Should he get the death penalty?

[Gan]

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- Jurors on Wednesday recommended the death penalty for John Evander Couey, who was found guilty last week of kidnapping, sexually assaulting and murdering 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford.

The majority of the jury -- 10 in favor of death, 2 against it -- rendered the decision about 5:30 p.m. ET. In Florida, the vote does not have to be unanimous to recommend the death penalty.

Miami-Dade County Circuit Judge Richard Howard will make the final decision on Couey's sentence, but judges typically follow a jury's recommendation.

As the sentence was read, Couey, 48, sat in the courtroom, fiddled with his tie, and interlaced his fingers.

"This is justice for Jessie, but not just Jessie," said Jessica's father, Mark Lunsford, who cried and hugged supporters after Couey was escorted from the courtroom.

"I'm sure there's other victims out there that they didn't get justice," Lunsford continued. "You crossed paths with Couey and he hurt you, today is justice for you regardless of who you are, whether you're a stranger or a relative."

Asked if the recommended sentence brings him closer to healing, he said, "I'm still not too sure about closure."

She clutched a stuffed toy dolphin

Jessica Marie Lunsford was abducted from her Homosassa Springs, Florida, home February 23, 2005. Her body was found nearly a month later, buried within sight of her own home and behind the house where Couey was staying with a relative.

She was found wrapped in garbage bags, holding a stuffed toy dolphin, her hands bound with stereo wire.

Investigators said Couey abducted Lunsford from her bedroom. Jessica died from asphyxiation after being sexually assaulted, according to a medical examiner's report.

Police arrested Couey in Georgia in March 2005 during the search for Jessica.

His confession helped lead investigators to the girl's body, but a judge ruled the confession was inadmissible in court because he had asked for a lawyer the day before he told police he committed the crime.

Evidence at the trial included Jessica's fingerprints in a closet in Couey's trailer and DNA from Jessica's blood and Couey's semen on a mattress in his bedroom.

Although Wednesday's decision may have seemed quick, "we did have to discuss it," juror Thais Prado, 20, said.

"It was something -- of course it's not an easy decision ... it is a person's life. It didn't seem like it was quick, going through it," said juror Marvin Gunn, 38.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/03/14/couey.sentence/index.html
__________________________________________________ _______

1. Yes

2. I probably would have carried out the sentence myself if that had been my daughter (child).

[Back]

Is this a trick question? Of course! Even if Jessica was a dolphin.

[Bobmuhthol]

I say no, because I can never justify the death penalty in a district court case.

[Jorddyn]

Does he deserve to die? Probably.

Could I be the one to "pull the trigger"? Probably not.

Jorddyn

[DCSL]

i vote for death

[Skirmisher]

He needs to be put down.

[Davenshire]

No, no death penalty-

He should be thrown in a pit with 2 starving death row inmates, both armed with dull rusty spoons.

[Skeeter]

I'm fine with the death penalty

[Apathy]

Death penalty costs too much money. Send to prison, no chance of parole; problem will fix itself in there anyways.

[Sean of the Thread]

There are something like 385 people on death row in Florida. Estimates put him in line at almost 200 years or so before it's his turn in the chair.

Give the child killer killer life and let him enjoy intestinal bleeding for the next 60 years. I will say the father has more restraint than me by far.

[Methais]

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

[Bobmuhthol]

DIE
I disagree with your beliefs.

[Brattt8525]

I think the fair and just thing to do would be to let him die the same way the child did.

[Bartlett]

While the cost and time it takes to carry out a death penalty are both way too high, some folks need it. John Evander Couey is one.

[Alfster]

Send him to canada

[Drinin]

Let his fellow inmates have him. Prisoners love child-rapists. I'd love for whatever time he has left to be . . . bad.

[Parkbandit]

Does he deserve to die? Probably.

Could I be the one to "pull the trigger"? Probably not.

Jorddyn

Does he deserve to die? Absolutely. He went into a house, took a kid, sexually molested her and then stuffed her into a plastic bag and let her die a slow death. This fucker needs to have the same type of death.. slow and painful.

Could I be the one to "pull the trigger"? ABSOLUTELY! I would kill this fucker and sleep like a baby that night.

[Parkbandit]

I will say the father has more restraint than me by far.

Yea.. that guy has shown remarkable restraint... and man, what a scary looking mother fucker. If he jumped over the rail and choked the ever loving shit out of this bastard... people would be like "Yea.. thought he would do that"

[sst]

It does not really matter if he gets death or not. He will most likely recive swift prison justice. If there is one thing about Cons that I like, its how they treat people like him.

[TheEschaton]

Could I be the one to "pull the trigger"? ABSOLUTELY! I would kill this fucker and sleep like a baby that night.

I think you seriously need to get some therapy if you'd willingly kill someone in some situation other than self defense. Have you ever killed anyone or watched someone die? Unless you're a cold-blooded psychopath, it affects you.

-TheE-

[Ilvane]

I'm torn on this one. I am not a proponent of the death penalty in most cases, but this guy was a monster, and a repeat molester of children.

So, yeah. I think he should get the death penalty.

Angela

[Gan]

He needs to be put down.

Like a rabid dog.

[Gan]

I say no, because I can never justify the death penalty in a district court case.

Is this because there's hope of a loophole for him to evade conviction if appealed? Or was it the forensic evidence found on his mattress (her blood/his semen) thats got you worried? Notice I'm not even mentioning his confession or the fact that he led them to the burial site...

Seriously, how can you not support the death penalty in this instance?

[Parkbandit]

I think you seriously need to get some therapy if you'd willingly kill someone in some situation other than self defense. Have you ever killed anyone or watched someone die? Unless you're a cold-blooded psychopath, it affects you.

-TheE-

Bullshit.

This guy has a LONG history of crime, including preying on innocent children. This fucker took a child from her bedroom.. took her to his residence and raped her. When he was done with this innocent child, he put her in some plastic bags and threw her out like trash.

I could easily aim straight between his eyes and pull the trigger... with no remorse or regret. I would sleep comfortably knowing I put this piece of human trash out by the curb.

If that makes me a psychopath.. so be it.

[TheEschaton]

Seriously, I'm calling the fucking guys with the white coats. ;)

A lack of respect for human life - no matter how corrupted that human life is - is a fundamental lack of morality.
Edited to add: and therefore puts you on the same level as this guy.

-TheE-

[Nieninque]

I hate the death sentence. I really do.
However, I hate the way that our judicial system deals with people like this.

He would get life here, have a shitty time in Prison, but be OK. He would get out of prison in 14 years or so and we would have to hope/trust/pray that he was rehabilitated enough to not do it again...which is a bit much to have to risk.

SO...while I hate the death sentence, people like this make me question that hard.

[Sean of the Thread]

BS. I say bring back the firing squad. This country needs to take a hard line on sexual predators*.

*unless you're a hot female teacher in your twenties having sex with my 16 year old son. Then it's high five time.

[Nieninque]

Seriously, I'm calling the fucking guys with the white coats. ;)

A lack of respect for human life - no matter how corrupted that human life is - is a fundamental lack of morality.
Edited to add: and therefore puts you on the same level as this guy.

-TheE-

I could kill someone who did this to someone I knew, loved, was related to, or probably didnt know at all.

It's not a lack or morality, it's different morality to your own.

You are sounding like a Christian now.

[Gan]

Seriously, I'm calling the fucking guys with the white coats. ;)

A lack of respect for human life - no matter how corrupted that human life is - is a fundamental lack of morality.
Edited to add: and therefore puts you on the same level as this guy.

-TheE-

But you see, thats an interesting juxtaposition you're getting yourself into.

Survival of the species dictates that predators are removed as a threat. Consider this with issues of crime as well as war between two countries. If everyone but the criminals were to abide by your theory of morality how would that theory survive its first or second meeting with a criminal bent upon your destruction?

Fight or flight? Pretty soon, without the removal of criminals such as this, there will not be anyplace safe to run to. What then?

Incarceration?
Jails can be escaped from. Politics can provide for early release of these types back into society... and so on, and so on.

Criminal reformation?
Please. I worked in a prison for 6.5 years; as noble as this idea is, it doesnt work except for cases of 1 out of 1,000. Currently, with today's prisoner's rights, the only thing jail is good for is a clearing house for criminals to get together to learn best practices and network. Its a clearing house for refinement, not reformation.

So calling someone who is not timid nor afraid of putting a predator such as this out of his/her/our misery immoral or sociopathic is inaccurate at best, slander at worst. Someone has to step up and say "This type of behavior is unacceptable for us as a species to survive". I'm glad there are others out there willing to be the one to step forward instead of running the other way.

[Sean of the Thread]

I could kill someone who did this to someone I knew, loved, was related to, or probably didnt know at all.

Absolutely. I would be a few hundred yards away from the courthouse with my untraceable gunshow purchased winchester model 70. Thank you 2nd amendment.

[Parkbandit]

Seriously, I'm calling the fucking guys with the white coats. ;)

A lack of respect for human life - no matter how corrupted that human life is - is a fundamental lack of morality.
Edited to add: and therefore puts you on the same level as this guy.

-TheE-

Who's morality? Yours? No thanks. I don't do jellyfish too well.

So Mr. Morals... how would you deal with this guy? I know.. you would let someone else deal with him since you have neither the spine, nor the inclination to be bothered with him. He didn't bother you.. he didn't kill your kid... so it's not your problem.

Or would you do the 'moral' thing and stuff him away in prison and try to rehabilitate him?

You are far from a realist.. as you live in your fantasy world most of the time.. thinking people like this can be 'corrected' and allowed back into mainstream society. And people wonder why he has such a huge rap sheet.

It is people like you that has made this country a cesspool of litigious individuals that do not have to take any personal responsibilities for their actions.

No wonder you chose to be a lawyer.

[Sean of the Thread]

So Mr. Morals... how would you deal with this guy?


Put sugar in gas tank duh.

[TheEschaton]

He would get life here, have a shitty time in Prison, but be OK. He would get out of prison in 14 years or so and we would have to hope/trust/pray that he was rehabilitated enough to not do it again...which is a bit much to have to risk.

This is why we have different laws here. This guy, if the death penalty was taken off the table, would probably get two consecutive life sentences, one for the rape, one for the murder, without possibility of parole. Our life sentences usually run on the order of 99 years. I was shocked the other day to hear from a Canadian friend of mine the other day that a "life" sentence in Canada was only 25 years - it sounds like it's similar in England, and that I would have a problem with. I'd be fine with him being locked up in jail forever plus a day.

Secondly, all death penalty advocates seem to always bring up the "Jail? You can ESCAPE FROM JAIL OMG!!!!!111" argument. I'm sorry, a federal maximum security prison? How often do people escape from that? I'd love to see some statistics. I just don't see how security issues at our prisons can be a valid support for instead killing people.

As PB mentioned, this relates to basic survival. I think my life-without-parole example more than adequately removes a person from the population. It is a fight response, rather than a flight response. I'm not a fucking flower child saying let's just kiss and make up - I just don't think "eye for an eye" is a responsible or moral thing to ascertain to. I don't think I'd even necessarily try and rehabilitate him. I'd just let him sit in a black box for the rest of his natural life. Let him stew on it.

Nien - I am Christian. So I will sound Christian in my beliefs. If you remove all belief structures from the equation, and just go by our animal instincts, then, yes, it is "easier" to kill him. However, I'd like to think that we (as a species) strive for something more than just animal morality - might is right, you take mine, I'm gonna take yours.

And PB, I resent your comments - I take more personal responsibility for my life than I need to. I also try to take personal responsibility for other people's lives - including the lives of people who haven't been responsible themselves. As for being "responsible for the lives of the victim's family", killing this guy doesn't bring their daughter back. And counseling and support has always proven more effective in finding closure than killing the guy who did it. I try to think of what is good for everyone as a whole. You seem to be stuck solely on thinking about yourself.

-TheE-

[Gan]

This is why we have different laws here. This guy, if the death penalty was taken off the table, would probably get two consecutive life sentences, one for the rape, one for the murder, without possibility of parole. Our life sentences usually run on the order of 99 years. I was shocked the other day to hear from a Canadian friend of mine the other day that a "life" sentence in Canada was only 25 years - it sounds like it's similar in England, and that I would have a problem with. I'd be fine with him being locked up in jail forever plus a day.
I'm glad you can afford the resources (space, revenue, etc.) to ensure that everyone sentenced to jail gets there, and stays there.



Secondly, all death penalty advocates seem to always bring up the "Jail? You can ESCAPE FROM JAIL OMG!!!!!111" argument. I'm sorry, a federal maximum security prison? How often do people escape from that? I'd love to see some statistics. I just don't see how security issues at our prisons can be a valid support for instead killing people.
Newsflash, this guy will be doing state time, in a state institution. From which people do escape from. But more importantly, and more frequently, politicians seem to influence the justice system at a greater frequency resulting in 'revolving doors' of state prison systems due to overcrowding, budgetary, and a myriad of other issues (including infringement of prisoner's rights). So, please give credit where credit is due and spread some of the mantra of death penalty advocates over to the politicians...



As PB mentioned, this relates to basic survival. I think my life-without-parole example more than adequately removes a person from the population. It is a fight response, rather than a flight response. I'm not a fucking flower child saying let's just kiss and make up - I just don't think "eye for an eye" is a responsible or moral thing to ascertain to. I don't think I'd even necessarily try and rehabilitate him. I'd just let him sit in a black box for the rest of his natural life. Let him stew on it.
Again, life without parole is only as concrete as the politicians who enforce it. I know many lifers that are now out walking the streets here in Texas because of liberal application of sentence guidelines when the state is faced with budgetary and political pressure to keep the prisons from overcrowding.



Nien - I am Christian. So I will sound Christian in my beliefs. If you remove all belief structures from the equation, and just go by our animal instincts, then, yes, it is "easier" to kill him. However, I'd like to think that we (as a species) strive for something more than just animal morality - might is right, you take mine, I'm gonna take yours.
Which came first, us as a species or Christianity? I'm betting on survivability than divine intervention when it comes down to being a choice between life and death. Especially with free will and all of that. ;) (you have to be alive in order to believe)

[TheEschaton]

Evolution, Gan, it's all about us evolving into something better equipped to survive. The new evolution is a mental one. ;)

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Evolution, Gan, it's all about us evolving into something better equipped to survive. The new evolution is a mental one. ;)

-TheE-

riiiggght

[Gan]

For the mind to evolve, the body has to survive. ;)

[DeV]

No wonder you chose to be a lawyer.
As have I. However, I fully support this child murderer's impending death on the grounds that exacting retributive justice is the punishment which has been determined to be a fair and accurate judgement by his peers. It's the ultimate punishment for a crime against one of the most vulnerable member's of our society.

Capital punishment is not without it's flaws, but in this instance the evidence appears to be simply overwhelming. DNA testing has effectively eliminated any uncertainty as to this man's innocence.

[TheEschaton]

As have I. However, I fully support this child murderer's impending death on the grounds that exacting retributive justice is the punishment which has been determined to be a fair and accurate judgement by his peers. It's the ultimate punishment for a crime against one of the most vulnerable member's of our society.

I don't think it's necessarily true that our system supports a harm- or culpability-based retributivist outlook at all. Look at our drug laws, which couldn't be seen as retributivist at all, but consequentialist at best.

-TheE-

[DeV]

I don't think it's necessarily true that our system supports a harm- or culpability-based retributivist outlook at all. Look at our drug laws, which couldn't be seen as retributivist at all, but consequentialist at best.

-TheE-Certainly not on all accounts in matters of crime against the state or humanity. I've taken somewhat of a simplistic approach to this. He's been judged fairly by his peers within the bounds of the law. So whether or not our system supports a retributivist outlook, 10 of his peers believe he's earned the right to die for his crimes and I happen to agree with their decision. This particular phase of crime and especially punishment our judicial system does fully support.

[Back]

Evolution, Gan, it's all about us evolving into something better equipped to survive. The new evolution is a mental one. ;)

-TheE-

I’m with you on this, but this guy was not evolving. In fact, he was found to be an obstacle to our evolving. I’m not suggesting we start culling the population but as things stand right now, the way our judicial system works, he is not a loss in the big picture.

[Miss X]

I fully support putting child rapists/sex offenders on an island and setting fire to it.

I'm generally against the death penalty as a concept, but cases like this definitely make you question your opinions. The only issue I have, is that it's probably easier on him to die than it would be to spend the rest of his life in jail, rotting away.

[Alfster]

I'm generally against the death penalty as a concept, but cases like this definitely make you question your opinions. The only issue I have, is that it's probably easier on him to die than it would be to spend the rest of his life in jail, rotting away.
Might be easier on him, however...it's far cheaper on our pockets to plug him than to have him sit in jail.

I'm cheap. What can I say.

[Gan]

Might be easier on him, however...it's far cheaper on our pockets to plug him than to have him sit in jail.

I'm cheap. What can I say.

We could just bill his family for the bullet. ;)

[Parkbandit]

And PB, I resent your comments -
-TheE-

My god, I had no idea you felt that way. My deepest apologies for such an outlandish remark on my behalf. I am sorry.


Seriously, I'm calling the fucking guys with the white coats. ;)

A lack of respect for human life - no matter how corrupted that human life is - is a fundamental lack of morality.
Edited to add: and therefore puts you on the same level as this guy.

-TheE-

Oh wait.. fuck you.

[Nieninque]

Nien - I am Christian. So I will sound Christian in my beliefs.

You start shoving your morals down my throat as a reason why we shouldnt do something or why we should do something, I stop hearing what you are saying. I have morals. Pretty fucking strong morals. They are just different from yours in some respect. The moral argument is always a weak one.


If you remove all belief structures from the equation, and just go by our animal instincts, then, yes, it is "easier" to kill him. However, I'd like to think that we (as a species) strive for something more than just animal morality - might is right, you take mine, I'm gonna take yours.

I dont see it as "might is right". Fucking hell, if you read any posts of mine in any serious thread, you would see that I am fairly anti-authoritarian in most respects. HOWEVER...the thing for me is, in the UK, he would be out to do his stuff again in 14 years. There is no way in the world that people like that CAN be rehabilitated and the clinging to hopes that he has changed hinges upon risking the lives or welfare of other children. I dont see why we should gamble the wellbeing of children over the freedom of someone who has pretty much forfeited any rights he ever had.

I know he isnt in the UK and in the US you have the opportunity to bang him up until he dies, but who foots the bill for that? How much does it cost to keep a sick fuck like this alive and safe in prison for the rest of his miserable existence? And wouldnt that money be better spent on schools, supporting victims and other more deserving cases?

Which brings us back to the point of the death penalty. As much as I hate the death penalty and the idea of the death penalty, there are some people who even the most anti-death-penalty people see as possibly being an exception to the rule.

killing this guy doesn't bring their daughter back.

Absolutely. But it makes sure no other people's daughters join her.

[Gan]

You start shoving your morals down my throat as a reason why we shouldnt do something or why we should do something, I stop hearing what you are saying. I have morals. Pretty fucking strong morals. They are just different from yours in some respect. The moral argument is always a weak one.



I dont see it as "might is right". Fucking hell, if you read any posts of mine in any serious thread, you would see that I am fairly anti-authoritarian in most respects. HOWEVER...the thing for me is, in the UK, he would be out to do his stuff again in 14 years. There is no way in the world that people like that CAN be rehabilitated and the clinging to hopes that he has changed hinges upon risking the lives or welfare of other children. I dont see why we should gamble the wellbeing of children over the freedom of someone who has pretty much forfeited any rights he ever had.

I know he isnt in the UK and in the US you have the opportunity to bang him up until he dies, but who foots the bill for that? How much does it cost to keep a sick fuck like this alive and safe in prison for the rest of his miserable existence? And wouldnt that money be better spent on schools, supporting victims and other more deserving cases?

Which brings us back to the point of the death penalty. As much as I hate the death penalty and the idea of the death penalty, there are some people who even the most anti-death-penalty people see as possibly being an exception to the rule.


Absolutely. But it makes sure no other people's daughters join her.

:clap:

[Skirmisher]

I think you seriously need to get some therapy if you'd willingly kill someone in some situation other than self defense. Have you ever killed anyone or watched someone die? Unless you're a cold-blooded psychopath, it affects you.

-TheE-

If anyone harmed one of my nieces or nephews, I'd be second in line to throw the switch standing only behind their parents.

That being said, I reject any such classification of myself as cold blooded.

And as far as affecting me, I would already have been traumatized by the attack on my family member, this removing of a diseased animal masquerading as a human would if anything bring perhaps some degree of closure for me.

[Stanley Burrell]

Wasn't that O.J. guy found guilty of murder in civil court too?

Anyway:


While the cost and time it takes to carry out a death penalty are both way too high, some folks need it. John Evander Couey is one.

I think the idea behind publicizing such cases should be aimed at groups whereas instances can be "logically" proccessed through the minds of typical criminals.

I hate to say it, but how many fucks like this are going to be dissuaded by such publicity? (I agree with the death penalty, but in no way with an extended learn-a-lesson directed at this caliber of monster via media hype.)

I think that criminal pathology has taught us a lesson in that death sentences can and will cross over the realm of repulsion to a birds-of-a-feather analogy whereas the ASPD psychosexual serial predators are concerned.

I am certain that this man, unfortunately, implored these brutal crimes by a sick sort of "getting off" by these exact news instance publications.

The only thing evidence in broad daylight against these individuals will do is fuel further food-for-distorted-thought in other fucked up members of society. You cannot teach the psychopath a lesson. They know they're right.

[Stanley Burrell]

He would get life here, have a shitty time in Prison, but be OK. He would get out of prison in 14 years or so and we would have to hope/trust/pray that he was rehabilitated enough to not do it again...which is a bit much to have to risk.

Not to go too far off-tangent, but that's really profound.

One thing I've always found interesting is that in the U.S., the highest instance of crime rate concurs with states like Virginia where executions are (in bleak contrast) habit.

This brings me back to the gun discussion and a lot of its offshoots. And I really, really, really want to go there. But won't.

I guess I can put it as: My being somewhat aghast at said rehabilitation o'er there when compared to this brand of criminal o'er here is what makes me believe why England will continue a "healthy" criminal cycle, whereas here there will be a self-feeding system.

It goes way beyond these last paragraphs. And I a-scared to veer :offtopic:

[Latrinsorm]

I could kill someone who did this to someone I knew, loved, was related to, or probably didnt know at all.The point was that PB claims he would kill the guy and not be bothered by it at all. If history can teach us anything, it's that dehumanizing people always leads to a bad place.
How much does it cost to keep a sick fuck like this alive and safe in prison for the rest of his miserable existence?Less than it costs for a legal execution.
But it makes sure no other people's daughters join her.At his hands. How about at any other child molester's hands?
Survival of the species dictates that predators are removed as a threat.If we want to maximize survival of the species, we're obligated to figure out what makes this guy tick in order to ensure no one like him does the same thing again. Can't do that if he's dead.
However, I fully support this child murderer's impending death on the grounds that exacting retributive justice is the punishment which has been determined to be a fair and accurate judgement by his peers. It's the ultimate punishment for a crime against one of the most vulnerable member's of our society.The problem with reactive justice is that by definition you have to wait around for the crime to occur. Personally, I'd rather not wait around for another child molester to act, and I'd hazard a guess that you feel the same way.
He's been judged fairly by his peers within the bounds of the law.I'm sure you of all people don't need to be reminded of the times in the past that the "fair judgment" of the law has been less than appropriate.

[CrystalTears]

Less than it costs for a legal execution.
Are you sure about that?

At his hands. How about at any other child molester's hands? I'm not pro-death penalty. At all. However I will say fucks like this make me question even my view on the matter. One less child molester is one less person to hurt another child. Simple as that.

If we want to maximize survival of the species, we're obligated to figure out what makes this guy tick in order to ensure no one like him does the same thing again. Can't do that if he's dead. Do you have to make the example out of someone who has a long history of repeatedly doing these outlandish acts? Can't you find the guy who had one incident and work off that? Although frankly, if people feel the need to broadcast where sex offenders are living when they are "rehabilitated", then they essentially are not, so either leave them in jail or get rid of them. Either they gain freedom or they don't.

The problem with reactive justice is that by definition you have to wait around for the crime to occur. Personally, I'd rather not wait around for another child molester to act, and I'd hazard a guess that you feel the same way. Okay Mr. Pre-Cog, how do you plan on stopping crime before it happens?

[Nieninque]

The point was that PB claims he would kill the guy and not be bothered by it at all. If history can teach us anything, it's that dehumanizing people always leads to a bad place.

Dehumanising someone who has already acted in a pretty depraved way and stolen the life of someone so vulnerable is fairly easy to do. Once you have raped and killed a child, you have dehumanised yourself.


Less than it costs for a legal execution.

Figures please...and sources.

None of that whole "go look it up somewhere" please. If you are so sure it is cheaper to lock someone up in prison for 60 years than it is to inject them with some rat poison or whatever it is you do, please show me the figures and explain how you found them.


At his hands. How about at any other child molester's hands?

How about them? Anyone that offends against children doesnt deserve to live.


If we want to maximize survival of the species, we're obligated to figure out what makes this guy tick in order to ensure no one like him does the same thing again. Can't do that if he's dead.

You're a fucking idiot. we know what makes him tick. There are a ton of studies about paedophiles. We dont need to keep them around in the hope that they will tell us the secret to their depraved little world.


The problem with reactive justice is that by definition you have to wait around for the crime to occur. Personally, I'd rather not wait around for another child molester to act, and I'd hazard a guess that you feel the same way.I'm sure you of all people don't need to be reminded of the times in the past that the "fair judgment" of the law has been less than appropriate.

And the problem with your blinkered way of thinking is that you seem to believe there is a way of determining paedophiles and child abusers/killers before the event. Most of the time there isnt. The times where we should have known are the ones when they have already committed offences that should be ringing huge alarm bells, but due to fuck ups in the judicial system they have been free to go out and offend again.

Which brings us back to 'how much trust do we put in - "I've changed, Guv. Honest!'"?

[Stanley Burrell]

Okay Mr. Pre-Cog, how do you plan on stopping crime before it happens?

By the notion he and I mentioned, a bit differently maybe, involving reactive justice not being effective.

I think it's better as heresay than overlooked in its entirety :shrug:

[zhelas]

A lack of respect for human life -TheE-

This is the fundamental problem with your argument. You are calling this guy a human. John Evander Couey is not a human being at all! John Evander Couey is the very embodiment of evil that torchures and kills children because it likes it!

Oh wait let rehabilitate it. Lets put it back into society. Lets give it a second chance. Let understand its feelings. I am sorry but you can have John Evander Couey live near you and your family.

Convicted child predators and pediphiles deserve the harshest laws possible and if this means the death penalty so be it.

If John Evander Couey did that to a member of my family I would not hesitate to kill it. I would sleep well at night.

Support Jessica's Law
http://www.83yes.com/fact_sheet.pdf

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm not too sure about costs of an execution. I'm not exactly sure how a prison under scrutiny of the some of the most extensive closewatching you'll fine could start letting things slide when meeting food/clothes/medicine prisoner criteria. There's an interesting article in the Times about this conunundrum regarding a recent Hep C prison epidemic. Er, yeah.

I've always found it kinda odd that an extremely experienced and licenced doctor of medicine is needed to administer a lethal injection -- I don't know what the cost tally would be of that, or whether public records would overtly host such stats because of their political implications.

Maybe?

[Latrinsorm]

Are you sure about that?Technically I'm only sure about NJ, CA, and WA. Given that NJ doesn't even execute anyone, it stands to reason a state that's executed dozens of people (FL) would have spent more money on it.
One less child molester is one less person to hurt another child. Simple as that.One less child molester is one less data point. The longer we take to figure out why this happens, the more kids will suffer. Simple as that.
Do you have to make the example out of someone who has a long history of repeatedly doing these outlandish acts? Can't you find the guy who had one incident and work off that?The point isn't that we're going to pick this guy out and let all the other child molesters just hang out. The point is we should examine all of them.
Okay Mr. Pre-Cog, how do you plan on stopping crime before it happens?Pre-rehabilitation. We'll certainly put some people through it who wouldn't have molested children anyway, but if we're really serious about preventing child abuse then that's something we have to accept. Besides which, we already have an imperfect system in place that punishes people, so we're already granting that some people convicted of child molestation aren't actually child molesters and vice versa.

For those people who think killing this guy will be a fruitful endeavor, how many child molesters do you think there are? 4,300 were released in 1994 alone. It's disingenuous at best to say that the only way to prevent this particular child molester from committing the same crime again is to kill him, and given the scope of the problem, it's outrageous to pass up on the chance to strike the problem at the root.

[DeV]

we're obligated to figure out what makes this guy tick in order to ensure no one like him does the same thing again. This is entirely unrealistic. Yet, we do so anyway, and guess what, it doesn't stop it from happeneing. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that though as you appear to be arguing for arguments sake. We're obligated to honor the law and follow through with the punishment of ones crimes.


Can't do that if he's dead. We as a society do not live in a vaccum. Psychologists and researchers have documented murderers of the worst kind for decades and oddly enough there are still sick fucks that murder, torture, rape, and molest despite documented studies providing insight on why such crimes occur. Knowing why someone is a fucking idiot will not stop that person from being a fucking idiot.
The problem with reactive justice is that by definition you have to wait around for the crime to occur. The other problem is that if people stopped committing crimes there'd be no need for reactive justice. Hence, sitting around and trying to figure out what makes people like this tick does not sway another person from not committing a similar crime as history has shown time and again.

Personally, I'd rather not wait around for another child molester to act No one would. Personally, I'd like to know what you think could have prevented this from occuring in the first place with all the documented research already at your disposal.

I'm sure you of all people don't need to be reminded of the times in the past that the "fair judgment" of the law has been less than appropriate.I'm sure you of all people don't need to be reminded of the times in the past that the fair judgement of the law has been less than appropriate because acts of child molestation were hidden, swept under the rug, and by such action even more acts perpetrated upon innocent childen in an environment where they were supposed to feel safe and protected by those representing a power higher than man.

I believe his judgement to be fair. If you don't, that's your problem, not mine.

[Nieninque]

Pre-rehabilitation.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



We'll certainly put some people through it who wouldn't have molested children anyway,


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[CrystalTears]

It's disingenuous at best to say that the only way to prevent this particular child molester from committing the same crime again is to kill him, and given the scope of the problem, it's outrageous to pass up on the chance to strike the problem at the root.
For me, it's not just that he molested a child, it's that he killed her and threw her out with the trash. It was the inhumane way in which he treated her, admitted to it, and doesn't seem to really show remorse for it. Is there really a reason to keep this type of person breathing and living when he himself cares so little for life?

If you want to rehabilitate the other 4,299 molesters out there, be my guest. You seem to have more faith in these people than the researchers and doctors out there who basically feel that there is no "cure" for this. So let's let them keep on hurting kids while we study them like animals. Seriously, you've reached the HOLY SHIT WTF moment of the day.

[DeV]

It's disingenuous at best to say that the only way to prevent this particular child molester from committing the same crime again is to kill him, and given the scope of the problem, it's outrageous to pass up on the chance to strike the problem at the root.We don't punish child molesters with death just yet. It is quite possible that rehabilitation act as a viable option if only that were the sole crime he was found guilty of committing.

[TheEschaton]

The financial costs of the death penalty (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#financial%20facts)

Take the site as you will. It seems to compile lots of news sources and independent studies (?) on financial costs of the death penalty and life imprisonment.

Tidbits:
In Washington state:
At the trial level, death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 inadditional costs to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.

On direct appeal, the cost of appellate defense averages $100,000 more in death penalty cases, than in non-death penalty murder cases.

Personal restraint petitions filed in death penalty cases on average cost an additional$137,000 in public defense costs.

in NJ:
A New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death. The study examined the costs of death penalty cases to prosecutor offices, public defender offices, courts, and correctional facilities. The report's authors said that the cost estimate is "very conservative" because other significant costs uniquely associated with the death penalty were not available.

NY:
NY - The estimated costs for New York’s death penalty, which was reinstated in 1995: $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death, with no executions likely for many years. (The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)

-TheE-

[zhelas]

For those who think that Jessica's law is to strict. And that we should study them to find out why they do what they do. Here are some examples of that handy work.


Josh Maciorski, 18 years old, was convicted in a Rhode Island court room of having sex with a 13-year-old girl. The teen was put on probation in lieu of jail time, and went on to molest a 14-year-old girl two years later, for which he served one year in jail. Once out, the 20-something-year-old went on to rape a 16-year-old. After his third strike, he received only a three-year jail sentence.http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2005/10/13/Opinion/Viewpoint-1432123.shtml


-In Missouri, 19-year old Darrell Jackson pleaded guilty to repeatedly sexually abusing a little girl, beginning when she was just eight. When Jackson came up for sentencing, the judge gave him four months in prison and five years probation.
-In Minnesota, Joseph Duncan stood in front of a judge, accused of molesting a young boy. Despite the fact that Duncan had previously served 16 years for raping another young boy at gunpoint, the judge released him on just $15,000 bail. Duncan promptly skipped bail and headed for Idaho, where he allegedly kidnapped, raped, and killed a 9-year old boy, molested his sister, and killed their family.
-Most recently in Vermont Judge Edward Cashman presided over a trial in which 34-year old Mark Hulett confessed to raping a little girl from the time she was six until she was 10 years old. After pleading guilty to the charges and admitting that he also let his friend rape her, Judge Cashman sentenced this guy to just 60 days in jail! http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/j-lawforillinois/

Yup I totally agree that these predators are human beings and deserve sympathy.

Currently ID, VT, UT, CO, IL, VT, MA, NJ, HI, and MD are the states that have Lenient laws with child predators.

[Tolwynn]

One less child molester is one less data point. The longer we take to figure out why this happens, the more kids will suffer. Simple as that.

Using that sort of choplogic would suggest that more molesters would be an even better thing, as you could then have even more precious data points. If you have kids of your own, perhaps you can offer them up to further this valuable data-gathering.

Just wtf.

[DeV]

Seriously, you've reached the HOLY SHIT WTF moment of the day.Word.

Child molesters love discussing the reasons why they molest children. There is nothing more disgustingly sickening than group therapy with convicted child molesters.

[zhelas]

What about the money that is spent on the kids who survive these most heinous acts? I am sure they will forget being raped and abused.

Oh my child was a victim of a child predator? I must learn to sympathize with that monster who only gets 60 days of jail time!

:WTF:

[zhelas]

Those who sympathize with child predators are just as monstrous. Sorry there is no excuse to let this evil back into society.

[Warriorbird]

Kill him.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm equally sorry, because there is no way to justify giving man the approval to decide the fate of other men.

[Latrinsorm]

Once you have raped and killed a child, you have dehumanised yourself.I'm sorry, because I can't figure out how to help you with this problem. I can only hope that someday you recognize what a dangerous position you're putting yourself in.
we know what makes him tick.Oh, so you're saying that "there is a way of determining paedophiles and child abusers/killers before the event."? You seem to be saying that "Most of the time there isnt.", and that's unacceptable.
Which brings us back to 'how much trust do we put in - "I've changed, Guv. Honest!'"?Apparently you think I'm in favor of early release. This is an odd conclusion to draw, but I guess it's just me being the sort of inferior intellect that would resort to name-calling.
If you are so sure it is cheaper to lock someone up in prison for 60 years than it is to inject them with some rat poison or whatever it is you do, please show me the figures and explain how you found them.I guess that was a rhetorical question, then:
The Washington State Bar Association:
http://www.wsba.org/lawyers/groups/finalreport.pdf
Some hippies:
http://www.njadp.org/forms/cost/MoneyforNothingNovember18.html
The Sacramento Bee:
http://www.sacbee.com/static/live/search/index.html
I can't directly link to the article, but just put in "1988" and "closing death row".
Psychologists and researchers have documented murderers of the worst kind for decades and oddly enough there are still sick fucks that murder, torture, rape, and molest despite documented studies providing insight on why such crimes occur.Are you seriously ready to give up after a few decades?
This is entirely unrealistic.So is potential tunneling. Luckily, the universe does not feel the need to conform to our ideas of what is "realistic".
Personally, I'd like to know what you think could have prevented this from occuring in the first place with all the documented research already at your disposal.Just because we know a lot doesn't mean we know enough. I'd say this is an obvious case of the not-enoughs.
You seem to have more faith in these people than the researchers and doctors out there who basically feel that there is no "cure" for this.The history of science is a history of being wrong interspersed with a few insights. When we're talking about children being molested, how can we ever stop trying to figure out how to predict it? I suppose we could just laugh a lot, but that strikes me as awfully inconsiderate to the children and their parents.
Using that sort of choplogic would suggest that more molesters would be an even better thing, as you could then have even more precious data points. If you have kids of your own, perhaps you can offer them up to further this valuable data-gathering.The crucial failure of reactive justice is that it can't change the past, no matter how draconian or vicious we make it. Given that we have some child molesters already that we can nonlethally prevent from molesting again, it's silly to throw away potential data. I'm glad I could clear that up for you. :)

[Gan]

I'm equally sorry, because there is no way to justify giving man the approval to decide the fate of other men.

Its called free will.

Not to mention that the molester did not ask approval before he took the life of the child...

[zhelas]

For all who sympathize with the monster. Shame on you. Next time a victim of a child predator looks at you remember that.

"I am sorry that it hurt you over and over and over again. Just deal with it. That was your fate to be hurt by it. Especially since it had been convicted multiple times for the same crime. You must remember that the monster that hurt you is a human being and deserves our sympathy."

[Gan]

The crucial failure of reactive justice is that it can't change the past, no matter how draconian or vicious we make it. Given that we have some child molesters already that we can nonlethally prevent from molesting again, it's silly to throw away potential data. I'm glad I could clear that up for you. :)

But by sentencing them to death, you remove that specific threat from ever happening again. Meaning there's one less threat in existence.

And locking them up always leaves a chance for them to get out someday, for whatever reason. Someone coming back to life is not as much of a threat considering the alternative is it?

[Latrinsorm]

Does anyone know who Zhelas is talking to?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Its called free will.>>

The judicial system is fucking far from free will.

[Stanley Burrell]

We as a society do not live in a vaccum. Psychologists and researchers have documented murders of the worst kind for decades and dddly enough there are still sick fucks that murder despite documented studies providing insight on why such crimes occur.

Studies have been post mortum and administered via EEGs, usually with research prerogatives not reaching much further than a legal intent.

Society will not benefit from using a Phineas Gage model and calling it a day when deciphering the way in which to prevent certain species of criminal psychopaths from striking again.

Neither does premature execution.

Science is never meant to, ever, stop building upon data. If I were conducting a neurobiopsychological human study on radioactive iodides in a HIPA-cosigned criminal preventative study and began referencing just about any nomenclature in my hypothetical bibliography from earlier than the last five or six years, I'd be wasting my time looking for funding.

The same is even more true for non-cellular biology studies in psych.

I think a lot of folks feel their stance regarding executions and all its political tangents to be simply justified in: Well, since there's a system in place to execute serial killers, I'll use this as a crutch and cite any and all positive figures from happenstance via an age old system of execution. My crutch/premise/ideology/right/wrong is that citing science as being "good enough" is a nonsense statement. Execution is all-too-often a primitively hoarded commodity when spontaneously reached by its supporters as final -- There is not a whole lot of non-political science behind ending a human life; after all, you can only die once. There is right to revel in such a "final solution."

However, aside from execution, there are no final solutions. This is the foundation and truth of science, which should and can only expand its horizons at the speed in which hasty action can hopefully deteriorate so that more research can be conducted.

I would absolutely execute this sick-o. I concede execution as about the most adequate case closed and end of discussion that can be fathomed. I sure as heck wouldn't execute this crazy dude, or his analogues, before conducting in-the-moment research of his and many others' what-makes-them-tick studies: Amplified a billion times through a scientific filter and then applied, with greater and greater force by above mentioned research that has to build upon itself contemporarily in order to be proved effective.

If not, we can go about saying how inefficient it is and be wholly correct about such an assumption.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Next time a victim of a child predator looks at you remember that.>>

So like.. a child?

<<"I am sorry that it hurt you over and over and over again. Just deal with it. That was your fate to be hurt by it. Especially since it had been convicted multiple times for the same crime. You must remember that the monster that hurt you is a human being and deserves our sympathy.">>

You talk like a child. :(

[Gan]

<<Its called free will.>>

The judicial system is fucking far from free will.

You're right, thats actually called 'the will of the people'.

[Parkbandit]

I'm equally sorry, because there is no way to justify giving man the approval to decide the fate of other men.

He gave up all rights to his own life when he abducted a child, raped her and then shoved her in garbage bags.. killing her.

[CrystalTears]

The crucial failure of reactive justice is that it can't change the past, no matter how draconian or vicious we make it. Given that we have some child molesters already that we can nonlethally prevent from molesting again, it's silly to throw away potential data. I'm glad I could clear that up for you. :)
Really? How?

[TheEschaton]

OMFG, throw them in a dark, windowless room, and throw away the key. Don't give them privileges, toss in bread and water three times a day, and empty his piss bucket every day. It's not difficult.

Even if he could escape, which I still find unlikely UNTIL YOU GUYS GIVE ME PROOF, OMFG, DON'T TELL ME TO LOOK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!11, 3 months into solitary confinement he'd've lost the will to escape.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And you can never give up your human rights, PB. They are inalienable. IE, inherent to being a living, breathing person.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

The point was that PB claims he would kill the guy and not be bothered by it at all. If history can teach us anything, it's that dehumanizing people always leads to a bad place.

When you do what he's done to an innocent child.. you give up your right to be considered anything remotely close to being a human being. If there was any doubt about the crime and his guilt.. then maybe I would feel bad. But this happened in my backyard (Tampa area) and it's been covered by the news almost constantly since it happened. It could have easily been my child, taken from my house in the middle of the night.

I doubt very much that I would have the restraint that her father has shown. I would no doubt be in jail right now, awaiting my trial for murder.

[Parkbandit]

OMFG, throw them in a dark, windowless room, and throw away the key. Don't give them privileges, toss in bread and water three times a day, and empty his piss bucket every day. It's not difficult.

-TheE-

You are so immoral... you sicken me.

[CrystalTears]

OMFG, throw them in a dark, windowless room, and throw away the key. Don't give them privileges, toss in bread and water three times a day, and empty his piss bucket every day. It's not difficult.
And yet there are people who feel he shouldn't have it that good.

[DeV]

Are you seriously ready to give up after a few decades?Where in my post did I make any mention that humanity was ready to give up after a few decades?


So is potential tunneling. So is anything I can think of.
Luckily, the universe does not feel the need to conform to our ideas of what is "realistic".Not "our" ideas, namely just yours in this instance.

Just because we know a lot doesn't mean we know enough.And that is why studies continue to this day. We know more. This also doesn't address why these acts are still committed.

I'd say this is an obvious case of the not-enoughs. I'd say this man had free will and committed this act of that free will. It's obvious that despite you feeling that this crime could have been prevented, there is really nothing you or anyone else could have done to prevent it.

The history of science is a history of being wrong interspersed with a few insights. What does that have to do with why this man decided to rape and kill a little girl? History and science are certainly not to blame.


When we're talking about children being molested, how can we ever stop trying to figure out how to predict it? We can and do predict recidivism as well as the outcome of treatment. How do we ever start trying to figure out how to predict it? Just because 2 people have the same neurological triggers, doesn't mean they'll both have the same end result.
We wouldn't know if whatever system implemented worked unless those individuals tagged were allowed to committ those crimes. And if they do, you've essentially aided them thru non-prevention, yet if they don't you've essentially tagged a person as a potential criminal even though they've committed no such act. Where do you draw the line? What impact on their life would this have and at what point would you be willing to take responsibility for whatever the impact? The implications could and probably would be staggering.

[Stanley Burrell]

And you can never give up your human rights, PB. They are inalienable. IE, inherent to being a living, breathing person.

-TheE-

Out of morbid curiousity, councilman, can a physical state other than brain-dead be used to exclude any and all human rights? Could inalienable human rights be surpassed by other clauses?

I've always wondered about this one only having completed a single semester of Mickey Mouse crim 101 and reading about deliberate self-inflicted wounds by death row inmates to postpone executions/those who keep killing inmates so that due process has to delay/repeat itself to reach verdicts.

[Tolwynn]

And you can never give up your human rights, PB. They are inalienable. IE, inherent to being a living, breathing person.

Goodness knows those inalienable rights certainly stopped that little girl from being assaulted, raped, murdered, and discarded like so much trash.

That said, if life without parole could actually be given and enforced, then that would be good. But it isn't a possibility in all of the states, for one. In many states, consideration for parole on a life sentence is a possibility within 25 years, which does raise the spectre of these monsters being allowed to commit these atrocities again before being thrown back into prison. Worse yet, at times it's been a lot less in some states - take Texas, for example where at one point a life sentence meant an average of 6 years in jail.

But there is, of course, no parole once you're executed.

Fix the revolving-door penal system and suddenly a lot of the reasons for capital punishment evaporate. Until that point, however...

[Methais]

I think you seriously need to get some therapy if you'd willingly kill someone in some situation other than self defense. Have you ever killed anyone or watched someone die? Unless you're a cold-blooded psychopath, it affects you.

-TheE-

If that was your mother or your daughter or whatever that that happened to, I'm sure your point of view would be much different.

[Parkbandit]

If that was your mother or your daughter or whatever that that happened to, I'm sure your point of view would be much different.

Nothing bad like this would happen in his fantasy world though..

[Gan]

Really? How?

By cutting off their general and the two privates with a rusty hacksaw blade, then cutting off their hands and branding a big M on their face for everyone to see.

[Methais]

It kind of reminds me of that thread a while back where someone (forgot who) said something along the lines of "If someone's trying to kill me, what right do I have to take their life?"

Apples and oranges yeah, but it still reminds me of that thread.

[Gan]

OMFG, throw them in a dark, windowless room, and throw away the key. Don't give them privileges, toss in bread and water three times a day, and empty his piss bucket every day. It's not difficult.

Even if he could escape, which I still find unlikely UNTIL YOU GUYS GIVE ME PROOF, OMFG, DON'T TELL ME TO LOOK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!11, 3 months into solitary confinement he'd've lost the will to escape.

-TheE-

You are so clueless about prison, prisoner's rights (thank the liberals for that too) and what happens inside prison that its scary.

[Methais]

Put sugar in gas tank duh.

According to Mythbusters, that doesn't work. Bleach in the carburetor though....

[DeV]

If not, we can go about saying how inefficient it is and be wholly correct about such an assumption.Ciminal psychologists are a rare breed, but they carry out this task that others so easily talk about but often do nothing about on a daily basis. It is beyond me why people think this is not already done. It may not be on a grande scale, but it is most certainly a process that is carried out by the bravest of clinical and forensic psychologists, often in a prison like setting under circumstances that are often more dangerous than not. Therefore I completely agree that it is very necessary to know why, but there is no available science to prove that in doing so we prevent others from exacting a similar fate on their potential victims.

[Parkbandit]

It kind of reminds me of that thread a while back where someone (forgot who) said something along the lines of "If someone's trying to kill me, what right do I have to take their life?"

Apples and oranges yeah, but it still reminds me of that thread.

Same vein, IMO.

If someone fucks with me, you can guarantee a lethal response. Thankfully, I live in a non-liberal state where that's my inalienable right.

[Jorddyn]

Fix the revolving-door penal system and suddenly a lot of the reasons for capital punishment evaporate. Until that point, however...

Fix the long, onerous, drawn out, poorly executed (excuse the pun), unevenly applied capital punishment system, and a lot of reasons for being against capital punishment evaporate.

Jorddyn, just sayin'

[Gan]

It kind of reminds me of that thread a while back where someone (forgot who) said something along the lines of "If someone's trying to kill me, what right do I have to take their life?"

Apples and oranges yeah, but it still reminds me of that thread.


What about a basic human right to live?

If someone/something seeks to violate my right to live, am I justified in defending that right? I think so.

How far can I take that defense? Do I merely maintain a defensive posture and act singularly against each and every aggressor? Or does the act of seeking out the elimination of those who are seeking my elimination make me one in the same?

What if each and every aggressor is part of or acting in concert as a larger group? Can I interpret the aggressor to be the group instead of the individual aggressor?

These are the things I think of when looking at a solution to the type of terrorist threats we see in today's society.

Its not like we have a vaccination that will make society immune to the violence that the terrorists inflict randomly. Therefore, does society have the justification to seek out the eradication of said terrorists because of the violence they inflict? Because of the infringement of the right to live they enact?

Or do the terrorists have a basic right to seek out the elimination of others who are not part of their group?

My personal opinion is that we treat them like cancer, and just carve them out of society. But thats not very respectful of other's rights.

:medieval:

This was in the gun control thread back in October 06.

[Gan]

Fix the long, onerous, drawn out, poorly executed (excuse the pun), unevenly applied capital punishment system, and a lot of reasons for being against capital punishment evaporate.

Jorddyn, just sayin'


Still waiting for a better idea to come along.

Ganalon, just sayin what others are thinkin. ;)

[Methais]

It's probably been said already, but I'm pretty sure this guy will die a horrible death one way or another. If he goes to jail, he'll just get assraped to death by big negros named Abdul with 15 inch pricks.

[Tolwynn]

Fix the long, onerous, drawn out, poorly executed (excuse the pun), unevenly applied capital punishment system, and a lot of reasons for being against capital punishment evaporate.

Don't get me wrong, I support the use of capital punishment as well. But what do you think the real odds of this kind of overhaul happening are once you throw folks that support criminals' rights over that of their victims into the mix?

Getting life without parole fixed in the remaining states that don't use it seems a more likely possibility, and anything that would keep these monsters from returning to society is fine by me.

[Gan]

It's probably been said already, but I'm pretty sure this guy will die a horrible death one way or another. If he goes to jail, he'll just get assraped to death by big negros named Abdul with 15 inch pricks.

That depends on where they put him. The way criminals are classified and housed nowdays means he'll be put in a facility with like minded/aged/offense types for the most part. The concept behind that is that being in prison is the punishment, not what happens inside.

In the Texas penal system, our first two directives were to maintain the safety and security of the institution. And to maintain the safety and security of the offenders incarcerated within.

Keep in mind I can only give a perspective of Texas prisons. We did not operate like HBO's OZ or other state institutions. A good day for a guard was being able to walk out the same gate you walked in through on your way to work, with all body parts attached.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If that was your mother or your daughter or whatever that that happened to, I'm sure your point of view would be much different.>>

Justice isn't about personal revenge, thank God.

[Parkbandit]

<<If that was your mother or your daughter or whatever that that happened to, I'm sure your point of view would be much different.>>

Justice isn't about personal revenge, thank God.

If you were taken Bob.. and molested.. then thrust in a garbage bag and suffocated.. I would feel the same way about your abductor.

[Stanley Burrell]

Ciminal psychologists are a rare breed, but they carry out this task that others so easily talk about but often do nothing about on a daily basis. It is beyond me why people think this is not already done. It may not be on a grande scale, but it is most certainly a process that is carried out by the bravest of clinical and forensic psychologists, often in a prison like setting under circumstances that are often more dangerous than not. Therefore I completely agree that it is very necessary to know why, but there is no available science to prove that in doing so we prevent others from exacting a similar fate on their potential victims.

The last twenty three words of your paragraph pretty much explain most of what I've commented on up to this point and why I view it as being problematic. To which party that card shall be pulled in favor of is anyone's guess.

Lemme just briefly mention my having dinner with the head of homicide investigations in a certain Connecticut district a couple weeks ago. His and my notion were that it's entirely inappropriate for a forensic pathologist to have to take on the roll of assuming a degree in criminal psychology, or biology, or sociology: Which happens more than most people are aware of or any statistic could safely be published/acknowledged/agreed with -- This, from my talking to some of the higher-ups in the improvisational scientific side of police departments speaks of the lack of manpower, non-exclusive to criminal sciences, but equally not failing to recognize it most certainly, I feel, speaks volumes of the manpower needed to achieve better results in both fields: The end product being a somewhat desirable result formed by the combined effort of real life C.S.I. working independently from a policing agency, respectively, so that when actual data is published, it is keen and suited for criminal research specialists by those exact same criminal research specialists.

I think it's case in point regarding the inadequacies you mentioned, amongst many closely related others, where research is starved so disruptively that it becomes infinitely more of a reason to allow and push for forensic pathologists not to have to, speaking from firsthand experience, pretend and begin affiliating themselves in the rolls of a criminal psychologists so that the umbrella of funded and supported criminal research can open up over them as the only way of building upon research that is completely non-related to their area of expertise. The lack of information by those who are exclusively psychoanalysts, biologists, biopsychologists, etc. in these fields is why the lead homicide investigators of certain parishes begin to falsely assume these positions, and by doing so, outsource a heckuva lot of appropriation in what their objective field of concern actually is. Not only that, but when you say "Hey look! The law did the job of supposed science" it sets back any sort of corroborative data from being published except for a cycle of misprincipled executions... (This whole last paragraph is even more off-topic and political, sorry :-X)

For those in such a specialized field, they need, they need, they need, they need all the help they can get. They aren't getting it. And I don't feel that there's even the slightest notion that by enhancing simple, small-scale even, updates to faltering scientific text justifies anything that the criminally insane have done or will do. At the very worse, one million dollars thrown out to four or five social pathologists analyzing Camp Cupcakes is going to pale in comparison to many other expenditures.

And I do feel the lifesaving capacity of true, non half-assed, or worse, distorted investing (as mentioned above) in such an endeavor can help the priceless worth of a human life. I think more string-pulling is needed due to current political factors involving liberal sciences having been pretty squandered, so nahhh, I wouldn't cast it in the same light as a select few other funding priorities and inherent bureaucracies at this moment. I would, however, say such ideas need to be hammered upon that much more due to the fact that our current equation desperately needs to be balanced a lot better if we're going to assume the idea of working criminal science in The United States period, though.

[Latrinsorm]

Really? How?It's based on the assumption that there are very few ninjas in the United States. :P
It could have easily been my child, taken from my house in the middle of the night.Unless we figure out how to predict this behavior, it could still easily be your child, God forbid.
Where in my post did I make any mention that humanity was ready to give up after a few decades?Killing him is exactly equal to not giving our fullest effort to solving the problem.
So is anything I can think of.I would hope you can think of something that's realistic. It's a pretty odd disorder if you can't.
What does that have to do with why this man decided to rape and kill a little girl? History and science are certainly not to blame.Do you see how, in my post, that statement followed a quoted statement from CT? In brief, she stated that current researchers feel that it's not possible to rehabilitate (and certainly not possible to predict) predators of this sort. In response to this, I noted that the occupation of being a researcher is historically the occupation of being incorrect in predictions: that's why we have to keep working.
How do we ever start trying to figure out how to predict it?Obviously with something more than neurology, or perhaps merely a more thorough understanding of neurology.
We wouldn't know if whatever system implemented worked unless those individuals tagged were allowed to committ those crimes.That's not actually how science works.

[CrystalTears]

I'm not saying that pedophiles can't be helped. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to figure out what makes them tick. My issue with you, Latrin, is stating that you honestly feel that findings will help prevent and/or predict future happenings, and I call BS on that.

As mentioned when I was discussing this with someone, I would be very interested in seeing the ratio of reformed pedophiles with those that have committed the act again upon release.

[Parkbandit]

He has an extensive criminal record that includes 24 burglary arrests, carrying a concealed weapon and indecent exposure. In 1991, he was arrested in Kissimmee on a charge of fondling a child under age 16. Records don't show how the case was resolved.

During a house burglary in 1978, Couey was accused of grabbing a girl in her bedroom, placing his hand over her mouth and kissing her, Dawsy said. Couey was sentenced to 10 years in prison but was paroled in 1980.

[Warriorbird]

It's funny. I have no personal conflicts about arguing all day long for the death penalty on the same grounds that I justify allowing abortion. People act like this is somehow against my "liberalness."

[Tolwynn]

He has an extensive criminal record that includes 24 burglary arrests, carrying a concealed weapon and indecent exposure. In 1991, he was arrested in Kissimmee on a charge of fondling a child under age 16. Records don't show how the case was resolved.

During a house burglary in 1978, Couey was accused of grabbing a girl in her bedroom, placing his hand over her mouth and kissing her, Dawsy said. Couey was sentenced to 10 years in prison but was paroled in 1980.

And just think what a monster he would have been if not for our fine legal and penal systems correcting, rehabilitating and reforming this guy.

Oh, wait... guess maybe they didn't after all, and it only took the rape and murder of a little girl to somehow enable certain folks to manage to figure that much out.

[Warriorbird]

So...what...shoot him right away for burglary?

[DeV]

Killing him is exactly equal to not giving our fullest effort to solving the problem.Not in my opinion.


I would hope you can think of something that's realistic. It's a pretty odd disorder if you can't. You must be rubbing off on me. That can't be a good thing.


In response to this, I noted that the occupation of being a researcher is historically the occupation of being incorrect in predictions: that's why we have to keep working.That's why we are still working. Try to follow your own line of advice and be realistic. Why do you feel that researchers have stopped working at predicting criminal behavior and patterns? God, why?

Oh and regarding neurology, I should have been more specific. I'm referring to the central nervous system, which plays a fundemental role in the control of behavior and brain function. This is where psychiatry comes into play. Though the two disciplines have fundemantel differences they share a common substract, that being the human brain. Seems like the perfect place to start for such a massive undertaking. The funny thing is, it is already being done daily so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here at all.


That's not actually how science works.Says you.

Despite the constraints placed on science, it has never excluded and often serves to benefit from creativity, imagination(you've got both covered), and solid logic thrown into the mix. Furthermore, I don't recall explaining to you in any great or small detail exactly how science works.

[Sean of the Thread]

He was one burglary short. The usually execute them on the 25th occurrence.

[Tolwynn]

So...what...shoot him right away for burglary?

No, but lock him up good and long for fondling/molesting children.

Assaulted and kissed an underage girl while breaking into her home the first time, and paroled after two years.
Fondled an underage child the time after that.
Raped and killed one this time.

And those are the ones we at least know of.

Of course he'll stop now, right?

[Parkbandit]

Just goes to show you what our so called "justice" system has become.

Too much liberalism.

Not enough hard time.

[Nieninque]

No, but lock him up good and long for fondling/molesting children.

Assaulted and kissed an underage girl while breaking into her home the first time, and paroled after two years.
Fondled an underage child the time after that.
Raped and killed one this time.

And those are the ones we at least know of.

Of course he'll stop now, right?

Oh, how we forget that.

The amount of times a prevert offends are way beyond the amount of times they are caught.

[Sean]

"Assaulted and kissed an underage girl while breaking into her home the first time, and paroled after two years."

I'm glad it's still 1980.. acid wash jeans and bad hair here i come!

[Gan]

Assaulted and kissed an underage girl while breaking into her home the first time, and paroled after two years.
If I were the parent (father), he would have been shot for this one.



Fondled an underage child the time after that.
Minimally paralyzed from the neck down, most likely killed with my bare hands for this.



Raped and killed one this time.
I'm rollin with Sean2 and the rifle @ 200 yds for this, providing I didnt go for the throat the first time I saw him in person.

There's simply no room in our society for people such as this. Period.

[Jorddyn]

Just goes to show you what our so called "justice" system has become.

Too much liberalism.

Not enough hard time.

No problem with hard time. Problem with something imperfect (our justice system) performing an irreversible act (death penalty). You can let people out of prison if they are wrongfully convicted. You can't bring them back to life.

I look at it this way. If my neice was raped and killed, I would most likely wish death upon the person who did it to her.

If my neice was wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to death (highly unlikely, since she's 4), I would do everything in my power to keep her alive.

In the first situation, having the death penalty will not stop her from dying, nor will it bring her back. In the second, not having the death penalty will in fact keep her alive.

That's just how I see it, and part of my reason for being against capital punishment.

Jorddyn

[Stanley Burrell]

While we're on the subject:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/15/missing.boy/index.html


BRUNSWICK, Georgia (CNN) -- The body of a 6-year-old boy missing since last week was found Thursday alongside a road near the Glynn County Airport, police said.

A Department of Natural Resources ranger found the body of Christopher Barrios about 4 p.m., Glynn County Police Chief Matt Doering said.

The body was covered but not buried and the case is being treated as a homicide, Doering said.

About 60 volunteer searchers, many wearing T-shirts printed with the boy's photo, hugged and wept as they learned of the boy's death, The Associated Press reported.

"You suspected all along in your heart, it's just not the outcome you want," Mari Charnock told AP. "At least we know, though. At least it's over."

Police on Wednesday named a convicted sex offender, his parents and a family friend as suspects in the boy's disappearance.

George Edenfield, his parents David and Peggy Edenfield, and family friend Donald Dale are being held in connection with the case.

"We believe they were involved in this abduction, and they are the only ones, we believe, involved," Doering said Thursday.

The four gave information indicating that Christopher's body could be found in a field in the area, but searches there Tuesday and Wednesday turned up nothing.

The body was not where the suspects had told police to look, Doering said.

The four initially faced possible charges of lying to investigators, obstruction of justice and concealing the death of another.

Doering said Thursday the charges were likely to be upgraded.

George Edenfield, 31, was taken into custody Friday for a probation violation, according to Glynn County Police Capt. Jim Nazzrie. A resident of the same mobile home park as the boy, Edenfield consented to a police search of his home, but no clues were found there, Nazzrie said.

Christopher was last seen about 6:15 p.m. March 8, Nazzrie said.

At the mobile home, police spoke with Edenfield's mother, who told them to search woods they previously had combed, Nazzrie said. A second search of the woods turned up nothing, he said.

Police then arrested Edenfield's mother, Peggy, on suspicion of interfering with a criminal investigation, Nazzrie said.

"His mother did a lot of talking, like, 'You need to look here' and 'You should look over there,' " Nazzrie told CNN. Police followed the leads but found nothing, he said.

Edenfield was convicted of two counts of child molestation in 1997, according to Georgia's sex offender registry.

Only in America...

[Warriorbird]

"Too much liberalism.

Not enough hard time."

-PB

Eh...I'd like to see some of the stupid nonsense sentences reduced (Go to jail for 5 years for marijuana possession and ridiculous crap like that.) that are crowding and clogging our prison system.

At the same time, I'd love to have seen something happen to this bastard earlier if what Chris says about him is true.

In my family's county (Amherst, VA)...this bastard pastor walked away the other day with molesting a teenage boy. He "repented" even though he "believed he was innocent." The very conservative judge suspended the sentence for this "poor 70 year old."

Idiocy comes in all stripes. There's a lot of religious bias in judicial circles in the South.

[Bartlett]

I personally don't see much of a need to keep this guy around so we can study him and see what makes him tick. We already know quite a bit about these kinds of behaviors, we know a lot of causes (or at least common denominators) and we also know a lot of the warning signs for this behavior to take place. If your solution is to answer these questions more in depth, while you may be able to write a great paper or something, it won't actually do anything. Unless of course you are gonna go "Minority Report" on kids who show signs of this behavior.

On the right to decide someone else's fate: When it comes to the death penalty, applied to cases where that penalty is indeed a legal consequence of a crime, as decided by the general population, is not us deciding someone else's fate. This guy most likely knew he would face death if caught. It was apparently worth the risk of death to fulfill his despicable desires. He made his own decision to receive the death penalty. This is not an "eye for an eye." This is a consequence for an action that has been dictated by our society. This isn't revenge, it is justice.

Innocent deaths and the horror of a life sentence: The combination of these two arguments is an interesting one. It is a beyond horrible though that someone who is innocent could end up getting the death penalty, this is undeniable. However, people use the argument that life in prison is worse than death, so those who we would sentence to die should be left to rot in prison. If this were in fact the case, then what about sentencing innocent people to life in prson? If a criminal would be better off dead, what about the guy who is innocent but rots in jail until he dies? It is a hard choice, but unfortunately, we can't let criminals go unscathed for fear of faulty prosecution.

[Latrinsorm]

Why do you feel that researchers have stopped working at predicting criminal behavior and patterns? God, why?Not that they have stopped, that they are not getting access to all the data they have available if this guy dies of artificial causes. By your own declaration we don't have the full picture yet. Every bit of data we can get is crucial when every day we don't know is another day a kid gets molested.

[Back]

I think Latrin is touching on the whole thing TheE was saying... if we evolve we won’t have the problem of old men kidnapping, raping then killing children. And he is right. By that time there will be no need for a death penalty anyway. We just are not there yet.

Who is to say whether the course we are now on does not lead to that or not? By that I mean our current system of catching these people and making sure they don’t fuck up our evolution.

[Warriorbird]

A pretty Communist notion. The Hegellian end of history is a myth.

Problems evolve into different problems.

[Back]

A pretty Communist notion. The Hegellian end of history is a myth.

Problems evolve into different problems.

Solving problems is evolution.

[zhelas]

If you were taken Bob.. and molested.. then thrust in a garbage bag and suffocated.. I would feel the same way about your abductor.

I am sure Bob you would hope and pray that your father/brother/mother/sister would come and rescue you and if that meant one of your family members killed him to protect you all the better.

[zhelas]

I'm not saying that pedophiles can't be helped. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to figure out what makes them tick. My issue with you, Latrin, is stating that you honestly feel that findings will help prevent and/or predict future happenings, and I call BS on that.
:yeahthat:

[zhelas]

So...what...shoot him right away for burglary?

If you do. You have to make sure you kill him. Otherwise he will come back and sue you.

[zhelas]

▪ Closes loopholes in current law and ensures the state has a mandatory minimum of 15 years to life for any offender that rapes a child under the age of 14. The offender must be 7 years older than the child.

▪ For every convicted forcible sex act, the offender will receive consecutive, full-term sentences. (For example, if an offender molests the same child three times or a different child, the offender will receive 45 years to life or 3 consecutive sentences).

▪ Closes loopholes in the state's law by eliminating judicial discretion to ensure all offenders will be sentenced 25 years to life.

▪ Adds the crime of kidnapping and burglary with the intent to commit a forcible sex crime to the mandatory minimum sentencing of life with the possibility of parole.

▪ Adds more crimes like continuous sex abuse of a child to be charged 15-25 years to life.

▪ Eliminates the use of “good-time credits” for violent sex offenders, ensuring they serve a full 15 to 25 years before being considered for parole.

▪ Requires registered sex offenders released on parole to be placed on a GPS tracking system for life.

▪ Requires offenders to pay for their own GPS equipment, if they are financially able.

▪ Allows for an offender to be evaluated as a sexually violent predator after one crime, rather than waiting for a second victim.

▪ Requires an indeterminate commitment.

▪ Requires SVP's parole period to toll while in the state hospital so they serve their parole time after discharge.

▪ Allows DAs to charge a felony on possession of child pornography.

▪ Specifically prohibits any contact or communication with a minor for the purpose of engaging in sexual conduct or abuse.

▪ Closes loopholes by allowing law enforcement to act as decoys in order to
engage and capture internet predators.

▪ Imposes an additional five-year prison term for persons who use specified controlled substances (i.e. date rape drugs) in the commission of specified sexual crimes, such as rape.

▪ Provides for parole terms of up to 10 years for the most heinous sex offenses.

▪ Increases various fines and penalties.

All states should have this as a minimum on these monsters.