DOJ sues FDNY

[Blazing247]

I haven't heard much about this at all, and figured it was probably fake...but no, it's real. What has this country come to? I would be completely embarrassed to be the people who initiated this lawsuit. Furthermore, the black and hispanic communities should be outraged and embarassed that such a suit is being filed on their behalf. BRAINS?!?! WE NO NEED BRAINS TO PUT WATER ON HOT FLAME!?!?

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=54808

[Rysk]

Ignorant bullshit. At least it isn't illegal to be white..... yet...

[Alfster]

I'm not going to pretend I read the WHOLE article but I don't see a real problem with the lawsuit.

"The United States alleges that the use of these examinations violates Title VII because they result in a disparate impact against black and Hispanic applicants and do not accurately determine whether an applicant will be able to perform the job of firefighter."

If they're taking an exam to get hired, and that exam doesn't reflect their job then somethings not adding up.

[Rysk]

Ok look at it from this point of view:

They are judging the intelligence of applicants, for a job which is in the field of life safety. I can see an examination for intelligence for a job that entails nothing but menial tasks being pointless. But we are talking about a job where you are licensing someone to be responsible for the lives of other humans. You should have to live up to a certain standard to get that job, I'm sorry.

The lawsuit has NOTHING to do with their race, it has to do with their intelligence level. They can't pass an exam, so they are pissed off.

[Alfster]

Ok look at it from this point of view:

They are judging the intelligence of applicants, for a job which is in the field of life safety. I can see an examination for intelligence for a job that entails nothing but menial tasks being pointless. But we are talking about a job where you are licensing someone to be responsible for the lives of other humans. You should have to live up to a certain standard to get that job, I'm sorry.

The lawsuit has NOTHING to do with their race, it has to do with their intelligence level. They can't pass an exam, so they are pissed off.

I agree with you to a point, however, in order for us to judge the test, we'd have to see what the test's content is. It'd be interesting to look over the test and see exactly what's on it.

[Rysk]

The written is very general civil service questions (reading comprehension, memorization, multiple choice) with wording for fire service. But, it's designed so that you don't need any fire experience to understand the questions.

The physical is a timed obstacle course. Not sure how the medical physical is prior to hiring.

Took this from firehouse.com, in reference to the FDNY Written. You'd think they were asking advanced calculus questions. If you don't have basic reading comprehension, or memorization skills, I'd rather not put the lives of humans in your hands. Too much room for mistakes. I really wish I had a copy of the test.

[Asha]

Blacks and hispanics just don't give a fuck about NY. That's it.

[Blazing247]

I had to take a civil service test for my job. I can tell you, from seeing several other civil service tests, they are all the same. Many states use this standard test to test for all civil service jobs (waste management, FD, PD, etc). The tests require competency with basic math (geometry, div/sub/mult/add), 8th grade spelling and reading comprehension (according to my old test prep booklet), some "common sense" questions, and a decent memory.

Examples of my test included:

1) Study 4 photo's for 1 minute each. Flip the page, and answer questions based on the photo. In picture #1, what color was the male's hair? In picture #4, what state license plate was on the vehicle? etc.

2) You are investigating a robbery. The clerk tells you that he is missing a watch, valued at $14.32, two wallets valued at $23.44 each, and a ring valued at $44.53. How much was stolen?

3) Study this map. You are at 5th avenue, and need to make it to GCS. What is the quickest route there, without violating the one way street law?

Easy, common sense questions. The problem is, you can't ask JUST questions about firefighting or police work, because the people don't know the answers as they haven't done the job yet and been to the academy. Add to this the fact that by SIMPLY BEING A MINORITY, you are given SIGNIFICANT PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BOTH AT EXAM TIME (most states give a flat + to point score, meaning if they score a 70, it's really an 80), AND ALSO AT THE FINAL DECISION PROCESS.

If you aren't smart, get yourself a fucking education. Don't dumb down the test, and jeopardize lives by putting the wrong people in place to do the job. Fucking christ.

[Alfster]

I had to take a civil service test for my job. I can tell you, from seeing several other civil service tests, they are all the same.

If they're all the same then why is only FDNY getting sued? I'd love to see a copy of the test and compare that to other FD tests across the country.

[Rysk]

For the exact reason we are talking about this... think of Fire Departments.. what do you think of? FDNY.

[Blazing247]

I'd assume because it's a landmark case. Why FDNY? Probably because they chew through so many applicants, and a fair number of them are minorities? If they win, expect every other major city to follow suit.

[Alfster]

For the exact reason we are talking about this... think of Fire Departments.. what do you think of? FDNY.

I don't. I think of hte local fire department, heh.

[Tolwynn]

The DOJ needs to sue the NBA next, I mean, look at the disproportion there!
The discrimination against Asians alone is shocking!
</sarcasm>

:duh:

[Rysk]

My point is, it's the most well known fire department nowadays due to 9/11. Why did Al Sharpton not blather about some other white girl getting released early? Because no one cares. He makes his point about prominent figures in pop culture. It's the same basic idea. If they were suing Podunk, Iowa fire department, no one would hear about it.

They are trying to draw attention to the case, to gain the support of all of those people who have a race card ready to be thrown in your face every time they need it.

[TheEschaton]

Well, the whole article is about how the FDNY is being sued, but NYPD isn't. I'm sure NYPD does a similar civil service test, I'm willing to bet FDNY's is significantly different, or there'd be a wider lawsuit against the test in general.

In many ways, this is like the literacy tests in re: voting back in the day. Like it or not, it doesn't take extreme intelligence to be a firefighter. In fact, I'd say PD work is much more cognitive. It should be a test of physical abilities, and basic ability to under firefighting procedure. Firefighters don't have to worry about things like Miranda rights, or probable cause, or racial profiling (which is where tests were held up by the Supreme Court - in police tests, because it was shown that a more intelligent person was likely to be a better cop).

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

Like it or not, it doesn't take extreme intelligence to be a firefighter.

It probably doesn't take extreme intelligence to do whatever the heck it is you do, either. In the case of the PD or FD, an ounce of common sense is worth a metric shit-ton of "I got A's in easy college courses". A firefighter needs to be constantly on the ball- they need to know flash points, auto-ignition points, a TREMENDOUS amount about CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear) hazards, significant first responder medical training, and various other things.

In fact, you pompous ass, I am willing to bet that most good firefighters have gone through more schooling post high school than you have. I know several, and they've definitely done more hours of schooling than I have with my 4 year degree. Try not to be such an ass, please.

[TheEschaton]

So do flashpoints, auti-ignitiion points, CBRN hazards....do those require discernment of a non-specific nature? No, it's simple science - you learn the flash points, and you're set. Simple rote.

A person needs to know precise legal analysis to make sure he has probable cause to search a car, or why it's important to give Miranda rights. It's a much less precise (and much more analytical) decision to make.

-TheE-

[Alfster]

Try not to be such an ass, please.

It's best to take your own advice once in a while.

[Blazing247]

I wasn't arguing that it doesn't it take a good analytical mind to do police work, in fact, I was arguing that it takes one for both police AND fire work.

The fact that you can use the words simple and rote when talking about the job of a firefighter proves how ignorant you are. I haven't done hose work, but I know it's more than "point and spray" like you make it out to be. Anyhow, we're digressing. You're an ass, but that's neither here nor there. Lawsuit is still stupid...IMO.

[TheEschaton]

Lawsuit is not stupid, IMO.

-TheE-

[Bartlett]

Seems to me that not only is the lawsuit idiotic, the law needs updating, too. The whole point of a law like this was that minority groups, black folks specifically did not have access to equal education in the years past, so there was a legal loophole to discriminate by expecting an adult to have the knowledge the base of an 8th grader when they had no access to education. I am sure someone will spew forth "That still happens!" blah blah blah. Obviously racism still exists because this lawyer is saying that minorities are retarded and shouldn't have to pass a test, but things are a far cry from what they were, and not very far from where they should be.

If the exam were exceptionally difficult, the discrimination would have no bearing on race whatsoever. If the department's test really is difficult, maybe they are getting so many applications that they wanted a way to get the more intelligent people into the profession. Turning it into a race issue is just a trump card. Unless they are handing minorities a harder test, or putting a question on there asking if they are a minority, and deducting points from the score for a yes response, it is not possible for a test to discriminate against minorities.

[Sean of the Thread]

Regardless of race if you're too stupid to pass the test than stfu. Obviously there are people that are able to pass it without a problem... if you're not one of them then you must be the problem. You have to narrow the field somehow.. it is after all a position requiring utmost responsibility.

Fireman positions are highly sought after and are extremely competitive in nature to obtain in the first place. It usually comes down to who you know not what you know in all likeliness.. and that should be more of a problem than a difficult test that some idiots cannot pass.

[Warriorbird]

Well...if presumably equally qualified applicants are more likely to get rejected if they're black or Hispanic....they might have point.

Some minorities (notice I said some, I imagine Asian and Indian kids have better access) in a city don't typically have the same access to quality education as white kids do. There's an artificial division that gets imposed between private and public education in a major city.

The classic IQ test was considered racially biased due to the lack of reference points for minorities. Things were taken for granted that more white folks would know than anybody else. It is possible here.

Now that the devil's advocate section is over...the answer is simple. FDNY probably needs to work on their diversity a tiny bit to avoid lawsuits like this. It is something you face as a large public employer. Is it racist to some degree? Probably so. Is it suspicious (and potentially dangerous in certain neighborhoods, not necessarily saying New York here...I know that the Orange County (NC) police force had no Spanish speaking employees and Carrboro, NC is mostly Hispanic) if a multi ethnic city has a nigh completely white fire department or police force? Yes it is.

[Bartlett]

I also do not read about job openings for FDNY in NH, whereas when you look for a police job anywhere in new england, the NYPD will have an add begging you to move to NY and work for the finest police department in the country. If an employer can afford to impose higher standards that will influence the safety of not only the servants doing the job, but also those who are being served, anyone who says they should accept stupider applicants is having a stupid idea

Also of note for the gonna-be lawyer types.. Just because a lawsuit looks like it can be won does not automatically qualify as being "not stupid."

[Warriorbird]

I also do not read about job openings for FDNY in NH, whereas when you look for a police job anywhere in new england, the NYPD will have an add begging you to move to NY and work for the finest police department in the country.
-Bartlett

Thanks for calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid, Bartlett. It really makes people want to respond to you.

Now... if a sister employer (the NYPD) can afford to aggressively promote being a member of it...why can't the FDNY? Maybe if they did they'd have less diversity issues and avoid racist lawsuits.

[Bartlett]

From the article that is linked at the bottom of the one posted


In a response dated April 12, city lawyers said they were disappointed in the Department of Justice stance. The city said it had instituted new hiring practices, including a recruitment campaign and a revamped written exam for firefighters.

"Consequently, we have far more African-Americans and Hispanics interested in becoming firefighters than ever before," said the city in a letter written by corporation counsel Michael Cardozo.

Kadidal said that despite such action the number of blacks in the department is still at about 3 percent, the level it was in 2002 when the first complaint was filed by the Vulcan Society.


Looks like the FDNY is reaching out specifically to minority groups. The NYPD advertising in NH could not, in any way, be described as aggressively promoting racial diversity. The point was that the NYPD has a huge need for more people in general, doesn't seem the FDNY is having the same issues (I will grant you that I do not live in NY and this is based only on the evidence available to me.)

[Warriorbird]

Well...if they have that many applicants...yet only a 3% total number...they should've worked to cover their asses a long time ago. People like Al Sharpton smell this sort of thing like sharks.

[Bartlett]

Considering the job they do, if covering their butts includes lowering the standards for minorities (discriminating against white people to un-discriminate against minorites) is unacceptable. Should this lawsuit be effective, the fact that their efforts to hire more minorities has failed, that is what they will be forced to do. The response to the lawsuit was filed in April, but I suspect that they have been doing those things since shortly after the initial complaint.

[TheEschaton]

Bartlett reminds me of the dad in American History X.

-TheE-

[Warriorbird]

Or, y'know, they could try to recruit more minorities...

[Blazing247]

Again, most civil service tests award free points to minorities and veterans. In the two states I've seen (CT and NJ), it's as much as 10 points out of 100. Veterans earned their points through service in time of war, minorities get handed out free points for being born a certain race. This is discrimination, but it's the "ok" kind of discrimination that is accepted in our backass country.

TheE, you wanting this lawsuit to not be stupid does not make it not stupid. What the fuck are you, a paralegal?

[Riltus]

The city had made some efforts toward diversity in the 1970's, but without much success.

In 1968 the FDNY test consisted of a 100 question multiple choice written exam and a qualifying physical test (meaning that the hiring list was based on the written test only, as long as the applicant passed the physical portion). The questions were basic reading comprehension, math, vocabulary etc. . The person with the highest score was placed first on the list; applicants with the same score were sorted by filing date (IIRC).

In order to qualify you had to be a high school grad, and a resident of one of the five boroughs of NYC or one of five predominantly white out-lying counties ( 2 on Long Island and 3 north of the city). There were also certain age and height restrictions.

In 1972 the city decided to try and favor NYC residents by changing the written portion of the test. To do this they included, in the 100 questions, twenty questions on NYC itself. Some were geographical (Q. "Staten Island is also known as which county?" A. Richmond) others city government related (Q. "Who is the city council president?" A. Sanford Garelik). This didn't work because the applicants living outside of the city generally only received their news info from NYC sources so that city residents gained no practical advantage.

The city began hiring off the '72 list but soon afterwards, because of financial woes, had to layoff city workers, including cops and firefighters. After a certain period of time the city began to re-hire the layed off workers and there came a time when they wanted to begin new hiring.

My recollection gets a little fuzzy here. I'm pretty sure there was a lawsuit involved but this is what happened next. The city was permitted to hire off of the '72 list with a stipulation. At least every third hiree was to be a minority member from that list regardless of their position on the list. This became known as the 1 in 3 rule. This list would have normally expired in 1976 and a new test administered, but it wasn't terminated until all qualified minority members from the list were hired.

Now things really got interesting with the next test - 1978. In order to try and diversify the FDNY membership, it was decided that instead of the list being determined by the written portion with a qualifying physical, the list would be based off of the physical portion with a qualifying written. The theory was that African-Americans would not be disadvantaged by this set-up. The written was fairly benign but the physical was a real bear. The test was so difficult that of the 35,000 original applicants, 10,000 didn't even bother to show up for it. Of the 25,000 who took the physical less than 7000 actually managed to pass and very few of them scored above 90.

So why didn't this work? First, there weren't that many minorities who applied for the test. Second, although the events that comprised the physical were public knowledge, it is unlikely that without someone connected to the fire department you wouldn't know that it would be wise to practice each of the sections.

I.e., One of the events required that you move along a ledge while faced against a wall wearing an air mask. The ledge was very narrow and it was quite easy to fall off. If you fell off you got a zero for that portion. With foreknowledge and practice you stood a good chance of completing this part quickly enough to receive at least some score. Since there were only five parts to the test, falling off the ledge meant the highest you could score was 80 on the overall test.

Ironically, this led to another lawsuit; this time filed by women. Not one woman managed to pass the physical, not even a well skilled gymast. A judge ( I believe his name was Sifton) decided that there was obviously something to this and ordered the city to re-administer another physical for the women only. Not surprisingly, many of them passed this "new" physical. Eventually, approximately 36 women were hired in the early '80's.

Needless to say there was tremendous resentment against the women by a good portion of the firefighters for this preferential treatment. The question was "if they couldn't even pass the physical how on earth would they be able to do the job, and how many people would be killed because of this?". Within a few short years most of these women found themselves with 'light-duty" positions or desk jobs. There were a few who remained in the field and proved to be quite capable firefighters and at least two that I know of passed and were promoted to the rank of lieutenant.

There are a couple of reasons that the FDNY has had so little success with integration and diversity. First, there is a strong family tradition for sons to follow fathers or other family members onto the job. This doesn't mean that the testing system favors them in any way. The tests are fairly administered, not by the Fire Department, but by NYC Civil Service. Second, and probably at least as important is that life in a firehouse is like living with a family. You eat together, sleep together, laugh and cry together and sometimes, unfortunately, die together. I can see where it would not always be attractive for a member of a minority to want to enter the almost exclusively white male-dominated world of the FDNY.

Finally, there are other drawbacks. Since it's a 24/7 operation, 365 days a year, you work nights, weekends and holidays depending on the work chart. You also don't get to pick your vacation; it too, is assigned. One year you get February and the next could be November. There is also mandatory OT which you cannot refuse. Planned to go fishing Saturday? Guess what? You gotta work OT this Saturday.

And then there is the matter of pay. The pay sucks during the first few years. Many guys take a substantial cut in pay when they take the job. You can expect to take home around 800 bucks every two weeks. With NYC cost of living that really is nothing to shout about.

How do most guys make it financially? They moonlight with second jobs. You name the occupation and there is probably a firefighter who does it. Carpenters, auto mechanics, electricians, lawyers, CPA's, small business owners and even some best selling authors can all be found within the FDNY brotherhood.

Personally, I would love to see a much more ethnically diverse firefighting roster, but the reasons why this isn't the case are much more complex than most people realize.


- retired member FDNY

[Riltus]

Again, most civil service tests award free points to minorities and veterans. In the two states I've seen (CT and NJ), it's as much as 10 points out of 100. Veterans earned their points through service in time of war, minorities get handed out free points for being born a certain race. This is discrimination, but it's the "ok" kind of discrimination that is accepted in our backass country. - Blazing247

Veterans who served during designated wartime periods had a "one-time" opportunity to use 5 points on the exam I took, and disabled veterans 10 points. We had the option to reserve those points and use them toward a promotional test or another exam if we so chose. I opted to use the points which then placed me in the top 200 on the list. AFAIK and I'm pretty certain of this, there were no race-based points for that particular test. They may have been made available for subsequent tests, but I really have no knowledge of that.

Riltus

[TheEschaton]

I'm a law student, and currently am working for the city in the DA's office, Blazing. ;)

After reading Riltus's synopsis, if it's a matter of minorities simply not applying in equal proportions, that's not lawsuit worthy.

-TheE-

[Tolwynn]

After reading Riltus's synopsis, if it's a matter of minorities simply not applying in equal proportions, that's not lawsuit worthy.

Not lawsuit worthy in the same system that sees a lawyer suing for millions over a lost pair of pants? I wouldn't hold my breath.

[TheEschaton]

yeah, well, if his case isn't thrown out of court immediately, I'd be surprised.

-TheE-

[Rysk]

Well...if presumably equally qualified applicants are more likely to get rejected if they're black or Hispanic....they might have point.

Some minorities (notice I said some, I imagine Asian and Indian kids have better access) in a city don't typically have the same access to quality education as white kids do. There's an artificial division that gets imposed between private and public education in a major city.

The classic IQ test was considered racially biased due to the lack of reference points for minorities. Things were taken for granted that more white folks would know than anybody else. It is possible here.

Now that the devil's advocate section is over...the answer is simple. FDNY probably needs to work on their diversity a tiny bit to avoid lawsuits like this. It is something you face as a large public employer. Is it racist to some degree? Probably so. Is it suspicious (and potentially dangerous in certain neighborhoods, not necessarily saying New York here...I know that the Orange County (NC) police force had no Spanish speaking employees and Carrboro, NC is mostly Hispanic) if a multi ethnic city has a nigh completely white fire department or police force? Yes it is.

This I don't believe. How many firefighters do you think went to private school? And when was the last time you saw: Prerequisite: Be White in a class registration book. If there are any issues with a division of education due to race, thats not FDNY's fault.

[thefarmer]

This I don't believe. How many firefighters do you think went to private school? And when was the last time you saw: Prerequisite: Be White in a class registration book. If there are any issues with a division of education due to race, thats not FDNY's fault.

I haven't read the article yet, but I did want to make a comment about this particular comment.


You're correct. It isn't the FDNY's fault.

Should an apartment building spend money to install elevators so they can be able to have disabled tenents?

Should that office building across the street pay to have handicapped parking and automatic doors?

In those two examples, neither building caused the disability, yet they make allowances for those with them.


If you have a business that has a large spanish-only speaking community? I would think that hiring some spanish-fluent employees would be a priority.

And I think that would apply to any business or organization. If you want to sell/recruit/etc to a particular group of people, I don't see the problem making some changes in your approach to succeed.

Granted, I'm not comparing being of a different race to having a handicap.

I am saying, though, that sometimes you need to take different steps to attract a particular group of people.

[Stanley Burrell]

Granted, I'm not comparing being of a different race to having a handicap.

They are.

Personally, I wouldn't want someone in the life saving industry so retardedly retarded that they would forget which direction "up" was when they were positioning a fire ladder.

I actually lived in part of the City where there was a serious incident of firefighters plowing through some people because they kept on blaring their sirens and going full emergency speed to get pizza (happens everywhere.)

I don't know if a jackass factor is inherently related to not functioning intelligently as is defined by passing/not passing the written part of the firefighter test. What I do know is that when push came to shove, things were usually dealt with civilly whereas the potential for human life bore the greatest significant value in the outcome of hiring.

I'd be pretty hopeful from what I've seen that the City tends to act in the best interest of the lives it's meant to save as the final byproduct of an emergency service training program. If they felt the need to give free passes to different races, genders and physical impairments because it would better the probability of a life saved in the end, then they'd probably move to sustain that motion.

I'd say that the NYFD and Department of Safety, and to a lesser degree Public Transportation and to a lesser, lesser degree, the NYPD, are usually well-equiped to kick bullshit out from the cleats of their Zoo York chuckers.

[Sean of the Thread]

Stan I thought you sobered up man?

[Rysk]

I haven't read the article yet, but I did want to make a comment about this particular comment.


You're correct. It isn't the FDNY's fault.

Should an apartment building spend money to install elevators so they can be able to have disabled tenents?

Should that office building across the street pay to have handicapped parking and automatic doors?

In those two examples, neither building caused the disability, yet they make allowances for those with them.


If you have a business that has a large spanish-only speaking community? I would think that hiring some spanish-fluent employees would be a priority.

And I think that would apply to any business or organization. If you want to sell/recruit/etc to a particular group of people, I don't see the problem making some changes in your approach to succeed.

Granted, I'm not comparing being of a different race to having a handicap.

I am saying, though, that sometimes you need to take different steps to attract a particular group of people.

I can pretty much agree with this, though I feel that hiring someone based on lingual skills over someone with a better grasp or understanding of the concepts required for the job is asinine.

Let me pose a question this way:

Would you accept a person who was in a wheelchair to be a firefighter? They cannot perform the basic duties of the job, and they cannot pass the physical exam.

While we're at it, can we change the way the SATs are scored? I'm bad at Math...and I don't think it should be counted against me when I'm applying for college. So let's just take math out of the test, and maybe add in some easier English questions so I can get into Stanford...

[Warriorbird]

Get yourself diagnosed with ADD. Then you can get all sorts of helpful and legal drugs and kinder time limits.

[Alfster]

Let me pose a question this way:

Would you accept a person who was in a wheelchair to be a firefighter? They cannot perform the basic duties of the job, and they cannot pass the physical exam.

No. And you wouldn't be sued for that either.

[thefarmer]

I can pretty much agree with this, though I feel that hiring someone based on lingual skills over someone with a better grasp or understanding of the concepts required for the job is asinine.

Let me pose a question this way:

Would you accept a person who was in a wheelchair to be a firefighter? They cannot perform the basic duties of the job, and they cannot pass the physical exam.

While we're at it, can we change the way the SATs are scored? I'm bad at Math...and I don't think it should be counted against me when I'm applying for college. So let's just take math out of the test, and maybe add in some easier English questions so I can get into Stanford...

If the Stanford governing board specifically wanted to encourage the enrollment of people who lack stellar math and english skills for, say, oh, I don't know, their sports team, and they choose to weight a particular portion of the SAT less, than I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Really, my point was that with targeting a response or reaction to specific groups of people (cultural, academical, racial, age, etc) isn't necessarily wrong or discrimatory. It can be if there aren't equal targeted responses to other groups, but as a general rule, tailoring your message or actions shouldn't be looked on as any different than putting an add for designer shoes during 'Sex and the City' instead of on Fox Sports.