God?

[Parkbandit]

Watching "Walking with Cavemen" the other day.. I was thinking.. how do people who claim there is a God explain this fossil evidence?

How do they explain dinosaurs?

[imported_Kranar]

What about dinosaurs, what about fossils?

That's like asking "How do people who claim there's a moon explain the Sun?"

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kranar
What about dinosaurs, what about fossils?

That's like asking "How do people who claim there's a moon explain the Sun?"

Not really if you know of the bible.

In the Bible, "God created the heavens and the Earth" within 6 days. On the 7th he rested. Now I don't know the Bible like many do, but I think He created the animals on the 5th day and Man on the 6th day.

Scientific evidence shows that true "Man" evolved from ape like creatures.

Scientific evidence shows that "Man" didn't arrive on the planet until some million years after the dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

The scientific evidence is in direct conflict with the Creation suggested in the Bible.

[Scott]

<<In the Bible, "God created the heavens and the Earth" within 6 days. On the 7th he rested. Now I don't know the Bible like many do, but I think He created the animals on the 5th day and Man on the 6th day. >>

What counts as a day? I don't know if god said, 1 day equals 24 hours. Remember that there we have no idea that time is relatively to this time. Assuming that the bible claims the earth is no where near billion years old, it's a pretty safe bet to say (if you believe in the bible) that these "7 days" were not in fact "Seven 24 hour days"


<<Scientific evidence shows that true "Man" evolved from ape like creatures. >>

Ever hear of the missing link?

<<Scientific evidence shows that "Man" didn't arrive on the planet until some million years after the dinosaurs roamed the Earth. >>

That time thing again... 1 day = millions of years.

[Edited on 6-23-2003 by Gemstone101]

[imported_Kranar]

<< Not really if you know of the bible. >>

Well no one really KNOWS the bible. Catholic's know one interpretation, Protestant's know another, there's the Christian Science Church that has another interpretation.

The bible was also authored by men, infact there's the belief that Shakespeare even wrote part of the King James version of the bible and hid his name in it.

But that aside, the point is that since it was written by men, the term "days" as in 24 hours, could simply have been a mistranslation on the part of the writers when infact they should have written eras, or periods, sessions, or another term.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Not really if you know of the bible.

In the Bible, "God created the heavens and the Earth" within 6 days. On the 7th he rested. Now I don't know the Bible like many do, but I think He created the animals on the 5th day and Man on the 6th day.

Scientific evidence shows that true "Man" evolved from ape like creatures.

Scientific evidence shows that "Man" didn't arrive on the planet until some million years after the dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

The scientific evidence is in direct conflict with the Creation suggested in the Bible.

The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. It's never been proven as fact.

Carbon dating is still an unreliable way of dating fossils.
Fossil evidence was found a long time ago that man and the dinosaurs could have existed at the same time.

If you read the Bible it states that during the time of Noah there were "giants" roaming the land, and they sought to kill him. Who's to say that those giants were not dinosaurs.

One day of the Lord's time is equal to 1000 years for us.

And finally, maybe the reason dinosaurs were created was to give us fossil fuel sometime in the future?

Ray

[imported_Kranar]

<< The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. It's never er been proven as fact. >>

Although I agree in principle with what you wish to say, I must point out some flaws which I always see stated.

Everything in science is either a theory or a law. Gravity is a theory, the fact that our body is made up of cells is part of cellular theory, the fact that we exist in something called a universe is also a theory. The word theory in science means something far more specific than what it's used for in non-scientific purposes. A theory is an explanation of a law, so just like when you drop something and it falls to the ground (which is a law), the explanation behind that is known as a theory (the theory of Universal Gravitation or the Theory of General Relativity). Just like animals over the course of 100s of thousands of years undergo genetic mutation, the explanation behind that is the theory of evolution.

And just to solidify my point, even in math, which is the science of numbers, has theories. One of those theories states that 1 + 1 = 2 (Number Theory).

So yes, theories are always theories, even if you prove it, it's still a theory as far as science goes.

<< Carbon dating is still an unreliable way of dating fossils. >>

Fossil evidence was found a long time ago that man and the dinosaurs could have existed at the same time. >>

This is impossible. The gap between man and dinosaur is 100s of millions of years, carbon dating is not that inaccurate.

[Edited on 6-23-2003 by Kranar]

[Yahku]

"One day of the Lord's time is equal to 1000 years for us."

Christians saying "well, we don't know how long a day was back then..." always sounded like a way to cover up the fact that their theories are damn near laughable due to the constant re-writes of the bible. its like they doubt their own religion, and are actually trying to cover for it being a damn near sham.

I mean, why would someone take a literal interpretation of the bible, like "thou shall not kill," yet try and fabricate something like God creating everything in 7 days? it reminds me of what i saw yesterday on Somethingawful.com...where the bible is quoted as saying "there is no other God next to me"...is there another God on the otherside of the room? how about on the ceiling? if so, he wouldn't technically be next to GOD, he'd be across the room from him.

You can't just accept the literal interpretation of one part and then claim you have to basically use your imagination on another. When the bible was written it didn't say "okay, on chapters four six and nine you're going to have to use your imagination a bit...remember, we don't know how long a day was...but when it says "Thou Shall Not Kill" you damn well better not kill ANYTHING!"

[Parkbandit]

I know this topic is normally 'taboo' or whatever.. but religion really interests me.

I think people need religion as a way of explaining the unexplainable. Back in the Roman Empire, they didn't know alot of things we take for granted today. They had a god for everything. Why does the sun rise/set? Well, that's Apollo racing his chariot across the sky.

People need to feel comforted in knowing their is life beyond their 80 or so year existance here. "Heaven" is there for people who lead a good life.

The creation of life is still a mystery. How does a place have zero life one day then BOOM.. have life the next? Well, we don't know, so it must be the work of "God". There is no other explanation for it.

There is much scientific evidence to support the evolution theory... fossils, vestigal organs, etc... yet nothing to really support the claims of the Bible.

Why do people still believe in the Bible?

[Scott]

<<Why do people still believe in the Bible?>>

Faith. Just because you can't feel or see it, doesn't mean it isn't there....

The THEORY of Evolution is just a theory, it has facts, but it has a lot of holes as well, such as the "missing link." There are millions of theories out there that have facts, but almost all of them get proven wrong or altered.......

[imported_Kranar]

All knowledge requires a basis, even science. I could ask you why is the sky blue, and you could give a scientific answer, say you're answer is X, then I could ask you "Why is X true?" and then you give an answer of Y, and then I ask "Why is Y true?" and so on so forth. Eventually you too, even with science, will reach a basis, a basis which you can't explain any further, a basis which doesn't even have a further explanation, an explanation which has no reason for being.

But why then do you believe in it, why believe in science? Simple, because you understand that even though there is no explanation behind the basis, you know that the belief has achieved some purpose, has allowed you to do something, something that if you believed in otherwise, you may not have been able to acheive.

Religion, just like any form of knowledge, obeys that same principle. In science the basis are known as laws (Newton's three laws, Einstein's two postulates), in math they're known as axioms (the 9 axioms of ZFC), and in Christianity they're known as the Ten Commandments. Why does one believe in the Bible? Because it makes that individual a better person than they would be otherwise. Because they believe that the existence of God and that the teachings of God through the bible establishes the perfect basis for moral conduct, a perfect basis for the life they wish to live.

One who believes in the Bible believes that when they ask themselves whether engaging in a certain action is right or wrong, they are better off answering that question using the Ten Commandments than using Newton's 3 laws of motion, or some other basis.

"Should I take that man's life? Hmm... Newton's first law tells me that F = ma. I guess that means..."

Or... "Should I take that man's life? Hmm... the 5th Commandment say's Thou shalt not kill. I guess that means..."

Some may find their moral basis in other teachings: the Torah, the Qu'ran, The Communist Manifesto, or Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica, but regardless, each is a basis, each is its own reason for being, and its own reason for believing. None of them have a proof, not even Principia Mathematica, instead... they are the proof.

[Edited on 6-23-2003 by Kranar]

[Xcalibur]

man religion scares the hell out of me
I'm born Catholique, and i always had questions about how the Vatican, the Pape (pope?) and all those rich sons of God interprete the Bible.

I talked to a very knowledgeable (?) guy that was Protestant, and i must say that he believed what he was saying..

My main point to him was if God created ALL in X times, what will happen when extra-terrestrial life will be proved outside of Earth.

First answer he saids, was scientific people are liars, and there isn't life outside of Earth. And if there was life outside of Earth, it would be perfect as Jesus came to earth to save us, and therefore cannot save them...

And in his mind, only Protestants will be saved, rest will rot in hell, as the Musulmans claims, and all other religions... As if God was that evil.



Religious people tend to have that damn 750 A.D. mind when it's about subjects like that, as if we would be the sole people in the universe.

I, myself, think we will see non-humans life within our life line, and that religion will once again go down in the beliefs, even more our glorious Catholiques.

Every religions has a point in common or so, they all tell you what to do... Is God like a master over his slave? Is that the idea of paradise?
doubtful, doubtful

[imported_Kranar]

Just another point to make, it's been proven by several mathematicians that the existence of God is not illogical. Now that doesn't mean that he exists, but that God's existence doesn't conflict with any of the very basic assumptions we make concerning any other field.

This is a good site at the University of Waterloo that outlines the proof and its importance. It's quite clever:

http://www.stats.uwaterloo.ca/~cgsmall/ontology.html

[Xcalibur]

Just one more question... Can Sciences and Religion mix together?

Can you explain the Big Bang with God in mind?
Can you explain the Evolution with God in mind?
Can you explain the existence of the soul with both in mind?

We lived in the dark age cause of religion, i really HOPE that the religion will evolve and follow the step of mankind.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Can you explain the Big Bang with God in mind? >>

If you ask Einstein or Stephen Hawking, you can ONLY explain the Big Bang with God. Einstein was the one who said "God does not play dice with the universe." He refused to accept any body of knowledge that conflicted with the existence of God. Infact all the great mathematicians and scientists have come to accept the existence of God, even Charles Darwin and Isaac Newton.

<< Can you explain the Evolution with God in mind? >>

See above, Charles Darwin firmly believed in God.

[Edited on 6-23-2003 by Kranar]

[Xcalibur]

I was reposting a question (does the Vatican and high religious authory accepts scientific proofs) when i decided to verify if there wasn't already an answer about it, and there is.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jocelyn.bezecourt/darwin.html

french article that says that the Pope has saids that the theory of Evolution is more that just a mere theory, and he saids it was compatible with Christian faith.

Interesting point the article says is...
Reagan had indeed declared during its presidential campaign: "the evolutionism is only a scientific theory, a theory which the scientific community believes also not that infallible as it was formerly believed. In any case, if one decides to teach it in schools, I think that one should also teach the biblical story of Creation

You said they believed in God, but if you take the theory of the Big Bang, which is that the universe is in constant expension, and therefore was once a small amount of ALL matters, isn't just human to just take God into the playground when you try to explain what is "impossible"? Does the defender of God's creation will stick on the Soul's existence?

And what will happen, tomorrow, when we will have all the knowledge we searched?

I feel so tiny when i think about the immensity of that

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
<<Why do people still believe in the Bible?>>

Faith. Just because you can't feel or see it, doesn't mean it isn't there....

The THEORY of Evolution is just a theory, it has facts, but it has a lot of holes as well, such as the "missing link." There are millions of theories out there that have facts, but almost all of them get proven wrong or altered.......

Granted...

but the scientific 'theories' I offer you are based on evidence... what is the Bible based on? Heresay and stories?

[Parkbandit]

Why do people believe what is in the Bible? Because they are brought up that way? They search for an explanation for the unexplainable and all that is offered is the Bible's explanation? Is it just blind faith that the world is such an incredible place.. that it MUST have been created by a superior being? Who is this superior being anyways? Is he actually an alien from a far distant planet that has decided to call Earth his 'home' to create and to nourish?

Let's say 1 planet per 1000 solar systems in this universe has the ability to sustain life... maybe not our lives.. but a life none the less... Let's say there are 100 billion solar systems out there... that's what.. some 100 million potential life sustaining planets. Of those, only 5% actually has life.

What do the creatures on those 5 million planets believe? Do they too believe in our God? The Bible says He created "The Heavens and the Earth"... so does that mean he created the infinite number of planets/suns/solar systems/galaxies? That was some busy 6 days.

Well.. if a day is actually a day and not a millenium. Still busy as heck.

Lots of questions.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Why do people believe what is in the Bible? >>

I'm pretty sure this question was just answered. If you didn't understand then here's a simpler way to answer your question: ask yourself why you believe in science, then replace the word science with the word bible.

That's your answer.

[imported_Kranar]

<< but the scientific 'theories' I offer you are based on evidence... what is the Bible based on? >>

Scientific theories are based on scientific evidence. Religious theories, like the bible, are based on religious evidence. Scientific evidence is based on information aquired through the scientific method. Religious evidence is based on information aquired through whatever basis the religion is established on.

You're telling me there's a scientific method for telling me whether killing another human being is right or wrong? That there's scientific evidence that if I kill you, I'm doing something unethical?

The two types of evidence are independent of one another.

[Edited on 6-23-2003 by Kranar]

[Caels]

I'm not sure what to believe in when it comes to God and the Bible.

I'm partial to the belief that man created God though... not meaning to be blasphemous in anyone's view.

I believe that God is real because human beliefs make Him real. A thought-form as it might be called. I feel the same way about gods of the past as well. Those gods are dead today because no one has faith in them anymore, but that does not mean they were never there.

Another way I view it is that perhaps all gods are the same God, the One God, just in different facets. I probably developed this belief when I started studying pagan religions.

In effect, I believe God is what you make of him, and whatever is best for you is what you will believe. This tends to be a good approach to religion (for me) because it does not condemn any religion.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Caels
I'm partial to the belief that man created God though... not meaning to be blasphemous in anyone's view.

I believe that God is real because human beliefs make Him real. A thought-form as it might be called. I feel the same way about gods of the past as well. Those gods are dead today because no one has faith in them anymore, but that does not mean they were never there.

Another way I view it is that perhaps all gods are the same God, the One God, just in different facets. I probably developed this belief when I started studying pagan religions.


I believe it'S all human to think mankind create God. So if we create God, then who created us?
I don't think our minds it that powerful, if we trully have a "mind"

[Caels]

That is why I said I do not know what to believe when it comes to God.

All anyone has is a theory, or faith, God may or may not exist, and there is no -and probably never will be- proof either way.

As far as our minds being that powerful, I'd have to agree that they are not that powerful individually, but I do believe that as a whole, human consciousness is much more powerful than that.

[Black Jesus]

That's the point though, no one knows. Anyone who says they know for sure either way is dellusional or lying. It's like Santa Claus, he may be out there too.

[imported_Kranar]

What is proof? How do you know anything is true?

These are all concepts we think we know, think we've mastered to the point where we can say God doesn't exist, or God does exist... but just try and sincerely ask yourself how much you really know, and how you know it, and you'll find that "proof" and even "knowledge" are things that go far beyond the simple definitions we give them.

Is science the source of truth? Are our senses the source of truth? Perhaps they deceive us or are inadequate, so we must resort to pure rational thought. But even rationalists understand that they too base their knowledge on something they can not prove.

All I'm trying to point out is that those who believe in God, believe in it with the same legitimacy as those who believe in science or otherwise. To try and disprove religion using science is inconsistent, for even with science one must have certain beliefs that are impossible to prove. I can not prove that God exists, just like the scientist can not prove the laws of motion. It's only once we accept that they are true, without the need of a proof, are we able to derive all other knowledge.

Anyone here ever take a philosophy course? I always believed the best course I ever took was philosophy. Deals with this issue and many others like it.

[Edited on 6-24-2003 by Kranar]

[Caels]

Santa Claus was once a living person. Christopher Cringle was his name. I don't remember the legend, but I recall that he was a very charitable person who gave gifts to children of his town.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Yahku
"One day of the Lord's time is equal to 1000 years for us."

Christians saying "well, we don't know how long a day was back then..." always sounded like a way to cover up the fact that their theories are damn near laughable due to the constant re-writes of the bible. its like they doubt their own religion, and are actually trying to cover for it being a damn near sham.


Genesis 2:16 & 17
And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden [Eden] thou mayest freely eat.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Genesis 5:27
And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

I'd say that was pretty good evidence on just how long a day of the Lord's is.

And another thing, nowhere in the Bible does it state how long Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he ate the "apple", nor does it state how long we was there alone before Eve was created.
For all anyone knows they could have been in there while the dinosaurs lived, died and became extinct.

Ray

[Caels]

We are using Adam and Eve as motor oil?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

Genesis 2:16 & 17
And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden [Eden] thou mayest freely eat.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Genesis 5:27
And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

I'd say that was pretty good evidence on just how long a day of the Lord's is.

And another thing, nowhere in the Bible does it state how long Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he ate the "apple", nor does it state how long we was there alone before Eve was created.
For all anyone knows they could have been in there while the dinosaurs lived, died and became extinct.

Ray

No where in your quotes does this detemine that a day is longer/shorter than the typical 24 hour day. I don't get frmo the quote that a day = 969 years.

Oh.. and EVEN if you could stretch it that far.. are you now saying that the Man was created 5,814 years? Or that there was only 969 years between man and the dinosaurs?

[Black Jesus]

I don't have much respect for philosophy because it basically says that we cannot ever know anything. While this might be true, it is useless knowledge. I will tell you what proof is. Proof is god appearing before tons of people and demonstrating a miracle so impossible that no other explanation would even be in the realm of sanity.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Black Jesus
I don't have much respect for philosophy because it basically says that we cannot ever know anything. While this might be true, it is useless knowledge. I will tell you what proof is. Proof is god appearing before tons of people and demonstrating a miracle so impossible that no other explanation would even be in the realm of sanity.

And this was when?

[imported_Kranar]

<< I don't have much respect for philosophy because it basically says that we cannot ever know anything. >>

That's false. Surely yes, a nihilist or existentialist believes this, but that does not in anyway encompass philosophy. Whatever your view of the world is, is philosophy. If that view is that you know everything, then that's your philosophy. The reason one studies philosophy is to better understand why they believe in what they believe in. It requires that one genuinely is critical of what they know, not because they want to prove to others that they're right, and others are wrong, but because one wants to know sincerely whether THEY are wrong, and perhaps others are right.

[Black Jesus]

Jesus is risen.

[Tsa`ah]

Carbon dating is still an unreliable way of dating fossils.
Fossil evidence was found a long time ago that man and the dinosaurs could have existed at the same time.

C-14 dating is only accurate to 60,000 years. To date, no dinosaur fossils have been found containing a measurable amount of the c-14 isotope. Plenty of c-12, no detectable c-14 within the core of the sample. K-40 is accurate to 1.5 billion years I believe. Then there are others. U-235 and 238, Th 232, and Rubidium-23 (Don't know the periodic symbol of that).

Interesting that we have found several hundreds, if not thousands of fossils from creatures that pre-date anything found resembling human kind. Yet we have not found a single human bone that goes back more than a few million years.



If you read the Bible it states that during the time of Noah there were "giants" roaming the land, and they sought to kill him. Who's to say that those giants were not dinosaurs.

I'm not finding this in the Torah anywhere. Where exactly did you find it?


One day of the Lord's time is equal to 1000 years for us.

I've never read that equation. How exactly did you come up with it?


And finally, maybe the reason dinosaurs were created was to give us fossil fuel sometime in the future?

Ray



So god created dinosaurs to become extinct and decompose into crude petroleum so we could make that 30 minute one way commute to work, ultimately throwing us into war and destroying the environment?

esh...

I thought that's why we had wind, sun, and oil producing plants that could be cultivated. That's just me of course.

[Black Jesus]

So god created dinosaurs to become extinct and decompose into crude petroleum so we could make that 30 minute one way commute to work, ultimately throwing us into war and destroying the environment?

esh...

I thought that's why we had wind, sun, and oil producing plants that could be cultivated. That's just me of course.

You question the motive of our lord and savior Vishnu!? Burn in the bowels of hell you heretic!

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
[quote]If you read the Bible it states that during the time of Noah there were "giants" roaming the land, and they sought to kill him. Who's to say that those giants were not dinosaurs.


I'm not finding this in the Torah anywhere. Where exactly did you find it?


Genesis 6:4
The quote about the giants seeking Noah's life are in another book written by Moses. You'll have to get a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants for that.
Moses 8:18
That reference seems to refer more to "large" men though.

And for the 1000 years = 1 day, do the math, the Lord said: ".....for in the day that thou eatest therof thou shalt surely die."

No one mentioned in the Bible has lived longer than 969 years.

Actually...... nah you guys would never comprehend this so I won't bring it up.

Ray

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Oh.. and EVEN if you could stretch it that far.. are you now saying that the Man was created 5,814 years? Or that there was only 969 years between man and the dinosaurs?

You're not reading right. I said, no one knows how long Adam was in the garden before he ate the "apple". He could have lived there for millennia for all we know.

When Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he became mortal and hence became subject to aging and eventually death.
When he was kicked out of the garden he was a mortal man and lived for 930 years, he died before reaching 1000 years, or in other words, he died before seeing one full day of the Lord's time.

Ray

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Oh.. and EVEN if you could stretch it that far.. are you now saying that the Man was created 5,814 years? Or that there was only 969 years between man and the dinosaurs?

You're not reading right. I said, no one knows how long Adam was in the garden before he ate the "apple". He could have lived there for millennia for all we know.

When Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he became mortal and hence became subject to aging and eventually death.
When he was kicked out of the garden he was a mortal man and lived for 930 years, he died before reaching 1000 years, or in other words, he died before seeing one full day of the Lord's time.

Ray

Your interpretation is so full of holes.. So you are saying that the quote you had before is that a "Lord's Day" now is considered 1000 years?

You still have a couple million unexplained years...

Even if Adam lived a million years.. what does that now have to do with a Lord's Day = 1 million years?

Is this like one dog's year = 7 human ones?

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Oh.. and EVEN if you could stretch it that far.. are you now saying that the Man was created 5,814 years? Or that there was only 969 years between man and the dinosaurs?

You're not reading right. I said, no one knows how long Adam was in the garden before he ate the "apple". He could have lived there for millennia for all we know.

When Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he became mortal and hence became subject to aging and eventually death.
When he was kicked out of the garden he was a mortal man and lived for 930 years, he died before reaching 1000 years, or in other words, he died before seeing one full day of the Lord's time.

Ray

Your interpretation is so full of holes.. So you are saying that the quote you had before is that a "Lord's Day" now is considered 1000 years?

You still have a couple million unexplained years...

Even if Adam lived a million years.. what does that now have to do with a Lord's Day = 1 million years?

Is this like one dog's year = 7 human ones?

You're still not comprehending what I'm saying, and I give up on this thread.

Discussing religion is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and really annoys the pig.

Ray

[Parkbandit]

Actually I'm not at all annoyed or frustrated. I simply do not see your connection between Adam's supposed lifespan and the 'old' way of calculating the length of a day.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

Genesis 6:4
The quote about the giants seeking Noah's life are in another book written by Moses. You'll have to get a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants for that.
Moses 8:18
That reference seems to refer more to "large" men though.

And for the 1000 years = 1 day, do the math, the Lord said: ".....for in the day that thou eatest therof thou shalt surely die."

No one mentioned in the Bible has lived longer than 969 years.

Actually...... nah you guys would never comprehend this so I won't bring it up.

Ray [/i]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, let me get this straight.

You are under the impression that the
Nephllim were giants?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

First and foremost, no where is stature mentioned. Power, prowess, yada yada. Stature no. In no way, shape, or form are the Nephllim referred to as giants.

There are many "theories" and arguments. The most popular is that they were feuding warriors that had grievances with Noah. The second is that they are the offspring of sublime beings B'nai HaElohim (fallen angels) that had copulated with women. The third is that they are B'nai HaElohim. Even B'nai HaElohim are considered human by popular view. Given the root of the name is "Elohim" and "B'nai" or specifically nai (unconjugated) is the root napal ... to fall. I could go on, but for your sake (simplicity and all) it simply translates into those that fell from god, or fallen of god, or even fallen from the grace of god. Most often this describes man. I guess even giant men if you want to pull at straws.

That was for your Gen 6:4 reference. Not at all convincing that there were giants. Or even a sentient race other than man.

As for Moses 8:18 ... The Book of Mormon and it's appendages? Come on man ... Let's get a grip. I'm expected to swallow the Joe Smith was directed by a seraphim named Rhona (sp) to dig up golden tablets .... thousands of years old, that contained the actual words "Jesus" "Jehovah" "God" "Mary".... so on and so forth. And ... that he copied these and buried the golden manuscript again. I'll accept Christ as the son of god and god himself as a benevolent being before I buy that one.

At least try and point out something say over 500 years old.

[Warriorbird]

Joseph Smith dropped ergot. Mmm!

[Edaarin]

If any of you have ever read Inherit the Wind or seen the play, it has a wonderful court scene where an agnostic squares off with the prosecutor about the accuracy of the Bible (creating the world in 7 days is probably the biggest source of conflict between the two). Based on the Scopes-Monkey trial, where a teacher taught evolution to test the ban on teaching it.

God I WISH I had saved the paper I read during one of my classes! Argh! It explained using math that after the "big bang" occured everything was moving away from the explosion at the speed of light.

Based upon articles it concluded that time would have passed much differently on the planet then what we would consider normal.

I don't remember everything it said, and maybe some of you have the time to dig around and find out. But basically it said that the world could have been created in 7 days because it was moving so fast, but that time on earth would have passed at a huge rate hundreds and thousands of years.

But that aside, I have always wondered "If the Universe was created by the "Big Bang", where did the "Big Bang" occur?

Anyway I am sure if someone cares to crunch the numbers, which of course would have be based on mathematical "theory" then I am sure you will come to an answer close to seven days. I have seen the math, read the paper and I was impressed.

That doesn't mean its true, but it does make you think differently about time and space.

Sorry for not reading anyones post before mine. I was directed here ironically from a friend who was looking for information on this very topic.

Strange it would come up TWICE in one day.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5951/creation.html

It was good reading. This was one of the articles I was asked to read for my World Religon courses.

I ended up taking several ethics/relgion/philosophy courses. The class I was asked to read this in was a third tier class.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Anyway I am sure if someone cares to crunch the numbers, which of course would have be based on mathematical "theory" then I am sure you will come to an answer close to seven days. I have seen the math, read the paper and I was impressed. >>

Yes, you're refering to both the special and general theories of relativity. But there is one missing factor, 7 days relative to whom?

7 days relative to an observer on a planet? Doesn't work out then since the creation of earth occured is about 10.5 billion years ago, relative to the planet earth, not 5 days.

If it's relative to God, then it's ambiguous since only God knows how many years go by for every earth year.

[Edited on 6-25-2003 by Kranar]

[Black Jesus]

If it really was traveling at the speed of light (which it wasn't) time would not have elapsed at all. But understand that time is relative. If you are wearing a watch, regardless of how fast you are traveling it would always appear to tick normally as viewed from your eyes. Now if you synchronized that watch with another one and one of the watches accelerated to a great speed then slowed back down and you compared to two then you'd notice the difference. As time elapsed on each watch, an observer traveling with the watch would see time as passing normally.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
As for Moses 8:18 ... The Book of Mormon and it's appendages? Come on man ... Let's get a grip. I'm expected to swallow the Joe Smith was directed by a seraphim named Rhona (sp) to dig up golden tablets .... thousands of years old, that contained the actual words "Jesus" "Jehovah" "God" "Mary".... so on and so forth. And ... that he copied these and buried the golden manuscript again. I'll accept Christ as the son of god and god himself as a benevolent being before I buy that one.

At least try and point out something say over 500 years old.

As I said, I'm done with this thread. I don't knock your beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, please don't belittle mine.

Ray

[Warriorbird]

I think I'd respect Mormonism more without the whole intense racism bit.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
As for Moses 8:18 ... The Book of Mormon and it's appendages? Come on man ... Let's get a grip. I'm expected to swallow the Joe Smith was directed by a seraphim named Rhona (sp) to dig up golden tablets .... thousands of years old, that contained the actual words "Jesus" "Jehovah" "God" "Mary".... so on and so forth. And ... that he copied these and buried the golden manuscript again. I'll accept Christ as the son of god and god himself as a benevolent being before I buy that one.

At least try and point out something say over 500 years old.

As I said, I'm done with this thread. I don't knock your beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, please don't belittle mine.

Ray

That's one of the reasons I thought twice about initiating this thread. I didn't want anyone to believe I was starting it to belittle anyone's religion. That was never my intention.

[Xcalibur]

people that believe really much in religion had that damn aspect to take it personnaly when you question the validity of it.

Protestant people don't believe in the Vatican, yet it's the strongest institute here on earth.

I strongly believe that we, human, are too arrogant as someone said earlier, and we GIVE God what we wanted. Caels sad that maybe God is the manifestation of our soul|mind|subconscient power...

If we follow that track, how do we know that the Greek and the Romans INVENTED their gods to fulfill their needs?
Why they invented them, and we didn't?

[Ramos]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
If we follow that track, how do we know that the Greek and the Romans INVENTED their gods to fulfill their needs?
Why they invented them, and we didn't?

Because we have advanced far beyond those barely civilized, ignorant, gullible simpletons. We have grown far too sophisticated, have gained too much scientific knowledge through the use of reason, for people to ever fall into a mistaken belief system such as the ancient Greeks and Romans did.

[Black Jesus]

Because we have advanced far beyond those barely civilized, ignorant, gullible simpletons. We have grown far too sophisticated, have gained too much scientific knowledge through the use of reason, for people to ever fall into a mistaken belief system such as the ancient Greeks and Romans did.

I beg to differ. Religion is just as prominant now as it was then. Pawns will always exist.

[Red Devil]

Heres a site i made, ENJOY.

http://www.angelfire.com/droid/zyk/Religion_sucks

edit: btw, if anyone remembers the dudes name that says this, i'd appreciate it so i can quote him in full :)

[Edited on 6-26-2003 by Red Devil]

[Trinitis]

That is something I've always hated about "main stream" religions. Sure, the preacher needs to "make a living" but if he has 200 people, who make an avarage of $200 a week, and they are suposed to give 10% of that...thats $4000 a week. Hell, I've NEVER seen ANY preacher that was that damn good, or worth that damn much.

[Black Jesus]

you've obviously never seen jesus preach.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

As I said, I'm done with this thread. I don't knock your beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, please don't belittle mine.

Ray

Ray/Jynxed/Pumachow ....

How very nice of you to duck out of a debate after a snide remark. I really can't say that I'm all that surprised. It is your style after all. You have after all slammed beliefs outside of your own.

If you're going to footnote something theological written in the last couple of centuries, at least copy the text for us to see and reference. For all we know your interpretations could be severely flawed.

[Warriorbird]

I always thought that was "Plat character" Ray.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by draconis nematoda

As I said, I'm done with this thread. I don't knock your beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, please don't belittle mine.

Ray

Ray/Jynxed/Pumachow ....

How very nice of you to duck out of a debate after a snide remark. I really can't say that I'm all that surprised. It is your style after all. You have after all slammed beliefs outside of your own.

If you're going to footnote something theological written in the last couple of centuries, at least copy the text for us to see and reference. For all we know your interpretations could be severely flawed.

Oh please, you have no bloody idea who I am. Jynxed? Pumachow? Get a clue.

I have never once slammed anyone's religous beliefs here or on any other board.

The only reason I'm still even reading this thread is to see how far some people are willing to mock other's beliefs, and much to my complete surpirse, you're still at it.

How's that for a snide remark.

You said you didn't buy the whole Joseph Smith story, so why bother copying text from a book you consider complete fallacy?

And for your information the Book of Mormon was translated from brass plates that contained the five books of Moses. Those plates were obtained 600 years before Christ was born, that would make them a bit older than 2 centuries now wouldn't it.

Ray

P.S.
Just for your edification I will copy what's written in the Book of Moses.

Moses 8:18
And in those days there were giants on the earth, and they sought Noah to take his life, but the Lord was with Noah, and the power of the Lord was upon him.

Why is it so hard to believe there was a race of "giants" when Goliath was one? After all according to the Bible he was 10'-9"

[Morstanya]

One thing I've noticed about discussions (using the term loosely) of this nature is that theists seem to have a need to explain themselves, and agnostics and atheists are usually content with letting it go unanswered. That is a generalization of course. I know some theist that don't feel a need to explain anything.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I always thought that was "Plat character" Ray.

I play in Prime too.

[Neildo]

>>>>First answer he saids, was scientific people are liars, and there isn't life outside of Earth. And if there was life outside of Earth, it would be perfect as Jesus came to earth to save us, and therefore cannot save them...<<<<

Heh, too funny. You know what I'd love to see? Okay, not really love, but you know what I mean. Jesus actually coming down in a chariot of fire (a spacecraft or something as back in the days there was no real way to describe it).. ends up being an alien (or something else unexpected), and then people being so scared they kill him and/or they realize what a sham their religion was and all of a sudden Churches fall and the whole zealot Midwest commits suicide for believing in false ideas.

>>>>If you ask Einstein or Stephen Hawking, you can ONLY explain the Big Bang with God. Einstein was the one who said "God does not play dice with the universe." He refused to accept any body of knowledge that conflicted with the existence of God. Infact all the great mathematicians and scientists have come to accept the existence of God, even Charles Darwin and Isaac Newton.<<<<

That's how I am. I believe there's a God -- some higher being that made everything come together. However, my views are different than the mainstream religions. I'm not ignorant enough to say who or what God is. I tend to use him to explain the unexplainable.

>>>>Another way I view it is that perhaps all gods are the same God, the One God, just in different facets. I probably developed this belief when I started studying pagan religions.<<<<

That's basically how it is. Everyone is believing in the same things.. just said/named differently. Many books/religions interlink with each other. And then the differences are mainly there due to everything being passed down through generations and then somehow changing. God is <insert name> to these people, <insert name> to those people, <insert name> to those other people, yet they're call worshipping the same being.

>>>>I believe it'S all human to think mankind create God. So if we create God, then who created us?
I don't think our minds it that powerful, if we trully have a "mind"<<<<

It depends on how you look at it. Anyone can technically be a god. Be "the" God though? No idea, but we can be a god.

Take a primitive culture such as the tribes in South America many years ago. People fly down there in their "chariot of fire", aka a plane, and visit the natives. They see us doing our miracle of flight, how we can kill in the blink of an eye with a gun, create light without the use of fire, etc etc, and we seem pretty godly. To them, we're god.

Let's also think of cloning. Let's say someone creates a living animal/person through cloning. We just created them. Are we their god? We can do many things that are pretty god-like, so are we our own gods?

Since I was reading the UFO thread first, I'll use this as an example. Let's say aliens have the ability to clone. What if they created us? What if with all the religious stories we read, the people that are referred to are actually those aliens? So here we are worshipping them as our god since they created us, but does that mean they're the one head hauncho god that created all? Nope. So it seems there can be branches of what can be considered demi-gods and the like. We're god to things we clone, to primitive cultures we visit. Aliens are gods to us. Whoever created the aliens is god to them. Whoever created the people who created the aliens are gods. Then zoom right up the pyramid food chain until we reach the one true God who created all.

Now with that said with the various ways there can be multiple gods, were the Greeks and Romans that really nutty? Sure their mythology sounds pretty crazy, but it's really no different than other religions. Each religions have their whacky stories that are unbelievable, but the basis could be true. Who knows. Maybe everyone isn't worshipping the same god of various names and maybe there are multiple gods. There really is a Zues, really is a Jesus, really is a Shiva, really is a whoever else. Maybe they're all drinking tea with each other as they continue to try and create life elsewhere. They could be the embassadors to us like we are to other countries, just on a more cosmic level. :P

Anyhow, yeah, there's some of my crazy little ideas to stir up some thought.

- N

PS - Here's something I found that's similar to my beliefs and other questions I have that talks about the way certain things are said in various holy books:
http://ufoarea.bravepages.com/aas_gods.html

[Edited on Jun th, 2003 by Neildo]