Game balance != fun

[Renian]

(At least, not necessarily.)

For me, it seems like the fun of GS has diminished not only due to the lack of RP (which I need to do more myself), but due to mechanics changes that have been done for the sake of "game balance." But who the hell ever said game balance was necessarily fun?

What has been done for the sake of game balance that has ruined your fun to any extent? For me, it's the toning down of swarming areas like rabid squirrels, thyrils, and the like, as well as the nerfs to Shadow Mastery and Surge. Not to mention the ambush height nerf that prohibits larger races from hitting smaller things. Dammit, just make it a penalty, not a complete removal of aiming!

[Hulkein]

Gemstone sucks now.

[Ignot]

I dislike that all classes have pretty much the same type of spells just different wording. It's the communities fault. They complained so much and now the GM's have made everything balanced and the things that were unique to each class are pretty much gone.

Boo! game balance...Boo!

[Artha]

I dislike that all classes have pretty much the same type of spells just different wording. It's the communities fault. They complained so much and now the GM's have made everything balanced and the things that were unique to each class are pretty much gone.

QFT.

[Renian]

I just remembered--the increased scarcity of high-end items, and the fact that you now have to make most of them via premium points.

Was the River's Rest boot/log removed for game balance?

[Blazing247]

This discussion has gone on since the dawn of the MUD, and the same discussion can be found in any MMORPG as well. There was a well thought out article on mud wimping someone posted about a decade ago that explains the slippery slope of doing things in the name of "balance", but I've since deleted it from my favorites.

Basically, when you try to homogenize everything in your game for the sake of balance, you ruin it. Warden and Melissa were the two worst things to ever happen to Gemstone, as he is the champion of the nerf as we know it and she was the naive PM. Warcraft is following down a similar path, if you notice.

[Ignot]

Im scared of Renian's avatar.

[Renian]

As you should be.

[Celephais]

Haste II nerf took a LOT of the fun of the game away for me...
I also got pretty miffed when Wizards went from having the best defensive spells at the "cost" of needing to go offensive stance to use their best offensive spells, and having the worst spell hinderance... to Sorcs having as good/better (CoS) defensive spells and still getting to hunt in guarded most of the time (yeah I know I'm hardly in offensive stance for long anymore, and immolate has made guarded hunting much more pleasant for wizs..)

[Kitsun]

I think players are simply staying around their games for too long without experiencing other games to give a sense of balance. Do you think anyone planned or envisioned a player base that would spend 10 years in the same bloody game?

It doesn't matter how good the game is, after a few years human tendency alone ensure you have something to bitch about.

Adapt or move on.

[Latrinsorm]

Out of morbid curiosity, how do proponents of the "Warden is the devil and GS is homogenized now" explain the advent of the CMAN system?

[Sean]

Doesn't that assume that everyone thinks highly of the CMAN system?

[Bobmuhthol]

No, because the fact that CMAN is unique never changes based on whether people like it.

[StrayRogue]

There is no challenge/reward in the combat system of GS.

That is the main problem, I would guess.

[Celephais]

Out of morbid curiosity, how do proponents of the "Warden is the devil and GS is homogenized now" explain the advent of the CMAN system?

Devil's advocate:
Warriors and rogues didn't have spells... they have now been given "spells". Their CS is going to be called MB, and we use stamina instead of mana. The book on order of learning and such is more open, but effectively Cmans are just spells for squares.

[StrayRogue]

We got CMan's in exchange for them nerfing our guild skills.

[Blazing247]

I'm probably just bitter with Warden because he ruined any "outside the box" training when he stepped in. I rerolled a high level 2H giant wizard and a rogue with over 30 spell ranks due to changes to discourage hybridization in training.

[TheEschaton]

Damn, my spell casting rogue was awesome til redux rolled around (and the subsequent changes which followed with redux).

[Davenshire]

Kitsun is right on here.

And stray rogue has a good point as well.

A lot of the complaints I see of are people living the game for a long time, and then takeing every change personally. I think if anyone would expand there experience they would see a lot more pros to GS then cons.


The treasure system has a good point of taking into consideration hutning stress, but I think more difficult areas need to be put in, and more variance on the amount of loot people can take out of weak - hard areas.

This is really hard to implement with any game though, as you have high level power cash hunters MA'ing the living snot out of areas and selling silvers. : ( How is the system supposed to keep up?

[Renian]

I agree there are a lot more pros to GS than cons. That's why I still play. I'm just pissed that the pros are decreasing/being nerfed.

[Ignot]

Expand on GS by playing more characters? So I have to spend more money to enjoy the pros? I think I'll just bitch instead, its already overpriced IMO.

[Latrinsorm]

We got CMan's in exchange for them nerfing our guild skills.You mean like how they nerfed berserk? You're not seriously part of the "stamina is too smallz omg" contingent, are you?
Warriors and rogues didn't have spells... they have now been given "spells". Their CS is going to be called MB, and we use stamina instead of mana. The book on order of learning and such is more open, but effectively Cmans are just spells for squares.Recognizing you don't buy into this position, CMANs are not much like spells in actual use at all.
I'm probably just bitter with Warden because he ruined any "outside the box" training when he stepped in.He may have ruined your particular "outside the box" training plan, but it's hard to argue with the mountain of bizarre mutant plans that exist today. From armorless warriors to runestaff bards to TWC hurling rangers, it's not hard to find mutants. You could certainly make the claim that GS is just way too easy these days, but the contention that everyone is constrained to a path now is hard to sustain.

[Fallen]

How can you have any TRULY original types of attacks? There is seen mechanics, and unseen mechanics. If it isn't a maneuver attack (mostly unseen mechanics), it will be a number versus number check(seen mechanic).

If you dumb it down to that level, everything will seem unoriginal.

[Stanley Burrell]

I agreed, sadly, with a great deal of sincerity regarding Lord Laptop Smasher's wall-of-text reasoning for quitting because of how unbelievably nerfed, nay, marshmallowed the Warrior profession had and has become.

[StrayRogue]

You mean like how they nerfed berserk? You're not seriously part of the "stamina is too smallz omg" contingent, are you?


Are you stupid? No wait, you most likely didn't play in GS3.

How the guild skills got nerfed was indeed the stamina changes and the addition of a larger chance of failure.

In addition thanks to the changes to things like ambush, it made the rogue's guild all but useless. Coupled with stupid stamina requirements, the only two useful skills anymore are LFM and Gambits.

I'd give up all my CMans for the old MS vs. MD guild skills with no stamina costs.

[Gan]

How the guild skills got nerfed was indeed the stamina changes and the addition of a larger chance of failure.

In addition thanks to the changes to things like ambush, it made the rogue's guild all but useless. Coupled with stupid stamina requirements, the only two useful skills anymore are LFM and Gambits.

I'd give up all my CMans for the old MS vs. MD guild skills with no stamina costs.

/Agreed.


I miss the old Rogue Guild skills. I disliked not having sweep as a major part of my ohe/shield routine. Which is one reason why I went archery. Not to mention it sucks that you can get the foundation guild skills through cman now (sweep, subdue, cheapshot...).

The only guild skills I use with any regularity are gambits and lock mastery (and stun manuevers when I get into a jam). How many other rogues can you find that would differ? I bet if they took a poll you'd find the numbers suprising as to how infrequently used the other rogue guild skills are used nowdays.

[StrayRogue]

I never use my guild skills. I don't need them, except for maybe Stun Man when, as Ganalon said, I'm in a jam.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Kitsun is right on here.

A lot of the complaints I see of are people living the game for a long time, and then takeing every change personally. I think if anyone would expand there experience they would see a lot more pros to GS then cons.


You've taken this approach before. Just because you don't agree with someone, you don't have to validate yourself by claiming they either had way too much invested in the game for an emotionally stable person, or that they take game mechanics changes as personal attacks. Quite frankly, it's fucking ridiculous.

The game fucking blows now compared to GS3. That there can be armorless warriors or runestaff bards because they've dumbed down the combat system so much, is completely irrelevant. In the past, there were substantial rewards for leveling up, and it happened on a regular basis. In today's game, there is very little reward for capping--you still suck.

[StrayRogue]

I agree. I used to look at the uber people with awe.

Atreau is level 100 now.

Ergo, any fucking moron can get it.

[Warriorbird]

So basically...as time passed...you became Celtar. That's depressing.

[Tea & Strumpets]

So basically...as time passed...you became Celtar. That's depressing.

Yes, disliking the game after they made the most sweeping mechanics changes in the history of the game makes you Celtar. Your logic is truly admirable.

[StrayRogue]

If you think Gemstone is challenging, you really must be retarded.

[Warriorbird]

Yes, disliking the game after they made the most sweeping mechanics changes in the history of the game makes you Celtar. Your logic is truly admirable.

I was not referring to disliking the game in the slightest. There's a lot about GS that I don't like lately. It was more an attempt to respond to this...


I agree. I used to look at the uber people with awe.

Atreau is level 100 now.

Ergo, any fucking moron can get it.


...with a slightly amused tone. If anything it was bemoaning the Warden onslaught. I felt Warden basically coopted a bunch of lame ideas from Lohlem, then followed through with them badly.

[Skeeter]

Gemstone is great! Buy my charactars. KThx

[Landrion]

Expand on GS by playing more characters? So I have to spend more money to enjoy the pros? I think I'll just bitch instead, its already overpriced IMO.

That right there is the killer for me. It is simply way overpriced for what it is. I like the game, Im not downing it. But the fact is, theyre charging for things that are just being granted for free now. Like character slots.

[Tea & Strumpets]

If anything it was bemoaning the Warden onslaught. I felt Warden basically coopted a bunch of lame ideas from Lohlem, then followed through with them badly.

I agree with you there. I used to read those posts by Lohlem and Warden in the Game Balance folder with something akin to awe. The ideas that Lohlem proposed were completely assinine (let's unlink endrolls from combat results), and I could not believe that Warden entertained them and eventually implemented them.

[Some Guy]

The perspective of the really high level characters in here is interesting. I've played since AOL but the highest I've ever managed to get is level 41 in GSIV. So obviously I wouldn't know about a lof of the losses some of you are talking about.

One of the most interesting things that's come up in here repeatedly though is that you can't be an "uber" badass anymore at level 100+. So essentially you can't be all-powerful and walk around like a God anymore. So what GSIV did was like wealth-distribution. The super-elite lost their previous status and power and lower level characters saw more gain (I actually gained levels during the change over, from 25 to 28). So the super powerful lost a great deal of power, many gained more, and then a lot didn't gain or lose all that much.

The thing I'd point out is that from Simu's point of view, the super-powerful (while obviously the most dedicated players) were in a distinct minority and that the changes they made benefited much more people than they hurt.

Or maybe the game sucks, I don't know. I really don't play enough or for long enough periods of time to notice if the game is getting worse. I personally like the changes though. They made my warrior playable again, but that's just because I trained him shitty in GSIII to begin with. And if they did make the game easier, that probably benefitted me because I'm a shitty player. I usually am at most video games except maybe FPS.

[Latrinsorm]

No wait, you most likely didn't play in GS3.Ah, that old chestnut.
How the guild skills got nerfed was indeed the stamina changes and the addition of a larger chance of failure.My warrior uses shield bash (which has a second chance of failure past success margin and costs more stamina than sweep) and never runs out of stamina. Somehow it's hard for me to accept your claims as anything more than a fanciful concoction of bitterness and nostalgia. Even Nodyre doesn't bitch (that much) about stamina anymore, for Pete's sake. About the only "nerfing" calls I'll accept are the initial stamina requirement for subdue, because 30 stamina was way high.
I used to look at the uber people with awe.If some guy sitting around picking boxes for years on end impresses you, I guess I don't know what to say.
Not to mention it sucks that you can get the foundation guild skills through cman now (sweep, subdue, cheapshot...).Why does this suck again?
In the past, there were substantial rewards for leveling up, and it happened on a regular basis.I'm glad you've backed off your previous claim in the face of overwhelming evidence. :) This claim is distinctly more interesting: I'm very curious to hear how gaining a level (or 1.6 levels, if you'd like) in GS3 provided significantly more rewards than a level in GSIV. You've mentioned before how at higher levels you could customize your character; is the source of your complaint perhaps that characters can now be customized pretty much whenever people feel like rather than at cap (which, as must be mentioned, I never got to)? It seems to me that with the EBP and/or CMAN systems we have two whole new avenues to improve upon that we didn't before, and (to my great dismay) level is by far the most important factor in both.

I certainly can't argue that levels were less frequent back in the day, but we've discussed the differences between a scale with 160 tick marks and 100 before.

[StrayRogue]

You cannot use a 30 stamina move on every critter, LIKE you used to be able to. You fucking moron.

Stun man doesn't work as much anymore.

Sweep = useless.
Cheapshots = useless.

Add to that an even greater chance of failure, and we get a whole stew of Nerfage.

[Latrinsorm]

Sweep costs 12 stamina, perhaps you can expound on how it suddenly became useless over the switch given that it has an incidental stamina cost? I already said that subdue was in bad shape, but why were you subduing every creature to begin with? You remind me of one disgruntled warrior who went out, tackled everything he saw over and over until his muscles popped, then came to the boards and claimed that Simu was clearly trying to phase out warriors. I think the name was something with an R, but that's not the point.

[Sean]

I did a lot of sweeping as a disabler when I played my rogue before the shift to a stamina based system. Once it switched over I opted to just learn ewave instead.

[Tea & Strumpets]

<Insert Nienique's avatar here for my reaction>


I'm glad you've backed off your previous claim in the face of overwhelming evidence. :) This claim is distinctly more interesting: I'm very curious to hear how gaining a level (or 1.6 levels, if you'd like) in GS3 provided significantly more rewards than a level in GSIV.

Better stat growth, less "necessary" skills to train in, more training points. It also took 50k experience to level up, as opposed to the 125k experience it is today at higher levels.


You've mentioned before how at higher levels you could customize your character; is the source of your complaint perhaps that characters can now be customized pretty much whenever people feel like rather than at cap (which, as must be mentioned, I never got to)?

Yes, I'm completely childish and I'm disgruntled that lower level players enjoy more flexibility. It really gets my goat. /end sarcasm

I think you may get that impression simply because I've pointed out that most lower level players don't care about the nerfing because they were given a few pieces of candy. That doesn't mean I'm completely assinine and begrudge lower level players having an easier time.


It seems to me that with the EBP and/or CMAN systems we have two whole new avenues to improve upon that we didn't before, and (to my great dismay) level is by far the most important factor in both.

I'm not a big fan. I don't think they add much to the combat system, and 2 more skills that I "have" to train in with less training points is less than thrilling to me.


I certainly can't argue that levels were less frequent back in the day, but we've discussed the differences between a scale with 160 tick marks and 100 before.

Like I explained before, 60 more levels worth of stat growth and training points provided more flexibility. Each level I had more "leftover" training points after learning core skills, which allowed me to distribute those points into skills that I thought were fun, rather than training in the skills I need to be effective in combat.

And like I've mentioned before, you were nerfed just as badly as I was, regardless of your level. Instead of losing a shitload of skills, lower level players just had their potential limited. Some of you just don't realize it. If you ever do get to the cap (if you even care about that kind of thing), you'll still never enjoy the flexibility that I enjoyed. You may think that you have tons of options, but you have nothing compared to what was possible in the past.

I'm not saying GS3 was all sunshine and roses, but on this particular topic, there is simply no comparison.

[StrayRogue]

Its useless because of the pushdown.

[Renian]

Sweep seems useful enough for me as an archer when something has WoF or Wizard's Shield up, as I can't use pushdown. Now, for melee rogues, screw that. You want all the stamina you can get to keep up smastery and surge, now.

Cheapshots, though, are pretty bad.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm not a big fan. I don't think they add much to the combat system, and 2 more skills that I "have" to train in with less training points is less than thrilling to me.But don't you see? You don't have to train in stuff to get better at EBP and CMAN. If I decided I wanted my warrior to maneuver that Evarin fellow into a mudhole, I'd have a better chance convincing StrayRogue how much better the American school system is than the English even if Evarin had **0** CM ranks.
Better stat growthIs the difference between a 90 and a 100 really "significant" though?
less "necessary" skills to train in, more training points. ... Each level I had more "leftover" training points after learning core skills, which allowed me to distribute those points into skills that I thought were fun, rather than training in the skills I need to be effective in combat.I'm really profoundly puzzled how you keep saying this. I had to go out of my way to find things to train in that were combat-oriented with my warrior, and I still had points left over for climbing and swimming. What the heck are you training in that doesn't leave a whole mess of points left over, especially at your character's level?
You may think that you have tons of options, but you have nothing compared to what was possible in the past.It's odd, because all I ever see in ye olde loges are people spell tanking and/or hide/ambushing. I wonder if you could elaborate on just what you had available to you (which I obviously had nothing like) that we don't now?
Its useless because of the pushdown.Perhaps this is a terminology issue then. I consider a "nerf" to be a downgrade of a particular item: for instance the changes to the CS formula to rein in triplers. You seem to consider a nerf to be introducing something new that outclasses something old: for instance ambush pushdown allegedly making sweep irrelevant. I think it's the same issue as the people who raised holy hell about how guild skills were given away "for free" in the CMAN system that I didn't get then and don't get now: if what you have is exactly the same as (or better than) it used to be, how can it possibly have been nerfed? Where does this determination to rate your efforts or abilities against someone else come from in a world of infinite resources?

[Tea & Strumpets]

But don't you see? You don't have to train in stuff to get better at EBP and CMAN.

I don't understand what you are getting at here. You can't maneuver a capped sorceror with no CMAN ranks because he is higher level...and?


I'm really profoundly puzzled how you keep saying this. I had to go out of my way to find things to train in that were combat-oriented with my warrior, and I still had points left over for climbing and swimming. What the heck are you training in that doesn't leave a whole mess of points left over, especially at your character's level?

It's because I had a metric shit ton of abilities maxxed out, and like a spoiled child I tried to do the same thing in GS4. It's not possible for me to retain everything I had in GS3...it's not even close. I know from experience.


It's odd, because all I ever see in ye olde loges are people spell tanking and/or hide/ambushing. I wonder if you could elaborate on just what you had available to you (which I obviously had nothing like) that we don't now?Perhaps this is a terminology issue then. I consider a "nerf" to be a downgrade of a particular item: for instance the changes to the CS formula to rein in triplers. You seem to consider a nerf to be introducing something new that outclasses something old: for instance ambush pushdown allegedly making sweep irrelevant. I think it's the same issue as the people who raised holy hell about how guild skills were given away "for free" in the CMAN system that I didn't get then and don't get now: if what you have is exactly the same as (or better than) it used to be, how can it possibly have been nerfed?

The "nerf" that I was referring to was that it's no longer possible to be thoroughly trained in as many skills that you could max out in GS3. For example (remember this is just an example and not the foundation of my argument), in GS3 I could learn 40 ranks of mana sharing, be fully trained in the skill, and never visit it again.

I'll say it again, I've never said GS3 was perfect. It was leaps and bounds ahead of GS4 though in terms of rewards at higher levels. They made a huge mistake (although this was also one of the funnest GS experiences I had) letting us all reallocate a year before the switch. The nerf wouldn't have been as evident (to me) if I hadn't had the opportunity to retrain at lvl 100 or whenever it happened... It still would have been obvious to the min-maxers that started with a plan from level 0, and dealt with the difficulties in the early years.

[Celephais]

You weren't "Maxxed out" at 40 ranks... in GS3 you were just able to take advantage of diminishing returns moreso, if you were 1x in a skill in GS3 you should be (relatively close) able to 1x that skill in GS4 at the switch, except now with the cap you can keep gaining TPs and actually get more skills in GS4. So your 40 ranks in GS3 is really 25 ranks in GS4, they just made the ranks more meaningful, and made the "expected" skill level lower for given levels.

[Sean]

I can't wait until they introduce a basket weaving skill so that once I've maxed all the skills important to my character that I can keep hunting to master in it.

[Tea & Strumpets]

You weren't "Maxxed out" at 40 ranks... in GS3 you were just able to take advantage of diminishing returns moreso, if you were 1x in a skill in GS3 you should be (relatively close) able to 1x that skill in GS4 at the switch, except now with the cap you can keep gaining TPs and actually get more skills in GS4. So your 40 ranks in GS3 is really 25 ranks in GS4, they just made the ranks more meaningful, and made the "expected" skill level lower for given levels.

By "maxxed out" I meant that I could send mana to anyone with similar training.

And actually what they did with mana sharing, was to split it into 2 different skills, make it impossible to receive 100% of mana sent, and you still need 40* ranks (now in 2 skills) to retain a semblance of the abilities you had prior.

*I could be remembering wrong. I thought 40 ranks was the "magic number" that put you at a 101 bonus or something. Is it really 24? I can't recall. Regardless, they didn't make the ranks more meaningful. They have the same bonuses as before (5,4,3,2,1), you just have 60 less chances to train them.

Anyway, that's just one example of 20.

[StrayRogue]

You weren't "Maxxed out" at 40 ranks... in GS3 you were just able to take advantage of diminishing returns moreso, if you were 1x in a skill in GS3 you should be (relatively close) able to 1x that skill in GS4 at the switch, except now with the cap you can keep gaining TPs and actually get more skills in GS4. So your 40 ranks in GS3 is really 25 ranks in GS4, they just made the ranks more meaningful, and made the "expected" skill level lower for given levels.


Wrong.

Certain skills, like mana share required only a specific amount of ranks to fully max.

[Tolwynn]

Nerfing Symbol of Dreams was kind of obnoxious. The apparent reason was that nobody should get extra xp absorption, and yet they rolled out Lumnis' Gift which gives triple, instead of the double afforded by Dreams.

[Celephais]

I am well aware of how mana share worked, and no you weren't maxed at 40 ranks, because in those days your training could make up for the deficienies of others... infact to "max" mana share you needed a 2000 skill... don't think you had that.

So your skills got diminished, mana share got a bit of a nerf, everyone got that nerf. I think it was pretty ridiculous for a 80th square to be able to send 4 times the mana that a 20th pure could send.

Some new skills got added, costs got changed, but they tweaked expected skill ranges to match, relatively you lost nothing, the world around you changed.

[Sean]

Using mana share as the example since it seems to be trend, how can you in one paragraph say mana share got nerfed/tweaked and then in the next say relatively you lost nothing. Having to train in 2 skills as opposed to 1 to have approximately the same effectiveness as you previously did decreases the number of available TPs that you have to train in other skills with. Granted this is a global change as opposed to an individual change but it's still a loss especially to those who group hunted with someone of the opposite mana type as your own.

[Celephais]

because you're now not expected to be able to share 100% effieciently with everyone, and since not everyone else can either you're "relatively" in the same spot. It did get nerfed, I'm not denying that.

[StrayRogue]

Lol no, you did not need 2000 skill. You needed 24 ranks to be able to share 100% with someone else with 24 ranks, and 40 ranks to be able to send any amount of mana to anyone, even if they had no mana share skill.

[Celephais]

Lol no, you did not need 2000 skill. You needed 24 ranks to be able to share 100% with someone else with 24 ranks, and 40 ranks to be able to send any amount of mana to anyone, even if they had no mana.

... i didn't say you needed 2k skill to share 100% with someone, i said you needed 2k skill to be "Maxxed" (two x). 40 ranks wouldn't let you share with anyone who had no mana share, 40 ranks, or 140 skill, let you share with "140% efficency" so if someone had 10 ranks, or 50% and you shared with them, a total of 70% would get transfered.

Even if I'm wrong in that aspect it doesn't change the fact that now design considerations don't have to automatically assume EVERYONE past 100 has 40 ranks of sharing.

[Sean]

Not totally true, at least until Mental is released. For example since training costs for the mana controls is different from class to class a sorcerer is in a better relative position to be a mana battery, with their low training costs in elemental and spiritual, than any other class given their hybrid nature.

[StrayRogue]

What? You didn't need mana share. Especially if you were a square. Most people back then had 24 ranks so they could send for masses. Warriors, rogues, everyone. It was pure courtesy. It had nothing to do with game design, but the way the community was back then.

"Even if I'm wrong in that aspect it doesn't change the fact that now design considerations don't have to automatically assume EVERYONE past 100 has 40 ranks of sharing."

Stupidest thing ever. The game wasn't designed so that people needed mana share. The fact that they changed it was a nerf. A stupid, stupid nerf. Nor does it change the fact that it was a skill that had a cap, a solid limit where once you had the specific amount of ranks in the skill you never needed to train in it again, similiar to how armour works now.

[Celephais]

Not totally true, at least until Mental is released. For example since training costs for the mana controls is different from class to class a sorcerer is in a better relative position to be a mana battery, with their low training costs in elemental and spiritual, than any other class given their hybrid nature.

As they should be, but they did a lot of tweaks like that, they diversified a lot of the skills, a sorc might be a better mana battery (and I'm of the opinion sorcs are overpowered), but they got nerfed in other areas, they can't just don a suit of brig and say "meh" to the 8% hinderance, because armor training costs got skewed so zero training means much higher hinderance.

The design of new hunting grounds now assumes that squares aren't able to share nearly as well, which means a few things, they can assume squares won't be decked out, and they can assume pures won't have tons of mana from a partner who doesn't need it. It gives them more flexibility in their design and now as a square you don't have to bother training in sharing because you shouldn't be expected to.... and you have more training points to "spread out".

Yes things changed, but nerf is relative, and everybody got nerfed...

[Mistomeer]

Is the difference between a 90 and a 100 really "significant" though?

It comes out to about half a training point per level. It would be hard to figure it precisely without a specific example, but if you said that a stat hit 90 at level 100 and then maxed out at level 115 in GS3, then it would be a difference of 22.5 training points. If the training points went to mental training points and you were converting physical for them, then it could conceivably make up 45 training points.

Keep in mind, however, that's one skill maxing at 115 and you could multiply that across probably 4-6 skills at various points and probably make up several hundred training points.

I think the point here isn't so much that you are losing out on a couple hundred TP's between GS3 and GS4 so much, but rather you're losing out on a couple hundred TP's and then in addition to that the training costs have increased. For example, the costs for shields for pures went up significantly in GS4 and if you don't go that route you have to train every single level in things like MIU to use a runestaff. Thus, at older levels the cost is huge. The choice is to either convert physical to mental for runestaff DS, where the physical TP's count half as much, or pay twice as much for shield use. Taking a guess, I'm going to say that you're spending about twice as many training points to get the same amount of DS in GS4.

In addition to that you have to spend TP's to get mana in GS4. In addition, the introduction of lores takes even more training points. Sure, in GS3 you had skills that affected spells, but many of those skills were a split cost between physical and mental whereas lores are straight mental. What that means is that when you're converting physical to mental the cost goes up significantly.

Overall, there's a higher cost for the same effectiveness in GS4 and there's less TP's available.

[Fallen]

In GS3 you could get to the point where you couldn't learn by killing critters. It was broken.

[Back]

Posted in the wrong thread. Dur.

[Renian]

In GS3 you could get to the point where you couldn't learn by killing critters. It was broken.

Well yeah, until they implemented the 160 soft cap. That was fine. But those 60 levels made a difference.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't understand what you are getting at here. You can't maneuver a capped sorceror with no CMAN ranks because he is higher level...and?I was addressing the "I don't think they add much to the combat system, and 2 more skills that I "have" to train in with less training points is less than thrilling to me." statement by pointing out you don't "have" to train in anything: your character gets better at EBP/CMAN just by leveling up (which, again, I think is awful silly, but silliness is uncorrelated with existence).
It's because I had a metric shit ton of abilities maxxed outLike what?

For mana share, 100% efficiency was at 24 ranks (102 bonus). However, you could "make up" for others' deficiencies by being at 200 bonus (100 ranks). I'm pretty sure most people stopped at 40 ranks because of diminishing returns, but you were not maxed at that point. (Also, it's three skills now, not two. :D) Mana sharing is a good example of something that's much harder to do now: but it's not very impressive, is it? Sharing mana?
If the training points went to mental training points and you were converting physical for them, then it could conceivably make up 45 training points. The problem with comparing TPs like that is that the TP formulas changed, stat growth changed, heck, even how TP costs are determined changed with the switch. Not only that, what you get for your TPs has changed considerably. T&S, here's where your III cap (or nearcap) experience comes in (which, remember, I don't have!): how much DS did a pure need to hunt adequately in the III cap environment? Would you say it was higher, lower, or about the samea s the DS a pure needs to hunt adequately in IV (obviously excluding the Temple, what with it not being around then)?

[Mistomeer]

The problem with comparing TPs like that is that the TP formulas changed, stat growth changed, heck, even how TP costs are determined changed with the switch.

In what way exactly? Costs changed with skill changes, but I was not aware of any changes to the TP formula or the stat growth formula. As far as costs are concerned, I pointed out the changes in costs to things like shield use for pures. Yes, they changed, but they changed by increasing, thus reducing the number of available TP's to players. I'm still yet to see how these changes did anything to increase TP's available.


Not only that, what you get for your TPs has changed considerably.
Obviously the skills have changed. I addressed some of that in my post pointing out how that actually reduces available TP's. I'm yet to see you post anything contrary to that.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I am well aware of how mana share worked, and no you weren't maxed at 40 ranks, because in those days your training could make up for the deficienies of others... infact to "max" mana share you needed a 2000 skill... don't think you had that.



Why would you take 1 or 2 words and make them the basis of your reply? Did you really think I was saying I had 2000 skill in mana share? I thought it was completely obvious what I was trying to communicate, and you reply disagreeing with something that I was never trying to say.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I was addressing the "I don't think they add much to the combat system, and 2 more skills that I "have" to train in with less training points is less than thrilling to me." statement by pointing out you don't "have" to train in anything: your character gets better at EBP/CMAN just by leveling up (which, again, I think is awful silly, but silliness is uncorrelated with existence).Like what?

It's irrelevant and completely unrelated to the topic at hand. You couldn't have used any guild skills on Fallen in GS3 either.

And in regards to your "have to train" comment, I'm well of aware of your love of taking one word out of a paragraph to frame a rebuttal around, which was why I put "have" in quotation marks. I hoped to avoid wasting time replying to yet another imaginary argument, but the force is too strong in you.

I'll explain it anyway, feel free to take one word out of these paragraphs to frame your reply around. When I said I "have" to train in more skills, I thought it was obvious what I meant was, I have to train in them unless I want to try some mutant path that gimps me in certain areas. I never had to suck at 3 things to be good at 1 thing in GS3.


For mana share, 100% efficiency was at 24 ranks (102 bonus). However, you could "make up" for others' deficiencies by being at 200 bonus (100 ranks). I'm pretty sure most people stopped at 40 ranks because of diminishing returns, but you were not maxed at that point. (Also, it's three skills now, not two. :D) Mana sharing is a good example of something that's much harder to do now: but it's not very impressive, is it?

Again with the nitpicking over 2 words. I don't understand the perverse pleasure you get in nitpicking and arguing against ideas that I was obviously not saying. Mana sharing was very impressive. You are debating against no one but an imaginary argument that no one is a proponent of.


The problem with comparing TPs like that is that the TP formulas changed, stat growth changed, heck, even how TP costs are determined changed with the switch. Not only that, what you get for your TPs has changed considerably.

Yes, all for the worse, mostly because there are 60 less chances for stat growth and for TP's to be calculated.


T&S, here's where your III cap (or nearcap) experience comes in (which, remember, I don't have!): how much DS did a pure need to hunt adequately in the III cap environment? Would you say it was higher, lower, or about the samea s the DS a pure needs to hunt adequately in IV (obviously excluding the Temple, what with it not being around then)?

I don't know why you sarcastically bring up your low level of experience in GS3 as if I somehow insulted you by mentioning it. I'm well aware that people play the game for different reasons. You have zero experience at high levels, and all of your opinions on it are based purely on conjecture--that's just a fact, not an insult.

Pures had no DS problems in any version of Gemstone that I recall.

[Fallen]

I don't know why you sarcastically bring up your low level of experience in GS3 as if I somehow insulted you by mentioning it. I'm well aware that people play the game for different reasons. You have zero experience at high levels, and all of your opinions on it are based purely on conjecture--that's just a fact, not an insult.

Pures had no DS problems in any version of Gemstone that I recall. >>

In GS4 with the advent of FoF especially, pures in OTF self spelled will have very big DS problems. You will be constantly forced into offensive and be prone. A part of hunting these higher level grounds is either A. Figuring out how to cope with this, or B. Finding a reliable source of outside spells. I am unsure if this is the same in the Temple.


What I dont understand about all this talk about 60 more levels is that the whole game was compressed. Have 60 more trains in skills just meant your numbers are higher. You can do the same thing with the skills at 100 as you could at 160. I suppose the big issue is that IN those 60 levels, you had more time to train in extra crap. Though it may be weak sauce for some, that is what post cap training is all about. Filling in all those skills that you didn't have the points for going 1-100.

The main difference between GS3-GS4 is that your character can no longer be "Special". Even at cap, you are as easy to kill with a maneuver attack that takes levels into account at 7.8 mill exp, as you are with 18 mill exp. You may know a lot of skills which will aid in defending you, but in the end, without that level cushion, you are going to get creamed. Good or bad, everyone likes being "Special".

[StrayRogue]

The main difference between GS3-GS4 is that your character can no longer be "Special". Even at cap, you are as easy to kill with a maneuver attack that takes levels into account at 7.8 mill exp, as you are with 18 mill exp. You may know a lot of skills which will aid in defending you, but in the end, without that level cushion, you are going to get creamed. Good or bad, everyone likes being "Special".


We have a winner. Not being able to be special is boring.

[Celephais]

I'm not saying there weren't nerfs, but they were all around... that mana share/pool nerf was against the pures not the squares... if you have a lvl 160 wizard teamed up with a lvl 160 warrior... that wizard had 960 mana to work with, and the respective pulse regen that brings (early GS3: 96 off node, later 144). The nerf against "levels" in this retrospect reduced at a rate such that if the warrior were 0.25x Mana share (40 ranks) they would now have 25 ranks of mana share... which is still 100% efficient with any pure who has the same sphere choosen.

They made these nerfs from a design perspective... because as easy as they have made things now, how the F do you "challenge" a wizard with a 0 second CT and 960 mana teamed up with a warrior w/ 1 second RT? Both having maxed stats and 60/60 TPs in those later levels? I don't see any way you can challenge them without being "cheap" yourself.

[Artha]

Two capped characters should be able to demolish pretty much everything. I don't see the problem there.

[Fallen]

We have a winner. Not being able to be special is boring.

I dont see this as very different from any other online RPG. Everyone is level 70 + gear in WoW. Everyone is level 100 + Gear in GS. There is some development in GS past cap, which is nice, but not enough IMO.

2 things that would add a LOT to the Post Cap Experience is the addition of two Post Cap only training options.

1. The ability to buy a level's worth of Natural TD/Maneuver Defense. Call the skill Advance Combat Tactics, and make it a flat shitload of points across the board, 60/60 for every profession.

2. The ability to buy 1 stat point. Each Stat point is again a flat cost of 60/0 for Physical, 0/60 for Mental, and I suppose some sort of middle ground for any stats deemed to be a bit of both. All stats can ONLY be raised to 100. Perhaps you can raise your prime stats to 105.

IMO this would not be unbalancing. CS/AS/DS's would all stay in check, and there would be some characters that are simply extremely hard to kill. Not impossible, and they wouldn't be gods, but they would stand out as extremely strong.

People like Gob and Tsin COULD dump all their points first into maxing stats, then buy a good 30 levels of maneuver/TD protection, but there goes all their post cap skill gains. Would they be pretty damn hard to kill? Sure. Would they be the Drizzdts and Malok's of old? Not even close.

[CrystalTears]

I don't think it's fair to make a direct comparison of GS with WoW, as WoW has level-based gear that increases stats and abilities. I don't believe GS incorporates that into their items, but times have changed, maybe they have, someone will have to mention that.

You could potentially have the same sword in GS from level 20 to 100 and it wouldn't really change anything. However in WoW, a level 70 character with level 60 items is considerably less potent than in 70 gear, let alone epic gear.

So since all the items in GS can be basically interchangable regardless of level, leveling and training is all you have to increase potential. And it's pretty bland when all level 100's are the same.

[Fallen]

But after a certain point, isn't anyone with all the epic crap at 70 the same? The game just hasn't been around long enough for there to be a glut in that particular group.

When you have 15 years of people powerhunting..heh.

[CrystalTears]

The people who were completely decked out in the BEST available epics are very very few, but that's my guess, I could be wrong. A good chunk of the population don't raid and will never attain that kind of gear.

I just don't feel those two games are valid comparisons because the way the characters are played, leveled and specced are entirely different.

[StrayRogue]

I'm not saying there weren't nerfs, but they were all around... that mana share/pool nerf was against the pures not the squares... if you have a lvl 160 wizard teamed up with a lvl 160 warrior... that wizard had 960 mana to work with, and the respective pulse regen that brings (early GS3: 96 off node, later 144). The nerf against "levels" in this retrospect reduced at a rate such that if the warrior were 0.25x Mana share (40 ranks) they would now have 25 ranks of mana share... which is still 100% efficient with any pure who has the same sphere choosen.



Yet Starsnuffer still struggled for mana in GS3.

How about basing your arguments on GS hunting being solo balanced, which the mechanics reflect.

[StrayRogue]

Agreed, CT. There is a minority on in each server who will have the most recent gear. Considering only one guild (to my knowledge) has cleared the latest high level instance, there is still a vast sum of gear yet to be seen.

[Latrinsorm]

In what way exactly? Costs changed with skill changes, but I was not aware of any changes to the TP formula or the stat growth formula.Remember how Aura and Discipline used to count double? They don't anymore, prime stats do now for each profession. As for stat growth: http://lostranger.tsoran.com/gs3/

Put in all 50s for a human warrior (for instance), you can see the differences: Con, Agi(/Ref), Inf(/Cha), Int.
I'm yet to see you post anything contrary to that.What's changed is that instead of one or two standard paths, we have a wide array of choices. You're not as able to do a whole bunch of things right away, but from what T&S says about the III cap (which I never got to, as you'll recall) that's no different.
When I said I "have" to train in more skills, I thought it was obvious what I meant was, I have to train in them unless I want to try some mutant path that gimps me in certain areas. I never had to suck at 3 things to be good at 1 thing in GS3.Again, you keep saying you could do all this stuff in GS3, but so far all you've mentioned is mana share. Am I supposed to just guess at the stuff you could do in GS3 or what?
I don't understand the perverse pleasure you get in nitpicking and arguing against ideas that I was obviously not saying.That paragraph wasn't addressed to you in particular. :)
I don't know why you sarcastically bring up your low level of experience in GS3 as if I somehow insulted you by mentioning it.I keep bringing it up because I think it's funny to keep bringing it up. Really, I'm a cheerful guy! I'm not out to get you or anything. :D
Pures had no DS problems in any version of Gemstone that I recall.Certainly, but I was more concerned with a raw number comparison. Mistomeer's contention is that we get "less" for TPs now, as TP costs for shield for pures (for instance) have gone up. My point is that if 1 DS in IV is worth 1.5 or 2 DS in III, we can't logically compare the TP values directly across (not even taking into account all that stuff I said before).
Not being able to be special is boring.It's significantly easier to be special (unique) in GSIV. It's significantly harder to be special (invulnerable, omnipotent). Isn't it more impressive to say "I did this in an entirely novel way" than to say "I did it just like everyone else, but wicked hahder"? At the far end of the timeline, people who hunt for decades post-cap will all have the same training by definition, but that's got to be the definition of arguing the exception as the rule.

[StrayRogue]

Easy doesn't mean better or good.

It was far more impressive for someone to gain a significant amount of levels with a mutant build in GS3. In GS4 you can easily grind the first 50 levels with a generic build, then switch to something obscure.

[Fallen]

Yes. Levels meant more back then, but the game is far more developed than it was now. There is simply much more to do, even if you dont enjoy most of it. There was certainly more unbalanced aspects which could be considered fun, but one could never argue that the game was more polished.

[Renian]

I dont see this as very different from any other online RPG. Everyone is level 70 + gear in WoW. Everyone is level 100 + Gear in GS. There is some development in GS past cap, which is nice, but not enough IMO.

Er...100 + gear? Not really. Tsin has all the pimp gear, along with Ardwen and a few others. There needs to be more awesome items in GS that more people can get.




2 things that would add a LOT to the Post Cap Experience is the addition of two Post Cap only training options.

1. The ability to buy a level's worth of Natural TD/Maneuver Defense. Call the skill Advance Combat Tactics, and make it a flat shitload of points across the board, 60/60 for every profession.

2. The ability to buy 1 stat point. Each Stat point is again a flat cost of 60/0 for Physical, 0/60 for Mental, and I suppose some sort of middle ground for any stats deemed to be a bit of both. All stats can ONLY be raised to 100. Perhaps you can raise your prime stats to 105.

IMO this would not be unbalancing. CS/AS/DS's would all stay in check, and there would be some characters that are simply extremely hard to kill. Not impossible, and they wouldn't be gods, but they would stand out as extremely strong.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YES PLZ.
Though, I wouldn't make Advanced Combat Tactics 60/60. 50/50 is more reasonable, as that would make it 125k XP per rank--nearly the xp required for 99-100. I guess, after a few ranks, it would become more expensive to simulate the +500 XP per level thing. (Every five ranks, +1/1 tps)

[Fallen]

Er...100 + gear? Not really. Tsin has all the pimp gear, along with Ardwen and a few others. There needs to be more awesome items in GS that more people can get. >>

They have a metric TON of nice gear. Does everyone deserve lockers full of items worth thousands? No. You can get nice stuff and not merchant, as can you do so without buying silver or the items. If you want a BUNCH of it, yeah, you're actually going to have to work for it. Merchant, grind for silver, etc.

Most capped people I know have some nice stuff. Especially if they are POST cap, then you can really grind for loot.

[Danical]

1. The ability to buy a level's worth of Natural TD/Maneuver Defense. Call the skill Advance Combat Tactics, and make it a flat shitload of points across the board, 60/60 for every profession.

2. The ability to buy 1 stat point. Each Stat point is again a flat cost of 60/0 for Physical, 0/60 for Mental, and I suppose some sort of middle ground for any stats deemed to be a bit of both. All stats can ONLY be raised to 100. Perhaps you can raise your prime stats to 105.

This would kinda defeat the purpose of the level cap but I'd like to see some development past filling out my skills chart. I think they'll have to have something like this IF the 130 area comes out. Otherwise, it'll suck a bag of dicks.

[StrayRogue]

Saying good gear is readily available in GS3 is being pretty stupid. It is no where near as accessable as it is in WoW, simply because people don't want to spend $1000.

[Fallen]

Depends on what you consider good. You people have amazingly high standards. Is there the equivalent of 1 of a kind weapons,armor,magical trinkets in WoW? Everyone's crap looks the same.

I dont really see a point in turning this into a WoW vr GS debate; people are just too damn bias. Hell, I remember when someone was trying to convince me that the RP is just as good in WoW as it is in GS.

[StrayRogue]

IIRC it was you who brought wow into this.

GS is balanced for 4x stuff.

As it stands, you are not rewarded for the time you spend in GS, loot or honor or reknown wise. Nor are you challenged in a continuing manner.

[CrystalTears]

You were the one who made the comparison in the first place, so sorry that it turned into that, and exactly why I said it wasn't a valid comparison.

And see, I take issue with "unique" items in GS because then only one person gets it. Instead of it being a soulbound, merchants wind up upselling and overpricing it so that it gets sold a billion times and no one really ever enjoys the stupid thing. This way it goes to a person who intends to use it for themselves only.

What is the harm in having hundreds of different items out there that are of great worth? Why does it have to be completely unique? First you don't want any one person to be overpowered, yet you seem completely fine with one person holding all the neat toys.

[Sean]

Probably because theres no point in owning 4/5 of the 'uber' 'awesome' items since the games been dulled down to where anyone can get from A-B using basic gear. You own stuff just to own stuff in GS, it's a status symbol.

[StrayRogue]

Plus, you run the risk of losing 90% of your uber shit should you wish to take it into the end game.

[Fallen]

In GS there is about 20? years worth of Uber gear. It isn't like nice items are incredibly rare. The problem is, there are items so powerful that they make other very nice objects look crappy in comparison.

In other words, you have people thinking that if it isn't Sorrow, it is crap.

[CrystalTears]

Probably because theres no point in owning 4/5 of the 'uber' 'awesome' items since the games been dulled down to where anyone can get from A-B using basic gear. You own stuff just to own stuff in GS, it's a status symbol.


Plus, you run the risk of losing 90% of your uber shit should you wish to take it into the end game.
Winners.

When you don't need hi end gear to accomplish anything in GS, everything is basically fluff. And considering that in order to go to hi end areas you have to basically locker your uber stuff for fear of losing it, it loses its luster.

I was about to go on a tangent about my complete loathing for the janitor system, but decided that would be best left for another day.

[StrayRogue]

Oh and one huge plus point for WoW is that people like Tsin do not exist.

[Danical]

Bards, in the end game, have it a bit easier than others considering they can have free 7x gear.

7x weapon with crazy high flare frequency and can't be disarmed (huge bonus)
7x armor weighing 1/4 the normal weight and elemental reduction sans impact (great for ithzir weapons, not so great for construct pinball and griffin drops).
7x shield capable of size reduction for dodge penalty

[Fallen]

To most people here, 7x wouldn't be seen as anywhere near high end.

To me, a perfect forged 7x weapon is pretty high end.

[Danical]

7x gear isn't high end by any means. However, 7x gear with really cool properties is vastly superior to 4x gear most use in OTF or Nelemar.

[Mistomeer]

Remember how Aura and Discipline used to count double? They don't anymore, prime stats do now for each profession. As for stat growth: http://lostranger.tsoran.com/gs3/

I'm pretty sure that's the same. I thought prime stats always counted double and aura and discipline counted twice. From play.net:
Physical TP
(25 + (((Aura + Discipline)/2 + Strength + Constitution + Dexterity + Agility)/20))

Mental TP
(25 + (((Aura + Discipline)/2 + Logic + Intuition + Influence + Wisdom)/20))

Aura and Discipline count twice in GS4 and prime stats count double. I'm not sure what that link you posted is referring to on stat growth, but I'm not aware of the staff changing growth to make up for the 60 lost levels in the conversion.



What's changed is that instead of one or two standard paths, we have a wide array of choices.
Choices is probably the terminology we'd disagree on. You have plenty of choices, to be sure, but if you don't make certain choices you won't be very successful at higher levels. Sure, lore is a choice for a pure, but you're going to be pretty screwed on certain spells without it.

Mistomeer's contention is that we get "less" for TPs now, as TP costs for shield for pures (for instance) have gone up. My point is that if 1 DS in IV is worth 1.5 or 2 DS in III, we can't logically compare the TP values directly across (not even taking into account all that stuff I said before).

I'm not saying there's a direct comparison. What I am saying is that I spend more TP's to be just as effective in GS4. With regards to DS, runestaffs were purposely designed to provide less DS sword/shield. Also, you haven't mentioned things like Dodge in GS4. Dodge raises DS, but also is another training requirement for semis and squares. Either way, I know that I spend more TP's per level in GS4 to have the same effectiveness I had in GS3.

[Danical]

Correct me of I'm wrong but doesn't EBP DS allow square/semi characters to hunt self-spelled or without spells at all?

No more getting 4 hours of WoF and Wiz Shield.

[Tolwynn]

No more getting 4 hours of WoF and Wiz Shield.

The revised 1.5/1 minute durations and self-cast restriction for Wizard Shield kind of took care of that for everyone, not just squares and semis.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm pretty sure that's the same. I thought prime stats always counted double and aura and discipline counted twice.It's not. Trust me. :D Or just check out this guide. http://www.tamcon.com/GS3/stat_src.html
I'm not sure what that link you posted is referring to on stat growthIt has a list of all the GIs from III and IV as well as utilities to crunch out stat growth for both environments.
I'm not aware of the staff changing growth to make up for the 60 lost levels in the conversion.I wasn't claiming that somehow this resulted in the same number of TPs as 160 levels in III. I was pointing out that comparing TPs straight across made no sense.
if you don't make certain choices you won't be very successful at higher levels.Comparing this to how in lots of III if you didn't make certain choices you would be very unviable (without reallocation!), it's hard to not weigh in on IV's side.
I'm not saying there's a direct comparison. What I am saying is that I spend more TP's to be just as effective in GS4.What I'm saying is that you're equivocating on the term "TPs", and frankly "effective" as well. If you're saying you spend more TPs on Shield Use to get the same amount of DS (which really seems like a direct comparison, btw), prerequisites for that claim are that a TP is worth the same and a point of DS is worth the same. I've demonstrated the first prong is false, and unless you can demonstrate that the DS a pure needs to muster in IV's cap areas is numerically the same as III, it's pretty obvious the second is as well.

To sum up: If you have to spend twice as many TPs (assuming for the moment that they're close enough to equivalent) per DS but only need half as much DS, have you really lost any ground? I reckon not.
Dodge raises DS, but also is another training requirement for semis and squares.Incidentally, this is absolutely false. My 3x shield warrior would be absolutely viable with 0 dodge. I give him dodge because (as I mentioned before) I had more TPs than I knew what to do with.

[StrayRogue]

Correct me of I'm wrong but doesn't EBP DS allow square/semi characters to hunt self-spelled or without spells at all?

No more getting 4 hours of WoF and Wiz Shield.

You could hunt self-spelled in GS3. Many people took pride in that fact.

[Danical]

You could hunt self-spelled in GS3. Many people took pride in that fact.

True.

I hunted w/o spells with my TWC warrior in GSIII before redux and the changes to TWC. However, my pride was far surpassed by my frustration. I got to level 14, said fuck it, and made a wizard.

I'm just pointing out that Warriors don't have nearly as much frustration now (at the risk of cheapening the challenge of hunting which you [Stray] miss). Of course, I suppose the warrior doesn't have to train in dodge or shield use thereby supplementing the challenge of hunting. Although, redux isn't what it used to be . . .

[Mistomeer]

It's not. Trust me. :D Or just check out this guide. http://www.tamcon.com/GS3/stat_src.htmlIt has a list of all the GIs from III and IV as well as utilities to crunch out stat growth for both environments.
I'll take your word for it. You were right and I was wrong on that.

I wasn't claiming that somehow this resulted in the same number of TPs as 160 levels in III. I was pointing out that comparing TPs straight across made no sense.

I wasn't trying to compare everything (TP's, skills, etc) 1:1 between GS3 and GS4, but rather saying that with the changes came more expense in terms of training.


Comparing this to how in lots of III if you didn't make certain choices you would be very unviable (without reallocation!), it's hard to not weigh in on IV's side.

I wouldn't say that reallocation and IV are the same. The first reallocation came before IV. In either case you would be unviable at older levels, but the fact is that skills like lores were supposed to add an extra bonus and be an option rather than being a requirement. That simply is not the case, at least with clerics.


What I'm saying is that you're equivocating on the term "TPs", and frankly "effective" as well. If you're saying you spend more TPs on Shield Use to get the same amount of DS (which really seems like a direct comparison, btw), prerequisites for that claim are that a TP is worth the same and a point of DS is worth the same.

I disagree. I don't think that all things there have to be equal. If I spend 1 TP to get 1 DS in III and then spend 1 TP to get 1.5 DS in IV, but I have to spend TP's on lores, SMC, and Harness Power as well, then even though I'm getting more DS, I'm still losing out in the end. That's my point, really. It's not about the return on investment, but rather the fact that you have to make a much larger investment. Sure, training in religion lore is great because my spells are extremely more powerful with it, but that's alot of TP's that I was not spending in III. Further, in III, with skills like First Aid affecting certain spells is was like getting 3 for 1. You're improving a spell, improving skinning and being able to tend. You add lore to the mix and survival and all of the sudden you have to spend alot more training points to get to that level in IV. Was it necessarily done "right" in III? Probably not, but it worked to the advantage of the player. Before lore, there were examples where the skill needed to improve a spell was a skill that the character most likely needed anyway.


I've demonstrated the first prong is false, and unless you can demonstrate that the DS a pure needs to muster in IV's cap areas is numerically the same as III, it's pretty obvious the second is as well.

It doesn't have to be the same. My argument is that if I decide on a build for a pure, then that build in III is going to be cheaper than that same build in IV. It doesn't have to be numerically equal. The requirements are going to be the same for most any build - hunt until fried without dying, more or less. It was cheaper to build this character for me in III every single time. Why? Because I didn't have to train in lore. I trained in Mana Sharing in order to boost spell effects, which I was already training at least 24 ranks in anyway and only needed to get about 60 ranks total. I was training 1x sword and 1x shield and didn't have to train in Harness Power. That's a ton of training points saved right there. Sword and shield was cheaper and no harness power to train in. Throw in some aux skills (which I need the same ranks of in IV) and whatever is left is mine to play around with. That same build in IV requires lore, harness power, and ups the cost of sword and shield, and if I really wanted to make the builds equal would require both SMC and EMC. It's really a fairly simple concept.



To sum up: If you have to spend twice as many TPs (assuming for the moment that they're close enough to equivalent) per DS but only need half as much DS, have you really lost any ground? I reckon not.Incidentally, this is absolutely false. My 3x shield warrior would be absolutely viable with 0 dodge. I give him dodge because (as I mentioned before) I had more TPs than I knew what to do with.

I'm not sure what to say to that. You say you don't need dodge at all, even though it's recommended, and then go on to say you train in it for fun. I can't argue your motivations, but the end result is that you're training in a skill that the documentation says you should train in.

[Latrinsorm]

It's not about the return on investment, but rather the fact that you have to make a much larger investment.I think what you're saying is that the recommended/required skillset represents a much larger percentage of TP expense in IV than III. It must be a cleric thing, honestly, because whenever someone asks for a generic warrior plan I can only list 4 skills that everyone needs (PF, CM (sorry mgoddess! :D), weapon, and shield OR dodge). Everything else (everything) is optional to lesser and greater degrees, and we have tons of TPs left over after the required training in those skills. Offhand, I think the OHE/shield version of that plan only costs 30/12 or something.
It's really a fairly simple concept.I think what's gotten lost is that I haven't been trying to say that every single build is better off in GSIV: rather, what I've been saying is that we have way, way more choices now. You don't really have to train sword or shield. You don't really have to train lores. If you want to be the best at everything, that is certainly impossible now, but I would contend that such a thing was never possible.
I'm not sure what to say to that. You say you don't need dodge at all, even though it's recommended, and then go on to say you train in it for fun.Suppose someone were to say to you "you have to drink 100 ounces of pure water a day to survive". As I'm sure you're aware, this is patently false. Suppose, however, you decided to drink 100 ounces of pure water anyway. Certainly, this would not be evidence that you actually did need such an exorbitant amount of water, would it?

[Sean]

how are you defining a sucessful build?

[Latrinsorm]

Continuously viable without any outside assistance (including empaths/clerics) and without Herculean efforts (a la Jinsem's 10 HP sorcerer or whatever in III).

p.s.: CAYES

[Satira]

Eric, this thread is making my brain explode.

[Mistomeer]

It must be a cleric thing, honestly, because whenever someone asks for a generic warrior plan I can only list 4 skills that everyone needs (PF, CM (sorry mgoddess! :D), weapon, and shield OR dodge).

Yeah, I was starting to think the same thing because I know the required skills for clerics have gone up. Same with other pures.

You don't really have to train sword or shield. You don't really have to train lores.
That's the thing. Going back to the goal being to hunt until fried, if you don't train in lores, it's going to make that nearly impossible. You're spending the same amount of mana per spell and doing say 2/3 the damage. Easy to see how that's going to end while hunting.

[Taernath]

There was a well thought out article on mud wimping someone posted about a decade ago that explains the slippery slope of doing things in the name of "balance", but I've since deleted it from my favorites.

Is this it?

http://www.memorableplaces.com/mudwimping.html

[Akari]

I realize that some critters can do shit to you no matter what level they are verses your level, but this is just rediculous... this is a regular nonwarding spell that should have some type of level check just like ewave, or quake... wtf

A tree spirit gestures mystically!
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
The wind knocks you off your balance and you fall over.
Your arms are forced down to your sides!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
The wind then subsides.
...wait 3 seconds.

You chuckle at a tree spirit!

The spirit whispers with a sinister voice carried on the wind!
A tree spirit tries to ensnare you!
AS: +180 vs DS: +452 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +30 = -214
A clean miss.

You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Mana Disruption...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a tree spirit.
CS: +415 - TD: +88 + CvA: +25 + d100: +27 == +379
Warding failed!
Massive internal disruption.
... 60 points of damage!
Strike to the abdomen goes right through, leaving misty trails in its wake.
The tree spirit slowly settles to the ground and begins to dissipate.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>You search the tree spirit.
It had 14 silvers on it.
You gather the remaining 14 coins.
It had a lump of grey ambergris on it!
Interesting, it carried some tree bark on it.
It had nothing else of value.
A tree spirit vanishes in a brisk wind that rips through the trees!

You mutter rediculous.

A pra'eda runs in!

A mezic hobbles in!

A pra'eda runs south.
>encum
You can't quite get comfortable, and are definitely feeling the effects of the weight you are carrying. Lightening your load could help.

that is discouraging... level 76 vs level 26? and yesturday I was knocked over by thundertrolls rushing in like 4 times in a row, then a week or so ago I was webbed by some level 4 (around that) critter... and in all accounts I was no more enumbered then during this one
It's more embarrasing and annoying then anything

[Latrinsorm]

Anecdotal evidence makes the baby Jesus cry. :(

However, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I've got a level 46 target, we just need two people who can cast Call Wind at level 66 and level 26 and a few mana batteries. Any takers?

[Stanley Burrell]

You mutter rediculous.

Stretch on break or something?

[Heshinar]

Just some thoughts.

GS3 - Silvers were tough
GS4 - I accumulated 1 million by level 10

GS3 - Leveling took longer but seemed to have more rewards
GS4 - Lord is easy

GS3 - Demonic - I liked the risk of losing my character permanently
GS4 - Ho Hum So levels slow up for a bit.

GS3 - There were many interesting things to do while leveling. Different mutant breeds
GS4 - Bard is the only interesting class. Sonics for the Win.

Just some thoughts. I would rather play in GS3 as hard as it was at times than in GS4.

[Fallen]

However, this shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I've got a level 46 target, we just need two people who can cast Call Wind at level 66 and level 26 and a few mana batteries. Any takers? >>

PT comes into play with call wind. a capped 3x PT warrior would likely have the best results against call wind.