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Gan
04-25-2007, 05:36 PM
AUSTIN, Texas (CNN) -- When Emilio Gonzales lies in his mother's arms, sometimes he'll make a facial expression that his mother says is a smile.
But the nurse who's standing right next to her thinks he's grimacing in pain.

Which one it is -- an expression of happiness or of suffering -- is a crucial point in an ethical debate that has pitted the mother of a dying child against a children's hospital, and medical ethicists against each other.

Emilio is 17 months old and has a rare genetic disorder that's ravaging his central nervous system. He cannot see, speak, or eat. A ventilator breathes for him in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit at Austin Children's Hospital, where he's been since December. Without the ventilator, Emilio would die within hours.

The hospital contends that keeping Emilio alive on a ventilator is painful for the toddler and useless against his illness -- Leigh's disease, a rare degenerative disorder that has no cure.

Under Texas law, Children's has the right to withdraw life support if medical experts deem it medically inappropriate.

Emilio's mother, Catarina Gonzales, on the other hand, is fighting to keep her son on the ventilator, allowing him to die "naturally, the way God intended."

The two sides have been in and out of courts, with the next hearing scheduled for May 8.

The case, and the Texas law, have divided medical ethicists. Art Caplan, an ethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, supports the Texas law giving the hospital the right to make life or death decisions even if the family disagrees. "There are occasions when family members just don't get it right," he said. "No parent should have the right to cause suffering to a kid in a futile situation."

But Dr. Lainie Ross, a pediatrician and medical ethicist at the University of Chicago, says she thinks Emilio's mother, not the doctors, should be able to decide whether Emilio's life is worth living. "Who am I to judge what's a good quality of life?" she said. "If this were my kid, I'd have pulled the ventilator months ago, but this isn't my kid."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/04/25/baby.emilio/index.html
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I'm torn on this issue for one reason. (see HOWEVER)

I personally think that the mother, as the child's guardian, should have the final say in stopping life support. By law she is the legal guardian and is empowered to act on the child's behalf.

HOWEVER

I also do not think that parents should be allowed to continue indefinately heroic life support measures against medical advice at the cost of the tax payers without the taxpayers consent. Especially when the motivation can be judged as emotional rather than logical/factual.

This is where the legal rights of the individual trespass upon the discrimination of the poor versus rich access to healthcare.

In many cases, the parent's refusal to agree with medical consensus tends to be based more on emotional rather than logical/factual basis. Does that mean we should have the parents evaluated by a psychologist/psychiatrist?

I know if it were my child, I would be anything but objective or logical. So I might be allowing personal bias into my stance on this issue.

Thoughts? Discuss.

Bobmuhthol
04-25-2007, 05:39 PM
Lol.

If she wanted her son to die naturally, she wouldn't have him in a hospital. Fucking Mexicans.

Gan
04-25-2007, 05:45 PM
Lol.

If she wanted her son to die naturally, she wouldn't have him in a hospital. Fucking Mexicans.

wow

Davenshire
04-25-2007, 06:01 PM
Examples like this show why National health care woudn't work. Where do you draw the line?

After all the smoke clears, you'll have a bunch of people grab assing over medical care for the untreatable, and uncurable.

Seriously, learn to let go lady. Yeah it's sad and tragic. I know how I'd feel in the same situation. If she was really interested in letting the child die, "as God intended." She'd have never let the child be put on all the life support.

How come this hasn't gotten the media circus the brain dead woman in Florida received? No politicos jump on the band wagon yet?

Gan
04-25-2007, 06:04 PM
I agree that her statement wasnt 'rational' and definately did not make any sense with regards to letting the child die the way God intended, but while still on life support. Thats why I think there needs to be some check/balance to the decision.

That still does not sway my opinion that the principal right belongs to the parent. I suppose a judge would have to be the ruling authority on something like this, rather than just the doctors.

And just give the politicos time. This is just hitting the mainstream news today. ;)

I wonder if we'll see Sharpton or Jackson hop on this bandwagon???

:whistle:

TheEschaton
04-25-2007, 06:08 PM
This is different from the Schiavo case in that she could breathe on her own, she just couldn't feed herself. Starving a person to death is much different then removing them from a ventilator.

And I think she should learn to let go, and let them shut it off. She's not even of the opinion that he's somehow going to make it, she acknowledges his imminent death, and only wants to prolong his intense PAIN for the selfish reasons of giving HER more time.

IMO, completely selfish. If she wanted to be a good mother, she'd let her son's suffering stop.

-TheE-

Gan
04-25-2007, 06:19 PM
This is different from the Schiavo case in that she could breathe on her own, she just couldn't feed herself. Starving a person to death is much different then removing them from a ventilator.

And I think she should learn to let go, and let them shut it off. She's not even of the opinion that he's somehow going to make it, she acknowledges his imminent death, and only wants to prolong his intense PAIN for the selfish reasons of giving HER more time.

IMO, completely selfish. If she wanted to be a good mother, she'd let her son's suffering stop.

-TheE-

I agree that she should let the boy go. Even though the child cant demonstrate, in a recognizable manner, pain or happiness, etc. I think that the fact that its been demonstrated that there is no life without the respirator for now or forever would dictate that she faces the inevitable.

The question still stands though, do the docs have the right to overrule the mother as the law dictates? Or does the mother have the right to speak for the child?

TheEschaton
04-25-2007, 06:43 PM
Oh, from a legal standpoint....I dunno. I've never considered the question. My first instinct is that legal guardianship trumps, but there's a public policy consideration for the hospital in this situation: taxpayer's money, as cited above, and the Hippocratic oath which binds doctors to alleviate the pain and suffering of their patients.

-TheE-

Seran
04-25-2007, 09:06 PM
Her statement that she wished for her son to be continued on the ventilator so that he may die "the way God intended" is ridiculous. The child would die without the ventilator, which is wholly a device contrary to the natural order.

It's sad, but the child should be allowed to die.

radamanthys
04-25-2007, 09:13 PM
Pull the plug. That's taxpayer money for a hopeless cause. It's also cruel.

Keller
04-25-2007, 09:40 PM
I don't know that God intended anyone to breathe through artificial means. So I'm going to have to agree with Bob here.

Jazuela
04-25-2007, 09:50 PM
Debilitating terminal illness affecting the central nervous system where an infant can't eat, see, talk, or breathe, and it's incurable and guaranteed to get worse? There should be absolutely no question. Pull the plug, let the kid die in peace. As God/Nature/whatever intended.

Jolena
04-25-2007, 09:54 PM
Yes, and whatever we do, everyone join in and say 'Fucking Mexicans'.

Back
04-25-2007, 10:00 PM
Let the child enjoy the bliss of heaven, fucking mexicans.

Keller
04-25-2007, 10:05 PM
Are we making fun of fuckin' mexicans?

Back
04-25-2007, 10:05 PM
Jolena said so.

TheEschaton
04-25-2007, 10:07 PM
She must be a fuckin' Mexican.