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Methais
04-11-2007, 06:47 PM
I stumbled across this while looking for a stupid picture for that other thread. Everyone's heard of this infamous lawsuit, but I never knew anything more than "some old lady spilled coffee on herself and won a lawsuit." It's almost interesting:



"Injuries suffered:
Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on sixteen percent of her skin (Some sources say six percent). She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. Two years of treatment followed."



McDonald's Operating Procedures
"Before trial, McDonald's gave the opposing lawyer its operations and training manual, which says its coffee must be brewed at 195 to 205 degrees and held at 180 to 190 degrees for optimal taste."

Hot Water Stats
"It is easy to receive third degree burns from exposure to hot tap water, which comes from not only hot drinks and pots cooking on the stove, but from bath water. An approximate one-second exposure to 160° F water will result in third degree burns. Where the water is 130° F, an approximate half-minute exposure will result in third degree burns."

I read also that random samplings were done at other coffee shops, the hottest was 20 degrees less than McDonald's. 180 to 190 degrees is close to boiling, and far hotter than I would ever expect to get a cup of coffee. I don't think that all of the cases like this we hear about are as absurd as they sound superficially.
Comments: 225
Contest Entries: 12 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Here's more of the facts from Wikipedia (pay particular attention to the part about "attempt to settle"):

Common summary
What follows is a synthesis of the treatment of this case on popular websites and in common chain letters.
In February, 1992, Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-thru of a local McDonald's restaurant, which she then spilled on her lap. The hot coffee scalded her, and she subsequently sued McDonald's. In 1994, the jury awarded her 2.7 million dollars US in damages. The award was reduced to $480,000 by the judge. The decision was appealed by both McDonalds and Liebeck, and the parties eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

Controversy
Because this summary is frequently the only exposure to the case that the average citizen has, the case has become iconic of frivolous and outrageous lawsuits for many people, and is often used as an example of the need for tort reform in the United States legal system by those who support such reform. Opponents of tort reform argue, however, that Liebeck's recovery was just, and that the common summary omits significant, relevant information. In turn, tort reform supporters argue that the case is meritless and outrageous even with the additional information, and the omissions are not significant.

Attempt to settle and litigation
Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for US$20,000 to cover her medical costs, but the company offered only US$800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck filed suit, accusing McDonald's of "gross negligence" for selling coffee that was "unreasonably dangerous" and "defectively manufactured."
During the case it was discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180-190 degrees Fahrenheit (82-88 degrees Celsius). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Stella Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 degrees Fahrenheit (60 degrees Celsius), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's. Despite this claim, home coffee makers often reach comperable temperatures. For example, Bunn [1] mentions "the ideal brewing temperature of approximately 200°", and [2] mentions "water at 200° Fahrenheit (the ideal temperature)". Cuisinart mentions for at least one of their coffeemakers [3] that "After brewing, the heater plate will keep the coffee at about 180°-185°F".
Liebeck's attorney claims that McDonald's quality control manager testified that foods hotter than 140 degrees constituted a burn hazard, and that McDonald's coffee would burn the mouth and throat. Such testimony, if it occurred, is factually incorrect.
Testimony by witnesses for McDonald's revealed that McDonald's did not intend to reduce the heat of its coffee. However, the National Coffee Association of USA recommends that coffee be brewed at 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit and maintained at a temperature of 180-185 degrees for optimal flavor and drunk immediately. [4] Starbucks, for example, serves its coffee at this temperature, and, indeed, has been subjected to similar lawsuits for coffee spills. Most courts have dismissed these cases against Starbucks. Burger King was recently sued for an identical case of a woman spilling coffee in her lap.[5]
Documents obtained from McDonald's also showed that from 1982 to 1992, there were more than 700 complaints about the heat of McDonald's coffee, some of which resulted in injuries of varying degrees of severity. (To put this into context, this represents only one complaint per 24 million cups of coffee sold by McDonald's.)
Some of these incidents resulted in legal claims, some of which McDonald's settled, particularly when fault for the actual spill was clear.

Settlement
Applying the principles of comparative liability, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to US$160,000. In addition, they awarded her US$2.7 million in punitive damages.
However, the judge reduced punitive damages to US$480,000; thus Liebeck was awarded US$640,000 in total. Both McDonald's and Liebeck appealed, and in December 1994, the two came to a confidential settlement, the amount of which is secret, but is believed to be approximately equal to the amount of the final judgment.

Conclusion
The McDonald's coffee case is widely known, and is sometimes referred to as "the case where the old lady spilled coffee on herself, sued McDonald's and received millions of dollars." It has spawned a commonly forwarded email entitled "The Stella Awards", which consists of fabricated lawsuits that are claimed to be true. This, in turn, provided the inspiration for the True Stella Awards, a mailing list by Randy Cassingham which provides reports and commentary on actual cases within the American court system.

I might add that I don't know, of course, but I can certainly imagine a big, health-unconscious corporation like McDonalds that trafficks in artery-clogging saturated fat hiring PR people to cultivate this urban legend. The money that woman was awarded, by the way, was probably a 20 second take for McDonalds Worldwide.

http://www.freakingnews.com/stories/thread.asp?cid=30&eid=20231&page=4

Sean of the Thread
04-11-2007, 06:51 PM
Very interesting.

Danical
04-11-2007, 07:03 PM
When I was serving tables, a coworker poured a cup of coffee for a customer, which happened to be a parent. The coworker suggested she move the hot beverage away from the child. The parent said, "Don't tell me how to raise my children," which is weird since the coworker did no such thing. Kid grabs for the coffee cup and spills the coffee on itself. The parent then filed suit against the coworker/company. The parent got nothing thanks to witness reports from surrounding customers and staff. Sucks for the kid though. Fucking stupid parents. :(

vontez
04-11-2007, 07:24 PM
indeed, I studied this case in a torts class, and it is a legitimate claim. A pretty good case too.

In other news, I just bought a cup of McDonalds coffee recently, and I think they changed their coffee blend, which is a plus. That, coupled with the fact that they put my (sweetener or sugar) and cream in it for me, and that it isn't scalding hot anymore, makes their coffee an enjoyable experience now.

speaking of mcd's coffee...mmm...hashbrown and mcbacon and egg biscuit sounds good...

The Ponzzz
04-11-2007, 07:28 PM
holy fuck, best avatar ever.

Danical
04-11-2007, 07:28 PM
I'd buy it if it was fair trade. :)

LMingrone
04-11-2007, 07:58 PM
The new McDonalds coffee kicks ass btw.

Caede
04-11-2007, 09:42 PM
New McDonald's coffee is Newman's Own and it is Fair Trade. (It also stacks up against Dunkin' Donuts for taste now, which I never thought possible.)

Sean of the Thread
04-11-2007, 10:02 PM
I reallly really realllly like my own coffee. I'm never toooo satisfied having bought it somewhere but I do enjoy coffee from a gas station chain called Rally's in Florida.

Danical
04-12-2007, 12:32 AM
New McDonald's coffee is Newman's Own and it is Fair Trade. (It also stacks up against Dunkin' Donuts for taste now, which I never thought possible.)

Awesome socks. I'll give it a whirl when I travel next.

However, after watching the Alton Brown Good Eats Episode about Coffee . . . home brewed is mos def the best.

Tsa`ah
04-12-2007, 12:56 AM
Awesome socks. I'll give it a whirl when I travel next.

However, after watching the Alton Brown Good Eats Episode about Coffee . . . home brewed is mos def the best.

Eh ... I maybe stop at the arches a grand total of 3 times a year. Last week I had breakfast with dad and my little brother at the clown's shop and I wasn't that impressed with the "new" coffee. I'll stick to what I make, or one of 3 cafes in the area that don't butcher a simple process.

More on the actual topic ... I really don't care what temperature the coffee was at the time. Unless the drive through clerk dropped it in her lap, the suit was frivolous and retarded by every possible definition of the aforementioned words. She placed the coffee between her legs and drove off.

Maybe it's a man thing, but you only need to experience the burning hot sensation in your crotch once as a man before you learn not to put a container of scalding hot liquid there. If you burn yourself, it's your own stupidity.

On a side note .... Good eats is probably the best show on Food Network. Things you would probably think are impossible to prepare without a professional kitchen, Alton shows you the way.

Jazuela
04-12-2007, 09:05 AM
Totally agree with Tsa'ah. And in fact, I was surprised when I first read about the suit, that the woman didn't get a ticket for endangerment when she tried to drive with a cup of coffee wedged against her crotch. Just try putting something there - a baseball, an *empty* cup...anything of a similar size, and go driving around for awhile. See how your response times are, when you are trying to make sure the object stays put without getting crushed, while your leg moves each time you have to shift, step on the gas, move to the brakes, etc.

The woman was irresponsible not only to herself, but to anyone else she was with.

Now, if she wasn't the driver of the car, and was a passenger, she could've just held the damned cup. Or put it in the cup holder. Y'know, like most of the civilized world does when they have a cup of coffee with them in the car.

She had options. She chose not to use them, she should've gotten a big fat nothing and an equally big fat bill for wasting the court's time.

CrystalTears
04-12-2007, 09:16 AM
What she was awarded was less than originally requested because they reduced it due to her negligence with the coffee. It still does not excuse McDonalds from serving extremely hot coffee.

It shouldn't matter where it fell, the fact that it burned her to the point of blistering means that the fault should be mostly with the establishment for serving it that hot.

I don't know why they didn't just settle with her for what she originally wanted, which was just to cover medical expenses. Oh well.

Oh and she wasn't driving around with it between her lap either. This is why there was too much speculation and pointless assumptions like that because people didn't know the facts.

Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her Ford Probe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Probe), and her grandson Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. She placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald%27s_coffee_case#_note-2) Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin as she sat in the puddle of hot liquid for over 90 seconds, scalding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_%28injury%29) her thighs, buttocks, and groin

Satira
04-12-2007, 09:35 AM
I wonder how bad that scarred.

CrystalTears
04-12-2007, 09:53 AM
I wonder how bad that scarred.
Enough to be in the hospital for over a week for skin grafting and two years of treatment.

I'm sorry, you shouldn't have to go through all that for spilled coffee.

Latrinsorm
04-12-2007, 01:20 PM
the suit was frivolous and retarded by every possible definition of the aforementioned words.Except, apparently, the legal definition. :)

Skirmisher
04-12-2007, 01:40 PM
Enough to be in the hospital for over a week for skin grafting and two years of treatment.

I'm sorry, you shouldn't have to go through all that for spilled coffee.

Honestly the only thing that raised any sympathy from me in this case is her age. Had I been on the jury I would probably have awarded her medical costs and a small amount for the pain she endured even if it was mostly due to her own lack of judgment.

Who on earth puts hot coffee in a flimsy cup between their knees? Cars have these wonderful things called cupholders now.

Why don't I just juggle some chainsaws and ask the company to pay my bills when i need to reattach my hand?

Danical
04-12-2007, 01:41 PM
On a side note .... Good eats is probably the best show on Food Network. Things you would probably think are impossible to prepare without a professional kitchen, Alton shows you the way.

Good Eats FTMFW!

CrystalTears
04-12-2007, 02:00 PM
Who on earth puts hot coffee in a flimsy cup between their knees? Cars have these wonderful things called cupholders now.
Mine doesn't. And mine is the same age as the car she was in so perhaps it didn't either.

I'm not saying it was a bright thing to do, but let's say she was sipping it and it spilled on her chest and got third degree burns there, would this still be her negligence?


Why don't I just juggle some chainsaws and ask the company to pay my bills when i need to reattach my hand?
You're being irrational and I'm not going to play this game. You're smarter than that to compare being careless with power tools and getting burnt from a hot beverage.

Skirmisher
04-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Mine doesn't. And mine is the same age as the car she was in so perhaps it didn't either.

I'm not saying it was a bright thing to do, but let's say she was sipping it and it spilled on her chest and got third degree burns there, would this still be her negligence? Not that I want anyone to get burned but you make tea at home by boiling water. which is as hot or hotter than was served to this woman and people know to use caution. If such a thing is done gingerly while seated at rest in a home why should someone think it less so in an automobile? One should open/drink from a hot cup of coffee in a vehicle at their own peril or better yet not at all.



You're being irrational and I'm not going to play this game. You're smarter than that to compare being careless with power tools and getting burnt from a hot beverage.
I was not intending to be irrational but instead taking things to an extreme to make the point that behaving in a careless manner, even with a clearly dangerous product does not in any way relieve me of my own responsibility to protect myself.

CrystalTears
04-12-2007, 02:30 PM
Perhaps your own tea/coffee made at home is as hot. If the coffee/tea you make at home is as hot and you spill a substantial quantity on your lap- you'll get blisters, which just means you make your tea too hot just like McDonalds. Most people aren't that stupid though.

By the way, she was held responsible and only received 400k of the 2 million awarded because of it. The coffee was still too hot. Not sure why people want to ignore that.

Parkbandit
04-12-2007, 02:37 PM
Eh ... I maybe stop at the arches a grand total of 3 times a year. Last week I had breakfast with dad and my little brother at the clown's shop and I wasn't that impressed with the "new" coffee. I'll stick to what I make, or one of 3 cafes in the area that don't butcher a simple process.

More on the actual topic ... I really don't care what temperature the coffee was at the time. Unless the drive through clerk dropped it in her lap, the suit was frivolous and retarded by every possible definition of the aforementioned words. She placed the coffee between her legs and drove off.

Maybe it's a man thing, but you only need to experience the burning hot sensation in your crotch once as a man before you learn not to put a container of scalding hot liquid there. If you burn yourself, it's your own stupidity.

On a side note .... Good eats is probably the best show on Food Network. Things you would probably think are impossible to prepare without a professional kitchen, Alton shows you the way.

/agree with it all.

My personal favorite coffee maker is the one that uses pods. Pressure+hot water = great cup of Joe

Now.. if I could only get Dunkin Donut coffee in the pods! My life would be complete.