Catholic Church ends Limbo

[Apathy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc


VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.

In a long-awaited document, the Church's International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."

The 41-page document was published on Friday by Origins, the documentary service of the U.S.-based Catholic News Service, which is part of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Pope Benedict, himself a top theologian who before his election in 2005 expressed doubts about limbo, authorized the publication of the document, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised."

The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since limbo was never part of Church doctrine, even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century.

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.

"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them)."

The Church teaches that baptism removes original sin which stains all souls since the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

"NO NEGATION OF BAPTISM"

The document stressed that its conclusions should not be interpreted as questioning original sin or "used to negate the necessity of baptism or delay the conferral of the sacrament."

Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning "border" or "edge," was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptized dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.

"People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian," the document said.

It said the study was made all the more pressing because "the number of nonbaptised infants has grown considerably, and therefore the reflection on the possibility of salvation for these infants has become urgent."

The commission's conclusions had been widely expected.

In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was "only a theological hypothesis" and "never a defined truth of faith."

In the Divine Comedy, Dante placed virtuous pagans and great classical philosophers, including Plato and Socrates, in limbo. The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, dropped the mention of limbo.



Ok, one stupid archaic concept down....only about 200 to go.

[Ignot]

So, then Hitler is in hell now? WOO HOO! GO JEWS!

[Warriorbird]

How low can you go?

[Keller]

I wish they would have said, "We're abolishing limbo. All unbaptized children go to hell as the Bible says."

[StrayRogue]

It makes me laugh that these people think that A) such a metaphysical and fantastical place existed in the first place, and that B) they are so awesomely powerful that they can end it's existence purely by their say so.

Dumbasses.

[Artha]

I don't think it's saying so much "This place doesn't exist now" as "This place never has existed."

[Apathy]

It makes me laugh that these people think that A) such a metaphysical and fantastical place existed in the first place, and that B) they are so awesomely powerful that they can end it's existence purely by their say so.

Dumbasses.

Kind of like England and its "empire." Jackass.

[StrayRogue]

Gotta love Christians who pick and choose their beliefs from the bible.

[StrayRogue]

Kind of like England and its "empire." Jackass.

Are you a fucking moron? Yes sir, I think you are.

Case in point. England had an empire. History.

England no longer has an empire. Present.

I don't see how this is the same as some Christian douchebag claiming that a magical land of pixies no longer exists considering some of the other crazy unbelieveable shit that they happen to think is real or fact. Isn't it slightly hypocritical and indicative of the Bible or all faifth in general as being FAKE when high ranking clergymen can just cut/paste whatever the fuck they want into the lore?

[TheEschaton]

It's actually quite a big thing for the Catholic Church to say they were, once upon a time, wrong. You should be happy.

Maybe this'll be the start of redressing many different wrongs, but I doubt it.

-TheE-

[Apathy]

I don't see how this is the same as some Christian douchebag claiming that a magical land of pixies no longer exists considering some of the other crazy unbelieveable shit that they happen to think is real or fact. Isn't it slightly hypocritical and indicative of the Bible or all faifth in general as being FAKE when high ranking clergymen can just cut/paste whatever the fuck they want into the lore?

Wow. What a great point. If at any time in your existence you made a mistake and later correct yourself, you are a hypocrite or conman. Thank god for smart people like you to come and educate the morons of society like me. I'd be lost without you and the queen. Oh, sorry; I meant Queen.

[Parkbandit]

Did you just call StrayRogue a Queen?

/agree

[Gan]

I remember hearing about this a month or so ago. If I remember the article correctly it expounded on the existence of Hell and Limbo as well as Heaven.

From how the article put it, its not that there's a fiery pit of flames where Satan and all his minions are running around naked with tails and pitchforks. Its that those who are going to Hell will be absence of the presence of God which is considered Hell (the absence of God). Limbo was just the big waiting room everyone's soul waits until judgement day.

Either way, I dont prescribe to its theory or notion.

Edited to add:
And yes, I've noticed a higher frequency of self rightous and snobbish vitriol with Strayrogues posts. I'm beginning to think that he's of the opinion that his shit doesnt stink and that everyone else who posts here is beneath him. Its probably due to an absence of the poon.

[Parkbandit]

I thought it was just that he is British and they have a knack for being stuck up and pretentious for no reason.

[Gan]

I thought it was just that he is British and they have a knack for being stuck up and pretentious for no reason.


You cant be stuck up and pretentious and have a mugshot like this... its just not politically correct.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/Staymugshot.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

Where does Socrates go then? Wasn't he a Limbo boy or girl, all around the Limbo world, hey let's do the Limbo Rock! All around the Limbo Clock!

Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack go over the Limbo Stick.

I apologize for the ADHD and that's all I remember, fortunately.

[Nieninque]

I thought it was just that he is British and they have a knack for being stuck up and pretentious for no reason.

Some of us have plenty of reasons to be stuck up and pretentious. Less stereotypes please :P

[Ignot]

Limbo was just the big waiting room everyone's soul waits until judgement day.

I'm beginning to think that he's of the opinion that his shit doesnt stink and that everyone else who posts here is beneath him. Its probably due to an absence of the poon.

So there is no waiting room anymoer? Just right to Heaven of Hell?

Maybe he should stop putting the poon up on a pedestal.

[Artha]

There's heaven, purgatory, hell and limbo.

Heaven is where people who haven't sinned (or who have been forgiven for their sins), who have accepted Jesus go.

Purgatory is where people who have sinned, who have accepted Jesus go. They wait here for a long, long time, and then can ascend to Heaven.

Hell is where people who have sinned, who have not accepted Jesus go. They're pretty much fucked.

Limbo was where people who haven't sinned, who haven't accepted Jesus went. It's just kind of there.

[Latrinsorm]

Accepting Jesus isn't really the dealbreaker. Isn't that weird?

[Parkbandit]

Accepting Jesus isn't really the dealbreaker. Isn't that weird?

I'm going to refrain from even responding about faith..

[Artha]

Accepting Jesus isn't really the dealbreaker. Isn't that weird?
It is for Dante, whom I have to admit is pretty much the source of most of my knowledge of Catholicism.

[Keller]

Accepting Jesus isn't really the dealbreaker. Isn't that weird?

Not nearly as weird as accepting Jesus being the dealmaker.

[Hulkein]

I don't think it's saying so much "This place doesn't exist now" as "This place never has existed."

You're talking about Straycat. He doesn't have the ability to comprehend that.

[Stretch]

Next to Solid Snake, Jesus is my favorite fictional character.

[Warriorbird]

Me and some friends of Mr. Jesus are going to California to find Pamela.

[RichardCranium]

I wish they would have said, "We're abolishing limbo. All unbaptized children go to hell as the Bible says."

Where?

[Gan]

Where?

He's poking fun at the belief of original sin and the catholic idea that children need to be babptised in order to get to heaven should they die prematurely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

I laughed because I agree with him [Keller].

[Landrion]

12 years of Catholic school does this to your thought processes. Apologies in advance.




VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.

In related news, Wizards of the coast assures us that in the Standard Cosmology of Dungeons and Dragons limbo will remain in tact and the Slaad and Githzerai will have a place to live. Acheron, however, has been removed on the basis of not being as cool as the Nine hells or the Abyss.


In a long-awaited document, the Church's International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."

I dunno, Im suspicious, I can't picture Christ using words like unduly restrictive. Sounds more like my lawyer than my savior. Im curious about the long awaited part too.


The 41-page document was published on Friday by Origins, the documentary service of the U.S.-based Catholic News Service, which is part of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Have you ever read one of the Vatican's documents? If so, you can really picture how they went on for 41 pages about this.


Pope Benedict, himself a top theologian who before his election in 2005 expressed doubts about limbo, authorized the publication of the document, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised."

After his election, Pope Benedict was able to call God directly and ask, whereas previously, he only suspected. Most people dont realize that the Pope has a special hotline to talk to God with. You'd wonder why they dont get more stuff answered this way, but the toll charges are unreal.


The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since limbo was never part of Church doctrine, even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century.

And some people wonder why Catholics pick and choose what theyre going to follow and what they wont. You should have heard the previous teachings about masturbation - thats where the going blind and hairy palms rumors came from.


"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.

If you want proof that God really exists, it clearly an expression of His infinite mercy that you didnt have to read 41 pages to get to that conclusion. Im thanking God for it as I type this.

"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them)."

Lest we think the almighty heartless,
Thomas Aquinas described the limbo of children as an eternal state of natural joy, untempered by any sense of loss at how much greater their joy might have been had they been baptized. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

The Church teaches that baptism removes original sin which stains all souls since the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.
"NO NEGATION OF BAPTISM"
The document stressed that its conclusions should not be interpreted as questioning original sin or "used to negate the necessity of baptism or delay the conferral of the sacrament."

God really hates procrastination. So while God isnt going to stick your poor dead infant into Heaven Lite, youre getting major KP duty in the celestial kitchens if you put off baptizing them.

Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning "border" or "edge," was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptized dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.

My Latin is really rusty, I answered Limbo as meaning "some bullshit we made up" on the practice exam. In the margin my teacher wrote vos es bardus, which I think means I got partial credit

"People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian," the document said.

Eternal natural joy just isnt good enough for some people.

It said the study was made all the more pressing because "the number of nonbaptised infants has grown considerably, and therefore the reflection on the possibility of salvation for these infants has become urgent."

I wonder if they marked the document urgent, you know, with one of those red stamper things.

The commission's conclusions had been widely expected.

Christ this taking a long time

In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was "only a theological hypothesis" and "never a defined truth of faith."

I guess thats better than "I told you so, neener neener".

In the Divine Comedy, Dante placed virtuous pagans and great classical philosophers, including Plato and Socrates, in limbo. The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, dropped the mention of limbo.

The Divine Comedy is fantastic reading, did you know that the bottom layer of Hell is actually cold? Im not kidding, we think of hell as fiery, but the Devil is actually waist deep in ice AND chews on Judas Iscariot, Brutus and some other guy eternally. Theyre in his mouth being chewed on! That would make a fantastic level for a first person shooter if you ask me. Of course, the Divine Comedy is not Catholic Dogma or anything, but its a great read.

[Gan]

Landrion, I find your commentary, though difficult to read (italicize or change the color of print), immensely funny.

:lol:

[Artha]

In the Divine Comedy, Dante placed virtuous pagans and great classical philosophers, including Plato and Socrates, in limbo.

Unfortunately I don't have my copy of Inferno handy, but the virtuous pagans are in the first circle of Hell [edit: Which I just looked up is called Limbo, so I guess I lose here]. It's paradisal, but they're constantly confronted with the knowledge they can never be one with God, so there's always an air of melancholy and sorrow.


The Divine Comedy is fantastic reading, did you know that the bottom layer of Hell is actually cold? Im not kidding, we think of hell as fiery, but the Devil is actually waist deep in ice
And all the sewers of the world pour down on him eternally...the Inferno's definitely the best of the trilogy.

[Landrion]

Landrion, I find your commentary, though difficult to read (italicize or change the color of print), immensely funny.

:lol:

Thank you. Im going to have to learn how to italicize someday.

Ah, that wasnt so bad. Hopefully its more fun to read now. Least I can do for anyone who was willing to go through that length.