Woman dies in hospital ER unattended

[CrystalTears]

I didn't see this story mentioned here yet, and it's been going on for about a month now, which may cause the hospital to be shut down.

It's tragic what's going on. Heh, first thought was that GS empath players were working there as nurses. :tongue:

Tragic Catch-911 for dying woman (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-calls13jun13,0,4051842,full.story)

Upset she was not being treated at King-Harbor, two callers were told she could not be sent to another hospital.


By Charles Ornstein and Francisco Vara-Orta, Times Staff Writers
June 13, 2007

In the 40 minutes before a woman's death last month at Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital, two separate callers pleaded with 911 dispatchers to send help because the hospital staff was ignoring her as she writhed on the floor, according to audio recordings of the calls.

"My wife is dying and the nurses don't want to help her out," Jose Prado, the woman's boyfriend, told the 911 dispatcher through an interpreter.

He was calling from a pay phone outside the hospital, his tone increasingly desperate as he described how his 43-year-old girlfriend was spitting up blood.

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department dispatcher struggled to make sense of his predicament, then urged him to contact a doctor or nurse.

"Paramedics are not going to pick him up, or pick his wife up, from a hospital, because she's already at one," the dispatcher said.

Eight minutes later, an unidentified woman, apparently another patient, dialed 911 and reached a different dispatcher. After a short debate about whether the call was an emergency, the dispatcher scolded her and insisted that it was not. The 2 1/2 -minute call ended on a hostile note.

"May God strike you too for acting the way you just acted," the frustrated caller told the dispatcher, just before 2 a.m. on May 9.

"No. Negative ma'am, you're the one," the dispatcher responded before disconnecting.

The patient, Edith Isabel Rodriguez, was pronounced dead at 2:17 a.m., the victim of "inexcusable" indifference by staff at King-Harbor, county health officials later acknowledged.

Click the link above for the rest of the story.

[Ilvane]

That is totally outragous. It's amazing at how busy it can get at an ER, but there is no excuse as to why this woman who was coughing up blood couldn't have been treated there immediately.

No excuse at all.

Angela

[Sean of the Thread]

Just to play the flip side... there can always be an excuse as to why it happened.

[Alfster]

I'd say the 911 people did their jobs, the lady was already in a hospital...wtf are they suppose to do?

[Gan]

Just to play the flip side... there can always be an excuse as to why it happened.

There's no valid excuse, period, why over the span of 40 minutes with the onset of vomiting blood in an ED waiting room by a patient who's gone through the initial assessment upon registering and or triage.

It sounds like she had a disecting annuerism, but I'm not a nurse or physician.

This is a pretty clear case of negligence by the hospital staff based on my experience in working with hospital risk management, administration and patient throughput efforts, if the article is accurate in its reporting.

Even at the county level (Ben Taub) here in Houston the woman would have been thrown on a gurney and taken to a triage area/trauma room once she started vomiting blood. Survivability would have been another issue depending on what her problem was. However, she would not have died in the waiting room.

[Blazing247]

Having worked in an E.R. for a few years, I can quote you the exact reason they left her writhing at the main entrance.

"In the days leading up to her death, Rodriguez had sought care in the King-Harbor emergency room three times. Each time she was released <b>after receiving prescription drugs for pain</b>. On May 8, however, she did not leave the hospital but instead lay on the benches in front of its main entrance."

That sets off the "drug seeker" alarm in any triage nurse. Because people are triaged and admitted according to the severity of their ailment, it isn't uncommon for drug seekers to writhe in fake pain on the floor to up the ante. Not saying this is what occurred, and not excusing it, but it's a possibility this lady had a history of crying wolf. Also, it doesn't say if she was triaged, only that she was on the benches in front of the hospital.

With every immigrant using the E.R. as their primary care physician because they usually don't have health insurance, the wait is usually hours. If you ever have to go to an E.R., the magic words for instance entrance are "chest pain".

[Sean of the Thread]

I've seen that with my own eyes at least twenty times in my ER waits with probably eight instances in the same wait with one of those being a woman who was kicked out and returned after cutting herself with a box cutter. Amazing.

[CrystalTears]

So you're saying they can refuse her care, even though she was coughing up blood and the janitor just cleaning it up around her, just because in the past she was released with pain relievers?

[Atlanteax]

If she has a history of such drug addiction, I'd say that the hospital staff should be exonorated.

However, if it is true that she was spitting up blood and looking discolored (as opposed to "moaning and groaning"), staff should had intervened in some manner.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by DrunkSean
I've seen that with my own eyes at least twenty times in my ER waits with probably eight instances in the same wait with one of those being a woman who was kicked out and returned after cutting herself with a box cutter. Amazing.

What the hell are you doing in the ER so often...

[Katt]

I wonder if there is anything out there with more detail. They mentioned that they needed an interpreter. Wonder if it was on the dispatchers side or his.

Were they calling 911 because no one at the hospital could understand them?

I find it odd they called 911. You'd think they'd be up at the desk ranting and raving instead. Ok if they thought she was a druggy...but that's no exscuse if she is up at the desk coughing up blood infront of people who work there.


:wtf:

[DeV]

She died of something that could have been repaired. According to surgeons, easily. I don't find fault with the 911 dispatchers, but the hospital should be held accountable to some degree.

One of the dispatchers was being a real jerk off. I think he's been dealt with though.

[Blazing247]

So you're saying they can refuse her care, even though she was coughing up blood and the janitor just cleaning it up around her, just because in the past she was released with pain relievers?


No, an E.R. can't refuse anyone care, period. However, you are put in what is essentially a "secret queue" when you are triaged, depending on the severity of what's wrong. I am telling you flat out, in every hospital you will ever go to, if you have a history as a drug seeker for pain you will be very, very far down in that queue. This article doesn't mention if she was triaged, it doesn't mention who witnessed her throwing up blood other than a non medically trained janitor (was it blood in her mucous, was she vomiting coffee grounds and blood?, etc), it doesn't (and won't due to legality) mention her previous medical history, and a bunch of other unknowns.


I've seen people get turned away from drugs, go out, smoke a cigarette, turn around and come back in with a different "ailment". Like Sean2 said, I've seen them cut themselves, say they are going to kill themselves (the other magic words for instant entrance...to the psych hall), or go home and ingest a bottle of aspirin and some turpentine and come back in an ambulance.

All I'm saying is, you aren't a jury, so don't start handing out verdicts when you have exactly 1/3 the story. Put that bleeding heart away for a second until the facts are out.

[Gan]

So you're saying they can refuse her care, even though she was coughing up blood and the janitor just cleaning it up around her, just because in the past she was released with pain relievers?

Anyone requiring emergent medical treatment must be treated if they arrive at a hospital's emergency department, federal law.

http://www.emtala.com/

[Ilvane]

I don't care if the person was a drug addict(which she wasn't) or homeless or whatever..it doesn't matter.. Someone who is coughing up blood in an ER should not be left there and eventually die when she is in a facility.

That 9/11 operator should be fired too. It's not uncommon to need an interpreter, but if someone is coughing up blood they don't NEED an interpreter to know that person needed care.

That's disgusting no matter what way you slice it.

Angela

[CrystalTears]

I'm just saying, that if it was bullshit, it wouldn't be such a problem that they're considering closing the hospital down.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_6132668

[Katt]

I think all the blame lies in the hospital. The dispatcher had no idea what was going on and shouldn't have to if they are already at the hospital. They did what their job required of them. If they had called the hospital and tried to figure out what was going on it would have probably taken just as long to make sense of everything.

Meanwhile people with 'real' emergencies aren't getting their calls answered as quickly or someone who isn't even at a hospital is dying because the ambulence had to go treat someone already at a hospital.

Obviously this wasn't a real emergency it was a hospital not doing its job.

[Gan]

I'm just saying, that if it was bullshit, it wouldn't be such a problem that they're considering closing the hospital down.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_6132668

Yea, I read some of the previous issues the hospital had. Seems that ER wait time issues are no stranger to this facility.

[Sean of the Thread]

What the hell are you doing in the ER so often...

That twenty times or so was over three visits to the ER. *Wait times were 5-10 hours each.

[Sean of the Thread]

ER wait times are shit anywhere there are illegals wanting treatment. They flood the ER.

[Ilvane]

It's not just illegals either, it's all the uninsured who can't afford to go to a doctor and so show up at the ER with a cold.

Angela

[Sean of the Thread]

It's not just illegals either, it's all the uninsured who can't afford to go to a doctor and so show up at the ER with a cold.

Angela

Absolutely. Just happens that the majority are illegals here and in LA I'm sure.

[DeV]

I don't think she was an illegal immigrant. Doesn't add up... with the parole violation and such.

[Sean of the Thread]

I don't think anyone called her an illegal?

[Satira]

If she was coughing up blood there's no excuse for the hospital. I don't care if she had been in there every single day for two weeks, outright begging for drugs. If she really did started coughing up blood, they should have had her in a room immediately.

That one dispatcher came off as an asshole, but it could have just as easily been some overly worried caller, and they were already at the ER.

[DeV]

I don't think anyone called her an illegal?It's called preemptively weighing in on the subject.

[Davenshire]

I'd have to chime in agreeing with the wait and see bleeding hearts.

What the fuck is the boyfriend doing outside calling 911 if his wife/girlfriend is inside coughing up blood?

I really don't see fault with either of the 911 operators. the jackass should be taking care of any problems at the hospital with the staff, and not tying up emergency operators. Sitting outside yelling at someone over the phone is not somethign I would do if my girlfriend was dying inside.

It is rediculous how much of a problem it is getting to be in this country with people showing up at EMERGENCY ROOMS with the smallest of ailments. find a walk in clinic/ family doctor and take some stress off the already overworked staff in some of these big city locations. This lady if she was in real trouble, might not have been overlooked if she hadn't cried wolf in the past, or had 1,001 other people tying up nurses with the sniffles etc...

Granted the woman died. SHE WAS an emergency case. The hospital fucked up. I am sure someone somewhere down the line knew this woman to be a malingering whatever. Either that or they completely over looked-ignored/misdiagnosed her, to disasterous results.

Thats a tough call, and looks like they are going to get reamed for it. They fucked up.

SO a hospital might close? Congrats to all the ER abusers who brought on something like this. Now they can find the drunk med school drop out down the road with the rusty equipment, because thats one less hospital they can go to.

I wasn't there to see, I can't judge anyhitng other then all the BS media hype getting thrown around, so I'll reserve a final deicision based on the news (laugh the news!) I am sure some idiot reporter will throw out a bunch of baloney not having a clue to get everyone all worked up.) There are only a few scenarios that might have caused this though, and before everyone goes happy horse shit they should take that into consideration.

[CrystalTears]

Funny, I don't see other hospitals being threatened to close because they keep losing people in ER who are unattended. I really don't see any excuse to allow someone to throw up blood on their floor and not do something about it.

[DeV]

I hope they do everything in their power to keep the hospital open. I think it'd be disastrous to close down a much needed medical facility in an already low income inner city area where emergencies may be fairly commonplace.

[Sean of the Thread]

Agreed with Dev.

I am still going to wait until all the circumstances have been revealed before passing too much judgment.

[Gan]

Sucks that I'm of the same opinion that the 'bleeding hearts' are on this, simply because of the company I have to keep. ;)

That being said, if the report was accurate then it does look like there is culpability on the part of the hospital, regardless of her 'frequent flyer' status.

The sad part is that if this is the tipping block that causes the hospital to lose federal funding and medicare reimbursement then it will most likely shut down, even if its in an area where its needed the most.

We'll have to wait and see. Worse case scenario, the facility closes, and is then bought by a physician group and turned into an emergency clinic that can treat at least some of the area's sick. Thats providing the building is up to code for private ownership.

[Sean of the Thread]

If by report you mean that article..?? personally it looks very finite and incomplete. That article is hardly enough for me to come to the conclusion that the hospital needs to be closed.

As I first stated I was merely playing devil's advocate at this point.

[Tsa`ah]

The shame of all of this is that the hospital administration, all the way to the board, will never be recognized as the root of the incident.

[Gan]

The shame of all of this is that the hospital administration, all the way to the board, will never be recognized as the root of the incident.

/Agreed.

The fines that the hospital will incur will in no way affect the 'golden parachutes' the admin/execs and board memebers will get upon closing/selling of the hospital should it occurr. Not to mention that the ones who will feel the brunt of the punishment will be the triage staff managing the registration desk (along with the night charge RN).

[Blazing247]

I wasn't implying she was an illegal immigrant, I was simply stating why the inner-city E.R.'s are in such trouble. Most hospitals score very low on emergency room wait times on the Press-Ganey surveys, and a large part of this is due to uninsured (not just immigrants, but largely illegal immigrants) people using the E.R. as their primary point of care.

So you have a situation in which an E.R. can see the number of patients treated double from year to year, added on to the fact that the pool of RN's is incredibly shallow and nearly every hospital E.R. is horribly understaffed. In fact, many hospitals have let go many of their personnel and have contracted out large companies of "roving M.D.'s" who travel from hospital to hospital on a contract basis in order to cut cost and increase efficiency (aka, the Dr. gets paid on the number of patient's he sees in an hour, aka you are a number to him).

Again, we don't know the details, so let's not hang the hospital yet. As for the 911 dispatcher's, they were right on, although a little brunt. 911 is used for emergency situations only. What defines an emergency situation is debatable I guess, but a 911 dispatcher cannot, let me restate this, cannot dispatch paramedics and EMT response to a hospital. They probably had a tremendously difficult time even translating the call, let alone conveying the fact that there was nothing they could do. I've seen people call 911 because the hospital wouldn't let them go when they were on a medical hold and they didn't like their DR. This is nothing new. People need to stop using 911 improperly, because again, it affect's everyone elses call response time.

[Ignot]

Again, we don't know the details, so let's not hang the hospital yet.

She went to the hospital, bleed on the floor and died unattended. i don't need any details to know that the hospital fucked up. The sad part wasn't that she died it was that she died while nobody TRIED to save her. Dying on an ER bed is one thing, dying on the hospital floor is another.

And her past shouldn't determine if she gets care or not, IMO. Maybe the order in which she gets care, i can understand that but at some point between waiting and dying she needs to be seen.

[DeV]

Again, we don't know the details, so let's not hang the hospital yet. As for the 911 dispatcher's, they were right on, although a little brunt. 911 is used for emergency situations only. What defines an emergency situation is debatable I guess, but a 911 dispatcher cannot, let me restate this, cannot dispatch paramedics and EMT response to a hospital. They probably had a tremendously difficult time even translating the call, let alone conveying the fact that there was nothing they could do. I've seen people call 911 because the hospital wouldn't let them go when they were on a medical hold and they didn't like their DR. This is nothing new. People need to stop using 911 improperly, because again, it affect's everyone elses call response time.
While I also find no fault with the 911 dispatchers, the situation did most certainly garner being considered, at the very least, an emergency. As you've stated yourself, you don't know the details, so their reasoning for calling 911 due to a lack of response from hospital officials is understandable at least in my mind from the little we know. Perhaps it was prompted by a feeling of desperation, helplessness, what have you. I mean, if you can't count on the hospital to save your life, who the hell can you count on?

Though it may not have been the best recourse it showed that more one person deemed the sitation to be a dire one at the time.

[Skirmisher]

Things I do not know about this case from what I have read:

1- Did anyone alert the intake desk in the ER that the woman had vomited blood?

2- If so, how many, who and in what manner and language?

3- If so, how much longer did this woman have to wait until someone attended to her?

4- Why the male 911 operator was such an asshole when even if his initial confusion as to the nature of the call was understandable, his demeanor was not.

Although this looks horribly bad for the hospital and I would be surprised if they do not deserve the current public pounding they are recieving, the answers to the questions that come to me as my initial reaction could greatly temper the amount of outrage I would feel towards the hospital and its staff.

[Gan]

More history on the hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.-Harbor_Hospital

[CrystalTears]

1- Did anyone alert the intake desk in the ER that the woman had vomited blood?
"A staff member summoned by the police arrived with a wheelchair and rolled her into the emergency room. Among her belongings, one officer found her latest discharge slip from the hospital, which instructed her to "return to ER if nausea, vomit, more pain or any worse."

When the officers talked to the emergency room nurse, she "did not show any concern" for Rodriguez, the police report said. The report identifies the nurse as Linda Witland, but county officials confirmed that her name is Linda Ruttlen, who began working for the county in July 1992.

Ruttlen could not be reached for comment.

During that initial discussion with Ruttlen, Rodriguez slipped off her wheelchair onto the floor and curled into a fetal position, screaming in pain, the report said.

Ruttlen told her to "get off the floor and onto a chair," the police report said. Two officers and a different nurse helped her back to the wheelchair and brought her close to the reception counter, where a staff member asked her to remain seated."


2- If so, how many, who and in what manner and language? "When Rodriguez's boyfriend, Jose Prado, returned to the hospital after an errand and saw her on the floor, he alerted nurses and then called 911."


3- If so, how much longer did this woman have to wait until someone attended to her? They weren't planning on it, which is the problem.

"Prado then knocked on the door of the county police, near the emergency room, and said, "My girlfriend needs help and they don't want to help her," according to the police report. A sergeant told him to consult the medical staff, the report said. Minutes later, Prado came back to the sergeant and said, "They don't want to help her." Again, he was told to see the medical staff.

Within minutes, police began taking Rodriguez into custody. When they told Prado that there was a warrant for Rodriguez's arrest, he asked if she would get medical care wherever she was taken. They assured him that she would. He then kissed her and left, the police report said.

She was wheeled to the patrol vehicle and the door was opened so that she could get into the back. When officers asked her to get up, she did not respond. An officer tried to revive her with an ammonia inhalant, then checked for a pulse and found none. She died in the emergency room after resuscitation efforts failed."

Tale of last 90 minutes of woman's life (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-king20may20,0,1577522,full.story)


Although this looks horribly bad for the hospital and I would be surprised if they do not deserve the current public pounding they are recieving, the answers to the questions that come to me as my initial reaction could greatly temper the amount of outrage I would feel towards the hospital and its staff. I'd rather they not consider closing the hospital, as I'd hate to think of all the people who would have a harder time getting treatment by having to relocate to another facility. But something has to be done about the care given there, or lack thereof.

[Gan]

I'd rather they not consider closing the hospital, as I'd hate to think of all the people who would have a harder time getting treatment by having to relocate to another facility. But something has to be done about the care given there, or lack thereof.

It seems as if they treated her with complete disregard as a frequent flyer without regard to previously written discharge orders.

Charges of criminal negligence or at the very least depraved indifference come to mind.

You can start with the triage staff who camped her at a desk that later became unmanned, then work your way up through the ED supervisors (shift charge), department heads, house supervisors (nursing admin) and settle with hospital administrators. This pie is big enough for everyone to have a platefull.

What is sad is that the administrators, who are ultimately responsible for the direction of patient care at that facility are so far removed from the equation that the only way to impact them is to fine the hospital, in very large amounts, which in turn just negatively impacts the hospital financially which forces it into shutdown mode, hence the community suffers as the end result. I bet after dragging a few administrators through the criminal justice system as an example of what poor management and criminal neglect (resulting in death) at a hospital facility can do, it would wake up the world of hospital administration. Dont penalize the hospital, penalize the people who manage it poorly.

[Jazuela]

There are horror stories like that everywhere. Some not so lethal, but still ridiculous. A man I know had back surgery this past year, and was in physical rehab for a few weeks in the hospital, pumped up on pain meds during the recovery phase. One day, he had to go to the bathroom, and the nurse came to help him to the bathroom. Right after he had received his current does of narcotic pain meds. His chart had the notation that he was not to be left alone any time he was out of bed, with no exceptions. The nurse left him alone, and didn't even check in after a few minutes to help him back to bed. If she had, she would've found him face down on the floor of the bathroom, unconscious, because he wasn't able to sit on the toilet without assistance and had to try anyway because he -really- had to take a shit! He fell and cracked his spine where he had JUST received the surgery a few days prior. And he cracked another vertebra fer good measure. After the fall and before losing consciousness, he tried pulling on the cord that alerts the nurse's station that a patient requests help. No one came for 20 minutes. He had to have emergency back surgery, right after the initial one, and has been stuck wearing one of those big torso-sized plastic girdle-braces for amost 6 months now, as a result. He has a tough time getting around, but he's managing more or less, with a cane for support, which he didn't need before his first surgery to fuse 2 disks. The doctor tells him that IF he recovers, which is now only a distant possibility because of the unattended fall, it'll be at least 2 years. He's in his 60's, so those 2 years is a huge chunk of time for him.

Obviously he's suing the hospital, but no amount of money will get back those very precious 2 years, or the months upon months of excruciating pain he's had to endure up to this point.

[Misun]

I had a semi family member experience something similar just last year. He has been gaining weight over the past couple of years and as a result had numbness in his legs over a course of a few days. He has had previous back injury that he was only treat with pain pills for because he was uninsured. He didn't take them alot actually so he was not a candidate for a pain pill seeker. But this, coupled with depression over losing his job caused him to weigh in just near 600 pounds.

But what happened was when he felt this numbness, he went to the emergency room and was given pain medications and told to loose weight and dismissed. Two days later, he fell when he was trying to walk one day and called for an ambulance as he was not able to feel his legs anymore. Once again he was told to just lose weight and discharged.

The next day, he was unable to even move any part of his legs and some family members to him back in where he did complain of chest pains at this time. He was rushed in, checked over and placed immediately into surgery. Although he did fake the chest pain.

Ends up he had a disease that was causing something (I can't recall exactly what it is) to grow around his spine which was causing the numbness. Also, his weight was making his kidneys shut down and the doctor who treated him said it would have only been a week or two before he would have died. He was taken to another hospital and his mother is working to take action against the other one because they dismissed him based on his size.

He was in surgery for 8 hours and has since been receiving physical therapy and living in a nursing home because his is still unable to walk. He has lost a considerable amount of weight and has a much better outlook on life although he may never be able to fully walk again because he was not seen and treated in a timely manner. But moreso...he is happy to be alive and happy that he used the 'chest pain' as a reason to get treated.

It happens everywhere...to so many. Esspecially if you are uninsured. There is something very wrong with our system that these things happen.

[Blazing247]

There are a ton of bad nurses everywhere. I've had my own personal horror stories with family members having been in the hospital, and there are a few that I know better than to go to. They just had a discussion on the Sebastian show in CT yesterday about horror stories in hospitals, and just about every hospital in CT was named. However, until we resolve the immigrant and uninsured healthcare issue, closing down any hospital will be devestating to the community it serves.

I'm sticking to my gut reaction. I get the feeling that this lady was a drug seeker, and if so, you reap what you sow. That's why your parents read you the little boy who cried wolf story when you are young.

[CrystalTears]

So it's okay to discount that she actually HAD a problem and her hospital discharge slip stated to return to the hospital if vomitting occurred. She did and they rolled their eyes saying "her again". I'm sorry, drug user or not, and we don't know what she was going to be arrested for so assume away, but that doesn't mean you allow someone to die on your floor.

[Ilvane]

By November 2004, massive neighborhood resistance to the proposed closures (particularly the trauma center) had formed, led by U.S. Representative Maxine Waters and joined by the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Los Angeles Mayor James K. Hahn, actress Angela Bassett and children of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Despite the protests, negative media editorials and the near-unanimous opposition of city political leaders, the five-member Board of Supervisors elected to move forward with the closure by a vote of 4 to 0 with one abstention. A temporary restraining order was filed by a group of doctors and residents, but was denied and the closure was completed in early 2005. Patients that had normally gone to the King/Drew trauma center were dispersed among three other hospitals, both public and private (with county subsidy).

The move gained national attention after the Los Angeles Times ran a Pulitzer Prize-winning[1] five-part series reporting on "The Troubles at King/Drew". The series found that the problems at the hospital were far deeper than the public already knew and faulted the Board of Supervisors for shying away from making needed changes, often because of racial politics. Among the other findings was that King/Drew spent more per patient than any of the three other general hospitals run by Los Angeles County, the opposite of what many hospital supporters had assumed.

Sounds like people knew these issues were going on and they still didn't do much about it.

So, where is Jesse Jackson and brigade now?

Blazing, lets hope you never present to an ER like this woman did and have the same thing happen to you and your family. How would you feel if you were this woman's boyfriend/husband and you took her there expecting to get help and she wound up dying because of incompentency on the medical staff there? The nurse *should* have been fired that was in charge that night..the medical administrator should have been fired that night..there is no excuse why in this day and age people can not go to a hospital and get treated when they are lying on the floor coughing up blood..when she could have been saved otherwise.

I don't care if she's a drug user, homeless person, poor person, or whatever color they are..this should have never happened.

Angela

[Skirmisher]

CT, thanks for being less lazy than I and checking those things for me :)

It surely sounds like there must be a punishment levied upon the nurses or other staff in charge of intake that night as well as a punishment of upper management that allowed policy to be so lax as to allow such a tragedy to pass.

Of course the hospital should not be fined if that would only result in even less care for those most in need but policy and procedures need to be set into place so that if any staff members allow such a thing to happen again they can be held personally liable with relative ease.

This case in a way reminds me of what happened with Katrina. We tend in this country to always think that there is some sort of backup or authority that can come help in a true emergency. in Katrina that just seemed to disapear and here this poor family was allowed to suffer and all pleas to any authority seemed to fall on deaf ears.

The amount of frustration, hopelessness and anger that that poor woman and her family must have went through is staggering.

[Sean of the Thread]

Still waiting for the full report.

Well angela seems to know it all already.. maybe she can fill us in.

[CrystalTears]

Full report of what? Whether they close? Who was at fault? What kind of information are you waiting on?

[Celephais]

there is no excuse why in this day and age people can not go to a hospital and get treated ...

This kind of thing is what makes me not feel bad for what happened (or at least vindictive towards the hospital/admins). You seem to be responding like there is an unlimited supply of "medical care". Or that if the administrators weren't money grubbing there would be more medical attention available.

These are people in professions charged with handling people's lives, they have to make real world, non-emotion based decisions. They have to learn to triage (in a non-medical way) their work. If they for whatever reason, feel that their time would be better spent working on patient A instead of patient B, we have to respect their decision. If we start making them responsible for not treating a patient I don't see why any doctor would want to go into the profession. Any help they do give is better than them not helping at all.

People are going to die, and these people working at the hospital are doing their best to help those whom they can, there aren't any stories about the 50 or so patients who got treated while this one sat on the floor. It's sad, but it's life, and it's not a perfect world so we can't give everyone the attention they may need.

[DeV]

and these people working at the hospital are doing their best to help those whom they can,
In this particular case I have to disagree.

This hospital has a history of incompetence specifically having to do with their nursing staff. Doing their best, if that's what you want to call it, has not been cutting it for years.

[Sean of the Thread]

Full report of what? Whether they close? Who was at fault? What kind of information are you waiting on?

Uhm .. you've read a newspaper article and you're ready to pass the verdict.

I don't think I need to really explain where the problem lies with that.

[Ilvane]

See, Cephalis, read some of the information in the link Ganalon posted about the hospital and you can see it's happened numerous times there.

It's amazing that place was still operating with the amount of things that were documented happening there.

P.S. I'm an LPN myself, so while I'm not an RN if that had happened while I was on shift, I'd certainly have some serious explaining to do.

[Celephais]

I think the survivability rate of humans is far above what it used to be before organized medical care... seems to be cutting it to me.

I didn't do any looking into the "history of the hospital" and it verywell could be that this hospital isn't prioritizing correctly, but I don't want to set a precedent of hospitals being responsible (we sort of already have, but I don't think we should make it worse).

And we can all agree that this hospital being there is better than it not being there (the boyfriend might disagree, as she would be brought to another hospital... but from a societal standpoint of one dead vs thousands dead... I'll take the one).

[Sean of the Thread]

See, Cephalis, read some of the information in the link Ganalon posted about the hospital and you can see it's happened numerous times there.

It's amazing that place was still operating with the amount of things that were documented happening there.

So basically you don't know shit.

As usual.


Please list the full list of things that were documented there that helped you come to this decision oh wise one. I may be amazed as well.

[Ilvane]

Here's the link again that Ganalon posted in case you missed it, Sean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.-Harbor_Hospital

I'm sure you can read it for yourself and read the proof.

Have a nice day.

Angela

[Sean of the Thread]

Wow, that's a big number, no?

Angela

Here's the link again that Ganalon posted in case you missed it, Sean. Now get off of my ass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.-Harbor_Hospital

I didn't miss it. (yeah you just cited WIKIPEDIA as a legit source btw. HAHAHA.)

You're just clueless. You were spouting shit based on THIS single article...

Now go find an alter thread and stop being retarded in the grown up threads.

[Celephais]

in 2004 treated 11,000 inpatients and 167,000 outpatients.

I would call that list of fuck ups pretty short.

[CrystalTears]

The single article.. which is linked to all the newspaper stories. I'm not really sure what other information you are looking for, which is why I asked.

I guess by some of the reactions, one death on the floor of ER is not a big deal when they heal other people.

[DeV]

I didn't do any looking into the "history of the hospital" and it verywell could be that this hospital isn't prioritizing correctly, but I don't want to set a precedent of hospitals being responsible (we sort of already have, but I don't think we should make it worse). You don't even have to do any intensive searching when it comes to the faults of staff at this particular facility.

http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2006-09/25533285.PDF for one.


And we can all agree that this hospital being there is better than it not being there
We definitely agree there.

[Ilvane]

And Sean, you call me dumb? Here you go. You are probably going to have to go to the Wikipedia links to get it to click through for you, but here are the articles.

Notes and references
^ a b c Susannah Rosenblatt, Former King/Drew scales down to smallest size, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b c Charles Ornstein, How King-Harbor has stayed alive, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007
^ a b c Charles Ornstein and Robert J. Lopez, King-Harbor ordered to fix problems or else, Los Angeles Times, June 8, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt, Hospital could lose 250 resident positions, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b Susannah Rosenblatt, Medical school to sue L.A. County, Los Angeles Times, March 7, 2007.
^ Rich Connell and Susannah Rosenblatt, King status reports were upbeat, Los Angeles Times, June 9, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein, Tale of last 90 minutes of woman's life, Los Angeles Times, May 20, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein and Francisco Vara-Orta, Tragic Catch-911 for dying woman, Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007.
^ Celeste Fremon, Escaping With His Life, LA Weekly, May 23, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt and Rich Connell, King-Harbor medical chief is ousted; nursing woes are disclosed, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007.
^ Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007
Charles Ornstein et al, King/Drew Fallout Is Keenly Felt, The Los Angeles Times, September 26, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Deborah Schoch, Hospital Backers Concede Choices Tough, The Los Angeles Times, September 24, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, King/Drew Fails Final U.S. Test, The Los Angeles Times, September 23, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Killer King on KCRW, LA Observed, August 17, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, Another Fatal Failure at King/Drew, The Los Angeles Times, April 12, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, 3 King/Drew Deaths Blamed on Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, April 6, 2005 , Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber et al, The Troubles at King/Drew (5 part series), The Los Angeles Times, December 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong, Judge Denies Bid to Halt Trauma Unit's Closure, The Los Angeles Times, December 3, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Blame for Killer King, LA Observed, December 9, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg and Jack Leonard, King/Drew's Trauma Unit Ordered Shut, The Los Angeles Times, November 24, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jack Leonard, Closure of King/Drew Unit Likely, The Los Angeles Times, November 22, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong et al, Waters at Center Stage in King/Drew Drama, The Los Angeles Times, November 17, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg et al, Reaction to King/Drew Plan Loud and Clear, The Los Angeles Times, November 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein et al, A Reeling King/Drew Receives Huge Blow, The Los Angeles Times, September 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, King/Drew to Shut Down Trauma Unit, The Los Angeles Times, September 13, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, Report Assails Hospital Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, January 30, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.

[Sean of the Thread]

Oh I didn't say it didn't bother me. I think it's a tragic loss.

I'm only commenting on the lynch mob mentality of some folks who read a NEWSPAPER ARTICLE.. more than likely written by a douche.. that are ready to condemn the place.

[Sean of the Thread]

And Sean, you call me dumb? Here you go. You are probably going to have to go to the Wikipedia links to get it to click through for you, but here are the articles.

Notes and references
^ a b c Susannah Rosenblatt, Former King/Drew scales down to smallest size, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b c Charles Ornstein, How King-Harbor has stayed alive, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007
^ a b c Charles Ornstein and Robert J. Lopez, King-Harbor ordered to fix problems or else, Los Angeles Times, June 8, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt, Hospital could lose 250 resident positions, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b Susannah Rosenblatt, Medical school to sue L.A. County, Los Angeles Times, March 7, 2007.
^ Rich Connell and Susannah Rosenblatt, King status reports were upbeat, Los Angeles Times, June 9, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein, Tale of last 90 minutes of woman's life, Los Angeles Times, May 20, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein and Francisco Vara-Orta, Tragic Catch-911 for dying woman, Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007.
^ Celeste Fremon, Escaping With His Life, LA Weekly, May 23, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt and Rich Connell, King-Harbor medical chief is ousted; nursing woes are disclosed, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007.
^ Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007
Charles Ornstein et al, King/Drew Fallout Is Keenly Felt, The Los Angeles Times, September 26, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Deborah Schoch, Hospital Backers Concede Choices Tough, The Los Angeles Times, September 24, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, King/Drew Fails Final U.S. Test, The Los Angeles Times, September 23, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Killer King on KCRW, LA Observed, August 17, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, Another Fatal Failure at King/Drew, The Los Angeles Times, April 12, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, 3 King/Drew Deaths Blamed on Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, April 6, 2005 , Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber et al, The Troubles at King/Drew (5 part series), The Los Angeles Times, December 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong, Judge Denies Bid to Halt Trauma Unit's Closure, The Los Angeles Times, December 3, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Blame for Killer King, LA Observed, December 9, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg and Jack Leonard, King/Drew's Trauma Unit Ordered Shut, The Los Angeles Times, November 24, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jack Leonard, Closure of King/Drew Unit Likely, The Los Angeles Times, November 22, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong et al, Waters at Center Stage in King/Drew Drama, The Los Angeles Times, November 17, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg et al, Reaction to King/Drew Plan Loud and Clear, The Los Angeles Times, November 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein et al, A Reeling King/Drew Receives Huge Blow, The Los Angeles Times, September 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, King/Drew to Shut Down Trauma Unit, The Los Angeles Times, September 13, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, Report Assails Hospital Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, January 30, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.

I'll repeat it since you're unable to comprehend a first reading.. Wikipedia is not a valid source.

Next I'll ask you to look up the same statistics for every other hospital in the US and break it down for us. I'll give you six months since I'm sure you'll be busy singing into a webcam or something else worthwhile.

Finally.. stop pretending and stay out of the grown up threads.

P.s. I never called you "dumb". I merely pointed out that you're stupid. (again)

[Sean of the Thread]

And we can all agree that this hospital being there is better than it not being there

Absolutely.

[Celephais]

And Sean, you call me dumb? Here you go. You are probably going to have to go to the Wikipedia links to get it to click through for you, but here are the articles.

Notes and references
^ a b c Susannah Rosenblatt, Former King/Drew scales down to smallest size, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b c Charles Ornstein, How King-Harbor has stayed alive, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007
^ a b c Charles Ornstein and Robert J. Lopez, King-Harbor ordered to fix problems or else, Los Angeles Times, June 8, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt, Hospital could lose 250 resident positions, Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2007.
^ a b Susannah Rosenblatt, Medical school to sue L.A. County, Los Angeles Times, March 7, 2007.
^ Rich Connell and Susannah Rosenblatt, King status reports were upbeat, Los Angeles Times, June 9, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein, Tale of last 90 minutes of woman's life, Los Angeles Times, May 20, 2007.
^ Charles Ornstein and Francisco Vara-Orta, Tragic Catch-911 for dying woman, Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007.
^ Celeste Fremon, Escaping With His Life, LA Weekly, May 23, 2007.
^ Susannah Rosenblatt and Rich Connell, King-Harbor medical chief is ousted; nursing woes are disclosed, Los Angeles Times, June 12, 2007.
^ Los Angeles Times, June 13, 2007
Charles Ornstein et al, King/Drew Fallout Is Keenly Felt, The Los Angeles Times, September 26, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Deborah Schoch, Hospital Backers Concede Choices Tough, The Los Angeles Times, September 24, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, King/Drew Fails Final U.S. Test, The Los Angeles Times, September 23, 2006, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Killer King on KCRW, LA Observed, August 17, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, Another Fatal Failure at King/Drew, The Los Angeles Times, April 12, 2005, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, 3 King/Drew Deaths Blamed on Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, April 6, 2005 , Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber et al, The Troubles at King/Drew (5 part series), The Los Angeles Times, December 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong, Judge Denies Bid to Halt Trauma Unit's Closure, The Los Angeles Times, December 3, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Kevin Roderick, Blame for Killer King, LA Observed, December 9, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg and Jack Leonard, King/Drew's Trauma Unit Ordered Shut, The Los Angeles Times, November 24, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jack Leonard, Closure of King/Drew Unit Likely, The Los Angeles Times, November 22, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Jia-Rui Chong et al, Waters at Center Stage in King/Drew Drama, The Los Angeles Times, November 17, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Mitchell Landsberg et al, Reaction to King/Drew Plan Loud and Clear, The Los Angeles Times, November 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein et al, A Reeling King/Drew Receives Huge Blow, The Los Angeles Times, September 16, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Tracy Weber and Charles Ornstein, King/Drew to Shut Down Trauma Unit, The Los Angeles Times, September 13, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.
Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, Report Assails Hospital Lapses, The Los Angeles Times, January 30, 2004, Accessed Sept. 26, 2006.

Just thought I would point that out...

[DeV]

Someone has some massive editing to do on Wikipedia. There are now tons of newpapers that have picked up this story alone since it hit the national spotlight.

Anyway, for me, it's not about the hospital closing and it sucks that people are thinking in that direction. The focus should be on those responsible for emergency patient care that day for starters.

[Ilvane]

Exactly, I'm not saying close the hospital either. It's a matter of getting good staff and quality care in that facility because they obviously need a good rehaul of the place considering how many times things have happened there.

Angela

P.S. The Los Angeles Times seems like a rational source to me, considering it's a local paper for the hospital. I'm sorry if you don't feel it's sufficient, but it seems to have a great deal of information on the story, and the hospital now and in the past.

[Celephais]

How do you know it's staff and quality of care? It could just be the process they have in place that attempts to free up more time for the staff to be working on quality care than spending time figuring out where that care should be.

It really sounds to me like a matter of process than a matter of skill. Maybe the process allows for them to treat ten times the patients because they don't spend as long figuring out who to treat, and because of it they can't get to someone who needs help urgently once a year, but also because of it, they get to save the life of a hundred more who wouldn't have gotten seen in time.

There are a TON of details we're just not privy too, and we're in no position to judge, it's possible the hospital is losing money because they're spending too much time working on free ER care... they might have such a flood of work they need to hire anyone they can get, it doesn't seem unreasonable considering the 40+ resignations/firings they had, but I wouldn't blame the admins for that, so they hired less than stellar doctors, those same doctors might have saved more lives that wouldn't have been saved if they weren't hired.

I think the apropriate measures will be taken without the influence of any sort of media/public outcry... the outcry just means that measures more drastic than needed will likely be taken, and in all likelyhood more lives will not be saved because of those measures.

[CrystalTears]

How do you know it's staff and quality of care? It could just be the process they have in place that attempts to free up more time for the staff to be working on quality care than spending time figuring out where that care should be.
Yeah, which is managed by staff. It's still a staff issue, whether it be from the janitor to the administrator.

[Celephais]

Yeah, which is managed by staff. It's still a staff issue, whether it be from the janitor to the administrator.

If the process is causing more lives to be saved than it lets rot on the floor, I'd still call that a good process, and the place shouldn't need to be re-staffed.

[CrystalTears]

And I just completely disagree that ANY person being left on the floor to die means that nothing needs to change, when there have been incidences of negligence in other areas as well.

[Blazing247]

Listen, if I sound indifferent, it's because I am. This country is losing it's sense of accountability and it's disgusting. If you buck the system 9 times out of 10, and that 10th time you REALLY, actually, truthfully need help, go fuck yourself you piece of shit. I have absolutely no sympathy IF, and that's an unknown, this lady fucked around for years to get free drugs from my tax money and then got nothing when she really needed it.

Accountability. Taking responsibility for your actions. Look at Katrina, probably the most clear cut failure of self-reliance this country has ever seen, and it's the goddamn soapbox for every bleeding heart out there to stand on to cry their little frail heart out on. People bitch about how this, that and the other thing isn't fair, it's biased, where was my help when I needed it...how about help goes to those who aren't scumbags first, or help goes to those who are willing to help themselves?

Bottom line: if you fuck with people, if you fuck with the system, I have no sympathy when you get what is coming to you. On that note, I have no idea what this lady did to have a warrant for her, or how many times she sought drugs at the hospital, but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say she was a system bucker. Boo, fucking, hoo, pardon me if I don't lose a night of sleep over it Ilvane. By the way, what nursing home do you work at?

[DeV]

and the place shouldn't need to be re-staffed.

"Forty-seven percent of 285 licensed vocational nurses failed to pass detailed skills tests on the first try, he reported. After several attempts, most passed, he wrote. Those who did not pass “were removed from patient assignment.” More than 40% of certified nurse assistants did not pass their first skills test, though “virtually all” passed after additional training, he said."

Adequate training certainly seemed to be an issue at some point.

[Ignot]

I used to recruit and staff nurses and let me tell you there are some really bad nurses out there. I had one nurse tie up a kid because he wouldnt stay in bed. He tied the kid up to a pole!! The worse part isnt that fact that the facility called me at 3:00 in the morning it was that they were okay with keeping the nurse there and even staffed him for more shifts!

We decided to fire him and we fired ALOT of nurses for stealing drugs from hospitals. Seriously, we had about 400+ nurses on our roster and there were only about 10 i can think of off the top of my head I would want working on me if something happened.

Fuck i hated that job. That is all.

[Skirmisher]

...
It's sad, but it's life, and it's not a perfect world so we can't give everyone the attention they may need.

There is a HUGE gulf between a perfect world and allowing a woman throwing up blood to die unattended inside the hospital and one where i'm pretty sure a great deal of improvement t can be made.

[Blazing247]

I guess it's difficult to understand how people can become indifferent to someone flailing around on the floor, but it happens. You won't ever understand it until you've worked around it for years. It has still yet to be determined if she was a "regular" (you know the people that everyone in the E.R. know, the homeless who crash there on a cold night with tummy aches, the ETOH who crash there to sober up from their .53 BAC, etc). This, IMO, makes a world of difference.

[Gan]

I'll repeat it since you're unable to comprehend a first reading.. Wikipedia is not a valid source.

I consider Wikipedia a clearing house for data on particular subjects backed up by references from valid sources. Thats why I referenced it.


I would call that list of fuck ups pretty short.
Actually, per volume per facility, the hospital has very little in patient volume for inpatient treatment.

Here's a few sources for hospital statistics:
http://www.thirdwaveresearch.com/aha_wizard/default.aspx
www.aha.org (http://www.aha.org)
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/hospitals/state_dir.htm
www.ihi.org (http://www.ihi.org)




Anyway, for me, it's not about the hospital closing and it sucks that people are thinking in that direction. The focus should be on those responsible for emergency patient care that day for starters.
/agree


Yeah, which is managed by staff. It's still a staff issue, whether it be from the janitor to the administrator.
/agree (staff/management issue)


Listen, if I sound indifferent, it's because I am. This country is losing it's sense of accountability and it's disgusting. If you buck the system 9 times out of 10, and that 10th time you REALLY, actually, truthfully need help, go fuck yourself you piece of shit. I have absolutely no sympathy IF, and that's an unknown, this lady fucked around for years to get free drugs from my tax money and then got nothing when she really needed it.

Accountability. Taking responsibility for your actions. Look at Katrina, probably the most clear cut failure of self-reliance this country has ever seen, and it's the goddamn soapbox for every bleeding heart out there to stand on to cry their little frail heart out on. People bitch about how this, that and the other thing isn't fair, it's biased, where was my help when I needed it...how about help goes to those who aren't scumbags first, or help goes to those who are willing to help themselves?

Bottom line: if you fuck with people, if you fuck with the system, I have no sympathy when you get what is coming to you. On that note, I have no idea what this lady did to have a warrant for her, or how many times she sought drugs at the hospital, but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say she was a system bucker. Boo, fucking, hoo, pardon me if I don't lose a night of sleep over it Ilvane. By the way, what nursing home do you work at?

What about the accountability of the medical staff responsible for the triage and treatment of the patients who walk through the doors of the hospital with the expectation of adequate and competent care?

I'll be the first to admit that I have very little regard for frequent flyers (drug seekers) that hang around hospitals, especially ED's. For whatever the reason they have a problem that either they can fix or can fix with help. However, my judgement of them, which is by no means justified in any sense, should not preclude their ability to seek and get basic treatment for medical emergencies. In this specific case, at this specific time, the hospital (staff in particular) failed her, period.

[Ignot]

I guess it's difficult to understand how people can become indifferent to someone flailing around on the floor, but it happens. You won't ever understand it until you've worked around it for years. It has still yet to be determined if she was a "regular" (you know the people that everyone in the E.R. know, the homeless who crash there on a cold night with tummy aches, the ETOH who crash there to sober up from their .53 BAC, etc). This, IMO, makes a world of difference.

Your right, maybe it is difficult to understand. I also think it is difficult to understand how you can let someone die vomiting blood on the ER waiting room floor. You can defend the hospital all you want but just because someone is a regular doesnt mean they can't get some care when they are dying. She wasnt having a stomach ache or nursing a scratch, she was fucking dying dude.

But im sure her loved ones will be okay with "well you just dont understand, she was here regularly, sorry she died in front of us"

[Jazuela]

Even if she was a "frequent flyer" they could've at least secreted her away to a broom closet to die, or placed a blanket under her head so the janitors wouldn't have as much of a mess to clean up. If the admin and/or staff had made SOME gesture to imply they noticed her existence, it probably wouldn't have made the news.

[Kranar]

I would imagine there being safety concerns with someone lying down in a hallway, as well as having blood on the floor in what seems to be an area anyone could have walked by when there was no diagnosis or even an effort made to figure out what was going on.

[Ilvane]

I guess it's difficult to understand how people can become indifferent to someone flailing around on the floor, but it happens. You won't ever understand it until you've worked around it for years. It has still yet to be determined if she was a "regular" (you know the people that everyone in the E.R. know, the homeless who crash there on a cold night with tummy aches, the ETOH who crash there to sober up from their .53 BAC, etc). This, IMO, makes a world of difference.

I'm sorry, but if someone is that that point, IMO, this means they should not be working in an environment like that.

My mom was an emergency room radiologist in the trauma center of Boston City Hospital(now Boston Medical Center.) She also worked in the ER for 32 years. They saw stab wounds, gunshots, all kinds of trauma..and a variety of patients.

I asked her about this story and she was utterly disgusted by it. She said there were people there at the hospital she worked at that became burned out, so they were even given different assignments in a less stressful environment, or they went on to other jobs. The best thing about that place she said, was that they took in homeless and others all the time regardless of how they were.

I wonder sometimes what happened to compassion when I read some comments.

Angela

[Latrinsorm]

That's one big reason why I think it's so hard to be a medical professional, personally. You have to decide who to give time/effort to, knowing that the choice to give care to person A necessarily means some other person won't get it. It's palatable to say "yeah well she was vomiting blood". If we don't have any information on who was actually being treated, how is that a salient point?

[Kranar]

It's very troublesome how anyone can believe that someone lying in the middle of a hallway of a hospital, bleeding to death, can even remotely be dismissed via the notion that the hospital was just too busy to deal with the situation or had bigger priorities to attend to.

Some of you make it seem like she was just an unfortunate patient whom the hospital unfortunately just couldn't get around to because of its rigorous process of admitting people. That somehow, taking care of a woman laying smack in a hallway bleeding to her death could jeopardize the maximally efficient and well structured organization of this hospital and put other patients lives in jeopardy.

abc is to abd as pqr is to ___?

[Latrinsorm]

pqs!!!

[Blazing247]

I'm sorry, but if someone is that that point, IMO, this means they should not be working in an environment like that.

My mom was an emergency room radiologist in the trauma center of Boston City Hospital(now Boston Medical Center.) She also worked in the ER for 32 years. They saw stab wounds, gunshots, all kinds of trauma..and a variety of patients.

I asked her about this story and she was utterly disgusted by it. She said there were people there at the hospital she worked at that became burned out, so they were even given different assignments in a less stressful environment, or they went on to other jobs. The best thing about that place she said, was that they took in homeless and others all the time regardless of how they were.

I wonder sometimes what happened to compassion when I read some comments.

Angela


It would be wonderful if healthcare grew from a tree, and there was plenty of it to go around for every sick, lazy, and dying person in this world- but it doesn't. When I refer to a "regular", I am not talking about some stand up person who has fallen on a bit of hard luck. I'm talking about the homeless guy who smokes wet, comes in, and beats the crap out of his nurse. But he comes back day after day after day, usually drunk, sometimes cracked out, demands a free sandwich (which they give him once his level comes down), and who treats staff like a piece of shit every day. And the E.R.'s can't turn him away. The police won't prosecute him, even with the relatively new assault on healthcare workers legislation, because they know he is a drunk, or has psychiatric issues and the charges will be dropped in court.

One of these "drug seeking regulars" beat the crap out of a female friend of mine. Tore her hair out, clawed her face (she's still scarred) and hit her while she was in the fetal position. So excuse me, and fuck your bleeding heart, if I don't feel sorry for the homeless, the drug addicts, the drunks, who abuse the system and cost US (taxpayers with insurance) thousands of dollars per night by tying up an E.D. bed and hospital staff who spend more time attending to THEM then dealing with the truly sick patients. If this lady was one of these people, which it sounds like due to the indifference, then fuck her. How do you become indifferent to the same person flailing on the floor 7 nights a week? Easy, the first 40 times you go to save them you realize they are acting to get back in the E.R. more quickly to get drugs.

Again, you don't know it till you've lived it. An inner city E.R. is not a nice place to work, and the clients are usually not kind. Imagine being in the E.R. with your kid who is sick, and having to listen to some drug seeking POS scream, swear, and cry because they are detoxing and are going to go into convulsions if they don't get ativan stat. Sorry, my bleeding heart died a long time ago. Some day, hopefully you'll see the reality of this world that exists outside of Elanthia and your computer room.

[Ilvane]

I'm trying to tell you..my mother worked in the Boston City Hospital, the bad area of town..she saw it..and there still isn't an excuse for it.

She saw stab victims, gunshot wounds, homeless, drunks, drug seekers, etc..doesn't mean you leave them on the floor to die.

End of story, I don't care if you find it excusable, and if you are in that environment and feel that it's acceptable, you should not be working in it either.

Angela

[Skirmisher]

Again, you don't know it till you've lived it. An inner city E.R. is not a nice place to work, and the clients are usually not kind. Imagine being in the E.R. with your kid who is sick, and having to listen to some drug seeking POS scream, swear, and cry because they are detoxing and are going to go into convulsions if they don't get ativan stat. Sorry, my bleeding heart died a long time ago. Some day, hopefully you'll see the reality of this world that exists outside of Elanthia and your computer room.
Not everyone outside of those who exist in your circle of acquaintances or who disagrees with you exist in a vacuum and your disdain for everyone else is as naive in this regard as you seem to think everyone else is.

This was a screw up. Period. There simply is not a reasonable defense for that happening and the most likely reason I can think of is someone with a similar line of thinking as you, who was burned out allowed their arrogance and indifference to someone they judged as unworthy of care to blind them to the need of a patient who was in fact very much in need.

[Blazing247]

Your mother was a radiologist. I'm not taking anything away from her because that's a great job, but she doesn't see or interact with the drunk and disorderly's in any way. If, for whatever reason they need an x-ray, CT Scan, etc. they are usually heavily sedated before they arrive. Many hospital E.R.'s that I've visited have a separate hallway (called the behavioral hallway or psychiatric hallway), where these patients go so they are out of the way of the "normal" staff. Usually staffed by CNA's and orderly's/security depending on the hospital.

So sorry, don't really care what she has to say. Also, Boston isn't a drop in the bucket of "bad cities". I don't care that you don't care that I find it excusable. I admire your unwavering compassion for every particle of life on this Earth, but you're a fucking fool. At $4,000 per night of cost, by the time I left I had more than my fill of watching these scumbags of the Earth bleed everything they touched dry. No point in arguing anymore, you think I'm a cynical cold-hearted bastard, and I think you're a delusional, idealistic bleeding heart living in fantasy world. I'm ok with that.

[Blazing247]

Not everyone outside of those who exist in your circle of acquaintances or who disagrees with you exist in a vacuum and your disdain for everyone else is as naive in this regard as you seem to think everyone else is.

This was a screw up. Period. There simply is not a reasonable defense for that happening and the most likely reason I can think of is someone with a similar line of thinking as you, who was burned out allowed their arrogance and indifference to someone they judged as unworthy of care to blind them to the need of a patient who was in fact very much in need.

I'm not saying it was NOT a screw up. I'm saying there may have mitigating circumstances as to what occurred. I truly don't believe that the nurse saw her wallowing in pain and said, "fuck her let her die." I'm providing the devils' advocate, what if this person had done this 15x in a row to the nurse when faking it for attention, and the nurse just didn't react this last time? I'd find it pretty hard to fault her or the hospital then. We don't know how much blood was coming up, how plain of sight it was, etc. It may sound like I'm staunchly defending the hospital but I'm just pointing out the fact that we don't have ALL the facts (you can read 400 articles in a newspaper on it and still not have the truth), so don't be so hasty to condemn the staff to hell. That's all I'm saying.

[Daniel]

I just think you're a douche bag.

Guaranteed that if it was you or your family lying there on the floor that you wouldn't be saying its okay. So you might as well just shut the fuck up.

[Blazing247]

Are you fucking retarded? Read a bit.

[CrystalTears]

Look who's retarded and not reading. They have stated that she was sitting in a chair in front of the reception area of the ER and kept passing out, falling out of the chair and vomiting blood. She was told by them to get in the chair. They caught about 40 minutes of it on camera, with the janitor mopping up the blood around her.

She had a legit health problem. They gave her medication and a note to see her doctor. Her discharge slip stated to return if the symptoms became worse and vomitting occurred.

Unlike like people who are waiting to hear all the facts before passing complete judgment on the hospital, you're waiting to hear the facts of what kind of horrible person she was that deserved to die.

[Gan]

I'm not saying it was NOT a screw up. I'm saying there may have mitigating circumstances as to what occurred. I truly don't believe that the nurse saw her wallowing in pain and said, "fuck her let her die."
Funny, thats what you've advocated in practically every post you've made in this thread.


PS.

My wife's a former ER nurse (Ben Taub - Houston btw) (now CV ICU RN in a different hospital), we saw the news on this story and agrees that the hospital staff are in the error here.

Drug seeker or not, its a professional standard, its nurses who have your attitude that give the profession a bad name.

[Daniel]

Are you fucking retarded? Read a bit.

No, I just think it's abhorrent for anyone to condone someone not doing their job or being unprofessional. Especially if lives are on the line and regardless of the circumstances.

[Sean of the Thread]

I swear I've looked for a :douchebag: emote at least four times after reading blazing's bs.

[Kainen]

I swear I've looked for a :douchebag: emote at least four times after reading blazing's bs.

:lol: