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Keller
08-22-2007, 04:54 PM
The hourly rates of the country's top lawyers are increasingly coming with something new -- a comma.

A few attorneys crossed into $1,000-per-hour billing before this year, but recent moves to the four-figure mark in New York, which sets trends for legal markets around the country, are seen as a significant turning point.
On Sept. 1, New York's Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP will raise its top rate to more than $1,000 from $950. Firm partner Barry Ostrager, a litigator, says he will be one of the firm's thousand-dollar billers, along with private-equity specialist Richard Beattie and antitrust lawyer Kevin Arquit. The top biller at New York's Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP hit $1,000 per hour earlier this year. At Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP, also of New York, bankruptcy attorney Brad Scheler, now at $995 per hour, will likely soon charge $1,000.

At large firms, billable rates have climbed steadily over the years, since 2000 rising an average of 6% to 7% annually, according to the law-firm group of Citi Private Bank, a unit of Citigroup (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=c) Inc. But for some time, the highest-billing partners at top big-city firms have hovered in the mid-to-high $900 range, hesitant to cross the four-figure threshold. "We have viewed $1,000 an hour as a possible vomit point for clients," says a partner at a New York firm. "Frankly, it's a little hard to think about anyone who doesn't save lives being worth this much money," says David Boies, one of the nation's best-known trial lawyers, at the Armonk, N.Y., office of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP.

A select group of attorneys began billing at that rate before this year, such as Stephen Susman, a founding partner of a Houston firm who has tried big-ticket cases around the country, and Benjamin Civiletti, a former U.S. Attorney General under President Carter and a senior partner at Washington, D.C-based Venable LLP. And in London, top attorneys bill at rates that, when converted, can hit almost $1,500 an hour.

As a critical mass develops around fees of $1,000 an hour in New York, though, more firms may feel comfortable going to that level and beyond. "One-thousand dollars per hour has symbolic significance," says Robert Rosenberg, a Latham & Watkins LLP partner who bills $925 an hour. "But like the year 2000, it's just a number."

Yet, many attorneys are still reluctant to charge $1,000 an hour. "There is a perception issue between $1,050 and $950," says Hugh Ray, a partner at Andrews Kurth LLP in Houston. "At some point, you look bad if you go too high." Mr. Boies says psychology in part has held him back from charging more than $880 per hour, noting, "When I started practicing law in 1966, my billing rate was considerably under $100."

Law firms also derive comfort from running with the pack. "We prefer not to be market leaders when it comes to rates," says J. Gregory Milmoe, a bankruptcy attorney at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP in New York. Mr. Milmoe says in September his hourly rate will climb to $950.
Firms' hesitation to breach the $1,000 mark shows that legal services aren't unlike other high-end products that sell at "just under" prices, like the $19,900 car, says Eric Anderson, a marketing professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. "The sellers are worried that they will be perceived as extremely expensive."

Some clients' reactions bear that out. Brackett Denniston III, the general counsel of General Electric (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=ge) Co., says the company has paid $1,000 per hour for "specialized" legal advice. Still, "that's a line we'd rather not see crossed," Mr. Denniston says. "A thousand dollars per hour is emblematic of the high cost of major law firms," he says. "More than rates, my greater concern is the overall inflation level" in legal costs.

Thomas Sager, assistant general counsel of DuPont (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=dd)Co., says he recently balked when a New York lawyer cited $1,000 as his hourly rate. Instead, Mr. Sager says, he agreed to pay the attorney a flat monthly fee. "One-thousand dollars may be someone's choke point, but mine is actually a lot lower," he says.

Still, some lawyers are confident they're worth $1,000 per hour, and that now's the time to break the barrier. "I haven't personally experienced resistance to my billing rates," Mr. Ostrager says. "The legal marketplace is very sophisticated."

Law firms say the boosts aren't just about lining partners' pockets. They're partly a response to booming costs, which in recent years have included skyrocketing associate salaries -- first-year lawyers in many firms make $160,000 a year -- and expenses associated with geographic expansion.

While it's hard to raise prices on standard legal work, for matters such as bet-the-company deals, intricate patent disputes, huge bankruptcies or complex antitrust litigation, firms often feel they can raise fees for name-brand partners without upsetting clients.

Indeed, clients are often most cost-conscious about junior attorneys, believing they provide less value-per-dollar than senior counsel. Considering a major-league baseball player can make the equivalent of $15,000 per hour, "$1,000 for very seasoned lawyers who can solve complex problems doesn't seem to be inappropriate," says Mike Dillon, the general counsel of Sun Microsystems (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=sunw) Inc.

Hourly rates, of course, tell just part of the fee story. Firms occasionally discount their stated rates for top clients. And companies sometimes prefer to pay their lawyers a flat fee for each case or deal, believing it encourages more efficiency than billing by the hour.

Plaintiffs trial lawyers often bill on a contingency-fee basis, earning a share of a settlement or verdict -- an amount that can dwarf top rates. "It represents an opportunity cost when I am working by the hour," says Mr. Susman, who last year raised his hourly fee to $1,100. He did it in part, he says, "to discourage anyone hiring me on that basis."

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I love capitalism.

CrystalTears
08-22-2007, 04:55 PM
Yeah I figured this would give you and the rest of the lawyer population of this board some woodage.

Keller
08-22-2007, 05:04 PM
Yeah I figured this would give you and the rest of the lawyer population of this board some woodage.

I bill at only $550. But that's only going to increase.

As a side note ... assuming I bill 2100 my first year, that's over a million dollars in revenue for the firm. Of that, they pay me $160,000 plus a bonus of maybe 15-20k. I don't see how this even remotely justifies raising the top tier billing rates.

Sean of the Thread
08-22-2007, 05:07 PM
Sooner or later this house of cards is gonna come crashing down.

Keller
08-22-2007, 05:11 PM
Sooner or later this house of cards is gonna come crashing down.

Currently firms can't find enough attorneys for the work they have.

Until that changes, demand > supply.

Drew
08-22-2007, 05:14 PM
How much does a top lawyer who bills $1000 an hour keep?

Sean of the Thread
08-22-2007, 05:24 PM
How much does a top lawyer who bills $1000 an hour keep?

Not much if you go according to the Dept of Labor.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 05:27 PM
Well, that'd be a senior partner. Partners split the net proceeds of the firm after all expenses, and other peripheral costs. Senior partners maybe have a larger percentage.

I hear, on average, a partner in NYC makes 2 million a year.

But even when you think about that, senior partners who bill at 1,000 an hour, if they put in 2k hours a year, which they should be able to get, they make 2,000,000 for the firms just from their own work.

Sean
08-22-2007, 05:29 PM
How many lawyers only put in 40 hours a week?

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 05:29 PM
And Sean's stats include all us public interest people. To give you a hint, the Manhattan DA's office is the highest paying in the nation, I'm sure, and the ADAs there start at 55k a year. If you're in management (which is 10-15 years in) you can be expected to clear some 115k or so.

-TheE-

Keller
08-22-2007, 05:29 PM
How much does a top lawyer who bills $1000 an hour keep?

It totally depends on the firm.

Law firms are generally operated as partnerships. Associates earn salaries while partners buy an equity stake in the partnership. The equity stake provides a partnership interest. The partners receive distributions with respect to their partnership interest.

I don't know a whole lot about the specifics, although I could probably guess with about 85% accuracy based on my knowledge of limited partnership agreements. Suffice to say that law firms are judged on their profit per partner (PPP) and I'd guess any firm with a superstar capable of $1000/hr billing is in the $2M+ PPP range. Of course there can be all sorts of funky allocation mechanisms to allow lucrative partners a higher distribution.

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 05:30 PM
2000 billable hours, Sean, not 2000 work hours. You can't bill every hour of the day.

Sean
08-22-2007, 05:31 PM
Pfft us engineer types do!

Sean of the Thread
08-22-2007, 05:33 PM
How many lawyers only put in 40 hours a week?


Legitimately? Probably very few. Most probably put in much less. :)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/billing.gif

Stanley Burrell
08-22-2007, 05:40 PM
No disrespect, but by the time any of the lawyer posters reach the comma status, I truly feel that


Sooner or later this house of cards is gonna come crashing down.

Will have occurred.

And I'm not trying to bode this in a bad way at all: Merely, I am concerned with how wrapped up in politics and paperwork corporate America has become. We will not be an exceeding nation if our pride lies in the ability to decipher a modern day Hammurabi's code. America, macro-economically, doesn't understand this for now and/or is reluctant to place its priorities otherwise, hence the strange and recent ups and downs in certain professions. There have been a lot of strange fluctuations in paychecks since Bush and Co. "economized."

If there isn't a rebound from this in 4-6 years from now, I'll most likely be working out of Singapore, I reckon.

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 05:42 PM
Oh, the house has fallen, alright. (http://www.amazon.com/Failure-Corporate-Law-Fundamental-Possibilities/dp/0226306933/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8527322-0296919?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187818921&sr=8-1)

Parkbandit
08-22-2007, 06:33 PM
Lawyers are just a half notch above a politician in my book.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/SatanLawyer.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/LawyerDivorce.jpg

Hulkein
08-22-2007, 07:16 PM
Keller, what city do you work in? LA?

E, that quote from Reagan's diary is hysterical. Is that serious?

Drew
08-22-2007, 07:26 PM
Reagan was a funny guy.

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 07:27 PM
Yup, they just published Reagan's diaries. Seems the old man was a bit sharper than we thought in '86.

-TheE-

Mistomeer
08-22-2007, 07:42 PM
Pfft us engineer types do!

Heh, and charge more too. I once billed a client $500 for a ten minute phone call. I've also had clients pay $3000/hour.

Keller
08-22-2007, 09:37 PM
Keller, what city do you work in? LA?

E, that quote from Reagan's diary is hysterical. Is that serious?

I am most likely going to accept a job in NYC / DC. I can work out of either office, so I've not decided where I want to live yet.

TheEschaton
08-22-2007, 09:53 PM
NYC, and in a few years, we'll party like there ain't no tomorrow.

Sean of the Thread
08-22-2007, 09:57 PM
You can even share hotel beds.

Hulkein
08-22-2007, 10:00 PM
I am most likely going to accept a job in NYC / DC. I can work out of either office, so I've not decided where I want to live yet.

Come on, you have to choose NYC over DC. Not even comparable in my opinion. Young and loaded? I wouldn't want to live anywhere else besides Manhattan.

Sean of the Thread
08-22-2007, 10:09 PM
DC sucks donkey dicks.

Hulkein
08-22-2007, 10:12 PM
Yeah I agree.

Gan
08-22-2007, 10:35 PM
www.legalzoom.com

Stanley Burrell
08-22-2007, 11:45 PM
www.legalzoom.com

There've been times where I've told people I'm a councilman (I'm not) and that a lawsuit'd be dropped on whoever's, so-and-so's and that guy/girl's desk. And it always had something to do with tech support from India.

Skeeter
08-23-2007, 12:04 AM
do you ever make sense?

Landrion
08-23-2007, 08:18 AM
do you ever make sense?

You still read his stuff? I gave up trying to decipher him months ago.

Stanley Burrell
08-23-2007, 09:55 AM
do you ever make sense?

If I say no, will you hook me up with your wifey?

That girl in your avatar'd be just dandy as well ('specially if she's your sister) :D

Parkbandit
08-23-2007, 10:32 AM
do you ever make sense?

Stanley should be the "Don't do drugs, or your brain will become a completely useless ball of decaying flesh" poster boy. I find that it's far more productive to simply skip over his posts, rather than trying to make any sense of them.

He should be simply seen as a lesson to the kids out there. I always say to my kids, "Don't do drugs, or you'll end up being as stupid as Stanley"

Sean of the Thread
08-23-2007, 10:53 AM
It's a safe bet that most have been skipping over his posts for at least a year. I know I can't be alone in that dept.

Clove
08-23-2007, 11:17 AM
It's a safe bet that most have been skipping over his posts for at least a year. I know I can't be alone in that dept.

Heaven help me I'm going to agree with Sean2 again.

As for lawyers... nationalize legal services and let them bill as much as they can. It should also be pointed out that lawyers are not only in demand, but they are providing services that save their clients more than the pots-of-gold they're being paid (or their clients wouldn't be paying them).

I don't hate lawyers. I hate dentists. I love lawyers, because lawyers help me sue the dentists.

CrystalTears
08-23-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't hate lawyers. I hate dentists. I love lawyers, because lawyers help me sue the dentists.
FTMFW!

Clove
08-23-2007, 11:38 AM
FTMFW!

Oh that's right. CT hates dentists too....

Mistomeer
08-23-2007, 11:41 AM
Stanley should be the "life time forum bans should be upheld" poster boy.

Fixed it for you.

Gan
08-23-2007, 01:18 PM
x3 on the dentists h8.

I still have one dentist that my 'do not brake while driving' policy is in effect for if I see him crossing the street in front of me.

Skeeter
08-23-2007, 01:46 PM
It's a safe bet that most have been skipping over his posts for at least a year. I know I can't be alone in that dept.

I usually just skip them as well, but it was late and I was bored.

DeV
08-23-2007, 02:07 PM
The practice of lawyering isn't going away anytime soon. Every lawyer has another profession to fall back on so it would definitely not make their skills and knowledge obselete if that were to happen, which it won't. Not by a longshot.

Gan
08-23-2007, 02:14 PM
The practice of lawyering isn't going away anytime soon. Every lawyer has another profession to fall back on so it would definitely not make their skills and knowledge obselete if that were to happen, which it won't. Not by a longshot.

With the natural increase of laws and legislation there will always be a need for more lawyers. Especially since most laws/legislation are created by lawyers.

;)

Keller
08-23-2007, 02:21 PM
With the natural increase of laws and legislation there will always be a need for more lawyers. Especially since most laws/legislation are created by lawyers.

;)

The crazy thing about laws is that, unless you outlaw critical thinking, they're only going to get more and more complex.

Gov't lawyers think of how to most efficiently codify intentions.

Private lawyers assault the laws the gov't makes.

It's a cycle that only leads to more and more specificity.

Warriorbird
08-23-2007, 04:09 PM
Yep. One of my profs rants about how beautiful the old Louisiana code was before all the students that have gone to my school messed it up.

Stanley Burrell
08-23-2007, 04:19 PM
The practice of lawyering isn't going away anytime soon. Every lawyer has another profession to fall back on so it would definitely not make their skills and knowledge obselete if that were to happen, which it won't. Not by a longshot.

I've known several patent lawyers who have the social skills of a hard boiled egg and would be otherwise fucked if their job description required them to sway a witness stand.

Ventriloquist would be a lucrative fallback option if you want to start looking at law beyond what you usually see on SVU, imho.

Khariz
08-23-2007, 05:31 PM
Yeah I figured this would give you and the rest of the lawyer population of this board some woodage.

Gave me some wood.

DeV
08-23-2007, 05:34 PM
I've known several patent lawyers who have the social skills of a hard boiled egg and would be otherwise fucked if their job description required them to sway a witness stand.What you've described is an affliction that does not discriminate when it comes to job description.