Which is better?

[JRF52084]

I am curious as to which training path would work better over all when hunting. Would a wizard having 101 ranks in shield and edged weapons do better off then just a pure caster? Or would it be better to take those ranks away and place them in spells? Any input into this matter would be helpful. Thanks.

[Gan]

I always had better luck with keeping wizards as pures using runestaves.

[AestheticDeath]

Pre-cap I would say runestaves as well. Get your CS up there, and your DS from all the circles. Unless your having trouble warding things, I would single in each sphere.

[JRF52084]

The wizard has just under 7.9 mil xp. I usually use 519 to hunt mostly then go to major fire. With 79 spells in the major circle his CS is just alittle over 500. Will his DS drop any more if I take away the shield and weapon to add to spells? Also will he be able to parry/block attacks as good?

[Gan]

I would think his parry/evade would be better.

Look at your magical skill ratio (skill to level). You'll want anywhere from 9:1 up. As old as your wizard is, I'd say 11:1 ratio along with all the spells you can wear, would make you rather untouchable unless you get disarmed.

I've never converted a wizard from shield/ohe to staff so I couldnt attest to a rise or drop in DS. I will say that I converted an empath from shield/brawl to staff and saw a drop in DS - even at a 10.5:1 ratio. I'll be converting back this May. ;)

Not to mention the DS bonus add from ohe/shield enchant levels are twice what you'd see from a runestaff enchant DS add since runestaff enchant bonus only counts half to DS. (so if you used a 10x shield/weapon then its awfully hard to compare because of the high add to bonus)

[JRF52084]

Thanks, seems the wizard will be kept shield/ohe and just slowly work on getting more spells and stuff.

[Stanley Burrell]

HEY YOU GUYYYS!

[Artha]

The way it works is every 8 magic ranks is equivalent to 1 rank of THW. So you'll definitely lose DS going to runestaves, but you'll also get more magic ranks so you'll be better offensively to balance it out. I don't know anything really about viability though.

[Stunseed]

I'd never my change my Wizard from OHE/Shield.

[FinisWolf]

I personally like the .5x shield (later to be 1X) pure wizard over the runestaff pure, and I prefer that same .5X shield (laster to be 1X) pure wizard over an OHE/shield wizard, but that is my preference.

In this way I get my DS, and I get most of my magic ranks for spell circles and other magic ranks.

Finis

[TheEschaton]

My capped cleric went from runestaves to Brawl/shield last fixskills, and he's untouchable now. The rise in DS was significant, as far as I could remember (maybe something as much as +40 or so?). Nothing in OTF can touch him unless he gets disarmed, knocked down, and stanced down all at the same time...all while in RT.

-TheE-

[Gan]

My capped cleric went from runestaves to Brawl/shield last fixskills, and he's untouchable now. The rise in DS was significant, as far as I could remember (maybe something as much as +40 or so?). Nothing in OTF can touch him unless he gets disarmed, knocked down, and stanced down all at the same time...all while in RT.

-TheE-

My capped empath is going back to brawl/shield for that very reason. I can honestly say I've given the runestaff route an honest effort this past year and my conclusion still stands that it sucks for one not steeped in elemental magic.

Chica's plan that I was initially on (accepting a few personal modifications) gave me almost complete invulnerability unless I was tag teamed by specific Ithzir/Griffin manuever attacks combined with a Seer empathic dispell.

[Meges]

Runestaves suck for three reasons:

-Lower DS, which means otherwise annoying maneuvers that lower your DS can get you killed.
-No melee attack ability.
-If you get disarmed, you're screwed.

With Sword and Board:

-If you get disarmed, so what. You still have your shield.
-Even with a relatively low AS you have another method of attack.
-Your DS will be significantly higher.

I'm sure there's more, but those are my main considerations. It is not even a sacrifice to train this way, because you gain so much more wielding a weapon.


Meges

[TheEschaton]

-Even with a relatively low AS you have another method of attack.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't use my brawl/shield as an attack option. I just use it for defense purposes, and brawl because it allows open hand bonus to certain spells.

-TheE-

[JRF52084]

What spells for wizard are better with an open hand when casting?

[TheEschaton]

I was talking more about clerics than wizards. ;) Wizards blow...at least mine do.

[Stunseed]

What spells for wizard are better with an open hand when casting?

Wizards don't channel, so it doesn't matter. Keep a blade in hand for the parry bonus ( if still applied ).

[Askip]

I changed to a runestaff when they were released and I have never regretted it, the freed sword/shield TPs are just too much to pass up.

I use a 4x runestaff and carry a spare in OTF, but 2 ranks of CMAN Disarm and Haste will stop most disarms or help you get the staff before the mob does.

:D

[Jolena]

I've done both routes. I have a wizardess that is a pure runestaff user, and a empath that used to be a pure runestaff user, but now is a shield/brawl empath courtesy of Chica's advice (with a few minor revisions as Ganalon expressed). I find there is benefit in both, but my wizard will never be able to be as strong defense wise as my empath is. There is a lot more diversity for my empath than my wizardess, as well.

[EricosIV]

I think a few of us are off track abit on what profession we are talking about.

Wizards.

Our DS is going to blow with either or options. I agree although a sword an shield are better DS - regardless of profession. Just wizards get alot of extra DS from spell ranks trained over a certain level. (I.E (913) gains an extra 1+ DS every extra 2 spell ranks over (913),(507),(905) a few more.) I'll try to make this clear an upfront in my own opinion. If your going to take the sword and shield route I feel your going to gimp the wizard for the magic side. War Mages I feel were left in the past the TP advantage of not using them in physical things puts the pures at an advantage. In GS3 my wizard was trained for BRIG/Edged/Shield combo an it actually worked very well. After the switch to GS4 that was almost impossible training method-for-a-wizard. The runestaff has its downfalls stated before in this thread. Yet, some advantages don't bother me I hunt Stronghold with my wizards an that's 10+ train critters over my head. The only time I really get killed is the damned stone fist or boil. My wizard over trains in spells almost 3x an racks up enough spell DS to make up for some of the DS lost in a runestaff. Keep in mind a wizard is only required to be in an offensive stance for less then a second. (STANCE OFF - CAST 908 - STANCE DEF with no RT delay.) As the runestaff gives no offesnive stance DS bonus getting caught in that stance is deadly. A bad downfall. The fact I hunt things over my head effectivly with many more spell ranks under my belt then any War Mage. I RECOMMEND a runestaff completly-as-a-wizard.

Just my opinions an a few thoughts.

:thinking:

Ericos

[Meges]

I changed to a runestaff when they were released and I have never regretted it, the freed sword/shield TPs are just too much to pass up.

I use a 4x runestaff and carry a spare in OTF, but 2 ranks of CMAN Disarm and Haste will stop most disarms or help you get the staff before the mob does.

:D

My wizard can go both routes because he's a pure and a "war mage," but I still refuse to use a runestaff; even though I have some really nice ones. There's just too much of a noticeable difference and risk when I swap mid-hunt from a sword/board to a runestaff. The difference is painfully significant. Granted, for RP flair and the spirit of what a wizard should be, the runestaff is nice, but I'm sorry, utility comes first in my book.


Meges

[Meges]

I think a few of us are off track abit on what profession we are talking about.

Wizards.

Our DS is going to blow with either or options. I agree although a sword an shield are better DS - regardless of profession. Just wizards get alot of extra DS from spell ranks trained over a certain level. (I.E (913) gains an extra 1+ DS every extra 2 spell ranks over (913),(507),(905) a few more.) I'll try to make this clear an upfront in my own opinion. If your going to take the sword and shield route I feel your going to gimp the wizard for the magic side. War Mages I feel were left in the past the TP advantage of not using them in physical things puts the pures at an advantage. In GS3 my wizard was trained for BRIG/Edged/Shield combo an it actually worked very well. After the switch to GS4 that was almost impossible training method-for-a-wizard. The runestaff has its downfalls stated before in this thread. Yet, some advantages don't bother me I hunt Stronghold with my wizards an that's 10+ train critters over my head. The only time I really get killed is the damned stone fist or boil. My wizard over trains in spells almost 3x an racks up enough spell DS to make up for some of the DS lost in a runestaff. Keep in mind a wizard is only required to be in an offensive stance for less then a second. (STANCE OFF - CAST 908 - STANCE DEF with no RT delay.) As the runestaff gives no offesnive stance DS bonus getting caught in that stance is deadly. A bad downfall. The fact I hunt things over my head effectivly with many more spell ranks under my belt then any War Mage. I RECOMMEND a runestaff completly-as-a-wizard.

Just my opinions an a few thoughts.

:thinking:

Ericos

506 +

410/912 +

stance off +

1 second RT from Ambushing a leg so the critter can't get up +

repeat on any other critters in the room +

they likely can't touch you at that point =

the way to go.

What's that, ~5 critters?

= 518.

Although, it's a little different in OTF with constructs.

Regardless, I've always gone the route of meshing the pure path with the war mage path (I use "pure" and "war mage" loosely), but at this point, I have the best of both worlds;

a war mage with the ability to very effectively use magic.

Or, a pure able to effectively swing an edged weapon.

Eh, whatever.

To each their own.

I used a combination of the two before I was capped, and now I fully use both skill-sets, but whatever.

I didn't have the option of a runestaff "growing up."

DS has never really been a problem of mine and I'm not sure why your's blows.


Meges

[Stunseed]

< Regardless, I've always gone the route of meshing the pure path with the war mage path (I use "pure" and "war mage" loosely), but at this point, I have the best of both worlds >

My Wizard never swings, though he could if I wanted him to. He is fully trained for a runestaff, but I have gear designed for him that is just too much not to pass up. I compete openly with over mages my train, and if taking my DS into consideration, is more viable.

[EricosIV]

506 +

410/912 +

stance off +

1 second RT from Ambushing a leg so the critter can't get up +

repeat on any other critters in the room +

they likely can't touch you at that point =

the way to go.

What's that, ~5 critters?

= 518.

Although, it's a little different in OTF with constructs.

Regardless, I've always gone the route of meshing the pure path with the war mage path (I use "pure" and "war mage" loosely), but at this point, I have the best of both worlds;

a war mage with the ability to very effectively use magic.

Or, a pure able to effectively swing an edged weapon.

Eh, whatever.

To each their own.

I used a combination of the two before I was capped, and now I fully use both skill-sets, but whatever.

I didn't have the option of a runestaff "growing up."

DS has never really been a problem of mine and I'm not sure why your's blows.


Meges

Well, I am sure when I reach capped I will think just like. Until then most of us didn't grow up in GS3 with 919 as an option all the time. So I can see how you never had a DS problem growing up. Once GS4 was rolled in you were prolly leveled enough so your DS was already pretty darn high. I was still in my 20's-30's when it was rolled in. I had DS problems left an right.

An by blows I meant compared to other professions wizards do not dominate DS.

Ericos

[Things2Come]

Personally, I would go 1x Shield, 2.5x Spells as a wizard, and you'll have plenty of DS and very few issues.

[Ignot]

Think a THW mage is possible to cap?

[TheEschaton]

From start to finish? I don't see why not - the main problem with THW users is lack of DS, wizards are most equipped to deal with that.

Just get a claid and haste. Maybe pick up enough multi opps to open mstrike 3 targets in swarms. The best defense in the case of a THW would be a fast offense.

Just roll him/her as a giant.

-TheE-

[AestheticDeath]

or Elf

[Meges]

Well, I am sure when I reach capped I will think just like. Until then most of us didn't grow up in GS3 with 919 as an option all the time. So I can see how you never had a DS problem growing up. Once GS4 was rolled in you were prolly leveled enough so your DS was already pretty darn high. I was still in my 20's-30's when it was rolled in. I had DS problems left an right.

An by blows I meant compared to other professions wizards do not dominate DS.

Ericos

I fail to see where you're having issues. Tactics maybe? I have younger wizards as well, and I do not have these problems. I have two fairly young wizards in Platinum and one semi-young in Prime.

Also, critters had higher AS's in GSIII so 919, while nice, wasn't as much of a boon as you make it seem. Plus, wizards did not have the increasing benefits of spell ranks when it came to spells like 913, 905, 503 etc. as it relates to DS. So, I fail to see your point there as well.

Finally, you don't need to explain to me what you meant by "blows." I won't tell anyone.


Meges

[Gnomad]

Granted, for RP flair and the spirit of what a wizard should be, the runestaff is nice, but I'm sorry, utility comes first in my book.
Seriously, what wizard would ever be caught dead using a sword?

http://imgred.com/http://www.filmposters.it/imgposter/grandi/gandalf.jpg

[StrayRogue]

Yes, my wizard made it to 30 with a stave.

[Drisco]

It's really viable ethier way. I had a wizard at 25 trains he Polearmed 1 rt Flared Lance. Search for your prey E-wave,Call Wind,Tremors (Your choice) Offense swing swing swing, I usally never got touched and if I did it wasnt anything major, Now maybe as he got older he would see some problems. But I really dont know he died.

I now have a level 31 wizard runestaff I can hunt fairly good I have those days were I die like 3-5 times but that doesnt happen often.

IMO I would Go Swinger.I like having the advantage of swinging faster than any rogue or warrior and them being jelouse.

Both are viable Both have their up's and down's Both Work.

[Necromancer]

Having done runestaff for a sorcerer for the last 50+ levels, I have to say that sword/board is unnecessary even at the highest levels. If you die from low DS as a pure, it's going to be either a disarm or FoF. In the case of the latter, your sword and shield isn't going to help much as DS percentage rapidly drops from FoF. If it's the former, you have Wizard Shield as a backup (which is much more viable than WoF for other pures due to the smaller mana cost and haste keeping your RT from maneuvers pretty low), and you have enough disabling spells that can prevent a disarm from even being attempted. Why spend thousands of extra TPs on a sword and shield instead of simply adjusting your tactics?

Nab extra mana and some lores. Some Earth Lore will help your Boil disable half the room with each cast. Air lore will make your haste godly when you do manage to be disarmed. Fire lore will immolate half your targets on one cast. Plus they're far more interesting and have additional benefits; unlike sword/board.

[Drisco]

Lores can do all that? I thought lores were still a joke.

[StrayRogue]

Lores have a much more tenable bonus to Clerics, Empaths and Sorcerer's. They really aren't worth, IMHO, for wizards.

Personally, my wizard uses the points he would have spent on lores on tripling spells.

[Drisco]

Okay heh cause thats what I was doing. Thought I might have missed the memo that lores were worth it now.

[AestheticDeath]

Nab extra mana and some lores. Some Earth Lore will help your Boil disable half the room with each cast. Air lore will make your haste godly when you do manage to be disarmed. Fire lore will immolate half your targets on one cast. Plus they're far more interesting and have additional benefits; unlike sword/board.

Can you post some logs of boil or immolation hitting more than one target at a time? Or were you talking more along the lines of minor/major fire bolts?

[Drisco]

Doesnt Immolate like Hit one target and continue to burn them?

[GuildRat]

yea, but lores affect how long they burn

[Ignot]

I remember someone on these boards posting some logs with what immolation can do with fire lore. I cant seem to find it but it was pretty bad ass.

I hate lores but do it for RP purposes with stone fist. other then that i would agree that spell ranks are better then lores.

[liquiddrool]

Here is the immolation thread:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=22624&highlight=immolate

[Askip]

Another benefit of a runestaff is the empty hand. The loss of DS when stowing a blade or shield to gather loot or use a wand was annoying at best and sometimes dangerous.

:D

[Drisco]

Does having 1 or 2 empty hands really effect any wizard spells in anyway.

[Meges]

Another benefit of a runestaff is the empty hand. The loss of DS when stowing a blade or shield to gather loot or use a wand was annoying at best and sometimes dangerous.

:D

The loss of DS is minimal and still comparable to using a runestaff. Stow your runestaff or get it disarmed and see how nicely your DS holds up.


Meges

[Bobmuhthol]

Except you don't need to put away your runestaff when you're in a hunting ground since you have a free hand. Obviously having no equipment yields a low DS.

[Meges]

Does having 1 or 2 empty hands really effect any wizard spells in anyway.

Not in the way that I'm understanding your question, no. There are two spells where it does matter what you're holding or not holding that can affect the spell. Mainly, Magic Item Creation and Enchant. I guess Call Familiar does as well if you're using a talisman. Eh, Charge Item is another one. Blah, so is Floating Disk for that matter. Well, gee, so is Elemental Blade... Okay, I guess it does matter, but only for utility spells.


Meges

[Meges]

Except you don't need to put away your runestaff when you're in a hunting ground since you have a free hand. Obviously having no equipment yields a low DS.

Which is my point. Losing your runestaff will be more damaging for you than losing a weapon when you still have your shield in hand.


Meges

[Drisco]

No heh more along the lines of attack spells like boneshatter and what not.