Fucking Mexicans

[Methais]

Friend of mine sent me this earlier today. I'm guessing it actually happened in California, but I don't pay attention to the news or anything so it might be a cleverly written chain letter for all I know. Anyone else hear about this?


Montebello High School in California


You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front
page of the NY Times or on the lead story of the major news networks.
The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying
upside down at Montebello High School in California .

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/image001.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/image002.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/image003.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/image004.jpg

I predict this stunt will be the nail in the coffin of
any guest-worker/amnesty plan on the table in Washington . The image of
the American flag subsumed to another and turned upside down on American soil is already spreading on Internet forums and via e-mail.

Pass this along to every American citizen in your
address books and to every representative in the state and federal government. If you choose to remain uninvolved, do not be amazed when you no longer have a nation to call your own nor anything you have
worked for left since it will be 'redistributed' to the activists while you are so peacefully staying out of the 'fray'. Check history, it is full of nations/empires that disappeared when its citizens no longer held their core beliefs and values. One person CAN make a difference.


One plus one plus one plus one plus one plus one....... .

The battle for our secure borders and immigration laws
that actually mean something, however, hasn't even begun.

[Back]

OMG THEY ARE TAKING OVER OUR COUNTRY!!!!!

Kids will be kids. Get over it.

[Methais]

And millions of Mexicans illegally entering the country and being worthless scrubs that don't pay taxes or do anything worth a shit and causing everything to be written in Spanish even though this is an English speaking country will be millions of Mexicans illegally entering the country and being worthless scrubs that don't pay taxes or do anything worth a shit and causing everything to be written in Spanish even though this is an English speaking country. Get over that too?

[Back]

Rant much? Hate your next door neighbor too because they go to church or stay up late or drive a different car?

Viva Americanas pinche cabron!

[Sean]

Is it a douche bag move? certainly. Do I think it will be a catalyst for change? certainly not. Not to mention it wasn't only hispanic students who took part in the action.

[Stanley Burrell]

Because there's never been a pasty, white, emaciated GemStone-playing Anglo-Saxon who wore Chassidic Jew Black and rocked name brand pentagrams telling everyone how peaceful their Satan worshipping pseudo-philosophical anarchy stance was who also might have had the ambition to hang an American flag upside down because of all that quasi-pubescent rage.

Hold the Montabella High School of California (very) responsible for allowing it to occur, not group of people X.

[Jolena]

Blanket judgements are bad, mmkay?

[Blazing247]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1547837122208198822&q=mexican+osama&total=68&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1


One of many incidents. Listen, my grandmother was born in Italy, my grandfather was born in Poland, both came to this country legally, paid taxes their entire lives, and more importantly than anything else, blended into American culture while still preserving their heritage. They learned to speak fluent English, and never, ever, not even once, spoke their native language in America outside of the house and familial gatherings. They own their own home, a vacation home, and never once landed on welfare, in jail, or abused our medical system. These are people who emigrated to our country and grew up during the depression, when there was NO SUCH THING AS A FREE HANDOUT. They worked very fucking hard to get where they are because they were proud, respectful people.

These fucking POS Mexican border runners who want a better life at the cost of what little nationality we have left can go hang themselves. If I were in the border states I'd be right there with them all knocking over the water jugs so they could dehydrate in the desert. It's possible to come to America legally and be a very worthwhile and contributory citizen and make this country a better place with your diversity. These people are not doing this. Their own country is a shithole because they are lazy and mostly criminals, and they are looking for a free handout. Chanting Osama? That's cute. I know this sounds racist and I don't apologize for that. It's one thing to come to this country the right way, it's another to come here illegally, and it's yet another to come here illegally and spit upon the country that is spoon feeding you.

This is a hot-button issue because, while most Americans are afraid to admit it publicly, we don't want your fucking kind here. Everyone is a closet racist, the only difference is we aren't invading Mexico, they are invading us. /rant

[Back]

Woah. You don’t speak for me pendejo.

What little nationality we have?

:head asplode:

[Blazing247]

So you'd welcome any and all who want to come to this country, regardless?

http://www.networkworld.com/community3/?q=taxonomy/term/3951

Immigration is a good thing. Diversity is a good thing. In moderation. Done legally. Again, I don't care if I sound racist, it's the fear of being labeled a racist and allowing the status quo we have now that will eventually turn this country into Amexica.

[TheEschaton]

All that occured before the royal fucking the corporate-political structure decided to do to democracy.

And you're a world class idiot. As an immigrant, I can tell you, it's impossible to come to this country legally without being threatened with death in your home country (and not even then, sometimes). Their own countries are shitholes because we enforce a corporate globalism that favors us over them, insisting on corporate equality while not giving two shits about a social equality, allowing our companies to go over there freely to get low wages, and not allowing their workers to come over here for high wages.

America brought this on itself: it pushed the American dream, it put money over culture, and now that Mexicans are taking it seriously, and trying to get their slice of the pie and not really caring about being "American" in terms of your 1950s idyllic life that never really existed, you're upset because they're operating in the system your own country pushes?

Yeah, try again, asshat. Not everyone is a racist, but I'm glad that's how you justify yours.

Edited to add: we did invade them. Many times. The latest was with NAFTA in the mid-90s...oddly enough, coinciding exactly with the surge in illegal immigration.

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

As an immigrant, I can tell you, it's impossible to come to this country legally without being threatened with death in your home country (and not even then, sometimes).

And that affects me how? Whatever fuckhole of a country you're from, what would they do if they found me there illegally and I raped one of your women?


Their own countries are shitholes because we enforce a corporate globalism that favors us over them, insisting on corporate equality while not giving two shits about a social equality, allowing our companies to go over there freely to get low wages, and not allowing their workers to come over here for high wages.

Are you even serious here? It's our fault that another country can't advance past third world status? Because this country has accomplished in 200+ years what other countries haven't been able to accomplish since the dawn of civilization? Our companies going over there to give them jobs, not our own workers? Putting money into your economies, not ours? Also, we fast-pass people with valuable skills, who want to come here and fill a position and work for high wages, so what the fuck are you talking about?


America brought this on itself: it pushed the American dream, it put money over culture, and now that Mexicans are taking it seriously, and trying to get their slice of the pie and not really caring about being "American" in terms of your 1950s idyllic life that never really existed, you're upset because they're operating in the system your own country pushes?

Again, our fault? So I like that car that you bought, it's nicer than mine, I'm gonna take it from you illegally. That's cool bro right? 1950's idyllic life? So expecting people to make an effort to learn the native language of a country they are living in, instead of making me learn their language, is wrong? People having self-reliance and self respect? Contributing to the greater good? You're right, what a stupid thing to expect of a fellow countryman.

TRY THIS SHIT IN ANOTHER COUNTRY. SEE HOW FAR YOU GET. Not very far. America is a bleeding heart breeding ground, and the fact that some people will sit and read your snot and think they are somehow responsible for this by merely being American is sad. It's our fault in the sense that we don't take illegal immigration and crime as serious as other countries do.

[Shari]

Its a bunch of high school kids looking for attention. Most of them probably have NO idea what they are doing or what it stands for. I do think the HS should be held ENTIRELY accountable for this shit to happen. Those kids are LUCKY they can get away with this, given our rights in this country. Try that anywhere else and you'd be shot.

I have friends who have immigrated here from Mexico and Chile. It took them MANY years and a lot of money to do so. Those who I know who ARE from southern/central America who came here legally are disgusted by those sneaking into this country, when there are THOUSANDS of people STILL waiting to live in this country the RIGHT WAY.

[The Ponzzz]

Just throw some pocket change on the ground, they will scatter.

/racism

[Methais]

Edited to add: we did invade them. Many times. The latest was with NAFTA in the mid-90s...oddly enough, coinciding exactly with the surge in illegal immigration.

If all these Mexicans are gonna jump the border and our retarded government is going to allow it, maybe it's time we invade them again then and just conquer the entire nation and make it part of the US. After nuking it of course.

[TheEschaton]

Are you even serious here? It's our fault that another country can't advance past third world status?

And there it is. Globalism is our creation, and it has created a status quo where they has to be a winner and a loser - it's capitalism on a country-by-country basis. The World Bank and IMF ensure that countries like Mexico and the rest of Latin America continue to cycle downwards in debt, allow American companies in their countries with tax breaks, and basically economically rape and pillage the country. It's been done all over Latin America and Africa.

Why don't you study global economics, and get back to me, huh?

Oh, by the way, as for this "OMFG, J00 CANT SAY THAT IN OTHAR COUNTRIES, DEY SH00TS J00!!!!!111" bullshit...most of Latin America, Europe, and Africa, are beginning to see the ill effects of capitalism - I'm sure if you railed against a gov't for being too capitalist, no one would shoot you, but actually listen to you. The socialist parties in all those countries are much larger and stronger.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Their own country is a shithole because they are lazy and mostly criminals, and they are looking for a free handout.Yeah how could that sound racist at all...

[Skirmisher]

So you'd welcome any and all who want to come to this country, regardless?

http://www.networkworld.com/community3/?q=taxonomy/term/3951

Immigration is a good thing. Diversity is a good thing. In moderation. Done legally. Again, I don't care if I sound racist, it's the fear of being labeled a racist and allowing the status quo we have now that will eventually turn this country into Amexica.

Well i'm glad you aren't worried about being labeled for what you are.

Sounds like those kids were being stupid as hell to me is all and it's fine with me to have them be charged with whatever is an applicable offense.

Or...we could blame an entire country of people for the actions of like 25...yeah thats a much better way to go.

[Jenisi]

It's very insulting what these kids did, but it's seriously what this country is headed for. Illegal immagrant comes over and 60-70% are high school dropouts and they'll make $10,000 a year and they'll cost the country 30,000 big ones a year, they're costing us money. What kind of future are they going to have over here? Being illegal? Working for 10k a year? It takes $15,000 bucks a year (harvard study) for one person to be able to take care of themselves in "all right" fashion. They'll have to be drug dealers, theives and what not to survive because they're not going to make enough on minimum wage which they get paid. George Bush likes mexicans, first thing he did in office was spend 2 weeks in Mexico kissing ass to Vicente Fox and trying to set up trade deals, we have trade deficit of 60 billion dollars with mexico alone. There are 40 tunnels half a mile long into warhouses underground leading them to this country, and who set that up? The poor mexicans? No, it's all about exploiting the poor. The goverement has over 50,000 illegals working for them today.

They're devistating the social programs, closing hospitals in Texas and California. The tax payers have to make up the difference, it's a burden on society. In 30 years their pention benefits will cost social security 2.6 tillion dollars. The sad part of all this, is they have no idea how many illegals are even over here. 12? 20? 30 million? They're going to keep coming and there is no stopping them. And when they keep going, more workers than work, the wages will drop.

The crime rate in California is going out of control, as well as Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona all through the roof. 15-20% of the ones coming over are crimals and with up to 30 million, you do the math. 700,000 are in prisons right now that are costing 45,000 bucks a year paid for by the US taxpayers, if it were me I'd send the bill down to Mexico and have them pay it. That boarder should be shut down just for the fact that 25-50 billion dollars of drugs come across that boarder every year. Everything from Meth to Cocaine.

I could rant some more but I'm not feeling so hot today. Secure the boarders bitches.

[TheEschaton]

Ummm, cost social security? Most illegals aren't paid on a payroll, or file taxes, or whatnot, what that means is they're not gonna get SS either. Or Medicaid, or Medicare.

You're an idiot. Oh, and by the way, if the minimum wage = $5.75 (let's just be generous, and say $6, for calculations purposes), 6 * 40 = 240 * 52 (no 2 weeks off for these guys, let's assume), 12,480. If your Harvard study is true, then this is an issue of minimum wage being a wage that's unlivable on, unless you work a second job.

700,000 are in prison because we have an inane policy that if you're illegal (or even legal, with a green card, and commit a deportable crime), and commit a crime, you serve the time, and then are deported. Does that make sense? Not much.

-TheE-

[Jenisi]

Sorry meant to say if this immigration bill passes, they will cost us 2.6 trillion. I have the flu and little loopey. But don't call me an idiot because I'm not pro-illegals. I'm all for divirsity, they don't have to come over here in the trunk of a Buick.

[TheEschaton]

Again, I reiterate, you're an idiot.

[Jenisi]

You sure told me!

[Methais]

Some of you people are extreme vaginas.

I say we nuke Mexico. After we nuke the middle east of course.

[TheSmooth1]

So why don't we just conquer Mexico? You know, nearly double the landmass, kick the mexicans out...

[Methais]

Let's do it. Head to the border and start buffing.

[Skirmisher]

Jeez are you a moron.

[Jenisi]

All that occured before the royal fucking the corporate-political structure decided to do to democracy.

And you're a world class idiot. As an immigrant, I can tell you, it's impossible to come to this country legally without being threatened with death in your home country (and not even then, sometimes). Their own countries are shitholes because we enforce a corporate globalism that favors us over them, insisting on corporate equality while not giving two shits about a social equality, allowing our companies to go over there freely to get low wages, and not allowing their workers to come over here for high wages.

America brought this on itself: it pushed the American dream, it put money over culture, and now that Mexicans are taking it seriously, and trying to get their slice of the pie and not really caring about being "American" in terms of your 1950s idyllic life that never really existed, you're upset because they're operating in the system your own country pushes?

Yeah, try again, asshat. Not everyone is a racist, but I'm glad that's how you justify yours.

Edited to add: we did invade them. Many times. The latest was with NAFTA in the mid-90s...oddly enough, coinciding exactly with the surge in illegal immigration.

-TheE-

You're saying this like we don't have a legal system set up for immigrants to come here. My great grandparents came over here legally (From the Ukraine and Czechoslovakia) through Ellis island in 1915 on the White Star Line, and made a living for themselves.

As for the "American Dream" I don't think asking for at least knowing how to speak the language of the country you live in is that big to ask for. When I lived in Charlotte, I lived at an apartment complex that had tons of Mexicans living at it. Illegal or Legal, I don't know. One day I'm driving through the complex and have my windows down. One runs up to my car speaking frantically in Spanish, which I'm sorry to say I don't know, and obviously something was very wrong, he was near tears. I escorted him to the office of the apartment complex because I didn't know what else to do or how to help him (I didn't have a cell phone to call the police for him). I never did find out what happend, but hopefully it wasn't something so serious that him not knowing English costed a life.

I have nothing against Mexicans, personally. It's not a personal situation. Some can be good people, getting away from shitholes and trying to make a better life for themselves. But the reality is, between drugs, crime, and abusing the system they are doing more harm than good. The "American Dream" doesn't include breaking laws to get your slice of the pie, that's not what it's about.

It's not all just their fault as well, we haven't done our part to secure the boarders or enforce the laws. It's definatly something that needs to change. Amenesty happened once, and was promised to never happen again and boarders would be secured. They never fucking did it and now we're paying the price.

[Lomoriond]

You know what the solution is? Legalize abortion... until age 18... that would solve so many problems in this world... Your dumbshit kid brings home straight F's? Abort! Your dumbshit daughter come home pregnant at age 14? UNDO! Your piece of shit neo-goth emo brat tell you he isn't going to listen to you anymore? Abort that piece of shit and then get sterilized. Hire an illegal immigrant to kick you in the balls a few times for good measure.

OR, EVEN BETTER. We should trick canada into invading mexico, LOLZ

Yeah, yeah.. and then we can get the mexicadians to invade turkey, because their name sucks... and then the mexicadavians to invade the MOON...

OMG FUCK THE MOON, lets bomb that shit!

This post brought to you by arrogant ignorant forum shits regurgitating things people smarter than them came up with.

Happy 4th of July!

L ~ Got paid $160 to sit on his fat ass today. Woot for the american dream.

[Jenisi]

50% dropout rate for high school students in America? Are on on crack? Maybe for minority sub-groups.

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/1HighSchoolDropout.cfm

[Whimsi]

I'm betting a burrito this thread goes 11 pages

/gambler

[Jenisi]

Mexican food does rock, I'll give you that ;p

[Lomoriond]

I wrote a thesis paper maybe 4 years ago on rural versus urban high school drop out rates, and the numbers were a little wonky, so I did a little digging.

50% of all students who enroll as freshman in high school do not complete their senior year. You just don't hear about the numbers being that high because the numbers fudgers go back and cut people off the "drop-out list" if they get a GED or enroll in some kind of work program/community college.

To be fair, I did a lot of bullshitting along the way and don't have access to my college infoshare program to dig all the old articles out again... so don't QUOTE me on 50%... but it is shockingly high when you unfudge the numbers.

[Lomoriond]

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/1HighSchoolDropout.cfm

1This indicator uses the status dropout rate which measures the percentage of young adults aged 16 to 24 who were not enrolled in a high school program and had not received a high school diploma or obtained an equivalency certificate.

Find the "enrolled as freshman" in 1999 and "graduated as seniors" in 2003 stats... which were my original numbers in my paper. Theres a 50% loss rate, but they want to claim a whopping 15%

Try to find that missing 35% and you'll find them fudged off the list because they got a GED or entered a work program or (my personal favorite) were "forced to cease high school for personal and not academic reasons"

[Lomoriond]

Which has nothing to do with those damn dirty mexican mother fuckers taking all the good jobs at walmart and jack in the box.

FUCK MEXICO

And damn you for reading that 50% bit before I edited it out... I usually avoid even saying it because then I actually have to explain it and I'm far too lazy to actually dig out stats

[Jenisi]

It's not Mexicans getting legal jobs at Walmart or Jack In the Box. IT'S THE ILLEGALS I have a problem with, good grief.

[TheEschaton]

You're saying this like we don't have a legal system set up for immigrants to come here. My great grandparents came over here legally (From the Ukraine and Czechoslovakia) through Ellis island in 1915 on the White Star Line, and made a living for themselves.

Errr, no. What I am saying is that with the rise of the corporations, and their lackey embodied in Reagan as President, the legal system has been subdued by a corporate oligarchy which demands free access to global workforces, but doesn't allow workforces free access to American liberties.

-TheE-

[Skirmisher]

...
But the reality is, between drugs, crime, and abusing the system they are doing more harm than good. The "American Dream" doesn't include breaking laws to get your slice of the pie, that's not what it's about.
...


Boy i'll be glad when we get rid of all those damned illegal Mexicans so we can go back to having a country with no drugs, no crime and no one abusing the system again.

[Lomoriond]

It's not Mexicans getting legal jobs at Walmart or Jack In the Box. IT'S THE ILLEGALS I have a problem with, good grief.

Yes, because Walmart and Jack in the Box are the ONLY places mexicans work legal or otherwise...

It couldn't POSSIBLY have been sarcastic

[Jenisi]

Boy i'll be glad when we get rid of all those damned illegal Mexicans so we can go back to having a country with no drugs, no crime and no one abusing the system again.

STFU!! You sayin all our problems won't go away if we send em back and force them to enter the country the right way? Well shit, I didn't think about that!!! On a serious note, the drugs coming across that boarder is rediculous. You approach a boarder guard and hand him a package with 10 grand in it for him to turn his head the other way, how many you think will turn down the 10 grand? I'm saying that crime has skyrocketed in Texas, California, Arizona and New Mexico, not the whole USA and I'm not saying all our problems will go away if illegals do. I'm not that blind.

Ignoring a problem because we have these own problems in our country from our citizens doesn't make it right. Anyone legal doing that crap should land in jail etc and pay their price. To ignore that it's becoming a huge problem and to laugh at the idea that the boarder not being patroled properly is just moronic.

[ViridianAsp]

All I can say, not all of them are entering illegally. I work with a guy who came here legally from Mexico, and he is learning to speak English, he asks me all the time how to say things in English.

What these kids and that school did was stupid. It only makes people who resent their disregard of our country (that gives them more opportunities and help), resent them even more to the point that they resent all and any of the Hispanic community.

I live in California, but this sort of thing really isn't unusual. Most Mexicans are extremely proud of their heritage and I have no problem with it, as long as they don't bash the country that's giving them far more than they would ever get in Mexico.

[Blazing247]

Quick, someone put the Baron's heart plug back into Skirmisher before she bleeds to death.

I am so glad that people are willing to spend their hard earned money to support completely worthless strangers who broke dozens of laws to get into this country unlawfully. I am not. If that makes me a racist, so be it.

Skirmisher and TheE, do you guys even know what you're arguing AGAINST? Sum up your view on illegal immigration, I'm having a hard time finding out what the fuck you two are saying other than "racism is BAAAD, America is BAAAD".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=immigration&total=9983&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Sean]

STFU!! You sayin all our problems won't go away if we send em back and force them to enter the country the right way? Well shit, I didn't think about that!!! On a serious note, the drugs coming across that boarder is rediculous. You approach a boarder guard and hand him a package with 10 grand in it for him to turn his head the other way, how many you think will turn down the 10 grand? I'm saying that crime has skyrocketed in Texas, California, Arizona and New Mexico, not the whole USA and I'm not saying all our problems will go away if illegals do. I'm not that blind.

Ignoring a problem because we have these own problems in our country from our citizens doesn't make it right. Anyone legal doing that crap should land in jail etc and pay their price. To ignore that it's becoming a huge problem and to laugh at the idea that the boarder not being patroled properly is just moronic.


Perhaps you'd be better served asking why theres such a high demand for illegal narcotics on this side of the border.

[Back]

This is a great thread for the 4th of July. Independence day for a group of immigrants.

[Artha]

On a serious note, the drugs coming across that boarder is rediculous.

Seriously, ditchweed has got to go.

[TheEschaton]

Dirt weed is how pot dealers make all their money though! Stupid teenagers not knowing any better...

-theE-

[Daniel]

You're saying this like we don't have a legal system set up for immigrants to come here. My great grandparents came over here legally (From the Ukraine and Czechoslovakia) through Ellis island in 1915 on the White Star Line, and made a living for themselves.


Yea. It was real hard boarding that boat and being like "Can I come to America?"

[Nieninque]

I like how the mods have moved all the stupid from the forums into one thread.

Edited because the smilies have changed :(

[Blazing247]

Yea. It was real hard boarding that boat and being like "Can I come to America?"

During a time when people had to save up everything just for that boat ride, and once they arrived here, they weren't given a damn thing except a new last name for many of them, during the Great Depression, when you could easily starve to death even if you HAD a job, when you learned English RIGHT OFF THE BOAT because there weren't translator's and translations into umpteen billion languages and you needed to speak English to survive. You're right, so easy.

And TheE, I'm still waiting to hear your stance on this issue. You, evidently, did it legally, so I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint.

[Methais]

Perhaps you'd be better served asking why theres such a high demand for illegal narcotics on this side of the border.

Because people need drugs to be able to deal with all the non-English speaking illegal Mexicans without resorting to murder.

EDIT: Nienienque's sig still rules everything even after all this time. Every time she posts I spent at least 5 minutes watching it over and over. This thread is now about the awesomeness of Nienienque's sig and no longer about worthless Mexicans.

[TheEschaton]

Stance on which issue?

My father was top of his class at the University of Delhi. He worked for Peat Warwick in Zambia. By pure intelligence and skill, he got accepted to Wharton, the best business school in the nation, at the University of Pennsylvania...pending whether he could get a student visa and a gov't grant to pay for the education. He applied, but they (INS) wanted, basically, a financial guarantor to guarantee he wouldn't just take the money and run. My father's uncle, who lived in London went to be interviewed - they wouldn't accept his financial guarantee, even though he had more than enough money to cover the grant. Then, my uncle's wife, who was a white British lady, went for the interview, guaranteed my father with her husband's money, and suddenly she was good enough for his guarantor.

My dad then went to Philly to go to school. He lived on the gov't grant, which meant he had to live in the Y for months while he studied for his MBA at an Ivy. Of course, he had no extra money for the rest of us (my mother, myself, and my sister) to come with him. After working full time during his MBA on top of the grant, at one of Wharton's clinical programs, he saved enough money for the three of us to come over (a year later). When he was a few months from graduating, he got an offer to work with a bank.

The problem, of course, is that student visas expire automatically when you graduate, and they don't automatically lead into permanent residency if you get a job. Therefore, many jobs are hesitant to hire foreign nationals since there's little assurance they'll be able to stay. Luckily, the CEO of the bank who had interviewed my father was a German immigrant from after WWII, and he (and the bank) was willing to try and help my dad get his green card.

In spite of a standing offer from a bank, and good grades at a Ivy league b-school, and a guarantor from overseas, my father could not get a green card. Finally, the CEO of said bank, who knew our local congressman (John LaFalce, who was on the House banking subcommittee), petitioned him to get a green card for my father.

Congressman LaFalce then got my father a green card by introducing the application on the floor, and it was approved (from what I understand, individual petitions from Congressmen are usually largely unopposed provided there's no criminal background of the applicant).

And that's how my father (and eventually all of us) got our green cards and our citizenship...we jumped through so many hoops that included Congressional intervention. And this was the mid-80s, which was the start of Reagan's xenophobic immigration measures.

So do I think legal immigration is unfair? Damn sure I do. Do I think it's practical for average people? Yup. Impossible for unskilled (yet still direly needed by many corporations) workers? Of course.

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

That's all well and fine, but I asked about illegal immigration, which is the topic of this category.

[Stanley Burrell]

To all those whom are severely concerned about the infinite number of Mexicans in this country:

How many Mexicans do you know personally? Not the B.S., let's-be-overly-philosophical-and-denote-Pedro-at-Wal-Mart-as-a-sudden-life-long-close-acquaintence personally: The real personally. What the fuck is with these generalizations?

[TheEschaton]

My personal beliefs normally hold that you shouldn't do something illegal unless the law is unjust.

In this case, I think our immigration law is grossly unjust, perhaps some of the most unjust laws in our country. I have no problem with so-called illegal immigration because I recognize they are a necessary part of our economy. Giving them amnesty will...guess what: put them on the tax rolls.

Furthermore, I happen to believe that this is a country which welcomes all those who are oppressed, and I believe that also includes economic oppression (much of which we've caused).

And lastly, even though I don't agree with capitalism and globalism, if we as a country are going to subscribe to it, we should be consistent - if we allow our companies to chase low wages and low benefits in Mexico, we should allow their workforce to chase high wages and high benefits here in the U.S. It's the free market, isn't it?? It's all about COMPETITION!

The ugly truth about modern capitalism is that it isn't about competition. It's about cronyism, and protectionism.

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

You know Pedro too!? In all seriousness, I've worked with many Peruvian's, Guatemalan's, and Mexican's at my old night job. I wouldn't say they were close friends, but we all hung out during and after work. Let me tell you, I'd much rather have the Guat's and Peruvian's hopping the border into our country. What's your point?

[Nieninque]

Because people need drugs to be able to deal with all the non-English speaking illegal Mexicans without resorting to murder.

EDIT: Nienienque's sig still rules everything even after all this time. Every time she posts I spent at least 5 minutes watching it over and over. This thread is now about the awesomeness of Nienienque's sig and no longer about worthless Mexicans.

You mean my avatar?

I was close to changing it today. I have had it a long time and this one Im using is a reduced memory version so it skips a lot of the awesomeness.

I couldnt bring myself to change it though, even though the next one is quite cool too.

[Clove]

Draft illegals.

[Blazing247]

My personal beliefs normally hold that you shouldn't do something illegal unless the law is unjust.

In this case, I think our immigration law is grossly unjust, perhaps some of the most unjust laws in our country. I have no problem with so-called illegal immigration because I recognize they are a necessary part of our economy. Giving them amnesty will...guess what: put them on the tax rolls.

-TheE-


Out of curiosity, which part of our immigration law is unjust? What is the "so-called" (meaning you don't believe it to be true?) part of the illegal immigration problem? What does an illegal immigrant provide to our economy? What percentage of an illegal immigrant's wages are spent in this country, and what part are shipped back to their family in Mexico? What will putting 20 million illegal aliens on our tax rolls and giving them access to public assistance do to our country economically and socially?

[TheEschaton]

The requirements for legal entry are impossibly unjust. Then, the laws which govern deportation are also unjust, where minor misdemeanors can get a person deported. And, lastly, the asylum laws are crazy unjust, as the Immigration Courts do all they can to reject even just asylum cases, and judges are completely without oversight, are politically appointed, and can deny asylum just based on their gut.

With the move of farming from family-owned to commercial, illegal immigrants provide all the grunt work of picking fruits, or what have you. Until recently, illegal immigrants made 30 something cents for a BUSHEL of tomatoes (sold in fast food restaurants, regular restaurants, and grocery markets across the country). Recently, they scored a huge victory - a six cent per bushel raise, give them a bit more than 40 cents a bushel. All across the country, illegal immigrants do the shit jobs you don't want to do....

....and don't make enough to support themselves, let alone send it back to their families. My father sends money back to his parents, but he probably makes much more than your illegal immigrant worker. Middle class legal immigrants send money back to their parents. Lower class, legal or illegal immigrants can't afford to send money back.

Socially, I don't see how putting immigrants on our tax rolls changes anything. Unless you're one of the class elitists who like to lament the "lucky ducky" poor who don't have to pay income tax because their income is so low. Economically, I'm sure you'll find all the two job immigrant families will fall above that minimum threshold, and have to pay taxes. Plus, being on the tax rolls means when they're paid, they have to contribute to SS and Medicaid and Medicare, etc, etc. This is basic economics.

-TheE-

[Back]

Out of curiosity, which part of our immigration law is unjust? What is the "so-called" (meaning you don't believe it to be true?) part of the illegal immigration problem? What does an illegal immigrant provide to our economy? What percentage of an illegal immigrant's wages are spent in this country, and what part are shipped back to their family in Mexico? What will putting 20 million illegal aliens on our tax rolls and giving them access to public assistance do to our country economically and socially?

I can explain it in less words than TheE.

You are stupid.

You want an explanation? Fine.

Take a few seconds out of your day to seriously think for yourself what you have been spoon fed.

Also think about where your ancestors came from and where you are now because of that.

Fucking dumbass.

[Blazing247]

I'm asking for an explanation because it's one thing to say "this sucks" and another to give reasons why for discussion. Backlash, you are without a doubt the most ridiculed and laughed at person EVER on these boards. Yes, more so than Warclaidhm. Nobody takes anything you say seriously, you're a bushel short of a bushel, and I have no idea why you post on a forum where everyone laughs at any thread you start and people consider you a creepy cyber stalker. In short, you have no place in this world to call anyone else on God's green Earth, including Corky, a fucking dumbass.

You may hate me, everyone may hate me, but...nothing you have ever said...ever...has amounted to being worth the expenditure in energy it took you to write it. You're a worthless tool, not because your viewpoint differs from mine, but because you don't have a viewpoint other than "GOVERNMENT IS BAD" and you're a fucking hypocrite to top it off. Bye bye.

[Back]

I'm asking for an explanation because it's one thing to say "this sucks" and another to give reasons why for discussion. Backlash, you are without a doubt the most ridiculed and laughed at person EVER on these boards. Yes, more so than Warclaidhm. Nobody takes anything you say seriously, you're a bushel short of a bushel, and I have no idea why you post on a forum where everyone laughs at any thread you start and people consider you a creepy cyber stalker. In short, you have no place in this world to call anyone else on God's green Earth, including Corky, a fucking dumbass.

You may hate me, everyone may hate me, but...nothing you have ever said...ever...has amounted to being worth the expenditure in energy it took you to write it. You're a worthless tool, not because your viewpoint differs from mine, but because you don't have a viewpoint other than "GOVERNMENT IS BAD" and you're a fucking hypocrite to top it off. Bye bye.

LOL

[unconcerned1]

LOL

x2, but not for the same reason.

[Gan]

Backlash, you are without a doubt the most ridiculed and laughed at person EVER on these boards. Yes, more so than Warclaidhm. Nobody takes anything you say seriously, you're a bushel short of a bushel, and I have no idea why you post on a forum where everyone laughs at any thread you start and people consider you a creepy cyber stalker. In short, you have no place in this world to call anyone else on God's green Earth, including Corky, a fucking dumbass.

LOL


x2, but not for the same reason.
x3

[Warriorbird]

Sadly...ADM and Walmart don't give a fuck about your complaints, Methais.


If all these Mexicans are gonna jump the border and our retarded government is going to allow it, maybe it's time we invade them again then and just conquer the entire nation and make it part of the US. After nuking it of course.

Salinas actually pretty much offered it to us. We didn't want it.

[Landrion]

I'm asking for an explanation because it's one thing to say "this sucks" and another to give reasons why for discussion. Backlash, you are without a doubt the most ridiculed and laughed at person EVER on these boards. Yes, more so than Warclaidhm. .

In all honesty, not even close. Backlash isn't in the same league Kevin, she-who-must-not-be-named or X. In fact, Id put Backlash over at least one current poster.

[Daniel]

During a time when people had to save up everything just for that boat ride, and once they arrived here, they weren't given a damn thing except a new last name for many of them, during the Great Depression, when you could easily starve to death even if you HAD a job, when you learned English RIGHT OFF THE BOAT because there weren't translator's and translations into umpteen billion languages and you needed to speak English to survive. You're right, so easy.

And TheE, I'm still waiting to hear your stance on this issue. You, evidently, did it legally, so I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint.


So I take it you've never been to New York or any other major city and heard a language besids English being spoken huh? Chinatown, Lil Italy?

Or that you believe all mexicans that come here are simply looking for a welfare check and not a job to take care of their families?

You talk about people starving to death as it was a rite of passage, but did you *not* just talk about knocking over water barrels so people die of dehydration of the way over here?

What pray tell is the difference? (aside from the color of their skin).

[Daniel]

Out of curiosity, which part of our immigration law is unjust? What is the "so-called" (meaning you don't believe it to be true?) part of the illegal immigration problem? What does an illegal immigrant provide to our economy? What percentage of an illegal immigrant's wages are spent in this country, and what part are shipped back to their family in Mexico? What will putting 20 million illegal aliens on our tax rolls and giving them access to public assistance do to our country economically and socially?

It's amazing that you have to ask this question after he told you that his father pretty much had to suck congressional dick just to get a green card despite being highly qualified to stay here.

[Nieninque]

Americans bitching about immigrants is just funny.

[Warriorbird]

I agree. Outsourcing on the other hand...you curiously never hear some of the immigration foes bitch about.

[Celephais]

Stance on which issue?

And that's how my father (and eventually all of us) got our green cards and our citizenship...we jumped through so many hoops that included Congressional intervention. And this was the mid-80s, which was the start of Reagan's xenophobic immigration measures.

Holy shit, please don't tell me you actually think that was "difficult"!? Your father had to sit through some INTERVIEWS, fill out FORMS, have his passage paid for, got to LIVE FOR FREE while he studied, and then he had to work a fucking DESK JOB and sit through more interviews and fill out more forms? Give me a fucking break, please don't tell me that isn't being handed citizenship on a silver platter.

What about any black person whos ansestors came over as slaves? How about the immigrants during the civil war who came over on the boat just intime to be forced to get on another boat and go strait to war. What about the american's who've been drafted into war and come home and are called baby-killers.

Don't tell me filling out paperwork is an undue burden on a potential citizen; plenty have earned it with blood.

[Alfster]

This thread is so named wrong.

---> Fucking Mexicant's

[Gan]

This thread is so named wrong.

---> Fucking Mexicant's

ROFL

[Blazing247]

It's amazing that you have to ask this question after he told you that his father pretty much had to suck congressional dick just to get a green card despite being highly qualified to stay here.

Even if the process of legal immigration isn't EASY (which I disagree with), that doesn't make it unjust. He states the immigration law is unjust. Saying it was hard for his father to get his green card does not equal an unjust law. It's amazing you can't see the difference between difficult and unjust. So again, in what way is the immigration law unjust?

[Blazing247]

Holy shit, please don't tell me you actually think that was "difficult"!? Your father had to sit through some INTERVIEWS, fill out FORMS, have his passage paid for, got to LIVE FOR FREE while he studied, and then he had to work a fucking DESK JOB and sit through more interviews and fill out more forms? Give me a fucking break, please don't tell me that isn't being handed citizenship on a silver platter.

What about any black person whos ansestors came over as slaves? How about the immigrants during the civil war who came over on the boat just intime to be forced to get on another boat and go strait to war. What about the american's who've been drafted into war and come home and are called baby-killers.

Don't tell me filling out paperwork is an undue burden on a potential citizen; plenty have earned it with blood.

I don't know man...free ivy league education, free passage, free room, it all sounds very difficult and I'm sure it was one of the worst times of his life.

[DeV]

The fact that most of the illegal immigrants who come to this country already have a job set up and waiting on their arrival speaks volumes about how serious this country tries to come off regarding illegal immigration.

Supply and demand anyone? There's also a great deal of random disparity in the current system that not only seems to be at odds with the rule of law, but it grants legal status to certain nationalities at a higher rate than others who come from arguably worse economic situations. At the top of the totem pole are Cubans. I think that in itself is bullshit, but it't not their fault for being well organized politically. In any case, my feelings about illegal immigration are fairly solid.

Illegal immigration is still a crime. Enforcing the current laws and providing better border security can offset some of this. I don't care if having a great work ethic, which is nothing more than allowing oneself to be exploited illegally and praised as such, is one of the pluses you always hear about in relation to the jobs they take here in the states, you are still working illegally, thus breaking the law.

On the other hand I believe that people should be allowed to seek a better life elsewhere if their home country cannot offer it and if no forseeable alternatives are available. As such, Mexico isn't a poor country by any means, and the labor they are exporting, illegally, makes up for a lack in highly skilled labor with unwavering motivation to work the least desirable job and send money home or help the rest of their immediate family get across the border. There's a period of time during which assimilation into American culture should take place, but at the current rates of mass immigration this is just not happening.

If you want to become an American citizen it must be accomplished legally, however, the system needs to be more fair and balanced and the laws must be enforced as they currently apply and eventually be reformed.

[Daniel]

Even if the process of legal immigration isn't EASY (which I disagree with), that doesn't make it unjust. He states the immigration law is unjust. Saying it was hard for his father to get his green card does not equal an unjust law. It's amazing you can't see the difference between difficult and unjust. So again, in what way is the immigration law unjust?

It makes it unjust if people are unable to obtain citizenship if they stand to make a contribution to society.

From his story, it is unlikely that he would have gotten his citizenship if he hadn't known someone who knows a congressman. What would have happened if he didn't? How is that just?

[Gan]

Americans bitching about immigrants is just funny.

/Agreed the irony is quite funny.

Although every pot has its limit, even melting ones.

[Some Rogue]

It makes it unjust if people are unable to obtain citizenship if they stand to make a contribution to society.

From his story, it is unlikely that he would have gotten his citizenship if he hadn't known someone who knows a congressman. What would have happened if he didn't? How is that just?

But one anecdotal story is a true picture of how the system is? I'm sure I can go out and find just as many stories of people who just filled out some forms, waited on a list, took their test and were sworn in.

OMG TEH SYSTEM IS TOO EASY!!!1111

[Blazing247]

It makes it unjust if people are unable to obtain citizenship if they stand to make a contribution to society.

From his story, it is unlikely that he would have gotten his citizenship if he hadn't known someone who knows a congressman. What would have happened if he didn't? How is that just?


I can't pretend to know the intricacies of the system, and neither do you, but I will assume they are overwhelmed and understaffed, and while idealistically it would be nice to just let every contributing candidate in, I don't think it's feasible. Maybe he didn't provide a service as in demand as another candidate? The fact is, he got his green card. I'm sure the system needs changing, but of all things, it certainly didn't treat him unjustly.

[Daniel]

I can't pretend to know the intricacies of the system, and neither do you,

Oh, so now you're pretending to tell me what I know? Even better, if you *don't* know, why are you speaking as if you do?

[Clove]

...
Supply and demand anyone? There's also a great deal of random disparity in the current system that not only seems to be at odds with the rule of law, but it grants legal status to certain nationalities at a higher rate than others who come from arguably worse economic situations. At the top of the totem pole are Cubans. I think that in itself is bullshit, but it't not their fault for being well organized politically. In any case, my feelings about illegal immigration are fairly solid...

*stares at CT* Fucking Cubans.

[CrystalTears]

Sean and you need to sit in time out. :(

When a Mexican has to swim across shark-infested waters and hope that they don't get busted in the middle of the ocean and then sent back to their country to "try it again", then they can be on par with Cubans. :tongue:

[Methais]

To all those whom are severely concerned about the infinite number of Mexicans in this country:

How many Mexicans do you know personally? Not the B.S., let's-be-overly-philosophical-and-denote-Pedro-at-Wal-Mart-as-a-sudden-life-long-close-acquaintence personally: The real personally. What the fuck is with these generalizations?

It's hard to get to know them when they don't speak English.


You mean my avatar?

Oh, right. Your avatar. My mistake.

[Methais]

We now interrupt this thread for Hans Gruber.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/hans_gruber_ultimate_villain.jpg

[Blazing247]

Oh, so now you're pretending to tell me what I know? Even better, if you *don't* know, why are you speaking as if you do?

Are you arguing just to argue? Throw your keyboard out, please. I'm telling you that you haven't supplied one fact or tidbit of worthwhile information in this debate other than being argumentative to be argumentative, so you obviously have no idea how it works. I never said "I know how it works and it's fair", I was simply asking TheE, "how is it unjust?", to which he still hasn't supplied an answer other than "it's too hard". From what I can tell, it's not a perfect system but it evidently works because his father is in this country. Are you going to come back at me with "I know you are but what am I?" That's all you seem to be adding to this.

[Sean]

The system didn't work in his case, however knowing the right people worked.

Obviously you can't really view the system on a case by case basis and anecdotal evidence becomes dated. But I suppose TheE's example is as relevant as your example of grandparents immigrating to the US in the 1930s as a model for how one should immigrate.

[Clove]

It makes it unjust if people are unable to obtain citizenship if they stand to make a contribution to society.

Try applying that logic to a Canadian immigration official. No, really, please try. Where is it written that you're entitled to be a citizen of any nation you choose?

[Latrinsorm]

http://www.wirednewyork.com/landmarks/liberty/images/liberty.jpg

Had to be done.

[CrystalTears]

That crusty old bag should never have had anything mentioned about the homeless. Look at the problems she's caused us!

[Celephais]

Had to be done.

I was thinking about this earlier (that's a nice photo BTW), when was the last time any country made such a grand/lasting gesture of good will to another country? Here is a statue that today stands as one of the most iconic images of what America (should?) stands for, it was given as a monument to the commitment to liberty embarked by both america and france. Kinda sucks the general oppinion of france held in america... (I'm one to talk though...)

[Clove]

Kinda sucks the general oppinion of france held in america... (I'm one to talk though...)

Oh c'mon they earned it.

Jerry Lewis=Genius.

[Celephais]

Damnit! I always mis-spell opinion...

I rarely find comedy funnier than making fun of the frenchies... really really really wish I could find that Get Fuzzy where the french pizza delivery guy broke his arm..

[Clove]

Damnit! I always mis-spell opinion...

I rarely find comedy funnier than making fun of the frenchies... really really really wish I could find that Get Fuzzy where the french pizza delivery guy broke his arm..

Me too, Celephais, me too. And yet I love so many french people and things.

[CrystalTears]

French bread.... French fries... French dressing... and to drink... Peru!

[Celephais]

French bread.... French fries... French dressing... and to drink... Peru!

You gotta say it right... Fraunch bread.... Fraunch fries...

I want my two dollars...

[Daniel]

Try applying that logic to a Canadian immigration official. No, really, please try. Where is it written that you're entitled to be a citizen of any nation you choose?

Canada doesn't have the same history of immigration that America does. Therefore, this is an invalid comparison. America was *built* upon the principal of immigration. The very tenets of our society were constructed in such a way so that it would be possible for anyone to imagine the "American dream".

People like Blazing are disgusting because they themselves are a product of this ideal and now they want to change it because they no longer benefit.

[Daniel]

Are you arguing just to argue? Throw your keyboard out, please. I'm telling you that you haven't supplied one fact or tidbit of worthwhile information in this debate other than being argumentative to be argumentative, so you obviously have no idea how it works. I never said "I know how it works and it's fair", I was simply asking TheE, "how is it unjust?", to which he still hasn't supplied an answer other than "it's too hard". From what I can tell, it's not a perfect system but it evidently works because his father is in this country. Are you going to come back at me with "I know you are but what am I?" That's all you seem to be adding to this.


I entered the argument to counter the notion that Jenisi's parents went through some rough immigration process to become Americans and thus everyone else should just suck it up.

Nevermind if that entails waiting for a decade in Limbo or never mind if that means that you can fight and *die* for this country without being a citizen.

The system is not working if you have to get congressional intervention to stay when you are highly qualified. Im sorry. That simply doesn't cut it for the mass amounts of people who don't have that access and who weren't the top of their class at UDelphi. That's complete bullshit and if we applied that line of reasoning to your grandparents then you sure as fuck wouldn't be here.

Douche bag.

[Blazing247]

People like Blazing are disgusting because they themselves are a product of this ideal and now they want to change it because they no longer benefit.


I know you are but what am I? This topic started as a debate on illegal immigration. Someone mentioned they don't see a problem with it, in part because legal immigration is very difficult. I disagree with that. I think there is a huge problem with illegal immigration. I don't think the LEGAL immigration system is such a problem, as I stated. HE stated he thought it was unjust and should change. I don't want it changed. I want the current laws we have to be upheld. Quote me where I stated that something needed to be changed regarding legal immigration to make it more difficult? Please quote me. Don't put words into my mouth. Other than that I'm just going to ignore you, you can ignore me, and all will be fine.

[Celephais]

I'm betting a burrito this thread goes 11 pages

/gambler

So close I bet you can taste that meaty goodness now...

[Sean]

pssh for those of us w/100 post per page it's just reaching page 2 .. now

[Blazing247]

Douche bag? Hmm, maybe. Shouldn't you be hanging with your hood rats and polishing your gat? However do you manage to type a post with the crackpipe in your hand, YO.

[Some Rogue]

America was *built* upon the principal of immigration. The very tenets of our society were constructed in such a way so that it would be possible for anyone to imagine the "American dream".



Yeah, this country was also built on the idea that slavery was ok and was necessary for our economy...things change.

[Daniel]

Yeah, this country was also built on the idea that slavery was ok and was necessary for our economy...things change.

And why was Slavery eventually abolished?

[Daniel]

Douche bag? Hmm, maybe. Shouldn't you be hanging with your hood rats and polishing your gat? However do you manage to type a post with the crackpipe in your hand, YO.

Actually, I'm at the University of Maryland's School of Public Policy right no, with 43 of the top students in America. No hood rats around and no need for the gat. Thanks though ;)

[Methais]

French bread.... French fries... French dressing... and to drink... Peru!

http://www.sptimesphotos.com/blogs/80s/uploaded_images/betteroffdead-729319.jpg
FTW!


I want my two dollars.

http://i1.tinypic.com/set5r6.jpg

Johnny FTW too!

[Daniel]

I know you are but what am I? This topic started as a debate on illegal immigration.

And my post isn't about it...how?

[Celephais]

I think the rule should be you're only allowed to immigrate in if you're a hot french chick who doesn't mind when guys put their testicales all over them.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/80s/images/diane_franklin.jpg

[Clove]

Canada doesn't have the same history of immigration that America does. Therefore, this is an invalid comparison. America was *built* upon the principal of immigration. The very tenets of our society were constructed in such a way so that it would be possible for anyone to imagine the "American dream".

People like Blazing are disgusting because they themselves are a product of this ideal and now they want to change it because they no longer benefit.

Daniel you ignorant slut. You're comparing apples to oranges (again). If you had said it was "un-American" or "against our principles" I could have agreed with you. Instead you claimed it was "unjust" to make it difficult for a potentially good citizen to immigrate and you're wrong. How difficult or easy it is to immigrate is entirely up to the sovereignty of the particular nation, and it has nothing to do with justice.

By claiming it was unjust to make citizenship difficult to attain you implied that the United States has an obligation that it doesn't. It may be a damned stupid thing to keep out potentially great new citizens, it may be against our heritage, or it may be just plain mean- but it isn't un-fucking-just. Just as it isn't un-fucking-just for Canada or any other nation to dictate its immigration standards however it wishes to.

[Blazing247]

Daniel you ignorant slut. You're comparing apples to oranges (again). If you had said it was "un-American" or "against our principles" I could have agreed with you. Instead you claimed it was "unjust" to make it difficult for a potentially good citizen to immigrate and you're wrong. How difficult or easy it is to immigrate is entirely up to the sovereignty of the particular nation, and it has nothing to do with justice.

By claiming it was unjust to make citizenship difficult to attain you implied that the United States has an obligation that it doesn't. It may be a damned stupid thing to keep out potentially great new citizens, it may be against our heritage, or it may be just plain mean- but it isn't un-fucking-just. Just as it isn't un-fucking-just for Canada or any other nation to dictate its immigration standards however it wishes to.

Thanks Clove, that was pretty much my point and you probably summed it up better. It's not unjust because it's difficult- you aren't born with some God-given right to immigrate to America.

[TheEschaton]

I DID answer this question.

It is unjust because we believe in a free market system, which allows our corporations to seek foreign lands out, and can easily relocate to take advantage of low wages and ridiculous health standards. But then we go right around and don't allow the labor force to be free market, and allow workers to choose places with better wages and health conditions to work in.



I can't pretend to know the intricacies of the system, and neither do you, but I will assume they are overwhelmed and understaffed, and while idealistically it would be nice to just let every contributing candidate in, I don't think it's feasible. Maybe he didn't provide a service as in demand as another candidate? The fact is, he got his green card. I'm sure the system needs changing, but of all things, it certainly didn't treat him unjustly.

Funny, the bank (the same bank which hired him in 85) promoted him to CEO of one of the subsidiaries a couple years ago. Obviously he was a good enough candidate. My father's story is one of extreme luck (and for you religious types, blessings). Everyone else I know who came on a student visa technically broke the law by staying after their education, until they could obtain residency any other way.

Edited to add: Like Daniel said, a system which requires Congressional intervention on an individual basis to do something legally is inherently unjust.

The fact of the matter is, the lists are so long, so tied up in idiotic things like background checks, that you can't get permanent residency before your education ends. So, either you break the law, or you have to go home, OOOPS, then you're taken off the list for residency. That's the definition of bad, unjust law, when you HAVE to break it in order to meet the requirements for citizenship.

-TheE-

[Clove]

I DID answer this question.

It is unjust because we believe in a free market system, which allows our corporations to seek foreign lands out, and can easily relocate to take advantage of low wages and ridiculous health standards. But then we go right around and don't allow the labor force to be free market, and allow workers to choose places with better wages and health conditions to work in...

It's opportunistic but it isn't unjust. Because we build a factory in China doesn't mean we're obligated to allow a single Chinese the opportunity to become a United States citizen. I'm sorry. You're wrong. And for that matter other countries aren't obligated to let our corporations and businesses to operate on their soil either.

Much of the bullshit people are asked to go through to become citizens is pathetic. I can agree with that. My paths have crossed with plenty of people who have immigrated (legally) and I know a couple who are trying to immigrate now. It's always the same frustrating story.

My vote will always go to more liberal immigration policies with a streamlined process. However, a difficult or even impossible immigration process is not a shield to excuse illegal immigration.

Frustratingly difficult immigration processes are a bad idea; especially for us and it needs to be reviewed and overhauled- not because it's unjust but because I don't think it's what most Americans want. Either way a law, or policy, or procedure isn't unjust simply because you or I disagree with it. That is the attitude of children and tyrants.

[TheEschaton]

It's opportunistic but it isn't unjust. Because we build a factory in China doesn't mean we're obligated to allow a single Chinese the opportunity to become a United States citizen. I'm sorry. You're wrong. And for that matter other countries aren't obligated to let our corporations and businesses to operate on their soil either.

They are obligated when the World Bank and IMF forces free trade zones in countries. That's the point.

-TheE-

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. You're comparing apples to oranges (again). If you had said it was "un-American" or "against our principles" I could have agreed with you. Instead you claimed it was "unjust" to make it difficult for a potentially good citizen to immigrate and you're wrong. How difficult or easy it is to immigrate is entirely up to the sovereignty of the particular nation, and it has nothing to do with justice.

By claiming it was unjust to make citizenship difficult to attain you implied that the United States has an obligation that it doesn't. It may be a damned stupid thing to keep out potentially great new citizens, it may be against our heritage, or it may be just plain mean- but it isn't un-fucking-just. Just as it isn't un-fucking-just for Canada or any other nation to dictate its immigration standards however it wishes to.

You're a retard. Just as in the last thread you miss the point of the comparison. That doesn't somehow invalidate it or make it less true.

Tell me what the word "Justice" means then come and tell me that your values doesn't have hsit to do with how you define "Justice".

In this country we believe that every person has the *right* to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Anything that denies that *right* is unjust. Requiring people to jump through 1000000 loops just to have a chance at citizenship is a denial of that *right* and thus *unjust* and a violation of our *principles* as a country. It does not matter what Canada or North Korea does. This is about America and what we do.




We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.
...

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

[Daniel]

Thanks Clove, that was pretty much my point and you probably summed it up better. It's not unjust because it's difficult- you aren't born with some God-given right to immigrate to America.

But your grandparents were.

My point from the very beginning.

[Clove]

...That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness...

Daniel you ignorant slut. It is up to the governments of other countries to secure the rights of their people, not us.

As to ol' King George impairing immigration... well you do excel at uneven comparisons don't you? There is a difference between a sovereign that is dictating policies to colonists overseas and a self-governed nation dictating its own.


You're a retard. Just as in the last thread you miss the point of the comparison. That doesn't somehow invalidate it or make it less true.

I'm not missing any of your points, although I'm sure it would be easier for you if people didn't call you on your bullshit.


Tell me what the word "Justice" means then come and tell me that your values doesn't have hsit to do with how you define "Justice". I might if I knew what the hell you were trying to sizzle my nizzle.



In this country we believe that every person has the *right* to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Anything that denies that *right* is unjust. Requiring people to jump through 1000000 loops just to have a chance at citizenship is a denial of that *right* and thus *unjust* and a violation of our *principles* as a country. It does not matter what Canada or North Korea does. This is about America and what we do.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Claiming that attaining something will make you happy in no way obligates society to grant you access to it (if society believes it will cause harm for example) or make it easy for you to attain. It certainly isn't our obligation to guarantee those rights to the citizens of other countries.


Instead of being a drama queen and screaming about how unjust the polices are why don't you try pointing out the flaws of an excessively restrictive immigration policy and the benefits of a liberal one? Forming a cohesive argument could be a challenge for you, but with your excellent education and keen wit I'm confident you can manage it eventually.

[Clove]

They are obligated when the World Bank and IMF forces free trade zones in countries. That's the point.

-TheE-

And that's a fair point and an argument for immigration reform.

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. It is up to the governments of other countries to secure the rights of their people, not us.


How does this change the principle that America was founded on?

I'll save you the trouble it doesn't. America has always been considered the "Land of the free" where people can come to secure a brighter future for themselves free of persecution.

Although this has never been perfectly implemented. It is still what this country is based upon. Therefore, any laws that limit this are unjust according to the value system we subscribe to in America.



As to ol' King George impairing immigration... well you do excel at uneven comparisons don't you? There is a difference between a sovereign that is dictating policies to colonists overseas and a self-governed nation dictating its own.

I guess you don't understand the word "unalienable" either.



Instead of being a drama queen and screaming about how unjust the polices are, why don't you try pointing out the flaws of an excessively restrictive immigration policy and the benefits of a liberal one?

I have, on these very boards in the past. However, why would I spend time and effort on people like Blazing who just decide to lump all Immigrants into a single pool of worthlessness and people like you who mask their prejudices under "objectivity"?

I have better ways to waste my time. Thanks.

[Jorddyn]

I agree, wholeheartedly, that we need immigration reform in this country.

I think that we're going about it all wrong, however. Our war on drugs, our war on terrorism, our war on illegal immigrants - we always try to squelch the supply.

Why not instead try to eliminate (or severely reduce) the demand?

Severe penalties for companies and individuals who hire illegal immigrants. At least $10k per incident for each. An easier and better system of verifying identification of those who apply for jobs. The SSA running validation of employment on a more timely basis. Of course, our tax system is so screwy and complicated that this would most likely take a revamp of that, as well (which I agree it needs).

We also need a more liberal "guest worker" policy. Anyone who is a guest worker must be on the payroll, and not an independent contractor, and must pay into Social Security, with the knowledge that s/he would not receive benefits unless s/he became a citizen and remained in the country. The company s/he is working for must also provide insurance and worker's comp benefits as they would to any other employee, which would hopefully reduce medical expenses left unpaid by illegal immigrants and not encourage nor discourage hiring of guest workers over citizens.

After the above are implemented, and a 6 month grace period to issue guest worker visas, immediate deportation of anyone found to be in the country illegally. Anyone who has been convicted of a felony would be automatically rejected.

Our government must work with the Mexican government on deportation policy, and including immediate deportation of felons, with the incentive of the-more-you-help-us-the-more-guest-worker-visas-you-get. Any illegal immigrant that we deport is automatically black-listed from guest worker status, and may only return to the country under citizenship status.

Yea, that's about it for now.

Edited to add: Being born here only guarantees citizenship if at least one parent is a citizen, and may be applied retroactively.

Jorddyn, knows there are holes in her wonderful plan

[Clove]

I have, on these very boards in the past. However, why would I spend time and effort on people like Blazing who just decide to lump all Immigrants into a single pool of worthlessness and people like you who mask their prejudices under "objectivity"?

I have better ways to waste my time. Thanks.

Daniel you ignorant slut. Why doesn't it surprise me that you would consider putting forth an intelligent objective argument "a waste of time"

I'm not masking anything bullshit is bullshit and I'll call you on it.

[Clove]

...Why not instead try to eliminate (or severely reduce) the demand? Severe penalties for companies and individuals who hire illegal immigrants... We also need a more liberal "guest worker" policy... Our government must work with the Mexican government on deportation policy, and including immediate deportation of felons, with the incentive of the-more-you-help-us-the-more-guest-worker-visas-you-get...

Yes. Yes. Yes and Yes.

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. Why doesn't it surprise me that you would consider putting forth an intelligent objective argument "a waste of time"

I'm not masking anything bullshit is bullshit and I'll call you on it.

You haven't called me on shit.

The simple fact of the matter is that America has an *unique* ideology that promotes immigration and in fact, encourages it. Therefore, laws and positions that do not support those ideals are not consistent with American values. Since our laws are a by product of our values and beliefs, then any law that limits the principle of immigration is a violation of these ideals of justice, and thus unjust.

You're only talking point is that the same thing can not be said for Canada.

Thanks genius, but Canada does not subscribe to the same value system that we do and therefore it is an invalid comparison.

So, please. Go fuck yourself.

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. You're comparing apples to oranges (again). If you had said it was "un-American" or "against our principles" I could have agreed with you. Instead you claimed it was "unjust" to make it difficult for a potentially good citizen to immigrate and you're wrong. How difficult or easy it is to immigrate is entirely up to the sovereignty of the particular nation, and it has nothing to do with justice.

By claiming it was unjust to make citizenship difficult to attain you implied that the United States has an obligation that it doesn't. It may be a damned stupid thing to keep out potentially great new citizens, it may be against our heritage, or it may be just plain mean- but it isn't un-fucking-just. Just as it isn't un-fucking-just for Canada or any other nation to dictate its immigration standards however it wishes to.


Just to reiterate what you were saying in the first place and how bullshit it is.

If you don't understand the basis for the concept of "Justice", than fine. However, that doesn't say shit about me, nor does it imply an obligation my part to sit here and spoon you things that you wouldn't want to hear anyway.

[Latrinsorm]

It certainly isn't our obligation to guarantee those rights to the citizens of other countries.Well, not to the non-white ones, anyway.

[TheEschaton]

Edited to add: Being born here only guarantees citizenship if at least one parent is a citizen, and may be applied retroactively.

There's lots of ideas, some pretty wrong, and some decent ones, but this above statement is pure retarded.

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

But your grandparents were.

My point from the very beginning.

It was a LOT more difficult for people to immigrate into the U.S. at that point, and potentially deadly. Reread what I wrote, thanks. You keep quoting random things as if it proves something, but do a little research while you're at college. Give us your tired, your poor...that's a saying, not the reality. In reality, the US put many restrictions on who could immigrate. Asian? Forget it. Poor? Less than a dollar in your pocket? No thanks. Sick, or crazy? Get the hell out of here. That's right, you could be turned down just for being from a particular country. So again, is the system we have no perfect? No. Is it 1 billion times better than what we started with? Yes.

As for letting people immigrate freely from countries where our businesses have factories...that makes about -10 sense. I don't even see the connection between privately owned businesses and government controlled immigration, but I guess I'm missing something. Please enlighten.

One point you seem to be neglecting is that our economy and environment CANNOT SUPPORT everyone who wants to come here. If they open the flood gates, there will be some very serious results. What worked 40 years ago does not work today. I'm sorry, but the kind of system you are hoping for will never, ever happen.

[Clove]

You haven't called me on shit.

The simple fact of the matter is that America has an *unique* ideology that promotes immigration and in fact, encourages it. Therefore, laws and positions that do not support those ideals are not consistent with American values. Since our laws are a by product of our values and beliefs, then any law that limits the principle of immigration is a violation of these ideals of justice, and thus unjust.

You're only talking point is that the same thing can not be said for Canada.

Thanks genius, but Canada does not subscribe to the same value system that we do and therefore it is an invalid comparison.

So, please. Go fuck yourself.

Daniel you ignorant slut. My talking point isn't that the same cannot be said for Canada, my talking point is that all countries, including the United States determine their own immigration policies. How closed or open they are has nothing to do with justice.

We're not obligated to have an open unrestricted immigration policy because we are sovereign. Your absolute statements about the pursuit of happiness and immigration principles are simply asinine. Once again you're down to making clicking noises.

Your shrill screams about the unjustness of it all are particularly ironic since three of my neighbors (one next door) are legal immigrants. I won't tell you how many of my coworkers are. Apparently those fuckers are still getting here despite our most unjust precautions! My family immigrated three generations ago and my wife's family two (some parts one). My city has a good deal of immigrants many legal some illegal and the legals I know have no pity for the illegals regardless of how arduous the process is.

[TheEschaton]

As for letting people immigrate freely from countries where our businesses have factories...that makes about -10 sense. I don't even see the connection between privately owned businesses and government controlled immigration, but I guess I'm missing something. Please enlighten.

NAFTA was most certainly gov't legislation. The World Bank, the IMF (and even the UN to some extent) govern gov'ts, not private companies. It's just the legislation they pass allow private companies to do that.

Oh, and as for "not being able to handle it"....well, I suppose that would pursuade us to pursue REAL equity in the world, huh? Imagine that - us giving actual aid (instead of the billions we give for third world countries to pay back their debt to us and give tax breaks to our companies in their country) so that the average Mexican doesn't feel compelled to need to come here to get a job, because he can EARN a decent wage and living in Mexico, instead of being taken advantage of by American companies.

I'm just getting warmed up on the whole socialist thing in this thread, man, keep it coming...

-TheE-

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. My talking point isn't that the same cannot be said for Canada, my talking point is that all countries, including the United States determine their own immigration policies. How closed or open they are has nothing to do with justice.



All laws are held to the basic principle of justice. If you don't know this, then you are absolutely retarded.

[Warriorbird]

It was a LOT more difficult for people to immigrate into the U.S. at that point, and potentially deadly.
-Blazing247

:smirks: That's droll. It was a lot more difficult for people from SOME countries to immigrate into the U.S. at that point. Others? Not so much. It is still quite potentially deadly for many immigrants so that doesn't count. Oh no, your family had to come over on a boat! So did most everybody's who didn't walk across on a land bridge.

[TheEschaton]

It's always been very easy for European Christians to immigrate to the U.S. Everyone else it's very difficult.

As for the Irish being treated like shit when they get here - well, have you ever met a real Irishman? The only ones I've met are drunk, slobbering, and belligerent. The first two I can handle, but when you're an ugly drunk, that's a problem.

-TheE-

[Daniel]

It was a LOT more difficult for people to immigrate into the U.S. at that point, and potentially deadly.


How can you say it is not potentially deadly now, when you yourself said you'd be willing to go knock over water barrels? How does that even factor into the decision of whether or not it's right?




Reread what I wrote, thanks. You keep quoting random things as if it proves something, but do a little research while you're at college. Give us your tired, your poor...that's a saying, not the reality. In reality, the US put many restrictions on who could immigrate. Asian? Forget it. Poor? Less than a dollar in your pocket? No thanks. Sick, or crazy? Get the hell out of here. That's right, you could be turned down just for being from a particular country. So again, is the system we have no perfect? No. Is it 1 billion times better than what we started with? Yes.



Yea. You're right. If you were white, it was as simple as saying "Can I come to America". Less so if you weren't. See my original point? Immigration into this country was simple for your grandparents, and yet you want to make it hard for others. That's called hypocrisy.



As for letting people immigrate freely from countries where our businesses have factories...that makes about -10 sense. I don't even see the connection between privately owned businesses and government controlled immigration, but I guess I'm missing something. Please enlighten.

Yea, business does not happen in a vacuum. We have entire arms of the government whose sole job is to get US businesses into other countries and often times they are supported by the IMF (and less so) by the World Bank. If it were as simple as the free market operating it would be fine, but often than not we impose these things onto other countries. What you're missing is any sort of objective reality. If you took the time to learn the issues instead of being like ZOMG MEXICANS SUCK!!!! you'd know this.


One point you seem to be neglecting is that our economy and environment CANNOT SUPPORT everyone who wants to come here. If they open the flood gates, there will be some very serious results. What worked 40 years ago does not work today. I'm sorry, but the kind of system you are hoping for will never, ever happen.

Then maybe we shouldn't be pushing trade liberalization onto the rest of the world then.

[Clove]

It's always been very easy for European Christians to immigrate to the U.S. Everyone else it's very difficult.

As for the Irish being treated like shit when they get here - well, have you ever met a real Irishman? The only ones I've met are drunk, slobbering, and belligerent. The first two I can handle, but when you're an ugly drunk, that's a problem.

-TheE-

I have a coworker who immigrated here from Ireland. He used to give us problems until we learned his father was french-Canadian and his middle name is Pierre. It's hard to be Irish with a name like Pierre.

[Clove]

All laws are held to the basic principle of justice. If you don't know this, then you are absolutely retarded.

Daniel you ignorant slut. More specific qualities are required to make an immigration law just or unjust than how restrictive it is. You love to make clicking noises by speaking in the broadest absolutes possible. It just makes you sound like an ass.

[TheEschaton]

The Dan Akroyd thing is getting old.

[Daniel]

Daniel you ignorant slut. More specific qualities are required to make an immigration law just or unjust than how restrictive it is. You love to make clicking noises by speaking in the broadest absolutes possible. It just makes you sound like an ass.

Well, I'm glad you can finally admit that an immigration law can be unjust. At least you aren't completely stupid.

[Some Rogue]

As for the Irish being treated like shit when they get here - well, have you ever met a real Irishman? The only ones I've met are drunk, slobbering, and belligerent. The first two I can handle, but when you're an ugly drunk, that's a problem.

-TheE-

Stay classy you ignorant fuck.

[Clove]

The Dan Akroyd thing is getting old.

Can't beat a classic.

[Clove]

Well, I'm glad you can finally admit that an immigration law can be unjust. At least you aren't completely stupid.

As long as you're happy.

[Daniel]

Don't worry.

[Blazing247]

Oh, and as for "not being able to handle it"....well, I suppose that would pursuade us to pursue REAL equity in the world, huh? Imagine that - us giving actual aid (instead of the billions we give for third world countries to pay back their debt to us and give tax breaks to our companies in their country) so that the average Mexican doesn't feel compelled to need to come here to get a job, because he can EARN a decent wage and living in Mexico, instead of being taken advantage of by American companies.


-TheE-

Despite the actions of the White House for the last 30 some odd years, it is NOT our responsibility to create fairness in the world. Most of us have had enough of watching our tax dollars go to the monstrous nation-building, world policing foreign policy that has somehow become synonymous with the US in the last few decades. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the average quality of life or wage earned by a worker in Mexico. That's why I live, vote, and pay taxes in the United States. There's no point in arguing more, we don't see eye to eye. Unfortunately, you are quite in the minority with your stance on this issue so good luck in your campaigning to get your 2 billion family members over here.

[Daniel]

You just wait until Hispanic Americans have a majority stake in the voting process.

Oh....

[CrystalTears]

Yeah then we'll have the black people picking fruit instead. Asshole.

[Daniel]

Fuck that shit. You ain't taking me back!

[Back]

So let me understand this properly. The entire issue is one of economics. Yet the title of this thread is “Fucking Mexicans”?

Uh huh. Poor try.

Heres a plan. How about we buy Mexico and Canada. Like we bought the Louisianna Territory and Mexican Territory way back when. Then all the border we would need to worry about would be a tiny strip of land in Central America. And polar bears.

[CrystalTears]

How about we buy Mexico and Canada.
We don't want them.

Go back to sleep.

[Clove]

...Then all the border we would need to worry about would be a tiny strip of land in Central America. And polar bears...

Yeah but the polar bears aren't aboot to mow our lawns.


You just wait until Hispanic Americans have a majority stake in the voting process.

Oh....

Hispanic Americans are already a growing political power. Personally I'm rooting for a mandatory siesta.

[TheEschaton]

Despite the actions of the White House for the last 30 some odd years, it is NOT our responsibility to create fairness in the world.

Oddly enough, most of the world, the development of most philosophy, and the development of humanity itself seems to suggest that we are responsible for our fellow human beings. It's with the rise of me-first capitalism, primarily embodied in the U.S., where this idea fell out of favor, within the last 100 years. It, oddly enough, stemmed from our isolationist viewpoint.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Poor TheE.. he can't find a liberal enough country to live in. Boo hoo, even France found out that socialism sucks and is moving away from it.

You still have Cuba Comrade. I say try out the life there.

Name ONE country in the entire world where Socialism actually works... where there is no rich and poor.. everyone has the same and everything is hunky dorey. Just one. One lousy country out of hundreds. And please don't use a tiny country as an example.. because that would force me to make fun of you even more than normal.

Socialism/Liberalism/communism are great ideals... they really are. I would love to live in a world that everything is shared equally and there are no haves and have nots. But it's simply not based upon any real life experiences. Humans are animals... and that inbred instinct of greed and self indulgence is far too powerful for it to ever work in a country type setting.

It's never, ever worked.. ever.

[TheEschaton]

And therefore we should quit trying? I happen to be an optimist.


Pessimists settle for the system which is based on human vice, instead of human virtue.

[Latrinsorm]

Name ONE country in the entire world where Socialism actually worksThe United States of America. The rest of your post indicates a lack of understanding of socialism, hopefully my response has clarified the issue for you.

[Warriorbird]

America is a republic. A capitalist republic, none the less.

[Back]

The United States of America. The rest of your post indicates a lack of understanding of socialism, hopefully my response has clarified the issue for you.

Congrats, Latrin. Better answer than TheE’s.

[Clove]

I would have said Norway. The socialist programs here suck by and large.