Rank 1 Crit - How did that work?

[Gnomad]

I got hit for 10 damage to the hand and got a minor, in an augmented breastplate.


A bog spectre claws at you!
AS: +265 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +85 = +199
... and hits for 10 points of damage!
Broken finger on your left hand!

Did something change that I'm not aware of? Shouldn't the crit divisor for plate be 11? How did I get a rank 1 crit?

edit:

Happened again on the back:

A warrior shade swings a twisted modwir-shafted halberd at you!
AS: +283 vs DS: +159 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +26 = +176
... and hits for 10 points of damage!
Weak slash to your lower back!

Very odd. As far as I know my plate isn't damage padded. Is this redux-related?

[Khariz]

hmm nm hand...I can't read, one second.

[Bobmuhthol]

Used to happen to me all the time, and I think I got the answer that the plate crit divisor is actually less than 11.

[Khariz]

ASk in the warrior section on the officials. Anathemus will probably come up with a feasible theory.

[Bobmuhthol]

He posts here as Latrinsorm.

[Latrinsorm]

The plate crit divisor is 11, unless you have redux. Now, there are kind of two ways of explaining this, but they're basically the same.

1) As your redux factor (RF) gets higher, your crit divisor (in all armor groups, not just plate) will become depressed. I never got an exact numerical bead on this, but roughly the Crit Divisor Depression Factor (CDDF) is RF/3. As you've noticed, CDDF is not a good thing to have, but you're still (much) better off with redux than without. For instance, the halberd hit would have been the same crit rank but 18 damage, and your crit rank 1 threshold is a good 20 endroll points higher.

2) The second way should be credited to Mark from the officials (SPYRIDONM). His general redux theory is considerably more complicated (and a bit more accurate), but the parts relating to this are as follows:
Each character actually has two redux factors: RF1 and RF2. Instead of depression, the crit divisor is inflated by either RF1/3 or RF2/3, I can't really remember. Now, though the crit divisor is inflated, it is applied to unreduced raw damage instead of reduced raw damage.

The end result is basically the same: you get crits when you wouldn't expect them. I don't fully understand his version, but in the interests of full disclosure I brought it up.

[Khariz]

Well I'll be damned. I guess I jus never knew you were that dude from the officials, Latrin. Sometimes I post over there to bait you into giving out correct info. when people are being retardedly ignorant.

I'll just straight up ask my questions over here from now on. Haha!

[Latrinsorm]

It's much more likely that I'll see stuff here, especially because folks can always PM me if I don't happen to see the topic. I don't know why, but the officials seem to have significantly more people posting misinformation than here.

[Gnomad]

It's much more likely that I'll see stuff here, especially because folks can always PM me if I don't happen to see the topic. I don't know why, but the officials seem to have significantly more people posting misinformation than here.Yeah, I posted it here specifically expecting a response from you; I figured I might as well make it public than just PM-ing you the question. Cool. I figured it was a balance issue like that to keep people with good redux from ever getting (serious) wounds.

Also,

The plate crit divisor is 11, unless you have redux.I realize your point, but it just made me wonder: how many people out there are trained for plate that don't have redux?

[Bobmuhthol]

Any paladin that has 160 armor ranks and 2x spells.

[StrayRogue]

Or ranger/bard.

[Silvanostar]

not too many rangers or bards train for full plate though

[Gnomad]

I meant to type pre-cap in there.

Is there an online damage calculator handy, or do you Redux folks do it all by hand?

[Bobmuhthol]

It's very possible for a pre-cap paladin to have 160 armor ranks and 2x spells.

I wrote a VBasic calculator for redux but God knows it's not accurate anymore. Xygon had a similar concept on his website; hopefully it's still there.

[Khariz]

It's very possible for a pre-cap paladin to have 160 armor ranks and 2x spells.

I wrote a VBasic calculator for redux but God knows it's not accurate anymore. Xygon had a similar concept on his website; hopefully it's still there.

It's still there, but it's not accurate either. It still calculates damage factor reduction, not damage reduction.

[Gnomad]

It's very possible for a pre-cap paladin to have 160 armor ranks and 2x spells.

I wrote a VBasic calculator for redux but God knows it's not accurate anymore. Xygon had a similar concept on his website; hopefully it's still there.http://www.xygon.net/redux.html

I'm sure the redux formula isn't current, but at least it'll tell me the damage I should have gotten. Thanks.

There's no DF list for natural critter weapons, is there?

[Bobmuhthol]

Natural weapons or natural attacks? There used to be a list of DFs for things like bite and ensnare (or whatever that one attack was that almost always stunned but had really really low damage).

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, I posted it here specifically expecting a response from youGlad I could help! :)

Creature weapons and creatures themselves can have damage weighting, which makes redux testing with them very hinky.

There is a list of natural attack DFs (bite, claw, pound, etc.) that's made the rounds. Unfortunately, the site I used to reference (sildraug) is no longer active. I'm also pretty sure that there are multiple bite (for instance) DFs, which makes me not try very hard to work with natural DFs (except for ensnare because of how interesting the crit tables are).

Xygon used to also have a calculator on his page that worked for damage reduction, but I can't google-ninja it for the life of me. I have a spreadsheet I use that gives me ranges which I then stare at for awhile: I've never been a fan of the averaging idea. My recommendation is to learn how to do it by hand (so to speak) because that way the next time something changes you'll be able to catch it (and knowledge is power!!!!!!).

[Riltus]

A warrior shade swings a twisted modwir-shafted halberd at you!
AS: +283 vs DS: +159 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +26 = +176
... and hits for 10 points of damage!
Weak slash to your lower back!

You don't use the hits for damage to determine the crit divisor. You need to first calculate the raw damage, which in this case is success margin * weapon damage factor. The 'hits for X points of damage' total is the sum of both raw and crit damage.

For a character with redux this total is the sum of both reduced raw damage and reduced crit damage. Some characters with enough redux will see the 'hits for X points of damage' as low as 7 and still have a rank 1 crit.

Success margin is 76 (endroll - 100)
Weapon damage factor is .20 for the halberd vs plate

76 * .20 = 15.2 unreduced raw damage

It is this value (15.2) that determines whether or not there is a crit. For a char without redux this value needs to (minimally) equal or exceed 10.5 for a crit to occur in plate armor. For a character with redux this value must be at least 10.5 AFTER the damage is reduced by a secondary redux factor. It is obvious from the results that you do not have enough redux to reduce this 15.2 raw damage to less than 10.5. Therefore, a rank 1 crit.

If the character had no redux the 'hits for X points of damage' would be the total of both the raw damage and crit damage. In the example above, this would be 15.2 raw damage + 3 crit damage for a total of 18 damage.

Since there is no damage padding, this hit shows that there is enough redux to reduce this hit from 18.2 to a value of 9.5 to 10.4 which rounds to 10.

From this you can then determine that the redux factor is approximately .45 or 45%. ((1 - (10/18.2).

But, if the redux factor is approximately .45 shouldn't the raw damage of 15.2 be reduced to less than 10.5? The short answer is no, since not all of the redux factor is applied to determine the crit divisor. The amount of redux that is used to determine the crit divisor is approximately 2/3 rds of the redux factor.

Now we have 2/3 * .45 = .30 secondary redux factor

This is the value that now needs to be used to calculate whether or not a crit will occur. If the result is greater than 10.5 a crit will occur; if less than 10.5 there will be no crit.

The original raw damage was 15.2 so we now have:

15.2 * (1 - .30) = 10.64 reduced damage which is just enough to cause a rank 1 crit. This second redux factor of .30 is always a fixed value and is always used to determine the crit divisor and certain amounts of very low level damage hits.

You can also use this second RF to determine the new inflated crit divisor ((10.5 / (1 - .30) = 15 raw damage. You will only see a rank 1 crit when the raw damage is at least 15. This is now your character's rank 1 plate crit divisor.

It is a simple matter to use this generic formula to determine any Rank X crit divisor for this character. I.e., rank 3 crit divisor is ((32.5/ (1 - .30) which equals 46 raw damage. You will only receive a rank 3 crit if the raw damage is 46 or greater.

So, there are two distinct redux factors. For this character the more common one is the .45 value and the secondary redux factor is .30. Each have their own specific uses in determining total damage reduction and crit divisors.

Riltus

[Riltus]

In order to convert the Xygon results into the new redux model (total damage reduction), you'll need to manually substitute the data, obtained from his calculator, into this formula:

1 -((Total Damage/(Calculated Damage + Crit Damage) = Redux Factor

Riltus

[Gnomad]

Since there is no damage padding, this hit shows that there is enough redux to reduce this hit from 18.2 to a value of 9.5 to 10.4 which rounds to 10.

From this you can then determine that the redux factor is approximately .45 or 45%. ((1 - (10/18.2). So redux affects crit damage now as well? I didn't know that.

So, am I understanding this? Pretty much, Redux (r) now is:
http://pflats.fuckyouanddie.com/gs4/r.gif

The crit rank (c) is:
http://pflats.fuckyouanddie.com/gs4/c.gif

And the actual damage (d) is:
http://pflats.fuckyouanddie.com/gs4/d.gif

I know I read on the officials a lot that, with regards to Redux, you get 1 point towards redux per rank of PT, .4 per rank of secondary physical skills, and .3 per rank of weapon skills. Where did the 1, .4, .3 come from? A GM post?

How do they correlate to redux?

[Latrinsorm]

In the third equation, you have to multiply the crit damage by "r" as well.

The redux point system comes from testing done by Porcell.

The translation from redux points to redux factor isn't very nice. Luckily, Mark seems to have a better bead on it than me, so I'll let him go into it. :D

[Riltus]

How do they correlate to redux?

This is Latrinsorm's department.

Take a gander at his spiffy graph.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/johnnyoldschool/comp.gif



The translation from redux points to redux factor isn't very nice. Luckily, Mark seems to have a better bead on it than me, so I'll let him go into it. :D

Not a chance in hell I'm going to try and explain this. :nono:

Between now and the time your character reaches the cap, expect the redux factor to increase from .45 to no more than approximately .60, or so. This is assuming a rate of 6.3 redux points per level.

Riltus