View Full Version : American Occupation of Iraq
Latrinsorm
11-19-2003, 11:04 PM
Taken from Jon Stewart's amazing program.
We told Iraq we would not leave until they have free elections and a new constitution!
But we'll be leaving in June.
Yes, the American occupation of Iraq will be ending in June. Except we won't actually be leaving. We will move to the status of "invited guest". I'm glad we got that Mess o Potamia taken care of.
StrayRogue
11-19-2003, 11:10 PM
Must....not.....comment....on....hypocrisy.....
Skirmisher
11-19-2003, 11:23 PM
Stay, go hit the heavy bag before you burst something.
edited to remove one too many "something"s darnit!
[Edited on 11-20-2003 by Skirmisher]
Its a fucking fiasco headed by none other than George Bush Sr.'s Mini Me. Its so fucking obvious how stupid this shit is.
Xcalibur
11-19-2003, 11:35 PM
Tell us details, i am interested, here all the informations is biased, disinformated we are.
Originally posted by Xcalibur
Tell us details, i am interested, here all the informations is biased, disinformated we are.
Perhaps because you don't live here its not as obvious. This goes waaaaay back. Back when Reagan was Pres, Bush was head of CIA, and his cousin raped the Savings and Loans.
Skirmisher
11-19-2003, 11:40 PM
Careful now Backlash, you aren't sounding too much like you're in the whole Patriot Act spirit.
Get on the team!
Or at least speak into the lamp for easier recording.
::taps his lamp:: Testing testing... yes, aliens told me all this. Yep. Wait... ::adjusts the tinfoil on his head:: Thats better.
Tendarian
11-19-2003, 11:44 PM
here all the informations is biased
Everyone here is unbiased :lol:
Skirmisher
11-19-2003, 11:46 PM
I know I am!
Xcalibur
11-19-2003, 11:56 PM
So what will happen in Irak in, let's say, 5 years?
Caiylania
11-20-2003, 06:46 PM
I want those of you who think negatively about the war in Iraq to stand face to face with families who lost someone there and tell them it was for nothing.
Skirmisher
11-20-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Caiylania
I want those of you who think negatively about the war in Iraq to stand face to face with families who lost someone there and tell them it was for nothing.
While I do support the efforts we are making in Iraq, there also has to be the ability to have an open dialogue.
The pov of some is that this really IS an action having nothing at all to do with helping anyone and solely about us oil interests.
The majority also are mad exactly because they think that american soldiers are there dying for nothing. They really are angry FOR them. The problem is that some on the opposite side twist everything that is against the military actions over there into something against the us soldiers and I dont see that as correct.
I do support our actions and give all the support and sympathy I can to the members and families of our armed forces, but also have to allow that most of those with an opposing viewpoint are not quite the abhorrent america haters they get so often painted as.
Tendarian
11-20-2003, 09:14 PM
Taken from Jon Stewart's amazing program.
We told Iraq we would not leave until they have free elections and a new constitution!
But we'll be leaving in June.
This is funny cause i was watching CSPAN2 this morning and Blair and Bush were taking questions from the media and a Brittish media person asked this question. Bush answered that if next year we need more soldiers they will put in more soldiers,if the same is needed the same will be there,if less less will be there. He also said they are training Iraqis so that he *hopes* that they will be able to take over some of the keeping Iraq safe duties (hence we could have less troops there in June).
Also one question for the UK folks on the board,they said they would have 100,000 folks protesting Bush but the numbers here said they had tens of thousands. Is that what you hear too? Bush was also asked what he thought of the protesters that hate him so. His reply was freedom is great,and that last year Iraqis didnt have the same right to protest as they did but they do now.
Artha
11-20-2003, 09:15 PM
Kicked their ass, took their gas.
Job here is done.
Chelle
11-20-2003, 09:19 PM
In the end all that matters is what they think and a poll done by the mideast people 87% feel safer now that the US removed Sadaam from power. (thats what I heard anyway) I think the bottom line here is that they are safe and that they feel safer.
GuildRat
11-20-2003, 09:23 PM
Hmm....maybe it'd take some ass-hole flying a 737 into Buckingham Palace, or Big Ben, or maybe into something important in Canada(anything important other than a hockey rink there escapes me at the moment) to get you people to actually think...damn...that could've been my sister, brother, mother, father that died because of some ass-hole 8,000 miles away.
Is it just?.....I'm thinking yea...seeing as I'm gonna be there in 90 days or so.
Artha
11-21-2003, 06:15 PM
How about thinking...'Damn, that was my father forced to watch myself and my sister and mother be raped, then shot by that nasty dictator a few miles away'?
Black Jesus
11-21-2003, 10:14 PM
don't forget though that internet message board posting liberals do in fact have all the answers.
Skirmisher
11-21-2003, 10:22 PM
Troll much?
Originally posted by Caiylania
I want those of you who think negatively about the war in Iraq to stand face to face with families who lost someone there and tell them it was for nothing.
I would say, "I would not have sent your sons, daughters, or relatives unless the UN agreed that I should."
Don't get me wrong here Caiylania. I have had, and have now, very close friends in the military. I'll always pray for them. But were I CIC, I wouldn't have gone about this like Mini Me did.
GSLeloo
11-21-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Caiylania
I want those of you who think negatively about the war in Iraq to stand face to face with families who lost someone there and tell them it was for nothing.
Weren't the deaths in Vietnam basically for nothing? I find it worse that there are people that have lost family in a war that is, to me, pointless. That's what's sad.
Originally posted by GSLeloo
Originally posted by Caiylania
I want those of you who think negatively about the war in Iraq to stand face to face with families who lost someone there and tell them it was for nothing.
Weren't the deaths in Vietnam basically for nothing? I find it worse that there are people that have lost family in a war that is, to me, pointless. That's what's sad.
Depends on who you ask.
Black Jesus
11-21-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by GSLeloo
Weren't the deaths in Vietnam basically for nothing? I find it worse that there are people that have lost family in a war that is, to me, pointless. That's what's sad.
that is because you don't know anything about it.
Skirmisher
11-21-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Black Jesus
that is because you don't know anything about it.
Well instead of simply being a smart ass, if you think she is so ignorant in this field perhaps you could enlighten her?
You can't enlighten someone on the entire Viet Nam War on an internet forum. Especially someone who knows so little about it that they belive the men who died there threw their lives away needlessly. If she seriously wants to learn something about it, I'd suggest going to your local library, or Barne's and Noble and grab up books on the Viet Nam War.
-Jack
Edited for spelling error.
[Edited on 11-22-2003 by Jack]
GSLeloo
11-21-2003, 11:30 PM
I studied Vietnam. We studied all the reasons why we went and all the events that occured. We watched several lovely videos that gave us the perfect image of Vietnam. I am not ignorant of what happened, I know the information, formulated my opinion, and believe the deaths were wrong and it didn't need to happen.
Scott
11-21-2003, 11:32 PM
Sorry Leloo, but you don't learn shit about Vietnam in a high school class. Not even your CWI class. Vietnam is a course study, it's not a week issue.
Originally posted by Gemstone101
Sorry Leloo, but you don't learn shit about Vietnam in a high school class. Not even your CWI class. Vietnam is a course study, it's not a week issue.
I doubt anyone who has been there would even say that much. Lets face it... none of us were there... doubtfully any of us were old enough at the time to understand. One thing we do all know however, it was a majorly fucked up war.
You're opinion is based on a few videos, and a week or two of study in a high school history class? I hardly considered that an informed opinion.
In the real world people die, some in accidents, some of disease, others die at the hands of their own neighbors. Those deaths have no true meaning. Some men take a stand, and fight for what is right, their deaths have meaning. Some day you will learn that the world is not a safe place, all men are not created equal, and there is no chance in hell that everyone is going to suddennly wake up one day, hug their neighbor, hold hands and walk aimlessly into the sunset together. The world isn't a bright happy shining place, and it never will be as long as people refuse to take a stand and fight to make it so.
-Jack
Originally posted by Jack
You're opinion is based on a few videos, and a week or two of study in a high school history class? I hardly considered that an informed opinion.
In the real world people die, some in accidents, some of disease, others die at the hands of their own neighbors. Those deaths have no true meaning. Some men take a stand, and fight for what is right, their deaths have meaning. Some day you will learn that the world is not a safe place, all men are not created equal, and there is no chance in hell that everyone is going to suddennly wake up one day, hug their neighbor, hold hands and walk aimlessly into the sunset together. The world isn't a bright happy shining place, and it never will be as long as people refuse to take a stand and fight to make it so.
-Jack
On the other side of the coin... holding hands and walking off into the sunset is a very possible idea, except that people like to fight...
You want to hold hands with people like Sadam? You think he would willingly do so? Do you think he would ever sit down and think to himself, "Hey, I've been wrong to gas my own citizens, to sponsor terrorism in Israel, to invade my neighbors, to allow the systematic rape and torture of an entire country. I should stop now." Do you honestly belive he would do so? The only way to save the people of Iraq is to remove him. This is what we have done.
That's not the way the world is, and all the wishes of all the liberals in the world will never make it that way. You can make yourself a doormat, allow people to walk all over you, all in the name of peace, but is that truly peace? You can fight for what is right, what is just, and remove the Sadams of the world, remove those who would stand against you, and then when your enemies stand vanquished, you will have peace.
-Jack
Latrinsorm
11-21-2003, 11:50 PM
You can fight. You can be a doormat.
Then there is a third choice. If you cannot realize it, I suggest the New Revised Standard version of the Bible, specifically the Gospels.
You'll have to point out how the gospels show you a third choice. Since turning the other cheek certainly falls under being a doormat in my book.
-Jack
Skirmisher
11-21-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Gemstone101
Sorry Leloo, but you don't learn shit about Vietnam in a high school class. Not even your CWI class. Vietnam is a course study, it's not a week issue.
Originally posted by Jack
You're opinion is based on a few videos, and a week or two of study in a high school history class? I hardly considered that an informed opinion.
Both opinions are duly noted, but I must disagree and submit that I had some excellent courses and extremely eye opening seminars/debates/lectures in my ap history course back in high school.
I agree that most generic HS history courses are anemic to say the least but do not rush to a conclusion simply because the odds are in your favor.
And sniping at a poster whose opinion you may find naive isnt a very helpful way to maintain a discussion which is why I asked that those that so vehemently disagreed with Leloo to explain why.
If you are unable to give even a paragraph as to why her opinion is so horribly off base then perhaps your own is not so well founded as you thought.
You never know, you may just make a convert out of her.
The war in Viet Nam was a political War. It was fought to put a stop to the ever growing threat of communism. After the complete defeat of the French at Dien Bein Phu (sp?) the United States became more heavily involved. Advisors were sent in, along with supplies and munitions. They armed and trained the soldiers of South Viet Nam. The intent was for them to fight their own war. They proved incapable of doing so, and the US began sending in a greater and greater number of forces. In every major battle througout the war, the forces of the Viet Cong, and North Vietnamese army were eventually defeated.
To prevent being completely wiped out, the North Vietnamese began routing their supplies and troops through Cambodia and Laos. These countries were officially off limits to US personel, and no major battles or air strikes could be sent to cut them off. This is where the Special Operations Groups often operated, sending in small squads to recon the "Ho Chi Minh Trail", and occasionally ambush the enemy forces. These men went in knowing full well that if they were captured, there would be no rescue, the Government of the United States would deny their very existance.
The pilots who flew over Norther Viet Nam were required to fly the same routes into and out of North Viet Namese air space. The targets they could hit were strictly regulated by the politicians in Washington. The capitol city, Hanoi, was off limits until the final stages of the war.
Limitations such as those mentioned allowed the North Vietnamese Army to move into South Viet Nam unmolested, and allowed supplies to be moved into and out of Hanoi without worry. This is why the North Vietnamese Army was never soundly defeated. The liberals in Washington refused to let the men on the ground fight the war, it was never fought to win. We could have soundly defeated North Viet Nam if our military was not handicapped by the politicians in Washington.
The men who went there, and gave their lives fought well. They died in an attempt to quell the spread of comunism, but were hamstringed by their own government. To say now, that they gave their lives for no reason at all is so disrespectful that I cannot even find the words to describe it.
There is much much more, but I doubt anyone here wants to read well over a thousand pages of posts regarding it. If you truly want to learn something, get a book, read it, then get another, and keep going. Take a college course dedicated to the Viet Nam War.
-Jack
Skirmisher
11-22-2003, 12:33 AM
I must admit my amazement when someone tries to say that the US was whupped in Vietnam. As Jack pointed out, in just about every major engagement the US came out on top. Even the highly touted Tet offensive was militarily a failure for the north with the Viet Cong being nearly wiped out in desperate attacks that were not in keeping with what the Viet Cong was created for. Before those of that are wont to go jumping on me yes, I will say that the intended political effect was reached by the offensive, but keep in mind I was speaking in military terms.
One excellent book I read about them was "The Tunnels of Cu Chi". That goes in depth into both sides in the fight for control of the tunnels that actually went right beneath some of the US largest bases. My admiration for the men and women on both sides was pushed to new levels after reading this particular book.
Latrinsorm
11-22-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Jack
You'll have to point out how the gospels show you a third choice. Since turning the other cheek certainly falls under being a doormat in my book.
-Jack
Quick history lesson: Ok. It's Jesus' time. The Jews are VERY into symbolism. When they slap a man, they hit him on the right cheek. Pow! You'd only hit a woman, child, or slave on the left cheek (I am NOT supporting hitting women or children, this is history). So turning the other cheek did NOT mean "I'm weak hit me again I won't stop you". It was meant to provoke a thought. It was passive resistance. The same goes with most of Jesus' examples.
This is why the Bible is dangerous. It's pretty much all out of context. This is more noticeable in your Revelations or your Isiah or Daniel, but it is more profound (not quite the right word) in the Gospels.
Originally posted by Jack
You want to hold hands with people like Sadam? You think he would willingly do so? Do you think he would ever sit down and think to himself, "Hey, I've been wrong to gas my own citizens, to sponsor terrorism in Israel, to invade my neighbors, to allow the systematic rape and torture of an entire country. I should stop now." Do you honestly belive he would do so? The only way to save the people of Iraq is to remove him. This is what we have done.
That's not the way the world is, and all the wishes of all the liberals in the world will never make it that way. You can make yourself a doormat, allow people to walk all over you, all in the name of peace, but is that truly peace? You can fight for what is right, what is just, and remove the Sadams of the world, remove those who would stand against you, and then when your enemies stand vanquished, you will have peace.
-Jack
Crap, I don't have the energey or the intellectual capacity to respond to this right now. Ok, maybe I have a glimmer of it... stop hating. I know its a tall request. Stop thinking "Us and Them". Saddam needs a lesson too.
Stop hating? Stop thinking it's us and them? Sadam needs a lesson too? A lesson in what? Do you think if you went and talked to Sadam, that he'd just back down and behave? Do you honestly belive that anything short of force would change the way he ran Iraq? The only way anything would ever change is for someone to take a stand, and remove him by force. The U.S. has done this. You can't run up and give him a hug and expect him to suddenly change his ways.
-Jack
Originally posted by Jack
Stop hating? Stop thinking it's us and them? Sadam needs a lesson too? A lesson in what? Do you think if you went and talked to Sadam, that he'd just back down and behave? Do you honestly belive that anything short of force would change the way he ran Iraq? The only way anything would ever change is for someone to take a stand, and remove him by force. The U.S. has done this. You can't run up and give him a hug and expect him to suddenly change his ways.
-Jack
Who the fuck said run up and give him a hug? Granted, what I am talking about is probably impossible in this day and age, but its something we aspire to, isn't it? Love thy neighbor? Or did I make that shit up. So we are supposed to live in a world of hate and wars. I guess you are right because obviously we do and like it that way which is what my other post was about.
It is U.S. vs Them
[Edited on 11-22-2003 by The Edine]
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