A GM's logic

[natsuki]

>Injustices of the past do not validate injustices of the present.
GameMaster Estild

>So, how about correcting the injustices of the past.
Rob (Vaporous)

>We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.
GameMaster Estild

.......

I didn't particularly care about the discussion held in the cleric dev's forum one way or another, but this logic coming from a GM concerning cleric abilities disgusted me.

[The Ponzzz]

Uhh, what is this all about?

[Gan]

:rofl: at the circular logic by GM Estild.

I hope someone called him on it in that thread.

[Bobmuhthol]

Those two statements are pretty unrelated. Since absolutely no background on the actual issue is given, I can only judge this based on the three sentences posted. And from them I can't find anything conflicting in what Estild said.

[Rathain]

Background on this is that Windi/Shaukal's player(s) had a longstanding issue with the repetitiveness of the cleric spellist. Basically, that bless and preservation granted from voln dampen their uniqueness - and some think it should be unique to clerics. Estild then stated that one cannot take it away from Voln now. Windi's probably just blowing off some steam, b'c Estild has already stated that players of clerics will probably not like their new upcoming spell, 320. Not exactly the best salespitch, but at least he's giving his honest assessment.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'll totally agree with that when guild skills stop being cman skills. Warriors and rogues are less unique!!

There aren't nearly enough people in GS to sustain "unique" classes.

[natsuki]

I was too lazy to post the entire thing. And no I didn't call him out on his logic, what's the point? He's a GM. end of story. That's what most sensible people said on AIM and IG and I agree.

and bob before you make snap judgements. I wrote where it was from(cleric dev folder). Go read it yourself after all it's NOT that far back... And if you can't be bothered... well this isn't important enough to you so lets leave it at that. Those who do care will go and read.

Mind you I didn't particularly care about discussion of cleric spells being so easily accessible or orbs being a pain for clerics(because I don't think they are). But I do find it highly annoying to see a GM reply to a player asking for them to correct an injustice, the GM themself stated was an injustice, with a retarded statement like, "We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.",
really irks.

After all simu has been removing things whenever it suits them. No matter how old they are. So /shrug. Honestly I don't even care about the pure potions or orbs so I guess I shouldn't even bother but this sort of reply/statement along the lines of no no we won't let you convert BAM we're introducing 325 tier 5 convert! happen so often in clerics in particular, I find myself wanting for a little more of the ranger forum professional/tactful wording, I see there. -.-

>FLOYDS4
For the most part, I agree with not giving clerics a profession defining ability, but I also find it leaves a sour feeling in me that the cleric's 4th and 5th level profession spells, (304) Holy Blade and (305) Preservation, were given out to every other profession through Voln, pure potions, and white flasks and yet, we can't have access the (1004) Purification Song in the same way. Yes, I know you can get it in a scroll, but you won't be able to sing a gem up to orb quality so it's not the same.


>Injustices of the past do not validate injustices of the present.

>So, how about correcting the injustices of the past. As long as they exist there is reason for us to believe

>We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<and bob before you make snap judgements. I wrote where it was from(cleric dev folder). Go read it yourself after all it's NOT that far back>>

Let me just hop on that play.net account I don't use and read a forum that sucks dicks to know what you're talking about on this forum, yeah?

<<After all simu has been removing things whenever it suits them.>>

A player asking for Voln skills to be removed is fucking ridiculous. If Simu was ever going to do it, they wouldn't need players to bring it up first.

509 is worse than Surge of Strength, OH NOEZ WIZARDS ARE USELESS.

[natsuki]

>Let me just hop on that play.net account I don't use and read a forum that sucks dicks to know what you're talking about on this forum, yeah?

Yes because obviously then it doesn't pertain to you and quite frankly I really don't care explaining to someone who's slow to the catch, as cruel as that may sound.

[Bobmuhthol]

Obviously.

[Caede]

I'm disappointed. I thought this was going to be a new Andraste conspiracy theory.

[Latrinsorm]

And no I didn't call him out on his logic, what's the point? He's a GM. end of story.Unless it's Khaladon, every GM I've seen has a better-than-average grasp on logic. It's usually their premises that are stupid. Which brings us to the premise in question:
a GM reply to a player asking for them to correct an injustice, the GM themself stated was an injustice, with a retarded statement like, "We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.",It's not really hard to see what Estild means here. Giving Volners LK in the first place was wrong, but taking it away now would be more wrong. I'd like to know which system of ethics you espouse that says more wrong is better than less wrong. If you don't have such a system, then it's really not such a "retarded" statement, is it?

People are seriously upset by Volners having lifekeep? Seriously? How is it that you justify hurting other people (by having their characters decay when they otherwise wouldn't) just to give your chosen profession a "profession-defining" ability?

[natsuki]

Honestly I don't care so much about the issue itself, hence why I didn't bother with it. But that still makes the GM's response unthoughtful. Out of all the options of responses one could of made, he ate his own tail as far as I'm concerned. People who have been reading the dev forum for a loooong time already notice this pattern and tend to ignore it. I do the same for the most part except when it's so blatantly obvious and bad to form.

Revisions of past abilities, major overhauls, has been done before again and again. Clerics went through it. Other systems went through it.

What would of been a logical response would be anything from sorry we'd like to but don't have the resources or while that would be logical it isn't plausible atm. After all society reviews were something that was planned but never went through. At this point anything would of been better form than justifying yourself by biting your own rear. Noticing a mistake is a good thing hence the first line would of been a great line except for the response to fixing past mistakes. It's just not professional(no pun intended).


as for the spells they've always been under fire for being way too easily attainable without a cleric(pure potions being the biggest gun, because they are bought and sold regularly). Even in plat. As for the voln thingy IDC, although that comes up again and again too. The thing is voln was necessary in the PAST because death was permanent. Cept times changed. If sym keep became a kick asse ability I certainly wouldn't complain. If it became a lame one though yeah I'd be just as annoyed.

Going onto "uniqueness". This is not a matter of who it hurts but a "perception". No one plays a game to feel un-unique. Although I personally think unique is what you make of yourself, I know I am of the minority.

I can certainly understand from a gaming perspective it's not healthy either to make players feel their class is NOT "unique" to the environment. Going from the sarcastic comments and lack of people enthusiastically posting and windi's comment that cleric's lost their "unique". Eh not very healthy overall. I can certainly empathize with that position also.

But that's not the pt of my orig post. My pt was I hate it when GM's bite their own words towards a player. It gives the impression of playing a game where someone has no intention of putting at LEAST the very LEAST a semblence of trying to keep things fair as possible. And this really starts with taking responsibility of one's own words.

[Latrinsorm]

Revisions of past abilities, major overhauls, has been done before again and again. Clerics went through it. Other systems went through it.Can you name any case where the only reason was "to give another profession a profession-defining ability"? If not, how are those revisions relevant?
What would of been a logical response would be anything from sorry we'd like to but don't have the resources or while that would be logical it isn't plausible atm.I think you're confusing "logical" with "palatable".
It gives the impression of playing a game where someone has no intention of putting at LEAST the very LEAST a semblence of trying to keep things fair as possible. And this really starts with taking responsibility of one's own words.I have no idea how you manage to derive this from the GM explicitly stating that he or she won't push for the change because it wouldn't be fair to Volners. There's no contradiction in what the GM says. All there is is the fact that you've gotten so excited over the admission of "injustices of the past" that you demand the "injustices of the present".

[Andreal]

Natsuki was probably going for everyone here to say OMG THT GM R SUX0RS B/C R NOT LOGICL POTATOS AND GRAVY WITH BISCUITS AND CHICKEN or something.

As for Voln having LK... Big deal. You can get a white flask anywhere. And Spirit Servants LK you too, and *GASP* thats not Clerics only either. (Currently anyways.) As not really liking Voln much, I can probably count of 2 hands how many times I've been LKed with Voln. I usually prefer to decay anyways.

Because if I don't a certain Dhe'nar tries to turn me into a zombie. :(

[Shari]

Natsuki was probably going for everyone here to say OMG THT GM R SUX0RS B/C R NOT LOGICL POTATOS AND GRAVY WITH BISCUITS AND CHICKEN or something.


DOFL, I'm so putting this in my sig.

[Methais]

I agree with not giving clerics a profession defining ability, but I also find it leaves a sour feeling in me that the cleric's 4th and 5th level profession spells, (304) Holy Blade and (305) Preservation, were given out to every other profession through Voln, pure potions, and white flasks

Minor Shock, Minor Water, Minor Fire, Major Cold, Blood Burst, Mana Disrupt, Limb Disruption, and Disintegrate were given out to every other profession through wands. This takes away from the uniqueness of wizards and sorcerers. Then there's white crystals, a very common item, taking away from the uniqueness of wizards. Not to mention the AI crystal, which takes away from the uniqueness of bards.

Furthermore, that empath spell cry for help or whatever it's called takes away from the uniqueness of Voln and symbol of need, which is a society defining ability. Because of this, cry for help should be removed immediately.


and yet, we can't have access the (1004) Purification Song in the same way. Yes, I know you can get it in a scroll, but you won't be able to sing a gem up to orb quality so it's not the same.

I've sung plenty of gems up to orb quality with a scroll.


We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.

Given the state GS is in do you really think a huge nerf (probably even a catastrophic nerf to a lot of players) to Voln would be a smart business move right about now?

[Andreal]

Clerics have the potential to have longer LK times(based on Lore training) and it costs mana(which replenishes by itself) instead of favor(which you have to actually do something to get).

Regardless, white flasks win.

[Xaerve]

I'm disappointed. I thought this was going to be a new Andraste conspiracy theory.

Read it upside down.

[Artha]

Natsuki is awesome. The end.

[Davenshire]

>Injustices of the past do not validate injustices of the present.
GameMaster Estild

>So, how about correcting the injustices of the past.
Rob (Vaporous)

>We are not about to remove an existing and important part of a society after allowing them the ability for so many years.
GameMaster Estild

.......

I didn't particularly care about the discussion held in the cleric dev's forum one way or another, but this logic coming from a GM concerning cleric abilities disgusted me.

---Why the HELL wasn't this quoted in the first FIVE replies, as forum policy by whoever I cannot remember?---

Rule #1 Don't throw something like this up until you count to ten, and if you do at least give everyone a clue as to what the heck yer talking about ; )

Rule #2 If yer upset about somehting so trivial, it is time to go out and stand in direct sunlight for over 1/2 an hour, and maybe play frisbee with yer dog, (if you haven't strangled it to death already because it is in with the GM's on the cleric/injustice conspiracy.)

This thread gets a big ol' :wtf:

[Rathain]

---Why the HELL wasn't this quoted in the first FIVE replies, as forum policy by whoever I cannot remember?---

Rule #1 Don't throw something like this up until you count to ten, and if you do at least give everyone a clue as to what the heck yer talking about ; )

Rule #2 If yer upset about somehting so trivial, it is time to go out and stand in direct sunlight for over 1/2 an hour, and maybe play frisbee with yer dog, (if you haven't strangled it to death already because it is in with the GM's on the cleric/injustice conspiracy.)

This thread gets a big ol' :wtf:

I think she (Natsuki) pretty much stated it's not a big deal, but roundabout logic to answer your customer's questions might irk them a bit. Sometimes, a GM's response sounds as if they are doing the players a massive favor, rather than responding to a payed service. Granted, they are being paid in the currency equivalent of rupies, but still, no one is coercing them to working for simu.... again, nothing new.

[Drew2]

I'm with Artha, Natsuki = <3

[Methais]

I think she (Natsuki) pretty much stated it's not a big deal, but roundabout logic to answer your customer's questions might irk them a bit.

At least the GM was being honest and not sugar coating things. Gotta give him points for that if nothing else.

[g++]

I think the underlying problem is really that clerics just suck, I used to play Shaukal quite a bit myself heh, back when greg owned him drone hunted him next to my main at the time gulath from 90 to 120 when clerics didnt suck, and I have a 70th level cleric sitting inactive now and every time I log him in I just think Wow what a POS they turned you into. I mean a profession circle with two ways to cast uncurse SWEET. The spell circle actually has the same amount of ways to counter one sorcerer spell that it does to effectively kill things how messed up is that? I havent cast uncurse since an invasion in 1998 awsome. Everything about clerics hardcore sucks they should just kill the class and give everyone with a cleric a 500 dollar refund or a sorcerer of like level, fire the cleric profession GMs and call it a day. Maybe Andraste too as long as were fixing things.

[Back]

I'm with Artha, Natsuki = <3

Thats enough for me. :howudoing:

[ElanthianSiren]

I actually agree with clerics being tweaked oddly. You can reset your entire skills path every year, but you can't reset your deity once every five? It seems silly.

I just have never seen any change come from SIMU in response to people taking this type of angle (I used to take it often). Staff probably expects it. The GM didn't cuss you out or say because I said so! If you're so irritated that it comes to crying out on a board like this one, (please research the unique love that we regularly extend our posters), all you really can do is find another game, quit for awhile, or just play on the weekend or when you have nothing better to do. "Deinvest" yourself.

[Kuyuk]

Shaukal is a douche.

[Rathain]

I think the underlying problem is really that clerics just suck, I used to play Shaukal quite a bit myself heh, back when greg owned him drone hunted him next to my main at the time gulath from 90 to 120 when clerics didnt suck, and I have a 70th level cleric sitting inactive now and every time I log him in I just think Wow what a POS they turned you into. I mean a profession circle with two ways to cast uncurse SWEET. The spell circle actually has the same amount of ways to counter one sorcerer spell that it does to effectively kill things how messed up is that? I havent cast uncurse since an invasion in 1998 awsome. Everything about clerics hardcore sucks they should just kill the class and give everyone with a cleric a 500 dollar refund or a sorcerer of like level, fire the cleric profession GMs and call it a day. Maybe Andraste too as long as were fixing things.

They turned clerics into a support class. Overall, I'm fine with what they've done with clerics. I just find it funny when Estild or Nilven chime in and try to make the class sound like something something it's obviously not. It's funny that you mentioned a "fixclass" and abolishment of clerics - I know of more than a few that would happily change their character to a sorcerer, if not for the time they've already put into their cleric.