HJ - A Visit to Simu

[mgoddess]

A "reporter" with MMORPG.com visits Simu and gets some info about HJ (http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?gameId=174&setView=features&loadFeature=1266&bhjs=0)

Some good tidbits of info in the article.

[Drew]

"Your Browser has Cookies Disabled

MMORPG.com requires the use of browser "cookies" to allow our site to function properly."


I don't have cookies disabled either, it's not working on any of my browsers.

[Jolena]

I just had to click the link once I got that message and it worked

[Drew]

Ahh yeah, that worked.

[Numbers]

Was about halfway through the article when I realized I was reading Simu-speak.

Doubt even a quarter of what they promise will be delivered if/when the game is actually released.

[Sean of the Thread]

Ditto.

[Blazing247]

Vaporware is a software or hardware product which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.

[Celephais]

http://images.mmorpg.com/features/1266/images/1266_2.jpg
Heh... note the darkened smashed to all fuck circle in the carpet around that dude's chair... (I guess it could be a funny shadow... but it's much funnier to think he crop circled the carpet).

http://images.mmorpg.com/features/1266/images/1266_3.jpg
Holy crap... it's Horatio Sanz!
Simu needs a manditory exercise program in the mornings or something...

Being an asshole aside, the game looks like it'll be a lot of fun, and I'm sure they're release it eventually, I'm rather glad they're taking their time and doing it right, instead of rushing things like a lot of other non-blizzard companies do (vanguard was fucking terrible because it was rushed).

[Blazing247]

I like the "Flesh Fair" poster in the background. Funny.

[SpunGirl]

I'm thinking they should have instead taken pictures of all the big-boobed "interns" we saw at Simucon in '05. Maybe they're all gone. So sad.

-K

[TheEschaton]

They DID show some big-boobed people, Spun!

By the way, if there WERE hot girls there in 2005, do you think they'd continue to work with those guys??

-TheE-

[Makkah]

I like the hidden Hasslehoff in the concept art picture...

http://mmorpg.com/image.cfm?id=1266&image=1266_4.jpg&width=800&height=600

[Celephais]

They DID show some big-boobed people, Spun!

By the way, if there WERE hot girls there in 2005, do you think they'd continue to work with those guys??

-TheE-

Are you kidding? that's the ideal work enviroment for a hot chick... all the employees there would do their work for them and all be super nice. "Hey... I'm having a little trouble with writing monks... is it okay if I have another month" *winks eyes, pushes chest out*

[Apathy]

HJ? People still believe that's going to be released? HAH

[Artha]

The bit about the graphics sounded promising.

[Kranar]

I have no idea what's going on with this game but every bit I read about it strikes me as being pretty darn amazing.

What impresses me most about the game is how extensible it is. Not only is it highly customizable, but new features can be programmed into the game on the spot which is something that no current graphical RPG can claim to do.

Of course this is just me being optimistic... for all I know Hero's Journey may never see the light of day, or when it does Simu will somehow fail to market it and it will remain nothing more than a really cool idea.

[Sean of the Thread]

But then you remember it's simu spouting the bullshit behind all that amazing talk.. and your hopes crash into the side of a very small hill.

Much like the two years average that they're behind on even the simplest promises/goals in the land of Pentium I.

[Ignot]

I'm thinking they should have instead taken pictures of all the big-boobed "interns" we saw at Simucon in '05. Maybe they're all gone. So sad.

-K

Your avatar had me cracking up.

[The Ponzzz]

Yea, the clown car vagina avatar wins!

[Kuyuk]

That dude has a mullet.


Anyone recognize those peeps from Simucons? ;p


K.

[Methais]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[AestheticDeath]

Pics of the interns please.

[Necromancer]

HJ will most certainly be released. Though I was somewhat surprised that even SIMU would be as late on it as they have been (they just opened up apps for writer GMs *groan*), I think the previous poster who expressed relief that they weren't rushing for no reason hit it on the head. Precisely because so much of the game is so dynamic and customizable from a programming standpoint, they've managed to evade a lot of the standard deadline issues developers work on.

And SIMU isn't stupid. Despite what all the lovely kids on these boards who miss absolutely no opportunity to substitute superfluously negative comments loaded with sarcasm for truth or analysis have to say, these people know how to make a game. They also know the industry incredibly well, and they've always had a good sense of where they stood in it. They know that the game won't make it if released without an extensive list of inovations that go far beyond the dull and barely-evolved 'improvements' existing designers are slapping onto tired old game design tricks.

And for those who haven't been following the game's development (all these years), it's chalked full of design systems that are incredibly perceptive and truly brilliant. (Albeit alongside a few that are a tad more ho-hum)

[Methais]

these people know how to make a game.

They also know how to ruin a good game.

[Sean of the Thread]

No lie.

[Drew]

Will all the whiney ex sorcs just STFU?

[Methais]

Are you implying that GS has improved over the years as opposed to turning to shit?

And what sorcs?

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/5/a/c/5ac9ddf0ab47d9342f45b16429193e3f.gif

[Blazing247]

And SIMU isn't stupid. Despite what all the lovely kids on these boards who miss absolutely no opportunity to substitute superfluously negative comments loaded with sarcasm for truth or analysis have to say, these people know how to make a game. They also know the industry incredibly well, and they've always had a good sense of where they stood in it.

I hope they DO actually get the game out, but my sinking suspicion is that it will turn up vaporware. In the MMORPG market, the more, the merrier IMO. Would referring to people who have no faith in Simu as "kids" = a superfluous "negative comment"? I think it may.

Also, they know WHAT industry incredibly well? Text based RPG's? And that translates into a graphical MMORPG how? Simu was one of the first, and probably the absolute best at providing a step-up to pen and paper RPG's with the release of Gemstone. That doesn't translate in any way to their ability to make a graphical MMORPG. Sorry fanboi...I mean "kid".

[Drew]

Are you implying that GS has improved over the years as opposed to turning to shit?




Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.

[Celephais]

Are you implying that GS has improved over the years as opposed to turning to shit?

I would say it has improved...


I hope they DO actually get the game out, but my sinking suspicion is that it will turn up vaporware.

Highly doubt it will, they may be pushing back the release, but that's because rushed games absolutely suck. They are doing the right thing.


Also, they know WHAT industry incredibly well? Text based RPG's? And that translates into a graphical MMORPG how? Simu was one of the first, and probably the absolute best at providing a step-up to pen and paper RPG's with the release of Gemstone. That doesn't translate in any way to their ability to make a graphical MMORPG. Sorry fanboi...I mean "kid".

Umm... how do you think this doesn't translate to MMORPGs? It certainly does. Slapping graphics over an RPG engine is really not that big a deal, they write a few shaders and hire some good texture artists and modlers, the APIs for graphical games really make it so the focus is on the gameplay and not on the graphics when designing games. The only real difference they face is dealing with spatiality (is that word?). Which again isn't a big deal (you just give all your objects cartesian coordinates, orientation and size... then just give all your attacks range).

What's left? The actual creative part, the story, the characters, the classes, all of that translates extremely well from text based RPGs.

I'm in no way a fanboy, I just see a company that isn't rushed by a bottom line like a company that has to answer to stockholders, so they'll produce something lasting and worthwhile...

[SpunGirl]

I don't see the eventual problem with HJ being the game itself, but the marketing. Simu has always shown an astonishing lack of motivation to market their product and draw in new customers. It doesn't really matter how good the game is if they can't eventually get a large base of subscription-paying customers. Of course, to do that, it actually has to come OUT, which ... yeah. Still debateable.

-K

[StrayRogue]

I was under the impression Simu had absolutely no experience with games that you have to actually buy before you play.

Plus, being in the industry at the beginning does not equate to know the industry now.

Personally this looks like it will be just another drop in the ocean compared to the thousands of other MMO's being released now or in the near future.

[Tea & Strumpets]

They also know how to ruin a good game.

You didn't enjoy the switch to GS4? But they improved so many things!!!! (if you were level 20)

[StrayRogue]

I don't see the eventual problem with HJ being the game itself, but the marketing. Simu has always shown an astonishing lack of motivation to market their product and draw in new customers. It doesn't really matter how good the game is if they can't eventually get a large base of subscription-paying customers. Of course, to do that, it actually has to come OUT, which ... yeah. Still debateable.

-K

Exactly.

Have you ever read about HJ in any PC magazine? I haven't.

Was it on show at E3? Don't think so.

Now I've heard of Warhammer Online, Conan, and a few others. WoW was being well documented for years before it ever came out. HJ has none of this, nor does it have a massive community build up from other similiar, previous games (such as Warcraft/Starcraft, Warhammer), the RPG community or the silver screen.

All it will be banking on will be that it's excellent (doubtful), and perhaps the viral nature of the net, which I again doubt will have any effect.

[Tea & Strumpets]

On topic, I don't think HJ is a priority for Simu. It seems apparent their focus is selling their game engine.

I'm sure HJ will come out eventually. I'm also relatively certain it will be populated by Gemstone players (ie. 500-1000 players at best). Simu has nowhere near the bankroll as the other gaming companies, and I'm sure their software isn't going to be superior to the other new games in 2050 when it's released.

Also....LOL at people that scoff at WoW as a kids game (pwn3d), but look forward to playing their first MMO with graphics...as long as the Role-Playing company Simu is putting out the product.

[StrayRogue]

Yeah, I think calling WoW, the most popular and the most financially successful game...ever, a kids game is pretty dumb.

Heck, it's become so large now that the top guilds are even get sponsored. Fucking insane.

[Sweets]

Hi! It's me Pollyanna with the sunny side for everything. I took a break from gemstone for a few months/years (don't quite know when I drifted off the Elanthian map) and recently returned. I know why I fell in love with gemstone again. A fresh perpective and a little tweeking of the attitude makes it a fun atmosphere to return to. I almost forgot that about the great things in game. Fun clothes, lots of towns to explore, unique looks, and great people to chat in character with. Before I left, I found I was focusing on the negative way too much. The annoying chars, some not so great changes to professions etc. It is just a game however, why was I soooo upset? Here I am having fun again and not putting in hours like I would in a job I don't like.

"I've played this character for 100to the nth and now it's ruined! Curse you all for my hobby!" Yah....kinda got a little too serious there.

I digress. I am looking very forward to the release of Hero's Journey. I have followed from time to time on it's page and still feel a thrill even after years. I am going to let my hopes get high. I am going to let myself dance back and forth like a four year old waiting. Whynot? The world won't end if it doesn't happen but I'll have a heck of a time when it does. I am drooling over the character creation process. (shivers)

I'm excited!

[Tatetrick]

From Simu's point of view, the development of components for HJ should be priority. The income from their existing MUDD's are not static, and there is not a generation after us waiting to step up and fill our spots when we grow old, die off, move on, etc..

The sales of their engine and other developed components, as well as the preperation of games for future release that meet market demand is essential if the company wishes to continue to produce revenue.

I think even Simu realizes that one prepares for the future, not the past.

[Celephais]

Have you ever read about HJ in any PC magazine? I haven't.

It's been in PC magazines.


Was it on show at E3? Don't think so.

actually it was...


Now I've heard of Warhammer Online, Conan, and a few others. WoW was being well documented for years before it ever came out. HJ has none of this, nor does it have a massive community build up from other similiar, previous games (such as Warcraft/Starcraft, Warhammer), the RPG community or the silver screen.

All it will be banking on will be that it's excellent (doubtful), and perhaps the viral nature of the net, which I again doubt will have any effect.

This is a bit more valid, but WoW's player base is not entirely former Warcraft players, it might have started that way, but the substance of the game itself is what drew in the player base. And what would you have SIMU do instead? Continue making text based games and box themselves out even further... even if it's just a stepping stone and they get a modest subscriber base, if they do it right they can continue to grow (and if they blow it they hurt their current subscriber base and anyone who would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt).

[SpunGirl]

I think if they're counting on a massive amount of LASTING (read: not one to six month) subscriptions from existing Simu customers, they're kidding themselves. Part of the draw for me with GS is that is is text-based, and I can imagine that it always will be. If I wanted to play a graphical game... well, I really don't.

Add to that the fact that there are a lot of long-time Simu players that are totally sour on the whole HJ thing. I remember paying about $250 for my ticket to my first Simucon ('04) and being all excited to hear Whatley's "keynote" speech (haha retarded move on my part) and being treated to 45 minutes of HJ screenshots while he mumbled about how cool it would be when we all got to play in six months omg!!!111one!1eleven.

I know at least three people that were excited at first and were like "omg I r HJ GM YAY." Last time I heard anything was over a year ago, when one of them woefully admitted to me that things appeared completely stalled and that they had no directives or work to do whatsoever.

-K

[Artha]

Was it on show at E3? Don't think so.
Yes it was.

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/hj/content/exclusives/e3coverage/presskit/060510_pr-e3.php

[SpunGirl]

Wasn't that exhibit part of their reasoning for not putting on a Simucon in '06? You'd think that would have been a motivation to release the game pronto... unless they plan on doing this several years in a row to keep people interested/informed on "updates."

-K

[StrayRogue]

This is a bit more valid, but WoW's player base is not entirely former Warcraft players, it might have started that way, but the substance of the game itself is what drew in the player base. And what would you have SIMU do instead? Continue making text based games and box themselves out even further... even if it's just a stepping stone and they get a modest subscriber base, if they do it right they can continue to grow (and if they blow it they hurt their current subscriber base and anyone who would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt).

It's been in no PC magazine's I pay close attention to.

And I didn't say WoW comprised of War players. Not in the least. Sure the War universe was already well rounded prior to WoW, and I'm sure there are many thousands of former War 1,2, and 3 players (along with Starcraft players) who made the move to WoW. Remember Wow had a brand name prior to actually becoming a game. It had a long history of excellent games. It was being made by Blizzard, a large and reliable company who had put out many successful games long before WoW was ever in the works. It was generating massive excitement for years long before the beta even came out. It had credibility.

Who the fuck are Simu? Sure they've been around for a long time: this means nothing though.

You mention Gemstone 3, Cyberstrike or DragonRealms to noobs in the street and they won't know what the fuck you're talking about. Mention WoW and you're more likely to get a response. Mention GS or Simu to the average Lan partier, gamer, raid member or CS junky and they still won't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Heck I'm sure if you google GS or Simu you're likely to come across this pleasant little hive of positive energy. Which really paints Simu in a good light, doesn't it.

You're mental if you think HJ will even dent the tidal force that is WoW or the other super huge MMO's. As I've said, it will be just another drop in an ever-growing ocean. I'm sure it will come out. I'm sure it will be average. I'm sure it will survive for a few years.

[CrystalTears]

If Simu thinks they can be successful with their graphic game on their Simu clientele alone, they're screwed.

And I really don't see how you can say that knowing about text games is not that far off from graphics games. You make it seem so simple. Slap on some toons in front of the text they already know and bam, a success? C'mon.

I'm not saying it's not possible that they can't make a decent game. What I am saying is that they're going to be coming in a little too late. They would have to make this game far better and cheaper than anything out there presently, and I don't see that as likely to happen.

No one knows who Simu is other than present Simu customers. Who is going to play this fabulous game, pray tell?

[Methais]

What I'd like to know is if Simu plans to hire (and you know, actually pay) full time GMs and stuff for HJ, as opposed to letting noobs from their playerbase run the game like with GS.

[Methais]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.

I guess the game improving so much over the years would explain why their playerbase is a fraction of what it used to be then, right?

[Blazing247]

"Slapping graphics over an RPG engine is really not that big a deal"


You generally seem like a somewhat intelligent person, so I'm going to let this one slide by just asking...do you have any idea why graphic's engines are such big business?

[Celephais]

It's been in no PC magazine's I pay close attention to.

I don't read any PC magazines, but I know it's had coverage... I know someone posted a thread here when it appeared in some magazine... and I seem to recall a friend of mine telling me he saw an article in one of his magazines (and told me because he knew I played GS).


And I didn't say WoW comprised of War players. Not in the least. Sure the War universe was already well rounded prior to WoW, and I'm sure there are many thousands of former War 1,2, and 3 players (along with Starcraft players) who made the move to WoW. Remember Wow had a brand name prior to actually becoming a game. It had a long history of excellent games. It was being made by Blizzard, a large and reliable company who had put out many successful games long before WoW was ever in the works. It was generating massive excitement for years long before the beta even came out. It had credibility.

I completely agree with you that SIMU does not have nearly the word of mouth that WoW had, but I'm saying that SIMU needs to take their time and do it right, they can't afford to just quickly release a hunk of crap like Sony does.


You're mental if you think HJ will even dent the tidal force that is WoW or the other super huge MMO's. As I've said, it will be just another drop in an ever-growing ocean. I'm sure it will come out. I'm sure it will be average. I'm sure it will survive for a few years.

I don't think it'll blow WoW out of the water, WoW has a good non-gamer appeal, but obviously Simu isn't trying to take over that ocean, they want to be the base for all of that oceanic growth.


"Slapping graphics over an RPG engine is really not that big a deal"

You generally seem like a somewhat intelligent person, so I'm going to let this one slide by just asking...do you have any idea why graphic's engines are such big business?

Having written low quality graphic engines myself (read: one person in spare time, basic Mario 64 type shit) I can tell you that my single biggest roadblock has always been the art, not the engine itself. The Graphics processing pipeline is rather straitforward, and any ingenuity comes in the form of good shaders, optimization (mostly culling and vertex economy) and malibility of the rules of the world. It's not the graphic engine that's a big deal, it's the physics, gameplay and management. If simu added spatial properties to all the items in GS, turning it into a crude graphical MMORPG would be rather simple (I'm under the impression I'm the only person working towards the goal of making a 3d graphical UI over GS... so you'll have to take my word that it's not a lot of work... but then again I'm more of a vaporware producer than Simu).

[Drew]

I guess the game improving so much over the years would explain why their playerbase is a fraction of what it used to be then, right?

Betamax was better than VHS yet VHS won. Just because less people use something does not mean it's worse.

[Sean of the Thread]

Betamax was better than VHS yet VHS won. Just because less people use something does not mean it's worse.

It does when it means they have to pay the bills.

HJ is doomed to failure..

[Blazing247]

It's not the graphic engine that's a big deal, it's the physics, gameplay and management.

Uh, the game engine IS what controls the physics, and renders the graphics. It's big business- look at the Quake engine. In fact, the upcoming anticipated game Crysis is probably going to make more money selling their engine than the game.

So you're saying because you've coded this little bitty game, you know how easy it is to code a game like Unreal, Quake, or Half Life? That's like saying because I can fix a radio controlled car, I can tune up a Porsche. I don't claim to know all, but I do know that you don't 'slap graphics' on anything like a piece of cake. I'm not arguing with you anymore, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Methais]

Betamax was better than VHS yet VHS won. Just because less people use something does not mean it's worse.

On an unrelated topic, are you straight Drew, or flamer Drew? I can't keep up with the X and X2 people around here.

Back on topic, GS was a lot more fun (for me, and probably most others) 10 years ago when I first started, before everything under the sun got nerfed and before anything remotely cool was centered around a pay event.

The thing that killed it the most for me was the heavy nerfing of Charge Item and Mana Leech. I think that was at least partly my fault though, but still :(

[Landrion]

It does when it means they have to pay the bills.

HJ is doomed to failure..

If a piece of shit like UO can make enough money to survive, youve got to work pretty hard to fail out.

[Skeeter]

yeah but UO had the market cornered when it came out.

[Sean of the Thread]

If a piece of shit like UO can make enough money to survive, youve got to work pretty hard to fail out.

UO was the shit.. and there was no other to combat it. They had great ideas like pvp/cvc was okay!

[Methais]

If a piece of shit like UO can make enough money to survive, youve got to work pretty hard to fail out.

Way to conveniently leave out the fact that UO had roughly 0 competition when it came out, unlike today where the MMO market is becoming so saturated that even McDonald's menu can't keep up.

[Celephais]

Uh, the game engine IS what controls the physics, and renders the graphics. It's big business- look at the Quake engine. In fact, the upcoming anticipated game Crysis is probably going to make more money selling their engine than the game.

So you're saying because you've coded this little bitty game, you know how easy it is to code a game like Unreal, Quake, or Half Life? That's like saying because I can fix a radio controlled car, I can tune up a Porsche. I don't claim to know all, but I do know that you don't 'slap graphics' on anything like a piece of cake. I'm not arguing with you anymore, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You quoted me and misread what I said at the same time... nice job. I said GRAPHICS ENGINE, not game engine. They're completely different. I said graphic engines are not overly complicated. And yes, you can slap graphics onto a mud no problem, I'm not saying you're going to suddenly have spacial perception and your characters are going to realisticly move through rooms, but it's simple enough to throw graphics onto existing physics (those physics are limited in GS, hence the graphics would be limited).

Graphic engines are really too heavily controlled by the underlying API (DirectX/XNA and OpenGL) to really be good to "sell" your own version, you can sell shaders and good occulding techniques maybe, but that's not what SIMU is doing, they're selling a game engine, and no one is arguing that game engines are easy to create, but their experience in text based RPGs translates well into game engines (physics aside), and all I'm saying is the graphic part isn't a big leap to make.

I might be making "little bitty games" but I'm curious as to your knowledge of this topic to so broadly sweep aside arguments without understanding what you're saying. I'll repeat what you seem to be arguing against "Slapping graphics over an RPG engine is really not that big a deal", and it's not...

[Apathy]

I have 3 words for you:

Duke Nukem Forever.

[Celephais]

I have 3 words for you:

Duke Nukem Forever.

I think they actually recently released a press only demo of it... which is rather unfortunate as it's the definition of vaporware... wired does an article on the 10 ten vaporware products, pretty sure duke was the #1 (followed by some star trek games, etc).

http://www.wired.com/software/softwarereviews/news/2006/12/72350

[Alfster]

http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/hj/content/exclusives/e3coverage/presskit/060510_pr-e3.php



Hero's Journey will go into beta testing later in 2006 and be launched commercially in mid-2007. Simutronics will announce retail distribution plans and local online partners at a later date.

Hahahahahah!

[Drew]

On an unrelated topic, are you straight Drew, or flamer Drew? I can't keep up with the X and X2 people around here.




Straight Drew, it was easier when gay Drew had the handle Tayre but he changed it to Drew2 a while back.



Just remember that any handles that end in "2" are flamers and the regular ones are not.

[Apotheosis]

I don't think anyone mentioned that HJ would be one helluva purchase for a company that knew how to market it right.

[SpunGirl]

Agreed, it would be good for Simu to just bundle up all the work they've done already and sell it to someone else.

-K