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Andrath
06-27-2007, 01:36 AM
I really wanna know what everyone thinks about where GS is heading in the future...will simu just let it run and run devoting time and money to a game with a playerbase smaller than most free mmorpg's. We used to have thousands online, we lost so many at the gs4 switch...now inflation on everything in game because there arent enough people to produce enough of the nice items which are essential to characters in upper levels and when we get there everything is so fuckin crazy everyone is buying silvers online...i mean gimme a break, has it come to that? people are too lazy to hunt and search for themselves? If you can't devote much time then you wont be as rich or as high lvl tuff shit, but buying characters on ebay and silvers with simu's new advances with gui's HJ is going to go live and gemstone is going to be a thing of the past...why do they even still have cyberstrike and MO or herc i mean, are there enough people to devote attention to... I played DR during gs3 and it was ok, but I've heard they have mounts and a more modern experience system... I guess I'm worried gemstone has gone downhill so much that my fixation of addiction will be gone...*crys*

StrayRogue
06-27-2007, 01:42 AM
Man your post is so full of...well bullshit, that I'll take it one point at a time:

"We used to have thousands online, we lost so many at the gs4 switch"

Lol, we didn't lose loads at the GS4 switch. It's been a slow dwindling. For many years.

"now inflation on everything in game because there arent enough people to produce enough of the nice items which are essential to characters in upper levels"

There has always been inflation. There has always been overpriced items. Just because Sorrow was 75 million 5 years ago, does not mean that it was more easily attainable. At one point in GS's history 5 million was a LOT. A mil would sell for upwards of one hundred dollars. Silver are easier to come across now; hence the rise in costs.

And Wtf are you talking about high end items being created? People have never been able to create high end items save 10x stuff, which went away way before GS4. And god, no, they are not essential in the higher end. In fact the game is balanced for low end gear, so much so it encourages you not to use nice stuff.

Character sales/silver sales. Been happening forever.

Now. I do agree GS is dying a slow death. I see a lot of people who I started with are now selling up. Just look at the market place here. People are going, and I'm talking about the hardcore RP fans, the merchant whores and the power-levellers.

What will Simu do? Probably nothing they can do.

Stretch
06-27-2007, 01:48 AM
Gemstone will stay active so long as their are a couple thousand folks that remain subscribed.

As sad as it sounds, quitting was not an easy decision. I literally spent thousands of hours playing the game. In that time, I cultivated some real friendships, made a few bucks, and kept myself entertained/out of trouble.

I imagine there are a lot of people that fit one or all of those profiles. In the end, no one thing will kill Gemstone; it's the culmination of a bunch of things that have slowly but inexorably driven membership down over the past decade.

Normal week night population is probably what, around 400-500 now? You're looking at perhaps 7% annualized degradation. It's still profitable.

Khariz
06-27-2007, 01:53 AM
I'm having fun scooping up uber-quitters and preserving them. If/when folks wanna come back, I'mma let them.

Gan
06-27-2007, 07:53 AM
Not another 'demise of Gemstone' thread. :(

boooo

1 star.

Caede
06-27-2007, 09:55 AM
What happened to that Dragon-guy that was going to buy Gemstone? HE CAN SAVE US!

--
Caede

Satira
06-27-2007, 10:08 AM
The last two posts in this thread cracked me up.

beer
06-27-2007, 10:26 AM
GS isn't in much danger; it's a cash cow at this point for simu. big and loyal subscriber base, constantly shrinking overhead costs given the nature of the game, and it can be run by a mostly unpaid volunteer staff. they basically just need a small billing/cs/server staff to keep it going for a long, long time.

only real danger is if they overcapitalize for the HJ project and go bellyup. even then, they'd probably just sell off GS/DR and they'd keep going.

Deathravin
06-27-2007, 02:47 PM
This one is easy to forsee... (dates are all strictly in the mind of the poster)

Numbers will still continue to slowly decline (maybe 10-30 a month). Until...

Feburary 2008 - Hero's Journey goes into beta. Some beta users play GS on their off times or when they bring the HJ servers down. Numbers start going up as people get Simu subscriptions anxious to preview HJ and review Gemstone while they're waiting. Slowly new people come into GS, mainly curious about a taste at HJ.

August 2008 - Hero's Journey will come out of beta, and the servers come online.
- A gigantic flood of new blood comes into Simu. GS players flock to this new game, numbers go down to 200ish pre-HJ players per night. HJ players get curious about Gemstone and a few use their free month.

October 2008 - Noobs flock into GS, outnumbering older players 3 to 1 - numbers rebound in the first month to 5-600 a night. (200 of which are older players).
- People use their free month to explore and cause general havok.

Janurary 2009 - Simu institutes three things this month:
A) New Gemstone servers - seperate from the main server, each server has a max of 2000 people on it at once, and you can choose when you log in which one to select. You don't have to create a new character on the new server (at first).
B) Simu-Pass - similar to Sony's EQ/EQ2/Lineage etc pass, you pay an extra 10 dollars a month to play all games of Simu's at any time, you just can't have two characters on two games running at once.
C) one or two Gemstone: The Fallen servers - With the insurgence of new players, any player not wishing to participate in RP aspect of Gemstone, can play on these servers, but characters cannot intermix - you must start a new character.

March 2009 - Gemstone finds a huge new playerbase. Thousands per night play it, along with their new favorate MMO Hero's Journey. The additonal servers cause some problems, but generally are accepted (nobody wants 8000 people in Gemstone no matter how many a server can technically serve - the world just isn't big enough to absorb it).
People from GS play HJ sometimes and GS other times. New HJ blood, be they old GS players, or new people, do the same. Asshattery flourishes, and many noobs are slaughtered each night by angered older characters.


But that's only if Simu gets their act together. If they don't Gemstone just swells to 6k players per night. Older players leave as the server gets more and more bloated with noobs. Everything lags to hell and people just start playing HJ, turned off from Gemstone and it's asshattery. They use HJ as their new RP tool. Gemstone falls by the wayside, and into disrepair. More and more GMs are pulled from it to be put on HJ. Eventually in 2012, all the mud servers are disconnected and Simu is HJ onry.

Khariz
06-27-2007, 02:50 PM
I'd be okay with most of that.

The Ponzzz
06-27-2007, 02:57 PM
Jan '09 will never happen.

Drayal
06-27-2007, 03:04 PM
God this subject is overdone.
Tbh I don't really know how Simu has lasted this long.

Skeeter
06-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Or...

Hero's journey will never be released as a game.

Numbers will continue to dwindle on all Simu games.
Prices will rise and the hard core will continue to pay

eventually cost will outweigh profit and GS will shut down.

Blazing247
06-27-2007, 03:38 PM
God this subject is overdone.
Tbh I don't really know how Simu has lasted this long.

Agreed on the overdone part. Simu has lasted a long time by overcharging for their game while having relatively low cost of operation and maintenance.

Renian
06-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Gemstone will not die if Simu would just focus more on fun and less on game balance.

AKA More fun, less tedium.

Oh, and if they advertised, like they said they were going to this year.

Khariz
06-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Gemstone will not die if Simu would just focus more on fun and less on game balance.
word.

And I'm still scared of that avatar.

Blazing247
06-27-2007, 03:54 PM
Eh, I don't know that advertising will help. People who enjoy text-based games are fewer and fewer as time goes by. When I was a kid, a ton of people played pen and paper D&D. Looking at kids now, virtually none. As people leave Gemstone, it's very hard to replace them in such a niche market, especially when you are pricing yourself out of it.

The Ponzzz
06-27-2007, 03:58 PM
Eh, I don't know that advertising will help. People who enjoy text-based games are fewer and fewer as time goes by. When I was a kid, a ton of people played pen and paper D&D. Looking at kids now, virtually none. As people leave Gemstone, it's very hard to replace them in such a niche market, especially when you are pricing yourself out of it.


The hobby shops here have like 40-50 kids Table Topping from open til close on the weekends.

CrystalTears
06-27-2007, 04:00 PM
A good friend who works with me plays pen and paper roleplaying games every weekend. It's not as dead as you think.

Blazing247
06-27-2007, 04:01 PM
All the hobby shops nearby have closed down. I can think of one a bit away in a mall, that's about it. I guess I'm not in a hopping tabletop market. Also, it must be said that liking tabletop does not necessarily ensure liking text-based games like GS. I know I hated it originally, until I met a few good people. The draw of D&D for me was sitting around BSing, acting stupid, and having fun with friends. Then there was always that one guy who took it too seriously...lmao.

StrayRogue
06-27-2007, 04:17 PM
Tabletop is in sort of a flux at the moment. It was dying off a bit, but d20 really changed things. There are many, many independent RP companies around now, thanks to the internet. Some last, some don't.

The big buisness, it would seem, is in franchise conversions of names everyone knows: Conan, Star Wars, Starship Trooper, Cthulhu, etc. All these games are successful.

However with the death of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, many people in the industry are predicting another slow decline to the hobby.

Celephais
06-27-2007, 05:03 PM
The big buisness, it would seem, is in franchise conversions of names everyone knows: Conan, Star Wars, Starship Trooper, Cthulhu, etc. All these games are successful.

Call of Cthulhu was the fucking best tabletop... It didn't matter how experienced your character was, you could get laid out in no time. That one was pretty realistic about what type of punishment a human can actually withstand, and it made you careful/scared and roleplay more human. Elephant guns FTW! (Inspired my reading of the HP Lovecraft works... and many a handles/character names... including this one!)


However with the death of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, many people in the industry are predicting another slow decline to the hobby.

D&D magazines are gone? That's sad (Not like I've read one in years, but it's still sad)

TheEschaton
06-27-2007, 07:36 PM
yeah, I read that on rpgworld when I was reading my tri-weekly fix of OOTS.

-TheE-

Alfster
06-27-2007, 07:45 PM
eventually cost will outweigh profit and GS will shut down.

How many suicides will this cause?

30?

Danical
06-27-2007, 09:17 PM
Deadlands > all other paper and pencil RPGs.

I wasn't much of the fan of the D20 system for Deadlands.

One thing I don't like about the D20 system is that your character automatically gets better at combat when gaining levels.

Flurbins
06-27-2007, 10:02 PM
How's the gemstone D20 system coming along, anyway?

Ignot
06-27-2007, 10:31 PM
Man, you guys make me feel so less nerdy. Thank you.

Danical
06-27-2007, 11:17 PM
I put on my robe and wizard hat . . .

Shari
06-27-2007, 11:36 PM
vulvamancer has my new favorite avatar.

Renian
06-28-2007, 01:05 AM
How's the gemstone D20 system coming along, anyway?

As far as I know, cancelled. I was looking forward to it, too.

Slider
06-28-2007, 01:33 AM
How's the gemstone D20 system coming along, anyway?

I was thinking about the same thing the other day. It would be IMO a good idea for Simu to seriously consider just such a move. First it would be a fantastic tool for advertising GS4. Not too mention the potential to make a great deal of money off it. As well as quite possibly bringing a larger customer base into the game as well. (And as a bonus they will actually have some idea of what RP actually means.) There are many companies out there that are producing material for d20 that is less than steller (or just plain awfull) and yet still manages to sell.

And how hard would it be for the folks at Simu to compile all of the documentation that already exists, and send it off to the printer? All of it already exists, full color maps, history, a bestiary, all of it is already there. Most people that I know who do table top gaming are less concerned with mechanics (crunch) than they are with the the background and setting. And truth be told, the "official" game settings (Greyhawk/the Forgotten Realms)are getting old and tired. As an example the World of Khaas was released as a totally mechanics free, huge (over 800 pages!!) world book that got rave reviews, sold like mad (and at $70 bucks it wasn't cheap), and was almost emmediatly snapped up for conversion into a d20 game.

(http://www.worldofkhaas.com/ for those interested)

Truth be told I think it would be a good idea.

StrayRogue
06-28-2007, 02:17 AM
"Sold like mad" is an objective term.

As DnD legend Monte Cook once said, "If a d20 company puts out a book and sells N number of copies, Wizards of the Coast would sell N times 10 to 50 copies of that exact same book".

GS4 is not a massive market, not compared to the likes of Judge Dredd, Babylon 5, Star Wars etc.

Besides, the d20 era is coming to an end. With True20, SW Saga etc, you can tell it's going to be overhauled sometime in the next 5 years.

Drayal
06-28-2007, 02:17 AM
I just hope Jesus let's me be there to see Tsins players face when Simu announce they are shutting down and thank us for the years of friendship and business.
Silver selling for a dollar a mil during some mass panic, hoping to be sold to some goon who didn't hear the news. And showing once and for all that he is an eternal wanker.

Renian
06-28-2007, 12:40 PM
Simu itself will not shut down. Not with four companies (one big name) paying them royalties for HeroEngine.

The games, however, are a different story.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 09:55 AM
Hero's Engine is finished to the point where those 4 companies can start their game...

Hero's Journey will come out. It is a testiment to how disenchanted their playerbase is that some think it wont... But they've put in too much money, they're getting ready to move into a real office instead of that shantytown they have to trudge to every day now. Hero's Journey will get finished if for no other reason than that ancient proverb - throw money at the problem until it goes away. Simu has the money to throw now, and I could see it costing a lot more than they expect it to, but they've got the money to burn and no investors to tell them how to burn it.

I forsee them, after HJ is out, being able to... wait for it guys... hold your breath... PAY their GMs and GHs. Not much, but enough to make it worthwile. I could also see if this MMO takes off, which it probably will, the prices for their other games coming down to a more reasonable level.

I just wish to god they don't do 2 things: A) Never go public - shareholders would kill these games and B) Never accept a buyout bid from anybody - espeically sony, square enix, etc... I think (I HOPE) they have more sense than that...

I'll add the D20 game to the list of Simu-hyped things that never came true... Damn list is getting too big now...

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 10:54 AM
those glasses are so rose-colored I'm surprised you don't walk into walls.

HJ has been promised for 7ish years. Nothing to show but some fugly screenshots so far. Can't imagine why we're skeptical.

If you think the price of simu's games is ever going to be reduced you've not been paying attention to their business model for the last 13 years.

CrystalTears
06-29-2007, 10:59 AM
So you think the success of HJ will cause them to pay their GMs AND lower their game costs?

I'm trying really hard to not laugh.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 11:45 AM
How could Simu reduce the prices of their games to be competitive when they're losing more customers each day?

The problem with Simu is their lack of money. Think about it like this... Hero's Journey (think about this for all their games, and it still works) takes "X" man hours to produce and "Y" to keep running each year.
X = the size and complexity of the game / the number of people working on it (not linear, but still valid enough if you are organized)
Y = (the size and complexity of the updates + the number of special events + the number of fixes and patches) / the number of people working on it

The size and complexity of the updates and the number of special events are very very loosely determinated on how popular the game is, so how many customers they have.

The amount of money they have to spend = customers * monthly fee


So lets just put arbitrary numbers so you can understand this...
1,000,000 Customers = 50,000 man hours
0,500,000 Customers = 50,000 man hours
0,250,000 Customers = 50,000 man hours
0,100,000 Customers = 50,000 man hours
0,050,000 Customers = 45,000 man hours
0,010,000 Customers = 30,000 man hours

Once you hit a certain # of customers, the amount of WORK doesn't change, but the amount of Customers does. Ergo more customers = higher dollar per man hour worked = less price to customer.

We've not seen this in Simu because they've been trying to keep their head above water for 11 years. Only with them selling Hero's Engine have they been able to see what it is like to swim with the big fish for a change. If HJ is successful, the prices WILL drop... They HAVE to in order to be competive. HJ will not ship with any tiered pricing (MMOers hate it too much), it will be 15 dollars a month or less (probably with some promotion to get people in at 9.99 a month for life if they sign up in the first 30 days or something)... a couple years later they will have a cross-game system much like sony for 5 dollars more a month that you can play all their games (although not at the same times).

They aren't being competitive with MMORPGs right now because they don't have the number of players they need to BE competitive, and their MUDs dont really compete with MMORPGs currently. The people playing Gemstone and DR have played it forever and will play it until an MMORPG has half the complexity and RP abilities of those games.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 11:58 AM
This is all based off success of HJ. If HJ bombs, Simu goes under. That's a fact jack.

If they do things RIGHT instead of FAST, which seeing as the game has been in development for 7 years, and redeveloped completely from scratch (after making a development software from scratch) once already... It looks like they're doing things RIGHT. Hopefully the 'More fun, less tedium' doesn't go the way of Diablo II - D2 was all fun, very little tedium ... Just need to make sure more fun less tedium isn't "Redundant moderate fun, game itself becomes tedius"

CrystalTears
06-29-2007, 11:59 AM
I'm sorry if I've become too used to Simutronic business practices to believe that their graphic online game will succeed so well that it will improve all of their other games.

Since they don't promote or advertise anywhere near what their competition does, who is going to play it? Their current player base? The people who are disillusioned with them as it is and just trying it out because they don't want to walk away from their text character anytime soon.

HJ would have to be bigger and better than what is out there now to make it worth their time and money, imo. Unless they provide incentives to the current player base to try a new game, like a month free with subscription, they won't even try that, not when they have to pay for the game upfront to begin with.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 12:09 PM
They will do a month free for their current playerbase, and free closed beta for some of their playerbase (those that apply), free semi-open beta for all their current player base. Then open beta for at least a month.

HJ will be uber-hyped and marketed closer to launch.

As for who will pay for it... Bioware, and the other companies that bought Hero's Engine.

Hero's Engine will change the way MMOs are developed, I really believe that. Currently they're cranked out with little regard to realism, and no meat or substance. HJ will have substance, HJ will keep players interested. Unless they've been twiddling their thumbs for 7 years... Say what you want about simutronics - they can't keep to a timeframe, they are distracted easier than a little girl noticing a butterfly in the corner of her eye, and they promise more things that they didn't deliver on than Enron at the annual employee stockholder's meeting. But they are damn creative - they've come up with so many good ideas that it almost (ALMOST) lets us forget about all that other bullshit. Simu = Creativity.


And if anybody with clout in Simu is watching this... Please, oh please god... let us download the game for a much reduced price - I know it's a lot of bandwidth, but it will cost you less and show your players you are willing to cater to them. I understand 50 dollars for a box, disk, instruction manual. But the world is digital now, and I'd rather pay 20 dollars for a 4 hour download and download the manual etc than having to FIND a copy at EB or WalMart.

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 12:23 PM
I thought Makah was the only one left drinking the kool-aid. While your optimism is commendable your preception of reality is questionable.

CrystalTears
06-29-2007, 12:27 PM
Yeah right. Blizzard doesn't have reduced prices for their downloads and they most certainly can afford it.

I agree with Skeeter. It's nice to have optimism, but it's not grounded on reality.. especially Simu reality.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 12:30 PM
They obviously have an engine that is up to enough standard that others have given them real money for it.

Just in making and testing all the things for the engine, it would be hard to not 'accidently' make a full-service MMO by this point. The kool-aid is good, the arsenic makes it sweeter. My perception is all assuming one thing... Simu + 7 years focused on one goal + other companies FORCING them to finish the engine it all runs off of = A good, if not great game geared toward their bread and butter ... Role Players.

But like I said... If HJ fails, Simu fails, Gemstone falls.

I don't think Steph will let that happen.


Besides, think about it... A bunch of people flocking just to try out the game that don't have any experience with the empty promise nature of Simutronics Inc... a rebirth of loyal fans that are easily duped by tales of future updates and expansions... MUHAHAHAHAHA...

Augie
06-29-2007, 12:40 PM
Well considering they still have games like Alliance of Heros and Modus Operandi with like 30 active players in them, I can't see GemStone or DragonRealms shutting down anytime soon.

I have to agree with CT on trying not to laugh that you think they're going to pay GMs more, pay their GHs anything, and reduce prices.

There's no way in hell I can see that happening. We're already sucked in at the higher prices, why would they give anyone a break when we're already paying it? If anything, they'll probably raise the cost.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 01:04 PM
Because any MMO worth its salt has 3-5000 players per night PER SERVER with 8-20 servers, that's 24,000-100,000+ active players a night with at least 2x that in paying accounts. They're going to see Gemstone with it's 700 players per night and try to find a way to get that higher, there will be some curious MMOer spillover... But they won't continue to gouge their once-mighty flagship - a game that takes 1/10th the effort to produce and keep going with 2x-3x the prices of other competitor games. Which is also why I see them having one price for all their games - to keep happy the playerbase that kept them limping along for so long... not so much to get new blood into a game 95% of asshat MMOers won't look at twice.


It's all numbers, guys. and numbers are all relitive. Why gouge your 100% loyal fanbase and give your new customers a break?

Alfster
06-29-2007, 01:11 PM
Because any MMO worth its salt has 3-5000 players per night PER SERVER with 8-20 servers, that's 24,000-100,000+ active players a night with at least 2x that in paying accounts. They're going to see Gemstone with it's 700 players per night and try to find a way to get that higher, there will be some curious MMOer spillover... But they won't continue to gouge their once-mighty flagship - a game that takes 1/10th the effort to produce and keep going with 2x-3x the prices of other competitor games. Which is also why I see them having one price for all their games - to keep happy the playerbase that kept them limping along for so long... not so much to get new blood into a game 95% of asshat MMOers won't look at twice.


It's all numbers, guys. and numbers are all relitive. Why gouge your 100% loyal fanbase and give your new customers a break?

You really are the poster child for HJ....

You must enjoy being disappointed

CrystalTears
06-29-2007, 01:13 PM
It's all numbers, guys. and numbers are all relitive. Why gouge your 100% loyal fanbase and give your new customers a break?
:lol: Because that's how they've always operated. Did you just start playing yesterday?

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 01:17 PM
They haven't operated like that. They've consistantly gouged their playerbase across the board. They haven't gone to industry standard prices because they can't afford to - if they had gone to 10 dollars premium membership, 25 dollars platnium (no prime), like the rest of the planet, they would have gone under before Hero's Engine got off the ground. Numbers again. Numbers numbers numbers.


And I've been playing since the day the game went to AOL for free... as sorcerer... Still waiting for my 750....

I've left and come back many times over the years, all because of all the bullshit simu has given over the years. Every time I left, I've tried to make sure Simu knew why I left, and where they've gone wrong. But I recently got more of a taste of what they're going through (got a good job... and lets just say I understand now), and I get some of their previous decisions.

I see the dollar signs the CFO of Simutronics has been seeing for 12 years, and I get it. I can feel just where they're coming from - I don't forgive all the forgotten projects, all the empty promises, or all the years of over-paying an indy company to shit in my frosted flakes day after day. But I do understand it. The game (Gemstone) is good - the company sucks my left nut day after day after day after day. But I don't blame them for thier decisions, and I see this new venture as their savior. If I am wrong, I am wrong. If I am right, then we, constant players, will be rewarded for our loyalty.

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 01:23 PM
They haven't been developing HJ for 7 years. They developed 1 game called HJ for a few years and then scrapped it.

then they started a completely new game also called HJ. It will also fall so far behind the times that it also need to be scrapped.

CrystalTears
06-29-2007, 01:24 PM
My comment about starting yesterday was tongue in cheek, because you're reacting as though they've been so good to their customers and that now, all of a sudden because they have a weiner.. I mean winner... of a game on their hands that they'll suddenly change how they work. Frankly I don't see that happening.

You have tremendous faith in Simu and HJ. Kudos. I'll believe it when I see it.

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 01:37 PM
you said kudos. :lol:

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 01:45 PM
They developed HJ with an existing engine and realized that it couldn't do the things they wanted and needed to do with existing engines.

So they scrapped it and started making an engine. As they were developing the engine, they were refining parts of the game and slowly doing the things the new engine allowed them to do. The engine is just as modular as their games, it's not going anywhere. It will keep up with the times and do things no other game engine can do (real shading, etc).

I have faith in a good idea, product, and imagination. The fact that it's an MMO that promises to be more immersive than any other MMO ever I think will draw in players in droves. How many people play MUDs on the planet... how many people play MMOs on the planet... MMOs are where the money is at, and Simu has done really groundbraking and imaginative things with HJ. If it fails, Simu will have nobody to blame but themselves - if it dies, they will be the ones that killed it.

I've been watching the screenshots, the movies, the E3 videos, all of it. I've been keeping a very steady eye on its progress. I stand by my timeframe, and I stand by my predictions. It's just a game going where no game has gone before. And the length of development I think is a testiment to how immersive it will be. Either that or it will bust, simu go boom, engine will die, and in that senerio - I'll see you all on WOW - LOL

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 01:55 PM
would you like to wager some cash on your timeline?

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Wager some silver... say 2 million... on just the final, non-beta, official release date of the Hero's Journey being August 2008.

What am I betting against? That it won't come out? cause that doesn't work... Why not have a pool? pick a month/year it will be released on... winners split the pool. Buy in is 2mil...

- Ground rules - We're talking about the first day somebody can walk into a store (online or otherwise), never hearing of Simutronics before, pick up (or download) a copy of the game, pay Simutronics a monthly fee, get on a Hero's Journey server and create a character and play the game... Pool ends the day Simu officially releases a date for this to happen that is 3 months from the current date, no more bets taken... Pool is given out the day we can verify five people have done just that - played the game on a server while paying Simu for the experience with real money.

Celephais
06-29-2007, 02:19 PM
It will keep up with the times and do things no other game engine can do (real shading, etc).

What propaganda is that spew coming from

Skeeter
06-29-2007, 02:27 PM
dude I'll give you the entire year of 08. if it comes out in 08 you win. if it doesn't I win.

2 mill is fine. or cash equivalent

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 02:30 PM
http://www.play.net/playdotnet/platform/HENewFeatures2007.pdf
I think the shading came from...
http://www.tentonhammer.com/index.php?q=node/636
See how the shadows move in a way you would expect. Even on on avitars... Hmm that one was a bit small, I saw one that was better quality and a bit bigger that you could really see the shadows better. Think I remember somebody narrating it but a very similar demonstration. I can't remember where I found it though - took me a while to find that one...

LOL check this shit out... HJ version 0.000.00.01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWQfYqz6vT8

Celephais
06-29-2007, 02:57 PM
Oh okay... just semantics then, you're probably talking shadow volumes (I didn't go to any of your links), which any MMO could implement (HE might have a good performant implementation). Shaders are in plenty of MMOs.

Deathravin
06-29-2007, 06:42 PM
I was talking about clouds basically... if a cloud passes before the sun on earth, it makes a shadow... The shadow on the earth is hard enough to make, but the shadow effects your avitar in the same way... Same with if there's a dark alley behind a building. If you're sitting in a dark corner, your avitar isn't some shining Gandalf in a sea of darkness... You actually blend in with the shadows around you.

Alfster
06-29-2007, 09:10 PM
I was talking about clouds basically... if a cloud passes before the sun on earth, it makes a shadow...

Oh man, this will totally get people to buy their game!!!!@!~~~~!!~!~!~!

Makkah
06-29-2007, 09:24 PM
Oh man, this will totally get people to buy their game!!!!@!~~~~!!~!~!~!

You'd be surprised how insane people go over realism...

Alfster
06-29-2007, 09:57 PM
gameplay > realism

Makkah
06-29-2007, 10:21 PM
opinions, assholes, etc.

Andrath
06-30-2007, 12:59 AM
Yea I know that it's a widely discussed thats only because the people who have been playing for ages want it to survive HJ. I think that the flood of noobs will be a good thing in a way because it will expose people (those true RP'r and the non) what a real RPG is like. In my opinion GS is one of the greatest games I've ever played GUI/MUD console whatever else...the detail and intensity of this game overlaps the majority of RPG's everywhere. Me and a few friends actually do a few sessions of D&D also..GS wouldn't be the same as a d20. I do agree that Simu needs to concentration on fun not game balance and in the switch to GS4 when they gave a default number of stats points instead of allowing people to vary in stat allocation making each character more individual. That IS a major fetish simu seems to have is making everyone more equal combat-wise. I mean can anyone say what is the best character to create? special profession details have been slammed to hell and back too: Rogue's loose their massive DS drop by ambushing their target, clerics lose their ability to raise at 12 and exp meditation, wizard enchanting/charging caps, mana sharing i recently found out has been changed drastically to where there is no full share, armor penalties are going to come into play soon, cmans have been taken a notch down since they were intro'd now having cooldown times, LMAO the raging thrak isnt worth crap anymore but information, playershops killed the concept of auctioning constantly on the amunet and the opportunities to get the same items as other people for drastically lower prices, there are so many things people can go on forever about...simu should drop all games now except GS and DR after HJ goes live and the best idea i've heard is that a private millionaire party buys GS and has it ran as a solo game empire. I think we are missing thousands of D&D fans that would be hardcore GS addicts (Gemstoners as me and my friends say)lol..sorry to clutter the board with more nonsense but GS is almost dead and its so fucked up we dedicated players might be without it sooner than later...

Stunseed
06-30-2007, 01:11 AM
Lol @ block of text.

Paragraphs, plz.

Ignot
06-30-2007, 02:12 AM
Yeah i give up reading Andrath's comments. I really didn't care about HJ until I heard that a cloud can make shadows on the ground. I mean, holy shit dude! Shadows are awesome! I will gladly wait 10 years now for HJ to come out. WOO HOO CLOUDS!

StrayRogue
06-30-2007, 02:24 AM
Can't read past line four.

Artha
06-30-2007, 09:15 AM
I got to "Simu needs to concentration on fun".

GS'll be around until there aren't enough players to justify its existence...and considering like 10 people play MO, that'll probably be for a while.

Gan
06-30-2007, 09:28 AM
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/warf.gif

...

Back
06-30-2007, 09:30 AM
ESL?

Flurbins
06-30-2007, 09:42 AM
I was thinking about the same thing the other day. It would be IMO a good idea for Simu to seriously consider just such a move. First it would be a fantastic tool for advertising GS4. Not too mention the potential to make a great deal of money off it. As well as quite possibly bringing a larger customer base into the game as well. (And as a bonus they will actually have some idea of what RP actually means.) There are many companies out there that are producing material for d20 that is less than steller (or just plain awfull) and yet still manages to sell.

And how hard would it be for the folks at Simu to compile all of the documentation that already exists, and send it off to the printer? All of it already exists, full color maps, history, a bestiary, all of it is already there. Most people that I know who do table top gaming are less concerned with mechanics (crunch) than they are with the the background and setting. And truth be told, the "official" game settings (Greyhawk/the Forgotten Realms)are getting old and tired. As an example the World of Khaas was released as a totally mechanics free, huge (over 800 pages!!) world book that got rave reviews, sold like mad (and at $70 bucks it wasn't cheap), and was almost emmediatly snapped up for conversion into a d20 game.

(http://www.worldofkhaas.com/ for those interested)

Truth be told I think it would be a good idea.

They were doing this a few years ago, even had players volunteer to compile the information, had it all underway and everything. Then it just vanished, and nobody ever talked about it again, it was so weird how it went away.

Deathravin
06-30-2007, 10:00 AM
I was pretty pissed when GS4 gave generic stat allocation... I spent two weeks rolling up a 680 and a 674 for my characters when I made them...

Then everybody gets a 660 by default... BOO generic stat allocation... Yorray BEER!

But on the other hand I sort of like being able to fine-tune my stat allocation for maximum TP or max min/maxing, or anything in between.


At any rate, he made some decent points about where Simu has taken the fun out of GS3 when they did all the changes to GS4... But to be honest, from the day focused maelstrom came out, I used that to hunt - and I still use that to hunt...

Nothing has really changed for me other than my rogue can't get into Broken Lands, he can open lockless (now plated i guess but I found a lockless one on him when I re-activated my account... 2 year old box LOL musta been one of the last around...) boxes and even any box above his ability to pick. My sorcerer has a dumb teleporting ability but it still is a teleporting ability... My empath can sorta hunt sometimes...

It just feels like Simu, at least when it comes to Gemstone, likes to half-ass. We have 9 guilds, 3 with skills in them, We have a perpetually unfinished spell list, unbalance in the circes in general, two professions that have yet to be started that were promised to us four years ago...

The unfinished quality of the game drives me away, but the RP aspect I just flat out can't get anywhere else. I think I'll get it in HJ... Maybe I just hope I do... Hero's Journey is innovative in a lot of aspects, not just the realistic shadowing, read up on it - watch the videos on YouTube, I think you'll get excited about it too. (the cloud thing was an extremely small part of it that Celephais asked a question about.)

TheEschaton
06-30-2007, 10:10 AM
I got a 694 once. I was so flummoxed, I spent three days hung up in the mangler trying to figure out what I was gonna do with it. Made an awesome mutant bard out of it.

Then he was bumped down to 660, argh.

-TheE-

Latrinsorm
06-30-2007, 11:14 AM
I do agree that Simu needs to concentration on fun not game balance and in the switch to GS4 when they gave a default number of stats points instead of allowing people to vary in stat allocation making each character more individual.Having to sit around for hours (on average) to get the same number of stat points was in no way more fun. This is exactly the kind of change people are always demanding Simu make, for Pete's sake.
I mean can anyone say what is the best character to create?You're seriously talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. First you say that you want characters to be individualized, then you clamor for the days when every other character was a DES? That's hyperbole, of course, it was actually 2 out of every 3 characters.
special profession details have been slammed to hell and back tooIf you can't find any worthwhile difference between the professions, you're simply not looking or have been blinded by bitterness/nostalgia. (Exception: paladins are mediocre knockoffs of warriors, true.)
cmans have been taken a notch down since they were intro'd now having cooldown timesThe funny thing about this is berserk (one of the most useful CMANs around) used to have a cooldown timer, but doesn't anymore. Again, the CMAN system is exactly what you're asking for from Simu, but you focus on a downtweak to two (out of 48) maneuvers. You can't coherently want both worthwhile customization and an undeniable best.
playershops killed the concept of auctioning constantly on the amunet and the opportunities to get the same items as other people for drastically lower pricesSimu only gets half (or really 1/4) credit for this, but with playershops.com you can search everyone's inventory in the world instantly for exactly what you want. How can this possibly be construed as a bad thing?

Deathravin
07-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Maybe they should just make another Gemstone... Do everything right this time... Either have the a whole new game very Gemstone-like, or remake Gemstone properly - With Landing being a backwoods outpost instead of the hub of operations, all spells/skills/cms/professions/Everything implemented from the start...

StrayRogue
07-03-2007, 06:49 PM
Eh? So you want them to create a new game that is GS4 as it is...right now?

Isn't that...really fucking pointless?

Drayal
07-03-2007, 07:06 PM
A GS everyone will stick to and like won't happen now. They've made it clear not much their player base requests will come to be, just whatever they get around to. After years of random updates that won't help anyone or changes that screw everyone, it's pretty obvious a game which requires players to stay a long time to get anywhere isn't taking their loyalty seriously enough for them / us to feel we're actually getting somewhere.
This is a text game which gives serious penalties and hinderances other MMORPGs dont and doesn't reward you for slight playing time here and there.
There's probably not a moment Simu doesn't think about the threat of WoW.
Granted there's no RP anywhere else I know of..
But there's no mistaking text MMORPG is dying. And we're all expecting it.

Blazing247
07-03-2007, 08:23 PM
There's probably not a moment Simu doesn't think about the threat of WoW.



The threat of WoW is over. Over a million subscriber's lost in the last two months, depending on how you view the statistics. The next-gen MMORPG's are ready to be released Q4 07 and Q1 of 08, those are the real competition for HJ.

Celephais
07-03-2007, 09:27 PM
For those curious my calculations show that Simu has some 8,600 subscribers, I don't know how that breaks up as far as premium/character slots go.

... and my calculations included going to the billing history page and looking at the difference in invoice number from month to month, very scientific ;-) (but consistent... so I think there is some credence there)

Latrinsorm
07-03-2007, 10:12 PM
This is a text game which gives serious penalties and hinderances other MMORPGs dont and doesn't reward you for slight playing time here and there.XXX?

Artha
07-03-2007, 10:21 PM
XXX?
Still just a drop in the bucket when you consider that it takes at least two years of playing GS like it's your job to cap.

StrayRogue
07-04-2007, 01:22 AM
How is XXX a reward?

Latrinsorm
07-04-2007, 10:28 AM
Still just a drop in the bucket when you consider that it takes at least two years of playing GS like it's your job to cap.It takes significantly less time to get to where GS is fun. If you want to talk about end-game, it takes a solid decade to get to where you've maxxed all skills OMG SIMU SUX RITE? There are plenty of games around that can be finished in 20 hours, does GemStone really have to be one of them?
How is XXX a reward?It closes the percentage gap between power hunter and casual hunter significantly when the first 6 hours are worth 15. Compare a person who finishes off his or her character's XXX to a person who hunts his or her character 30 hours a week. In a non-XXX environment, the powerhunter gets 5x as much experience (ceteris paribus). With XXX, that number shrinks to 3x.

Artha
07-04-2007, 11:29 AM
There are plenty of games around that can be finished in 20 hours, does GemStone really have to be one of them?
That doesn't change the fact that there is virtually no reward for playing for a couple hours a day.

Latrinsorm
07-04-2007, 03:44 PM
There are in fact two (2) rewards:

MORE FUN

&

LESS TEDIUM!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Renian
07-04-2007, 06:24 PM
Has anyone else other than me noticed that while GS doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of updates and new features, DR is being utterly spammed with them?

LordBacl
07-05-2007, 01:08 AM
Has anyone else other than me noticed that while GS doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of updates and new features, DR is being utterly spammed with them?

Which has the larger player base these days? Dragonrealms or Gemstone?

Warriorbird
07-05-2007, 08:09 AM
DR's version of GS4 got pretty much cancelled at first. Seems like why.

grapedog
07-05-2007, 10:40 AM
If Gemstone can operate at $15+ a month right now for the basic account...I can't see them reducing prices when they get HJ and others up and running. I just hope they offer a combination at least for a little while so I can try HJ out...when it eventually comes out...if it does.

If they offer a HJ subscription plan, thats costs say $15, and $5-$10 extra a month to have an active Gemstone account, I'd probably be willing to pay that. Depends on how good HJ is...but I'll definately give it a shot.

I just hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with some weird ass $45 or $80 a month premium service. That kind of crap works with Gemstone, but I think it would signal a quick death to the likes of HJ where it's actually going to come under the microscope quickly and often, just like every other MMO has...

Alfster
07-05-2007, 10:54 AM
It's clear that they haven't managed to actually pay their employees for HJ, so expect the same bullshit with HJ as you get with GS.

http://www.play.net/hj/info/apply/worldgmreqs.asp

Level Builder GameMaster Position

Level Builders create worlds from the raw materials of the engine. Textures are their paint, polys their clay. If this sounds like you, then read on!

Simutronics is seeking highly motivated individuals who want to devote their talents and passion to developing the hottest MMPORG going. If you have level design skills or a strong aesthetic sense, then you might be perfect as a Level Builder. You can build a world without ever leaving your home, using one of the most sophisticated engines around!

The ideal candidate has experience with games, a good sense of color and contrast, is highly organized, team-oriented and has some experience in art programs like Adobe Photoshop, Autodesk 3ds Max, Bryce 3D, Poser, or level-building engines found in other games.

Our GameMaster positions are currently volunteer only, with chance of payment when the game goes live.

Skeeter
07-05-2007, 11:28 AM
LOL @ Chance of pay

Deathravin
07-05-2007, 11:40 AM
For those curious my calculations show that Simu has some 8,600 subscribers, I don't know how that breaks up as far as premium/character slots go.

Wow, that's anywhere from 130k a month to 250k a month... That's only 3 million a year max. Even if they spend 2/3rds of that on payroll... I don't know the exact number of employees they have, but I feel bad for them if there are any more than 50 workers (20 bucks an hour at 50 workers assuming a very large number of premium accounts).

No wonder HJ is taking so damn long. They're under staffed and under paid. Wonder if WOW only had 50 people working on it... somehow I doubt it.


If that billing # is even remotely accurate, they were sitting at just under 9700 subscribers between march and april of 2006.

1997 - 15-17,000 accounts
1998 - 20-23,000 accounts
1999 - 20-24,000 accounts
2000 - 19-21,000 accounts
2001 - 17-19,000 accounts
2002 - 16-18,000 accounts
2003 - 14-15,000 accounts
2004 - 13-15,000 accounts
2005 - 10-12,000 accounts
2006 - 09-10,000 accounts
2007 - 08-09,000 accounts


^^^^^^^^^^^ That's just looking at the billing history of the accounts I have access to. I have some pretty narly gaps, but that looks just about right. - In case anybody was curious.

P.S. I forgot that when they started out it was 9.95 + 1.00 for additonal characters... Now it's 14.95 + 2 dollars... that sucks...

Celephais
07-05-2007, 11:51 AM
Taken from Wiki:
Many video game publishers maintain in-house developers, or studios. The size of the teams varies depending on the games, but they can number from a few people to the dozens. In the case of MMORPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG) and the largest video games, the team size may number over 100.

And from the sound of it they've got content developers (artists) working for free over there. I don't think you need more than say 25 employees to get an MMO developed. Keep in mind that the HJ project I'm sure dipped into the coffers a bit to get off the ground, but the bioware licensing purchase more than likely made up for any costs to this point.

Blazing247
07-05-2007, 12:16 PM
It's almost like they want to go for the gusto, but don't want to put their necks on the line while they do it. They want the money that a successful MMORPG would bring in, but they don't want to risk their company by paying people to do it correctly in case it doesn't pan out. In my eyes, that's pretty lame. Cliche but, go hard or go home. If they can't take their own game seriously enough to hire the best people to make it the best possible product, why would anyone else take them seriously?

This is just typical Simutronics, IMO.

Celephais
07-05-2007, 12:26 PM
Go hard or go home works for a drinking motto... but not for a business that feeds your family and pays for your booze.

Deathravin
07-05-2007, 12:27 PM
Eh? So you want them to create a new game that is GS4 as it is...right now?

Isn't that...really fucking pointless?


I want them to FINISH a part of the game, THEN release it. (eg. Guilds, Spells, CMs, Skills, Societys, Houses, etc) Not halfass every single thing they do. They came out with Illusions pretty quick, why? Because 725 was coming out and they were FORCED to.

I want them to start from scratch and do things like the lore says it's supposed to be (eg. Landing being a backwoods outpost, not a metropolous and center for everything.)

I want them to make GS4, not GS3 + some fairly minor changes to leveling and CM skills.

I want them to push out releases like all the MMO games out there - one big sweeping update, not small bits an peices here and there.


Don't get me wrong, I like the small updates to things here and there. Small changes and fixes are part of any game... But I want them to fucking FINISH something goddamnit! ANYTHING. Just FINISH something... then goto something else that isn't finished and FINISH IT. Stop releasing bullshit here and there that we didn't want and fix the fucking game.

More Societies
Professional guilds w/ skills for all professions
Organized and somewhat balanced professions
Release Monk & Savant
Pro's & Houses the way they should be (why do we need both again?)
Finish the spell circles



I'm going to stop looking at GS threads, when I play the game I love it, but when I start thinking about how broken it is I get all emo about it and get pissed off.

grapedog
07-05-2007, 12:37 PM
not too nitpick, but if the Landing were turned into a backwoods outpost...and a whole bunch of people stuck around, wouldn't it evolve over time...cities and growth and all that...?

Maybe they should charge $50k every time you enter...that would kill the town pretty quick.

StrayRogue
07-05-2007, 12:41 PM
The problem's I found with GS weren't to do with the actual game, but the management and their attitudes towards certain players. The game itself was actually pretty good, save for the boredom factor and lack of reward.

Blazing247
07-05-2007, 01:05 PM
Go hard or go home works for a drinking motto... but not for a business that feeds your family and pays for your booze.

Are you saying that believing in your product and taking a chance are not the ideals to run a company on? Thankfully most entrepreneur's don't feel this way, or we'd have some pretty "so so" products.

Deathravin
07-05-2007, 01:40 PM
You really need a combination of both. I think they're almost at your "Go hard or go home" strategy with HJ. They're going for broke on HJ, expecting it not only to do well, but expecting it to save their company.

When you have employees involved, they may care for the business, but if you go under they are out on their ass - You need to consider them as well. When it's you and a partner with a kickass idea just trying to get on your feet, that's one thing - take some chances, be bold, be daring, what do you have to lose?

But when you're a has-been company trying to keep your employees families fed and in their houses; you need to be calculated, precise, and controlled in your decisions. You need to know all outcomes of a decision before you go there.

My CFO of my current job once told me; 'you should have no surprises, good or bad. If you do, you didn't think it through enough - Even positive surprises are bad. Plan for everything, be surprised about nothing.'

My problem with Simu is it seems they're flying off the seat of their pants all the time. They get destracted easily and are never on the ball.

Alfster
07-05-2007, 01:45 PM
My problem with Simu is it seems they're flying off the seat of their pants all the time. They get destracted easily and are never on the ball.

Probably because they go through employees so fast when their employees realize they're putting in 60+ hours a week for free.

CrystalTears
07-05-2007, 01:49 PM
What I find odd is that you get frustrated that they don't finish fixing things, yet you have all this faith and hope for their graphic game. Maybe I'm not following the logic. You don't think they'll follow the same pattern and never finish what they start?

Deathravin
07-05-2007, 02:13 PM
Ah, but there's two main differences. A) MMOers won't put up with a perpetually unfinished game (finished =/= unupdated btw) and B) they're starting from scratch.

I think the main reason Gemstone isn't finished, is because it's been so constantly (however half-assedly) updated. It's a huge patchwork quilt that has just been added to slowly over the years - you never want to take out those first panels and make a nice, organized, coherent blanket, you keep them in for nostalga. Landing is the center of commerse because it has the most hunting areas, its the largest town, and it was the first town created. It has all the houses (except one that I know of), and it was where everybody started in the game for 12 years...

They don't have that quilt idea for HJ. They get a chance to START with a finished game. They aren't going to make a backwoods outpost be the major center for commerce just because they decided to constantly add on to it slowly. They can start off with coherence, order, and organized logic. They start off with a game they expect 100,000 people to play, not them and their buddies playing it in their free time and only adding to it when it gets too small for the population. The creators didn't even expect anybody to get past level 20... They didn't forcee anybody taking that much time to get to level 300... They didn't build it to be around for 20 years.

But from what I've seen of HJ, they're actually doing things correct from day one. It's hard to have such a blatently unfinished and disorganized game in a graphical form. This quilt will have bigger squares, and hopefully be added on in a logical manner (patches and released expansions) rather than haphaseredly, (half-assed band-aids here and there that nobody will remove) and thrown together out of the need to quickly remedy a problem.

Deathravin
07-05-2007, 02:25 PM
What I find odd is that you get frustrated that they don't finish fixing things, yet you have all this faith and hope for their graphic game. Maybe I'm not following the logic. You don't think they'll follow the same pattern and never finish what they start?


Easier and far shorter answer...

Because if it isn't the utopia I envision, my favorate game and the company behind it are gone. It's as simple as that. If it isn't an organized, finished game when it ships. Simu goes belly up. I guess I just hope they have more sense than that.

Warriorbird
07-05-2007, 05:21 PM
Whatley can just license the Hero Engine as long as possible for cash and then find a bunch of other talented programmers to write him a game engine for next to nothing. Then he can license that too.

I don't think Hero's Journey's success determines Simu's. I don't think it will be tremendously successful however...and that's not due to anything other than marketing and distribution.

Artha
07-05-2007, 06:59 PM
What I find odd is that you get frustrated that they don't finish fixing things, yet you have all this faith and hope for their graphic game. Maybe I'm not following the logic. You don't think they'll follow the same pattern and never finish what they start?
It's an entirely different team of people who are working on HJ. They're getting paid real money, too, so they're not volunteers who get burned out.

Skeeter
07-05-2007, 10:50 PM
source?

Seriously, I've never heard that.

Makkah
07-05-2007, 11:53 PM
Well, semi-true. The people working on the CORE HJ shit are paid, yes. Most of the quest-builders and wyr-builders are still volunteer.

Warriorbird
07-06-2007, 08:13 AM
Which is why I said next to nothing rather than nothing.

cronuss
09-12-2007, 11:32 AM
That doesn't change the fact that there is virtually no reward for playing for a couple hours a day.

Except the following:

1) Fun
2) Escape
3) Roleplaying
4) Gaining a few thousand EXP, more with 3x
5) Fun


You don't have to gain a level every 3 days to have fun... in fact, this is what's great about GS. There's STUFF TO DO.

If you were to sign into WoW or another MMO you would have one option usually: grind more mobs.

In Gemstone, depending on your profession, there are tons of other fun things you can do, and just hanging around in the world is more fun than other MMOs as well.

Celephais
09-12-2007, 11:48 AM
if you had linked the fuckers ... they wouldn't have been bumped by anyone outside of complete morons. And yes, we have plenty of them on the forum, but the chances of them caring enough to follow the link and then bump is almost zilch. Again, historically, linked threads don't get bumped ... people comment and quote on the older thread within the newer thread.

You're right on one thing, it doesn't matter if I agree with you ... but it the likeliness of it happening was very ... I mean very .. slim.
:whistle:

CrystalTears
09-12-2007, 11:52 AM
*kicks Celephais* Don't get him started!

Celephais
09-12-2007, 12:06 PM
*kicks Celephais* Don't get him started!
The question is... if I linked to the post in question (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=620066#post620066) would he get started here... or there?

Edit: heh... sorry I couldn't resist... I don't know what I'm doing attempting to bait another discussion that'll surely have me wanting to put my head through my monitor. But we all know what winning internet arguements does to my penis, so I had to rub it in. (that's right, I said rub it in)