Is race a factor in the Vick case? Is dog fighting a cultural thing?

[grapedog]

I know the answers for me...but I'm curious as to others opinions.

Recently the media has been dealing with people calling this a race issue. Is it for you? I know for me, it's more a killing dogs, fighting dogs, it's illegal and it's sadistic thing. The fact that I'm a football and fan, and am sick of having the "greatness" of Vick shoved down my throat when he's not very good isn't helping either, but thats a separate issue.

Secondly, is dog fighting a cultural thing...is it a "black thing"? That I don't know...I can't say I follow very many dog fighting cases, but of the few I can remember, most were involving black people. Is cock-fighting a hispanic thing...I know it's much more popular in places like Texas and Arizona. Or is dog fighting an Urban thing...not black or white, but a particular class of people, and the same with cock-fighting?

I hate to see the media veer off the fact that Vick allegedly, along with accomplices...fought, tortured and killed dogs, not to mention gambling...and what else might he have gambled on....but it gets turned into a black/white race issue instead of what it really is.

[Alfster]

I hope it's not a race issue. I honestly haven't thought of dogfighting as a racial thing.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Grapedog
The fact that I'm a football

1st off I'd like to applaud your ability to type without any fingers ;) Honestly I think it's more of a regional/cultural thing. From what I can gather people who live more in towards the south have a more intimate knowledge of dog fighting than for example those of us in the northeast.

[Stanley Burrell]

A dog is a dog is a dog.

And a dog is also one of the very few animals that can muster up loyalty in one of its most purest forms and unconditionally love their human companions. To see what Vick at least financed with regard to this degree of animal torture is sickening enough. And I'm sure Vick will enter some form of plea where he was "unaware" of the caliber of how the dogs were being treated (and probably claim that he thought the Westminster show was happening in his house, or something to that degree.)

Bull/cock/etc./and even fish fighting, for the sake of toying pathetically with a living creature until it has no emotion left but anger, and physical state of starvation, is really dastardly and disgusting.

And dogfighting happens all around the U.S.: I just hope this media blitz has sent a race-free message to any parties that would treat animals with such a sickening manner of psychopathy, although I doubt it'll stop it that much, if at all.

Onto racial animal fighting -- I definitely think that the human torturing animals, on a more worldwide, grander, and more accepted scope, such as bullfighting, has very little to do with race, and, myself personally having %50 come from an Argentine background (they think they're Spaniards) has much more to do with said background and culture:

I.e. "I'm albino (caucasoid) and therefore dogfighting is O.K. in my book" or "I'm racially Indochinese and think animal fighting is barbaric savagery" or "I exhibit all the phenotypical characteristics of an Easter Islander and only approve of the massive duels of the local gigantic face-carved stones" doesn't make much sense.

[Jessaril]

I think the thought that is has anything to do with race is a matter of perspective, and the media coverage of it. If you watch any of the forum type interview coverage where you have a few people debating the issue you're bound to see the pasty white chick from pita, the old white guy from the ASPCA and an African American guy defending Vick (not DOGFIGHTING but VICK specifically). You know there are people sitting at home that are a lot less culturally versed saying to themselves, "Ah, there's another black guy that likes dogfighting...". We do a lot in this country to promote understanding and "fairness", but we do very little to alter perception on issues like these. The other thing I noticed on a few of the news stations was when they showed video/photos of people out supporting Vick at rallys and such, they were all of African Americans. However, if you look closely you can clearly see pretty much every demographic and race is present, the media, for whatever reason, chooses not to present it that way.

The NAACP getting involved even with their moderately safe "hold judgment..." statement doesn't help the matter. The NAACP should have absolutely NO involvement in this issue unless they're on the side of the dogs allegedly murdered by the defendants.

Either way, Vick is screwed simply because it's a conspiracy charge. He put the first nail in his coffin when he said he had no involvement what so ever with dogfighting. All they have to prove is he had even the slightest involvement to get a guilty verdict. Not to mention asking for a bench trial was insane with the judge presiding over the case (Henry Hudson).

[SpunGirl]

Personally, I'm disgusted that the NAACP felt the need to step in and specifically ask people not to "judge Vick" before all the facts of the case have been presented in court. While it's a fair enough request, this just rankles on me as playing the race card (and I can't see how race has anything to do with it).

-K

[Ilvane]

They made a statement on TV the other day. If this was Brett Farve, what would the reaction be? The same? Or would they say..hmm, lets think about this first.

It was a valid question, though I still think Vick, if involved in this to the extent he seems he is, should be thrown in jail for a long while.

Angela

[SpunGirl]

I remember when his brother got in trouble with the law, lots of sportscasters where going on and on and on about how great Vick is yada yada.

Make's his brother's weed offenses look pretty stupid by comparison now, doesn't it?

-K

[Jessaril]

You guys may not know this, but Vick was actually lucky in one regard. If they had started the investigation a few weeks later the new Dogfighting prohibition laws would be in effect and all of those transporting charges would be felonies.

[DeV]

No, it's not a black thing. This is probably the second time I have heard of a black person dog fighting, but I'd have to be naive to believe that it's only prevalent among young black males. I used to think it was more of a "Bubba" thing to be honest. Bubbas will fight anything; dogs, roosters, pick up trucks, the wife and kids, crows, fleas, each other, etc.

I believe it's more of a cultural thing than anything and accepted to the point where the seriousness of the activity is ignored in the areas where it's most easily recognizable; rural and low economic urban areas where blacks, whites, and browns participate.

As a whole, dog fighting crosses all racial lines and all socio-economic levels as well. It takes place in every state accross the country and for the most part people will try to blame it on one thing to detract from the fact that this horrific "sport" is more widespread than society wants to admit and is happening in our very own collective backyards, so to speak.

[Sean]

Marcus Vicks issues go well beyond weed and extend to brandishing a gun in a McD's parking lot and pointing it at people and sexual misconduct with a minor (allegedly).

[Celephais]

I was looking for a screenshot from Snatch where those white british folks are dogfighting, but I came across this photo instead and figured... good enough.

http://photos.almosthuman.net/albums/userpics/10001/fat_dog.jpg

[CrystalTears]

It's not a racial thing. It's a dumbasshattery thing.

[Sean of the Thread]

Deion Sanders and Michael Irvin are really starting to look like bigger fucking idiots supporting him imo. Virtually all callers to the sports radio has been negative Vick and race hasn't been an issue.

[Jessaril]

Sounds like Deion might be in trouble with the NFL network over some of the things he has said in support of Vick.

[SpunGirl]

He should be. Personally, I'm glad that teams have shown an intolerance for the antics of these idiot players.... Adam Jones being suspended for an entire season was awesome.

I didnt realize Marcus Vick had other issues besides weed and DUI... sounds like a nice family.

Also, some of the protesters in this issue are annoying me. I saw a picture of them protesting outside the Faclons' training camp. WTF? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Falcons want to take harsher measures than just telling him not to come to training camp, and the NFL commissioner turned that down? They should be protesting at HIS office, if anywhere.

I'm glad that Nike dropped him, though.

-K

[Skeeter]

The most dominate card in the deck.


http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Race_Card.jpg

[Nieninque]

Using race as an excuse to justify dog fighting is an insult to law abiding and non-abusive Black people.

If I were Black, I would be pretty fucked off that someone was saying that this bastard was doing what he was doing because he was Black.

Fuck that.

[Skeeter]

I don't think they're justifying dog fighting because Vick is black. I think the argument is that there wouldn't be as much uproar about if Vick WASN'T black.

[grapedog]

I don't think they're justifying dog fighting because Vick is black. I think the argument is that there wouldn't be as much uproar about if Vick WASN'T black.

This is man's best friend we're talking about here...like someone said earlier...And a dog is also one of the very few animals that can muster up loyalty in one of its most purest forms and unconditionally love their human companions....

I think if Vick wasn't black, it would still be just as large an issue...i would still be just as pissed.

[SpunGirl]

I think society tends to pre-emptively prepare for celebrities to get off the hook because of their celebrity status, hence the rather huge backlash against Vick, Paris Hilton, etc. People don't want to see the issue forgotten or shoved under the rug.

Also, an issue like animal cruelty is one with very little argument. What was done to these animals is really despicable, and you'll precious few people who believe otherwise - and even fewer than THAT who would be willing to say so in public.

-K

[Skeeter]

This is man's best friend we're talking about here...like someone said earlier...And a dog is also one of the very few animals that can muster up loyalty in one of its most purest forms and unconditionally love their human companions....

I think if Vick wasn't black, it would still be just as large an issue...i would still be just as pissed.


It's not like dog fighting is new. Why weren't you pissed before?

[grapedog]

It's not like dog fighting is new. Why weren't you pissed before?

I've always been pissed...nothing has changed about that. I'll continue to do what I always have done, adopt my pets from the SPCA, donate to the SPCA and Humane Society, combat abuse where it happens and actively promote others to do the same. The dog behind me snoring comfortably in my old recliner, and the other dog in the spare bedroom with her head hanging off the bed are both adoptions from the SPCA as were my last 2 dogs.

I already have two dogs, and my girlfriend and I are trying to decide it we want to try fostering more, maybe 1 a month or something...until they can find homes of their own.

I personally think PETA is a horrible organization and should be shut down for good, but in this instance, they are actually useful.

[Jessaril]

It's not like dog fighting is new. Why weren't you pissed before?

I don't know about them, but I was pissed before. I still think dog fighting penalties aren't nearly as harsh as they should be. I've seen countless pitbulls get put down because even some organizations won't take the resposibility to adopt them out. It is a prevalent problem in society though, The local Humane society here has a question on the application "What will this dog be used for?" One of the available answers is fighting, honestly. We joked with her about it and she, as serious as a heart attack told us that it commonly gets checked by people. Makes me wonder if there are that many stupid people out there looking for dogs to fight, how many there really are.

The other thing to consider is this:

What type of person does it take to do this to another living being. How sick do you have to be to electrocute or slam an animals head into the pavement until it dies. To me that is the worst part about this entire situation, dog fighting aside that is the part that really bothers me. People capable of that shouldn't be allowed out of prison -- ever. Do people really think it's a stretch that people capable of that aren't equally capable of looking at people with the same disregard?

Not saying Vick or is friends would ever murder a person, but there were probably people that said the same thing about Jeffery Dahmer when he was just cutting up birds.

[grapedog]

Well, as some have said publicly...it's all about how a person looks at animals. Some see them as property, while mine are a part of my family. Regardless, it's still illegal as is gambling, and I hope they actually get sent away for a long time. Too often on Animal Cops do you see these people getting a slap on the wrist for animal cruelty.

I never liked the kids I grew up with that enjoyed blowing up frogs and killing squirrels with wrist rockets. They were slightly off when I grew up, and running into them when they were older...they were still slightly off...if not more so.

[Gan]

The most dominate card in the deck.


http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Race_Card.jpg

LOL

This needs to be saved for future reference.

KEYWORD SEARCH: RACECARD

And, no I dont think its a racial thang. I know plenty of backwoods white folks who fight dogs... and mexicans. See: Cockfighting (non-sexual).

[Jessaril]

Well, as some have said publicly...it's all about how a person looks at animals. Some see them as property, while mine are a part of my family. Regardless, it's still illegal as is gambling, and I hope they actually get sent away for a long time. Too often on Animal Cops do you see these people getting a slap on the wrist for animal cruelty.

I never liked the kids I grew up with that enjoyed blowing up frogs and killing squirrels with wrist rockets. They were slightly off when I grew up, and running into them when they were older...they were still slightly off...if not more so.

See, that's another part of the problem. Animals aren't considered property by the courts. You can't sue someone if they kill your $10,000 poodle, but unlike humans, they have weak laws protecting them. The courts already look at animals as living beings that have rights vs. property, but they're unwilling to go the extra step and increase penalties to a point where they're preventative to any large extent.

[Sean]

It's hard to take PETA members seriously on this issue after their employees got caught killing what? like 100? pets and chucking them in dumpsters.

[SpunGirl]

Excellent post, Grapedog. SPCA for the WIN. Lucy (the dog the PC helped name!) was an SPCA adoption, and all of my cats have been adopted from non-profit, no-kill rescues.

Adopt animals from shelters. Please!!!!!

-K

[Parkbandit]

Sounds like Deion might be in trouble with the NFL network over some of the things he has said in support of Vick.


Good.. he sucks as an announcer.

And why is it that whenever a black person gets caught being a scumbag.. that we must hate him because he's black and not because he's a scumbag? What's the next excuse? He did it because his great, great, great, great grandfather was a slave and it's the white man's fault?

Give me a break.

[grapedog]

Good.. he sucks as an announcer.

And why is it that whenever a black person gets caught being a scumbag.. that we must hate him because he's black and not because he's a scumbag? What's the next excuse? He did it because his great, great, great, great grandfather was a slave and it's the white man's fault?

Give me a break.

Oh...don't even get me started on slave reparations...


Excellent post, Grapedog. SPCA for the WIN. Lucy (the dog the PC helped name!) was an SPCA adoption, and all of my cats have been adopted from non-profit, no-kill rescues.

Adopt animals from shelters. Please!!!!!

-K

Yeah, the last place I adopted from is a no-kill shelter, a little expensive, but all the proceeds went to the shelter, so thats ok by me....though my last dogs before these two, were from kill(after a certain period of non-adoption) shelters. I hate to see animals killed like that, but how can you possibly serve all the animals that need proper homes...it's an impossible task. I think in general, shelters do what they can. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the people behind puppy mills put behind bars either...they just as much to blame for a lot of animal abuse and shelters being full.

[DeV]

And why is it that whenever a black person gets caught being a scumbag.. that we must hate him because he's black and not because he's a scumbag? It's whenever a famous black person gets caught being a scumbag it's because he's black. Get it right.

Michael Vick is not being talked about because he's black, it's because he's a NFL quarterback. If he was some regular Joe Black Guy he'd be treated as such and race would make no difference, in fact, no one would give a damn about his fate except for those that know him personally and those who wish to seek justice. And it's usually not always about race, even by those playing the race card, but more so about money and its influence.

[Sean]

Seriously. No one seems to care really that Vicks codefendent flipped and plead guilty to charges the news is really just that he'll testify against Vick. From douche bag to hero in seconds.

[Methais]

I know the answers for me...but I'm curious as to others opinions.

Recently the media has been dealing with people calling this a race issue. Is it for you? I know for me, it's more a killing dogs, fighting dogs, it's illegal and it's sadistic thing. The fact that I'm a football and fan, and am sick of having the "greatness" of Vick shoved down my throat when he's not very good isn't helping either, but thats a separate issue.

Secondly, is dog fighting a cultural thing...is it a "black thing"? That I don't know...I can't say I follow very many dog fighting cases, but of the few I can remember, most were involving black people. Is cock-fighting a hispanic thing...I know it's much more popular in places like Texas and Arizona. Or is dog fighting an Urban thing...not black or white, but a particular class of people, and the same with cock-fighting?

I hate to see the media veer off the fact that Vick allegedly, along with accomplices...fought, tortured and killed dogs, not to mention gambling...and what else might he have gambled on....but it gets turned into a black/white race issue instead of what it really is.

Every criminal case against a black guy is automatically a race issue.

On an unrelated note, cock fighting is legal in Louisiana for some reason.

[Sean of the Thread]

On an unrelated note, cock fighting is legal in Louisiana for some reason.

Actually it was just banned. The gave them a year or something to sel their equipment and assets before it's completely banned.

[Methais]

Nice.

[Parkbandit]

It's whenever a famous black person gets caught being a scumbag it's because he's black. Get it right.



Incorrect. In my 20+ years in Management, it was the standard practice when you were giving a minority employee a coach/council session.. the race came up more times than it didn't. And if I terminated a minority, I was expecting to get a call later on that day from the Labor Board.

I had probably 10 cases investigated, 4 that went to the next level and 0 that ended up with the minority winning.

I never disliked an employee because of their skin color.. I've disliked employees who are lazy fucks, thiefs, scumbags and over all useless pieces of shit.

[DeV]

Incorrect. In my 20+ years in Management, it was the standard practice when you were giving a minority employee a coach/council session.. the race came up more times than it didn't. Wow, that's pretty crazy. In your 20+ years in management no white employees you fired ever made a call to the labor board and/or complained after their employment was terminated? What kind of issues relating to race did they bring up when you were coaching/counseling said employees? And roughly what percentage of minorities did you fire as opposed to non-minorities during your many years working in management.

If I remember correctly you work in Hotel management right? I ask because I'm assuming in this line of work, especially the jobs related to the hospitality industry, you naturally employ more minorities than any other ethnic group. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think that had anything to do with the disproportionate numbers of those who'd bring race into the picture as opposed to those minorities who didn't?

[Parkbandit]

Wow, that's pretty crazy. In your 20+ years in management no white employees you fired ever made a call to the labor board and/or complained after their employment was terminated? What kind of issues relating to race did they bring up when you were coaching/counseling said employees? And roughly what percentage of minorities did you fire as opposed to non-minorities during your many years working in management.

If I remember correctly you work in Hotel management right? I ask because I'm assuming in this line of work, especially the jobs related to the hospitality industry, you naturally employ more minorities than any other ethnic group. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think that had anything to do with the disparaging numbers of those who'd bring race into the picture as opposed to those minorities who didn't?

I never had a call from anyone regarding a termination of a white person... and I imagine in my employement history I terminated more whites than minorities.

I wouldn't say we employed more minorities than whites either. In Richmond, that's true.. but let's be honest, whites are the minority there. I think the mix was 1:6 there. In CT, it was just the opposite. In Florida, I would say it's 50/50. In Binghamton NY, I think we were like 9:1.

So, if I had to average out 20 years.. I would say it's 50/50 or damn close.

[TheEschaton]

Ah yes, PB has pulled out the anecdotal evidence, so it must be true.

As to Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders, I can't believe the former was just elected to the Hall of Fame, and that the latter is allowed to speak on national TV (which also applies to the former, as well, I suppose).

And if Brett Favre did this, I'd want him rotting in prison too. Hell, I thought he shoulda been suspended for his pill popping thing, which I found a little suspicious that no one cared that he basically admitted an addiction and had no ramifications for it.

-TheE-

[DeV]

Ah yes, PB has pulled out the anecdotal evidence, so it must be true.

-TheE-That's exactly how I view it and nothing more.