they do implement breakage and you take your 15 or so buddies that own 75% (or whatever arbitrary number you pick) of the wealth in GS and quit out of spite, taking all those items with you, including the 150 million coin armor. Mainly because I don't have them anyway, and never will, so I won't notice an appreciable difference.

It's just stuff. More than that, it's just text stuff. More can be made.

That's cool. I mean...what can anyone say to this?

I understand that people won't feel bad to see us go. Ain't gonna go quietly though.

[CrystalTears]

Because the game may need you to take care of your weapons with repair and upkeep costs? Just like several games out there already do? Because you can't keep your millions forever and ever and ever? Hell not even have to pay interest at the bank? QQ

[Warriorbird]

Man, Khariz...you make me more in favor of breakage than ever.

[CrystalTears]

Man, Khariz...you make me more in favor of breakage than ever.
/agreed

(Yeah it's just a GS thing, we don't see politically eye to eye ;))

[Rinualdo]

Honestly, I don't see the point in arguing or discussing something that there's no credible evidence to suggest its even on the discussion table.

[Martaigne]

That's cool. I mean...what can anyone say to this?

I understand that people won't feel bad to see us go. Ain't gonna go quietly though.

Actually, I was pretty ambivalent about you (collective) leaving, though after reading your posts in this thread, I'm starting to lean towards "mildly ecstatic". Your replies reveal, whether intentional or not, a staggering amount of egocentricity, which is never healthy for a community. My post was solely in regards to the uber leet loot disappearing forever.

If you want to make an ass of yourself as you leave, though, that's entirely your call.

[Warriorbird]

Kitrina apparently mentioned something vaguely about liking the idea of a breakage system sort of similar to what I was in favor of at the Con. That's the only vaguely recent mention of it anywhere.

[Martaigne]

Honestly, I don't see the point in arguing or discussing something that there's no credible evidence to suggest its even on the discussion table.

Because debate is fun.

And so is bludgeoning the corpses of deceased equines.

[Clove]

You are right. The rest of the income is going in my pocket when you buy 150 million coin armor from me. Thanks.

You're missing the point of income drains within games which is impressive given that there are so many examples in similar products. It primarily controls "inflation" of items and keeps players' "spending power" within a planned range. I use quotes because game economies are all quasi-systems, but GS IV's system is very flawed and something like breakage could go a long way towards improving it. That you're either incapable or unwilling to make this observation is telling.
:club:

[Warriorbird]

This almost is political to me too. I'm generally in favor of free trade.

[Khariz]

Because the game may need you to take care of your weapons with repair and upkeep costs? Just like several games out there already do? Because you can't keep your millions forever and ever and ever? Hell not even have to pay interest at the bank? QQ

Again that IS NOT THE SYSTEM I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Jesus fucking Christ people.

I'm talking about a system of CATASTROPHIC BREAKAGE, the system that Simu has discussed in the past, NOT some silly repair system implemented as a coin sink.

If they implement a silver sink, I won't give a shit.

Edit: Not the thing Kitrina, who is not in charge of the breakage deal, said a while back.

[Khariz]

You're missing the point of income drains within games which is impressive given that there are so many examples in similar products. It primarily controls "inflation" of items and keeps players' "spending power" within a planned range. I use quotes because game economies are all quasi-systems, but GS IV's system is very flawed and something like breakage could go a long way towards improving it. That you're either incapable or unwilling to make this observation is telling.
:club:

I'm not incapable or unwilling to make the OBSERVATION. I'm saying, I have the cookies and I wanna keep em. Thanks.

Edit: And this post was originally about the fundamental unfairness of punishing me for being a good merchant by fucking up everything I have attained over years. (With a catastrophic breakage system, not a repair system).

[Clove]

I'm not incapable or unwilling to make the OBSERVATION. I'm saying, I have the cookies and I wanna keep em. Thanks.

Edit: And this post was originally about the fundamental unfairness of punishing me for being a good merchant by fucking up everything I have attained over years. (With a catastrophic breakage system, not a repair system).

It wouldn't be punishing you. That you thrived on a poorly planned system isn't an obligation for anyone not to change or improve it. Arguments like yours are like wheel chair factories complaining about polio vaccines destroying their business. All things (good and bad) come to an end. Quit being an ass.

[Khariz]

It wouldn't be punishing you. That you thrived on a poorly planned system isn't an obligation for anyone not to change or improve it. Arguments like yours are like wheel chair factories complaining about polio vaccines destroying their business. All things (good and bad) come to an end. Quit being an ass.

It's not a poorly planned system. It's a system that people like me (and anyone else who cares to buy anything in game and sell it at a profit, rinse and repeat) have learned to take advantage over. When over a decade goes by, people who have done this the whole time are *GASP* more rich than other people.

The same thing is going to happen when breakage is implemented. Us merchants will just have to switch over to non-breakable things (containers, DB, etc.), and repeat the process. I just don't need simu implementing some shitty system that doesn't NEED implemented in the first place.

As this guy on the Officials said. It makes no sense for them to implement a system that will alienate a portion of the player base, only to make the remainder only marginally happier than the current state they are in now. Gemstone does not need wealth re-distribution.

[Warriorbird]

I bet there could be a correlation between this system and game population decline as a whole...

[Khariz]

I bet there could be a correlation between this system and game population decline as a whole...

No, THAT system is called "Gemstone IV".

[Warriorbird]

Happened well before that. Though I was against most of Lohlem's ideas...the big irony was that he apparently was too. He quit after they implemented them.

[Khariz]

Happened well before that. Though I was against most of Lohlem's ideas...the big irony was that he apparently was too. He quit after they implemented them.

LOL! That's perfect.

[Clove]

It's not a poorly planned system. It's a system that people like me (and anyone else who cares to buy anything in game and sell it at a profit, rinse and repeat) have learned to take advantage over. When over a decade goes by, people who have done this the whole time are *GASP* more rich than other people.

The same thing is going to happen when breakage is implemented. Us merchants will just have to switch over to non-breakable things (containers, DB, etc.), and repeat the process. I just don't need simu implementing some shitty system that doesn't NEED implemented in the first place.

As this guy on the Officials said. It makes no sense for them to implement a system that will alienate a portion of the player base, only to make the remainder only marginally happier than the current state they are in now. Gemstone does not need wealth re-distribution.

Gemstone doesn't need wealth redistribution, but Gemstone does need better control over how much potential power an individual character has including spending power. It's a common consideration in other games. That it isn't balanced in Gemstone is a flaw. You could be a good merchant and the "richest guy in town" in a more balanced system too so I reiterate- quit being an ass.

[LazyBard]

If I dont get things the way I want them and I cant be the pinnacle of a text based game I will take my toys and go home!



About what it sounds like to me

[Khariz]

About what it sounds like to me

The only reason that's not quite accurate is because I'm just asking for things to stay the same as they have been. I'm not asking for any change in my favor. I'm also agreeing to all forms of breakage except a system of catastrophic breakagae.

[Sypher]

Ok Khariz. NOONE here is talking about Catastrophic breakage. Only temporary breakage, with money sink repair for it. This benefits you, me, the little guy, the middle income, and the newbies. It's a win win for everyone. seriously.

[Khariz]

Ok Khariz. NOONE here is talking about Catastrophic breakage. Only temporary breakage, with money sink repair for it. This benefits you, me, the little guy, the middle income, and the newbies. It's a win win for everyone. seriously.

I started the thread. I was talking about Catastrophic breakage. All official breakage discussions from simu have been about Catastrophic breakage.

All of these silly maintenance systems imagine up by folks here are ... reasonable systems. Simu's stance on breakage has never been reasonable.

Perhaps with Kitrina in the mix now, they will wake the fuck up.

[Drew]

Ok Khariz. NOONE here is talking about Catastrophic breakage. Only temporary breakage, with money sink repair for it. This benefits you, me, the little guy, the middle income, and the newbies. It's a win win for everyone. seriously.


Not really, most of the systems are progressive and hurt people who have nice items more than those who don't. I have no problem with silver sinks per se (even though they won't do anything to fix Gem's economy ( http://www.mine-control.com/zack/uoecon/uoecon.html there's a good article to read)) as long as they aren't essentially a wealth redistribution or wealth balancing scheme. If a vultite longsword costs 10k to repair and a vultite longsword with crit weighting costs 500k to repair, I'm opposed to that system. I'm opposed to any system that punishes you for already having done well and rewards you for not having done so yet.

[TheEschaton]

Conservative even in Gemstone. At least you're consistent in your idiocy.

[Warriorbird]

So what would you do to "fix" the economy, Drew?

[Drew]

So what would you do to "fix" the economy, Drew?


In what scenario: do I have absolute power and no concern for losing players, or something that won't lower the subscriber base significantly?

[Drew]

Conservative even in Gemstone. At least you're consistent in your idiocy.



Listen man, I'm sorry I did well in Gemstone. I've done it twice now too! When I started playing and when I returned. I know that makes me a bad person. I know everyone else who hasn't done as well deserves my silvers divvied up and distributed to their bank accounts. I'm sorry, I really am sorry for being such an idiot.

[Warriorbird]

In what scenario: do I have absolute power and no concern for losing players, or something that won't lower the subscriber base significantly?

Both scenarios...and even as someone who's done well you can't tell me there aren't issues with the current economy.

[TheEschaton]

I've done well too. I'd say I probably have a couple hundred mill in items too. A shop, 50 mil in coins lying around, so on, so forth.

At the end of the day, though, do I mind having to pay more for my elite items than some n00b pays for his vultite sword? Nope - that only seems eminently reasonable to me.

-TheE-

[Drew]

So what would you do to "fix" the economy, Drew?


Both scenarios...and even as someone who's done well you can't tell me there aren't issues with the current economy.


Ok, the first would be a hard reboot. Fixing a broken economy without shocking it is much harder. It's much easier to just restart. That's essentially impossible though, and not something I'd like to see.



The second is this: tie skills to resources and limit them. Tie the treasure system to hunting pressure and an absolute amount of resources. The problem with silver sinks is that they just slow inflation, as long as the game mints silvers out of nothing (a la the current treasure system) you can't fix the problem. Same thing with vultite, leather, everything else. I'd put the majority of my dev resources into the mining/smelting system. When that is finished you fire up the system and you define a finite amount of vultite tied to the amount of active accounts (let's arbitrarily say 60,000 pounds a year). For the first year you make that system give 70k pound to give an extra abundance as people learn to smelt and are less efficient at it. As more accounts sign up, the amount of vultite yielded per year is ramped up per each account or if net accounts drop the amount of vultite that can be mined is lowered (vultite represents all metals for the sake of this discussion). Now you get rid of Tykel's and every other weapon shop in the game, or perhaps convert them into consignment shops. Using the forging and mining skills is the only method for players to buy weapons, no set price like tykel's that destroys the market and observes no laws of supply and demand.

You do the same thing with cloak maker NPC, clothing makers, lockpick makers etc. The furrier will change from an NPC that gives a set amount of silver per skin to someone who turns skins into leather that can be used to make clothing, shoes, and cloaks, or exchanged for cloth for making clothing. The pawn shop will need to be removed. Anything that pumps out silvers with no limits will have to be removed (gemshop is the only other thing that strikes me right now).


The treasure will have to be revamped to give off realistic treasure. They have to be finite in nature. For instance, let's assume 500 trolls are killed daily and we assign the trolls in that area as producing 800 pounds vultite daily, along with 1800 rolls cotton, 300 skins leather, and stealing 28,000 silvers daily. The earliest trolls killed will give off a greater percentage of that treasure, as more and more are hunted they will give off less treasure until the point where they give out 0. The pawn shop will not buy these items for a set amount as current. Players can either sell them at playershops, or they can go to the pawnshop where producer players have put in a buy order at a certain price. Pawnshops may undercut the lowest buy orders put in and take an even lower price for a short period of time.

At this point you can go two ways, you can create a degradation system (on every item in the game) which is the easier of the two ways to balance the system, but most likely totally unfeasible in Gemstone (see option: hard reboot). The other is that you create less resources than their is demand for new sword/cloak/dress/magic potion/whatever so that current ones eventually have to be sacrificed to create enough resources to make new ones. This requires more careful management of resources than the first system.

The most important thing to fix the economy are the removal of merchants who sell things at a set price and the current treasure system that creates infinite silvers. Those are the reasons for inflation in gemstone, it's not lack of silver sinks, it's that infinite silvers can be created. Unless you create a silver sink that can exactly take away the number of silvers created you don't fix the problem.





PS: This assume inflation is a problem. If there are no NPC merchants to set arbitrary prices then there isn't actually much of a problem, it just creates a worktocracy, the people with the most silvers are those who farm the longest. The pie is just ever increasing, people who sit on ass like me lose out .

PPS: Items are the savings bonds of elanthia, anything that can't be created by the infinite amount of silvers like vultite can. If you have 50 million coins, go buy 10 fel-hafters (a diverse number of items like that would be better still). If you do that, inflation is fairly meaningless to you. This also explains why a lot of Gemstone outside of items artificially deflated by NPC merchants is a barter economy.

[Warriorbird]

Articulate and well thought out. Thanks for posting.

[Rinualdo]

The treasure will have to be revamped to give off realistic treasure. They have to be finite in nature. For instance, let's assume 500 trolls are killed daily and we assign the trolls in that area as producing 800 pounds vultite daily, along with 1800 rolls cotton, 300 skins leather, and stealing 28,000 silvers daily. The earliest trolls killed will give off a greater percentage of that treasure, as more and more are hunted they will give off less treasure until the point where they give out 0. The pawn shop will not buy these items for a set amount as current. Players can either sell them at playershops, or they can go to the pawnshop where producer players have put in a buy order at a certain price. Pawnshops may undercut the lowest buy orders put in and take an even lower price for a short period of time..

One problem I see with this is timing. Pick whatever time of the day you reset the treasure system, then consider the person who logged off just before that reset. You disadvantage players who aren't on at that time. If you created a rolling reset time, not only would that be resource intensive but very difficult for the casual player who may spend quite a bit of time traveling and testing to see which mobs give off decent treasure.

One of the things that item repair and degradation have going for it is the equality that it treats the player base (assuming no catastrophic destruction). Items would degrade and need repair according to use and have an appropriate silver sink to accomidate this. The guy who hunts one hour a week has the same proportionate cost as the guy who hunts 10 hours a day. To put it in another perspective, consider it like a flat tax that everyone pays. 5% (or whatever) of total income goes to item repair, whether that's 5% of 10,000 silvers a day or 5% of 10,000,000

I think any effort to produce a zero sum system is doomed to fail from a player base perspective. No one wants to strive just to break even.

[Sypher]

Not really, most of the systems are progressive and hurt people who have nice items more than those who don't. I have no problem with silver sinks per se (even though they won't do anything to fix Gem's economy ( http://www.mine-control.com/zack/uoecon/uoecon.html there's a good article to read)) as long as they aren't essentially a wealth redistribution or wealth balancing scheme. If a vultite longsword costs 10k to repair and a vultite longsword with crit weighting costs 500k to repair, I'm opposed to that system. I'm opposed to any system that punishes you for already having done well and rewards you for not having done so yet.

That just wouldn't work in GS though. Personally, I'm also a fiscal conservative too, but in the real world where the avenues for upward mobility is (generally) in-line with the rest of the economy.

As of GS. The reason why one should even consider a silver sink, is that it allows for just starting or recently started players to have a chance at owning a nice item (if they work towards it) while at the same time maintaining the value of the current weapons/armor/items in the game. All it's doing is allowing for the incredible amount of inflation (which btw much of it is caused by the top tier saturation hunting) to come down to reasonable levels. (perhaps pre 97')?

As of now, we suffer from double whammy inflation. You've got a ton of influx in silvers, with a ton of people who left (leaving behind silvers/items) which has saturated the market.

BTW, breakage doesn't hurt the value of your items. Mainly, because everything else will be subject to them your items will retain their original value. The only way your items will be affected is if GS releases a system of temporary "high end" items. Yes, then you'll be screwed.

[Sean of the Thread]

The economy in GS needs whacked. Hell the game needs whacked.

If they were to start over completely from scratch I'd come back. Fuck it buy another pentium II and start another server all together. I'd be the first to sign up for a restart.

[Latrinsorm]

Those are the reasons for inflation in gemstone, it's not lack of silver sinks, it's that infinite silvers can be created.One solution to infinite supply is to finitize it. Another is to balance it with infinite demand. Presto, no more inflation! :)
a worktocracyI'll take the place of 30 official forumers and say "GAME SHUD NOT BE WORK OMG".

This idea that any kind of breakage is punishment (or wealth distribution) is nothing more than emotional rhetoric, approximately on the level of "well anyone who's opposed to breakage is a greedy robber baron" (as opposed to those generous robber barons).

[Drew]

One solution to infinite supply is to finitize it. Another is to balance it with infinite demand. Presto, no more inflation!

Yes I said this.




:)I'll take the place of 30 official forumers and say "GAME SHUD NOT BE WORK OMG".


Well the current economy allows the most upwards mobility, and I agree in general because I don't play gemstone that much.

[Drew]

I think any effort to produce a zero sum system is doomed to fail from a player base perspective. No one wants to strive just to break even.


I agree, hence my mention that inflation need not be a bad thing. I was proposing how to "fix" the economy given that the general reason to support breakage is that "inflation is out of control" and breakage of weapons/armour/shields does nothing to fix that.

[Drew]

As of GS. The reason why one should even consider a silver sink, is that it allows for just starting or recently started players to have a chance at owning a nice item (if they work towards it) while at the same time maintaining the value of the current weapons/armor/items in the game.


Not really. If the silver sink takes equally from all players then it just lowers the amount of silver in the economy but does nothing for the % of inflation. If it's progressive then it depresses the value of nice weapons with the goal of making ownership of them easier. This, however, also depresses the ambition to own one since if you acquire one now you will see your net worth progressively lowered. Now it makes much more sense to invest your hard won silvers in magic items that will protect the value of your silvers.

[That Jay]

While we are talking about pipe dreams like hard reboots, consider this: destroy all silver. Some catastrophic mishap with alchemy creates a gas that proceeds to destroy all silver coins. ALL OF THEM. All the banks crash. Convert all shops to a BARTER system involving gems and skins and random treasure drops. You put things in a bag and then offer it to the merchant for an item. If the collection of items inside reaches the value inside, you get your "purchase". Have GM Merchants trade for their services only.

Certainly would not fix the economy but it might be fun.

[CrystalTears]

Oh goodie. Buying items in the same fashion as getting deeds. Commence the puking. :D

[Stanley Burrell]

While we are talking about pipe dreams like hard reboots, consider this: destroy all silver. Some catastrophic mishap with alchemy creates a gas that proceeds to destroy all silver coins. ALL OF THEM. All the banks crash. Convert all shops to a BARTER system involving gems and skins and random treasure drops. You put things in a bag and then offer it to the merchant for an item. If the collection of items inside reaches the value inside, you get your "purchase". Have GM Merchants trade for their services only.

Certainly would not fix the economy but it might be fun.

I vote for kobolds reclaiming the banks.

And coin hands.

[Stanley Burrell]

ko·bold /ˈkoʊbɒld, -boʊld/ (Pronunciation Key)

–(N. [in German folklore])
1. a spirit or goblin, often mischievous, that haunts houses.
2. a spirit that haunts mines or other underground places.

[Sypher]

Not really. If the silver sink takes equally from all players then it just lowers the amount of silver in the economy but does nothing for the % of inflation. If it's progressive then it depresses the value of nice weapons with the goal of making ownership of them easier. This, however, also depresses the ambition to own one since if you acquire one now you will see your net worth progressively lowered. Now it makes much more sense to invest your hard won silvers in magic items that will protect the value of your silvers.

The first point is a good one, but the second I would have to disagree. If it's progressive it won't depress the value of your item or more specifically the purchasing power of your item. You're thinking about it as absolute silver terms, while relative value is more important.

So, say three 10x falchions are worth 60 million silvers.You can buy 1 7x HCP plate armor for 60 million silvers. The economy deflates to half it's value with the new breakage. Then three 10x falchions are worth 30 million silvers and 1 7x HCP plate armor is worth 30 million silvers. Your ability to sell your 7x HCP plate armor to acquire 3 10x falchions (or any combination of items thereof) has not changed.

In other words, if you were the 2nd richest player in GS, you would remain the 2nd richest player in GS.

However, what changes is that the work needed to get silvers has diminished (less grinding). So if a 10th level newb wanted to save up for some 7x HCP plate armor, it won't take him years to acquire it. Further, you can't think of getting 60 million in your mindset. Most of us here are hardcore veterans who can go from 1-20 in like a month of play time and can get 60 million in 6 months or less. We know every trick and every mechanical advantage.

Anyhow, the above is just a statement of what many people who like breakage for money sinking is voicing. For some of you, you may not like the idea because you like living in your ivory towers and don't want the "little people" invading it (or at least invading it more then they are currently). Personally, I like the idea because I'm a pure and I get most of silvers from selling misc. items and cash hunting. But most of all I like it because it'll raise the prices of RL dollar for silvers in the short term, at least until item prices start catching up to their new post breakage values.

....and yes I'm greedy, so what?



But in retrospect, this type of breakage will never happen. Simu wants you on the rat wheel as long as possible, in fact in order to squeeze as much time (and thus dollars) from you it's in their best interest to actually increase inflation and make it that much more difficult for most of the pbase to attain that high end gear. By sheer coincidence the rich players in GS and Simu the company are allies, and thus the rich will continue to get richer while everyone else lags behind.

....unless you have no life and play like 10 hours a day.

[Clove]

...while relative value is more important...
...Your ability to sell your 7x HCP plate armor to acquire 3 10x falchions (or any combination of items thereof) has not changed. ...In other words, if you were the 2nd richest player in GS, you would remain the 2nd richest player in GS...However, what changes is that the work needed to get silvers has diminished (less grinding). So if a 10th level newb wanted to save up for some 7x HCP plate armor, it won't take him years to acquire it...But most of all I like it because it'll raise the prices of RL dollar for silvers in the short term, at least until item prices start catching up to their new post breakage values...and yes I'm greedy, so what?...By sheer coincidence the rich players in GS and Simu the company are allies, and thus the rich will continue to get richer while everyone else lags behind.

....unless you have no life and play like 10 hours a day.

Pure gold. Someone who stayed awake in Econ101.

[Khariz]

Figured I'd ressurect this thread since we are beating the dead horse AGAIN.

[Heshinar]

My thoughts on breakage and other efforts to make Gemstone more 'realistic'.

1. Why the fuck would you try to make a fantasy game involving mythical creatures, magic in all its forms, mythical creatures - undead - and other various lifeforms, and a whole pantheon of gods and goddesses realistic? ITS A GOD DAMN FANTASY GAME!!!


This is the true answer plain and simple.

There is no need for realism. I honestly think it is a bunch of whiners who play games like WoW, Evercrack and such who want instant gratification and have no concept of working years to get something they really want.

These are probably the same people who would have gotten the SubPrime Home Loans instead of working on their credit for a few years and improving their lives first before buying houses. Now they whine that they have to pay the piper.

[Methais]

This is the true answer plain and simple.

There is no need for realism. I honestly think it is a bunch of whiners who play games like WoW, Evercrack and such who want instant gratification and have no concept of working years to get something they really want.

I think it's more the fact that Simu hasn't released a truly awesome item in probably 8-10 years, and their "solution" that makes them able to introduce new awesome items is to break the old ones and remove them from the game. This is due to the fact that GS is run by a bunch of idiots.

I'd hardly call WoW instant gratification, especially from a raiding standpoint. Yeah it might takes months instead of years to get decked out in WoW (that's if you don't consider the fact that they keep releasing new content for advancement, whereas Simu doesn't) but life goes by too fast to spent 43278043 years "working" towards getting a line of text.

Not to mention if you're going to work for years to get something, it had better be something tangible. Not something that could be nerfed the next day because Warden woke up with a pipe up his asshole.

[Warriorbird]

Articulate and well thought out response to an idiot post. Thanks Methais. I'm impressed.

[Heshinar]

Good for you. Do you also think that if I earn 10 million dollars per year in real life my wealth should be re-distributed to the poor?

Hell NO!

Shit you probably donate a bunch of it to avoid paying a lot of taxes which means you are the one deciding what you do with the money.

[Heshinar]

Assuming all they want is another "silver sink", I'm fine with this implementation. As long as my items can never break, nor do they "degrade" over time and become less effective, I'm cool.

I'll drop 5k per hunt to keep my shit in perfect unbreakable condition, and if that's all they want, I'm game.

First if it is say only 5K a hunt it hurts the little guy more than the older guy.
Little Guy - say 200K in the bank. Then 5K is a lot but for the guy with 50million it is a drop in the bucket.

Second if they scale it based on level what is the scale that is proper? Totally new people with no friends or others in game are where the scale should start but is it fair for the upper levels to have to pay more.

Then again If I have Level 100 Capped Uber Warrior with a 10X weapon I just hand it off to my level 25 Warrior and then the cost is lower.

There are always ways around the system.

[Warriorbird]

So what're you after? Monty Haul where there's great items and no breakage? Or are you just railing internally against the idea that GS has been given up on?

[Khariz]

So what're you after? Monty Haul where there's great items and no breakage? Or are you just railing internally against the idea that GS has been given up on?

I ressurected this thread because we are talking about this shit yet AGAIN both here and on the officials. That dude "Josh" on the officials loves to point out how the implementation of breakage is still opening ended on Simu's end.

If they came out and officially stated that Breakage was no longer being considered, I'd love to bury this thread for good.

[Heshinar]

I would love Simu to actually state with certianty something.

Still I want a NON-EMOTIONAL-LIBERAL-SPREAD THE WEALTH-FACTUAL reason WHAT IS WRONG WITH RICH BEING RICH AND HAVING SILVERS?

Seriously. I have been around almost 10 years and yeah I do not play and merchant a lot so my highest level character is a level 29 Bard. I have accumulated about 10 million in items and silver in that time. So I am not the best hunter or best merchant I have fun. I do not need to see what little I have being risked in breakage because some socialist (someone started this thread as a political statement) thinking they need to take money away from the wealthy. Give me time and I will be wealthy too and I do not like the idea that I have to give it up because some whiny liberal thinking type determined that I don't deserve it.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. It's nothing I'd worry about. The company doesn't care enough. The sky isn't falling. Don't worry yourself Chicken Little.

[Khariz]

Eh. It's nothing I'd worry about. The company doesn't care enough. The sky isn't falling. Don't worry yourself Chicken Little.

Nobody is worried about it. You stumbled upon the mental vomiting of a bored law school student when I had nothing better to do in class last semester.

I don't actually think Simu has the care or balls to attempt to implement breakage at this point.

[Warriorbird]

Oh. Not you, Khariz. That was directed to Heshinar. I agree.

[Khariz]

Oh. Not you, Khariz. That was directed to Heshinar. I agree.

Oh yeah, he might be worried about it, hehe.

[Heshinar]

I agree with the Simu doesnt care enough to even be bothered.

Just having a little fun...