Should Imus lose his job?

[Tsa`ah]

On April 4th, Imus touched on the NCAA women's basketball tournament ... specifically the Rutgers/Tennessee game in which he was surprised that Tenn was able to beat Rutgers.

This was based upon his view of the Rutgers team as being "nappy headed hos." Well the description was a bit more vivid as he described them as tattooed and so fourth, vs the Tennessee description of nice and pretty.

I caught this on Mancow, and though I understand Mancow's position is one influenced by competition, I agree that freespeach aside ... this crosses the line.

Imus has a history of making overt racial comments, but this is really the first time he's just come out as blatantly racist.

So at what point do you decide that the ratings and business drawn by those ratings are not as important as the integrity of your business? Imus has been given a free pass in the past because he draws in the advertising dollar, but come on.

I think it's time Imus stops being pimped during the prime talk hours and they give him the axe or retire him to the old crotchety time slot where he's pre-recorded and heavily screened.

[Gan]

Imus needs to get out of radio. I cant stand listening to him.

[Ilvane]

Yeah, he's an idiot. I don't know why he's still on the air. Yet, Stern is still ont he air too, and I've never got his brand of radio either.

Angela

[Tsa`ah]

Yeah, he's an idiot. I don't know why he's still on the air. Yet, Stern is still ont he air too, and I've never got his brand of radio either.

Angela

I'm not defending Stern, but he had to deal with the bed he made. Stern was shock and nothing more, but he had a valid grievance when he pointed out that Oprah got free passes for content simply because of how she presented it. That's why he's in Sirus.

[ElanthianSiren]

Yes, but it's unlikely he will -- note your mention of money in your first post.

[Parkbandit]

If Imus is forced out to leave for an opinion on his own show, then we should just have government run all of our news outlets and become a communist state.

You libs crack me the fuck up.. you are the first to go on and on about free speech.. but when it's actually something you do not agree with.. then it's OMG GET HIM FIRED!!!

It's like a discussion I was having with a friend over some of the latest Rosie comments on her show. Let's be honest.. she's a really ignorant dumb skanky whore bitch.. but she's entitled to her opinion. My friend said that ABC should fire her. I was like "Why? Because she has an opinion different from yours?" Certainly.. her hatred for this country and Government makes me want to to lace a gigantic sandwich with rat poison and put it in front of her.... but she's on a program called the View and she's giving out her view on whatever subject is being discussed. The ratings for the show have never been better.. mostly because people are tuning in to hear what ignorant drivel she is selling that day.

Personally, if I owned one of the companies that is sponsoring the View, I would cut all funding for advertising.. not just for that show but for all advertising in any ABC affiliated network.

[Ilvane]

It's not a matter of being a liberal, PB. I actually understand the free speech part of it, but I don't particularly think we should have idiots out promoting that kind of language. That includes the liberals, and the conservatives, and it wouldn't matter to me if it were either as long as they were talking like that, it would be un-called for.

Angela

[Landrion]

The advertising dollar is what it is all about. Imus is running a business and makng racial epithets is playing with fire. That comment didnt draw enough attention to get him fired, but we've seen previous jockeys say something bad enough to do just that. The greaseman comes immediately to mind.

The issue of firing talks more to capitalism than to civil liberty. If we were talking about the FCC fining his station, thats liberty. If we're talking about sponsors pulling dollars and his station firing him thats a free market.

If I go and do something that costs my company a lot of money, I might be fired too. In this case, apparently it didnt. Now one might ask, should those comments cause his sponsors to pull? Probably not, being provocative is part of his business. It would probably be better to send in a warning letter to the effect of "Your comments were embarrassing to us as your sponsor and have made us consider ending our support".

But again, thats not free speach, thats not communism or democracy. Thats an employee making a bad business decision and his company deciding whether they want to eat the penalties of that decision, risk future penalties or terminate him. Thats free market at work.

[TheEschaton]

OMFG, I agree with PB. Kill me now.


If you don't like what he says, boycott his show (which I believe the NABJ is planning on doing). Tell people to tune out, and why to tune out. Put pressure on his sponsors to cut advertising, whatever.

Don't censor him. Let the world hear what a stupid, racist fuck he is, and hopefully they'll self-censor.

The difference is when his speech becomes violent, and says we should kill nappy-headed hos, instead of comparing their prettiness to another team.

-TheE-

[Landrion]

OMFG, I agree with PB. Kill me now.
-TheE-

That explains the email I just got from Lucifer complaining about the wind chill.

[ElanthianSiren]

If you don't like what he says, boycott his show (which I believe the NABJ is planning on doing). Tell people to tune out, and why to tune out. Put pressure on his sponsors to cut advertising, whatever.

Don't censor him. Let the world hear what a stupid, racist fuck he is, and hopefully they'll self-censor.

-TheE-

Right, so in general, he should be fired by the fact that most reasonable people should be irritated and think what he said was unexcusable in the 21st century. That should translate into lower revenues garnered by the advertisers as potential customers stop tuning in, a pull of those funds, and an eventual review of his contract. Where's the conflict?

I don't agree with picketting the radio station as Al Sharpton did, but that reasoning is hell and gone from government censorship. It's playing economics, which is the name of the game :shrug:

[Ilvane]

OMFG, I agree with PB. Kill me now.-TheE-

Happenned to me last week..scary stuff going on..

[DeV]

If you don't like what he says, boycott his show (which I believe the NABJ is planning on doing). Tell people to tune out, and why to tune out. Put pressure on his sponsors to cut advertising, whatever.

-TheE-It pains me, but I agree 100%.

On second thought, OMG, duh! An old, crusty, one foot in the grave man insulting young, accomplished women. Now that's entertainment. And to think I almost forgot how much fun casual racism/sexism was.

[Anebriated]

DeV WRU? My rogue needs a partner in crime!

[DeV]

Finally getting around to enjoying the end game content in Wow and haven't looked back yet. :( I'm bad, I know! I'll come around at some point, don't lose faith in me.

[Anebriated]

:(

[Gan]

If Imus is forced out to leave for an opinion on his own show, then we should just have government run all of our news outlets and become a communist state.

You libs crack me the fuck up.. you are the first to go on and on about free speech.. but when it's actually something you do not agree with.. then it's OMG GET HIM FIRED!!!

It's like a discussion I was having with a friend over some of the latest Rosie comments on her show. Let's be honest.. she's a really ignorant dumb skanky whore bitch.. but she's entitled to her opinion. My friend said that ABC should fire her. I was like "Why? Because she has an opinion different from yours?" Certainly.. her hatred for this country and Government makes me want to to lace a gigantic sandwich with rat poison and put it in front of her.... but she's on a program called the View and she's giving out her view on whatever subject is being discussed. The ratings for the show have never been better.. mostly because people are tuning in to hear what ignorant drivel she is selling that day.

Personally, if I owned one of the companies that is sponsoring the View, I would cut all funding for advertising.. not just for that show but for all advertising in any ABC affiliated network.

Its not that I'm supporting his removal for voicing his opinion. However, (since I'm not a lib...) I think he should not have labeled a group of people "nappy headed hos" when he does not even know them first hand. At the very least, because it was publically voiced over his radio show, the people he insulted/defamed have a grievance. He could have chosen his words more strategically and pulled this off without issue - but he didnt. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. I personally dislike his show because I cant stand listening to him. His voice drives me batty and some of his views I find idiotic.

I have the same 'view' of Rosie you do though. If we are to allow people to start voicing their own opinions then it needs to be open game or not at all. This allowing some and not others tends to create double standars.

[Liberi Fatali]

This was based upon his view of the Rutgers team as being "nappy headed hos." Well the description was a bit more vivid as he described them as tattooed and so fourth, vs the Tennessee description of nice and pretty.

Imus has a history of making overt racial comments, but this is really the first time he's just come out as blatantly racist.


How does anyone see this as racist? If anything, the way in which YOU folks are perceiving it is the racist aspect of the entire thing. Nappy hair does not automatically equal "black woman". I know plenty of white people that have nappy hair. It is because YOU, the perceiver, associate nappy hair with black people that you deem it racist. From what Tsa'ah posted, I see no racist comments -- merely comments on appearance. That's like me calling Sean2/PB fat and getting slammed as a racist.

We may accept a limitation on our actions but never, under NO circumstances, must we accept restriction on our thinking.

[Anebriated]

Whether its deemed racist or not I think the comment is something that would have been better off not being stated. If for no other reason than to just respect the college kids playing a game they love, successfully. Theres no reason he should be demeaning them or making comments to them in general that arent related to the game.

Its not Rush vs McNabb part 2 but out of respect for those playing the game it shouldnt have been said.

[TheEschaton]

Yanno, Tabor kind of scares me.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

I think Liberi Fatali just wants to bring porchmonkey back.

(5 cool points if you get the reference).
(http://forum.gsplayers.com/member.php?u=1161)

[TheEschaton]

My grandmother called me a porch monkey all the time! It's a term of endearment!

Funniest part of the whole movie, IMO. Donkey fucking? No thanks.

-TheE-

[Anebriated]

great movie.

[Parkbandit]

Nappy hair does not automatically equal "black woman". I know plenty of white people that have nappy hair. It is because YOU, the perceiver, associate nappy hair with black people that you deem it racist.



http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Taboring.jpg

[Jesuit]

Well if Jesse Jackson can get away with calling New York hymietown, Imus can get away with calling someone whatever he wants.

[Skirmisher]

How does anyone see this as racist? If anything, the way in which YOU folks are perceiving it is the racist aspect of the entire thing. Nappy hair does not automatically equal "black woman". I know plenty of white people that have nappy hair. It is because YOU, the perceiver, associate nappy hair with black people that you deem it racist. From what Tsa'ah posted, I see no racist comments -- merely comments on appearance. That's like me calling Sean2/PB fat and getting slammed as a racist.

We may accept a limitation on our actions but never, under NO circumstances, must we accept restriction on our thinking.

The comedy factor of you of all people thinking you can enter a discussion about race and expect to be taken seriously is off the charts.

[Skirmisher]

I'm not a fan or listener of Imus but was surprised to hear that he said that.

One would think that he would have apologized the next day if he really felt any sort of regret over his remarks.

I mean what the hell? Way to take away from the accomplishments of the first Rutgers team to play for a national title in a long time.

[Anebriated]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/09/imus.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- Don Imus took a seat on the other side of the microphone Monday, appearing on the Rev. Al Sharpton's radio show and enduring more criticism for his offensive comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team.

Imus issued another apology for referring to members of the team as "nappy-headed hos." Sharpton called the comments "abominable" and "racist" and repeated his demand that Imus be fired.

"Our agenda is to be funny and sometimes we go too far. And this time we went way too far," Imus told Sharpton.

Earlier Monday, on his own radio show, Imus called himself "a good person" who made a bad mistake. (Watch the backlash against Imus Video)

"Here's what I've learned: that you can't make fun of everybody, because some people don't deserve it," he said. "And because the climate on this program has been what it's been for 30 years doesn't mean it's going to be what it's been for the next five years or whatever."

Imus said he was "embarrassed" by the remarks. He said he had made the comments in the course of "trying to be funny," but he was not trying to excuse them.

"I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person, but I said a bad thing. But these young women deserve to know it was not said with malice," he said.

He pointed to his involvement with the Imus Ranch, a cattle farm for children with cancer and blood disorders in Ribera, New Mexico. Ten percent of the children who come to the ranch are black, he added.

"I'm not a white man who doesn't know any African-Americans," he said.

Imus said he hoped to meet the players and their parents and coaches, and he said he was grateful that he was scheduled to appear on Sharpton's show.

"It's not going to be easy, but I'm not looking for it to be easy," Imus said.

Imus made the now infamous remark during his show Wednesday.

The Rutgers team, which includes eight black women, had lost the day before in the NCAA women's championship game. Imus was speaking with producer Bernard McGuirk about the game when the exchange began on "Imus in the Morning," which is broadcast to millions of people on more than 70 stations and MSNBC.

"That's some rough girls from Rutgers," Imus said. "Man, they got tattoos ..."

"Some hardcore hos," McGuirk said.

"That's some nappy-headed hos there, I'm going to tell you that," Imus said.

Imus also apologized on the air Friday, but his mea culpa has not quieted the uproar.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson and about 50 people marched Monday outside Chicago's NBC tower to protest Imus' comments, and an NAACP official called for the broadcaster's ouster.

James E. Harris, president of the New Jersey chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, demanded Sunday that Imus "resign or be terminated immediately."

Allison Gollust, a spokeswoman for MSNBC, said the network considers Imus' comments "deplorable" and is reviewing the matter.

Karen Mateo, a spokeswoman for CBS Radio -- Imus' employer and the owner of his New York radio home, WFAN-AM -- said the company was "disappointed" in Imus' actions and characterized his comments as "completely inappropriate."

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Parkbandit]

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson calling anyone a racist is a fucking joke. Those two are the biggest racists I can think of.

[Anebriated]

Yeah they pretty much take racism 1 step forward then 2 steps back. The first step of removing racism is going to be removing the 'grey area' of what can and cant be said about each race/religion/etc...

[Hulkein]

I hate that these two jackasses get their name in the news every time a black person is insulted (or perceived to be insulted).

[Sean]

I think we're all missing the most important aspect of this whole thing... how the hell did Women's NCAA Final Four bump baseball from ESPN to ESPN2!

[Liberi Fatali]

Yeah they pretty much take racism 1 step forward then 2 steps back. The first step of removing racism is going to be removing the 'grey area' of what can and cant be said about each race/religion/etc...

I'm thoroughly impressed at your usage of grey.

Gray is a color. Grey is a colour. Nice choice.

[Anebriated]

You might also be impressed at my lack of caring

[Liberi Fatali]

You might also be impressed at my lack of caring

Well, I thus retract my statement and move to call you a fucking willy wanking wiss-hog. I saw what you and Parnell were doing, by the way.

Grey really is the proper spelling, though -- I still admire you for using it. :)

[CrystalTears]

Grey is the variant of gray, not the other way around. It doesn't really matter though, they both work the same way.

As far as the topic is concerned, I can't believe people are asking for him to get fired. Holy shit. If people got fired the second they said something inappropriate, we'd all be on unemployed.

[Anebriated]

Who is parnell?

btw i thought you were being sarcastic when commenting on my usage of 'grey'. i didnt really put any thought into which version i used...

[Liberi Fatali]

Who is parnell?

btw i thought you were being sarcastic when commenting on my usage of 'grey'. i didnt really put any thought into which version i used...

Haa, it's a joke that no one will comprehend but one person, sadly (which begs the question of why I used it).

No, no, dear sir, I was being quite serious when I was sending you my compliments on the usage. Most people in the States use gray -- rightfully so. Grey is the British/Irish/Europe spelling.

Perhaps, however, we should be discussing the various colours of black to be relevent in this thread. I'm afraid to use the Spanish one -- I may be deemed a racist?!

[CrystalTears]

Don't you have a worm or frog to dissect somewhere?

[Liberi Fatali]

Don't you have a worm or frog to dissect somewhere?

I realise you did not intend to ask that question and so I will overlook it.

[Anebriated]

My first roommate in college was named Mark Grey, been getting it wrong ever since.

[Gan]

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson calling anyone a racist is a fucking joke. Those two are the biggest racists I can think of.

Plz quit saying what I'm thinking, before I can say it. Its a bit unnerving.

Thx. :(

[Daniel]

I use grey.

[TheEschaton]

I use grey as well.

And, at the risk of having to give up my ACLU card, I do find Al Sharpton and the Rev. Jackson to be somewhat asshat-like. The only thing either has going for him is that the latter was supposedly one of Dr. King's proteges. Apple fell far from that fucking tree.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Jackson and Sharpton use racial blackmail to get the money they need. It's a sick fucking practice that they've perfected.

I hope they both die horrible deaths... I would laugh. Alot.

[Stretch]

Al Sharpton is not the emperor of black people!

[Back]

Jackson and Sharpton use racial blackmail to get the money they need. It's a sick fucking practice that they've perfected.

I hope they both die horrible deaths... I would laugh. Alot.

Man, are you trying to crash the PC Corner with statements like that?

Not long ago HuffPo was brought to media attention for some random commenter saying something about having hoped Cheney ill will. We don't have the bandwidth to support maniacs like you.

[Mabus]

To me the whole Imus thing is way overblown.

He is an entertainer (how good is up to debate) that uses his form of humor to poke fun at the world for people stuck in traffic. While the comment is certainly "insensitive" it is not outside the bounds of modern comedy to use such slurs.

He called VP Cheney a "war criminal" then interviewed him a while later, for example. Rich white men with corporate ties did not rise up and protest him. They realized Imus is a half-assed DJ trying to keep his job and let it go.

Where is the outcry for Carlos Mencia or Dave Chappell when they use the same type of humor in their entertainment?

Will Jackson and Sharpton call for people of every race to stop making fun of all others, or just at those that utter possible slights to the groups they believe keep them in power?

Imus should be thrashed for being a wimp. He should just have said "Listen, I do improvisational comedy entertainment on the radio. Sometimes it is good, sometimes bad. Don't like it? Don't listen." Instead he goes on his apology tour which fans the flames. No guts.

Whether he is fired or not is ultimately a business decision by those that he is contracted with. In the end it will be dollars that decide whether the companies keep him, and not their sensitivity to racial groups.

[Liberi Fatali]

Al Sharpton is not the emperor of black people!

He told my dad he was!

[Parkbandit]

Man, are you trying to crash the PC Corner with statements like that?

Not long ago HuffPo was brought to media attention for some random commenter saying something about having hoped Cheney ill will. We don't have the bandwidth to support maniacs like you.

Stick with the topic dipshit.. you aren't even funny when you try to be.

Which is sad.

[Back]

Stick with the topic dipshit.. you aren't even funny when you try to be.

Which is sad.

rofl @ topic monitor.

Are you cranky because you lost your pacifier? Poor baby.

[Parkbandit]

rofl @ topic monitor.

Are you cranky because you lost your pacifier? Poor baby.

First I'm old.. then I'm a baby.

Perhaps you should work on one insult.. try to master it.. before moving onto another one.

[Back]

First I'm old.. then I'm a baby.

Perhaps you should work on one insult.. try to master it.. before moving onto another one.

Perhaps you should stick to the issues instead of dodging them with character attacks.

[Hulkein]

I figure I'll break up the back and forth with something worthwhile: MSNBC suspended their simulcast of Imus for two weeks.

[Warriorbird]

I don't think Sharpton or Jackson being racist really has anything to do with what Imus did. It is a decision of his stations what happens to him. If he lost advertiser revenue or listeners due to the comments he has every reason to be fired. If not? They can play what they want as long as it doesn't violate FCC rules.

[Parkbandit]

Perhaps you should stick to the issues instead of dodging them with character attacks.


rofl @ topic monitor.

Are you cranky because you lost your pacifier? Poor baby.


http://www.hypocrite.com/

[Parkbandit]

I don't think Sharpton or Jackson being racist really has anything to do with what Imus did. It is a decision of his stations what happens to him. If he lost advertiser revenue or listeners due to the comments he has every reason to be fired. If not? They can play what they want as long as it doesn't violate FCC rules.

/agree

MSNBC is a business.. if he is causing them to lose money, then there should be some punishment, up to and including dismissal.

[Tsa`ah]

If Imus is forced out to leave for an opinion on his own show, then we should just have government run all of our news outlets and become a communist state.

You libs crack me the fuck up.. you are the first to go on and on about free speech.. but when it's actually something you do not agree with.. then it's OMG GET HIM FIRED!!!

Government intervention was never mentioned until your post. I don't think Uncle Sam should have much, if any, authority over what's on the air waves unless it's a matter of national security or some form of insurrection.


It's like a discussion I was having with a friend over some of the latest Rosie comments on her show. Let's be honest.. she's a really ignorant dumb skanky whore bitch.. but she's entitled to her opinion. My friend said that ABC should fire her. I was like "Why? Because she has an opinion different from yours?" Certainly.. her hatred for this country and Government makes me want to to lace a gigantic sandwich with rat poison and put it in front of her.... but she's on a program called the View and she's giving out her view on whatever subject is being discussed. The ratings for the show have never been better.. mostly because people are tuning in to hear what ignorant drivel she is selling that day.

Ignorant opinions and racists insults are horses of differing colors. Ignorant opinions litter the air waves, internet, and printed media to the point where you can't escape them.

ABC placing Rosie on the view was probably the smartest short term decision they could make. In the long term however, well it will lead to the show getting cancelled or her getting canned. A repeat of history if you will simply because advertisers will begin to pull out and the audience will tire of it.

While Imus is also a wind bag who blows a bunch of crap simply for the sake of ratings, he has crossed the line more than once in the past. Personally I think he's a racist in denial. He tells himself over and over again that he's not and that's enough for him ... his words on the other hand tell a different story.

Is being racist enough to lose your job? Not if you keep your beliefs to yourself and refrain from vocalizing or acting on them.


Personally, if I owned one of the companies that is sponsoring the View, I would cut all funding for advertising.. not just for that show but for all advertising in any ABC affiliated network.

So in essence, if The View was transposed with Imus ... you would agree.

However ... as a business owner I'd have to call shenanigans on the comment. If the advertising dollars worked in the best interest of your company and there was no threat of boycott, you'd just bitch about it and maybe pressure the network to tone down the ignorance. I personally wouldn't pull my advertising dollar over the ignorance of the personalities so long as it wasn't hurting my revenue and I got what I paid for. I do have employees to think about and the success of a business. If my advertising dollars were tied up in programming with racist rhetoric ... I would pull not only out of principal but also because of how badly that would reflect upon my business.

[CrystalTears]

Imus gets a two-week suspension. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070410/ap_en_ot/imus_protests)

[Ignot]

In all fairness, their hair was nappy.

[Back]

An interesting comment from a friend of mine.


Actually, I’ve heard worse statements made by Chris Rock, Richard Prior and the Kings of Comedy—about black folks as well as white folks. But for some reason, we consider their material funny. I’ll confess that when I hear Imus’ remarks, I chuckled to myself long enough to see that black folks weren’t laughing. And for a minute, I joined the indignation frenzy.

The controversy surrounding Imus made me think about the way and frequency in which African-American comics choose their words to rank on other African-Americans and white folks too, for that matter. Perhaps we have emboldened the Imus’ of the world. If we have, then in effect, African-Americans are enablers of Imusian statements. The paradox is that we are appalled when we hear the same rhetoric coming out of the mouths of non-African Americans—yet laugh our asses off when Chris Rock makes a similar statement.

Bill Cosby was right, we reap what we sew. If Imus makes that case, then what?

------------------------------------------

Was it just typical sports smack talk or real racial prejudice? I’m no fan of Imus myself, but recently it seems that we as a society have been getting beyond that politically correct edge with some understanding that we can get past it and we are better for it if we do.

[Apathy]

Maybe we consider them funny because their comedians telling jokes not some fugly old white guy spitting out insults to be mean...just a thought...

[CrystalTears]

Imus was stating it as a joke and to stir emotion. BFD. No one, probably not even his regular listeners, take him literally. They hear him, laugh it off, and say wow that was wrong.

Why the hell should these people give a shit what this jerk has to say about them anyway? Who cares what a crusty old white man on a radio show says about someone? He did it to be funny, and it was wrong. That was the extent of it.

All this did was give him a bigger audience now. Even though he got suspended, he still won.

[Parkbandit]

It's been blown so far out of proportion by the likes of Jackson and Sharpton, that Imus will no doubt be fired. They are using racial blackmail to the sponsors to get them to drop ads.. which will lead to his firing.

[CrystalTears]

If his ratings are still high when he returns, I'm betting he won't get fired.

[Parkbandit]

His ratings haven't been high in years.

Put a fork in him.. he's done. He won't be returning.

[CrystalTears]

Considering that quite a few people had no clue who this guy was until this stunt, I think it may boost things for him. I'm just saying...

[Sean of the Thread]

How the hell did people not know who he was? That's like not knowing about Burger King.

[Daniel]

It's been blown so far out of proportion by the likes of Jackson and Sharpton, that Imus will no doubt be fired. They are using racial blackmail to the sponsors to get them to drop ads.. which will lead to his firing.

How exactly has it been blown out of proportion?

and I wouldn't call it racial "Blackmailing" when he said an obviously racist statement.

[Gan]

I've been watching this unfold, and of course watching all those who are prone to jump into controversies like this do so... but I have a question.

Here's the transcript (per Elrodin's earlier post) of what was said...


"That's some rough girls from Rutgers," Imus said. "Man, they got tattoos ..."

"Some hardcore hos," McGuirk said.

"That's some nappy-headed hos there, I'm going to tell you that," Imus said.

While I have no doubt as to the stupidity of calling a group of women, whome he has never met nor associated with, what he did...

But where is the racial slur in this???

Ive never considered the phrase "nappy" or "nappy headed" or "ho" a racial derrogatory. Not even when you combine all 3 words or phrases.

Am I missing something?

[CrystalTears]

(Ugh! Stupid editing and quick reply not working.)

Nappy is I guess when combining it with ho since that's a derogatory word.

From Wikipedia...
Natural hair, black hair, and afro-textured hair are terms used mainly by Western people of African descent to refer to the texture of African hair which has not been altered chemically (by perming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_wave), relaxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxer), straightening, bleaching or coloring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_coloring)). (Not all people of African descent have naturally afro-textured hair, including many North Africans.) Adjectives such as “hard”, “kinky”, “nappy,” or “woolly” may also be used to describe natural hair. This hair is typically tightly coiled and coarse to the touch.

[Gan]

I guess I always understood nappy to be defined as 'nasty'. Not in relation to hair texture. (see urban dictionary 'nappy' defs 6,9,14,15,17...etc.)

Allrighty then.

[Daniel]

I guess I always understood nappy to be defined as 'nasty'. Not in relation to hair texture. (see urban dictionary 'nappy' defs 6,9,14,15,17...etc.)

Allrighty then.


Racist.

(P.s. Now you know)

[Parkbandit]

Had this been a black radio personality and had he said "White cracker hos":

1) Would it be considered racist?
2) Would there be any outrage from anyone?
3) Would it even make the morning news?


While I agree that the comments were racist, stupid and ignorant.. Imus has a long standing history of saying stupid, racist and ignorant things. Why all of a sudden is there this huge outrage? And holy fucking shit.. if I don't blow a blood vessel in my head when I hear one of the basketball players saying she will be scarred for life from these comments.... WHAT? For life? Give me a fucking break.

I hope there will be even close to the same outrage over the entire white lacross team being railroaded for rape by an idiot DA and a real life ho. I doubt it though...

[Parkbandit]

Thank you.

Imus fired from MSNBC.

I hated Imus for his political views... but he didn't deserve this.

His CBS radio program will follow soon.

[Jazuela]

Here's why:

From the AP wire:


The network's decision came after a growing list of sponsors -- including American Express Co., Staples Inc., Procter & Gamble Co., and General Motors Corp. -- said they were pulling ads from Imus' show for the indefinite future.

When AmEx, P&G, and GM pull out their funding, you can pretty much say good-bye to your show - and probably your career as well. It doesn't even really matter if the guy offended only this or that group of people. What matters is the money. No money - no salary. That's just the way it goes.

[Back]

Hello Sirus.

[Sean of the Thread]

I hope you're proud fucking stupid liberal PC America.

What a crock of shit.

[Hulkein]

At least it was because the show was losing advertising dollars. Capitalism at its finest.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I hope you're proud fucking stupid liberal PC America.>>

Uhm.

What? It's not like he's being banned from being on the radio; nobody wants to pay his dumb ass to be there. It's a business move.

[Jolena]

Eh..I uphold his right to say whatever he wants, even if it was a dumbass remark obviously meant to stir up trouble (comedy or not, he knew it would cause some issues and that's why he did it, IMHO ). However, this is a business decision on the part of the sponsors. And a smart one, in my opinion. If black people are boycotting the sponsors for promoting the show even after the comment, then the sponsors stand to lose business. :shrug: Can't say I blame them for pulling back from Imus. He made his bed, they shouldn't have to lie in it if they don't wish to.

Imus may not be down and out completely however, as the sponsors haven't dropped him for good. It is indefinite at this point, and so I'm going to assume that they are giving him some time to clean up his mess, so to speak.

[Back]

Free market. I guess some people think the free market is fucking liberal PC.

I'd say its evolving.

[TheEschaton]

I'd say you were stupid.

-TheE-

[Back]

I'd say you were stupid.

-TheE-

:puzzled:

[Bobmuhthol]

Jackson wants more black show hosts
The Rev. Jesse Jackson said he planned to meet with CBS and NBC executives on Thursday with a delegation of other civil rights activists and lawmakers to discuss the Imus situation and diversity in broadcasting.

“Imus is on 1,040 hours a week and yet they have virtually no black show hosts. That is true for other networks as well,” Jackson said. “We must raise the ethical standard for all of them.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17999196/

Damnit I thought we were still using 168 hour weeks.

[Jolena]

God. I seriously dislike Sharpton and Jackson. They really make black folks look bad. :(

[Parkbandit]

Free market. I guess some people think the free market is fucking liberal PC.

I'd say its evolving.


HAHAHAHHAAAAA.. OMG, the Communist who believes in re-distribution of wealth now thinks that capitalism and free market is evolution.

[Back]

HAHAHAHHAAAAA.. OMG, the Communist who believes in re-distribution of wealth now thinks that capitalism and free market is evolution.

Why can’t economic theories evolve along with us?

[Parkbandit]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17999196/

Damnit I thought we were still using 168 hour weeks.

TRANSLATION: SHAKEDOWN CBS AND NBC

[Hulkein]

However, this is a business decision on the part of the sponsors. And a smart one, in my opinion. If black people are boycotting the sponsors for promoting the show even after the comment, then the sponsors stand to lose business.

I don't think Coco-Butter was a sponsor for MSNBC to begin with.






jk

[TheEschaton]

148 hours a day? How did they figure that out?

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Why can’t economic theories evolve along with us?


I'd say you were stupid.

-TheE-

He said it best imo

[Back]

He said it best imo

You were the one championing the free market issue. The free market has spoken. Was it because the free market is pussy liberal or because the free market has some amount of social standards?

[Hulkein]

I'd guess that it's a little bit of both. I'm sure some of the companies that pulled their advertising did so because they were legitimately angry at the statements. I'm also pretty sure that some of them did it just to get their name in the news for doing so, which is pretty much doing it just to accomodate the pussy liberal PC crowd.

[Tsa`ah]

148 hours a day? How did they figure that out?

-TheE-

It's like saying you have 200 years of experience in a conference room ... it's cumulative.

Simple algebra really. A = the number of stations that carry the show, B = the length of the show. AxB=148

It's no different that figuring out man hours in any operation from research to labor.

It'll take 1000 hours to build a 3 bed, 2 bath home with attached garage. A 10 man crew working 10 hours a day will take 10 days to build it. (example ... not an actual figure)

[Parkbandit]

You were the one championing the free market issue. The free market has spoken. Was it because the free market is pussy liberal or because the free market has some amount of social standards?


I have ZERO problem with the capitalist system working here.. it's you posting it that made me laugh at you. Hard.

I don't even think it was the liberal pussies either.. as Imus was one of your biggest supporters. I think it was more that this country has become retardedly PC to the point we can't even make a joke without offending some minority. Well, you can make fun of all the minorities you want.. except blacks. Once you do that, you get the entire weight of NAACP, Jackson, Sharpton, etc.. pushing for your dismissal. They get ahold of the company that hired you.. and let them know that unless they give to your cause.. and fire you.. they will basically accuse you of being a racist company. It's the same shakedown they've been doing for years now... and doing it very successfully.

[Ignot]

If Imus was black then this wouldn't even be an issue. Who's the racist?

[Daniel]

Had this been a black radio personality and had he said "White cracker hos":

1) Would it be considered racist?
2) Would there be any outrage from anyone?
3) Would it even make the morning news?


While I agree that the comments were racist, stupid and ignorant.. Imus has a long standing history of saying stupid, racist and ignorant things. Why all of a sudden is there this huge outrage? And holy fucking shit.. if I don't blow a blood vessel in my head when I hear one of the basketball players saying she will be scarred for life from these comments.... WHAT? For life? Give me a fucking break.

I hope there will be even close to the same outrage over the entire white lacross team being railroaded for rape by an idiot DA and a real life ho. I doubt it though...


When White people actually have to feel the effects of Racism you can talk.

[Daniel]

I have ZERO problem with the capitalist system working here.. it's you posting it that made me laugh at you. Hard.

I don't even think it was the liberal pussies either.. as Imus was one of your biggest supporters. I think it was more that this country has become retardedly PC to the point we can't even make a joke without offending some minority. Well, you can make fun of all the minorities you want.. except blacks.

Except....It wasn't a joke.


Except...He wasn't making fun of blacks. He was making disparaging comments. It wasn't hahaha those nappy headed hos.

It was Those nappy headed hos should have never won.

I find it almost comical that you are sitting here defending the man. He fucked up, and he reaps the field he sowed.

Period.

If you feel so strongly against Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton then feel free to do something about it.

Stand up, speak out.

You won't do it, and neither will anyone else. Why?

Because everyone knows that Blacks have suffered some pretty horrible Racism at the hands of the American people and in some regards still do today.

There is a difference and I'm far from a liberal PC Pussy. I laugh at niggers, chinks, spics, crackers, guidos and towel heds without bias. However, even I can see the difference in these comments. Crying because the guy lost his job is stupid.

[Gan]

Free market. I guess some people think the free market is fucking liberal PC.

I'd say its evolving.


Its only your old misperception of how the free market system works thats evolving.

Welcome to the real world.

[Gan]

When White people actually have to feel the effects of Racism you can talk.



Because everyone knows that Blacks have suffered some pretty horrible Racism at the hands of the American people and in some regards still do today.

Slavery has existed for more than just Black people in this world, in this age. Even though this thread brings up a specific instance here in America, I dont feel that equating the only justification on understanding or advocating against racisim can happen if you're black is incorrect. Discrimination happens in many forms other than skin color, and unfortunately it happens every day. That, unfortunately, is the ugly side of human nature... to exclude.

A very good friend and office worker who's black brought up a very salient point when discussing Jackson's awakening to this issue. He said never mind the fact that Jackson only rears his head when he can see $$$ or airtime, is it no strange coincidence that slavery existed in Africa many years before the white man brought their ships to her shores? What makes slavery something that is unique to the white man? It was as normal occurrence as understanding the difference between a strong tribe and a weak tribe and what happened to the loser after battle.

Please dont misunderstand these sentiments as a support for racisim or discrimination on my part. I personally cant stand it in any form. I just have to stop and wonder when all cultures are going to wake up and stop having their identity crisis and move on with life, regardless of what you look like or where you come from.

[Jolena]

When White people actually have to feel the effects of Racism you can talk.

Discrimination comes in many forms, not just racism. Women, Elderly, Hispanics, people with disabilities.. just to name a few. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to be black to feel discrimination. Or that racism is separated from discrimination, because it's clearly not.

[StrayRogue]

Heh, I've felt the effects of racism a few times. Not nice but not something I'd hold against other people of that race.

[Daniel]

Discrimination comes in many forms, not just racism. Women, Elderly, Hispanics, people with disabilities.. just to name a few. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to be black to feel discrimination. Or that racism is separated from discrimination, because it's clearly not.

Okay.

When you have to feel the effects of systematic racism then you can talk.

Happy?

[Daniel]

Slavery has existed for more than just Black people in this world, in this age. Even though this thread brings up a specific instance here in America, I dont feel that equating the only justification on understanding or advocating against racisim can happen if you're black is incorrect. Discrimination happens in many forms other than skin color, and unfortunately it happens every day. That, unfortunately, is the ugly side of human nature... to exclude.



I never said Racism can only happen if you are black. I said that as an African American citizen of America than you have to deal with the legacy and effects of racism as an endemic part of your life. Whereas, you do not have to do so if you are Caucasian.

This has nothing to do with Racism in Asia, Europe, Africa, South America or anywhere else where racism has manifested itself. I am talking about an American situation that involves American people. Any attempts to detach the issue away from that is missing the point entirely.




A very good friend and office worker who's black brought up a very salient point when discussing Jackson's awakening to this issue. He said never mind the fact that Jackson only rears his head when he can see $$$ or airtime, is it no strange coincidence that slavery existed in Africa many years before the white man brought their ships to her shores? What makes slavery something that is unique to the white man? It was as normal occurrence as understanding the difference between a strong tribe and a weak tribe and what happened to the loser after battle.



Once again. This isn't about what happened in Africa 500-600 years ago. This is about when Europeans went to Africa, brought them to a new country where they were subjugated and Marginalized for centuries and the effects are still being felt today.



Please dont misunderstand these sentiments as a support for racisim or discrimination on my part. I personally cant stand it in any form. I just have to stop and wonder when all cultures are going to wake up and stop having their identity crisis and move on with life, regardless of what you look like or where you come from.

I agree. It is neccessary to move on with life. It's my personal beliefs that people like Jesse Jackson do more harm to the black community in the long run as they take away the personal accountability that is neccessary for self determination in any form.

However, I don't think in this particular situation that there is anything wrong by speaking out against a man who made obviously racist comments.

This isn't an issue about Jesse Jackson. It's about a man, who used his media platform to make overtly racist comments and regardless of how you feel about Jesse, Al, or the black community in general it doesn't change what he said, and it doesn't invalidate any sort of negative reaction on the part of the African American community.

[Gan]

I hope there will be even close to the same outrage over the entire white lacross team being railroaded for rape by an idiot DA and a real life ho. I doubt it though...

Jesse Jackson's commentary almost a year earlier regarding the Duke lacrosse case... interesting read.

http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/commentary.cfm?ArticleID=4990

[Hulkein]

When you have to feel the effects of systematic racism then you can talk.

That's the key here.

[Parkbandit]

It's so funny how people tread water so lightly when it comes to racism. "Hey, I think this.... but don't construe me as a racist" We've become so politically correct that we can't even discuss it without sugar coating it. Thankfully, I've never been one to sugar coat it. Believe what you will towards me... this is the internet.

Daniel. How long do you think you can use the excuse of slavery to explain the double standard in America today? Slavery 'ended' in 1865. Today is 2007. Do you think by 2065, we can then discuss the issues facing black americans today... things like unemployement, gangs, single parents, HIV, etc... without blaming it on slavery?

If Imus was black, and made an even worse disparaging comment towards a predominately white team.. we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be zero press about it. We wouldn't have David Duke demanding that he be fired or that the advertisers take their business elsewhere.

It's only racism in America when it's a white person is playing the role of perpetrator.

[Daniel]

Daniel. How long do you think you can use the excuse of slavery to explain the double standard in America today?

You want to talk about Double Standards PB.

How about this Double Standards:

The figures reveal the continuing, extraordinary magnitude of minority incarceration and the stark disparity in their rates of incarceration compared to those of whites. Out of a total population of 1,976,019 incarcerated in adult facilities, 1,239,946 or 63 percent are black or Latino, though these two groups constitute only 25 percent of the national population.4

You can read up on the issue here:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/#P13_2990


-----



The simple fact of the matter PB is that there is still institutional racism in America today and the effects of Slavery are still being felt today. It's almost laughable that you start your countdown at the point when "Slavery" was abolished and completely ignore the next 90 something years where African Americans were still legally denied equal treatment.

If you think that the disparaties that were created over 400 years have completely dissipated in those 40 years than you are an idiot.

Since you want you challenge me personally, for the "Excuses" I'm making. I challenge you to find any post I have ever made that has attempted to make an excuse for anything I have ever done or accomplished in my life because of Slavery.

I've save you the trouble. You fucking can't because I take personal responsibility for my life. That doesn't change the fact that I've had to work harder for the things I have in life than other people have. Neither does that change the fact that the reason for that is because I was born to an African American Father and not a German American Father.

[Daniel]

Heh, I've felt the effects of racism a few times. Not nice but not something I'd hold against other people of that race.

I'm sorry I missed this, but you sir, are a complete jackass.

Someone laughing at your inability to dance at a party is not exactly the same thing as growing up as an minority in America.

[Hulkein]

Hahahahahaa

[Parkbandit]

You want to talk about Double Standards PB.

How about this Double Standards:

The figures reveal the continuing, extraordinary magnitude of minority incarceration and the stark disparity in their rates of incarceration compared to those of whites. Out of a total population of 1,976,019 incarcerated in adult facilities, 1,239,946 or 63 percent are black or Latino, though these two groups constitute only 25 percent of the national population.4

You can read up on the issue here:

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/#P13_2990

Troubling statistics to be sure. You see 25% of the population being incarcerated 63% of the time and I see 25% of the population committing 63% of the crime.

It's like you are excusing their crimes because they are only 25% of the population. That's the double standard I am talking about.





The simple fact of the matter PB is that there is still institutional racism in America today and the effects of Slavery are still being felt today. It's almost laughable that you start your countdown at the point when "Slavery" was abolished and completely ignore the next 90 something years where African Americans were still legally denied equal treatment.

If you think that the disparaties that were created over 400 years have completely dissipated in those 40 years than you are an idiot.

I'm just asking for a date in which you will stop blaming something that happened 150 years ago for what is going on now. I didn't give you a specific date to use.. just asking for one. By your accounts, we can seriously start talking about serious black issues in the year 2265? I'm sure I probably won't be around for that discussion.. so I guess we can stop now.. and continue to blame everything bad that is happening to every black individual out there on slavery of their great, great, great, great, great grandparents.


Since you want you challenge me personally, for the "Excuses" I'm making. I challenge you to find any post I have ever made that has attempted to make an excuse for anything I have ever done or accomplished in my life because of Slavery.

I've save you the trouble. You fucking can't because I take personal responsibility for my life. That doesn't change the fact that I've had to work harder for the things I have in life than other people have. Neither does that change the fact that the reason for that is because I was born to an African American Father and not a German American Father.

Which is fantastic. I wish there were more people of all color that would do the same thing. But you might not be using slavery as an excuse in your specific case.. but you are certainly using it to excuse your entire race.

[Daniel]

Troubling statistics to be sure. You see 25% of the population being incarcerated 63% of the time and I see 25% of the population committing 63% of the crime.

It's like you are excusing their crimes because they are only 25% of the population. That's the double standard I am talking about.




You mean, you aren't talking about this double standard?


Our research shows that blacks comprise 62.7 percent and whites 36.7 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prison, even though federal surveys and other data detailed in this report show clearly that this racial disparity bears scant relation to racial differences in drug offending. There are, for example, five times more white drug users than black. Relative to population, black men are admitted to state prison on drug charges at a rate that is 13.4 times greater than that of white men. In large part because of the extraordinary racial disparities in incarceration for drug offenses, blacks are incarcerated for all offenses at 8.2 times the rate of whites.

The reason there are more blacks and hispanics in jail than whites has nothing to do with them committing more crimes, and everything to do with the fact that they are sentenced disporportionately than whites.

Look at the 14 year old girl who was sentenced to SEVEN YEARS in prison recently for pushing a hall monitor because she wanted to go to school earlier.




I'm just asking for a date in which you will stop blaming something that happened 150 years ago for what is going on now. I didn't give you a specific date to use.. just asking for one. By your accounts, we can seriously start talking about serious black issues in the year 2265? I'm sure I probably won't be around for that discussion.. so I guess we can stop now.. and continue to blame everything bad that is happening to every black individual out there on slavery of their great, great, great, great, great grandparents.


I'm seriously talking about issues facing black Americans today. You are the one that refuses to believe that Racism is still existent in America.





Which is fantastic. I wish there were more people of all color that would do the same thing. But you might not be using slavery as an excuse in your specific case.. but you are certainly using it to excuse your entire race.


Nice of you to glaze over this statement:

That doesn't change the fact that I've had to work harder for the things I have in life than other people have. Neither does that change the fact that the reason for that is because I was born to an African American Father and not a German American Father.

[TheEschaton]

Troubling statistics to be sure. You see 25% of the population being incarcerated 63% of the time and I see 25% of the population committing 63% of the crime.

It's like you are excusing their crimes because they are only 25% of the population. That's the double standard I am talking about.

It is a matter of stastical study that whites who commit the same crimes as blacks are given probation/let off at a far higher rate than their black counterparts. Same for Hispanics (though not as big a difference).

Edit: Look at death row....the vast, vast majority of the people on death row are black men who've killed white people. White men who kill black people serve, on average, years in prison with chance of parole.

As an interesting point: let's look at how many death row movies are made about white men vs. black men: Dead Man Walking (white), the Story of David Gale (white), The Green Mile (black)...hmmm, how many more?

Which national cases get the most attention? Tim McVeigh. That white woman who "repented". The mentally disabled guy. No one ever cares enough to broadcast another black man dying on death row, because, hey, it happens all the time.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

I'm seriously talking about issues facing black Americans today. You are the one that refuses to believe that Racism is still existent in America.

Show me a single post where I have ever, EVER said that I refused to believe that racism is still existent in America. How typical of you to try and now paint me as a racist because I've broached this taboo subject.



That doesn't change the fact that I've had to work harder for the things I have in life than other people have. Neither does that change the fact that the reason for that is because I was born to an African American Father and not a German American Father.

That's great. I don't think it has shit to do with what race you are on how much you are willing to work to better yourself. I grew up in a poor family in a poor rural community... but because my father wasn't an African American.. that somehow makes my personal struggle lesser than yours?

[CrystalTears]

The Green Mile had one black man and three white men. Well.. two white men and one Indian. Just sayin'.

[Daniel]

Show me a single post where I have ever, EVER said that I refused to believe that racism is still existent in America. How typical of you to try and now paint me as a racist because I've broached this taboo subject.



Too easy.

This one. Notice how you completely omitted the part that showed that blacks on average serve more time than whites.

You just turned a blind eye to overt racism. I.e. you are refusing to believe that racism is still existent.

Make it hard PB.

[Parkbandit]

Too easy.

This one. Notice how you completely omitted the part that showed that blacks on average serve more time than whites.

You just turned a blind eye to overt racism. I.e. you are refusing to believe that racism is still existent.

Make it hard PB.

LOL.

So that is why I am now a racist?

You're pathetic.

You are part of the problem with Racism in America... a much larger problem than I ever will be. You excuse your race. I hold each individual to their own actions.

You proclaim you are all for self responsibility.. but it's talk and nothing more. You remind me of the role Martin Lawrence played in Boomerang. Everything is about race and how the black man has been held down. The game of pool is racist because the white ball knocks the shit out of all the colored balls, including the black one.

You are an excuser. You claim that the likes of Jackson and Sharpton do nothing for your race.. yet you have the same arguments.

[Daniel]

I'm seriously talking about issues facing black Americans today. You are the one that refuses to believe that Racism is still existent in America.




I don't like repeating myself PB.

I said you were *ignoring* racism, not that you were racist.

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt anyone will openly say "I refuse to believe anything". Fortunately, your actions in this thread demonstrate it sufficiently.

Come back when you decide to "seriously" discuss things. We'll be here.

Until then, feel free to shut the fuck up.

[Back]

The game of pool is racist because the white ball knocks the shit out of all the colored balls, including the black one.

Did he also do the joke about how his father loved bowling... because one big black ball knocks the shit out of ten white pins with red necks? Maybe that was Chapelle.

[Parkbandit]

I don't like repeating myself PB.

Come back when you decide to "seriously" discuss things.

Until then, feel free to shut the fuck up.

LOL

Same story with you.. you don't agree with someone.. so they should STFU.

You truly are pathetic.

[Daniel]

Present your facts:

Refute the fact that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated in America.

[CrystalTears]

I don't believe anyone is saying that there isn't racism. I believe he's saying that slavery can no longer be the reason as it hardly applies to anyone living anymore.

[Daniel]

I don't believe anyone is saying that there isn't racism. I believe he's saying that slavery can no longer be the reason as it hardly applies to anyone living anymore.

Even if that is what he meant..... it still wouldn't be true.

However, I'll concede this point for the sake of conversation.

Now, we admit that there is systematic racism in America.

Do you not see the points I was making?

An African American should be upset and should attempt to take action if someone makes comments that serve to perpuate the systematic racism that exists today.

At the same time a person that does not suffer from systematic racism has less of a reason to get upset over displays of racism because it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to.

Feel free to present an argument that refutes either point.

[Gan]

Look at the 14 year old girl who was sentenced to SEVEN YEARS in prison recently for pushing a hall monitor because she wanted to go to school earlier.

I would like to clarify that the girl (see link below) sentenced to 7 years refused a plea deal that was a misdemeanor charge and 2 months probation. There's more to this story than what is being covered by the media.

The case this is compared to in order to give contrast where the white girl burned down her parents house was also given a plea deal, in which the white girl took.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquanda_Cotton

[Daniel]

I would like to clarify that the girl (see link below) sentenced to 7 years refused a plea deal that was a misdemeanor charge and 2 months probation. There's more to this story than what is being covered by the media.

The case this is compared to in order to give contrast where the white girl burned down her parents house was also given a plea deal, in which the white girl took.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquanda_Cotton

So, 7 years is an appropriate sentence in this case? Yes or No?

[CrystalTears]

Seriously? All that over pushing someone in a school hallway? Fucking hell, that's just stupid.

[Gan]

So, 7 years is an appropriate sentence in this case? Yes or No?

Without knowing the details of the case, the instructions to the jury from the judge as to what the acceptable sentencing guidelines were, and the mitigating circumstances brought before the jury. I'd have to answer no.

Its evident that the judge, jury, and DA thought otherwise.

BTW she was released after serving 1 year in a youth correctional facility.

[Nieninque]

I agree with what you are saying in the main, until we get to this point.


At the same time a person that does not suffer from systematic racism has less of a reason to get upset over displays of racism because it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to.


I'm white British, and displays of Racism piss me off.

My mum told me a racist joke the other day and was spouting some jingoistic BS about asylum seekers and Black people, so I cut her down. She hasnt phoned me since.

Did her jokes affect me personally? Yes and no. Yes, because the effects of shit like that in society impacts us all - white or Black. Yes because I hate shit like that. No, because I'm white, so I'm OK.

If I see something racist, I am calling it. Regardless of whether it hampers my life chances.

Racism is not just a Black issue. It's all of our issue. Some people just dont see past the parts that they want to see or dont really think about it/study it.

I dont think that you have any less of a reason to object to racist shit, I just think most people dont see the impact of it on us all.

[Gan]

Seriously? All that over pushing someone in a school hallway? Fucking hell, that's just stupid.


Its understandable that real assault charges were brought since she did assault someone. With the increased violence seen in schools; school grounds are no longer a safe haven for acts of violence and misdeeds only to be punished by suspension, detention, or extra homework.

In Houston, any kid strikes or pushes someone else intentionally to cause harm faces assault charges, be it teacher or student.

Is that too harsh an expectation for high school students? Or students in general?

[Daniel]

No, because I'm white, so I'm OK.



That's the point.

Thanks for understanding.

I never meant to say don't get upset if someone makes a comment about your short willy. I'm saying, at the end of the day, it's not worth your effort to start throwing up posters.

[Gan]

I'm white British, and displays of Racism piss me off.

My mum told me a racist joke the other day and was spouting some jingoistic BS about asylum seekers and Black people, so I cut her down. She hasnt phoned me since.

Did her jokes affect me personally? Yes and no. Yes, because the effects of shit like that in society impacts us all - white or Black. Yes because I hate shit like that. No, because I'm white, so I'm OK.

If I see something racist, I am calling it. Regardless of whether it hampers my life chances.

Racism is not just a Black issue. It's all of our issue. Some people just dont see past the parts that they want to see or dont really think about it/study it.

I dont think that you have any less of a reason to object to racist shit, I just think most people dont see the impact of it on us all.


/agree

[Daniel]

BTW she was released after serving 1 year in a youth correctional facility.

Yea. I was just gonna bring that up too. It's just an example.

[Skirmisher]

All this because some idiot who hasn't even been funny in years is called on making a flat out racist statement?

When you make a living and a darned good one by being in the public eye you have no call to complain when your own words screw you up. I mean even if he wanted to be funny and spoke without thinking, why the hell were the words "nappy headed hos" thrust so readily out by his mouth? It's pathetic.

Imus is a wealthy man and will be fine if he does not work another day in his life. He really doesn't need anyone defending him, especially when he does not deserve it.

[Nieninque]

So, 7 years is an appropriate sentence in this case? Yes or No?

Come on Daniel, even you must admit she was a nasty piece of work:


Among the write-ups Shaquanda received were citations for wearing a skirt that was an inch too short, pouring too much paint into a cup during an art class and defacing a desk that school officials later conceded bore no signs of damage.

[CrystalTears]

He was wrong, it was a stupid and ignorant thing to say, he deserved to get shit for it.

HOWEVER... I don't like how people like Rosie O'Donnell and other celebrities say basically the same kind of slanderous things and no one pays them mind, saying things like eh, Rosie's an idiot anyway. So what's to stop people from saying the same thing about Imus? Why are his words so utterly important to anyone? He's essentially a nobody that doesn't know anyone he makes fun of. Why are his words suddenly the epitome of how people behave and should be made an example of?

[Nieninque]

That's the point.

Thanks for understanding.

I never meant to say don't get upset if someone makes a comment about your short willy. I'm saying, at the end of the day, it's not worth your effort to start throwing up posters.

My willy is teh ubar short.

As for throwing up posters, I did that shit. Kinda screws your argument over when white people object to Racism. I spent a good amount of time actively campaigning against explicit and implicit racism. I still do my bit now. I'm still affected by racism. Not in the same way that the direct recipients are, but it affects me just the same.

[TheEschaton]

I actively promote women's causes, and am working in the sex crimes division this summer of the DA's office in Manhattan. I agree with Nein that you don't have to be a member of a group to care/do something about an issue.

I'm pre-empting all jokes about me already being a woman by mentioning it now.

-TheE-

[Tea & Strumpets]

When White people actually have to feel the effects of Racism you can talk.


Do you really think white people don't feel the effects of racism? Some minorities feel completely justified in being racist towards Whitey.

[Atlanteax]

Too bad there is no such outcry over the so-called Hip-Hop Music industry.

[Daniel]

Do you really think white people don't feel the effects of racism? Some minorities feel completely justified in being racist towards Whitey.

Read post towards Strayrogue.

[CrystalTears]

So what you're saying is that black people have it harder so any other racism going on is insignificant because they're not black?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at.

[Parkbandit]

Present your facts:

Refute the fact that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated in America.

Present your facts:

Refute the fact that blacks are disproportionately committing crimes in America.[/QUOTE]

[Parkbandit]

So, 7 years is an appropriate sentence in this case? Yes or No?

If I wanted to, I'm sure I could fill an entire page of sentences that were not appropriate for the case... and the defendant is of all races.

[Parkbandit]

Yea. I was just gonna bring that up too.... but conveniently didn't to prove my point.


Fixed

[Parkbandit]

I'm pre-empting all jokes about me already being a woman by mentioning it now.

-TheE-

Son of a bitch...

(Edited out "U R A GIRL" comments)

[Daniel]

Present your facts:

Refute the fact that blacks are disproportionately committing crimes in America.[/QUOTE]



Our research shows that blacks comprise 62.7 percent and whites 36.7 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prison, even though federal surveys and other data detailed in this report show clearly that this racial disparity bears scant relation to racial differences in drug offending. There are, for example, five times more white drug users than black. Relative to population, black men are admitted to state prison on drug charges at a rate that is 13.4 times greater than that of white men. In large part because of the extraordinary racial disparities in incarceration for drug offenses, blacks are incarcerated for all offenses at 8.2 times the rate of whites.


I know you're old PB, but please try and keep up.

[Parkbandit]

So you are saying that at least 8.2 percent of all black inmates are innocent?

I know you are black Daniel.. but please try and keep up.

[Nieninque]

So you are saying that at least 8.2 percent of all black inmates are innocent?


No, he is saying that the Black people who commit a particular crime are much more likely to be incarcated for that crime than the higher number of white people who commit the same crime.

Less Black people receiving more punishment for a crime that more White people commit doesnt make sense.

[Skirmisher]

Too bad there is no such outcry over the so-called Hip-Hop Music industry.

Is it so surprising?

Generally speaking, people may argue with family members and vociferously so at times but when someone not in that family attacks a family member are you surprised that the family suddenly forms up as one and wheels on the outside transgressor?

I hope you are not going to claim that you are unaware that the black community is not 100% in favor of hip hop culture.

And again, what does this all have to do with a washed up shock jock who got caught mouthing off and is paying the price?

Whether or not other injustices exist in America does not somehow lessen what this ass has done.

[CrystalTears]

It's Howard Stern all over again. I'm over it.

[Latrinsorm]

At the same time a person that does not suffer from systematic racism has less of a reason to get upset over displays of racism because it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to. When Dr. King and Malcolm X would disagree with you, I'm leaning towards you being wrong.

[Gan]

And again, what does this all have to do with a washed up shock jock who got caught mouthing off and is paying the price?

The discussion has evolved. Its not that difficult to follow the arguments made, reasons given, and the discussion of those arguments and reasons.

I'm sure Daniel can draw you a diagram if you ask nicely. ;)

[Gan]

When Dr. King and Malcolm X would disagree with you, I'm leaning towards you being wrong.

You left out Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. I'm shocked.

[Daniel]

So you are saying that at least 8.2 percent of all black inmates are innocent?

I know you are black Daniel.. but please try and keep up.


That might have hurt...if you could read.

[Skirmisher]

At the same time a person that does not suffer from systematic racism has less of a reason to get upset over displays of racism because it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to.



When Dr. King and Malcolm X would disagree with you, I'm leaning towards you being wrong.

Change the words "Has less of a reason" to "is less likely" and I think it's pretty much on the mark.

Sure maybe all people SHOULD get upset even if the offense is not directed at them but we know that that is not yet the case.

[Daniel]

The discussion has evolved. Its not that difficult to follow the arguments made, reasons given, and the discussion of those arguments and reasons.

I'm sure Daniel can draw you a diagram if you ask nicely. ;)

Are you saying that just cause I'm black I'm good with Crayons?

Should I bust a little flow too?

Cut a little rug?

[Anebriated]

OK I read most of this but didnt quite make it to the end so i hope I dont repeat anything. Honestly these statements should not be considered racist. Yes they were used in a derogitory way and they should not have been made. That doesnt mean it was a white on black hate crime.

African Americans are the source of the majority of racism remaining in the country. Before some of you get your panties in a bunch, caucasions are not innocent. But if you want to see change then act like it. Jackson and Sharpton are near the root of the problem. Every time something questionable happens they are right there to make it a national issue and draw attention to the situation. You think its a problem that PB neglected to comment on the higher rate of blacks in prison? Its pretty much a common known fact, and its not because white people get off the hook easier. Maybe the African Americans should try to stay out of trouble a bit more? The only thing "keeping a brother down" is their pride and inablity to put differences aside.

As for the whole Imus situation. There should be no race issue involved. He said things that were disrespectful to a girls NCAA basketball team who did nothing to deserve it. That is the only problem here. These girls who played and excelled at a sport for years were called out and laughed at by someone sitting in a chair at a radio station somewhere for entertainment. Imus should not be fired, he should be penalized but not fired imo.

[Daniel]

OK I read most of this but didnt quite make it to the end so i hope I dont repeat anything. Honestly these statements should not be considered racist. Yes they were used in a derogitory way and they should not have been made. That doesnt mean it was a white on black hate crime(despite what daniel thinks).



I stopped reading at this point. If you honestly think that was even the rough gist of the points I was making then you are obviously a retard and quite frankly, I'm surprised you can use a computer.

[Anebriated]

Chris Rock-

Caretaker: Whatever your pleasure, I can facilitate. You need weed, you need meth- hey, you need Prozac, I'm your man. I know how you white boys always deal with that depression. I mean me personally, I don't understand what you white boys are all depressed about. Hey, you're white! Smile!

[Anebriated]

You blew things out of proportion and tried to use slavery as an excuse. Yeah it sucks and im sorry that i speant my saturdays on the docks but i mean hell, get past it. The point i was trying to make is that most people have blown this out of proportion and claimed racism(which you heavily defended). Racism is only what people make of it.

[Parkbandit]

That might have hurt...if you could read.

So far, your comebacks are "STFU" and "U CAN'T READ" Yea, those hurt.

[Parkbandit]

I stopped reading at this point. If you honestly think that was even the rough gist of the points I was making then you are obviously a retard and quite frankly, I'm surprised you can use a computer.


This from a guy who didn't have the attention span to read more than 4 sentences.

[Gan]

The juxtaposition of the occurrence of derogatory (intentional and unintentional but perceived intentional) slang/slur words and phrases is that there is an acceptance of their use within cultuaral boundries; however, when the slur or slang originates from outside the cultural boundry then its vollatile, racist, and oppressive. If anything that only adds to the confusion of its acceptance or non-acceptance in today's society.

This has seen most prevalently with the use of 'nigger' from within the black dynamic. To the point that there was even a conference/symposium held very recently in Atlanta by prominent sociological scholars about the use of the N word in today's culture and vernacular.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I'm sorry I missed this, but you sir, are a complete jackass.

Someone laughing at your inability to dance at a party is not exactly the same thing as growing up as an minority in America.

I wasn't talking about people laughing at how I dance at a party, but I do find your repeated white jokes in this thread amusing considering the stance you are arguing.

I know that it's funny to make demeaning jokes about white people stereotypes, like they have 1 inch weiners and they can't dance, so don't think I'm offended. On the other hand, would it be offensive if I jokingly said that there is a 99% chance that you have a piece of fried chicken in your hand as you are reading this? I dunno, but if we both made our comments on the radio, I'm guessing my job would be the only one in jeopardy.

I've gotten in multiple fist fights simply because I was white and everyone else present wasn't, usually on inner city basketball courts. It's pretty clear when you are just being harassed or goaded because you are different.

The bias didn't always evolve into fist-fights, but there was always something, like a new nickname for the day. Sometimes your new name would be "Bread" or "Stockton" or "Honk", you just never knew. :)

Anyway, the only thing I am objecting to is your ridiculous notion that you are the only one affected by racism, or systematic racism if we want to play word games. It affects everyone, to differing degrees. It's not something invented by and exclusive to Whitey.

[Anebriated]

For the better part of 2 years I lived off of the Temple campus in North Philadelphia. Its a heavily black community once you leave the campus. So im not saying all this to be racist, but if the black community wants to change the nations view on them then why not try to change their actions? There are plenty of successful black people in the world, is that some strange phenomenon? Not really, but they are people who worked for what they have and have raised themselves from the stereotype.

Change doesnt always have to start on the outside, can start from within the culture.

[Nieninque]

African Americans are the source of the majority of racism remaining in the country.

ROFL


You think its a problem that PB neglected to comment on the higher rate of blacks in prison? Its pretty much a common known fact, and its not because white people get off the hook easier. Maybe the African Americans should try to stay out of trouble a bit more?

Go read a little more. The majority of crime is committed by white people. A higher percentage of offenders of drug crimes (for instance) are white, as compared to Black offenders. More Black people are sent to prison for crimes that white people are getting non-custodial sentencing.

In other words, you are wrong.

[Parkbandit]

I wasn't talking about people laughing at how I dance at a party, but I do find your repeated white jokes in this thread amusing considering the stance you are arguing.

I know that it's funny to make demeaning jokes about white people stereotypes, like they have 1 inch weiners and they can't dance, so don't think I'm offended. On the other hand, would it be offensive if I jokingly said that there is a 99% chance that you have a piece of fried chicken in your hand as you are reading this? I dunno, but if we both made our comments on the radio, I'm guessing my job would be the only one in jeopardy.

I've gotten in multiple fist fights simply because I was white and everyone else present wasn't, usually on inner city basketball courts. It's pretty clear when you are just being harassed or goaded because you are different.

The bias didn't always evolve into fist-fights, but there was always something, like a new nickname for the day. Sometimes your new name would be "Bread" or "Stockton" or "Honk", you just never knew. :)

Anyway, the only thing I am objecting to is your ridiculous notion that you are the only one affected by racism, or systematic racism if we want to play word games. It affects everyone, to differing degrees. It's not something invented by and exclusive to Whitey.


You forgot about his blatent ageism! HE CALLED ME OLD!

[Anebriated]

ROFL



Go read a little more. The majority of crime is committed by white people. A higher percentage of offenders of drug crimes (for instance) are white, as compared to Black offenders. More Black people are sent to prison for crimes that white people are getting non-custodial sentencing.

In other words, you are wrong.

I didnt look at any numbers, ill admit. I just know what happened around me while living in the city that had its highest homicide rate in the first few months of the year, crimes predominately committed by blacks.

[Daniel]

You blew things out of proportion and tried to use slavery as an excuse. Yeah it sucks and im sorry that i speant my saturdays on the docks but i mean hell, get past it. The point i was trying to make is that most people have blown this out of proportion and claimed racism(which you heavily defended). Racism is only what people make of it.

Um...except not.

[Nieninque]

You forgot about his blatent ageism! HE CALLED ME OLD!

That would be an observation rather than a sereotype ;P

[Daniel]

I wasn't talking about people laughing at how I dance at a party, but I do find your repeated white jokes in this thread amusing considering the stance you are arguing.

I know that it's funny to make demeaning jokes about white people stereotypes, like they have 1 inch weiners and they can't dance, so don't think I'm offended. On the other hand, would it be offensive if I jokingly said that there is a 99% chance that you have a piece of fried chicken in your hand as you are reading this? I dunno, but if we both made our comments on the radio, I'm guessing my job would be the only one in jeopardy.

I wouldn't give a shit. As I said at the very beginning, I'm an equal opportunity racist. I make jokes about everyone. In fact, you wouldn't be far off when your fried chicken comment. I love the shit.

There is an obvious difference in the connotation behind you saying I like Fried Chicken and the the one behind "Those nappy headed ho's had no business beating that other clean team".

If you can't see that. Then I don't know what to tell you.




I've gotten in multiple fist fights simply because I was white and everyone else present wasn't, usually on inner city basketball courts. It's pretty clear when you are just being harassed or goaded because you are different.

The bias didn't always evolve into fist-fights, but there was always something, like a new nickname for the day. Sometimes your new name would be "Bread" or "Stockton" or "Honk", you just never knew. :)



I've gotten into multi fist fights because I was the only black person in an area, and I've gotten into multiple fist fights because I was the only white person in an area.

What's your point? Do you honestly expect people to not be frustrated when they are continually marginalized in a society?

That doesn't make it better, but at least take a second to understand why people think the way they do.




Anyway, the only thing I am objecting to is your ridiculous notion that you are the only one affected by racism, or systematic racism if we want to play word games. It affects everyone, to differing degrees. It's not something invented by and exclusive to Whitey.

I'm pretty sure I went over this. It's not about racism in general. It's about Racism in America. The FACT is that minorities in America are still marginalized. You can choose to not play basketball in the inner city. You can't choose to *not* live in the inner city if you were born there.

[Latrinsorm]

Change the words "Has less of a reason" to "is less likely" and I think it's pretty much on the mark.

Sure maybe all people SHOULD get upset even if the offense is not directed at them but we know that that is not yet the case.I was more talking about the "it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to." bit.

[Daniel]

So far, your comebacks are "STFU" and "U CAN'T READ" Yea, those hurt.

Actually. My come back has been. Blacks are 8.2 TIMES more likely to be incarcerated than whites for the same offense.

Your come back was "So are you saying 8.2% of blacks are innocent?????".

I guess it is kind of hard to hurt someone who is oblivious.

[Daniel]

I was more talking about the "it has no determinable effect on them or those that they are close to." bit.

Okay, Latrin. How does racism effect the average white person in America.

[Daniel]

Change doesnt always have to start on the outside, can start from within the culture.

How does this mitigate the responsibility of the outside to effect change?

[Nieninque]

I didnt look at any numbers, ill admit. I just know what happened around me while living in the city that had its highest homicide rate in the first few months of the year, crimes predominately committed by blacks.

Which is kinda where my mum was coming from when she went on her little tirade about Black people in the NE of England.

She sees all these Black people committing crime against white people and comes to hate the Black people. In actual fact, the crime the Black people are committing is at a lower rate than the amount of white people committing the same crime. Not only do they get more news coverage for doing so, but they also suffer harsher consequences for doing that, i.e. they are much more likely to go to jail for a crime than a white person who committed the same crime.

There was a sketch on a comedy program here where a Newscaster included the amount of Black people involved in each incident they reported on. It started with a story about riots in an inner city area - 23 Black people were arrested, It went through a number of other similar but increasingly stupid stories, and ended with a report about some people in the Royal Family getting married - no Black people were present.

White people get their haunches up whenever anyone mentions racism. They really dont need to.

I consider myself to be anti-racist. I also acknowledge, however, that I am white and was brought up in a racist/sexist/homophobic society so am likely to have internalised some of that way of thinking myself. I try and challenge it (oh you should hear some of the arguments I have with myself). But seriously, I am not racist, but I can think in racist ways some times. I grew up talking about Paki shops and nig nogs, and where it was accepted that people refered to Minority Ethnic groups as such.

Then I grew up and started thinking for myself.

Racism affects us all - in differing amounts - individually and as a society. We all have a responsibility to do something about it.

/soapbox

[Sean]

"There are plenty of successful black people in the world, is that some strange phenomenon? Not really, but they are people who worked for what they have and have raised themselves from the stereotype."

What stereotype would that be.

[CrystalTears]

There is an obvious difference in the connotation behind you saying I like Fried Chicken and the the one behind "Those nappy headed ho's had no business beating that other clean team".

Wait, I don't remember reading that line. I didn't hear anything about him saying that they shouldn't have beat the clean team. Where did you see that?

[Nieninque]

This was based upon his view of the Rutgers team as being "nappy headed hos." Well the description was a bit more vivid as he described them as tattooed and so fourth, vs the Tennessee description of nice and pretty..

[Parkbandit]

Wait, I don't remember reading that line. I didn't hear anything about him saying that they shouldn't have beat the clean team. Where did you see that?


It's called creative license.. it makes it sound worse and bolsters his view. (he made it up or is just ill-informed)

Here's the real snippet:

DON IMUS: So, I watched the basketball game last night between -- a little bit of Rutgers and Tennessee, the women's final.

SID ROSENBERG: Yeah, Tennessee won last night -- seventh championship for [Tennessee coach] Pat Summitt, I-Man. They beat Rutgers by 13 points.

IMUS: That's some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and --

BERNARD McGUIRK: Some hard-core hos.

IMUS: That's some nappy-headed hos there. I'm gonna tell you that now, man, that's some -- woo. And the girls from Tennessee, they all look cute, you know, so, like -- kinda like -- I don't know.

[xtc]

Firing Imus isn't about free speech. Imus is free to sit in his living room and go on any racist rant he wants to. Imus has lost sponsors, sponsors mean money. He should be fired. If he wants a public forum to continue his rants he can always get a job with The Vanguard News Network.

[Gan]

Go read a little more. The majority of crime is committed by white people. A higher percentage of offenders of drug crimes (for instance) are white, as compared to Black offenders. More Black people are sent to prison for crimes that white people are getting non-custodial sentencing.

In other words, you are wrong.

Sayone someone is wrong without citing a source to back up your assertions just make your argument seem... lacking.

Having worked in a prison for a number of years, I have my own preconceptions of convicted criminals, their actual guilt by admission, their admission of crimes not convicted of, and lastly their sentences.

With that said, I would have to disagree with your claim on face value.

[CrystalTears]

He didn't get fired though. MSNBC just isn't broadcasting his show. When he returns to WFAN and they see what his ratings look like, that's when it will probably be determined whether he will be finished or not.

Although after seeing the transcript, he wasn't the only one being rather nasty about the whole thing. He was singled out because he added nappy headed? He wasn't even the first one to call them ho's.

[Sean]

It's called creative license.. it makes it sound worse and bolsters his view. (he made it up or is just ill-informed)

Here's the real snippet:

DON IMUS: So, I watched the basketball game last night between -- a little bit of Rutgers and Tennessee, the women's final.

SID ROSENBERG: Yeah, Tennessee won last night -- seventh championship for [Tennessee coach] Pat Summitt, I-Man. They beat Rutgers by 13 points.

IMUS: That's some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and --

BERNARD McGUIRK: Some hard-core hos.

IMUS: That's some nappy-headed hos there. I'm gonna tell you that now, man, that's some -- woo. And the girls from Tennessee, they all look cute, you know, so, like -- kinda like -- I don't know.


IMUS: That’s some nappy-headed hos there. I’m gonna tell you that now, man, that’s some — woo. And the girls from Tennessee, they all look cute, you know, so, like — kinda like — I don’t know.

McGUIRK: A Spike Lee thing.

IMUS: Yeah.

McGUIRK: The Jigaboos vs. the Wannabes — that movie that he had.

IMUS: Yeah, it was a tough –

CHARLES McCORD: Do The Right Thing.

McGUIRK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

IMUS: I don’t know if I’d have wanted to beat Rutgers or not, but they did, right?

ROSENBERG: It was a tough watch. The more I look at Rutgers, they look exactly like the Toronto Raptors.

----------

Did he take some creative license? Sure. But theres still more to the snippet than what you posted. What do you think he meant by he's not sure if he would have wanted to beat Rutgers or not?

[Gan]

Okay, Latrin. How does racism effect the average white person in America.

By reactive laws such as affirmative action to name the first thing off the top of my head. I can think of others, but I'm pressed for time right now.

[Gan]

How does this mitigate the responsibility of the outside to effect change?

By credibility and leading by example. How can you tell society to stop using the N word, for instance, when its prevalently used in black culture?

Bill Cosby had a few good thoughts on that topic. ;)

[Gan]

Wait, I don't remember reading that line. I didn't hear anything about him saying that they shouldn't have beat the clean team. Where did you see that?


I dont recall seeing that line in the transcript either. I think its an add on.

[CrystalTears]

It's a conclusion I guess based on a later statement, which I still don't get what he meant by that.

So this really had nothing to do with being called ho's then, I take it. It was all about the nappy headed.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Ganalon
By credibility and leading by example. How can you tell society to stop using the N word, for instance, when its prevalently used in black culture?

Black Culture or Urban Culture? I'm not really quoting you to single you out but it's always been interesting to me how inner-city/urban culture has all of a sudden become known as a black culture. On the flip side of the coin, atleast in my opinion, it'd be like me picking trailer park culture and all of it's associated qualities and dubbing it as white culture.

[Daniel]

By reactive laws such as affirmative action to name the first thing off the top of my head. I can think of others, but I'm pressed for time right now.

I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action in the long run, but I suggest you read this paper:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/fryer_loury_jepfinal.pdf

I saw this guy present with Steve Levitt (Freakonomics) at the University of Chicago a year or so back.


In particular:


Many white Americans hold erroneous perceptions about the costs they incur due to racial
preferences favoring blacks and Hispanics. According to our calculations based on data from the
2000 General Social Survey (GSS), 40 percent of whites over the age of 18 believe it likely that
they or someone they know were rejected from a college due to an unqualified black applicant
being admitted. Yet Kane (1998) has shown that racial preferences in admissions are given only at
the most elite 20 percent of colleges and universities and, even at these colleges, the impact of
racial preferences on the typical white applicant’s admission probability is small. As a back-of-the-
envelope calculation, assume that elite colleges and universities accept 20 percent of their applicant
pool (the true percentage is probably lower) and that 15 percent of their incoming students are
black or Hispanic. If one makes the extreme and clearly incorrect assumption that all admissions
of blacks and Hispanics to elite colleges and universities are a result of affirmative action, then 3
percent of all selective college admissions in a given year would be the result of affirmative action.
Very few of the 80 percent of those rejected by selective colleges could possibly fit into the 3
percent of admissions affected by affirmative action.. Evidently, many rejected white applicants
imagine themselves to have fallen just below the margin of acceptance though, by definition, this
could be true for only a few of them. Such perceptual biases could cause the aggregate subjective
cost of racial affirmative action to far exceed the policy’s objective burden.

This observation has particular force if we take value-added, not absolute performance, as
the proper outcome measure in a college’s objective function. Indeed, Dale and Krueger (2002)
demonstrate that there is little incremental payoff for individuals from advantaged backgrounds
associated with attending selective colleges, whereas the benefit for disadvantaged students is
substantive. Thus, even if a non-trivial share of advantaged whites were to have been displaced
from elite universities due to the preferential admission of minority candidates – which is not the
case – this would probably have little impact on the lifetime incomes of advantaged whites while,
as Bowen and Bok (1998) have stressed, the benefits for disadvantaged minorities could be
substantial.
Kane (1998) offers a useful analogy explaining why the perceived costs of race-targeted
policies might exceed the actual cost. Suppose a single unused parking space in front of a popular
restaurant is reserved for disabled drivers. Non-disabled drivers who observe the unused space
while trying to park might resent this policy, imagining that it prolongs their parking search. But
when parking is tight it is likely that, even if the disabled space were not reserved, it would already
have been taken by the time a given driver comes along. When many non-disabled drivers
overestimate their chance of getting the unreserved space, the perceived cost of a policy favoring
the disabled could be large, despite fact that the policy has a negligible effect on the mean duration
of a parking search. So too, it would seem, with racial affirmative action in higher education.

[Daniel]

By credibility and leading by example. How can you tell society to stop using the N word, for instance, when its prevalently used in black culture?

Bill Cosby had a few good thoughts on that topic. ;)

Heh. I agree with Bill Cosby. That doesn't change anything I've said. There is still institutional racism in America. It's a double faceted issue.

[Gan]

Black Culture or Urban Culture? I'm not really quoting you to single you out but it's always been interesting to me how inner-city/urban culture has all of a sudden become known as a black culture. On the flip side of the coin, atleast in my opinion, it'd be like me picking trailer park culture and all of it's associated qualities and dubbing it as white culture.

Perhaps its the perception I have based on my exposure to the people I live around, work around, see on the news, see on TV, and hear on the radio. I'll leave it up to others to determine if my perception is representative of mainstream or a minority of the 'minority'.

[Parkbandit]

IMUS: That’s some nappy-headed hos there. I’m gonna tell you that now, man, that’s some — woo. And the girls from Tennessee, they all look cute, you know, so, like — kinda like — I don’t know.

McGUIRK: A Spike Lee thing.

IMUS: Yeah.

McGUIRK: The Jigaboos vs. the Wannabes — that movie that he had.

IMUS: Yeah, it was a tough –

CHARLES McCORD: Do The Right Thing.

McGUIRK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

IMUS: I don’t know if I’d have wanted to beat Rutgers or not, but they did, right?

ROSENBERG: It was a tough watch. The more I look at Rutgers, they look exactly like the Toronto Raptors.

----------

Did he take some creative license? Sure. But theres still more to the snippet than what you posted. What do you think he meant by he's not sure if he would have wanted to beat Rutgers or not?

OMG! YOU DIDN"T POST THE ENTIRE 3 HOUR BROADCAST! YOU ARE TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING!~!!!!!!!

Dumbass.

Wanting one team to beat another team now makes you a racist?

Maybe he was in a fantasy league?

Maybe he was in a chart league?

Maybe he has friends associated with the Tennessee program?

Maybe he's just a fan of Tennessee sports?

Maybe he has ties to the Memphis area?

Maybe he is a big supporter for all volunteers?

Maybe he dislikes Rutgers?

OR IS IT BECAUSE RUTGERS HAS 2 WHITES ON THE TEAM AND TENNESSEE HAS THREE!!! THREE > TWO! (might be 4.. can't tell with one of them)

Or maybe it's deeper.... Rutgers is coached by a Black woman.. and Tennessee is coached by a white one. That has to be it.

[Gan]

I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action in the long run, but I suggest you read this paper:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/fryer_loury_jepfinal.pdf

I saw this guy present with Steve Levitt (Freakonomics) at the University of Chicago a year or so back.


In particular:


Many white Americans hold erroneous perceptions about the costs they incur due to racial
preferences favoring blacks and Hispanics. According to our calculations based on data from the
2000 General Social Survey (GSS), 40 percent of whites over the age of 18 believe it likely that
they or someone they know were rejected from a college due to an unqualified black applicant
being admitted. Yet Kane (1998) has shown that racial preferences in admissions are given only at
the most elite 20 percent of colleges and universities and, even at these colleges, the impact of
racial preferences on the typical white applicant’s admission probability is small. As a back-of-the-
envelope calculation, assume that elite colleges and universities accept 20 percent of their applicant
pool (the true percentage is probably lower) and that 15 percent of their incoming students are
black or Hispanic. If one makes the extreme and clearly incorrect assumption that all admissions
of blacks and Hispanics to elite colleges and universities are a result of affirmative action, then 3
percent of all selective college admissions in a given year would be the result of affirmative action.
Very few of the 80 percent of those rejected by selective colleges could possibly fit into the 3
percent of admissions affected by affirmative action.. Evidently, many rejected white applicants
imagine themselves to have fallen just below the margin of acceptance though, by definition, this
could be true for only a few of them. Such perceptual biases could cause the aggregate subjective
cost of racial affirmative action to far exceed the policy’s objective burden.

This observation has particular force if we take value-added, not absolute performance, as
the proper outcome measure in a college’s objective function. Indeed, Dale and Krueger (2002)
demonstrate that there is little incremental payoff for individuals from advantaged backgrounds
associated with attending selective colleges, whereas the benefit for disadvantaged students is
substantive. Thus, even if a non-trivial share of advantaged whites were to have been displaced
from elite universities due to the preferential admission of minority candidates – which is not the
case – this would probably have little impact on the lifetime incomes of advantaged whites while,
as Bowen and Bok (1998) have stressed, the benefits for disadvantaged minorities could be
substantial.
Kane (1998) offers a useful analogy explaining why the perceived costs of race-targeted
policies might exceed the actual cost. Suppose a single unused parking space in front of a popular
restaurant is reserved for disabled drivers. Non-disabled drivers who observe the unused space
while trying to park might resent this policy, imagining that it prolongs their parking search. But
when parking is tight it is likely that, even if the disabled space were not reserved, it would already
have been taken by the time a given driver comes along. When many non-disabled drivers
overestimate their chance of getting the unreserved space, the perceived cost of a policy favoring
the disabled could be large, despite fact that the policy has a negligible effect on the mean duration
of a parking search. So too, it would seem, with racial affirmative action in higher education.


Freakonomics - an excellent book. I need to replace my copy since my ex-boss ran off with it.

While I'm not doubting the article's validity as applied to university or education. I would like to point out that affirmative action is also prevalent in the professional world where job availability can be subjected to these requirements. Especially on the governmental level.

[Daniel]

OMG! YOU DIDN"T POST THE ENTIRE 3 HOUR BROADCAST! YOU ARE TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING!~!!!!!!!

Dumbass.

Wanting one team to beat another team now makes you a racist?

Maybe he was in a fantasy league?

Maybe he was in a chart league?

Maybe he has friends associated with the Tennessee program?

Maybe he's just a fan of Tennessee sports?

Maybe he has ties to the Memphis area?

Maybe he is a big supporter for all volunteers?

Maybe he dislikes Rutgers?

OR IS IT BECAUSE RUTGERS HAS 2 WHITES ON THE TEAM AND TENNESSEE HAS THREE!!! THREE > TWO! (might be 4.. can't tell with one of them)

Or maybe it's deeper.... Rutgers is coached by a Black woman.. and Tennessee is coached by a white one. That has to be it.

I mean, he was obviously referring to his fantasy team while his buddies tossed around Jiggaboo references.

[Parkbandit]

Dude.. no one is questioning what Imus said wasn't racist, stupid or ignorant.

I was making fun of Tijay for posting the extra snippet, as if I was trying to hide something. The place I found the snippet included everything I posted.

Oh, and it didn't include your quote of beating a clean team either... which makes no sense since both teams were comprised of mostly black women.

[TheEschaton]

The use of the word "nigger" as adopted by the black community is like any other term in history which has been incorporated by other minority groups to negate the meaning of the term. Another recent example, the use of "fag" in the gay community.

Another not so recent example: "yankee", which was a derogatory term used by the British to refer to colonialists, which is now proudly self-labelled by yankees far and wide.

It's called sociology, folks.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

LOL.. thanks for the sociology lesson TheE.. not sure anyone asked for it though.

What was your point?

[Nieninque]

Sayone someone is wrong without citing a source to back up your assertions just make your argument seem... lacking.

Having worked in a prison for a number of years, I have my own preconceptions of convicted criminals, their actual guilt by admission, their admission of crimes not convicted of, and lastly their sentences.

With that said, I would have to disagree with your claim on face value.

THE SOURCE HAS ALREADY BEEN POSTED!

Go read the thread. Daniel linked some stuff.

Read some Commission for Racial Equality stuff about eh same stuff going on in the UK

http://www.cre.gov.uk

This is interesting http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/s95race02.pdf

For your benefit, I have bolded the word in your statement that shows that your opinion of the criminality of Black people is racist. And your experience at work only shows the number of people that have been sent there, not the ones that werent.

No-one is saying that the people convicted of the crimes in this discussion were not guilty of the crime, what they are saying is that a higher percentage of white people are also guilty of the crime and are not incarcerated for it.

Basically, two people get caught with drugs on them. For the same amount of drugs, the Black man is much more likely to be sent to prison than the white man despite the fact that their crime is exactly the same.

Statistical evidence from Criminal Justice departments bears this out.

[Latrinsorm]

Okay, Latrin. How does racism effect the average white person in America."Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Putting that aside, the obnoxious flaw in your argument is the suggestion that the "average white person" isn't close to any black (or otherwise of minority racial status) people, average or otherwise.

[TheEschaton]

While I agree Latrin, you cannot discount the shared experience of being a victim of racism. It's like becoming an immediate expert. A white person has to study long and hard to become an expert enough to even come on par with simple experiential knowledge.

-TheE-

[Jolena]

While I agree Latrin, you cannot discount the shared experience of being a victim of racism. It's like becoming an immediate expert. A white person has to study long and hard to become an expert enough to even come on par with simple experiential knowledge.

-TheE-


It still amuses me that you (in general you) seem to be forgetting about the fact that discrimination is NOT exclusive to racism. For example - Women, no matter color, have faced discrimination in the legal system, in employment, and in general society for quite some time. We also have to 'work harder to get where we want to be in society, simply because we were born female rather than male' (to use a paraphrase of a point made in one of Daniel's posts). It's still occuring today in fact. So, while it may not be that a white woman knows what it is like to experience discrimination based on her color, she damned sure knows what a glass ceiling is, and the discrimination is there, regardless. It's hardly fair in my opinion to think that just because a person might not experience discrimination based on their color, they aren't knowledgable and aren't affected by discrimination enough to qualify to have an opinion or feel it affects them.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm not saying having someone I care about being subjected to racism (or any form of bigotry) is the same as me in the same. I'm saying it has an effect, and it's idiotic to suggest either that it doesn't or that I'm not actually close to any black people. I don't think Daniel's an idiot, but it was a really stupid thing to say.

[Drew2]

Another recent example, the use of "fag" in the gay community.


Shut up, fag.

[Nieninque]

It still amuses me that you (in general you) seem to be forgetting about the fact that discrimination is NOT exclusive to racism. For example - Women, no matter color, have faced discrimination in the legal system, in employment, and in general society for quite some time. We also have to 'work harder to get where we want to be in society, simply because we were born female rather than male' (to use a paraphrase of a point made in one of Daniel's posts). It's still occuring today in fact. So, while it may not be that a white woman knows what it is like to experience discrimination based on her color, she damned sure knows what a glass ceiling is, and the discrimination is there, regardless. It's hardly fair in my opinion to think that just because a person might not experience discrimination based on their color, they aren't knowledgable and aren't affected by discrimination enough to qualify to have an opinion or feel it affects them.

Not to mention there has yet to be any mention of the sexism in this boke's comments, given the fact that they were supposedly commenting on a basketball match (or was it baseball?).

We have stuff like that over women's football. The president of football's governing body in Europe made some sexist comment about women's shorts or something like that...yeah thanks dumbass.

Just do your fucking job.

[Sean]

Didn't Billy Packer just take some heat for saying implying that someone would fag out on a bet?

[Anebriated]

So me and my boy warclaidhm tried to go down to a studio the other day and tried to get a rap label. Well needless to say they just laughed at us and told us to get out. THIS IS CLEARLY RACISM AND NOT THE FACT THAT WE USED WARCLAIDHM'S CLEANING OUT THE CLOSET.

[Gan]

While I agree Latrin, you cannot discount the shared experience of being a victim of racism. It's like becoming an immediate expert. A white person has to study long and hard to become an expert enough to even come on par with simple experiential knowledge.

-TheE-

Thats assuming that a white person has never been the victim of racisim/predejuce. Thats assuming an awful lot these days. ;) Not to mention assuming wrongly.

Perhaps white people may not experience racisim in America (which isnt the case nowdays with exposure to areas all black, all hispanic, all middle eastern, all asian, etc).

I could say I've been there and done that. But it would not change your viewpoint of white people any, so I wont. (Should that statement from you be considered racist?)

[Daniel]

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Putting that aside, the obnoxious flaw in your argument is the suggestion that the "average white person" isn't close to any black (or otherwise of minority racial status) people, average or otherwise.

The "Average" white person enjoys more privledge in America than the "Average" Minority. Period.

What the fuck are you trying to say? That doesn't mean that there aren't white people who have to work hard, or that there aren't privledge black people. Do I really have to explain the concept of "average" to you?

To further explain. It's not injustice. Sure, being subjected to racism is "rough" but at the same time, racism against white American's never manifests itself in a war that would imply "injustice" as we define Justice in America. It doesn't deny them rights, it doesn't deny them Privledges or anything else.

You can call me a nigger all fucking day and night and I won't give a fuck, but I sure as fuck care when it's more likely for me to go to Jail than graduate from college.

[Daniel]

It still amuses me that you (in general you) seem to be forgetting about the fact that discrimination is NOT exclusive to racism. For example - Women, no matter color, have faced discrimination in the legal system, in employment, and in general society for quite some time. We also have to 'work harder to get where we want to be in society, simply because we were born female rather than male' (to use a paraphrase of a point made in one of Daniel's posts). It's still occuring today in fact. So, while it may not be that a white woman knows what it is like to experience discrimination based on her color, she damned sure knows what a glass ceiling is, and the discrimination is there, regardless. It's hardly fair in my opinion to think that just because a person might not experience discrimination based on their color, they aren't knowledgable and aren't affected by discrimination enough to qualify to have an opinion or feel it affects them.

Eh. I'd suggest that the prevalence of sexism is relatively insignificant today. Although, this may not hold out at select levels of assessment I'd say it holds true.

Today, Females are more likely to graduate and obtain higher degrees than males, by far. As an example.

[Sean of the Thread]

nevermind I'm just buzzed.

[Parkbandit]

Today, Females are more likely to graduate and obtain higher degrees than males, by far. As an example.

Quote your source that claims this. Also, please define "By far".

I hope this isn't another one of your making shit up to bolster your argument posts.. again.

[CrystalTears]

It's a good thing I'm heading home because the blood rushed to my head with that one.

[Daniel]

Quote your source that claims this. Also, please define "By far".

I hope this isn't another one of your making shit up to bolster your argument posts.. again.

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/cps2005/tab10-01.xls

BTW. I'm still waiting on you to post your numbers that refute the fact that Black's are disproportionately incarcerated in America.

[TheEschaton]

It still amuses me that you (in general you) seem to be forgetting about the fact that discrimination is NOT exclusive to racism. For example - Women, no matter color, have faced discrimination in the legal system, in employment, and in general society for quite some time. We also have to 'work harder to get where we want to be in society, simply because we were born female rather than male' (to use a paraphrase of a point made in one of Daniel's posts). It's still occuring today in fact. So, while it may not be that a white woman knows what it is like to experience discrimination based on her color, she damned sure knows what a glass ceiling is, and the discrimination is there, regardless. It's hardly fair in my opinion to think that just because a person might not experience discrimination based on their color, they aren't knowledgable and aren't affected by discrimination enough to qualify to have an opinion or feel it affects them.

Believe me, I've been working in women's empowerment movements awhile, I do not forget other populations. The situation with slavery in this country, and how it has affected the African American community at large, is the most obvious example.

However, women cannot speak to the discrimination of being black (unless they are black women). Discrimination is not a uniform event, it is an event which differs based on the situation.

Most people I know who are of two different discriminated groups (the most clear example I can think of is a gay, black male friend of mine) will tell you being discriminated against because of one's ______-hood, is much different than being discriminated against because of one's _________-hood.

-TheE-

[Bobmuhthol]

Females are more likely to get higher degrees because there are more of them enrolled as students?

[Jolena]

Eh. I'd suggest that the prevalence of sexism is relatively insignificant today. Although, this may not hold out at select levels of assessment I'd say it holds true.

Today, Females are more likely to graduate and obtain higher degrees than males, by far. As an example.


Unfortunately, graduating and obtaining a degree doesn't equate to NOT having to face discrimination when it comes to rising in the ranks of employment, getting equal pay to that of a male counterpart, obtaining a high rank in government (I doubt we'll see a woman president in MY lifetime for example, even though Clinton is trying), or having to work harder than a male to get recognition for accomplishments. You, as a black man, can also graduate college, get a good job, obtain a high rank in government etc. But just like a woman, you have to work harder to obtain that acknowledgement of your work.

Regardless, the POINT I am making Daniel, is that while a white person might not have experience to the degree of a black person in the discrimination of racism, it doesn't mean that a white person can't have felt discrimination in another form. Neither form makes one more qualified than the other to have an opinion or feel the effects of discrimination. You, however, are attempting (in my opinion from your posts) to say that if you are white, and aren't discriminated against for your color, then you don't really have a valid complaint or understanding of discrimination, as it certainly doesn't (or hasn't) affected you as it had a black person. I disagree.

[Daniel]

Females are more likely to get higher degrees because there are more of them enrolled as students?

Yes.

Unless you know of a way to get a higher degree without enrolling in college.

[Daniel]

really have a valid complaint or understanding of discrimination, as it certainly doesn't (or hasn't) affected you as it had a black person. I disagree.

Not quite. I'm saying that *you* don't have to feel the effects as much as the other person (on average). That's a fact. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Once again, that doesn't mean that *you* personally have never felt significant adverse discrimination, while every black person has. It just means, you randomly pick a black women in America and a random white women than chances are that discrimination has a higher effect on the black woman.

Clear?

[TheEschaton]

And I'm saying that a white person's experience of discrimination as gay, female, Muslim, whatever, speaks to nothing but knowledge of discrimination as gay, female, and Muslim.

You cannot say that a white woman, by being discriminated against for being a woman, can speak to the discrimination felt by African Americans. They are totally different contextual backgrounds.

-TheE-

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Yes.

Unless you know of a way to get a higher degree without enrolling in college.>>

If you had the number of males and the number of females who were eligible to go to college in the first place, you'd have a case. You can't say that more female students = more chance for a female to succeed if a higher percentage of the eligible male population is graduating.

Also, race is a definite factor there, so removing that and saying all males vs. all females is a little bizarre in itself.

[Daniel]

<<Yes.

Unless you know of a way to get a higher degree without enrolling in college.>>

If you had the number of males and the number of females who were eligible to go to college in the first place, you'd have a case. You can't say that more female students = more chance for a female to succeed if a higher percentage of the eligible male population is graduating.

[quote]

If you are suggesting the hypothesis that more males graduate from college despite having lower enrollment numbers, then you would undoubtedly see a tapering off the amount of women enrolled in higher levels of education.

However, that is not the case at all. In fact, you see an increase in the male\female ratio the higher you go. Unless, somehow, thousands of women around the country are failing out of college in their last year, at every single level then your hypothesis has no basis.

[quote]

Also, race is a definite factor there, so removing that and saying all males vs. all females is a little bizarre in itself.

How exactly is that bizarre? There are definately greater disparities between races, but that doesn't change the general disparity for females, which is the factor we are looking to single out here. This is something that you learn when you take a college level statistics \ econ \ public policy research class. Let us know when you finish up high school.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<It just means, you randomly pick a black women in America and a random white women than chances are that discrimination has a higher effect on the black woman.>>

Way to classify discrimination into degrees; that's a great way to solve the problem. "Our discrimination is more important than yours!!!"

Every person in America has been directly discriminated against, regardless of how (un)important you think it is.

[Daniel]

<<It just means, you randomly pick a black women in America and a random white women than chances are that discrimination has a higher effect on the black woman.>>

Way to classify discrimination into degrees; that's a great way to solve the problem. "Our discrimination is more important than yours!!!"

Every person in America has been directly discriminated against, regardless of how (un)important you think it is.


I'm sorry Bob. I didn't realize you being discriminated against was such a touchy issue.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<How exactly is that bizarre? There are definately greater disparities between races, but that doesn't change the general disparity for females, which is the factor we are looking to single out here.>>

Let's say that every male that drops out is Hispanic, and every female that earns a graduate degree is black. This is a very strong assumption, but consider it for a second. Every male graduates from high school except the Hispanic ones, some of them go on to get graduate degrees, and every female ends their education before earning a graduate degree except the black ones. Can you still say that females are more likely than males to graduate and earn degrees at every level?

It's an improbable scenario, but without race information, those numbers really don't say much.

[Nieninque]

<<Yes.

Unless you know of a way to get a higher degree without enrolling in college.>>

If you had the number of males and the number of females who were eligible to go to college in the first place, you'd have a case. You can't say that more female students = more chance for a female to succeed if a higher percentage of the eligible male population is graduating.

Also, race is a definite factor there, so removing that and saying all males vs. all females is a little bizarre in itself.

It is also worth pointing out that the sample Daniel used was for Hispanic people.


Table 10. Type of College and Year Enrolled for College Students 15 Years Old and Over, by Age, Sex, Attendance Status, Race, and Hispanic Origin: October 2005

Interesting just the same, but it's a bit of a narrow sample. What about the population as a whole.

[Nieninque]

Way to classify discrimination into degrees; that's a great way to solve the problem. "Our discrimination is more important than yours!!!"

That's what people do though.

There is a hierarchy of prejudice. While racism is more widespread and ingrained that most other forms of prejudice (arguably except sexism) the impact of any prejudice and discrimination on any person amounts to the same thing.

[Daniel]

<<How exactly is that bizarre? There are definately greater disparities between races, but that doesn't change the general disparity for females, which is the factor we are looking to single out here.>>

Let's say that every male that drops out is Hispanic, and every female that earns a graduate degree is black. This is a very strong assumption, but consider it for a second.




Let's not.

Controlling for factors such as Race\Sex\socio economic status is common practice.

The data for race is easily available at the same source. If you want us to believe that race is such a huge factor in the analysis of sexual discrimination than please use the available numbers to support your asinine argument that has no baring on reality.


[/QUOTE]

[Daniel]

It is also worth pointing out that the sample Daniel used was for Hispanic people.



Interesting just the same, but it's a bit of a narrow sample. What about the population as a whole.

Nope it wasn't.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/school/cps2005.html

That is the source page with all the tables.

I used all races.

Hispanic is:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/cps2005/tab10-06.xls

Black: http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/cps2005/tab10-04.xls

White: http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/cps2005/tab10-02.xls

[Warriorbird]

"I'm sorry Bob. I didn't realize you being discriminated against was such a touchy issue.
-Daniel"

...y'know...it's hard out there for a white kid.

:smirks:

Honestly? I can sometimes see the other side of the coin on that one though. On a whole, white people face a whole lot less difficulty than black people in many many aspects of life. With that said, I was pretty impolite with this girl I went to college with (her high school was Sidwell Friends, the school that Chelsea went to) who told me that "her struggle was automatically more difficult than mine." Not every black person has it bad. More do than white people, however.

I do think there's a lot of racism shown in sentencing and sometimes even in laws themselves. Flailing at figures doesn't do much good when you take a look at the number of incarcerated black men.

[Jolena]

Not quite. I'm saying that *you* don't have to feel the effects as much as the other person (on average). That's a fact. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Once again, that doesn't mean that *you* personally have never felt significant adverse discrimination, while every black person has. It just means, you randomly pick a black women in America and a random white women than chances are that discrimination has a higher effect on the black woman.

Clear?

No, it's not clear. And here is where we butt heads, I suppose. Yes, a black woman has to face discrimination in two forms - racial and sexism. However, I do not agree that a white person (which is your statement, not mine) shouldn't have an opinion or feel upset about one form of discrimination being called out while others are not placed in near as much focus.

Which is basically what this boils down to, isn't it? People on this thread have expressed that they find it frustrating that if this was a black speaker who made a poorly thought out comment about white women on a basketball team, then it wouldn't have garnered NEAR the attention that it has with a white speaker against black women on a basketball team. The juxt of that is that discrimination in any form is bullshit. However, when it is discrimination against white people by a black person, or when its sexism (see the term 'ho' as a term used about women no matter what color frequently to be clear), or any other random type of discrimination, it's suddenly not that big of a deal.

Then throw in the fact that you seem to think that if we are white, we shouldn't have comments to make about this because obviously we can't have experienced discrimination that is harsh enough to even compare with what black people experience. Now, I agree that different forms of discrimination produce different effects. However, that doesn't make one more important than another. So yes, when you make the comments you have in this thread, I disagree. I, as a woman, know the affects of discrimination and have felt them myself. I, as a white person, therefore also know the affects and have felt them myself. My experience is no less important than yours as a black man, or the poor women on the Rutgers team who faced that idiot Imus and his comments. It doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion, or the right to 'talk about' the injustice of placing more importance on one form of discrimination over another.

[Bobmuhthol]

Well, I'm done. Arguing with people who obviously know everything isn't productive at all. My bad, I forgot that you can just make statements with incomplete data and have them be totally flawless and unquestionable.

[Daniel]

No, it's not clear. And here is where we butt heads, I suppose. Yes, a black woman has to face discrimination in two forms - racial and sexism. However, I do not agree that a white person (which is your statement, not mine) shouldn't have an opinion or feel upset about one form of discrimination being called out while others are not placed in near as much focus.

Which is basically what this boils down to, isn't it? People on this thread have expressed that they find it frustrating that if this was a black speaker who made a poorly thought out comment about white women on a basketball team, then it wouldn't have garnered NEAR the attention that it has with a white speaker against black women on a basketball team. The juxt of that is that discrimination in any form is bullshit. However, when it is discrimination against black people by a white person, or when its sexism (see the term 'ho' as a term used about women no matter what color frequently to be clear), or any other random type of discrimination, it's suddenly not that big of a deal.

Then throw in the fact that you seem to think that if we are white, we shouldn't have comments to make about this because obviously we can't have experienced discrimination that is harsh enough to even compare with what black people experience. Now, I agree that different forms of discrimination produce different effects. However, that doesn't make one more important than another. So yes, when you make the comments you have in this thread, I disagree. I, as a woman, know the affects of discrimination and have felt them myself. I, as a white person, therefore also know the affects and have felt them myself. My experience is no less important than yours as a black man, or the poor women on the Rutgers team who faced that idiot Imus and his comments. It doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion, or the right to 'talk about' the injustice of placing more importance on one form of discrimination over another.


I guess you just have to ask yourself why the American Populace doesn't feel the same sense of shame and outrage when Michael Irving says Tony Romo plays like a brother.

If all things are the same, and all things are equal then obviously the reactions would be as well. However, I didn't see American Express and other large companies pulling sponsership (wtf can't I spell this right). Did you?

There is a difference between types of discrimination and there are degrees of discrimination. It doesn't really matter if you agree or not.

[Daniel]

Well, I'm done. Arguing with people who obviously know everything isn't productive at all. My bad, I forgot that you can just make statements with incomplete data and have them be totally flawless and unquestionable.


Feel free to refute the hypothesis with reasonable assumptions.

[Jolena]

It may not matter if I agree, but it apparently matters to you if I'm white. Because according to your statements, if I'm white, I really don't have a thing to say about this. After all, I've not experienced discrimination that has affected me enough to qualify my opinion.

[Daniel]

It may not matter if I agree, but it apparently matters to you if I'm white. Because according to your statements, if I'm white, I really don't have a thing to say about this. After all, I've not experienced discrimination that has affected me enough to qualify my opinion.

Actually Jolena, I was saying you shouldn't be biching about Racism unless you have had to feel its effects. Go back to my original comments.

This was in response to Parkbandit crying like a pussy when Imus got fired over his racist comments because "Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton are racist too".

You chose to extrapolate that only black people know what it feels like to feel discrimination in America, despite the fact that I've now said otherwise at least 3 times.

[Back]

I was saying you shouldn't be biching about Racism unless you have had to feel its effects.

I’m probably misunderstanding this point, Dan. Are you really saying people should not talk about/do something about/try to stop racism if they aren’t the victims of racism?

[Jolena]

Actually Jolena, I was saying you shouldn't be biching about Racism unless you have had to feel its effects. Go back to my original comments.

This was in response to Parkbandit crying like a pussy when Imus got fired over his racist comments because "Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton are racist too".

You chose to extrapolate that only black people know what it feels like to feel discrimination in America, despite the fact that I've now said otherwise at least 3 times.

Though I often disagree with what PB posts, I will have to say this: What his 'crying like a pussy over Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton' comments truly were about is the same thing that others have posted - Firing Imus is a business decision for MSNBC, and CBS corp, as well as the sponsors involved who pulled their support. But if we want to truly make this into a discrimination issue, then why do we not hold others to the same accountability? Why are people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton allowed to make their comments and noone is crying for 'FIRE HIM/HER. THEY ARE DISCRIMINATING AND WE CAN'T HAVE THAT IN THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE!'
Yet, when a white man makes a stupid, racist comment about a black person, suddenly the uproar is present.

PB's point is valid. Hello pot, meet Kettle to be more blunt in regards to Jackson and Sharpton.

[Daniel]

I’m probably misunderstanding this point, Dan. Are you really saying people should not talk about/do something about/try to stop racism if they aren’t the victims of racism?

Are you suggesting that PB Is really interested in reducing Racism in this country?

[Daniel]

Since apparently no one likes to read.





I never said Racism can only happen if you are black. I said that as an African American citizen of America than you have to deal with the legacy and effects of racism as an endemic part of your life. Whereas, you do not have to do so if you are Caucasian.

This has nothing to do with Racism in Asia, Europe, Africa, South America or anywhere else where racism has manifested itself. I am talking about an American situation that involves American people. Any attempts to detach the issue away from that is missing the point entirely.



Once again. This isn't about what happened in Africa 500-600 years ago. This is about when Europeans went to Africa, brought them to a new country where they were subjugated and Marginalized for centuries and the effects are still being felt today.



I agree. It is neccessary to move on with life. It's my personal beliefs that people like Jesse Jackson do more harm to the black community in the long run as they take away the personal accountability that is neccessary for self determination in any form.

However, I don't think in this particular situation that there is anything wrong by speaking out against a man who made obviously racist comments.


This isn't an issue about Jesse Jackson. It's about a man, who used his media platform to make overtly racist comments and regardless of how you feel about Jesse, Al, or the black community in general it doesn't change what he said, and it doesn't invalidate any sort of negative reaction on the part of the African American community.

[Parkbandit]

Actually Jolena, I was saying you shouldn't be biching about Racism unless you have had to feel its effects. Go back to my original comments.

This was in response to Parkbandit crying like a pussy when Imus got fired over his racist comments because "Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton are racist too".

You chose to extrapolate that only black people know what it feels like to feel discrimination in America, despite the fact that I've now said otherwise at least 3 times.

I guess if I was black.. I wouldn't be crying. I would be excusing Jesse and Al.

Oh wait... that was you. I feel this bad for you ><

[Daniel]

Why are people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton allowed to make their comments and noone is crying for 'FIRE HIM/HER. THEY ARE DISCRIMINATING AND WE CAN'T HAVE THAT IN THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE!'
Yet, when a white man makes a stupid, racist comment about a black person, suddenly the uproar is present.


P.s. Feel free to start the campaign.

Let me know how far it gets.

[Daniel]

I guess if I was black.. I wouldn't be crying. I would be excusing Jesse and Al.

Oh wait... that was you. I feel this bad for you ><

Still waiting on that data there hoss.

[Jolena]

Are you suggesting that PB Is really interested in reducing Racism in this country?


Way to dodge the question. I'm interested in your answer to Backlash regarding your statement of



Actually Jolena, I was saying you shouldn't be biching about Racism unless you have had to feel its effects.

and his response of



Are you really saying people should not talk about/do something about/try to stop racism if they aren’t the victims of racism?

[Parkbandit]

Still waiting on that data there hoss.

Weird.. I'm still waiting for 3 simple answers from you all the way back on page 8.

[Daniel]

Way to dodge the question. I'm interested in your answer to Backlash regarding your statement of



and his response of

I'm saying that anyone interested in doing anything about Racism would not be sitting here crying about liberal pussies when someone who makes racist comments get fired.

I'm saying that anyone who is actually comitted to helping mitigate the effects of Racism in America, won't choose to start at the poor white disc jockey getting blackmailed by the black racists.

I'm saying that if someone wants to start talking about racial issues then they'll first be looking at things like incarceration rates, educational expenditures, immigration policy and any other thing.

The simple fact of the matter is people like PB don't give a flying fuck about racistm. In fact, they actually believe that none exist in America and their "indignation" is nothing other than bitterness at having to face the fact that it still does exist.

I hope you don't consider that "dodging" the question.

[Parkbandit]

Way to dodge the question. I'm interested in your answer to Backlash regarding your statement of



and his response of

Save your breath Jolena. Your great,great, great, great, great, great grandfather might not have been a slave.. so clearly you don't understand what is happening today in association with race. Your opinion means nothing unless you are black.. regardless of your personal backround.

It's only racism if it's a white that is saying it.

[Jolena]

I hope you don't consider that "dodging" the question.


No, for a change, I'm going to have to say that I'm quite happy about your answer. You didn't pull punches.

[Daniel]

Weird.. I'm still waiting for 3 simple answers from you all the way back on page 8.

You must have skipped page 10.