On Wings of Eagles

[Jorddyn]

So, I stayed up way too late last night. And, as I'm watching late-night informercials, I saw one for On Wings of Eagles (http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_wings).

All I can say is... uh, what? For the low low price of $350 you can help on Jew move to Israel.

This may just be the oddest charity that I've ever come across. Of course, Pat Robertson was stumping for it, which may explain a thing or two.

From their website...



On Wings of Eagles assists Jews in making aliyah (immigration to Israel) and becoming full, productive members of Israeli society.


... yet every person shown on the program was 60+ and hoping to get to Israel before s/he died.

I can understand exploring one's heritage. I can understand pilgrimage. I guess I'm just ridiculously confused by a charity whose sole purpose is to move people to another country.

Edited to add: In 2005, they raised $16,522,277.00. :wtf:

Jorddyn

[Xandalf]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Poor soviet Jews shouldn't get assistance getting to Israel?

[Skeeter]

is any price too much to move the filthy jews out of your country?

[Jorddyn]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Poor soviet Jews shouldn't get assistance getting to Israel?


The point is, to me, it seems a very odd charity.

It'd be like setting one up that helps all Catholics move to Rome, or all Irish to Ireland.

It just seems... weird. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't claim to know a lot about the Jewish faith. Of course, the premise is that it is fulfilling a prophecy in the bible, which makes it a Christian charity.

:shrug:

Jorddyn

[Bobmuhthol]

There are so many things wrong with what you just said. No joke.

[Stanley Burrell]

I dunno about wanton anti-Semetism, but the last time I went to Argentina, I thought I had gone to China.

¿Hablas Castellano? had never sounded so.

Um. Accentuated in Chinese.


Edited to add: In 2005, they raised $16,522,277.00.

Oh snap, Jews not being cheap? Perish the thought.

That's a frickin' weird or made up figure if it isn't from Birthright.

I don't think the larger lumpsums from mainstream Diaspora contributers would go towards any of Robertson's expenditures, or its matching ideologies.


On Wings of Eagles assists Jews in making aliyah (immigration to Israel) and becoming full, productive members of Israeli society.

:wtf: An Aliyah is just reciting a barucha when you're called to the bima.

Or that hot singer chick who died in a plane crash (sounds a little different.)

[Artha]

An Aliyah is just reciting a barucha when you're called to the bima.
Those silly guys!

[Sean of the Thread]

is any price too much to move the filthy jews out of your country?

Word

[Alfster]

I hear in Israel there are better cosmetic surgeons, most even special in nose reductions

[Ignot]

I hear in Israel there are better cosmetic surgeons, most even special in nose reductions

Can you do a funny one next time?

[sst]

SOOO on the PC you cant be racist to black people, but you can to jews, how cool is that!?

[Gan]

Masel tov!

[Skirmisher]

SOOO on the PC you cant be racist to black people, but you can to jews, how cool is that!?

Slow day for you?

[Jorddyn]

There are so many things wrong with what you just said. No joke.

Enlighten me.

As I said, I don't claim to know much about the Jewish faith, so I'm just a bit confused by this.

Jorddyn

[Alfster]

Can you do a funny one next time?

I fuxxored it up

No drinking for me!

[Skeeter]

SOOO on the PC you cant be racist to black people, but you can to jews, how cool is that!?

I'd pay twice as much to move all the filthy blacks out of my country.

[Nieninque]

Slow day for you?

It doesnt happen very often, but Dave made a valid point.

You going to super moderate at any point soon?

[Skeeter]

I thought we were past the point where italics had to be placed on all sarcasm.

[Sean of the Thread]

I hear in Israel there are better cosmetic surgeons, most even special in nose reductions

U2U Jenisi with a referral.

[Skirmisher]

It doesnt happen very often, but Dave made a valid point.

You going to super moderate at any point soon?

Dave has better expressed his opinion recently, even if i still disagree with it, but this time he made an incorrect assumption.

It was sarcasm and i knew that.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Stanley Burrell]

Those silly guys!

I've been thinking for like six minutes now if maybe it has double meaning. Sort of... Maybe there's a spin on the actual word that could also have a Zionist ideology applied to it. These are realllly common blessings read from Torah or Haftorah scrolls. My liberal mindset is trying to critique whether the passages used are shifted for different sects of Judaism.

I just looked it up on Wiki and have to say that it's extremely bizarre that every definition has to deal with a strict Zionistic immigration. That's really weird. Alright.

Usually, if not always, I've only heard of "hadassah" (sp?!) as the word being used to describe just about any sort of charity, used in my old Reform synogogue to describe Birthright.

Unless there's a seperate spelling in Hebrew, which I can only read when voweled, then it's just something to think about in my brain for today. That's actually my food for thought today. CCHHHHHHuzzah.

.

P.S. Reform-leaning-conservative and Orthodox from that point on don't believe in marring the body, or at least the idea of having a proper burial if plastic surgery would rank up there with religious taboos like tats and piercings, or what have you. I would think, anyway.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'd pay twice as much to move all the filthy blacks out of my country.

Wouldn't the money be better spent shipping perverted catholics out?

[Skeeter]

they can be 3rd.

[Tsa`ah]

Here's the thing about IFCJ and similar "charities" ...

Like many religious charities that feed starving kids and provide them with medicine and education .... it comes with a hook. Learn your NT passages and be a good little Christian soldier ... or you die of infection or starvation ... and do so without any of our education.

I became aware of these evacuation "charities" in college. In a nutshell they drop the Christian WMD in an Eastern European block Jewish community. They set up a "temple", decorate it with all the flare you would expect in a southern babtist church ... except with Judaism in mind. They hold services with food and it starts out with this poorly trained Christian minister dressed up like a Rabi (wolf in sheep's clothing) ... butchering the local take on Hebrew ... not a clue about Aramaic ... and throughout the temple there are "plants". People dressed up like locals who bust out with the swaying and other babble when the "Rabi" starts in on the "savior" and how he can still forgive the Jews for their "crime" against god.

They then make the prospect of aliyah obtainable ... they just have to accept Christ, give every bit of personal information to the "organization" and the "organization" will in turn act as the Priceline between the new converts and Israel.

After the converts have settled somewhere in Israel, they get regular visits from the local chapter of Jews for Christ. The local chapter pressures for tithes and keeps track of the family awaiting opportune moments to bleed them even more ... death in the family, lonely senior citizens .... whatever.

They also gain some political power in votes. All of the people they provide passage for are pelted with campaign materials for their candidates.

Here's the kicker ... no one needs to donate money in order for distressed Jewish communites to be evacuated. Not even for individuals. Israel has plenty of government funded programs and there are a multitude of Jewish charities that provide for evacuation and aliyah. These "Christian" charities aren't needed. Well at least no one needs to donate to them.

These charities and Christian organizations are exactly why the Israeli people are taking a hard look at immigration and what makes one a Jew. Way to many "Christians" converting to Judaism ... yet still practicing their own form of "Christianity" done the limbo under the aliyah wire. This is why you can't take more than 2 steps anywhere in Israel without running into a Christian nutjob that wants to convert you or for you to donate to their cause. There has been a rash of Christian "pilgrims" in the last few decades that went over and just stayed. Some litter the streets, others join whatever "Judea Christian" church they happen upon and continue to burden the Israeli tax payers.

In a nutshell, Christian fanatics, and swindlers found a loophole to get into Israel and in doing so they also decided to cash in on the American populous they left behind by pandering to their charitable sympathies toward the poor oppressed Jews that can't make it to Israel.

The whole thing is sickening.

[Methais]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/jew-1.jpg

[Drew]

It'd be like setting one up that helps all Catholics move to Rome, or all Irish to Ireland.

Or all black people to the moon.

[Nieninque]

Dave has better expressed his opinion recently, even if i still disagree with it, but this time he made an incorrect assumption.

It was sarcasm and i knew that.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Oh awesome, so you can post racist shit as long as you dress it up as sarcasm.

Nice to know.

[DeV]

Always nice to find a loophole even if it is a pretty damn stupid one.

[Back]

PC has gone to hell lately.

[Sean of the Thread]

They set up a "temple", decorate it with all the flare you would expect in a southern babtist church ... except with Judaism in mind.


I've been to many Southern Baptist churches and there is hardly a difference from my plain jane Presbyterian church. Go figure.

[Skirmisher]

Oh awesome, so you can post racist shit as long as you dress it up as sarcasm.

Nice to know.

If i thought that someone was in actuality "dressing" something up as sarcasm just to slip in heartfelt racist statements you can be sure I would oppose it to the best of my ability.

Nieninque, I guess I am surprised that you would think that I would be endorsing any such thing. I thought that you knew me better than that.

[Skeeter]

Oh awesome, so you can post racist shit as long as you dress it up as sarcasm.

Nice to know.

climb back under your bridge and wait for the billy goats to show up.

[Tsa`ah]

I've been to many Southern Baptist churches and there is hardly a difference from my plain jane Presbyterian church. Go figure.


The Crucifix (viewed as idolatry along with other Christian symbols by many Jews) is they symbol Christianity as a whole. It's a religious icon that permeates history all the way back to the founding of Catholicism. What the modern world recognizes as the symbol for Judaism has only been around since the re-founding of Israel. While it is viewed as a religious icon by most of the world, it is only a cultural symbol for Jews. It was a symbol the Nazis used to determine who, in their camps, were Jewish. Various symbols have been used through the ages by societies wanting to distinguish between Jews and everyone else. This symbol has ranged from an asterisk to an X with a horizontal dividing line. The symbols have been nothing more than visual interpretations of the literary symbol described on the shield that David bore into battle.

Modern, less orthodox, temples/synagogues have incorporated the star adopted by Israel as their banner. You can walk into many state side,western European, and some Israeli synagogues and find things such as Hebrew inscribed pulpits, coverings, the modern star of David, and carpeting. All of these things are absent in orthodox and older temples/synagogues ... especially in the eastern block.

Older and orthodox temples are barren inside and usually outside. No carpeting, no symbols, no engravings ... no decoration ... as is outlined by the law.

So "plain jane" to you would be adorned with typical southern babtist flare to many Jewish communities.

[Sean of the Thread]

Fair enough. I see it was just a poor analogy now.

[Nieninque]

If i thought that someone was in actuality "dressing" something up as sarcasm just to slip in heartfelt racist statements you can be sure I would oppose it to the best of my ability.

Nieninque, I guess I am surprised that you would think that I would be endorsing any such thing. I thought that you knew me better than that.

I thought I did...apparently if you are in the "in crowd" you can post objectionable content if it's funny.

How do you stop a nigger from drowning?


By using the Players’ Corner, you agree not to:

(d) upload, post, hyperlink, or otherwise transmit Content that is invasive of one's privacy, libelous, obscene, personally threatening, tortuous, or ethnically, racially, or sexually objectionable.

Wow, would you look at that.

It doesnt say anything about being funny and racist or sarcastic and racist (not that the "jokes" that have been posted here are particularly obvious in sarcasm). The key word is objectionable. You know as well as I do that if theotherjohn has posted those excuses for jokes, they would have been deleted and he would have received demerits or whatever they are called. Because it's people you like, they are ok.

Lame.

[Drew]

The Crucifix (viewed as idolatry along with other Christian symbols by many Jews) is they symbol Christianity as a whole.


Since when? It's the religious symbol of Catholics, but I can only think of one protestant church that uses the crucifix.

[Stanley Burrell]

Since when? It's the religious symbol of Catholics, but I can only think of one protestant church that uses the crucifix.

I guess the J4Js would incorporate it as well.


I became aware of these evacuation "charities" in college. In a nutshell they drop the Christian WMD in an Eastern European block Jewish community. They set up a "temple", decorate it with all the flare you would expect in a southern babtist church ... except with Judaism in mind. They hold services with food and it starts out with this poorly trained Christian minister dressed up like a Rabi (wolf in sheep's clothing) ... butchering the local take on Hebrew ... not a clue about Aramaic ... and throughout the temple there are "plants". People dressed up like locals who bust out with the swaying and other babble when the "Rabi" starts in on the "savior" and how he can still forgive the Jews for their "crime" against god.

I was brought up very Reform, and don't think that anyone would buy into that at all really. I mean, whether you're talking about Ashkenaz Chabad Chassids or avante-guarde Judaism, one thing that pretty much serves as a universal constant would be the idea of monotheism.

I guess that as far as the imbedded payroll goes, college students who are confronted with prostletyzation could pretty much appear in any building of worship and be Jewish, so long as they aren't actually worshipping the ideas of other supernatural deities, which point in case they are no longer Jewish or actively violating the first commandment.

My thoughts on a lot of the forms of organized religions aren't exactly non-biased, so excuse for me for claiming that Jews who would buy into prostletyzing would fall just about under the same category, on all conceivable levels, as their, literally, preachers.

Heh, if a Rabbinite started talking about our televangelist savior, I'd definitely bust out a Peter Boyle's Hayzeus-style-ressurected rendition from that one scene in The Dream Team where he walks into the all black Baptist church.

.

So, in conclusion, "The Dream Team" starring Michael Keaton was, in fact, a movie of biblically awesome proportion and sancted eonake Godliness.

[Skirmisher]

I thought I did...apparently if you are in the "in crowd" you can post objectionable content if it's funny.

How do you stop a nigger from drowning?



Wow, would you look at that.

It doesnt say anything about being funny and racist or sarcastic and racist (not that the "jokes" that have been posted here are particularly obvious in sarcasm). The key word is objectionable. You know as well as I do that if theotherjohn has posted those excuses for jokes, they would have been deleted and he would have received demerits or whatever they are called. Because it's people you like, they are ok.

Lame.

If I were some robot editing things in a vacuum simply because it fits a standard mathematical criteria then perhaps you would be right.

However I am not a robot. I see the world in context.

I make my decisions on what to moderate or to ask the posters to edit based on what I know of the poster and the context of the post. It isn't about who I LIKE as much as what I know of the person.

ParkBandit and I are not the best of friends and most likely never will be but I also do not see him as being racist at all and would give him the benefit of the doubt if something iffy came up just as I did with Skeeter this time.

Theotherjohn was and presumably still is a reactionary dick who got off on insulting people and demeaning entire races and made it clear that he really felt that way and that his words were no joke. Someone like that will not ever get the benefit of the doubt from me.

If I were as capricious as you have for some reason implied that I am I would have edited your post because of objectionable content when in fact i know you are not a racist person, even if you are very quick to anger and judgment of me at the moment for some reason, and are instead trying to make a point.

[CrystalTears]

Although it does make you wonder why bashing on Jews and Catholics is basically okay to discuss but the second that any mention is made against gays or blacks, it's taken care of.

[Stanley Burrell]

Although it does make you wonder why bashing on Jews and Catholics is basically okay to discuss but the second that any mention is made against gays or blacks, it's taken care of.

It's only fair considering we control all the money, dur.

[DeV]

Although it does make you wonder why bashing on Jews and Catholics is basically okay to discuss but the second that any mention is made against gays or blacks, it's taken care of.Hey now, don't get all jealous and stuff just because the blacks get a free ride to the moon and the Jews and Catholics have to pay for theirs.

[Stanley Burrell]

Money is not an issue since we stole it all from the Catholics.

[Methais]

Nigger spic jew wop daigo pollack chink jap gook fag dyke raghead.

Just kidding, I'm being sarcastic of course.

http://rsdb.org/

[Skirmisher]

Methais, stop being an asshole.

[Jorddyn]

Hey now, don't get all jealous and stuff just because the blacks get a free ride to the moon and the Jews and Catholics have to pay for theirs.


What about the black Catholics?

Jorddyn, not black, but can I pretend for a free moon ride?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Enlighten me.

As I said, I don't claim to know much about the Jewish faith, so I'm just a bit confused by this.>>


It'd be like setting one up that helps all Catholics move to Rome, or all Irish to Ireland.
Any history book that covers World War II would tell you differently. It's not like that at all.

Of course, the premise is that it is fulfilling a prophecy in the bible, which makes it a Christian charity.
The Bible at its origin was written and read and believed by Jews. Christianity and the New Testament came many, many years later.

[Skeeter]

It's a little know fact that I'm actually a black jew. Since I am a black jew I am able to say these things.

Nein and Methais I find your language abusive and hurtfull because you look and believe differently than me.

Praise be to allah.

[Tsa`ah]

Since when? It's the religious symbol of Catholics, but I can only think of one protestant church that uses the crucifix.

Heh ... since around the founding of the Catholic church ... as I said. The very church that pretty much gave birth to organized Christianity.

I don't know what planet you live on, but every Christian church I drive by has a cross outside (aka crucifix). Every time a bible thumper shoves their leather bound mass of rolling papers under my nose there's a crucifix clearly embossed on the cover. Every time I flip through the channels and passed the evangelical channels .... there's usually a crucifix displayed somewhere on the screen.

I think you're trying to separate "cross" from "crucifix" ... and they're one in the same.

[Back]

The point is, to me, it seems a very odd charity.

It'd be like setting one up that helps all Catholics move to Rome, or all Irish to Ireland.

It just seems... weird. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't claim to know a lot about the Jewish faith. Of course, the premise is that it is fulfilling a prophecy in the bible, which makes it a Christian charity.

:shrug:

Jorddyn

Were you asking about what the whole aliya/zionist/diaspora thing is all about? Or just about this being a christian organization?

[Tsa`ah]

I was brought up very Reform, and don't think that anyone would buy into that at all really. I mean, whether you're talking about Ashkenaz Chabad Chassids or avante-guarde Judaism, one thing that pretty much serves as a universal constant would be the idea of monotheism.

I guess that as far as the imbedded payroll goes, college students who are confronted with prostletyzation could pretty much appear in any building of worship and be Jewish, so long as they aren't actually worshipping the ideas of other supernatural deities, which point in case they are no longer Jewish or actively violating the first commandment.

My thoughts on a lot of the forms of organized religions aren't exactly non-biased, so excuse for me for claiming that Jews who would buy into prostletyzing would fall just about under the same category, on all conceivable levels, as their, literally, preachers.

There is a huge difference between you, a reform Jew, bred, raised, educated, and partaking in the luxuries of modern civilization in the US and an eastern block European Jewish community just coming out of an era where they could not worship, get a daily supply of toiletries, use electricity for more than 10 hours a day ... etc etc.

Stan would not be the target of such groups, be it for the opportunity to move to Israel or the help in the "bankroll" operations. Distressed communities are the target for "aided" evacuation and brain washed evangelicals or uninformed philanthropists are the targets for "bankroll" funds.

On your premise that a Jew can go into any place of worship to to worship ... true. Once they cross the line of accepting a human being as the incarnation of god, or god's son, or a human being as their "savior" ... they cease practicing Judaism and start practicing Christianity. While they are still Jewish to the extent that they are, or were, part of the culture ... they are no longer Jewish in the sense of faith.

Jews for Christ or any other "Jewish" church can not be considered a Jewish institution. They are Christian institutions no matter what traditions they hold to or butcher.

[TheEschaton]

I don't know what planet you live on, but every Christian church I drive by has a cross outside (aka crucifix). Every time a bible thumper shoves their leather bound mass of rolling papers under my nose there's a crucifix clearly embossed on the cover. Every time I flip through the channels and passed the evangelical channels .... there's usually a crucifix displayed somewhere on the screen.

Heh, you're mistaken about that. Maybe you know a lot about Judaism, but your knowledge of Christianity = lacking.

A crucifix is a cross with a depiction of the hung Christ nailed upon it. Catholics use it, and maybe one or two other Protestant denominations, because we're very Crucifixion-centered. A cross is just the actual cross itself, which is used by most of the Protestant sects because they're a lot more Resurrection focused, and therefore, their crosses would not have Jesus nailed to them because he'd already be risen.

IOW, us Catholics are sadistic fucks who like to focus on the death before the rising.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

The point is, to me, it seems a very odd charity.

It'd be like setting one up that helps all Catholics move to Rome, or all Irish to Ireland.

It just seems... weird. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't claim to know a lot about the Jewish faith. Of course, the premise is that it is fulfilling a prophecy in the bible, which makes it a Christian charity.

:shrug:

Jorddyn

I missed the question amidst all of the kids giggling to themselves for getting away with something other than showing their ass'.

First you need to distinguish the differences in your analogy. The Irish, and pretty much every immigrant to the US, did so by choice. The Vatican wouldn't want Catholics, or any other, immigration. That would mean they would have to do much more than collect tithes and use them for humanitarian efforts they deemed worthy ... and it's a very small patch of land to begin with.

To understand the effort in aiding Jewish immigration to Israel, you have to look through Jewish history. Prior to Israel, Jews were nomadic, mercenaries, or slaves. While we like to label icons like Abraham as kings ... they were no more than tribal chieftans. Their armies scored in the hundreds and rarely in the thousands until Moses led the exodus from Egypt ... and even then they were no where near the numbers we would find in Israel.

With Israel we have an established nation and government. The Jewish people are governed by the law and the government's enterpretation of that law. While the people still maintain a tribal identity, they don't war with each other nor are they burdened with appeasing their tribal chief and the chiefs of other tribes ... such as giving up their daughters etc.

The Jewish people owed their alligiance to Israel because it was believed Israel was delivered to them by god.

We go through the destruction of the first and second temples, the scattering of the Jews with each incident, and the gradual decline into a nomadic existance ... with the exception of the Zionistic belief they now carry. Israel = Zion btw.

This belief is held as Jews settle, as Jews are run off to only settle again ... and the process keeps going until modern times. Each generation holding allegiance to a dead nation and the desire to self govern once again.

We come to the end of WWII, the movement for a Jewish state and the collapse of the Ottaman empire ... and the Jews move back to Israel.

As the new Isreali government is settling, they make sure that provisions are made to allow Jews to return to Israel and also establish that efforts should be made to evacuate communites that are threatened when possible (See Ethiopia).

Unfortunately they left that door open not realizing how many loopholes it presented and never made amendments to the law ... now they're at an impass because of the rather large evangelical "Jewish" (see christian) community.

[Tsa`ah]

Heh, you're mistaken about that. Maybe you know a lot about Judaism, but your knowledge of Christianity = lacking.

A crucifix is a cross with a depiction of the hung Christ nailed upon it. Catholics use it, and maybe one or two other Protestant denominations, because we're very Crucifixion-centered. A cross is just the actual cross itself, which is used by most of the Protestant sects because they're a lot more Resurrection focused, and therefore, their crosses would not have Jesus nailed to them because he'd already be risen.

IOW, us Catholics are sadistic fucks who like to focus on the death before the rising.

-TheE-

Then I should amend my statement to "The cross and crucifix are recognized as symbols for Christianity" ... because to me they're really no different.

[TheEschaton]

Much like the star of David and the six-pointed X with a horizontal line through it aren't considered much different to any of us. ;)

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Although it does make you wonder why bashing on Jews and Catholics is basically okay to discuss but the second that any mention is made against gays or blacks, it's taken care of.

Which was the point of my catholic post. Actually I got points for a non insultive jewish comment in the recent past.. who gives a shit.


I agree with Skirmy.

[Tsa`ah]

Much like the star of David and the six-pointed X with a horizontal line through it aren't considered much different to any of us. ;)

-TheE-

There is a difference between the star and the cross/crucifix.

One is a cultural icon, the other is religious.

Jews adopted a symbol used by people trying to wipe them out. It's intermeshed in the notion of "never again". Other similar icons were used to identify Jews at various points in history ... but never by Jews.

The cross/crucifix was never thrust upon Christianity. It an adopted symbol taken from a Roman form of execution ... an execution style that showed no prejudice.

[Sean of the Thread]

There is a difference between the star and the cross/crucifix.

One is a cultural icon, the other is religious.

Jews adopted a symbol used by people trying to wipe them out. It's intermeshed in the notion of "never again". Other similar icons were used to identify Jews at various points in history ... but never by Jews.

The cross/crucifix was never thrust upon Christianly. It an adopted symbol taken from a Roman form of execution ... an execution style that showed no prejudice.

Uhm no sir.. a crucifix depicts the EXECUTION OF CHRIST for basically being a heretic.

The Star of David was used LONG BEFORE the nazis decided to use it to mark a Jew.. it's equal to someone using a mercedes symbol to mark "GASP" a mercedes. The yellow nazi star does not = Star of David.

[Tsa`ah]

Uhm no sir.. a crucifix depicts the EXECUTION OF CHRIST for basically being a heretic.

The Star of David was used LONG BEFORE the nazis decided to use it to mark a Jew.. it's equal to someone using a mercedes symbol to mark "GASP" a mercedes. The yellow nazi star does not = Star of David.

Learn to read maybe?

I'll give you a little time to backtrack through my posts.

[Methais]

Red Sea Pedestrians.

[Sean of the Thread]

Learn to read maybe?

I'll give you a little time to backtrack through my posts.

I'll admit I usually skip your garbage posts but here is a recap of the only one relevant to my post.


There is a difference between the star and the cross/crucifix.

One is a cultural icon, the other is religious.

Jews adopted a symbol used by people trying to wipe them out. It's intermeshed in the notion of "never again". Other similar icons were used to identify Jews at various points in history ... but never by Jews.

The cross/crucifix was never thrust upon Christianity. It an adopted symbol taken from a Roman form of execution ... an execution style that showed no prejudice.

[Tsa`ah]

I'll admit I usually skip your garbage posts but here is a recap of the only one relevant to my post.

I often wonder if it actually takes work to be a brainless idiot or if it's some genetic "gift" bestowed upon so many.


What the modern world recognizes as the symbol for Judaism has only been around since the re-founding of Israel. While it is viewed as a religious icon by most of the world, it is only a cultural symbol for Jews. It was a symbol the Nazis used to determine who, in their camps, were Jewish. Various symbols have been used through the ages by societies wanting to distinguish between Jews and everyone else. This symbol has ranged from an asterisk to an X with a horizontal dividing line. The symbols have been nothing more than visual interpretations of the literary symbol described on the shield that David bore into battle.

The color makes little difference. It is the same designed used by the Nazis.

While the design may have appeared here and there through out history, so have other visual depictions of the symbol described on David's shield.

Other cultures have used various symbols to distinguish Jews from regular citizenry, most from their depictions of the described symbol ... none were adopted by Jews, specifically Israel, until the end of the holocaust.

[Sean of the Thread]

I often wonder if it actually takes work to be a brainless idiot or if it's some genetic "gift" bestowed upon so many.



The color makes little difference. It is the same designed used by the Nazis.

While the design may have appeared here and there through out history, so have other visual depictions of the symbol described on David's shield.

Other cultures have used various symbols to distinguish Jews from regular citizenry, most from their depictions of the described symbol ... none were adopted by Jews, specifically Israel, until the end of the holocaust.

From your favorite liberal source.

" This article focuses on the Star of David as a Jewish symbol. For other uses of this ancient sign, see the article Hexagram.

The Star of David in the oldest surviving complete copy of the Masoretic text, the Leningrad Codex, dated 1008.

The Shield of David or Magen David in Hebrew, מָגֵן דָּוִד with nikkud or מגן דוד without, pronounced Mahgayn Daveed [ma.'gayn da.'veed] in Modern Hebrew and Mogein Dovid ['mɔ.geɪn 'dɔ.vid] or Mogen Dovid ['mɔ.gen 'dɔ.vid] in Ashkenazi Hebrew and Yiddish is a generally recognized symbol of Jewish Community and Judaism. It is named after King David of ancient Israel; and its usage began in the Middle Ages, alongside the more ancient symbol of the menorah.

With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 the Star of David on the Flag of Israel has also become a symbol of Israel."


Still not quite as idiotic as your "The cross/crucifix was never thrust upon Christianity. It an adopted symbol taken from a Roman form of execution ... an execution style that showed no prejudice." blast.

[Back]

The question has been asked before... if Jesus was hanged would churches all have nooses or hanging Jesus'?

[Sean of the Thread]

My guess is yes just using basic logic. HOWEVER.. we all know there is only one depiction of Christ that matters.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/BuddyJesus.jpg

[Tsa`ah]

From your favorite liberal source.

" This article focuses on the Star of David as a Jewish symbol. For other uses of this ancient sign, see the article Hexagram.

The Star of David in the oldest surviving complete copy of the Masoretic text, the Leningrad Codex, dated 1008.

The Shield of David or Magen David in Hebrew, מָגֵן דָּוִד with nikkud or מגן דוד without, pronounced Mahgayn Daveed [ma.'gayn da.'veed] in Modern Hebrew and Mogein Dovid ['mɔ.geɪn 'dɔ.vid] or Mogen Dovid ['mɔ.gen 'dɔ.vid] in Ashkenazi Hebrew and Yiddish is a generally recognized symbol of Jewish Community and Judaism. It is named after King David of ancient Israel; and its usage began in the Middle Ages, alongside the more ancient symbol of the menorah.

With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 the Star of David on the Flag of Israel has also become a symbol of Israel."


Still not quite as idiotic as your "The cross/crucifix was never thrust upon Christianity. It an adopted symbol taken from a Roman form of execution ... an execution style that showed no prejudice." blast.

Stupidity does come naturally for you doesn't it.

The "image" of the star that crested David's shield has been interpreted from the description given by text you had to research.

The depiction has been different through out history. An asterisk, an X with a horizontal line bisecting cross points, 6 dots, a 6 pointed filled star .... there are many.

The star as depicted, sans the color, on the Israeli flag is the depiction adopted by the Nazis to distinguish the Jews from other camp inmates.

Though I'm dying to know what my favorite liberal source is since you failed to link it ... I'm also curious as to how anyone but an imbecile could interpret my statement about the crucifix/cross a "blast".

Christ was crucified. The means of his death and the visual depiction of his death was adopted by the early Catholics and Christians. It is not a symbol that was thrust upon them in order to facilitate efficient persecution. It is a symbol derived from a form of Roman execution. I can only imagine what the adopted symbol would have been if the preferred method of Roman execution was something like drawing and quartering, the iron maiden, burning at the stake, or stoning.

In short, the Star of David has been depicted in several ways since the only record of it is in text. We have no visual historic reference outside of text ... therefore how the star is depicted has relied completely upon artistic license.

[Sean of the Thread]

You hate being wrong don't you.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm not only curious as to how I'm wrong. I'm curious about my favorite liberal source that you failed to link.

The only thing you have proven is your inability to comprehend. Your research didn't prove me wrong, rather it made me repeat for the third or fourth time in an effort to make that broken bulb in your head work.

Broke is broke I guess. You couldn't comprehend that you stepped in dog shit unless someone shoved your face in it.

[Latrinsorm]

The Crucifix (viewed as idolatry along with other Christian symbols by many Jews) is they symbol Christianity as a whole. It's a religious icon that permeates history all the way back to the founding of Catholicism.Actually, Christians didn't use either the crucifix or the cross as a symbol early on. For one because they were being rather persecuted and for another because crucifixion was (in addition to being just plain terrible) a terribly humiliating death. The cross was a mark of shame for quite awhile. These two reasons are why early Christianity used things like the fish and the pentagram.
you have to look through Jewish history.Incidentally, sociological research suggests that there was no Exodus in history.
the collapse of the Ottaman empire The Ottoman Empire was fully portioned up in 1920. The British Mandate of Palestine is what ended after World War II.

I was taking it for granted that you were right about the star of David thing, but man, it's not looking so good for you on the historical front.

In any event, it's pretty baffling that you think the cross and the crucifix are interchangeable but not the Nazi star and the medieval star, design-wise.

[Back]

Always been fascinated by symbols and signs so I have a decent library of books on the subject. Here are some alternative explainations to both the Star of David and the cross. Here we break down the symbols into their base components, understand the component’s meanings, then consider the combinations as a whole. All of this info is taken from The Book of Signs by Rudolph Koch (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Signs-Dover-Pictorial-Archive/dp/0486201627) and is not my own.

The cross is made up of two of the most basic symbols in existence. The vertical line represents the one-ness of God. Think of it as mankind and God communicating between Earth and Heaven. The horizontal stroke is the Earth where all life exists and everything is balanced. Crossing the two brings us all of existence, Earth, life, balance, mankind and God.

The Star of David is basically comprised of two triangles, one upright, the other inverted. An upright triangle was an Egyptian symbol for the Godhead and the Pythagorean symbol for wisdom. But it also represents the female aspect... firmly based yet yearning for higher things. The inverted triangle on the other hand represents the male aspect. Celestial and imparts truth. Combined we have a sort of pagen Yin Yang... the divine perfection of what is the best of both a man and a woman.

Some of my other books are packed away otherwise I would revile you with numerical mumbo-jumbo.

Remember, this is not what I believe, just something in an old book I have.

[Jorddyn]

Were you asking about what the whole aliya/zionist/diaspora thing is all about? Or just about this being a christian organization?

I'm actually curious about the entire organization, and people's thoughts on it. I feel somewhat better about my leeriness (is that a word?) about the "charity". Of course, Pat Robertson stumping for anything makes me wonder.


Then I should amend my statement to "The cross and crucifix are recognized as symbols for Christianity" ... because to me they're really no different.

They're quite different, speaking as someone who went through 13 years of Catholic school. However, I understand that from an outsider's point of view, they may be viewed as the same.

I never made an differentiation between the Star of David as a symbol of the Jewish faith and the Cross as a symbol of Christian faith (with the Crucifix being predominantly the symbol of the Catholics), as to me they were both meant to represent one's beliefs.

I understand that there has been (and still is) anti-semitism present in the world, which is why I figured I'd ask if I was just crazy for finding the charity odd, or if I was missing something. Obviously, I was.

Jorddyn

[Stanley Burrell]

Tsa`ah, I am well aware that a Christmas tree isn't denoted as a religious symbol. And isn't barred from almost any and all public places in the U.S. as such.

I'm also very well aware that channukiahs, for the most part, are (by comparison.)

I'm also-also aware that many non-Christian symbols aside from any-and-all objects associated with Judaism are banned from public display; that includes the idea of not having to endure a philosophical discussion on whether a color and shape symbolizes a supernatural theistic representation regarding the limitus of what can be shown.

American culture is defined by its contemporary boundaries. I am a strong supporter of our first ammendment. The difference I see between waving around Magein David/sextant/sheriff's badge/etc's "Why can't I do this when Christmas trees, Santa Clauses and Easter Eggs are so dangerously running rampant?" is that for the reasons law-revolving reasons I stated above, one truly has religious origin whereas the other exists for the sole purpose of exploiting Americana.

A cross can be turned into a crucifix by depicting Jesus' ridiculously bloody, tattered, gore-spattered husk. There are very, very few churches that I as Jew have actually seen displaying a Roman torture-device-being-implemented crucifix as just brightly brassed and gold leafed plus signs.

Knowing that, for a lack of a better word, an "official" Magein David has no supernatural ideology applied to it, whereas a scroll Yud, or nine-placeholdered candelebra do, doesn't change for me the fact that I believe it is actually the strength of these simple objects that has kept them banz0red from the eyes of farmer Joe.

I see it as a priveledge that symbols of Judaism; your most basic geometric shapes, have been recognized as such and not pimped out by supersized Easter Egg Americana ('cept for gelt.) I also feel, and you may disagree with me, that along the lines of Americana, it helps reinforce seperation ideologies when viewed as a, key word here, contemporary religious object -- How much new spotlight holy taboo is there over a reoccuring commercial holiday theme?

That isn't to say that I don't acknowledge some of the undertones of how different shapes and forms of iconoclastic taboo have been brought into our above mentioned contemporary culture to meet popular demands.

There are non-sell out European Jews as well.

And the European Jews you mentioned who have been misled, enlightened, changed, jaded... Whatever you want call it by supposed money-talks Christians who have turned them into "look at our funds!"-flaunting evangelists mirror, in my belief, the exact same exact sort of analogy that pops us here, in the good ol' demented U.S. of A. -- The mentality I commented on above and have said why at least for me, brings me that much closer to realizing my own identity. We don't prostletyze as Jews for the most part, and aside from some incredibly finite sects, do a damn good job at refraining from such. This larger sect you're talking about is called Christianity. Or at least not Judaism, which you've acknowledged. I don't see being holy in the Holy Land as a problem until unholy acts are perpetrated defined by 21st century Oxford English dictionary.


Incidentally, sociological research suggests that there was no Exodus in history.

I'm glad, infinitely, to have had this, along with a lot of other yeah-no-shits pointed out by my old rabbi.

[Back]

A cross can be turned into a crucifix by depicting Jesus' ridiculously bloody, tattered, gore-spattered husk.

Ah, you bring back warm fuzzy moments when my Episcopalian grandparents took me to church with them. Seeing that big bloody Jesus on the cross with visible spikes through his hands and feet freaked me out as a little kid. But the mood under the arches was one of peace and humility, which was cool. And the breakfast at the dinner afterwards was ever better! Poached eggs and strawberry pancakes.

[Back]

I'm actually curious about the entire organization, and people's thoughts on it. I feel somewhat better about my leeriness (is that a word?) about the "charity". Of course, Pat Robertson stumping for anything makes me wonder.

I’d do the same. Tsa’ah already answered that way back. I was surprised to hear there were prostletizers out there trying to convert Jews with the lure of Zionism. Thats well known technique in the advertising world called the “bait and switch.” Caveat emptor.

[Stanley Burrell]

I kinda meant that to mean more of a "why it isn't demonstrated as such publically" because of the symbol discussion.

I haven't had poached eggs since IHOP was invented, or something.

[Back]

I kinda meant that to mean more of a "why it isn't demonstrated as such publically" because of the symbol discussion.

I haven't had poached eggs since IHOP was invented, or something.

Its a good point actually. A cross is very different from a crucifix. I’m not that religious so I always took them one in the same.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm just glad Tsa'ah stopped whining/revising about being wrong.

[Methais]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/DHNowhere.jpg

[Tsa`ah]

Actually, Christians didn't use either the crucifix or the cross as a symbol early on. For one because they were being rather persecuted and for another because crucifixion was (in addition to being just plain terrible) a terribly humiliating death. The cross was a mark of shame for quite awhile. These two reasons are why early Christianity used things like the fish and the pentagram.

My statement was that it was adopted by Catholics and Christians. Constantine wasn't exactly persecuted ... rather hard to persecute a man with an army that demands conversion or death. The late 300s to the early 400s (AD) would be the time frame that the crucifix was adopted .... it was used prior to the founding of the catholic church, in gestures of blessing and often disguised in mundane forms as trinkets and jewelry.


Incidentally, sociological research suggests that there was no Exodus in history.

Reference it. Other sociological research suggests there was an exodus, but the Jews were not fleeing from slavery, rather ending their tenure as mercenaries guarding the northern expanse of Egypt.


The Ottoman Empire was fully portioned up in 1920. The British Mandate of Palestine is what ended after World War II.

I'm fully aware of this. I next time I'll list things in chronological order just so you can follow along. Without the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and without the British not wanting any part of their portion ... Israel never would have happened.

But thanks for pointing out the obvious .... we can count on you to do that, or argue against rational thought.


I was taking it for granted that you were right about the star of David thing, but man, it's not looking so good for you on the historical front.

Again, my bad for assuming you would understand something without a picture ... Have a seat next to Sean.


In any event, it's pretty baffling that you think the cross and the crucifix are interchangeable but not the Nazi star and the medieval star, design-wise.

I think the E pointed that out to me, and I amended my statement. Cross, crucifix ... all the same to me. They're Christian symbols ... the differences between the two aren't beyond my grasp to understand, but those differences are trivial to the discussion that has evolved ... they're both symbols of the Christian faith.

No one has mentioned a medieval star until you chimed in. Are they interchangeable? Enlighten us.

If you want to know where the Nazis got the idea of badging Jews and minorities .... well look to Pope Innocent III and canon 68.

However, the star used by the Nazis ... the star, sans the color, adopted by Israel ... was the Nazi depiction of the image described on David's shield.


I'm just glad Tsa'ah stopped whining/revising about being wrong.

You still haven't pointed out where I was wrong.

Perhaps you believe that if you say it enough it will become true? I'd suggest you slow down. A person that has enough trouble organizing their thoughts enough to tie their own shoes shouldn't expend too much mental energy on things they don't understand ... otherwise you may forget how to breath.

On second thought ... keep it up.

[Latrinsorm]

it was used prior to the founding of the catholic churchThe Catholic Church goes back to the 12 Apostles.
Reference it.http://www.amazon.com/Testament-Bible-History-John-Romer/dp/0805009396
Dr. Romer also has a fascinating series of videos that have the same sort of theme. I think they go by the same title, but I'm not sure.

I had to leave this afternoon for my group meeting and dinner, and it seems the post I'm responding to has vanished in the interim. The only other thing I remember is about the medieval Jewish star: I cite the cover of the Leningrad Codex. Looks the same to me.

There we go.